Note: Not all problem banks will fail - and not all failures will be from the problem bank list - but this shows the problem is significant and still growing.

What's the cure rate?

Dammit, got pigged the second before I posted this in the last thread. Ordinaily I hate to carry over comments, but I happen to feel very strongly about the MID:

If you view the MID as gov't interference with the market, you should be for its elimination.

I am of the opinion that the MID should be eliminated. It is clearly unfair to renters, and effectively rewards people for taking on debt. If anything, there should simply be some sort of standard deduction for monthly/yearly housing expenses (say, for example, $750 a month), whether rent or mortgage payments, and leave it at that. That way, everyone is covered, and there is no added incentive for taking on extra debt. Of course, since this is both equitable and sensible, it is clearly politically unfeasible.

Nemo wrote:

So when do we start listing non-problem banks instead?

Nemo!

In answer to your question: NCUA 

Dawg-

regarding RDN...that's only a $2000 bet.....

Ciao
MS

Dad tell me the story about the age of strong, healthy banks again, you know before the dark days and zombie banks.

MS wrote:

Dawg-

regarding RDN...that's only a $2000 bet.....

Those are "contracts" and don't cost the 5¢ each shown in the price.

February 23, 2010

"Greece’s issuer-default ratings have been lowered by Fitch Ratings on the nation’s four top banks to two steps above junk, with Fitch saying that the banks’ already-weakening asset quality and profitability will face even more pressure now, The Wall Street Journal reported Feb. 23. Fitch cut to BBB the long-term IDRs on National Bank of Greece SA, Alpha Bank AE, EFG Eurobank Ergasias SA and Piraeus Bank SA."

As I search weekly the updated surferdude (hope I got that HT right) spreadsheet and accompanying CR story, I realize how far I"ve moved from the most common news sources. MSM sources are so far behind on this story that they are probably best thought of as a trailing indicator.

The Maim Stream Media is clueless at best, and now the lubricant known as advertising is going away...

whaaaa?

please explain....(no coffee yet)

edit: Ok got it...hmmmm coffee

Ciao
MS

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!:

Derivative Contracts by Maturity**
Interest rate contracts Q4 '09 v Q4 '08
...................................... < 1 year 80,979,677 58,618,112 +38.1%
..................................... 1-5 years 33,638,254 47,456,432 -29.1%
..................................... > 5 years 26,146,311 36,868,247 -29.1%

same here noob

Re: "... and the FDIC might have to borrow from the Treasury in the future."

Is that good for the yield curve and will that help banks offer higher interest rates?

Vonbek777 wrote:

one of those bad boys who like to be spanked

how much does that cost?

Rob Dawg wrote:

Derivative Contracts by Maturity**

Ut-oh. For help with these numbers, be sure to contact you're nearest astronomer.

Depends on who is doing the spanking...

People are not worried about the FDIC or the recovery it seems:

Consumer confidence falls sharply - Yahoo! News

I'm thinking there might be an opportunity for some, sort of a small business, maybe bigger depending on the client

Doc Holiday wrote:

Consumer confidence falls sharply - Yahoo! News

Yeah, the article says that consumers may not be feeling the recovery.

Newsflash: There is no recovery other than in stock prices.

We worry about the DIF dirty lucre being there, but what difference does it make when you make up the rules as you go?

CR's graph shows that they haven't been at the statutorily mandated 1.15% minimum since Q1 '08.

Heckuva job Sheila. We're talking about an already absurdly low level of reserves.

the article says that consumers may not be feeling the recovery.

but but but yesterday Yellen said:

"the most recent data show consumers releasing somewhat their tight grips on their wallets"

black dog wrote:

but but but yesterday Yellen said:
"the most recent data show consumers releasing somewhat their tight grips on their wallets"

They ran low on beans and rice. Switching to ramen noodles caused a surge in consumer spending.

Speaking of making up rules as they go, the WA state legislature voted last night to "set aside" a citizen passed initiative requiring voter approval to raise taxes. They are talking about increasing the sales tax 1.0% to help make up a $2B+ deficit. We already pay 9.3% in my area, with the increase I believe we would have the highest sales tax in the nation!

Jonathon mentioned he was reading "I Will Bear Witness" a few threads ago, and it's a cautionary tale of how rights get taken away one by one, little things at first to test the mettle of the crowd, and so on...

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

rights get taken away one by one, little things at first to test the mettle of the crowd, and so on...

Is anyone else more than a little suspicious about what the proposed consumer protection agency might do?

Regardless of reality, as soon as fear enters the equation, you can't have freedom. A nation of fear is a nation without rights.

Fear is reason gone mad.

YouTube - The Ventures - One Step Beyond (Fear) / The Twilight Zone

Inverted Hammer of Thor wrote:

I am of the opinion that the MID should be eliminated. It is clearly unfair to renters, and effectively rewards people for taking on debt. If anything, there should simply be some sort of standard deduction for monthly/yearly housing expenses (say, for example, $750 a month), whether rent or mortgage payments, and leave it at that.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....just eliminate it, and let housing prices find their new, lower level, and again, everyone (except for the banksters) benefits......This is a program to benefit mortgagors, not mortgagees.

Let think for a moment, through out the the boom years, 00 being probably the biggest money making period ( I think ) the men at the top made Billions and Billions of dollars, only to come back again and make ( TAKE ) even more billions of dollars.

WHERE THE FU*K IS ALL THE MONEY! one would think that a billion alone would suffice, but no!....A billion is way too small of an amount.....lets go Trillions...Does anyone else but myself see how ridiculous this all looks?

Again I ask.....where is all the money?

Fear is good.

Let me guess - you're a Republican

Money supply growth is collapsing right now - the black hole that is the banking system will push the economy back into recession. I guess you just can't print your way to prosperity. Hoocoodanode?

ah, shill, you mean those trillions of fiat currency?

--bh

noob goldberg wrote:

I think it's disturbing that you do the nasty with your wife on a bed full of money

You have to kind of admire someone with such a practical kink.

Red meat for "doomers" (like me):

Ferguson: We're One Downgrade Away From The End Of American Empire

Cinco-X wrote:

Voters still strongly oppose the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats and think Congress should focus instead on smaller bills that address problems individually rather than a comprehensive plan.

Damn straight! Keep your dirty Guvmint hands off my Medicare and other employer health insurance tax breaks! The 30m without insurance can just go live in Mexico(lets hope I do not fall in that group anytime soon)!

dum luk wrote:

Fear is good.

Let me guess - you're a Republican

Hah! Pot calling the kettle black? Remember nuclear freeze, global warming, and all the other scare tactics used by the dems to try and influence the electorate? Plenty of blame to go around, and the parties aren't that different-

Fresh union h8 from Mish...
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Miami's City Manager Resigns; New manager Promises to Tackle Budget Woes; How Unions, Politicians Bankrupted Miami

"Migoya said he won't leave until the city's finances are in order. He will forgo a salary and benefits of more than $300,000 a year."

"Migoya said he has no background dealing with unions, but that it's time to rein in contracts that have created a pension obligation expected to cost taxpayers more than $100 million at the end of this budget year."

... soon to be fitted for cement overshoes? Note that Migoya is a former banker.

Nearly 20% of US Workers Underemployed in Jan - CNBC

Maybe the 20% sitting at home are wondering where the F'en money is also.

Don't mind me, I am having one of those pissy mood type days. You get sick and tired of it all once and a while.

Sick and tired of the fu*king games that is.

This past year was my last one @ Black Rock City after almost a decade of hanging out on a sterile dry lake bed for a week once a year.

I saw so much cool stuff and shared a lot of good times with the good people I encountered...

We had a bar for about 5 years, and it was fun playing bartender, especially when you got rid of the notion of money, if only for awhile in fantasyland.

The Economist/YouGov poll: This week's Economist/YouGov poll | The Economist

IN THIS week's Economist/YouGov poll we asked our usual questions about issues like the economy. We also asked a number of questions about the tea-party movement and what my colleague has called "the GOP id". First the highlights from the issues section, then the juicier bits (which you'll want to stick around for):

Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:

You have to kind of admire someone with such a practical kink.

Given my difficulties in acquiring a sufficient bed of cash through trading, I'm pretty sure my reliance on bourbon-soaked koalas and midgets wearing clown makeup is still more practical.

Doofus wrote:

Glaciers just melt themselves? Yikes, the clueless-fu is strong.

Some glaciers are actually reforming, and it's been shown that the melting of the projected effects of melting of the Himalayan was vastly overblown. If you're really worried about the clueless-fu, put the mirror down....
BTW, vary apt handle

Curious Sportsfan,
What issues are the most important to you?

Doofus wrote:

global warming, and all the other scare tactics

so global warming/climate change is just a scare tactic? Glaciers just melt themselves? Yikes, the clueless-fu is strong.

No, not climate change per se but the drumbeat that something must be done is what needs to be questioned.

and it's been shown that the melting of the projected effects of melting of the Himalayan was vastly overblown.

Link please? And what does "melting of the projected effects of melting" supposed to mean?

Mish must imagine that busting the union pensions in Miami via municipal bankruptcy will have no consequences.

Mish is a fool.

Remember nuclear freeze, global warming, and all the other scare tactics used by the dems to try and influence the electorate?

remember WMD's, illegal immigrants, government itself, and all the other scare tactics used buy the Republicans to try and influence the electorate?

think before you speak, Cinco.

Miami has been a banana republic for about 25 years. Florida followed shortly after that. The US is on the fast track heading that way.

In the Olympic spirit:

Kilsyth Curling Club claims to be the first club in the world, having been formally constituted in 1716; it is still in existence today. Kilsyth also claims the oldest purpose-built curling pond in the world at Colzium, in the form of a low dam creating a shallow pool some 100 × 250 metres in size, though this is now very seldom in condition for curling because of warmer winters

[Wiki]

"Global warming what a joke..."

Oh, it is no joke, it is a planned scam to strip the middle class of the developed world of even more wealth.

Also note how it has been rebranded as "climate change", so any natural fluctuation in the weather can be used as a scare tactic.

My entire mental state is a precarious balance of unsupported assumptions and bald assertions.

That sounds normal, even for so-called rationalists.

it's my favorite midget western, by far.

shill-

In our local city paper the global warming question was asked as the "man/woman on the street question" last week. The bleached blond woman (with child in tow) said...."well it was cold last night so I think it's all a myth"...

Ciao
MS

RD, I think you mentioned RDN earlier, I was one of the put buyers, not on the 2.50 contract though, picked up a few April 7.50 puts, at 35cents they were a steal. This is a company that mitigated its losses this quarter by marking down its CDS obligations because the market's view on its credit risk deteriorated.

It's good to see that they are running up that Oil Price to 80 USD again. Must be future demand.

What happened to the Output Gap?

Oh, it is no joke, it is a planned scam to strip the middle class of the developed world of even more wealth.

How many thousands of scientists,including field biologists, are complicit in the scam? Do they have conventions where they decide how to proceed with the plot?

MS wrote:

In our local city paper the global warming question was asked as the "man/woman on the street question" last week

The Onion is much more accurate in this regard.

Ask a stupid question, get a surreal answer.

Thanks. I see. So they're melting a bit slower than expected, therefore everything's fine. Nothing to see here. Nothing wrong. Oh, and it's snowing in February, so those Dems are idiots.

ghost-

The ML school of accounting......and C, GS,JPM....the list is way too long. I'd dearly love to use my reduced liability's to book as a profit as well.

Ciao
MS

Everybody blogs about the weather but nobody does anything about it...

I think Global Warming or Global Cooling will fade into the background for a couple of years. In any case, the Earth could use a lower tempo than 2007.

Not true JD. I go out in the backyard daily and flap my butterfly wings.

black dog wrote:

"consumers releasing somewhat their tight grips on their wallets"

They're mostly empty, not much point now.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

How many thousands of scientists,including field biologists, are complicit in the scam? Do they have conventions where they decide how to proceed with the plot?

Seems to be about 25,000 and yes, they do hold conventions but most of their mischief is done via email. Climategate has gone criminal, the last convention collapsed in a shambles, cap'n'trade is dead, the hockey stick kaput, on and on.

The plot? Why it's one with which the commentariat is very familiar. Extend and pretend. Oh, and hide the decline.

CR's graph shows that they haven't been at the statutorily mandated 1.15% minimum since Q1 '08. Heckuva job Sheila.

Well, if the numbers look bad, it's because their accounting is at least halfway honest. The FDIC took advances from banks to ensure liquidity, which is not reflected in those numbers. Now, they will need to take extra steps to ensure their solvency, and it still may turn out to be politically easier to ask Treasury rather than raise assessments on the banks. So I'm not giving FDIC a passing grade yet. But the simple fact that they aren't counting the advance payments against their balance makes them more honest than any Federal or state government.

Seems to be about 25,000 and yes, they do hold conventions but most of their mischief is done via email. Climategate has gone criminal...

Bring it to the attention of your nearest US Attorney. Or is he in on the plot too?

pavel.chichikov wrote:

How many thousands of scientists,including field biologists, are complicit in the scam? Do they have conventions where they decide how to proceed with the plot?

Most of them that rely on govt. funding for their efforts, and recently it was disclosed that the scam was propagated by e-mail conspiracy, and by using strategic positions on the review boards of a number of "academic" journals....

So which part of the Government do you want to cut? Defense, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid?

OP-ED COLUMNIST; The Bankruptcy Boys - NY Times 

Cinco-X wrote:

Thanks, IHoT; I guess that one never made the rounds on the DailyKOS Wink

My favorite article is the one that says it all, at least to anyone with an even rudimentary understanding of statistical analysis:

Researchers Question Validity Of A 'Global Temperature'

"The Globe consists of a huge number of components which one cannot just add up and average. That would correspond to calculating the average phone number in the phone book. That is meaningless. Or talking about economics, it does make sense to compare the currency exchange rate of two countries, whereas there is no point in talking about an average 'global exchange rate'."

ghostfaceinvestah wrote:

"Sure, there probably is climate change going on, "
Just like the past 10 billion years of Earth's history.

Have they changed the age of the Earth? I thought it was 4.5 billion y/o. in any event, your point is well taken.

"So which part of the Government do you want to cut? Defense, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid?"

I'd start with the Department of Education. Only 70b a year budget, but it is a start. Bigger than counting paperclips like Obama was suggesting a few months ago.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Bring it to the attention of your nearest US Attorney. Or is he in on the plot too?

The NASA employees are most certainly under investigation. The Soros connection is gaining traction. and Pennsylvania is threatening a criminal investigation if the university doesn't clean house. Hari Seldon would be proud of the warmists.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

How perverse!

Perverse is the lies of this group a charlatans, lying about their results and destroying their data in violation of the law in order not to allow their conclusions to be questions.

Rob Dawg wrote:

Hari Seldon would be proud of the warmists.

People run largely on programming. Tap into the program, tweak it, and and you can move the herd in this direction or that direction. Most people are deeply offended by that thought and keep it out of their minds, also part of the programming.

Treasury to expand Supplementary Financing program - MarketWatch

what the hell

In a statement, Treasury said it will boost the SFA to $200 billion from its current level of $5 billion

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

I've been learning about microclimates here, and if you are at the right place at the right time, it might be 10 degrees warmer than the outer limits. So you can make your own weather, sort of.

Actually, due to the heat island effect, you can dramatically change the local weather. It's convenient if you want to place you temperature recording device near a town, and as the town grows around it, use the locally increased temperatures to extrapolate out to a "theory" like global warming...

Inverted Hammer of Thor wrote:

Researchers Question Validity Of A 'Global Temperature'

Obviously not the global warming crowd Thanks again...

Timmay gave the SFA 40 whacks, and when he saw what he had done, he gave something else 41.

creditcriminalslovetarp wrote:

In a statement, Treasury said it will boost the SFA to $200 billion from its current level of $5 billion

Hmmm that should jack up the front end roll again...I wonder how much of the reduction in the front quarter T roll was this...

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

this is the best i've ever had... BACON

Not this one?

The NASA employees are most certainly under investigation.

Which ones? By whom?

OT - Brazil, China and India are all dealing with inflation that is higher than they want and Japan is saying they will chase inflation. I was never a big believer in decoupling on any level. Any one have thoughts on this? If all these other large economies are facing inflation, does that make inflation more likely in the US?

Any one know of good writing on this topic? A good book?

thanks

Cinco-X wrote:

Actually, due to the heat island effect, you can dramatically change to local weather. It's convenient if you want to place you temperature recording device near a town, and as the town grows around it, use the locally increased temperatures to extrapolate out to a "theory" like global warming...

You forgot the IMO single greatest hit to AGW ever: Home
Hundreds, now thousands of UHI and microclimate abuses documented. ALL of them warm biased.
An example: Marysville issues2

Today's poster child for government meddling:

India's Green Revolution Is Stunted as Fertilizer Subsidy Backfires - WSJ.com

Raytheon and Lockheed Martin seem to be some of the biggest in hiring in regards to high paying jobs, at least in the DFW area.

I know they legally have to post jobs and not hire without a job posting, so might skew the numbers some.

warming or not up for debate. CO2 ppm on the rise and direct absorbtion into the ocean as carbonic acid, not so much.

My two cents: pH change in the ocean more likely to cause mass disruption (correlated to other mass extinctions 65 millions years ago) then global warming via super-monsoons and tidal waves and vast desertification. You kill off a large percentage of plankton because of pH and the rest of the food chain dies.

--bh

credit-
stealth QE2.... IMO. All done in eight weeks no less.....

Ciao
MS

I'm calling by the end of the trading day! Nothing looks good and the news is terrible so the markets should sprint to the close

OT: Indirect Hit Ratio At 100% In Just Completed 4 Week Bill Auction (ZH)

No, not climate change per se but the drumbeat that something must be done is what needs to be questioned.

+1

Now, it's very possible that something needs to be done, but in the two-camps formulation we've ended up with, the solutions from one side look a lot like a global command-and-control economy, the end of national sovereignty, and a program of wealth redistribution on a scale never imagined. Many people reasonably object to this program on grounds of economy or liberty (or their intersection, which is innovation-- an important and valuable thing, when it's not financial innovation). However, the opposition has coalesced around the Flat Earth Society, and is therefore justly mocked. Reasonable folks can disagree (sharply) about the appropriate response to the changing climate. Unreasonable folks can stick their heads in the sand and claim it's all a hoax, but they shouldn't expect to have any input in the decision.

Rob Dawg wrote:

You forgot the IMO single greatest hit to AGW ever: Home
Hundreds, now thousands of UHI and microclimate abuses documented. ALL of them warm biased.
An example: Marysville issues2

Dawg,
I'm no expert on this scam; however, the abuses are so widespread and obvious that I can't believe otherwise reasonable people are still buying it. (no offense out there; you know who you are...) Do you cover it on one of your blogs? I like to check out your main one, but mainly for the graphics

warming or not up for debate. CO2 ppm on the rise and direct absorbtion into the ocean as carbonic acid, not so much.

I'm sure there's a scam involved with this too. I'm sure someone's email somewhere overstated the effect of CO2 on acidification of liquids, therefore the whole thing is BUNK and the oceans are just fine.

Also, your pH meter is clearly librul and a fraud, so it cant be believed either.

12th percent. Asia having issues with inflation means they may cut back on credit growth, commodities stock-piling etc.. IMO this is actually deflationary for stocks and bonds in the US. But inflationary in what you need to buy.

100% indirect take-down......not even trying to disguise it now.
They must have a huge shit pile coming in the next week.

Ciao
MS

poic wrote:

But inflationary in what you need to buy.

That must be why Cracker Barrel stock is up 7% today.

Will will never have a new dust bowl. Cannot happen. Weather, soils science, irrigation, GPS, tilling, on and on absolutely preclude a repeat.

You're absolutely certain?

" Will will never have a new dust bowl. Cannot happen. Weather, soils science, irrigation, GPS, tilling, on and on absolutely preclude a repeat.

You're absolutely certain? "

Science proves that it won't happen. And as Rob clearly showed with GW Science is never wrong.

Vonbek777 wrote:

I'll put Rob down for a definite resounding no. Human progress says it can't happen here again. That's good to know.

Unless we have the agricultural equivalent of a repeal of Glass-Steagal. [sp?]

Any firsthand reports of teenagers losing their electronic tethers because mommy and daddy can't afford monthly payments anymore?

blackhat wrote:

warming or not up for debate. CO2 ppm on the rise and direct absorbtion into the ocean as carbonic acid, not so much.

CO2 ppm is what? http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_data_mlo.png

Ohhhh scary.
Paleocene Epoch (65.5 to 54.8 mya)
- Appearance of placental mammals
(marsupials, insectivores, lemuroids, creodonts)
- Flowering plants become widespread.
- 60 mya: Earliest known ungulate (hoofed mammal)
- Formation of the Rocky Mountains
- 55 mya: Major global warming episode
North Pole temperature averaged 23°C (73.4°F),
CO2 concentration was** 2000 ppm**.

Nurse Ratched wrote:

Speaking of huge shit piles, these things are amazing. I have been starting seeds in these and the difference between this years starts and last year's is amazing.
The History of CowPots

Thanks for that link; I find this sort of "green" industry so kewl...

pavel.chichikov wrote:
the solutions from one side look a lot like a global command-and-control economy, the end of national sovereignty,
If they do, I for one would be opposed.
Me too. The problem isn't global warming so much as that someone needs a reason to implement a global command-and-control economy, and this is their candidate issue that will be twisted and distorted beyond recognition much less objectivity to fit a preconceived agenda. Needless to say it also will cripple real environmental science and climate research.

*North Pole temperature averaged 23°C (73.4°F),
CO2 concentration was** 2000 ppm**.*

Somebody should have told those Paleocene mammals not to burn so much coal.

"The Globe consists of a huge number of components which one cannot just add up and average. That would correspond to calculating the average phone number in the phone book. That is meaningless. Or talking about economics, it does make sense to compare the currency exchange rate of two countries, whereas there is no point in talking about an average 'global exchange rate'."

That may well be the most absurd piece of gibberish I've ever read. It does, indeed, say it all.

If there's anyone out there that thinks this makes sense, can you explain to me just why it's impossible to average a scalar quantity over a surface? Or over time? Or both? Or why you think a phone number--an address--is somehow equivalent to a scalar observable?

poic wrote:

Consumer confidence falls sharply

Totally weather related. It's not actually that bad.

Inverted Hammer of Thor wrote:

"Hide the decline" could be the mantra for any number of organizations these days

I did okay last night.

poic wrote:

" Will will never have a new dust bowl. Cannot happen. Weather, soils science, irrigation, GPS, tilling, on and on absolutely preclude a repeat. - RD

You're absolutely certain?

Yes. This is real science.

Abstract

Agriculture and the plow originated 10–13 millennia ago in the Fertile Crescent of the Near East, mostly along the Tigris, Euphrates, Nile, Indus and Yangtze River valleys, and were introduced into Greece and southeastern Europe not, vert, similar8000 years ago. The wooden plow, called an ard, evolved into the “Roman plow”, with an iron plowshare, described by Virgil around 1 ad and was used in Europe until the fifth century. It further evolved into a soil inverting plow during the 8th to 10th century. In the U.S., a moldboard plow was designed by Thomas Jefferson in 1784, patented by Charles Newfold in 1796, and marketed in the 1830s as a cast iron plow by a blacksmith named John Deere. Use of the plow expanded rapidly with the introduction of the “steam horse” in 1910 that led to widespread severe soil erosion and environmental degradation culminating in the Dust Bowl of the 1930s. A transition from moldboard plow to various forms of conservation tillage began with the development of 2,4-D after World War II. No-till is presently practiced on about 95 million hectares globally. No-till technologies are very effective in minimizing soil and crop residue disturbance, controlling soil evaporation, minimizing erosion losses, sequestering C in soil and reducing energy needs. However, no-till is effective only with the use of crop residue as mulch, which has numerous competing uses. No-till farming can reduce yield in poorly drained, clayey soils when springtime is cold and wet. Soil-specific research is needed to enhance applicability of no-till farming by alleviating biophysical, economic, social and cultural constraints. There is a strong need to enhance sustainability of production systems while improving the environmental quality.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Somebody should have told those Paleocene mammals not to burn so much coal.

Weren't they the ones actually making the coal, or was that the plants, and the mammals were making the oil?

What neither side wants to talk about is that what we need is less consumption and living with less. The planet cannot afford the number people it has ALL consuming like North Americans.

But that requires a lot more effort and fundamental changes to our society then cap-and-trade. Which is basically pay to pollute and a scam to re-capitalize the banks and financial industry.

Nobody other than fringe liberals wants to openly discuss this type of solution.

Give it up; the Earth is not warming due to man-

Maybe the Earth is warming due to all the Dinosaur fossils....You know the so called Fossil fuel.

I always laugh when I hear the word Fossil fuel....another myth.

shill, have the meds helped at all?

poic wrote:
What neither side wants to talk about is that what we need is less consumption and living with less. The planet cannot afford the number people it has ALL consuming like North Americans.
We'll do that, too... after all other fraudulent options have been tried and failed.

yeah, no way dinosaurs could be fossilized being only about 6,000 years old.

Give it up;

I won't. I don't think it's wrong.

wouldn't ice core data be distorted for that period, or even nonexistent?

If it were, do you think the people who measure ice cores wouldn't know about it? Or do you accuse them with criminal conspiracy as well?

This charge of criminal conspiracy is unfalsifiable. It's like a charge of witchcraft.

ghostfaceinvestah wrote:

"Sure, there probably is climate change going on, "
Just like the past 10 billion years of Earth's history.

The warmers have the same ideas as neoclassical economists. That is, the climate and the economy are always in equilibrium unless some outside force disturbs it. Then, it goes back to equilibrium.

poic wrote:

What neither side wants to talk about is that what we need is less consumption and living with less. The planet cannot afford the number people it has ALL consuming like North Americans.
But that requires a lot more effort and fundamental changes to our society then cap-and-trade. Which is basically pay to pollute and a scam to re-capitalize the banks and financial industry.
Nobody other than fringe liberals wants to openly discuss this type of solution.

I met some of them; they were in a restaurant in NYC, eating a variety plate of oysters flown in from all up and down the East Coast that day...seriously! Of course, they had flown in from various locations around the world to discuss. BTW, I highly recommend the restaurant:
Aquagrill -- Index

Aquagrill offers a beautiful selection of oysters.
We have 25 to 30 varieties for our guests everyday.
If you have any questions on our daily selection please call us at
212-274-0505.

Listed are 200 oysters that have been served at Aquagrill in alphabetical order:

Aleutique Oysters - Alaska $2.95 each
Anchannoch Oysters - New York State $2.40 each
Aquidneck Oysters - Rhode Island $2.10 each
Aquidneck XL Oysters - Rhode Island $2.65 each
Arcadia Point Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Asharokon Oysters - New York State $2.40 each
Barnstable Bay Oysters - Massachusetts $2.50 each
Bear Point Oysters - Rhode Island $2.20 each
Belon Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.65 each
Belon XL Oysters - Maine $2.95 each
Bedeque Bay Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.65 each
Blue Point Oysters - Connecticut $1.90 each
Blue Point XL Oysters - Connecticut $2.20 each
Bras D’Or Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.15 each
Bras D’Or XL Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.65 each
Bristol Harbor Oysters - Rhode Island $2.25 each
Buzzards Bay Oysters - Massachusetts $2.40 each
Canadian Cove Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.10 each
Canada Cup Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.15 each
Canoe Lagoon Oysters - Alaska $3.20 each
Cape Anne Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.10 each
Cape Breton Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.40 each
Caraquet Petite Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.00 each
Caraquet Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.40 each
Carlsbad Blonde - California $2.50 each
Chefs Creek Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Chesapeake Bay Oysters - Maryland $2.35 each
Chilmark Oysters - Massachusetts $2.35 each
Chiloe Oysters - Chile, South America $2.30 each
Chiloe Belon Oysters - Chile, South America $2.20 each
Chincoteague Oysters - Virginia $2.00 each
Clarion Cove Belon Oysters - Chile, SA. $2.20 each
Clarion Cove Oysters - Chile, South America $2.20 each
Cockenoe Island Oysters - Mass. $2.30 each
Coromandel Oysters - New Zealand $2.90 each
Coromandel XL Oysters - New Zealand $3.20 each
Conimicut Point Oysters- Rhode Island $2.40 each
Cortes Island Oysters - British Columbia $2.10 each
Cranes Neck Oysters - New York State $2.30 each
Cotuit Oysters - Massachusetts $2.40 each
Crystal Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.35 each
Cuttyhunk Oysters - Massachusetts $2.40 each
Dabob Bay Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Damariscotta Oysters - Maine $2.40 each
Del Sol Oysters - California $2.40 each
Deep Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Deep Rock Oysters - Virginia $2.40 each
Deer Creek Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Delaware Bay Oysters - Delaware $2.05 each
Denman Island Oyster- British Columbia $2.30 each
Duck Island Oysters - New York State $2.30 each
Dungeness Oysters - Washington State $2.20 each
Dungeness XL Oysters - Washington State $2.70 each
Duxbury Oysters - Massachusetts $2.40 each
Eagle Creek Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Eastham Oysters - Massachusetts $2.50 each
El Cardon Oysters - Baja, Mexico $2.85 each
El Inlet Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Emerald Cove Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Evening Cove Oysters - Washington State $2.15 each
Falmouth Oysters - Massachusetts $2.20 each
Fanny Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.15 each
Fire Island Oysters - New York State $2.30 each
Fishers Island Oysters - New York State $2.10 each
Gigamoto Oysters - Washington State $2.05 each
Glidden Point Oysters - Maine $2.40 each
Gold Creek Oysters - Washington State $2.15 each
Golden Mantle Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Goldsmith Bay Oysters - Oregon $2.15 each
Goose Point Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Great South Bay Oysters - New York State $2.25 each
Gugins Oysters - Rhode Island $2.10 each
Hama Hama Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Hammersley Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Hawks Point Oysters - Washington State $2.25 each
Hog Island Oysters - Rhode Island $2.30 each
Hood Canal Oysters - Washington State $2.25 each
Hood Canal XL Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each
Humbolt Bay Oysters - California $2.25 each
Hunter Point Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Imperial Eagle Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Imperial Eagle XL Oysters - British Columbia $2.75 each
Judd Cove Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Kumomoto Oysters - California $2.60 each
Kumomoto Oysters - Oregon $2.60 each
Kumomoto Oysters - Washington State $2.60 each
Kusshi Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
La St. Simon Oysters - New Brunswick $2.40 each
Lasqueiti Island Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Little Tahuya Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Lummi Bay Belon Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each

Malaspina Oysters - British Columbia $2.20 each
Malagash Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.30 each
Malpeque Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.10 each
Malpeque XL Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.65 each
Martha's Vineyard Oysters - Massachusetts $2.40 each
Mecox Bay Oysters - New York State $2.35 each
Matinecock Oysters - New York State $2.25 each
Mill Point Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.35 each
Marin Bay Oysters - California $2.40 each
Morro Bay Oysters - California $2.15 each
Montauk Oysters - New York State $2.10 each
Moonstone Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Moonstone Belon Oysters - Rhode Island $2.65 each
Nanaquaket - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Nantucket Oysters - Massachusetts $2.20 each
Narragansett Oysters - Rhode Island $2.20 each
Newport Cup Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Nootka Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Northumberland Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.20 each
Northumberland Oysters XL - Prince Edward Island $2.40 each
Olympia Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Oyster Pond Oysters - New York State $2.60 each
Oysterville Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Pacific Blue Point Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each
Pacific Orchard Oysters - British Columbia $2.15 each
Paradise Cove Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Peale Passage Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Pearl Bay Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Pearl Bay XL Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each
Pearl Point Oysters - Washington State $2.05 each
Pebble Beach Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Peconic Bay Oysters - New York State $2.25 each
Pemaquid Oysters - Maine $2.65 each
Pemaquid XL Oysters - Maine $2.95 each
Penn Cove Oysters - Washington State $2.00 each
Phantom Creek Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Pickering Pass Oysters - Washington State 2.30 each
Pickle Point Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.35 each
Pine Island Oysters - New York State $1.65 each
Pine Hill Cove Oysters - Rhode Island $2.25 each
Pipe’s Cove Oysters - New York State $2.40 each
Piper’s Point Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.20 each
Poppasquash Point Oysters - Rhode Island $2.30 each
Potowomut Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Prudence Oysters - Rhode Island $2.10 each
Quilcene Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Quonset Point Oysters - Massachusetts $2.60 each
Rappahannock River Oysters - Virginia $2.15 each
Raspberry Point - Prince Edward Island $3.10 each
Rhode Island Oysters - Rhode Island $1.80 each
Rilan Bay Oysters - Chile, South America $2.25 each
Robins Island Oysters - Connecticut $2.15 each
Rocky Point Oysters - Alaska $2.60 each
Rocky Bay Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.90 each
Royal Miyagi Oysters - British Columbia $2.85 each
Royal Miyagi XL Oysters - British Columbia $2.95 each
Rumstick Point Oysters - Rhode Island $2.15 each
Sakonett Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Salt Aire Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.15 each
Samish Oysters - Washington State $2.15 each
Savage Harbor Oysters - Prince Edward Island $2.40 each
Ships Point Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Shoal Water Oysters - Washington State $2.20 each
Sheepscott Bay Oysters - Maine $2.35 each
Simpson Bay Oysters - Alaska $2.95 each
Sinku Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Shinnecock Oysters - New York $2.55 each
Sisters Point Oysters - Washington State $2.15 each
Skookum Oysters - Washington State $2.10 each
Snow Creek Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Snow Creek Belon Oysters - Wash. State $2.40 each
Spencer Cove Oysters - Washington State $2.20 each
Spinney Creek Oysters - Maine $2.10 each
Star Beach Oysters- Washington State $2.30 each
Steamboat Oysters - Washington State $2.25 each
Stengle Point Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Stellar Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Stranges Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Summer Ice Oysters - British Columbia $2.40 each
Sun Hollow Oysters - Washington State $2.55 each
Sunnyside Oysters - Nova Scotia $2.60 each
Sunset Beach Oysters - Washington State $2.25 each
Tallmadge Blue Point Oysters - Connecticut $1.40 each
Tangier Sound Oysters - Maryland $2.05 each
Target Rock Oysters - New York State $2.15 each
Tasmanian Oysters - Washington State $2.60 each
Tatamagouche Oysters - Nova Scotia $1.90 each
Thorndyke Bay Oysters - Washington State $2.40 each
Tomahawk Oysters - Massachusetts $2.55 each
Tomales Bay Oysters- California $2.85 each
Totten Inlet Oysters - Washington State $2.25 each
Trails End Oysters - Washington State $2.30 each
Umpqua Triangle Oysters - Oregon $2.40 each
Ushers Cove Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Viking Bay Oysters - British Columbia $2.35 each
Watch Hill Oysters - Rhode Island $2.40 each
Wild Fire Island Oysters - New York State $2.35 each
Willapa Bay Oysters - Oregon $2.40 each
Wellfleet Oysters - Massachusetts $2.60 each
Westcott Bay Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each
Westcott Belon Oysters - Washington State $2.65 each
Westcott Bay XL Oysters - Washington State $3.05 each
Whaletown Oysters - British Columbia $2.30 each
Widows Hole oysters - New York $2.30 each
Willapa Bay Oysters - Oregon $2.40 each
Willapa Bay XL Oysters - Oregon $2.80 each
Windy Bay Oysters - Alaska $2.65 each
Yaquina Bay Oysters - Oregon $2.25 each
York River Oysters – Virginia $2.15 each

Cinco-X wrote:

Superposition does not apply to non-linear systems.

There is certainly a sense in which that is true, but it's irrelevant to the question of whether one can calculate a global average temperature.

Temperature is a scalar observable. It makes absolutely no difference what the system governing the scalar observable is; one can average the observable over the surface of the planet.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Rob, we're not living in the Paleocene. But the 2000ppm CO2, maybe due to the release of methane containing clathrates from the sea bottom, should be telling you something.

Deep sea hydrates sure. Those break loose and all bets are off. Might as well lose sleep over meteorites.

the monster reported sub-arctic central Russian warming numbers and find out how they were derived. Yes, derived, not measured.

And no permafrost is melting?

It constantly amazes me how political and uniformed the global warming debate is (and how often politics and uninformed go together, but that's another topic). There have been 18 distinct ice ages over the past 2.5 million years, and you can expect another 18 over the next 2.5 million years. 15,000 years from now, when half of North America and most of Europe are under a mile of ice again, hopefully there will be a lot of archived copies of Al Gore's books that can be burned to keep warm. All things being equal, higher atmospheric CO2 does correlate with higher temperatures, but it's a 3rd order effect in the scheme of things. 800 million years ago the earth was almost entirely frozen over at a time when atmospheric carbon was over 20x what it is today. Continental positioning is the biggest variable in the earth's climate, but you can't tax something you can't claim is man-made or beyond anyone's control.

broward-

We are seeing the truth.....they can't stuff any more down the PD's.....still don't see why they want to show us that....it's not like we've had any realism up to this point...why now?

Ciao
MS

cinco-x

Please NO food postings. I'm on a fast for a medical procedure. The one we both know and love No food from Sunday night till Wednesday afternoon.

Yup those Meds are working just fine....obviously.

Oil Doesn't Come From Dead Dinosaurs | Green Energy News

So if this be the case,we have an endless supply of oil sitting in our cemetery's...

I do think that 6+ billion people living on this planet, the pollution, the waste, the deforestation, the interference with normal animal behavior, (I could go on...) is indeed having an impact

how much of an impact is very hard to pin down, and no one will ever stop it anyway...

I do think that 6+ billion people living on this planet, the pollution, the waste, the deforestation, the interference with normal animal behavior, (I could go on...) is indeed having an impact

how much of an impact is very hard to pin down, and no one will ever stop it anyway...

So we cut a tree down and plant another......simple stuff really.

I love golden oldies...

YouTube - Neil Young - Needle and the Damage Done 

the treasury and the fed, great artists succumbing to the needle, liquid gold...

I don't know about Its not easy being green, but the volume today is almost as bad as the volume over the past few days. Which means that everyone trusts this dip almost as much as they trusted the spike.

We'll see how it ends, I suppose.

I cashed out this morning Noob....I am done with the DOW.

poic wrote:

Please NO food postings. I'm on a fast for a medical procedure. The one we both know and love No food from Sunday night till Wednesday afternoon.

I just ate lasagna and Caesar salad for lunch, with the softest bun I've had in ages.

Can any of us be honest. Has any money come your way (directly) starting with Paulson's and Bush screaming "this sucker is going down". Self employed, nata.

Please NO food postings. I'm on a fast for a medical procedure. The one we both know and love Laughing out loud No food from Sunday night till Wednesday afternoon.

Ahh colonoscopy...enjoy your drink.

CalculatedRisk wrote:

I just want to say S&P needs to upgrade from their 8088 radio shack computer ... geesh. The site comes up for brief periods - and that is beaten into the ground again.

Don't tell Dirk, but Zacks has been down all morning too.

True, it's just that greed interferes and people want to make a quick buck.
It's much easier to just clear cut a couple thousand acres and call it a day.

Has cutting slowed down since the demand for wood is not that great?

poic wrote:

Canadians are supposed to have more empathy than Americans.

Be back in 5 minutes. Going for seconds.

OT, but check out this little nugget: "http://www.reuters.com/article/idCNN2311348820100223?rpc=44"

"The New York Fed, which conducts such operations for the Federal Reserve, has said it would buy about $175 billion of agency securities issued by agencies Fannie Mae (FNM.N) (FNM.P), Freddie Mac (FRE.N) (FRE.P) and the Federal Home Loan Bank system with the goal of lowering mortgage rates and stabilizing the housing market."

what is going on here, i thought they were about $55B away from completing the mbs purchases? does anyone (cr?) know if this is to supplement their mbs buying mission???

Noob, you're being cruel.

Cinco-X wrote:

Rob Dawg wrote:

It makes perfect sense. A bulimic and an obese person stand on the scale together, divide by two and declare themselves average. But specifically, look into the monster reported sub-arctic central Russian warming numbers and find out how they were derived. Yes, derived, not measured.

Didn't these results come from a sample of 10 trees in the Urals on just one side of the mountains, and when the Finnish did a study at the same latitude using over 300 trees, the Finns observed no noticeable "hockey stick" on the temperature charts?

Not quite. You are referring to the one magical tree of Yamal. That's where Mann et al discarded the trees that didn't show warming. No, the northern Russia data was dutifully recorded for a long time but as the Soviet union crumbled it became necessary to derive the missing datums from thousands of kilometers away in the cities. The resultwas a huge warming bubble on the map but not on the ground.

Shadow Rental Market Pushing down Rents

A pointless argument...you haven't addressed a single point I made, nor have you addressed the points made in the post I was responding to.

B. of. A. ups Mexico 2010 GDP view to 4% from 3%

AP News flash-

Mexican Drug Cartel agrees to trade cocaine for treasuries in new program introduced by the treasury today.

the program called blowmenow or Bankers Love Opiates While Massaging Economic Numbers Of (the) World

credit-

I have my suspicions that already happened with the TARP program.....

Ciao
MS

It's not even a Dorito, it's a discarded roach wing casing.

An easy mistake to make!

Ms,
Held shorts over weekend, I called the treasury asking for some of that program as my butt was puckering with asian gap up Sunday night.....so far so good

mainly edz and smn....

the thusday announcement of disc. rate was nothing, but seemed like a warning shot.....

Comrade Janošik wrote:

how much of an impact is very hard to pin down, and no one will ever stop it anyway...

Agreed. We irrational humans like to believe we are in charge,controlling nature, climate, and existence. I believe this all resides in the amygdala part of the brain where religion, superstition, faith, fiat currency, and the fed reserve hangout. Thus ignoring facts and rule #1: the table (planet) is rigged and Mother Nature is always the jackpot winner. Rule #2 Human existence can go the way of the dinosaurs in a blink of an eye. Rule #3: don't piss in the water you drink.....

Yalt wrote:

The post i was responding to and said was gibberish said that it was impossible to take an average, not that the average might not mean what we think it means. Two completely different statements. The first is flat wrong and i said so. The second may well be true and i didn't address it since it wasn't what i was responding to.

Yalt, look again:

"The Globe consists of a huge number of components which one cannot just add up and average. That would correspond to calculating the average phone number in the phone book. That is meaningless. Or talking about economics, it does make sense to compare the currency exchange rate of two countries, whereas there is no point in talking about an average 'global exchange rate'."

Bjarne Andresen, a professor at The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, said that it was "meaningless", not that it was impossible. So you are arguing a point that no one made.

Inverted Hammer of Thor wrote:

Bjarne Andresen, a professor at The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, said that it was "meaningless", not that it was impossible. So you are arguing a point that no one made.

A phone number is an address. A name, that happens to be numerical. It's meaningless to average them.

A temperature is a scalar observable quantity. It is not an address.

I can't believe there's anyone that doesn't understand this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming neither you nor he really mean what you say.

Yalt wrote:

The "average weight" of all Americans is likely to be meaningless in and of itself, and that's assuming you had the actual weight data for everyone.

I think that statement is entirely factual, and in fact, I think that it is a reasonable analogy to AGW, or at least a very good way of looking at the complexity of factors involved. The "average weight" is meaningless in and of itself. What if the average weight went up because everyone, on average, is also taller? So you need height information as well. What if the average weight went down because there is an influx of very small babies into the world? So you need age information as well. Even after that, there are lots of problems. What if the average weight goes up because fat people got significantly fatter, but average-weight people stayed the same weight?

That is Bjarne's point; you can take the temperatures of the same area and glean meaningful information from that, but you can't glean temperature changes from all over the world and merge it into some "global average" that has any significant meaning, just as you can take one individual's weight over time and gain some meaning from it, but taking everyone's weight gain/loss and trying to average it together is largely meaningless. The average weight could stay exactly the same, even though half the people you sampled gained ten pounds, and the other half lost ten pounds.

And you most certainly can't make any definitive predictions from it, a la the hockey stick graph. If the "average weight" went up 5 pounds in the last decade, does that mean it will go up 5 pounds in the next decade? How can you say with any degree of certainty without understanding the underlying factors for the gain?

The concept of a "global average temperature" is meaningless in and of itself; just like knowing the global average phone number doesn't help you call anyone, knowing the global average temperature (to what extent it could even be calculated) doesn't tell you anything about what's happening with the climate.

barfly wrote:

for anyone to say that because a work as large as the IPCC has some flaws, so the whole effort is discredited, proves their partisanship.

I wouldn't call it partisanship, I'd call it the worst form of contrarianism. The kind where you're wrong and refuse to acknowledge it.

shill wrote:

Bush / Obama racked up quite the bill, and money flows freely out of Washington....well where is it?

You really have to ask?

energyecon wrote:

Hydrocarbon induced changes on the environment will become self-limiting...and then there will be much more immediate concerns.

We can keep burning coal for a loooong time.
It would be interesting to transport some of our resident ----skeptics---back to, say, 18th C London, or even LA circa 1960. Is it really such a huge leap of faith from seeing local environmental degradation to allowing the possibility of systemic effects.