NY Times Goodman: The New Poor
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CalculatedRisk on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 6:13am (315 comments)
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Joblessness: The choice of a new generation.
Let me submit that the root of of our problems is the cult of "American Exceptionalism"
By the time near the end of the empire, the Pax Romana was all Rome really had left - its primary export was culture, which is to say that its primary export became its glorying in its own (former) superiority. Extended in too many directions, weakened by too many wars, forced to hire mercenary soldiers to hold its fading but sprawling empire together, and its government corrupted by mercantilist interests, the lawmaking body made a fat, happy and docile privileged class.
from previous thread
bearly wrote:
nope they did exactly what we are doing- as things got worse they worshiped the same things with even greater ferocity.
Let me submit that the root of of our problems is the cult of "American Exceptionalism". The vapid chanting of we are No 1. It is only because we believe that the average American is smarter and more capable than the average Joe in other countries that we can persist with the policies that we are following. Once you get past that point and acknowledge that the average American isn't smarter or more capable , that once the average Joe overseas has access to the same technology and capital that the American Joe has they will be able to out compete because of regulatory arbitrage and lower wages.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Joblessness: The choice of a new generation.
The only choice of a new generation, perhaps.
Why work when you can catch Jerry Springer in your tent?
also posted this article here last evening ( like I did on CR )
Daily Kos: Millions of Unemployed Face Years Without Jobs
Read the article. The 57 year old woman who is the example of the article is an object lesson. First, her parents were uneducated. She and her husband also passed on education. They are both unemployed with no skill set. Her daughter ditto. She admits to being given 10 bags of pinto beans and has not cooked them as "I have no idea how to do it"...yep, read the article. And there are jobs where she lives but they require some computer skills. She assumes the fetal position and the article states nothing about her trying to become computer literate.
My wife and I could have been her too. Our families had no four year degrees, ever. But we saw the value in education, and that has been the difference. For Pete's sake, if you don't go to college, learn something that makes you more employable than the nearest illegal immigrant. And get some fire in your belly! This self-defeating attitude doesn't play well in my household.
...read the article.
perhaps that is the inevitable. Great countries and great companies. Unable to unwilling to recognize that the ground has changed - and they too will have to change at great expense. Perhaps "extend and pretend" is both a micro and super macro policy?
OT but did people know that the Senate in 1789 decided that the title of the President should be
"his highness the President of the United States - Protector of her Liberties"
Everyone like her could have a job, all they need is a college degree.
Is that kind of like, "Everyone like her could be rich, all they need is a realtor's license and a few investment properties with no money down."
Many of the poor have no idea how to cook for themselves, and are dependent on inferior, unhealthful, more expensive prepared foods. This is by design.
Bruce in Tennessee wrote:
but isn't easier to believe that the immigrant is illegal and has no business being here?
India is really quite revealing- the amount of "for profit education" is breath taking. Even when it is provided by non -profit organizations there is no massive government supported student loan program to pay for those expenses. It has its politicians who rail against English as being "foreign" but guess what the average Joe does everything possible to send their children to an English language school because they see it as a path for advancement. Meanwhile in the US we are debating whether creationism is science!
Yipes!
Understatement from graphics: "The number of long-term unemployed has grown sharply"
Grown sharply?
Tripled the peak of the last recession (2 million), and is 2x the peak of the 80s recession!
Looking at this chart makes me want to go all Krugman!
30 years of economic global-corp sell-out America policy is coming home to roost baby!
I'm not sure that was mentioned in this article.
Do we value American jobs over global jobs?
If not, than this result isn't too "surprising".
Bruce in Tennessee wrote:
50 years ago they would be farming a little plot of land growing enough food to get by I suppose! Given that many jobs are not coming back, especially those that require little or no skills, it needs to be back to the land, like it used to be. There are lots of such land coming available.Example : State of Michigan and Ohio and parts of Penn.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Many of the poor have no idea how to cook for themselves, and are dependent on inferior, unhealthful, more expensive prepared foods. This is by design.
Many of the rich, too. This is also by design, just not quite as much of a crime against humanity. The rich can afford their health problems, and this in turn enriches the healthcare providers.
So basically he's saying the people inside the gym are going to be ok, but the people outside are going to be stuck out there.
Sounds familiar.
Large companies are increasingly owned by institutional investors who crave swift profits, a feat often achieved by cutting payroll.
This is an effin' BS copout! This is an excuse for management to sell us down the river!
I've never seen any "institutional investor" hold any company's feet to the fire because they weren't doing enough to squeeze out the profits!
All of this stuff is straight out of Bogle's book, "Battle for the Soul of Capitalism".
If I have to read about how management has sold out more American jobs in order to satisfy this faux straw "institutional investor" I'm going to type more angrily about it!!!
The sad fact IS, there will be at LEAST 4-10% of the population that won't, and with decades of increased "dumbing down", the numbers are probably more. They will suck off the goodwill of others until said charity is gone. The question is, WHAT is to be done about THAT and HOW? Lots of complaining, but no solutions. Are there any?
Does anyone see a recovery for unskilled America without some form of trade protectionism like tarriffs?
“American business is about maximizing shareholder value,” said Allen Sinai, chief global economist at the research firm Decision Economics. “You basically don’t want workers. You hire less, and you try to find capital equipment to replace them.”
Die, die, die, die, die, die!
Is it almost like we are going to re-learn the hard lesson that Ford learned?
Or is everyone hoping to sell whatever they make to the Chinese, Indian, Hong Kong, etc workers?
Maximizing shareholder value my ass... yes shareholder value has been so maximized in the past 10 years that share prices are foooking soaring!!!!!!!!
Who needs a job when you can live off welfare and unemployment? We have safety nets so that when you fall down it doesn't hurt. The safety nets are thick, warm and soft, so falling down is a much easier choice these days!
Ring around the rosey,
A pocketful of posies.
ashes, ashes.
We all fall down.
YLSP wrote:
Do you mean Goodman?
Edit: Never mind; not enough coffeee yet!
1.2 million....maybe it is time for Americans to invade Canada! Those 1.2 million would make a nice invading force! You know, give people hope and something to aim for. Canadians have been after all acting rather suspiciously lately, they are definitely up to something. Let's face it, who even needs nagging, know-it-all little bitchy besserwisser neighbors. Take them out!
YLSP
You beat me to it, I was just about to post that as the standout quote in the article.
**
“You basically don’t want workers."**
YLSP wrote:
If you are the CEO of a major corporation- your children to go private school, yo live in a gated community with private security guards, vacation in the South of France or in Jackson Hole in a private club etc. Now you have a choice between exporting US jobs and maximizing your bonus or keeping jobs here building a better civil society but earning less money which option do you take?
They will suck the US consumer dry and then move on to the next economy and the next lot of consumers. Why would they treat the consumer any better than they treat a mountain top in W.Virginia. And of course any moves to prevent that behavior will be greeted with "SOCIALIST". And the sheep that pass as citizens will believe them. As I said no difference between the US and Easter Island - worshiping the same gods with greater ferocity .
Holy ponzi-collapse!
For Ms. Booth, work has been a constant since her teenage years, when she cleaned houses under pressure from her mother to earn pocket money. Today, Ms. Booth pays her $1,500 monthly mortgage with help from her mother, who is herself living off savings after being laid off.
Not only are the kids poor, so are the parents..
By "go Krugman" I mean start to advocate more $Trillion spending programs as the solution.
Hmmm... checking out Craigslist for room for rent in Buena Park and there are plenty that would let them "live" within their $1500/mo means. Of course no great luxury of space, the daughter would have to fend for herself.
When I was 20something and into my 30s I shared houses/apt. Met a lot of cool people, and some jerks. Living like that now would be sub-optimal, but you do what you have to do.
longwaver writes:
Who needs a job when you can live off welfare and unemployment? We have safety nets so that when you fall down it doesn't hurt. The safety nets are thick, warm and soft, so falling down is a much easier choice these days!
You're right. Let's remove the safety nets in this jobless environment. People will regain the enterprising fire in their belly learn to make their own jobs and take care of themselves. They'll start to do productive things like building shacks out of trash on government land and robbing your home to avoid starving. The disorder their desperation causes will create more jobs in security and cleanup than the foodstamp payments could have. We'll probably end up paying half of them to guard the other half to make sure they stay in their shanty towns. It'll be like the New Deal, only sustainable, because the security jobs it creates will linger for generations, so long as the new shanty-dwelling class lives long enough to breed. It'll also render our economy far more efficient; an ever-present, desperate underclass will serve as a reminder to those with jobs that they had better accept whatever conditions and wages their employer lays out for them, or else they'll be replaced by someone who will work the day for a ziploc bag full of meat.
Effin'g hell, I'm going to become the best damn CEO of a new company in the next 30 years. And I'm going to proudly employ American workers and take an interest in their damn dreams; instead of feeling all happy that Joe Schmoe owes me something, instead of being satisfied that he has the "privelege" of working for my pissant company, instead of putting his balls in a vice if he doesn't give me 70 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. Okay sure my company is not going to "expand" quickly and I'll have a couple of employees to start as to not require any credit, but goddammit the BS in this story about "American business"... it's not "American business" its freaking "business down-syndrome"!
We run this country like people don't have big dreams and hopes for their lives... "be glad you even live in a country that provides you with an unemployment check"... "be glad you pay your taxes"... "be glad you work for Mr. Big Boss man who busts your balls...". Customer service is shit, business acumen is shit.... what a great country....
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
They'll start to do productive things like building shacks out of trash on government land and robbing your home to avoid starving.
Don't forget drugs, extortion rackets and prostitution... always popular options when the cash flow is just not what it should be.
"Customer service is shit, business acumen is shit.... what a great country.... "
Hey, it is still good...for an African country. Except in Africa they are friendlier.
Cruel, cruel, irony:
“See that,” she said, spotting a man dressed as the Statue of Liberty. Standing on a sidewalk, he waved at passing cars with a sign advertising a tax preparation business. “That will be me next week. Do you think this guy ever thought he’d be doing this?” And yet, she would gladly do this. She would do nearly anything.“There are no bad jobs now,” she says. “Any job is a good job.”
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
And lets not forget this type of person's "retirement" - a crime serious enough to gain entrance into the "3-Hots and a Cot" retirement facilities spread throughout the US - normally referred to as "corrections facilities" (at a cost of $40-50K per head per yr.).
The sad thing is that--if such a protectionist strategy was implemented--future economists would point to it as the cause of the current predicament. As if it would make any difference on the outcome at this point.
Whoa, lots of ire this morning.
Maybe it's time to drag out my glossary entry again...
Yo, BSR, I cheese-mailed you off-list.
YLSP wrote:
Effin'g hell, I'm going to become the best damn CEO of a new company in the next 30 years.
Good for you - shame you'll be cut off at the knees by amoral competitors and a ruthless business environment that will outsource everything possible to cut costs and maximize profits, and they will then have the option of lowering their prices to force you into insolvency. The problem isn't enterprise, or even capitalism, it's our monetary obsession and this sick survival-oriented business culture that we've defended and allowed to fester for too long.
Don't forget drugs, extortion rackets and prostitution... always popular options when the cash flow is just not what it should be.
Hey, those sectors of the economy is pretty rough, but people have to be forced into a desperate situation like that in order to be inspired to do what they have to do to live, otherwise they'll be coddled. I'd sleep better at night knowing that these brave Americans have the opportunity to live independently in their squalid, desperate conditions, without taking a dime out of my paychecks. Wait, what? You're cutting my salary? And I work weekends now?! I won't stand for that! Oh, well, I guess if there are twelve people in the shanties who will do it for less, I'll take a 20% paycut...
I see no future for the poor anymore since we sent manufacturing out of the country. Plenty of light bulb assemblers out there. EPA, high taxes, high minimum wages, Med cost and their work ethic will never bring these jobs back. Now it moves up and the average person thinks the government owes them a job. Public programing has done a great job of killing thinking and creativity. Make your own job.
I may be incorrect here, however, if the US is the engine of the world's growth, then its time to take care of our own...Screw international corps...They either support America and their citizens or they are excluded from the US market...
Charity begins at home!
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
Memphis area population is ~50% below poverty level. UE rate very very high. Misery index 2nd in the nation. I know, I lived in Memphis for > 7 years. Large parts of the country with high UE rate, say > 20 %, will definitely start resembling Memphis, with high crime, child prostitution and drug dealers in every corner. Clinton et. al, what were they thinking giving our jobs away?! I am not talking software, I am talking regular manufacturing of widgets.
Screw international corps...They either support America and their citizens or they are excluded from the US market...
Congressman, I have been reviewing your speech railing against multinational corporations. The speech is fine; tell them whatever you need to... but I was wondering if you could make a few revisions to your stance on trade policy and the taxing of overseas corporations. Why yes, my multinational corporation and all of its executives would be interested in donating to your 2012 campaign fund...
SNAFU wrote:
Clinton et. al, what were they thinking giving our jobs away?!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Lobbyist Ben Dover wrote:
I do, in India they are called "servants". Every household has one or two - even the middle class. And you thought we were done with the 1860s mentality - just wait! The Mrs and I both need a wife - a good looking one would be another plus - one that has an affinity to working with livestock, in the garden, and in the kitchen during her 60-hr a week schedule.
Thnx, Bosch.........I'll let you know.
there's enough blame to go around, LBD. Public programming is only one variable in a fairly long equation.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Oh, well, I guess if there are twelve people in the shanties who will do it for less, I'll take a 20% paycut...
You'll work longer hours for less pay and you'll LIKE it. I'm the boss, I make the rules. If you don't like it, there are always the shanties. Though I hear some of the clever shanty-dwellers found even-filthier shanties, with qualified people nonetheless, which they send their work to. Now if we could just cut out the middleman...
You'll work longer hours for less pay and you'll LIKE it.
I may have taken a 20% paycut, and all of my career security may be gone, and I may be living with my now unemployable children, but at least those fucking poor people aren't getting any welfare benefits on my dime! Hard knocks! Hard knocks for everyone! You listening, longwaver?
“American business is about maximizing shareholder value,” said Allen Sinai, chief global economist at the research firm Decision Economics. “
Argentina went that road and it collapsed the country in the end. They privatized and outsourced everything possible. Some revival has happened lately because workers took old factories to themselves, created more or less loose communes and started making things again.
noob goldberg wrote:
of course not- because that unskilled American is no more qualified, intelligent or capable than his counter part overseas. But rather than accept that - the PTB will push the meme of American exceptionalism and our sheep who have gotten used to the idea of receiving a prize for coming 10th in a race with 10 people will be all too happy to believe them. When people have the courage to say " I am not smarter than Joe overseas and I can't compete with him if he gets paid $2/hour, has no OSHA or EPA standards to abide by" perhaps then Joe will get a break.
The notion of a flat tax and free trade is just amazingly stupid.
Make your own job.
Become an urban lumberjack! Saw down a municipal light pole and sell it for scrap!
Zoom in on the pic of the poor / unemployed woman in the NYTimes article... Looks like she hasn't missed many meals... Given all the safety nets, she probably has a few more years before she hits rock bottom and decides to be useful again.
Calm down, Hoops, use of the phrase "domesticterrorist" will be significantly increased over the next ten years - including people breaking into food stores for their once a week meal.
Hoops,
Don't they have a reality altering video game for that yet?
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Become an urban lumberjack! Saw down a municipal light pole and sell it for scrap!
Better yet, convince others to become urban lumberjacks, and no charge for the consultation. Sell saws.
It just got me thinking
crazyv wrote:
what does it say about the country when you have program "are you smarter than a fifth grader"?
I think it says that when we have a bunch of very smart and well educated people who make a tidy living by engineering programming to appeal to the lowest common denominator in human nature, that's exactly what we become.
Well, I guess its time to burn our representatives...Take them out of office...eventually, the new arrivals will figure out that its "game over"...
If we are condemned to a long term decline, then what is 2 or 4 years turnover in our govt?
Try this first before marching in the streets...
longwaver wrote:
Won't do for BSR's needs! Not young, not good looking, not nimble and unlikely to work 60 hours/week.
The equivalent worker in India, is 20, nimble and will work for $2/day! Global trade is a great equalizer!
-- Keynes, The General Theory
Ummm, how many cars, meals, flights, etc etc etc does 'capital' purchase? These effing morons...sighs...
end demand=labor costs
Guys. What per cent of your circle of acquaintance were in manufacturing ten years ago? Twenty? Thirty?
What is this dirge over manufacturing work sent elsewhere? Or replaced by automation? Or simply redundant? How many of us are manufacturing something for a living? Hands-on?
SNAFU wrote:
Yep... Maybe she can outsource her welfare. Pay an Indian $1 a day to fill out the forms and look for work, then she doesn't have to do anything for the rest of the cash...
Looks like she hasn't missed many meals...
People who don't know what to do with a sack of beans are much more likely to eat a high fat, high sugar, high HFCS diet. It shows up on their waistline. Obesity is not a sign of asparagus tips and filet mignons.
Manufacturing jobs would be gone anyway even without China. It really is more efficient to do repetitive high-precision mechanical work by building a machine to do it. Chinese competition has accelerated the problem but not changed the eventual outcome. There's a mismatch between the capacities endowed by evolution and those required for a Third Wave rapid-change intellectual/service economy. The couple headlining the article point out the problem - only a high school education, and she can't even manage to ask somebody how to cook pinto beans. What do you do with people like that? It's not that they are bad people, but how can they contribute?
The soaring unemployment we're seeing now isn't just, or even primarily from this, though. The problem is more that there have been some massive misallocation of resources into bogus businesses like quasi-fraudulent mortgages or overstretched business like construction. The people in those jobs had to devote a lot of human and intellectual capital to those jobs; it's not that they couldn't have learned something useful; it's that they didn't because of bad incentives. Now, for some, there's not enough time to learn something new or not enough societal resources for training (that includes entry-level jobs).
burnside wrote:
I manufacture e-mails. Lots of them!
longwaver writes:
Zoom in on the pic of the poor / unemployed woman in the NYTimes article... Looks like she hasn't missed many meals...
I think you've pinpointed the one thing our workforce needs more of to become competitive with the third world peasants we've exported their jobs to: Hunger and desperation. America can rise again!
Relax. FIRE is doing great an the banks are saved. Hardly any HBs have gone out of business. No more than a handful of prosecutions proves the rightness of all we've done. It's like all you people have never heard of collateral damage. In this case the collateral was jobs, savings, equity willingly sacrificed in exchange for the benefits I just enumerated.
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Yep... so when she has no access to food (not likely ever) she will hit rock bottom and decide to earn some food. Maybe clean someone's home in exchnage for a good meal and place to sleep.
Rob Dawg writes:
In this case the collateral damage was jobs, savings, equity...
All because of our overly generous welfare programs!
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
We are working on it! Every day the government is eliminating or destroying jobs! Maybe Obama is part of the solution?!?
longwaver writes:
Maybe clean someone's home in exchnage for a good meal and place to sleep.
What happens when she, and people like her, driven to desperation and starvation amidst plenty, decide that things are unfair enough that they'd rather come into your home and just take it instead?
Fair Economist wrote:
here is the thing she is not even ashamed to admit that she doesn't know how to cook them. The NYT thinks that is worthy of sympathy rather than derision. Perhaps the first thing we have to do is get of the PC bandwagon and call this for what it is - stupidity.
The three goals an economic system should balance are efficiency, social justice, and individual liberty.
The woman in the article is willing to work, but she may not have the intellectual or financial ability to get through a college program. You can't tell me there is social justice in Wall Street CEOs making tens of millions a year while this woman starves. An economy can't survive as a free society unless it is seen to promote social justice.
So how about indictments, convictions, imprisonment, (and a few token executions), clawbacks and massive fines for those individuals and corporations guilty of mortgage fraud, to fund the needs of those that need the assistance?
Rob Dawg wrote:
Oh no! A Snark-it bombing! Duck!
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
They go to jail and we pay for ALL of their needs FOREVER! Ironic isn't it?
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Those corporations aren't going to export all those jobs without assistance you know.
shorter longwaver: Let them eat cake.
Mr Slippery wrote:
College? We have a shortage of people with degrees? College is quickly becoming worthless for all but a few degrees.
Good morning everyone... I think the most important thing for most people now, is pack hunting. If you currently don't have a pack, you better find your inner alpha and start one, or more likely go humiliate yourself and join one. Survival for many in the short term will be key. Longterm...once you find a pack, you better develop skills that benefit the pack, or your stay will be short. I am stocking up on yet more salt and spices. Little cloth bags too. Wonder how much a bag of salt will trade for in this brave new world?
What do you do when you've engineered a society that doesn't need its people?
It's taken the MSM about a year to figure this one out. But I think it will take them less time to figure out the implication: a decade of no wage growth and therefore no recovery in real estate.
Next up is the re-pricing of all the fine RE in the good suburbs of Boston, NY, Chicago, Seattle. There's too much of it, and it's no longer supportable in the aggregate in a world where the US professional class no longer has access to upwardly volatile wage and bonus growth.
G
crazyv wrote:
"She can google it on her iPhone."
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Get a boat, sail to the new world and install a BIG A$$ statue in the harbor to welcome others that are "not needed"...
Anonymous Bosch writes:
What do you do when you've engineered a society that doesn't need its people?
Longwaver has it right. You squeeze them until there's no alternative for them but jail.
Rob Dawg wrote:
LMAO!!! Wife went to a job fair this weekend (we don't need the income, but it would be nice to hoard even more!) Half the folks were in their Goodwill suits with ultra cool cell phones...
Romans tried plague...I think the results were mixed.
gregor.us wrote:
No wage growth last decade. Or the previous. What do you think that implies for the next?
longwaver wrote:
You can generalize college in this context to any advanced technical training. Everyone can't be a knowledge worker or exceptional. We need a certain number of jobs for people with less education and less ability.
Mr Slippery wrote:
Why? if you need them, then you hire them. We need what those with wealth want to pay for... Nothing more / nothing less.
Ironic that the "BIG A$$ statue in the harbor" was a gift from a people whom "we" revile, innit.
"We" is in quotes because some are less equal than others.
Mr Slippery wrote:
I love this one.. Truck driver school? Manufacturing schools? Welding school? Got enough of all of them..
Burnside,
I worked lots of undesirable jobs including assembling TV's. They teach you what you don't want to do and appreciate what you can do.
O, by the way, its easier to regulate our space than the worlds...Yes, we require workers compensation, labor laws, environmental regulations, etc, that increases the cost of living (business) in the US...and the lowest waged/lowest cost countries do not...Who cares...We have the greatest wealth as a nation and we have carried the world's economy at our determent for the last 60 years...Its time to collect...and I mean for the citizens and not the corporations that claim to be American with a foreign CEO, foreign workers, foreign tax residency solely to undercut local businesses and bleed this country dry of all of its assets...
I say we demand re importation of skills that were shipped to the cheapest labor forces of the world...Its time to stop being mister nice guy...
Sports aren't doing too poorly. Sports are supported by corporations, so corporations are outsourcing the same time they are supporting sports leagues and teams?
Our love affair with the French is a torrid affair.
Like touch charged capacitors?
longwaver wrote:
Because they are part of our society, whether we want them or not. If our system discards the poor who are willing to work, I think we need to improve our system.
longwaver writes:
Why? if you need them, then you hire them. We need what those with wealth want to pay for...
Say, is that a little Orange County I detect in your accent?
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
The gift was France's way to rub Europe's nose in the fact that socialism isn't the answer. History is very eye opening...
"Give us your tired, your poor, etc.." and we will build a country that can kick your a$$ any day of the week.
@ EngineerJim, if he sticks around
"You can always smoke out a liberal because his sentences are long, his ideas are "complex,""
That's true liberal argument are part real and part imaginary,"
Sorta like math, you know. Reality, is liberal. Get over it.
Both the NFL and NBA owners are planning on locking out their players in 2011. Given NBA loses $400 million per year and only a handful of NFL teams turn a profit, it is actually better financially NOT to play.
Mr Slippery wrote:
They exist because "we" allow it.. Show me a class of high school seniors that is worried about being homeless if they don't find a job before graduation..
They are worried about whether mom/dad will "force" them to drive the old beater to the movies while they "hope" that mom/dad will buy them a new car as a graduation present.
Uncle Ar,
Done that too! Try a MSD ignition with a Pro coil for a real jolt!
A large part of the problem is greed on the part of American business. The NYT article couple of weeks ago about a watch maker in China said that the watch makers take was 10% of retail. He made watches that retailed for thousands of dollars in the US. When running shoes that cost ~100 dollars are all out sourced to China, it is greed, as much as cost of manufacturing. The government needs to take a good chunk out of that 90% to take care of those who would otherwise be making those shoes!
One million solar roof installers. Non-exportable, vertical skills distribution, huge economic multiplier, infrastructure, trade rebalancer, no congressional district left behind. Cheap. 1m jobs at $80k load is $6b/mo. The deficit is running 25x that.
Best social commentary album ever: Lou Reed, New York (1989).
I am off to hunt up some breakfast. I wonder if we will get more snow on Tuesday here in DFW...watch out for traveling American salvation shows that offer saving the world through destroying it. Coming soon to a town near you.
SNAFU wrote:
Then don't buy a watch. Your cellphone has a clock.
longwaver wrote:
I've got a graduate degree and I attended truck driving school. They're not mutually exclusive, and I shudder to think about how people can prognosticate about blue-collar work when they've never actually done it. I've found my experiences in a truck cab to have really enlightened my knowledge of logistics.
The government needs to take a good chunk out of that 90% to take care of those who would otherwise be making those shoes!
No, that form of assistance would only create a dependent underclass, as longwaver fears. What the government needs to do is impose import tariffs.
noob goldberg wrote:
Exactly.. Do what you can / want / enjoy.. Just DO IT! But right now, if you wanted to start a career in truck driving? Yikes! You are competing with thousands of guys that have millions of miles under their belts.
The depreciation schedules on players need to be increased.
Lobbyist -
My skillset wasn't needed in any appreciable numbers. So I went to work in an economy crowded with applicants. Plenty of silver spoons in the family, mind you - none on offer and no string-pulling or connections exploited.
Never troubled myself about what I wanted to do. At twenty-three, I wanted to eat.
Vonbek777 wrote:
Mine certainly has been. More than once.
longwaver wrote:
Cellphones are made in the US, are they?
longwaver writes:
Show me a class of high school seniors that is worried about being homeless if they don't find a job before graduation..
They are worried about whether mom/dad will "force" them to drive the old beater to the movies while they "hope" that mom/dad will buy them a new car as a graduation present.
I'd like some of what he's having.
Semis can be had used but not used up right now for less the the price of new diesel pick up. Reset cost could make for a good start over others.
Well we better get used to the new wallstreet/pentagon fiefdom, you can either join the clergy and join the corporate $ worshiping, or join the crusade in the middle east and get you a track of land for your services. The rest of the peasants can just enjoy the bread and circuses.
Rob Dawg wrote:
That would be soshulism! Never! Let the all-knowing market provide!
longwaver wrote:
It's regionally variable. I still have many friends who jam gears for a living, and none of them are out of work; they're just not booming like they were two years ago. The same is not true for the industrial sector where spent many formative years working in factories; many of them have closed or significantly reduced their numbers. Agriculture, where I also spent a few years, is a different beast. Given the aging and retiring population of farmers, there is opportunity to work there, but you have to be willing to live in the middle of no where. So far I'm not hungry enough to make that move.
or join the crusade in the middle east and get you a track of land for your services.
or join the crusade in the middle east and what's left of you gets to come back and live in another tent under a freeway.
noob goldberg wrote:
Agreed. So maybe when that women in the article get's hungry enough, she'll decide to figure all of this out and do something.
noob goldberg wrote:
noob, I'm seeing local farming/farmers market emerging here in Sarasota and in my sister's banlieu near Staunton in the Shenandoah. Trend? Not sure.
Lobbyist Ben Dover wrote:
There hasn't been any decent money in owner-operator work since the 90's. Perhaps it's changed over the past couple of years, but it makes more economic sense to simply be a company driver for $0.45/mile, instead of assuming all of that mechanical and fuel cost risk for $1.15. It's rare that a repair bill on a truck is under $5K, and usually between $10-20K. Lots of guys get their heads above water (driving older trucks) just in time to get a $15K repair bill.
Do the solar with out government subsidies and then you have at least a start. HD yesterday had a display with a big 30% tax credit as the teaser to sell. Selling a tax break show it is still dysfunctional
longwaver writes:
So maybe when that women in the article get's hungry enough, she'll decide to figure all of this out and do something.
Assuming every single person "toughs up" as you're advocating and resolves to go do whatever it takes, whatever its physically possible for them to do, do you think there are enough jobs for all of them? ALL of them?
I've read that for every job opening right now, there are 6 unemployed people. If we've knocked out the safety net like you advocate, what do we do with the other 5? How do they survive? Or is that not your problem?
The goal should be to aim the arrows at the top and work to dethrone them.
Don't like that Dell outsources their call centers? Well figure out how to create a competitive offering all or some of the same services. For instance pre-built PCs... but hey, you can guarantee that whoever buys a computer from you won't end up calling India for customer service, hell you can guarantee that they will get you. Don't like the telco monopoly in your town? Figure out a way to lease access out and lobby your local city council for access.
The core problem however is that you can't source an American company for any of your parts... whatever, the geniuses in upper management didn't think it that far through. Just ilke FIRE was incentivized by their bonuses to create this ponzi economy; so too the management folks were also incentivized by that "institutional investor"....
burnside wrote:
I don't doubt it, but--where I live--I could simply not economically justify the land expenditure close to an urban centre. For a new farmer the best chance is found where land is still linked to its productive value. This isn't the case near cities, but it is in very rural areas.
"or join the crusade in the middle east and what's left of you gets to come back and live in another tent under a freeway."
Na, you are thinking of Nam vets, something tells me the vets of this all volunteer exercise in M.I.C. profitability will be well taken care of when they finally stop getting redeployed.
Risk reward is everything, Our best and biggest moves where during recessions. Just depends on what you know and can see. Most people are trained to be employees. if you go in all debt with no back up then failure is pretty much assured.
The potential problems caused by a large number of permanently unemployed people has already been addressed by statute and the statute affirmed by scotus.Our beloved president in his wisdom need only designate a few hundred people to determine who is an enemy combatant! since enemy combatants are NOT persons the laws pertaining to indentured servitude,torture,rape and murder do not apply.I suppose the bestiality and animal cruelty laws do need amendment,but just think of the improvement in drug therapies that will come about when big pharma can get the very best test subjects at a reasonable price!
Those corporations aren't going to export all those jobs without assistance you know.
BTW, if anyone thinks that an "I'm alright Jack attitude" is safe enough, you're playing with fire. This country is going nowhere unless it all goes together. There will be politicians to drive home the point.
noob goldberg wrote:
In California there are now many many farmers markets up and down the state. There are about 10 in a week within 5 miles of me. I am pretty sure these farmers live within a few hours driving time, the produce are freshly picked. One can tell by looking at the vegies such as bokchoy, that lose color and wilt quickly. So it can be done if there is a market. The govt can help create the market by not subsidizing the ADM's of this world.
Shh SNAFU, keep it down, I'm buying some ADM stock on market open on Monday. I need to get a piece of that hot government welfare action.
Also, farmers markets are actually hiring in my area, temporary help for staffing tables.
.....over a hundred comments since I first asked: What are you going to do with the 10%+ whom refuse to work? - those who continually suck down everything given to them? Figure even NOW, the jails are full and society can't afford to care for the ones currently incarcerated........solutions are the hard part of the equation - forgetaboutit - lets keep verbally masterbating.
Rep. Paul won the CPAC straw poll by a nice margin - I don't think he would have problems defeating Romney this time, the slick-IB-in-a-suit just doesn't sell well, nevermind the obvious problems with getting votes in the south.
Could make for an interesting race in '12.
What are you going to do with the 10%+ whom refuse to work? -
Is there evidence to back up the assertion? And 10% of whom?
SNAFU wrote:
Those genetically modified crops aren't going to contaminate the food supply all by themselves you know.
Agreed, and this was indeed one of the themes of the USDA conference I was just at. I just don't know what to do with the bulk of farmers and arable land that aren't within 8 hours drive of a major population centre.
Rep. Paul
But he's well into his 70s, isn't he?
He is old, though he seems to have taken care of himself. I don't know how his age would compare with Reagan's upon POTUS service (or McCain's theoretical age, for that matter).
pavel.chichikov wrote:
C'mon, pavel - you are an intelligent man - whatever percent you want to believe, WHAT will be done with the TAKERS?
Nevermind, lets continue to skate around the issue .....
noob goldberg wrote:
Buffalo grass and free range investment banker preserves. Oh, yes, and a year round hunting season.
BSR,
This is like the Titanic. We can only save a few, this will be the strong ones who understand need is the mother of invention. That includes making you own job. Government is useless and we need to move ahead with out them and look out for ourselves and those around us.
pavel.chichikov writes:
Is there evidence to back up the assertion?
No. It is not true that every high school student in America is gifted a car by his parents. It's not true that every jobless seeker can find a job if they just try hard enough; there aren't enough jobs. It's not true that welfare recipients are fat because they're not desperate enough; we feed them shit that the human animal wasn't designed to eat because it's cheap to grow, and their bodies bloat as a result. It's not true that desperate people everywhere are all wealthy enough to afford the latest personal electronics. It's not true. None of it.
It's the reality they need to invent so that their simplistic ideology can continue to cover the shame of its roots: parasitic selfishness and greed. They are blind to countervailing facts, their hearts hardened to the plight of others, any empathy they could have for those in desperate straits is clouded by sanctimonious hubris, "I could never be that desperate. I am immune because I work hard and righteously."
In the comments section of this article, one theme I noticed was related to immigration; example:
"
In the article Ms. Eisen mentions “There are no bad jobs now,” she says. “Any job is a good job.” Illegal immigrants hold 8 million jobs in this country and we continue to import 1 million foreign workers a year. This is not the whole problem, but it certainly plays a big part. I ask you Ms. Pelosi, exactly which jobs won't Americans do? We need mandatory E Verify for the whole country, we need to stop importing foreign workers.
"
Is this a valid sentiment or just blowing steam? I suspect the latter. US citizens will not pick crops or was dishes. Not yet.
Here is one suggestion to the problem...
The Big Picture » Blog Archive » Navigating the Jobs Crisis: Time to Try Government as Employer of Last Resort
I am still reading it, so I don't have an opinion yet.
WHAT? How about a simple, "Can you understand what I'm saying to you"? Jeeminy....
Hunting pancakes is a tricky but rewarding experience. Mission accomplished, family fed for a few minutes at least, you can never tell with my boys...they can gobble down half a horse and ask for seconds. BSR...that 10%...I left traces of answers...packs and plague. Now how that will work in this modern age, I don't know...but history paints a stark picture for the populations of unwanted people.
Calvinistic religious dogma.
greenchutes wrote:
At which time Ron Paul will be 76, which I see as his biggest weakness.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
There are enough unemployed in the USA that they could all move somewhere and start their own economy. Produce for each other. Maybe we give them California?
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
I need a 'dammit, Jim' in there to meet stylistic requirements...just sayin'
I hate it when people hit reply when I am still editing something.
"It's the reality they need to invent so that their simplistic ideology can continue to cover the shame of its roots: parasitic selfishness and greed. They are blind to countervailing facts, their hearts hardened to the plight of others, any empathy they could have for those in desperate straits is clouded by sanctimonious hubris, "I could never be that desperate. I am immune because I work hard and righteously."
Vonbek777 wrote:
I'll take Hoops's view any day over the appalling idea that there are unwanted people.
A weakness that is significantly compounded by the fact that he has no younger proteges at any significant level of government.
Vonbek777 wrote:
And Government is doing the BIGGEST disservice it can by not spelling out to the apparently very stupid people that after next month, 1.2-million more of you will get no more food! The next month that will double, so on, and so on.......instead of this "Everything is Beautiful - Recovery Is With Us" crap....
Ha! Not on my future farm. I have no desire to be squatting behind a sweaty labouring banker on a frigid February night during breeding season waiting for baby bankers to birth.
Black Star Ranch wrote:
There is not much talking needed in crop picking, dish washing, toilet cleaning, carpet cleaning etc. I do not think Americans will do these jobs at the prevailing wages. Not yet. What do you think BSR?
Unless he selects Palin as his running mate.
You betcha'
I know. And who would he pick as the VP who might become P?
longwaver wrote:
Great - a truly productive
parasite, the equivalent of a cyber tapeworm...railing about the lack of productive endeavor by others...
Yes it is appalling....but you are telling me that throughout history...there weren't populations of unwanted people? And how else would you describe an American worker who has lost his job to an overseas competitor.... Everyone is wanted as long as times are good...well not exactly, everyone is tolerated...swept under the carpet. Times are bad though... the worst of people comes out in survival scenarios... Takes a rare person to take the saintly route....and personally I am not seeing very many of those in the hallowed halls of power right now to set an example.
You'll be surprised how far the median income will go when houses are allowed to become affordable again. Lower the cost of living, and a lot of business opportunities that were not feasible before, become feasible again.
Badger boy wrote:
LOL
RATM wrote:
Bloomberg.
Hoops,
It's easier then you wish to see at a young age. The plight of most is their own choice to stay ignorant and find it easy to demand a safety net for them. Others like my self see safety nets have become way over used to the point of no incentive to improve ones self and grow responsibly. Besides at some point we run out of economy and printing press money to support any of this. Watch and see clearly we are close to this moment.
energyecon wrote:
They are super e-mails though.. Very pithy.
Mike in Long Island wrote:
I doubt it. Does Bloomberg want to abolish the Fed too?
OT - We really like our curling up here.
From last night when the men's team went 6 and 0 against Scotland.
YouTube - O, Canada! at Olympics Curling - 02.20.10
Why are people mad that government is employer of last resort?
It is clear that the Federal Reserve acts as a lender of last resort.
Here's a suggestion:
Right now the U.S. spends $8 billion per year on agricultural subsidies - mostly for corn, cotton, wheat and rice. These subsidies do little to improve the nutrition of average Americans (since even the poor face no shortage of calories) or of small family farms (which don't grow these crops in significant amounts). All they serve to do is to enrich giant agricultural corporations. Why not eliminate these subsidies and spend the money saved doing something useful with the unemployed - say hire a bunch o people to clean litter repair bridges and public buildings (There are plenty of unemployed people in the construction trades) , properly close up empty houses, etc, etc. It seems you could create on the order of 100,000 direct jobs doing this and would doubtless employ tens of thousands of others indirectly. Of course we could also just use that money to reduce the deficit.
I agree with this point...but that would require someone to destabilize the banking elite, yes? Pick us over them?
And who would he pick as the VP who might become P?
Lord Blankfine, who could appropriately change his name to Mylord, hence becoming Mr. President Mylord.
Besides at some point we run out of economy and printing press money to support any of this.
You think it's supporting luckless poor people bankrupting this country even in light of the massive support given to the banking, insurance, and agricultural industries?
Vonbek, I know the historical precedents, many of them recent. I'm talking on a far more personal level, and by that I don't infer you'd take that very hard view of some stranger.
noob goldberg wrote:
Usually those who speak with the most certitude...
If we didn't have the FIRE economy blowing such a big bubble, we wouldn't need some of the safety nets. Remove government as the "buyer of last resort" and we'll see huge deflation across the board in all sorts of things.
But wait a minute, if they are the "lender of last resort" to big business, as well as the "buyer of last resort" to consumers... ohhhhhh I see we get squeezed!
Ben,
I wrote a paper in school way back when on the destruction of the American safety net...which was the extended family. I don't think the safety nets being used now, are truly safe...many holes to fall through. By raising a generation of narcissistic, live for the day punks...they usually burn through their family safety nets pretty quickly...in the process becoming slaves to the state.
YLSP wrote:
Including tax revenues and buyers of gov't debt. It's looking more and more like we already crossed the event horizon.
longwaver writes:
They are super e-mails though.. Very pithy.
FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: SCRIPTURE AND DEATH PANELS PROVE BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST
Mr Slippery wrote:
She has 10 bags of Pinto beans- that she doesn't know how to cook nor has the decency to return to the Food Bank so that somebody else can use them!!
I accept your premise about the 3 goals but there is a fourth one that you have missed- personal responsibility. Individual liberty without personal responsibility is hedonism/ narcissism.
I would also add that there is charity, social entrepreneurialism and the market. Charity gives without asking for anything in return , SE helps those who help themselves.
LBD:
Now I know why I previously had you on my ignore list.
Vonbek777 wrote:
I agree with this point...but that would require someone to destabilize the banking elite, yes? Pick us over them?
It's happening regardless of trillions thrown at the black hole of Finance, already. Deflation, plus a social safety net, is the corrective we need, and the longer we delay it the riskier this FIREtrap becomes, and the more prolonged the ensuing Depression will last.
What amazes me (as a single woman) reading these "new jobless/poor/homeless" stories is how much they focus on women who have overextended themselves. Often these women being profiled are women with no savings, too many kids (yes, depending on your social and financial circumstances, even one can be too much), obviously married badly which is why many of them are divorced (economic death sentence for women, in these times, unless you're married to an absolute loser), drowning in mortgages on homes they bought for themselves which they never should have gotten into. I'm not trying to sound misogynist or anti-feminist, but as a single woman you cannot afford to overextend yourself financially. Without a support system (parents, friends, "village" or good husband, in that order), you also have no business having kids - simply for financial reasons (I'm not down on single motherhood, but socially unsubsidized single motherhood). And you certainly have no business buying more house than you can afford.
And now these overextended women are pushing fifty, which is the age when society throws them away anyway. Wow. What possessed these women to believe that they could get away with living so "large" with no real support system behind them? Now they're up the creek.
Early feminism was not about "having it all" - because that's impossible, whatever your gender. It was about giving women opportunities to do something other than have kids and spend your life as a drudge. Somehow these single women have re-drudgified themselves, and it doesn't have to be that way, but you have to live with a smaller footprint.
longwaver writes:
They are super e-mails though.. Very pithy.
FWD:FWD:FWD:PASS THIS ANECDOTE ON
I was just in the unemployment line, for fun, and I noticed all these fat poor people around me with new personal electronics. It was freezing outside, because of the global warming, don't you know. Pass this anecdote off as your own.
Mr Slippery wrote:
curious how would you define a plumber or electrician or carpenter ?
mal wrote:
Some call that being a 'breadwinner'.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
Not until the gunfight starts...
Hoops,
The problem is when help becomes enabling. We past that point decades ago. When the government supports Cash for kids out of wedlock says it all. Money has proprieties just like physics does. They have been twisted and violated to the point of destruction. Public programing supports the evil corps and enables the faux poor to thrive. Problem on booth ends.
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
That's funny! and pithy! +1
energyecon writes:
Not until the gunfight starts...
No, he has a solution for that one, too. You see, if they start stealing or shooting, they're criminals, so they can go to jail. There will always be enough room to jail these desperate people, and there will always be guards willing to guard them. These are the things he believes in because to do otherwise would be to crack the very foundations of his comfortable reality and to open the doorway of insanity.
energyecon wrote:
All the more reason to get those damn streetlights recycled out of your own neighborhood pronto.
Deflationary reset sounds good...but doesn't that require an industrial nation that produces goods? I don't think the post-information age models go this direction...curious what you think?
Hoopajoops LTD wrote:
I thought you were in CA, hoops.
justaskin wrote:
not sure if that was a compliment or criticism. IMO the problem is that we have one political party wedded to the idea that everything can be reduced to a bumper sticker.
I don't understand the whole not knowing how to cook pinto beans thing. Presumably these are retail packages, which have directions (rinse, and sort out stones, boil for two minutes, let sit for an hour, rinse again, add 6 cups of water and simmer for 2 hours) on the back of the package.
The job market is really ugly out there, and if you are starving rather than figuring out how to cook dry beans then you're gonna have a lot of trouble.
SNAFU wrote:
My first job was washing dishes in a small town cafe. And yes I would wash dishes again.
SNAFU wrote:
I think there will always be a percentage of people who will NOT work - will always TAKE before working. I think that that percentage is 4-10% and growing, and, increasing with every new "hand-out or bail-out". Until this segment realizes "that's all their is" by (in their mind) their savior the FedGov, they will keep devouring and taking until it is gone.Then and only then will they resort to picking grapes, washing dishes, cleaning houses, etc., etc........speaking of which.........it's time to milk......Despues ("later").
BTW, the "Do you understand me" thing was a way to ascertain if someone is here illegally - not that they need to speak while performing a particular type of work.
crazyv wrote:
I have no problems with liberals that are true believers. The scum are those that are liberal with other peoples money and conservative with their own.
Michael Moore wants healthcare for everyone, but has millions in the bank that he could use to buy healthcare for many folks...
So if you are a liberal in a super nice home, sell it, get a 1 bedroom apartment and head down to the unemployment office and hand out the cash! Then we can talk.
I am a conversative with my money and with other peoples money.
Winston wrote:
Problem is; "There's no app for that."
True, but even so, raising kids and being the breadwinner without any real social support system in place (your family of origin, your friends, or the "village" of the proverbial "it takes a village") is never going to work. Too many American woman have been conned into thinking they can make it work all by themselves. There is a crazy notion in this country that motherhood is a one-woman job. It ain't.
I suppose the "village" is supposed to be the government, but that arrangement has been falling apart for decades.
Dawg,
You always have the all the sensitivity and humanity of a true Libertarian.
Black Star Ranch wrote:
It was the point of workfare. Deserving poor and so on. Not sure how that fits into the present job shortage.
crazyv wrote:
curious how would you define a plumber or electrician or carpenter ?
Eeeew! That's poop, electricity and wood, not knowledge!
The whole 'knowledge work' mentality needs to die, and the sooner the better. I had Drucker etc crammed down my throat in graduate school. It was propagnda then, and it's propaganda now. "Knowledge work" needs to support and improve business, not do the whole Will-to-Power thing and destroy its host in the process.
Florida’s First Population Decline Since 1946 Squeezes Budget - Bloomberg.com
Interesting data point....Florida’s population declined for the first time since 1946 as the housing-market collapse cut migration, research shows, making it harder for the state to balance a budget dependent on sales taxes.
I flirt with both sides of this argument. Complex thinking is important, but in times of crisis, simplistic, to the point...cut through the bullshit...is important too. An example. Katrina...Fort Hood had blackhawks/search and rescue teams fueled and ready to go on day one. The CG of Fort Hood sent his guys status to the Pentagon, chain of command, saying they were ready to go help. Day 2, no go order...seems we were waiting for the governer of LA to request support from the pres. Day three, it is rumored CG got pissed, and sent his people anyway while the correct paper work got sorted out. But 3 days lost in the meantime...
Rob Dawg wrote:
+10! What we need is the "umemployed app".. You drive around and when it detects free food, free clothing, free money, free housing, it starts to beep!
Winston wrote:
Yes but it is that carefully crafted veneer of disdain that keeps the chewy center all soft and moist.
it's an excerpt from a classic bit of satire from hoops last night. It brought a tear to my eye it was so good.
Hey, I'm a cheap employed bastard and I want that app!
crazyv wrote:
I agree, but you neglect to point out another burdensome load of luggage we bear - The culture of entitlement and excess consumption.
We can help protect to some extent the entitlement and sacrifice the consumption by implmenting tariffs. Capital outflows will be less of a problem in that case. The fears of the 30s outcome are overblown. Clearly the global free economy has become the enemy.
Was thinking something similar ... it's like criticising someone for using big words.
Anyways, Cheryl Bernard is poised to kick Debbie McCormick's fat ass.
Vonbek777 wrote:
Be sure you're right, and then go ahead. ( - Crockett) But be sure you're right.
Vonbek777 wrote:
You won't see it. We, individually, have to set the example. Each person needs to be an example to the next person. Waiting for gov isn't going to work.
longwaver wrote:
You drive around and when it detects free food, free clothing, free money, free housing, it starts to beep!
The next KILLER IPHONE APP!! You saw it here first, folks!
Vonbek777,
Yep, part of it. till you do use government safety nets.
josap wrote:
Each person needs to be an example to the next person. Waiting for gov isn't going to work.
+1. Oh and an obligatory "throw the bums out"! So they can be replaced with new bums.
Rob Dawg wrote:
There are two ways of looking outsourcing.
Traditional - lets get rid of the low wage jobs and gravitate those folks upwards through "education" . You folks in the higher tiers will benefit because you can now get the products produced by those formerly low aged folks cheaper from China.
Reality- when you get rid of the lowest tier all that happens is the next tier up takes it place. Then becomes a race between your falling wages the lower cost of imported products. What the formerly well off are now discovering is that they have knocked out all the lower tiers and you are now it.
I am reminded of a conversation I once had with a Jewish Member of the British parliament representing a predominantly Asian constituency. I asked him what was he a Jew doing representing an Asian constituency based on that if the skin heads were beating up Asians they weren't beating up Jews. He responded - unfortunately many in the Jewish community think that way but fail to recognize that once they are done with the Asians they will come after us. Our protection is in protecting Asians from the skin heads. Unfortunately the American consumer never figured out the similar lesson- if you want to protect your higher paying job you need to protect those of the people below you.
bearly wrote:
You are aware that that last line is, more or less, word-for-word from just about every political movement of the 30s, right?
But if most people are wired to follow examples...then I think we are harvesting what we planted. Is it time for me to build my cross in the back yard and go get on it...
Steelhead,
Thanks I like to know when I am doing my job.
crazyv wrote:
Knowledge workers were mentioned in the context of the reply to "why doesn't this woman get off her butt and get a college degree". The trade positions you mentioned are highly skilled, and everyone can't make it as a plumber, electrician, or carpenter either.
longwaver writes:
So if you are a liberal in a super nice home, sell it, get a 1 bedroom apartment and head down to the unemployment office and hand out the cash! Then we can talk.
I am a conversative with my money and with other peoples money.
If conservatives can hold liberals to their ideology, then they can be expected to hold to their own. Conservatives say tax cuts for the rich mean jobs for the poor. If you're a trickle down conservative in a super nice home, sell it, get a 1 bedroom apartment and head down to the unemployment office with your tax savings and hire some people to do shit. You have extra money from all these tax cuts, so that surely means that jobs must have materialized for these people to do for you. Stop hoarding your money and start walking like you're talking, you rich fuckers!
But no, it doesn't work that way. I get the feeling my kind is outnumbered here by insane ideologues, so I am going to take a shower and get started with my day before you Randian swine start to bum me out.
Here is an exercise for you all - go to Monster.com or Career Builder [or Dice or Craigslist if that applies] and do a job search for your skill set & see what's out there. You can pretty easily tell who is really looking & who is just fishing.
I did that this morning after lurking here about a half hour - in my area [industrial & mfg related business development & marketing] there are still a lot of openings nationwide. Even some locally but none I'd apply for if I was looking for real right now. In fact I'd guess from what I can tell there is more position churn now than two years ago precisely because business is so weak. The people they had in place were unable to manage in these ugly recessionary conditions. Few can. So they reshuffle. Like a losing baseball team at mid-season.
I can't speak for other fields but I'd love to hear back from some of you who do know. I'm certain results will be 'sector specific'. Broward has been a real hero by keeping us up to date on his corner of the world. Anyone else have input?
A further thought on the women-pushing-50 problem: what we need for these women (who, IMHO, were conned) is to get them together somehow. In medieval Europe, they had beguinages (which were sort of convents for non-nuns) and perhaps in American society today we need an equivalent. If these women take care of each other in their declining years, and add value to local communities by their activities, they also get dignity and social standing collectively that they could never get on their own - not to mention political power.
Of course, this idea was at the root of early feminism, particularly in America... but it all got forgotten when feminism became all about "how many guys/girls can I fuck before I settle down, preferably with a doctor."
crazyv wrote:
Reality- when you get rid of the lowest tier all that happens is the next tier up takes it place. Then becomes a race between your falling wages the lower cost of imported products. What the formerly well off are now discovering is that they have knocked out all the lower tiers and you are now it.
I got mine, f-ck the rest! It's GOOD to be the King.
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
And of course you are driving around in your H2 Hummer with 20 inch rims. The in-dash GPS is handy for finding those soup kitchens that don't have a good sign.
Black Star Ranch wrote:
Funny thing about that, while volunteering in Junior Achievement for a 5th grade class with English as a second language, the majority of kids were US citizens, typically with a lineage inside the US longer than yours BSR...
longwaver wrote:
Open Bars - New York City
longwaver wrote:
So you're saying you talk sh!t about your money and others, too?
longwaver wrote:
And of course you are driving around in your H2 Hummer with 20 inch rims. The in-dash GPS is handy for finding those soup kitchens that don't have a good sign.
There was a lady in front of me one day in line at the grocery store talking on her iPhone and and paying for her groceries with food stamps. It's all about priorities, I guess.
When I hear people complain about all the less intelligent people or less fortunate people who haven't been able to get a college degree or find fair wage work, despite being told all is well by the media and America is #1 and "don't worry go shopping", which they believe, I like to point out that if everyone was intelligent and hard working odds are YOU would have a hard time getting a job.
Its nice to think that everyone should be as successful as you. However, it doesn't take much to see that success in this country only goes to a very small slice of the general pop. Are you in it? Lucky you. Now imagine the other 95% of the population was just as good at what you do as you are? That is what you apparently want. But you apparently aren't thinking beyond your own narrow worldview premised on your inherent superiority as to what that would actually mean.
While I have some sympathy for the woman in the article, it seems like she is not doing alot to help herself. Why is she not using her local library. Libraries are the great equalizer. Our local library teaches basic computer skills, including Word and internet usage. They have also reserved several hours a day of free computer use for job seekers. She could even find out how to cook pinto beans at the library!
Should I pay more for a gallon of milk, a flat screen or an automobile, than the next guy ?
Once we get past that fundamental freedom and anti-discrimination point, I think this country can move forward.
Actually I think it is the really intelligent people that have a hard time getting through college and getting a job. Until you have your brilliant recycled idea and get recruited and used by the powers that be.
mal wrote:
I am reminded of that cig ad: "You have come a long way baby"!
Btw., doctors like employers are now checking social networks for social 'history'!
Great post btw, mal! Enjoyed and agree!
Pinto beans and rice can be tasty and are fairly nutritious as well.
By the way, I once made a “wow, don’t these people know any better and/or can’t they get a job/education” comment about a similar article and Tanta smacked me down pretty hard. I don’t remember exactly what she wrote, but believe me, she had a pretty sharp and merciless style. Basically, I now read articles such as this with more of a…there for the grace of something or other…go I.
Regards,
Black Star Ranch wrote:
I think the biggest problem will be identifying who they are. I don't think that there is much argument that those folks will / need to end up on the street or in jail. The problem is I don't think you can a sufficient agreement on exactly who a taker is.
Perhaps we need to redefine what is cruel and unusual. I think if we started shipping some of the prisoners overseas it would both reduce costs and increase the incentive to stay out of jail. But I am sure that my liberal friends would find that objectionable as would most of the right because of the hit that our private jail system will take.
mal wrote:
I know more than a few mid-50 y/o women who are kicking ass - job wise - in this recession. My wife being one of them. What are the common denominators I see in all of the ones I know?
Not saying it applies to all - or that it should - just saying what I see. I'd hire any one of these ladies before most of my male friends.
Bruce,
one of the facts of life is that we can not all be winners. How we treat the losers is some measure of our enlightenment as a society. Or lack thereof.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Yes I don't use job boards. In this job market if you're not a power net-worker that knows how to make the right things happen than you are in deep yogurt and will be repeatedly saying
I do not know what you are smoking, however those on the bottom, have been working on their survival skills a lot longer than 50-60 year knowledge workers.
I've identified what's missing from FedGovs responses to these crises. It is the attitude elided in the following Presidential quote from a time since past: "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening my axe."
dryfly wrote:
+1 to that. Older women who've raised a few kids make excellent employees/managers/bosses.
lost-confused wrote:
however those on the bottom, have been working on their survival skills a lot longer than 50-60 year knowledge workers.
Ironically, outcompeting their former economic betters, probably with a higher quality of life since they are far more likely to be able to be cost-effective and DIYers when money and/or goods are scarce.
km4 wrote:
I absolutely would and most people should - because that is where the jobs post to for MOST people.
Sure C level exec's get recruited other ways but for most people [95% of workers] its either job boards or newspaper ads [yes - they still are used - had that discussion w/my machine shop - that's all they use - it helps them limit the number of applicants to only those they really want - mature experienced factory & machine shop types].
While YOU might not get opportunities from these sites they are hugely illuminating wrt to the market. In my area it is obvious it is in full churn right now.
12th,
After being an employer most of my life I don't think most are naturally dumb but more opportunistic and lazy. Like me I have lots of blue collar to UNI educator fiends that qualify as rich. Money is there, do you have the guts and discipline, drive to get it. The rest of the world is taking it away from America because they have the drive. Starving is a great motivator.
12th Percentile wrote:
It stems from the idea of American Exceptionalism - where everybody is above average. The idea that everybody can go to college is a cruel canard that has been hoisted on the American people. The reality is that even in America half the population is below average ! There are people who just don't have the skills/intelligence to go to college or become brian surgeons. We have to reassert the notion that all work has dignity.
They will be competing with people in other countries who are similarly positioned. Either we protect them (and ultimately ourselves) from that kind of competition which they can't possibly compete with or we end up where we are now.
dryfly wrote:
My field, real estate rental management, has a few openings. Much fewer than 2 years ago. Wages for most positions have dropped by 30% to 50%. Lots of scam ads. Very glad I am self employed. Business is down some, can't afford to hire anyone. Wish I could, would make my life easier.
Dryfly, went to Monster and typed in
RN:5000+ jobs nationally
RN, ICU, CCU: 5000+
BSN: 1200
When you consider that a 2 year degree will earn $50K plus, it is a pretty good ROI. With a BSN 60-70K plus and if you manage a unit, low 6 figures.
Check out why you feel like shit:
County Health Rankings
The more attractive the safety, net the more widespread the appeal.
Lot of pinto bean Nazis here today. Yah, that woman is obviously selfish and useless because she's not cooking the pinto beans or giving them to the deserving poor. Couldn't be that it's just kinda hard to keep putting one foot in front of the other. No, she's defective. Her problems are all her fault.
Keep telling yourself that.
Too many people, too few jobs, too many guns around and too greedy leaders. The experiment starts...NOW (and you are in it). Check initial results five years later. Final results expected after 15 years of running time.
Vonbek777 wrote:
I know it's grim, but I don't want to be anywhere round when you burst into flames.
Besides, the pack will make you share it, no charge.
longwaver wrote:
That is the real problem, they are reacting instead of acting.
That 24k of savings would have been a 20% down payment in many parts of the country, including many parts of TX.
PITI would be about half of the $1,380 rent they currently pay and close enough to 31% DTI to get a loan on a $1,595 monthly disability check.
I hope she at least returns the beans to the food bank or gives it to neighbors. The neighbors might give her something she wants in return.
Fast-food breakfast sales decline as fewer head to work - washingtonpost.com
What....more people are going to have to learn how to make breakfast !
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
While I agree, an iphone is a pricy phone - you must have a phone to get a job.
Charles Dickens: A Tale Of Two Cities: Book the First-Recalled to Life-CHAPTER. I The Period - Free Online Library
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of
, it was the spring of 
, it was the winter of 
, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to 
, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its 
authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
I nominate "PBN" as the new 'node meme.
dryfly wrote:
Trying to find a link to the story carried in the print edition of the Houston Chronicle on the smaller energy industry - summary, expectations of continuing layoffs focused on the downstream and consolidation - with some emphasis on the increasingly difficult time the large publicly traded oil companies are having on accessing reserves around the world.
Well, 50% of people are below average intelligence, right? Do you think admitting you can't cook pinto beans to a reporter is the sign of a really smart person?
I will agree that most americans are lazy. This also makes it easier for me. I have no problem with that.
Like you said, if you work hard you can make money in this country. So why complain about all the less fortunate people living on foodstamps. They make it easier for you. Stop whining and go work harder if you need more money. Listen to your own advice.
I also have worked with people in the poorest communities and had the privilege of attending grade school in the poorest school district in the country. Many of those people will never have basic math skills or be able to write basic english. They are unemployable other than as manual laborers in low skilled positions. That is reality. Now, take away the social support systems and you have 10's of millions of not so bright starving people. Sure hope you are in that top 0.1% who can live in a completely secure setting.
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
Food stamps means you've got no money coming in, not that you've got no money saved. You sign a contract for iPhones, right? You can't break it because you're out of work.
And aside from that, peoples' things are their identities sometimes. Even if she can drop the iPhone today, she's maybe not ready to accept the old times aren't coming back. What's that about the five stages of grief/loss? We're not all perfect machines that can jump from one to five on logic alone.
Ha, ha, ha....Volker... my cave will be on a mountain, the mountain of the high dragon, I will be the rhyming crazy man who speaks for the high dragon. Don't worry bout me. I'll invent my own pack. After a few 'examples' of the power of the high dragon... I might be able to sleep at night.
Re: "Typically, if you're unemployed, you're not getting up at six and not going through the drive-thru,
ROTFLMAO.... this may also account for the decrease in DOT miles....
CaptainMorgan wrote:
Check out manufactured /mobile homes. $24K will buy something decent for cash. Then they have $1600 a month in free cash flow to buy food and pay for utilities. They are paying $1400 a month for rent because doing that avoids thinking / doing.
While many here are busy social engineering and separating the worthy and the unworthy of assistance, the decline will still continue. There would be two items that, one would have an immediate effect on the economy and the other a long tern tangible and symbolic investment in our future.
The first would be nationalize healthcare. Keep your own and pay what you want, I don't care, but stop making the argument fotr not providing it to the rest. this would instanlty transform the nation. Think of all the hours that are wasted on everything healthcare related. Companies would form overnight knowing that the biggest worry of setting up is gone! This alone would make the GDP skyrocket.
Second an Eisenhower sized federal project is needed. High speed rail, like China's massive system being built now. The symbolisim of this and the actual building of this would pull the nation out of it's Carter/Obama malaise. This project would reviatize whole areas of the nation. Of course the people working and producing components would have to be completely and totally US based, none of this China/wind turban shit.
That's what I think, an ex-Obama Democrat and abd in no way a Republican. Have at it, and argue who is worthy to get a job building a new high speed rail system or to see a doctor because they possess a cell phone.
In the Bay Area software engineering hiring appears to have picked up a bit. Last year our company cut WAY past the bone to the budget. Basically everything other than keep the lights on type work. They've added to the budget this year. My wife is in software in the biotech industry and they are still hiring here and there.
The key though is that most of the senior level software jobs are by word of mouth and personal recommendation by someone within the company you are interviewing at. Very little hiring comes through Monster or any other on-line service. It's very hard to find good senior level software engineers so they tend to be always in demand regardless of the economy.
Not sure how it is on the hardware side, I'm talking about server/client side software engineering.
longwaver wrote:
How much is a mobile home space going for in Southern Cal? Anybody know? I'm guessing $500-$600 easy. And then you've exhausted your savings at the same time. Oh, I bet they could move to a cheaper state and get a space for little or nothing. Just the sort of major push I'd expect from a near-60-year-old woman with a disabled husband.
With all the government intrusion over the last couple of years and the willing info gathering people do on social networks. The government and the corporate world can start weeding out the undesirables. I'm thinking a caste system will evolve. You can diss the people with iphones and food stamps but they are better consumerist cattle than say an educated 20 something with a history of civil disobedience.
With the FED effectively floating the entire economy, you have to realize that it is no longer about fiscal responsibility, it is about civil unrest.
It is the slow descent into squalor.
My guess is most of us posting here work in the virtual world. We analyze and process data.
Any terrorist group that managed to crash the grid for a prolonged period would put us in line with that woman. If we were lucky.
Times are definitely interesting. Only problem is that these interesting times might continue well into 2020's in the best case. In the worst case most of us will not live long enough to see the final outcome, sort of like dying in 1940 in Germany.
"Check out manufactured /mobile homes. $24K will buy something decent for cash. Then they have $1600 a month in free cash flow to buy food and pay for utilities. They are paying $1400 a month for rent because doing that avoids thinking / doing."
Around here you're still paying close to 1k per month for rent of the plot that your manufactured home is on. Manufactured/mobile homes also have absolutely horrid depreciation from what I've seen.
Don't want you to think I didn't appreciate the post. I do.
But am visualizing that China wind turban. Very pretty.
im only half way down the thread but couldnt resist
many irate if not outright angry comments by ylsp, crazyv hoopajoops and blackstar ranch and others,...an i agree with all of em
we face a paradigm shift of tectonic proportions
people above asked for solutions
i stand four square in favor of tariffs period........or we will become less than half our former self
count on it
no prosperous country with most of the population making middle-class wages can compete with the well trained poor and working class in india china etc
all the bull shit we heard in the eighties about american workers training and upgrading their skills so we would be the ones with the higher value added jobs was a lie
as human beings, as workers as students, we are no better than anyone else
labor has been arbitraged andd capital investment...trure capital investment flees our shores
Bob Dobbs wrote:
Southern California is a horrible place to live for poor people. Way too expensive. I can't afford to live there (and I don't want to) so I don't.
A friend of my cousin receives food stamps, has 3 kids (probably by different guys), no husband, and goes to a personal trainer at my gym.
Bob Dobbs wrote:
Beats being homeless, which is what she expects to happen.
Again, they are reacting and not acting. How will they react to being homeless? By moving to a cheaper state, or something else?
Morgan Stanley: Today's PPI Explosion Means You Can Kiss Deflation Goodbye
It's all good from here with F'ing endless and infinite fields of
-- those babies grow like 
longwaver wrote:
Every place is going to be horrible, unless you got a friend with ag acreage and a place to park a trailer or tent. That's a safety net a lot of people had in the '30s that's pretty much gone now. We cannot depend on neighbors and family as much as we once did, because they no longer have resources independent of third-party employment.
The American Nursing Association has advocated one payer healthcare for years. It is the only logical move. With an emphasis on prevention, we could see fewer people on units like mine where the care, depending on dx, is $10-25K per day.
By the way, my new hire who begins her residency training in CCU next week, is a new grad from the community college. She's early forties and her previous line of work...real estate agent.
Bob Dobbs wrote:
If you stop moving it just gets harder. They are about to find this out the hard way.
12th,
The country can not continue to support all of the freebies. That simple these people have no respect for themselves little own others. Dead end and running out of money. I am retired and don't need a job. You look at what can't be and I see what could be. There is value in pain and most think it should be avoided at all cost. It takes very little education to make money. Most of what I have gotten was free from old guys. Great source, really. It really is simple for most.
CaptainMorgan wrote:
We're pigged, but you're not seeing the psych aspect of this. She's shut down. She's in one spot. She's feeling hopeless. She's not going to move. A lot of people in a tight spot get into this trap; been there myself. Back in the '70s I worked in jobs programs, and the best one was the cheapest one -- get unemployed people outa the house, get them into a group of strangers who were all trying to find work, coach 'em, support 'em, get 'em out of the rut. It worked. They found jobs. But they needed the support.
Those job clubs still exist; and the support is good; but the jobs aren't there. For that person to behave as you think she should, there would probably have to be a "relocation club," with counselors ready to work out a place she could move to, a situation she could afford, and help her work out the details.
And maybe that's coming. But it's not here now; and when you say, "reacting instead of acting," well -- WHO's going to teach her how to do that?
crazyv wrote:
Poor people suck huh? Bet you don't have any faults. These folks are not going away and they aren't all stupid, nice, and fat. Some are smart and mean and like to use weapons...
Bob Dobbs wrote:
Friends, neighbors and people like you and I. Seriously.
Yes, I get the mental aspect of it. Which is partly why unemployment is a failure. You can apply for jobs online and collect your unemployment online without ever speaking with a person. I honestly think we need to do things that resemble work in order to collect unemployment, even if it's do things that would otherwise be voluntary like work at a food bank or highway cleanups.
Well we have finally reached the end-game in Reaganism. The Government? Guilty! Now that that has been decided, who's to blame now? People of course! You are to blame because you have no job. The government has already been fingered, now it's you with your cell phone and two college degrees.
These government freebies have to stop. Well, unless you own the Chicago Cubs wanting a new stadium in Mesa, or Chase Bank wich has a cottage industry in Phoenix building branches or putting in a new plaza at it's 45 story headquarters...those are not freebies...
There may ne no painless way out. Cut the safety net to force self-reliance to become the solution?
Yes, cut it all.
[looking at Wall Street, banks, Corporate farms, you know...that group with the cell phones in the corner lurking]
mal wrote:
I
you. 
Captain Morgan,
That would be part of my way to deal with all the freebies. Expands into a lot of self help and even peer education. The real objective is wealth redistribution, government jobs for excess educated. Nothing more.
CaptainMorgan wrote:
She's in LA, in an apartment. In a very mobile city. How many friends and neighbors do you think she has?
I understand what you're saying, and I believe in it. But if it always worked, why were people shutting down even in the '70s for protracted unemployment. Where were their friends then? Why didn't it work then? Why did they need Uncle Sugar?
Tell you why -- because their working friends don't know how, either. They're just luckier. How many entrepreneurs does Joe Working Stiff or Dianne Pink Collar have? How many people who know the ropes, been there and done that? I'll bet -- few or none. Her friends don't look like your friends. And like I said, she probably doesn't have any real close friends at all. Certainly no family.
Smartest thing that woman did was hook up with a church. Churches stand in for the social network that's now basically gone in a lot of areas, particularly apartment districts migawd. But there's only so much they can do; the food pantry's probably it. Everybody's saying volunteerism is the way to go, but the volunteers have their own troubles, most of them.
Another issue for over 50 crowd is age discrimination. Not only is a higher unemployment rate, now, structural, but age is an issue as well. Overqualification is the catch phrase, but it's age!
Blurtman wrote:
And then buy a gun. You'll need it. And it's a stimulus; don't forget to buy American.
Supporting a safety net isn't just about being a bleeding heart. It's about realizing that if a social system stops serving a large segment of the population, they'll form a competing social system of their own. And you won't like it. Gangs, cults, paramilitary, etc. Like Pavel quoted somebody who joined the Nazis in the early 20s -- "they fed us."
This country also can't afford to continue to support all the corporations with bailouts and subsidies? Where is the respect among the corporations that they are willing to suck on the government tit instead of working harder? What ever happened to personal responsibility? You gambled and lost now pay the price, right?
This country also can't afford to support the 725 military bases in other counties and the two official wars and several unofficial wars we are fighting? Happy to hear about cutting back on that. We chose to fight these wars, they certainly aren't necessary.
I'm happy to get really conservative with the budget if you want to. I just won't stop at looking at cutting back programs for people less fortunate than I am. I'll go for the ones more fortunate too. Deal?
I could cut every government program to the bone. The reality would mean cutting support for the rich and corporations much more than for social welfare programs.
12th,
Totally agree the bitter pill is coming and I have not like the government give aways for decades. Problems from many directions coming together.
12th Percentile wrote:
Thank you -- I forgot that part. Somehow we criticize the little guy for not picking himself up after losing his way in the hostile maze our society has become. And yet we don't blame the people who subverted America into becoming that maze, out of mindless and soulless greed.
This country won' turn around until it stops annointing the wealthy -- regardless of how they snatched their wealth through preferences -- and classing everyone who fell behind as a loser who can't take of themselves.