1.2 Million to Lose Unemployment Benefits Today
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Sun, 02/28/2010 - 6:18am (303 comments)
in
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Nice to have the record.
Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) is gonna be one popular guy amongst 1.2million unemployed when they show up at his doorstep. Hey Jimbo stick to your principles of "tough shit" to the unemployed US Ctizens.
"In a colloquy with Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Sen. Jeff Merkley, a freshman Democrat from Oregon, was pleading for Bunning to drop his objection, when the Kentucky Republican got fed up. “Tough s—t,” Bunning said as he was seated in the back row, overheard by the floor staff and others in attendance." rawstory
i wonder just how many people are thinking"this will get them looking for a job,the lazy bums"?
rps wrote:
He doesn't care - he is on his way out [he was volunteered to retire]. He's throwing as many
around as he can on the way out - this one just happened to land in a pretty sensitive part of the machine.
rps wrote:
I believe Bunning has already announced that he is not running for re-election. So he doesn't really care what voters (or other Senators) think.
Who needs unemployment benefits when cc's are ramping up with 0% for 12 mos. and automakers offering 0% for 60mos in the cycling of debt into perpetuity.
the senator is so lucky that ky has no ue.
gabyjan wrote:
I'm sure all the Republican Senators congratulated him on his courage and wished they had the same backbone.
Rajesh wrote:
Voters living on UE benefits don't care up to the next check. Politeness is off the table when people are hungry and homeless.
rajesh
more than likely and thats all im saying.
This plus squatting
99 WEEKS 
Stop the checks and it will be 
for evey one
Critical checks
About 11.5 million people currently depend on jobless benefits. Nearly one in 10 Americans are out of work and a record 41.2% have been unemployed for at least six months. The average unemployment period lasts a record 30.2 weeks
The unemployment rate, which now stand at 9.7%, is expected to rise in February as snowstorms in many states disrupted the economy and stalled hiring.
While unemployment benefits now run as long as 99 weeks, depending on the state, not everyone will receive checks for that long a stretch if the deadline to apply is not extended.
Those extended benefits are vital, experts said. While the economy is slowly recovering, hiring is expected to remain slow in coming years. The unemployment rate is expected to remain at about 10% this year, according to the White House Council of Economic Advisers, and won't fall back to its 2008 level of 5.8% for another seven years.
"Those benefits will expire, but the need to heat their homes and put gas in their cars doesn't expire," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., on Friday. "Those benefits will expire, but the need to take their medicine, or support an aging parent, or take care of their children doesn't expire
More than a million set to lose jobless benefits in March - Yahoo! Finance
Time to divest senators of their entitlement (retirement) packages.
rps
how?
I saw a guy on TV the other night that made an interesting point... His point was that the difference between the USA and 3rd world countries is that American's generally trust the government. We generally believe that if you play by the rules, the system will allow you to succeed. Effectively American's believe the system is fair, not perfect, but overall fair.
Once a large majority of the populate stops believing in the system, folks stop working together and things go to hell fast...
It's an interesting perspective.. Almost all of the moves that government has made recently (TARP, Stimulus, KSM trial in NYC, mortgage mods, credit card protections..) breed distrust of the government that crosses party lines..
So cutting off 1.2M folks? I can hear these folks now "Garbage government, they have billions for bankers but can't get me $395 for food. A$$holes! I'll never trust them again."
Then the doorbell rings.. "US CENSUS! Can we get some information!"
On this whole concept of 'long term' unemployment insurance benefits... I remember talking with a guy from Wisconsin... a prominent supporter of then Gov Tommy Thompson's 'Wisconsin Works' - their version of Welfare To Work... Wisconsin was the pioneer of welfare reform & Thompson its architect. Clinton later modeled his national effort after this [or more accurately accepted the GOP congressional model jammed down his throat]...
Any way the guy I knew was a big fund raiser for Tommy T and was gloating over how successful W2W was.
I remember asking him...
"So what happens when we have a decade like the 70s again? Damn few jobs and lots of unemployed? What happens when they blow through their unemployment and there aren't jobs and there isn't welfare or any other safety nets to catch them? What we gonna do then?"
He got all huffy saying something like ... "That will never happen ever again - its different now - information technology and globalization makes it completely different - stop being a hold over from past failed approaches... blah blah blah." Seriously - I got a tongue lashing.
I'd love to follow up with the guy now but I kid you not [gospel truth]... he's effectively unemployed after the foundry he worked for was bought by a hedge fund and 'made lean' - his role of sales mgr became redundant. He'd say he wasn't unemployed - rather took early retirement [in his late 50s - not to medicare age yet]... but I know better.
I think this whole issue is going to get nothing but interestinger and interestinger all next year going into the election - especially seeing it isn't only blue states with high unemployment.
fal to pa
"because the senate did not act" now i wonder why? to give more money to the banks? or because they knew/know the ship is sinking and they really need the money more?
*rps
how? *
Guillotine?
longwaver
i dont trust the federal government, and not sure about the state and local governments.
Hope PA has 99 weeks when my day comes which should be soon rumblings are getting very loud! Orders are WAY up since NOV but we are still missing goals by a million or more each month. Cant last for much longer. SUCKS to be a slave!!
rps wrote:
Just pulled one of those out of the mailbox yesterday... good morning, commentariat!
Had to run get milk for the sleeping wife and daughter...just a beautiful morning here in Houston, why it's almost California weather!
Seriously, kind of day that makes for
fal to pa wrote:
a million or more what. units or dollars?
what sector?
gabyjan wrote:
"Plan A is to be the last man standing as peak resource extraction stalls growth and debt unwind takes out all of the countries weaker than yourself first. In preparation, borrow as much money as possible from your competitors knowing you will default and they will hurt most. Use your reserve currency status and control of the largest financial institutions to pull forward phantom future wealth. Use the money to build the world's strongest military with bases near the world's remaining oil reserves, and to keep your citizens just happy enough not to threaten your power. When the unwind occurs, scoop up the resulting deflated resources with force or cash to breath new life into your domestic economy.
If plan A fails, have plan B ready to launch a massive nuclear attack on the most heavily populated consumers of the natural resources you need.
Divert everyone's attention from the real plan with a war on terror, a war on drugs, mock fights between members of the same but differently named political parties, and with promises of great health care and green jobs. Don't worry about climate change because your models tell you the unwind will solve the CO2 emmision problem and because your own geography will be least impacted."
--KB
gabyjan wrote:
I trust state and local even less - they are bought off cheap.
gabyjan wrote:
Distrust is a real problem that's growing.. The TEA party is a direct result. We are going to need a leader that rebuilds the US government into something that folks can trust. 2010 and 2012 are going to be very interesting elections.
The healthcare debate seems to more about trust of the government than healthcare. Must be really torquing the liberals off. They took power at exactly the wrong moment to grow the government. In fact they more they try to grow, the more they feed the distrust and dismantle their own power. Talk about at catch-22.
na drywit the guillotine is too swift and they need to look back and say oH GOD i wish i hadnt done that! sometimes death is just to nice for some.
Once upon a time the french emulated the Americans. Perhaps we can return the favor. Vive la République.......
dryfly wrote:
It's going to be a rough ride for all incumbents...
WHY don't we say that anybody on extended benefits is eligible for a wage subsidy equal to their unemployment check (if the employer had increased headcount and labor cost from a baseline)? It wouldn't cost taxpayers any more, it'd cut the number of long-term unemployed in danger of losing job skills and becoming unemployable, it'd put more money in their pockets, and would create jobs (less than 1:1, since some of those jobs would displace existing workers).
adornosghost wrote:
It sounds like the Greeks are the best prepared to deal with this crisis.
dryfly you have a point there banditos in training
Gaby howbout a check for healthcare hostage deal
? They WILLL send out the checks have to, but at what price??
energyecon wrote:
Incumbents will have to show that they are trying to dismantle the government but don't have the power. "Send me back so I can keep working to kill the beast" and such...
That's possible for republicans that are voting no. (most folks that I know would be happier if congress went out of session for 2 years vs. making things worse), but probably impossible for Dems since Obama won. If McCain had won, DEMs would have had something to work with.
Rajesh wrote:
Soros is proving that.
benamery21
what an take money away from the banks! go and wash your mouth with soap and do not rinse.
fal to pa
but will the checks be any good
So Bunning's objection was simple selective-deficit hawkishness?
That shit doesn't hold water. Before he even thinks about ending the safety nets, they need to be thinking... Cut off Fannie, Freddie, AIG, the IMF, the FHA and the FDIC.
Close about 699 of those overseas bases and cease combat operations in these various dusty shitholes that are costing us roughly $10 million for every turrist killed.
Shut down the DHS and the TSA, again at $10m per arrest, especially when, at the behest of the State Dept., they explicitly allow a Nigerian we've been warned about, without a passport or luggage, to purchase a ticket to Detroit in cash and get on the plane.
Bunning's priorities are fuckered.
What's the problem? It isn't unemployment benefits, it is unemployment insurance. Surely it is modeled after the FDIC which has never cost the taxpayers a penny. We'll just ask the remaining workers to pre-pay three years worth of premiums and.... ummmm never mind.
I'm sorry, but people have no idea how politics works. First of all it's not just Bunning, when you see a Senator do something like that consider he has the backing of the Republican caucus. Second, his main objection is that the unemployment extension bill doesn't follow the pay-go provisions. He's also mad because the $15B bill had the pay-go provisions waived. Consider that to be the stance of Republicans.
Why pass pay-go if you give everything a waiver?
longwaver wrote:
Doubtful. How many who are voting no now voted for the TARP et. al.? Review the UE exhaustion stats again and tell me how the play by Bunning works for them again?
longwaver wrote:
Right wing populism has really not worked out very well, if one observes the 20th century. The leaders have been colorful, and did make some trains run on time, but things went down hill from there.
benamery21 wrote:
That's a blast from the past - 70s style - back then we called them 'negative income taxes'.
Problem with it is you have to put ALL unemployed [whether getting benefits or not] on it else only those carrying the subsidy with them get jobs. If two apply and one has the subsidy attached and the other doesn't [say just out of college]... the one without the subsidy might as well not even apply.
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:
Sure they are.. And so is everyone elses. Barack wants $1T healthcare when we are printing money.. literally.. Michelle O. is fighting childhood obesity while people are starving...
Hey maybe Bunning is doing a favor for Michelle O.! Kick start her anti-obesity campaign by cutting off food to kids.. Some of those kids must be fat.. statistically speaking...
Okay, well looking at the newsmedia I see the media doesn't even both to report it truthfully. The Republicans are simply trying to negotiate a bill that fits within PAYGO, and their objection is why do we have this paygo thing and keep waiving it?
But still, its obvious Bunning is simply speaking for the Republicans...
$12T to Wall St and esp the
could have been alot of jobs and a big stimulus for the economy.
Daily Kos :: Comments Unemployment Hits 10.8%, Presidential Approval Drops to 35%
I have been saying for 15 years that the Army needs another division. Maybe now is a good time to repeat that sentiment.
If they have
ink no problem, plus benny has to have a good showing 
feed the masses and all will be good
energyecon wrote:
No doubt the republicans have a hard / long road, but they have a road. I'm not sure what a Dem is going to say to his folks.. Will anyone but hecklers show up at campaign stops? Going to be very interesting...
gabyjan wrote:
My understanding is Bunning is stonewalling to see the bill paid for within the existing budget - with finds appropriated but not yet spent - and that he doesn't object to the extension at all.
The stalled bill would add another log on the fire of unfunded liabilities; there is an existing proposal, now set aside, which pays for extension without any new appropriation.
I think the guy is being bashed for fiscal probity and am sad to see everyone piling on, contrarian that I am.
Bunning suggested they take the funds from the stimulus bill, which has $100B appropriated but not spent. That seems reasonable to me.
longwaver wrote:
Being in the minority is wonderful in tough times - ask the Democratic class of 2006.
YLSP wrote:
It also doesn't look good for the DEMs.. they own both houses and the white house and can't work this out... Basically it looks bad for everyone...
This just another pile of S from our government. The even bigger pile of S is the fact all the money spent By O and team have not produced any real sustainable jobs. Just another Shitty Day in Paradise!
YLSP wrote:
I wonder why he didn't suggest they come from agricultural subsidies? Ya wonder?
The government has $$$ for Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as $$$ to send to Haiti and Chile. but not for US citizens? Charity begins at home.
We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." Abraham Lincoln
longwaver wrote:
Way way worse - orders of magnitude worse.
Re: "fuckered"
Today In WTF: California Assembly Declares 'Cuss-Free Week' - Los Angeles News - LA Daily
California is facing another multi-billion deficit, lackluster schools, and some of the worst roads in the nation, but don't worry -- your state representatives in Sacramento are on the job.
Because when the going gets tough, the politicians find easy stuff to vote for. Like "Cuss Free Week." That's right: The California assembly can rarely come to an agreement on how to save the state money, but it found the time Thursday to declare the first week of March "Cuss Free Week."
The Cuss Police, they come to me in my head...
rps wrote:
George Clooney needs to do a telethon for starving Americans. Maybe Angelina can't adopt a starving American kid (right after she does a commercial to pimp Michelle Obama's anti-obesity campaign)
YLSP wrote:
Shell game. He doesn't want to decrease spending, he just wants to shift which spending is unfunded.
YLSP wrote:
That's a good question. Funny thing is, the Senate apparently wasn't willing to find $10-$15 billion of new revenue.
longwaver wrote:
Americathon II - A New Hope
I think Bunning is a good Senator; at least he appears like his positions don't default to "Republican lobbyist talking points" when he's in committee. I'm not sure how the parties work... do they simply know who is going to be a "party bootlicker" and toe the party line all the time, especially wrt lobbyists? So they make it so that a majority of their members are basically lobbyist mouth-pieces? Or does it just happen most people good at the political game know they have to be lobbyist mouth pieces without independent thought?
dryfly wrote:
It really is pepsi and pepsi lite. We live in a one party state, and have for 200 years.
There are differences when it comes to workplace, gender, environment, etc, but none when it comes to basic economic and social arrangement.
sportsfan wrote:
We are at the point where the average citizen can watch the news for a few hours and see how nuts everything is. The FEDs have effectively infinite money and can't even get simple things right.. It's sad and people are walking away from the government. Take jobs that pay cash and such.. anything they can do to prevent the government from being connected with their lives.
longwaver wrote:
Take your red sock puppet hat off for a moment... all incumbents...just as 2008 results were not about a wild endorsement of Democratic policies, the GOP gains in 2010 will not be an endorsement of their policies either. Rather, both campaign results will be a rejection of the status quo.
Rob Dawg wrote:
Run the telethon in China and Saudi Arabia.... Help a starving American.. They can't buy your iPhone or oil! Please help now! Dig deep!
Rajesh wrote:
::::::::::::::::::
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]
Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!
We really need dice icons or a roulette wheel...
Million dollars due to missing parts from Asia all over the company, Cant ship units without parts unit volume is down 40% form 2007 but up 25% since NOV. Sector is industrial process
longwaver wrote:
longwaver, you're missing the point.
The problem in the federal government is that there are any Republicans left at all. They should have been exterminated like the vermin they are.
YLSP wrote:
A good start would be to look into the function of Party Whip. There hasn't been much colloquy across the aisle since sometime in the '80s. With the "Contract" years, it was pretty much over. Both houses are far less collegial than in the not-too-distant past.
longwaver wrote:
Revenge of the Saudi
The Bond Wars
adornosghost,
Does it really go that far back? I would be interested if someone wrote a history on that.
I was thinking about it last week. Our founding fathers were a bunch of smart intellectuals who studied philosophy and the other political theories of the day, at least if you read the writings of the Federalist Papers. Could you envision politics today talking about adopting ideas of Montesquieu? I'm sure half of them would object to incorporating ideas that came from Europe.
sportsfan wrote:
No - I think he got it pretty much right on. You don't have to be a tea bagging right wing red sock puppet to see its STILL broken in Washington.
I did this for another board, pre health care summit. Apologies to the old folks here... I'm pretty sure this is Gen XYZ humor...
White House Health Care Summit, WWF Style
Jim Ross and King are doing the commentary.
(Republicans McConnell and Boehner come out, "For the Love of Money" by the O'Jay's)
Ross: King, here's your (sardonically) pals... the Republican Caucus... led by Chairman McConnell and House Leader Bohner...
King: Hah! These guys are great... I thought an Okalhoman like you would enjoy the free market spirit.
Ross; Yes, but not when it comes at the expense of the people.
Lawler: You red belly comm...
Ross: You just watch it... let's hear what they have to say...
(Crowd is booing, the R's are heels in this situation, they are filming in some college town)
Mccconnell: Booooooo to you ... don't hurt my feelings... I'm gonna go home and buy a new car to feel better... shutup!
Boehner: Get jobs, get jobs, get jobs you losers. You want a job... I'll give $100 to whoever is the first one here to shine my shoes!
(Crowd boos)
Boehner: See, bunch of fat lazies! But we didn't come out here for you. We came here to unveil our new and improved health care plan.
McConnell: That's right, and we spent months, and months on it. We locked ourselves up in a room, we got all of our health care industry partners on board... yes, yes, it's true... it was hard work but we did it.
(They open up a briefcase, there's a 1 page plan)
McConnell: You see, smart people like us; we can figure these things out in 1 page.
(Laughing, Reading from the paper)
McConnell: Listen, to the Republican health care plan! It's so simple even you idiots can understand it!
If you're sick, YOU PAY! If you're kids are sick, YOU PAY! If your doctor screws up, YOU PAY!
If you go to the ER, YOU PAY! If you call 9-1-1, YOU PAY!
Boehner: That's right. What the American people want, well, the American people don't want to pay for you!
If you have a pre-existing-conditions, DROPPED! If you have a new-condition, DROPPED! If you get pregnant, DROPPED!
If you get cancer, DROPPED! If you lose your job because your an oaf from North Carolina, DROPPED!
McConnell: That's not even the best part... we also have a concious objections clause... if you want to use taxpayer funds to pay for for abortion, REJECTED! ... if you want to use a Muslim doctor... REJECTED! ... if you have ever masturbated or cheated on your wife... you will be REJECTED from our plan! This nation is going back to its roots; and quite frankly...
(Barack Obama's theme song comes on... "Shaft" (with the Lyrics changed replacing the protagonics with 'Obama'). He steps down the ramp with a mic, flanked by Rahm and Hillary as "secret service")
Ross: Here it is folks, its the audacity of hope! Hold onto your pants the man for the people is here!
(McConnell and Boehner get perturbed and stomp around the ring madly)
Barack: Well, well, well; look at you fat cats. You finally came up with a plan, huh?
It sounds like its not much change... in fact... if I may say so myself... it sounds like you want pain and the status quo. No wonder you can't win any elections.
(He plays to the crowd)
Do you want a plan, that won't drop you?
Do you want a plan, that will cover you?
Do you want a plan, you can count on?
My plan will take everyone, my plan will care for everyone, you will be covered; your loved ones will be covered; and we will provide the best doctors and nurses...
(McConnell and Bohner trying to get Obama to come in the ring)
McConnell: Shut up! You know nothing! You're a muslim... Barack Hussein Obama!
BaracK: Now, now... you don't have to make it personal...
McConnell: You ***** ***** *****
Ross: Oh my gawd! Did he just use a racial slur!
Lawler: It's nothing you haven't said Jim.
(Barack goes ballistic... Rahm and Hillary have to hold him back... but he breaks free)
(Barack jumps into the ring but McConnell and Boehner stomp on him)
(Cantor and others keep Hillary and Rahm occupied)
Ross: There's pure bedlamn in the ring now, it looks like the Republican caucus is going to have their way!
(Out of nowhere Pelosi and Reid jump from the stands, they grab metal chairs)
Lawler: No, No! Where's George Bush!? Where's Dick Cheney! Dick! Grab your shotgun! Dick!
(Pelosi and Reid ambush the GOPers and beat them down with chairs)
Reid gets on the mic.
Reid: I think you fellas, will like this move; I call it the 51-vote-budget-reconcilliation-Neveda 2 step...
He does a little dance and 51 punch combo on McConnell, being held up by Pelosi. McConnell is out.
(Barack takes the mic)
Barack: You haven't felt nothing, and by the way IDIOT, your name is BONER! That's quite inspirational.
Ross: Oh no, Barack; don't do it... no!
(Pelosi and Reid hold up Boehner on their shoulders, Barack takes a steel chair and clothellines him off)
Ross: The teleprompter device!
Lawler: (Cries into the mic), no, we're ruined!
(Him, Pelosi, and Reid smile as the GOPers are still knocked out, they rip up the GOP proposal, and tear it to pieces...)
YLSP wrote:
he's batshit demented, dependent on meds to say 'in the moment'
sportsfan wrote:
It also doesn't look good for the DEMs.. they own both houses and the white house and can't work this out...
longwaver, you're missing the point.
The problem in the federal government is that there are any Republicans left at all. They should have been exterminated like the vermin they are.
I'm not choosing a side.. I'm just analyzing. If you want to live like a socialist, move to San Francisco. If you want to live like a statist find a remote villiage in Alaska.
sportsfan wrote:
They just have simple minds, and are dealing with complex problems, and have a simple story as to how one solves them.
Of course, reality will eventually eliminate them from the gene pool.
thanks, fal
can I call you fal? so valves and stuff in plants like chemical production and stuff like that there
hmmmm........ kinda esoteric, but may point to a developing situation
YLSP wrote:
Most of our founding fathers weren't intellectuals, but they respected those who were intellectuals.
In the current generation of politics, "intellectual" is a diatribe for both sides.
volker the viking wrote:
Maybe that's as good as it gets - senatorially speaking.
dryfly, I never said it was fixed. I did finally get tired of the Republican propaganda on this thread.
dryfly wrote:
age wise, he ranks amongst the younger
that Brown guy really skewed the average
longwaver wrote:
I don't believe you. You spout propaganda and there is nothing evenhanded about it.
sportsfan wrote:
wo? ich kanst nicht gefinden, aber die oder idee ist genau
YLSP wrote:
I would say from Jackson on it does apply. Our landed aristocracy was well educated, embraced the new ideas from Europe at the time, and put together a rather far thinking government at the time. Unfortunately it needed a well informed and educated populace to work, and we obviously have neither.
The Parliamentary system functions best, and no one choses Federalism these days.
Not signifying anything, but I am lost on this thread.
Are you guys Navajo code talkers?
Is there a Rip van Winkle summary version? Don't dare go back to sleep.
It only matters what someone thinks. The reality of suffering people
means nothing to him.
Their thinking is meaningless. They don't count.
It's not as if there was as many as 1 job for every 5 people.
sportsfan wrote:
So maybe I'm a plant from the DEMs to rile up the dem base.. or a republican double agent? It's tricky to decide who you can trust.. Be careful out there!
Anak wrote:
yes
YouTube - Sleeper (1973) - Trailer
energyecon wrote:
The same could be said for 2006. The voters finally rejected Bush's policies after they were shown to be nothing more than padding the bank accounts of the rich.
That took six years. The Allegedly Loyal Opposition wants to see the same thing happen in two years.
longwaver wrote:
and carry your own protection
they'll jump you when you least expect it, best to tell them right off
either you use it or we don't play
sportsfan wrote:
Don't you mean to say - cut pork elsewhere to fund this. Oh on 2nd thought - you're right. New revenue.
tg wrote:
+1
I want an Orb and an Orgasmitron - we are far enough into the 'future' that we should have them by now.
Mike in Long Island wrote:
Like I said up thread - why didn't Bunning suggest maybe the revenue come from ag subsidies... I'm sure Kentucky farmers wouldn't mind sharing, right?
Janet Tavakoli: Washington Abandons Greece: Beware of Geeks Bearing Grifts
dryfly wrote:
Whole thing is silly when you can just print money.. They should just write into every bill that the money will be printed to save time and debate. Call it an efficiency strategy!
Is that the story where he plays the sperm cell or the zygote or whatever?
Anyway, I avoid words like attenuated like the plague until it comes to this sort of stuff. There I said it.
Back to sleep, thanks.
thats not the worst I have been called.
dryfly wrote:
that was a funny scene with woody as the butler passing the orb
dryfly wrote:
No matter how many years pass, an 1100 cc air cooled VW engine will start on the first turn and purr.
99 weeks is enough. ALL those that think .gov should extend benefits are 100% FREE TO VOLUNTARILY pay more on April 15th. I for one no longer wish to be taxed to pay people to do nothing.
sportsfan wrote:
It isn't about taking turns like in Sunday school - its about winning elections - elections fought and won the hard way. Hello Pelosi? Hello Reid? Anyone home?
It's not cutting off of food to kids, but to provide food that isn't HFCS laden or non nutritious junk food which contributes to obesity and long trend heath problems and costs. Cut the racial crap and get real.
tg,
You know what would've helped? Perhaps if we had a standard derivatives market where everytrade was reported to a centralized exchange... hmmm... that might be a good idea... with no exceptions...
Good thing the Fed bought $13 hundred billion of toxic securities.
MayorQuimby wrote:
Clearly the answer to all of our problems is a bill that extends the benefits until each person reaches social security and Medicare age.. Easy peasey! Problem solved!
tg wrote:
EU Demands Greece Act on Deficit as Bloc Crafts Aid Plan - BusinessWeek
30 billion Euros should last a week or two.
dryfly wrote:
While her reelection is not in doubt did you know her constituencies biggest complaint? She's too moderate for their views. Who says representative democracy is dead?
dryfly wrote:
Absolutely. That is all the Republicans care about. Regaining power is the only strategy they have . . . and the country be damned until they do. By contrast, Democrats showed a willingness to support most of Bush's policies. The only time you heard of filibuster back then was when a true rightwingnut was nominated for a judicial post. (Roberts and Alito got through anyway.)
Rajesh wrote:
Yep.. Like the Fannie / Freddie bailouts. They are gifts that just keep on giving!
longwaver wrote:
That is what Bunning is in effect pointing to - the disingenuousness of his argument is he's been as guilty as any of them of doing exactly the same thing. Pork is money spent on your constituencies... valuable private-public investment is money spent on my constituencies.
He threw the
and it hit some pretty sensitive machinery.
adornosghost wrote:
The federalists believed that this goal was accomplished with the property qualification for voting, something like land that taxed out at $20/year. Employees were not allowed to vote because their employer controlled their vote. If you had a mortgage on your farm you could not vote. The War of 1812 with its large summoning of militia troops pushed good enough to fight good enough to vote, and from 1815 to 1830 the vote was extended to all white men in most states. Also at this time presidential electors changed from being selected by the state legislatures to directly by the voters. John Quincy Adams was the last of the old school to be president, and he managed to fail completely. I have been reading a book on the history of the democratic party 1792-1860 and the number of different quotes that could with a change in names be applied to the current situation is astonishing. For example the nativist wing of the tea party is an analog to the American Party of the 1850s (Know Nothings). Ron Paul is running on large pieces of Andrew Jacksons platform (interesting that he is nominally a republican, have there been any earthquakes in the Nashville region, it may be Andy turning over!) So many of the polictical issues we see now can be seen even in the disputes between Hamilton and Madison/Jefferson during the Washington admin. Basically the more you look at history the more you reach the conclusion that a lot of philosophical differences are never resolved just brought up against a new set of facts. And old controversies are examined in the light of the current zeitgeist.
MayorQuimby wrote:
Good thing no one is asking you. Now write your check.
YLSP wrote:
I agree that would be better but as long as the players are too big to fail and have an implicit demand on our monetary structure it may not improve the overall situation. As long as a freaking bet has a claim on my dollars in my cd making 3 percent below real inflation it is still a rip.
John Quincy Adams was ahead of his time.
Idmeier, great post.
What is the rest of the world doing with extended unemployment?
Rob Dawg wrote:
Not surprised - I see the same thing from the right. Remember - I cover red states [besides Minnie & 'Sconsin]. Its the same here 'only different'.
dryfly wrote:
yep.. I'm sure the republicans are picking their battles for specific reasons. The more distrust they spread regarding the government, the more incompetent the government looks, the worse things are for the DEMs.
People will remember their checks were cut off.. They will remember that the DEMs were in charge.. They won't remember Bunning and if they do, the Republicans will ask why stimulus $$ couldn't be used... A program that most American's hate to begin with. Very savvy.
Now, remember - especially you proles - the $15,000,000,000 check that Timmay is handing over to Fat Fannie tomorrow morning is really for your own good. Keeping housing expensive is more important than keeping your families fed. Don't ask why - they got you into it, surely, they're the best team to get you out.
sportsfan wrote:
Ya the Dems only care about governance - right?
They are succeeding in keeping housing expensive?
Gosh, I didn't notice.
......talk about a bunch of hypocrites here! The same posters that have complained about our massive debt are now chiding Senator Bunning? He stands on the unfamiliar concept of "How are we paying for it?" Get a life Folks - it's about time ONE of the "100-esteemed colleagues" put their foot down shortly after a much needed "Pay-Go" bill was passed.
Lets not stand on principle if that mountain happens to be in your backyard.
burnside wrote:
Most European countries don't have a time-limit on the dole (to use the British terminology). So extending benefits is moot.
It is called "burning thru social capital".
We spent a decade burning thru financial capital.
Prior to that, we spent a generation burning thru physical capital.
This is not going to end well.
NorkaWest
thanks for your thoughts
Get my brain around this. 1.2 million are on extended weekly ue, today they sign up for their weekly check, which want get paid, next Sunday 1.2 million drop off the ue roll. This would mean that 1.2 million are no longer counted as being unemployed and drop thru the cracks. NO
lawyerliz wrote:
Not in Florida, most in California.
By the way, If Crist ran for the Senate as an Independent, would you vote for him?
He could get all righteous if it affected the banks,
or as said upthread, farm subsidies, or too many
bases overseas etc, etc. But no He has to get righteous
over the undeserving poor.
anyway they are all scum, reps and dems together.
We can agree on that right?
Bless you, BSR.
Give me chastity and continence, but not yet! -Augustine
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
he had Thos. Jefferson to pull him back to reality. Whom shall our Jefferson be?
unemployment benefits is a symptom of the problem. The elephant in the room that gubermint ignores the undeniable fact of offshoring jobs/industry/globalization/one-way free trade creates immense destablilzation and destruction here. The idiots in charge have a disconnect of the simple formula: people + jobs= taxpayers = government
I don't care what party or non party anybody is.
Depends on who he's running against.
I am going to have to restrain myself from writing in
Snoopy for all offices.
longwaver wrote:
This one hurt the GOPer just as much though - seriously did. Bunning picks a fight with 'unemployed' instead of say - gov't bailout of banks, big agriculture, lawyers - etc. That takes McConnel and Boehner seriously off message.
dryfly wrote:
That is all the Republicans care about
Ya the Dems only care about governance - right?
Clearly the Dems care about winning elections. It's the ONLY thing Repubs care about.
The difference is perfectly obvious in the manner in which the minority works with the majority. The differences will always be vocalized one way or another, but the reality is that governance is more important than politics.
When Bush was President and had 53 or 54 votes in the Senate, how many times did the Dems require 60 to do anything at all? Can you even think of a single example (other than judicial nominations) where the Dems even mentioned the word filibuster?
I agree with you that Washington is dysfunctional. The Tyranny of the Minority has a lot to do with that IMO.
NorkaWest wrote:
Excellent way to state the problem. Unfortunately for the DEMs, liberals implement governments that burn through physical and financial capital to generate social capital.
Bush outplayed them by being spending everything physical and financial on war... Oh the irony...
Talk about a pickle for liberals...
That would go a long way towards explaining the deficit/GDP ratios I'm seeing.
Interesting.
500 years from now Jefferson, Hamilton, and the other founding fathers will still be remembered. Most like Reid, Pelosi, Bunning, etc will all be forgotten. I don't even know who the great "potlical thinkers" of the past 50 years have been. Newt Gingrich? Barry Goldwater? Edward Kennedy?
ldmeier wrote:
.....thank you for this fine post......
"That will never happen ever again -
Another potential motto for the human race, alongside of: How was I supposed to know?
Maybe they should be put on license plates.
Bunning fought against TARP as well, and he fights while on the Banking Committee.
In fact, one exchange I really like is when he was asking Sheila about the whole mandatory prepayments, and how the FDIC doesn't think they will have to take a loan from the Treasury. I believe his response at the end of that line of questioning was something like, "Good luck with that..."
rps wrote:
but many of us including me went along for the ride. The ride is ending and I am
ing
Why bother with more extensions, just make unemployment payments permanent already.
Either that or they will have to keep passing extensions for the next 5-10 years, because that is how long most of these people are going to be out of work.
It it like the silliness with the debt limit. Like the next one we pass has any meaning. Just get rid of it. Waste of time.
volker the viking wrote:
That would be John Adams the Elder. Jefferson died a year after Quincy took office.
He'll probably be running against Rubio. Who is quite insane. I'm figuring ole Charlie will be switching over to Dem soon to run. He can't beat Rubio in the GOP primary, the Teabaggers have got Rubios back. I can't stand the thought of voting for Crist but I will given the choice between he and Rubio.
adornosghost wrote:
One of the good things about peak oil
Hard to top the license plate motto in your town, Pavel, though New Hampshire is also quite good.
longwaver wrote:
I believe this is a precursor to fascism. Combine distrust of government, bad economy, xenophobia and white supremacy, and you come close to 1932 Germany--can Sarah paint?
Our problem as a species is that we never needed to or were able to think more than a year or two ahead. We're in an evolutionary groove. If things are OK for now, why worry?
I have always felt that distrust of government is a
No new :icons: today!
good thing.
That would be John Adams. Q. Adams lost to Jackass Jackson.
Hard to top the license plate motto in your town, Pavel, though New Hampshire is also quite good.
For DC, Greenchutes? Someone I know suggested: Bitch Set Me Up.
Agree with Kristina. Crist is not as bad as Rubio.
Without comment.
"The overwhelming majority of Germans did not seem to mind that their personal
freedom had been taken away.... a newly arrived observer was somewhat surprised
to see that the people of this country did not seem to feel that they were being
cowed.... On the contrary, they supported it with genuine enthusiasm. Somehow it
imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence and an astonishing faith in the
future of their country."
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William Shirer
Fascist America: Are We There Yet? | OurFuture.org
Today, my ad is a money tree.
Mel wrote:
Who cares - can she grow a mustache?
pavel.chichikov wrote:
Pavel! Ahahahahahahaaha . . .(gasp) . . . Ahahahahahahahahahahaha. Heh. Aheh.
I like how he didn't let that small biographical detail get in the way of his subsequent political career. Once a swamp...
Well, she did, and she had help.
longwaver wrote:
Don't you know? 40 votes is a majority now. 51 is a minority.
Whatever happened to making filibusters read the phone book on live TV?
pavel.chichikov wrote:
Famous line from Marion Barry?
pavel.chichikov wrote:
I don't know Pavel, I agree that is a limitation on us but I think the future devolves very quickly from our expectations. TheWisdom of Crowds was an interesting book where the average beats the best minds.
The NSDAP was never popular at all in Berlin, and generally not in Prussia. Fascism in Europe was a largely Catholic phenomenon.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
Grandfather of is personal favorite of the characters in 1776..
YouTube - 1776 The Musical - For God's Sake John Sit Down
I have been watching ads on tv lately, when I watch, as
if they were buffalo and lions on the veld. Some of them
are fun of course. But many are so blatantly pandering.
You deserve, have earned, will feel wonderfully superior if you
buy X. You can't live without it. Hour after hour.
So maybe the conclusion was, I agree, I need it. I will charge
for it. You said I already earned the right to have it? Then,
I don't need to pay, right? I certainly don't need to feel bad
if I don't pay. You didn't say anything about that.
Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.
Was Mosley a Catholic? I didn't know.
Mel wrote:
Palin is interesting.. By 2012 the country will be mostly aligned with her views, but it will be a dramatic inflection point for the USA. I figure by 2012 (and definitely by 2016) we will have the ultimate smack down between socialism and statism. Statism seems to be winning right now.
If American was socialist, the TEA party wouldn't be growing in power.. Fox's rating wouldn't be growing.. People would be looking for ways to hand the government more power and more money since government is the solution and such..
At these inflection points, Palin could be one of the greatest presidents in history or.... a loon that destroys America. Not going to be much in the middle.
Anyone have a coin to flip?
YLSP wrote:
Goldwater for sure... probably folks like Harry Hopkins on the other side. FDR was just the Caesar at the time providing cover for him. Frequently the 'big thinkers' never make it to the top - its their banner carriers that do,
California: "7 Years Without a Recall, 25 Without a Budget"
sportsfan wrote:
dats whad ahm talkinbout
40 votes is a majority... if you're not willing to compromise in order to pass legislation.
Is it not politically criminal to talk about how we need health care reform and then proceed in a manner that doesn't even guarantee success? Perhaps its more like immigration reform... but I'm convinced there's a whole lot more people who think health care/insurance needs reform than immigration\ and is a whole lot bigger issue.
Florida: "Under Water - All But Literally"
I'm all for the extension. As long as the extension cuts payments to the lowest state benefit amount (they differ by state) and rename the program welfare.
The fight over the taxpayer punchbowl was which room it was ladled from; the blue room or the red room. No more, the red and blue drunkards do their elbow bend at corporate headquarters. The punchline: corporate feeds at the taxpayer bowl--snake swallowing its' tail jerk
doug r wrote:
doug r for senator! I want to see some filibustering old men with
reading phonebooks late at night on CSPAN - we could live-blog it here.
sportsfan wrote:
.....lets not forget the LONGEST serving Senator from West Virginia, Robert Byrd.....the King of Filibuster
That's his father.
longwaver wrote:
The efficiency improvements, primarily from community rating provisions, will save about 2 trillion over the same period. In addition, the individual insurance market is collapsing as we speak with 39% rate hikes and plummeting enrollment. Without individual insurance, entrepreneurship will become impossible for most people and small business growth is gone. The healthcare reform is a lot less useful than a broad Medicare expansion would be but it's essential if we're ever to have economic growth again.
D'oh - thank yogi
Still one of best in a damn good musical!
bearly wrote:
Fine point. Is this being discussed at all where it counts? UE compensation should be reviewed - it's going to be around for a long time. We surely don't want people starving.
I'm trying to think of some other slogan for Florida.
. . . but I can't.
"...but it's essential if we're ever to have economic growth again."
You had me going there for a couple of lines.
dryfly wrote:
Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Founding Father quality.
Sportsfan:
Please explain this:
Breitbart.tv » Obama & Dems in ‘05: 51 Vote ‘Nuclear Option’ Is ‘Arrogant’ Power Grab Against the Founders’ Intent
sportsfan wrote:
And they'll keep throwing the
until voters get fed up and throw the incumbents out. Works both ways, though-do they realize they're incumbents too? 
Tragic Kingdom?
Rob Dawg wrote:
Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's not as if the Reps cut deficits or anything when they were
in power. The Rep party left me a long time ago.
longwaver wrote:
The nuclear option in this case was removing filibuster from Supreme Court Nomination, not using reconciliation to pass the tax cuts. That occurred in 2001 and 2003.
Fair Economist, the savings accomplished by any government plan are always some imaginary future date illusion involving stars aligning that never materialize. This is the same thing, promising to tax in the future for benefits today. Complete nonsense. Start over, small, with limited set of goals.
Agree. Agree strongly.
The top of the heap for spending is Wall St and MIC
$12T to Wall St was an easy breezy pass
$700B for military spending and wars was an easy breezy pass
Obama admin and our corptocracy infested Congress has NO WILL to change the status quo so the US economy will continue its over-dependence on Financial capitalism ( asset bubbles, ponzi schemes ) and MIC spending while Americans will get more 'extend and pretend' and kicking of the can down the road....
Florida--Such As It Is
Rob Dawg wrote:
Ya he should be one for sure. Also MLK - I had a very conservative southern friend tell me MLK did more to bring the south back into the union than did Sherman or Grant. Also said the economic rebirth of the south would never have happened had 'those issues' not been addressed. Interesting take on that hot button.
greenchutes wrote:
And? How can people start or grow small businesses when it's impossible to provide healthcare? Nobody with a family or prior medical condition could work there.
longwaver wrote:
You want me to explain why no Senators want to eliminate the filibuster?
Please stop wasting my time.
Bunning is my favorite senator. He essentially told paulson to go fuck himself during the TARP hearings. He's definitely a bit senile/demented at this point though.
I personally side with him, and paygo should mean paygo, with no exceptions. Plus, I'd hate to see my bil lose his weekly checks that supplement his cash income which matches his last job.
lawyerliz wrote:
"Blowing Sunshine Since 1845"
Florida--the cold wet state.
Milkshake made with ripe Peaches we picked this summer. Yummmm might have to spike the next one
bearly, the best I've heard on the subject (IMHO) called for extending health benefits from an existing program - whether VA or Medicare or whatever.
Creating massive new programs works no better in gov't than it does in software.
bearly wrote:
....kinda like promising a chick before an egg is ever laid.
Rob Dawg wrote:
I like Peggy Noonan, though she would be a Founding Mother. I don't always agree with her but she frames issues in the bigger picture.
Peggy Noonan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rajesh wrote:
Yep.. The use of reconciliation is meant to resolve small differences in budgets.. That's it.. To prevent government shut down because some guy wants $200M for some wacky project..
Not to perform other business like supreme court nominations or say massive health care bills...
The internet is a real bitch for public figures...
Black Star Ranch wrote:
How are you paying for those Bush tax cuts, Senator Bunning?
doug r wrote:
If they allow a real filibuster, no other legislation gets done--nothing. Pretty soon that hurts.
bearly wrote:
And besides, the new vernacular is "save or create $2 trillion".
bearly wrote:
Not in healthcare. All the major Western reforms (e.g. Canada, Taiwan) have been accompanied by marked drops in the rate of growth in healthcare expenses.
lawyerliz wrote:
Florida is Indian for 1/2 off sale
50% off housing
An alternate interpretation of the native Seminole meaning for Florida pronounced Flow - Ride - Uh is old white man with prostrate problems riding around in white carts chasing little white ball saying "Uh" when they realize they forgot to put on their depends.
Mel wrote:
Tough times tough choices. Time to get out the
boys.
lawyerliz wrote:
"Starve the beast" developed during the Reagan Administration. Hence he tripled the deficit intentionally. Bush took it to a whole new level, while only doubling the deficit, by adding $5 trillion to the debt.
It's what Republicans do. They pass out free money and mortgage the future. They never even pretended to pay for it.
Saw the original run. Read McCulloch's recent J. Adams bio. Good but glosses over criticism, dismisses the Alien and Sedition Acts as Federalist party dirt, accepts Adams self-serving letters too readily...
JQA was a brilliant progressive, but like his father (and Gov. David Paterson), reluctant to dumb it down to win support, even from his own faction.
lawyerliz wrote:
Liz, be careful what you wish for. I'm staring at the snow on the hills right now after 2 days of rain. I'll report from Disneyland in a couple hours where 62 is the expected high.
Small business can employee people with out providing any insurance. Employees have to get over the simple fact they earn it and it is not free. Or higher pay is the off set and employee pays full cost but the advantage is a group plan. Either way numbers come out the same.
Or two wars, or Medicare part D...short memories.
I agree, on a theoretical level. But we all know that nothing will change for the small businessperson with this administration in terms of the actual costs of healthcare - all that will happen is a gigantic blank check to the insurers, if anything happens at all. They rolled over on single-payer with something like 2/3 popular support.
As time goes on, your relatively solid logic will just sound like a close cousin to Paulson's "Without the bailout you'd have 25% unemployment etc etc..." And I really can't blame the folks that make the association.
The root problem is the absurd costs of healthcare which have never been exposed to anything resembling competition and a market. Who comparison shops hospitals based on cost and quality, on the expectation of just paying straight cash for services rendered? It is just another of many aspects of our society - our security infrastructure, education, corrections - that badly needs a saltwater enema.
Rob Dawg wrote:
Except for "benign neglect"--hasn't worked too well.
sportsfan wrote:
It's what Politicians do. They pass out free money and mortgage the future. They never even pretended to pay for it.
greenchutes wrote:
Small biz is dumping employer funded healthcare benefits - didn't you get the memo? That is my world and believe me - I got the memo.
Mr Slippery wrote:
Our money is illusory so unless we are able to maintain positive illusions about the future no new borrowing (debt money) is started at the base level. Our government does not create the majority of the money.
Fair Economist wrote:
Yes, I am quite familiar with the CDN system. Their cost growth has indeed been cut. The mechanism however isn't widely discussed. To add medical care to deadbeats and immigrants (political asylum grantees) costs are managed by BUDGET LIMITS. That is the only tool government or any institution has to use. Cut budget by X%. Beleive me. I know, from much personal experience. That needs to be communicated very plainly, no flashy powerpoint slides with illusions.
Mr Slippery wrote:
Thank you - not a red sockpuppet but do like to see accuracy.
Try using "Swampland For Sale"
tg wrote:
Right, just another brick in the wall for the worker/consumer - those that are left. Does anyone really think that companies like United Health rallied so hard as the plan fell apart by accident?
Old meme.
bearly wrote:
Yup - public budgetary rationing vs private insurer rationing [via selective premium rating & exclusion]. Pick your poison.
Fair Economist wrote:
Best of luck, FE - you are arguing from fact based premises with people for whom it is largely a religious (faith based) argument...
Mel wrote:
That was probably the whole point.
greenchutes wrote:
Somehow we lost public option as well. Whatever's left is probably pork.
read y'all later
greenchutes wrote:
Sure, the Senate healthcare bill is weak compared to single payer. But: the efficiency benefits from community rating are big; and more importantly they save the individual insurance market. The 15% cap on overhead and profits will hold the insurers to about the situation they are in now; they waste more at present, but they'll gain some from community rating. Plus the cutbacks to the Medicare Advantage corporate welfare programs are a big gain for the country.
The biggest issue with the reform to me is the delays. I'm not sure the individual insurance market will survive until the reforms really kick in in 2013-4. An individual insurance market collapse would put us into a triple dip.
It's clear the country is ripe for a new political party.
- One that works to cut off earmarks.
- One that offers full transparency (can you imagine removing the FOIA exemption from Congress?)
- One not bought off with corporate interests.
I think a barrier to starting a party has to do mostly with know-how of the dirty-muck of politics, fund-raising and the like, etc. I'm convinced if a crop of current Senators or Reps wanted to they could break off the chains of their old party and start a new one.
Oddly enough I think people like Bernie Sanders and Tom Coburn would be an ideal pairing. Its not about ideology but more about how government should be run.
The goal should be the purge of people like Dodd (I know he's retiring) or Corker from our government, people who have no real interest in how we run and only an interest in being corporate tools.
maryann
it means that our ue will go down by said 1.2 million and in march will go down by another 1.million,what about april? may? june?
we'll be down to 5.2 ue. great!!! thats one way of battling it forget jobs just let people drop off the "dole"way to go
burnside wrote:
Is pork - 100% - that's why insurers & providers backed it at the end & 'grassroots' was a no-show. What was left was gov't bailout of insurers, Rx companies & providers - that's 'reform'? Hello?
ll
of course
Here is an interesting article on the collapse of private health insurers...
Daily Kos: A Look Inside the Health Insurance Industry Death Spiral
bearly wrote:
The mechanism has been widely discussed. It's reduction in overhead costs from the Red Queen paperwork race between insurers and providers. There's a secondary effect from shifting healthcare from emergency rooms to more efficient primary/preventive care.
dryfly wrote:
Well, that is something, while not welcome, I feel I can navigate for myself and my family. I can shop if I know what the costs are. Once the government steps in the costs are shifted and go nowhere but up, and services go down.
Look, we have entitlement that are already essentially bankrupt. Get those fixed first, with a credible plan that begins funding mandates immediately, and then discuss new sweeping plans.
FE, I'm relatively ignorant about the 'inside baseball' involved in health care reform, like most Americans, but, like most of them, I occasionally interact with this system.
A good friend recently had a baby - no meds whatsoever needed, the kid literally born 20 minutes after showing at the hospital driving themselves in, no complications at all, out of the hospital in less than 24 hrs (after being stuck in an overflow diagnostic room with 5 other couples, thanks to the fact that the gleaming new hospital was more designed for show than capacity).
The bill to the insurance company and them - fifteen thousand dollars. This isn't uncommon.
Even in a fantasy universe where Congress wasn't 100% beholden to big insurance interests, how could any legislation substantially improve this?
YLSP wrote:
Oh, you mean the Constitutional Party.
Since that one is taken how about: Fedenders
burnside wrote:
They rolled over on single-payer with something like 2/3 popular support.
Somehow we lost public option as well. Whatever's left is probably pork.
One congressman's pork can be a life saver for 45,000 Americans/year. This bill sucks, but all those needless deaths are kinda ugly.
greenchutes wrote:
Want a health care plan right away? Just repeal Medicare and Medicaid. The seniors will be out in force.
Physicians who treat medicare patients will all get a 20% pay cut tomorrow. Combine this with huge rate increases in purchasing health insurance for said physicians and their office workers. Lots of primary care docs are going to close up shop or stop seeing new medicare patients.
What burns me up is the 2% raise federal workers got late last year. Given no increases in SS payments for the first time ever, there was political cover to not give workers (voters) a raise.
Fair Economist wrote:
Please move to Canada and report back to us how wonderful the waits are for marginal services. To get prompt state-of-the-art care CDNs travel south, providing they have the means.
dryfly wrote:
I didn't know any small biz were still providing healthcare benefits to dump. Thought that went out years ago.
But then I haven't been an employee for decades, so what would I know about it?
Fair Economist wrote:
USA provides the umbrella of military protection to Canada and Taiwan. What they'd spend on defense is allocated to socialized healthcare. USA can have fabulous socialized healthcare if we charge "insurance premiums" for countries who'd contract our defense services or pull out.
greenchutes wrote:
I vaguely remember seeing an episode of the Flintstones when I was a kid. Pebbles was being born, and someone told Fred in the delivery room that he had to pay $1,000 for it. The guy who said it was a con artist, because, as we all know, you don't have to pay through the nose for a delivery.
I doubt the Constitution party would ever welcome Bernie Sanders. I'm talking about a party that is full of progressives and conservatives who care to run the government in a better manner. The problem is this country has had partisans for so long...
Very interesting, Kristina.
dryfly wrote:
dryfly, Mr. Slippery, I don't like being on the defense about politicians, but:
Did Carter or Clinton double or triple the debt? The comparisons to Reagan and Bush the Lesser are staggering.
Bush the Elder took the heat for Reagan just as Obama is now taking the heat for Bush the Lesser.
This lady should have had a midwife, & should have had the baby
at home. Could pay for a month's housecleaning instead. Much more
useful.
rps wrote:
Point taken. Let's cut the military budget by 90%. Maybe health care Keynesianism will work out much better than military Keynesianism.
Dumb question for the commentariat:How much of the increase in healthcare insurance premiums are due to increased medical costs versus trying to offset the loss of investment income caused by ZIRP?
We might be looking in the wrong places.
"The problem is this country has had partisans for so long."
Please - this is the exact kind of line used by Bayh as he was rubberstamping Bernanke.
The problem is we don't have partisans - Clinton transparently didn't give a shlt about the safety net for the underclass when he let Newt "reform" welfare, much as the GOP behaved like LBJ in terms of fiscal responsibility when they ran the show '02-'06. It is a total lack of ideology (aside from pandering to oxygen-deprived creationists) that is the problem.
The health insurance sell-out occurred awhile ago. Maybe last April-June timeframe? I remember Obama getting all the insurance companies on board with his reform. When that happened it was clear the garbage sandwich that we're going to get.
Personally I want to see either the pure socialist plan (single payer) or the pure free-market plan (like Denninger). Both of those would provide the change we need at this moment, and if we need to adjust and bring them in than we'll do it when we get that part of the bridge.
We don't even want to start to cross the first bridge! Or someone wants us to think any decision made now is set in stone.
bearly wrote:
Bearly, people wait here. Longer. Difference for les Canadiens is wealth trumps in the US and not always at home.
bearly wrote:
I did too at one time - when I was making a lot of money and was a lot younger. Then two things happened [1] business declined circa 2000-2003 & never fully recovered and [2] my wife had tests in the past that although were false flagged insurers and she was no longer covered [pre-existings 'discovered']... then a similar thing happened to my daughter - injury creating 'pre-existings'. Either we pay a ton for partial coverage [lots of exclusions] or go without.
We were lucky - the wife had good skill set & got a 'regular job' so as to get coverage via her employer. Else we'd be in deep shit. Her employer is now suggesting they might drop insurance for employees.
Many if not most aren't able to navigate this - they are an event away from going BK - it is part of the new normal most everyone will eventually face. I'm just at the vanguard - the front of the wave.
You have to pledge allegiance to the GOP or DEM party first . Partisan means nothing as far as thinking and everything as far as your party.
Liz, I didn't know you were an expert on bonding and licensing of midwives in California. Please share your exciting discoveries.
Once State UI runs out (and one can argue about the actuarial data used to collect premiums), the program to shift to USG payments is no longer insurance. It is welfare. We need a Unemployment Welfare Program, because no insurance pool is left to draw from.
Uh, are we really going to "pull out" if Canada doesn't pay protection? They have minerals we like to consume.
sportsfan wrote:
We can't wait that long. Repeal healthcare to all government "public servants" including Obama, senators, congress, governors, mayors, retirees like cheney (he's to damn expensive), bush senior and junior and their families, the military, etc...
My company had insurance for everyone in a BC/BS pool but with rate hikes many employees could no longer afford their half of the premiums and they dropped out. A month ago BC/BS informed my boss that we had all been dropped because we no longer had enough employees to qualify for the pool. I have an insurance meeting next Thursday to go over the new individual plans that BC/BS is offering us. The cheapest runs about 160 bucks a month (my cost which is half) and the most expensive is 400 bucks a month (my cost). So actual cost is 320-800 bucks a month. The plans are full of copays and have a pretty high out of pocket cost per year. The average employee at our business makes about 9 bucks an hour. Good luck with that.
rps wrote:
Leave the military out of it.
Obviously, I'm not.
Did have a friend in the Northeast who was a midwife.
Did have a friend who (then lived in Md), who had all her
kids at home with midwives.
I assume that Kali has killed midwives with those requirements you
mentioned. Not everywhere. 40 years ago, when I had my daughter,we
didn't have insurance for this and the price was quite reasonable.
At a hospital.
Countries who use midwives for uncomplicated births and drs for
births that may have problems have outcomes both cheaper and better.
sportsfan wrote:
Clinton was [1] lucky - right place right time, see Schumpeter and [2] employed a lot of smoke & mirrors, especially Rubin & the maturity curve. While I don't excuse Reagan nor Bushies at all - I do NOT excuse Clinton either... he was just better at cover up. Reagan and Bushies didn't care - deficits don't matter - yadda yadda.
Carter was just plain unlucky - wrong time & clueless - deer in headlights. Prolly a nice guy though and good with a hammer.
We can do better than the current political monopole made to look like a 'choice'.
rps wrote:
Medicare was a contract with premiums paid by future recipients. An annuity. Big difference. This wasn't simply an unfunded entitlement.
Listen, he meant it as sarcasm. Medicare is socialism. Just try to mess with it and you'll be called a socialist, of course.
Hey, Kristina. Here we are, not-cleaning!!!!
Longwaver says "I'm just analyzing. If you want to live like a socialist, move to San Francisco."
I was at the chinese new years parade last night...didn't see Stalin, Lenin or Mao...
I lived in OC for 28 years, 1yr in hawaii, 1yr in Seattle, 10yrs in Sacramento and 6 in San Francisco....I still haven't seen one socialist...
Please point me to the right bar....
bearly wrote:
Actually it was unfunded - it was pay go from day one and current recipients have nowhere near covered their draw. If they were made to make up for the short coming the premium backlog would wipe almost all out totally. There's your generational transfer in a nutshell.
Yep liz, and I'm trying to work up the energy to at least feel guilty about it.
bearly wrote:
not me and taken out of context
Just give us back our money paid into SS and Medicare with interest and call it even. Everybody pays. Opps, can't do that they spent it.
Clinton, at least, vetoed quite a few spending bills. W only did such on the one occasion when his divine right to torture anyone and everyone with total impunity was questioned (albeit only slightly).
At this point, the legitimacy of the entire apparatus is, more or less, gone, with its only authority in the exercise of police power.
lawyerliz wrote:
If you only pay someone to not clean for you, it would add to GDP.
Ding Ding Ding dryfly. I did a quick estimate of what most that are on Medicare now had payed in using wages over the past several decades. One illness would have them underwater in relation to what they paid in. I am paying for their care now and unless something changes there will be none when I retire.
It's very simple. Tax junk food. Tax McDonald's, etc.
Reduce taxes if the junkiest food becomes healthier.
Use the money to subsidize fresh fruits and veggies and preventative
health care and walk-in clinics.
What we need is more health and less sickness.
dryfly wrote:
Most of my adult life has been choosing "the lesser of two evils."
I'm surely not the only one who has noticed this.
bearly wrote:
Medicare, along with Social Security, has always been a Ponzi scheme.
No one is "entitled" to Medicare because no one "earned" it.
Lobbyist Ben Dover wrote:
Most retiree's have already drawn more than they paid in... if you are more than 5 years into SS then your account is likely zero already. If they were to get paid back less what they've already been paid then THEY'D OWE the gov't.
The actuarial people messed up & continue to mess up. Annuities are expensive - whether private or public.
sportsfan wrote:
Most of my adult life has been choosing "the lesser of two weevils."
sportsfan wrote:
If I can't tell which is more evil - I go fishing instead. You might try that next time. Its a better way to spend the day.
Let us for the sake of argument say that for 50 years you paid in 1000 dollars per year to Medicare. That means you paid in 50K. The first ER visit could easily wipe that out. BTW I'm being very generous with that estimate of pay in.
redacted.
greenchutes wrote:
The charges are outrageous. But - the insurance companies don't pay them. They pay 1/3 or so of the billed amount. This particular problem is why it's become impossible to do without insurance - extortion by medical providers. It's a big problem, and I'd like to see it fixed; but the fact that problems will remain is no reason to refuse other improvements.
"but the fact that problems will remain is no reason to refuse other improvements."
But if the foundation is this rotten - no edifice built on top of it will stand, no matter the cosmetic efforts. For a society supposedly hijacked by "free-market" ideology, it is remarkable just how far from anything resembling such our core industries - health care, agriculture, etc - are.
Solve the ridiculous pricing for medical service in the first place, and the mountain of ancillary crises instantly disappears. Unless, of course, what's really happening is a consortium of special interests and a giant demographic bubble trying to get blood from a stone. And, in the case of individual states' roles in providing Medicare coverage, that stone really is dry.
MayorQuimby wrote:
Penny wise, pound foolish.
How much to extend UE vs... TARP, dual wars, lots of agriculture subsidies that pay farmers to not grow food, and much much more.
Don't forget the $15,600,000,000 check to be written by the taxpayer via Timmay to fat Fannie tomorrow morning, with absolutely zero Congressional review and less than two seconds consideration from our executive leader.
Fifty bucks from every man woman and child - completely automatic, not even news.
Medina sounds like a good VP for the Paul ticket:
Debra Medina, new star of America's right, is firing up the race for Texas governor |
World news |
The Observer
greenchutes wrote:
Analogies don't prove anything. The current system is better than no healthcare at all, for all its flaws, and the reforms are not just cosmetic. How, exactly, will the system implemented by the Senate bill collapse? Healthcare expenditures will remain high - but not beyond what we can afford, for many years at least, and because of community rating costs will be spread widely, so there's no critical point to give way like the individual insurance in the current system.
greenchutes wrote:
"The current system is better than no healthcare at all"
Is the current system of insurance, medicare, medicaid, HMOs etc really better than a strict cash-for-service system? Is it sustainable?
My favorite poster child for the Boomers - Steve Jobs - turned 55 last week. Good thing his kinds of health problems are unique to billionaires, right?
When full-time non-farm payrolls fall under 100 million, does the math change? How about when Federal/State/Muni Receipts fall well under 2 trillion?
YouTube - when the levee breaks/led zeppelin
greenchutes wrote:
On a cash-for-service system, your friend would have had to pay the $15K for an uncomplicated routine birth. And, of course, many people would be unable to afford care. Yes, it's better.
Au contraire, I think if the system were exposed to even the tiniest bit of transparency and competition, hospitals would have a hard time charging 15 grand for ten minutes of semi-expert care and an overcrowded overnight room which wasn't even designed to hold patients. My guess is that you could knock a zero off that bill at the least.
Do you think that the toilet seats and screwdrivers purchased by the military for $500 sell in large quantities at your local Home Depot for similar prices?
lawyerliz wrote:
Reduce taxes if the junkiest food becomes healthier.
Use the money to subsidize fresh fruits and veggies and preventative
health care and walk-in clinics.
What we need is more health and less sickness. "
I say if people want to kill themselves so much the better, therefore legalize drugs, and tax them. (Let operating machinery under the influence still be a crime as it is today.
And don't forget the South American playbook: Don't go out after dark unless absolutely necessary and hire full time bodyguards. Purchase a bullet proof limo with experienced driver if you can afford it. Make inquiries about cost of private fire and police services for emergencies versus using the volunteers available in your area
In my part of the country, dr's are fighting over the sick with medicare. Hense no jobs, no insurance. The quality of healthcare has dropped to thirdworld already.