One flip a day keeps debt collectors aways

Black Star Ranch wrote:

.....what is he doing in my house?

It would be nice for a week long vacation rental, but live there? I would not get anything done, your milking will go begging!

That first step off the balcony is a biggie.

......milking?.......LOL......the first time I had to climb up one or two set of stairs would wipe out this old COPD stroker......

DCRogers wrote:

and I bet they try.

And I bet there is an increase in BK if they try to collect.

just seconds from the sand

patientrenter wrote:

Every country chooses its own economic system, reflecting the proclivities and relative ambitions of its citizens.

We've always been a nation that was founded specifically on "a new start" strategy more so than the freedom of religion angle. Since banks are much more in control of our federal government now, I see a return to recourse collection as practiced by most banks outside the US. Once the massively pooled blood is cleaned up, the only blood left is what's still on the floor.

Greg Mankiw's Blog: Crises and Government

sorry for the intrusion, lookin for an old red hat

......I would imagine it depends on if the neighbor has a trophy wife........just sayin'....

Jonathan (profile) wrote on Sat, 12/26/2009 - 8:10 pm
And on the theme of what BSR posted in Pigged thread,
Selling all appliances
Awesome. Any cash offer. That has to suck.

That's all fine but the washing machine will never work installed at that angle.
They need a level or something.

Gross’s Total Return Fund Now Biggest in Mutual-Fund History - Bloomberg.com

People just seem to keep dumping money into bond funds. I wonder if this means anything.

curious wrote:

It seems like the sort of thing for a reporter to dig into. Somehow the examples listed here don't jive with what we've been hearing about bank-listed properties.

Bank employees' performances are no longer assessed on their expertise at good lending, and at good loss mitigation when things go poorly. So the bank employees in charge of the home loans don't know a lot about the properties, and don't really much care what the actual losses are. Do you think there is a senior manager at JPM checking to ensure that they get at least 90% of the retail value of their most valuable properties? Obviously not. It is quite possible this loan was re-sold to another investor, so JPM doesn't care what the losses are in any case.

The US home loan system is screwed up really badly. No one cares about making bad loans. No one cares about mitigating losses. It's like a bad cross between the Soviet Union, where no one was held accountable for economic losses (unless they were in a critical sector) and normal private industry, where managers can be paid millions because they are accountable.

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of money,
Buying there-under, next to the sea!

Everyone loves the king of the sea,
Ever so kind and gentle is he,
Tricks he will do when clients appear,
And how they laugh when he's near!

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of mone-e-e-e-e,
Selling there-under, next the sea!

Yeah, I keep remembering all the comments Tanta made about the loss of real talent at banks as they looked to drive down the costs of underwriting and originating. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that the loss mitigation department is just as lacking for talent now. But it still seems crazy that the bank could be so far off on the current value of a property. Plus, what about all this nonsense about banks needing to pay bonuses to retain talent. Can't the pay czar hold up a story like this and tell Chase they have no talent!

patientrenter wrote:

If actual collections on deficiencies start to become significant then I'll be very surprised and interested. The political pressure to not collect in large amounts is enormous. I assure you that laws would be changed if the collection rates started to become significant.

By the way, mortgage loans in Germany and lots of other countries that have systems we regard as relatively socialist are full recourse - and they actually collect. But then they have a cultural bias that favors strict loan repayment. Argentina doesn't, nor does the US any more. Every country chooses its own economic system, reflecting the proclivities and relative ambitions of its citizens. The future then determines the economic winners and the losers. "

It depends on the state what the legal theory is re: recourse. Florida for example is a recourse state, California is not. However most lenders ask themselves if there is any blood left in the turnip that was the borrower, and say not enough to bother, given the political heat a serious pursuit of recourse would result in. (Think string up the bankers...) The only way to get out of the recourse judgement is of course to go bankrupt. Note that if you did a cash out re-fi Ca at least the cash out is recourse. (Its only purchase money that is non-recourse). Also for those who took cash out, when you default uncle will want income tax on the cash out. (The law exempts just purchase money from the tax on the 1099-C). IMHO using the house as an ATM is just plain stupid, the only reason to borrow more is for improvements which can add to the value.

"Potential buyers can find out what the flipper paid, estimate the cost of any work done by the flipper and make a starting bid that gives the flipper a reasonable but not outrageous return on the investment."

Works great if you're the only customer. The snag is, that this guy already knows what the buyers are looking for, how many there are, and has a good idea of what they'll pay. He's likely doing nothing more than cleaning these places.

curious wrote:

Can't the pay czar hold up a story like this and tell Chase they have no talent!

Ken Feinberg could, but I suspect that he is a fox in the henhouse, despite all the noise. For example, no one at a company should receive a bonus for a year when the company lost more shareholders' money than it earned, yet Feinberg is approving such bonuses. Total bonuses at banks and other financial firms are expected to be near peak levels, even though we all know they are losing taxpayers' money every day, and are held up only by continued massive support from the Fed and Treasury = the tapxayer.

Feinberg and Geithner and Bernanke and Summers and Dodd and Frank are all on the same page on what they want done, and bank reform as we think of it is not on their agenda.

ldmeier wrote:

It depends on the state what the legal theory is re: recourse. Florida for example is a recourse state, California is not. However most lenders ask themselves if there is any blood left in the turnip that was the borrower, and say not enough to bother, given the political heat a serious pursuit of recourse would result in. (Think string up the bankers...) The only way to get out of the recourse judgement is of course to go bankrupt. Note that if you did a cash out re-fi Ca at least the cash out is recourse. (Its only purchase money that is non-recourse). Also for those who took cash out, when you default uncle will want income tax on the cash out. (The law exempts just purchase money from the tax on the 1099-C). IMHO using the house as an ATM is just plain stupid, the only reason to borrow more is for improvements which can add to the value.

This one just never dies, does it?

Banks are not pursuing recourse on home loans. Total recourse collections are minuscule, a rounding error. It's a legal theory that is irrelevant in practice.

For once and for all, can anyone who has seen real data showing significant collections of recourse loans please post here? If not, then I vote for moving on. Sigh.

Edit: Oh, and I have yet to hear of the IRS actually collecting taxes on a home loan forgiveness. Again, it appears to be all theory, with very little actually collected. Data to the contrary, please post!

the bulk of forgiveness WRT home losses are in year two of a three year deal.

well past halfway.

I thought mp was posting something tonight.

For once and for all, just because recourse has historically not been of practical import doesn't mean it will continue that way.

It is easier than ever before to track assets hidden around the world. Things are different this time. Parking violations that have been ignored for decades suddenly rack up tickets when the municipality is facing default.

Cassandra Does Tokyo: 10 Surprises for 2010

just wanted to get this one in tonight for energy econ

1. Europeans demand new gas pricing regime with Russia as shale gas is proven to be present "in spades" throughout the continent.

-DISENFRANCHISED NATIVE AMERICAN NATURAL GAS ROYALTY ReCIPIENT.
hedged in lettuce, strawberries, and hazelnuts.

Sounds like he can just cruise and "kick back" for a while.

Fra Angelico...

:weeps: in the cell......

seriously, I am leaving....you cantt all be my friends.

not_going_to_post wrote:

It is not a rumor. San Diego is completely insane

Mr Bernanke is pleased to hear things are going according to plan. He thanks you for your report, and for his current use of your savings. Now get back to the salt mines of responsibility to labor for the benefit and profit of the irresponsible.

not_going_to_post wrote:

not_going_to_post

As you are renting, decide you are lucky and can move. Find someplace with less expensive real estate, that you like, and move there. Buy something in your new home city.

not_going_to_post,
Why would you put ALL your savings in a "no yield" checking account. Why don't you shop around for banks that give you some decent yield - maybe 2%. I know it is still low but it is better than 0%. If enough people in our country do this, it also puts pressure on your 0% yield bank to raise their rates.

I wish I had known that instead of sitting here moaning about the state of the economy, I could've been out there flipping hundreds of homes this year at 101% sale to listing price, 10 days average on market.

What are we belly aching about again? I'm starting to lose my focus here.

Because I went liquid, don't like money market accounts and really thought I was going to buy. ALL of my savings isn't as much as most here I would presume. I guess maybe I'd get .5% on a saving account, but why even bother?

To buy RE now would mean you don't care if you would lose your down payment to further drops in RE value if more shocks or deflationary forces hit the economy. Also, if employment is guaranteed to be stable that would help.
If someone suggests buying now tell them if you could use their money especially for the down payment that would be convincing enough to take the chance buying RE now in an instable economy..

It costs money to operate a bank, even with FDIC welfare. We could have a public option, like the Postal Service, which operates at a loss.

I'm certain we'd be better off nationally with such a public system in the long run.

Public systems can be corrupted too.

Of course.

barfly quoted:

was a buyer's market with some descent properties.

Oh, how they can descend...

I tried a 2% "online only" account. Has not been a good experience, can't wait to close it. In short, dodgy web interface, dodgy customer support. Not worth it, for me.
photon,
Maybe you should post about them at some review sites.

The house in that Jim The Realtor video is terrible, just terrible.

And it sits on a cliff.

God will take care of it.

Didn't know there were bank review sites. Now you tell me.

hey,patientrenter, I saw where a few days back, you asked me if I had heard anything, with regard to "financial services reform". I was referring to Barney Frank's hearings, held hast summer, early fall. I would be highly surprised (and pissed) if they just dropped the issue. They're probably doing all the smoke-filled back room stuff, now, and it'll have to be worked on by the House and Senate, but I'm willing to bet the final product will have some teeth, contrary to your seeming expectation. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time.

I recall President Obama saying in March or so, "I want bank reform legislation on my desk [presumably to sign or veto] by the end of the year."

I want bank reform legislation on my desk [presumably to sign or veto] by the end of the year.

They can't pass a bank reform package. They don't have enough money to give away to the banks, so they have to keep doing it under the table.

It's not like insurance reform where they can pass a law now and pretend they are going to spend the money in 2014.

Yes, God will certainly take care of it. Like the view from one tub to another. Down the cliff they all go with a good rain. It must say something about the human psyche that people are willing to spend huge amounts of money just to have a good view of nature.....in the city.

Perhaps the money on the sidelines should consider going long steel, Shanghai and HK heavy industry equities, cement, Australia-China shipping, light industrial fabrication...

China unveils 'world's fastest train link' - Yahoo! News

That's - I believe the the technical term is - an asston of track and rolling stock.

C

mof,
I agree with you that the interest rates are moot in the face of the USD devaluation. The point here is not just interest rates but moving the deposit base away from the banks. No changes are going to happen unless the banks become irrelevant. The only way we can do that is to remove their very reason for existence - kill their deposit base.

"The only way we can do that is to remove their very reason for existence -"

a little subversion in the air. I like it.

The media is crucial to keeping the public opinion and interest looking in the direction of scapegoats now that the damage to the economy has been done and can't or won't be undone.

"Financially, how can we force them? "

financially, like you said. Vote with your dollars. It's all you can do.

There is actually a market force at work in the economic decline because of failed business and lending models...consumers aren't spending as much and are delaying large purchases in many cases from not wanting to borrow and/or spend but also because many consumers now can't borrow and spend because of unemployment or job worry.
The consumer has been downsized from credit destruction and failed lending programs.
This is an ongoing destruction process and it's not creative just destructive.

"TBTF with their enablers Greenspan and Bernanke have been waging "war" on the savers and the "responsible" people. "

I thought they were "bumblers" who didn't know what they were doing. Which is it?

Well, bankers were able to exploit Greenspan's Randian idealism, and Bernanke's ivory tower lack of street smarts. I don't think "bumbler" and "enabler" are mutually exclusive.

Well, if the blame game is a waste of time, I'll keep wasting away. I'm more interested in truth and learning than growth of GDP anyway.

In 2010, interest rates will rise, but not by as much as you think.

Stocks and bonds will be flat to down. Emerging markets and other really risky sectors of the stock market will be down the most.

The U.S. dollar and ALL OTHER MAJOR CURRENCIES will be down. Because all major currencies will be down at the same time, none will seem to be as weak as they are relative to the rest. This will be the first leg in a massive, orchestrated multi-year global currency devaluation.

Oil will be flat to a bit up, hitting a high of about $100 but probably not ending as high.

Gold and silver will be up...more than you think. Gold to $1,500 at some point in 2010. Silver to $25 at some point. Patient gold/silver investors who can ride out the volatility will do well. It's a good year to be timing gold/silver purchases.

Counterpointer wrote:

That's - I believe the the technical term is - an asston of track and rolling stock.

metric asston, they are slightly larger...

What needs to happen is that cash management functions for individuals need to be separated from investment intermediation. Checking accounts and small balance savings accounts need to be offered by some sort of commercial enterprise that invests the deposits only in Treasury bills. Allowing Walmart to operate as a bank in this manner is a good example. This would be a low margin business that would be supported by the existing retail infrastructure.

Individuals seeking greater returns would have to go to investment companies, without government backstops, that would invest in specific sectors. This would mean that mortgage lending would cease to have any connection to transactional checking and savings accounts. Mortgage lenders wouldn't be able to "cross-sell" other financial products like insurance.

Gawd, I know that, but I was writing for a largely Merican audience...

C

rich said:
Stop spending money you don't have to spend. Especially, stop borrowing money to make stupid consumer expenses. Pay down your debts and tell your banks and lenders to get f*cked. If you are really under water on real estate, consider your legal options and get out from under the debt in the smartest way you can.

Heard Charles Payne on talk radio advocating much the same for the coming year. Mentioned several times that many people are going to be facing hard decisions including walking away...which he seemed to be advocating.

1 currency now -yogi wrote:

Dawg: I'm in. Let's set a day for cash withdrawal. I suggest not using a standard $ number as it draws suspicion. How about January 2: post-hangover day.

Good idea. BTW the $242 was from the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" when there was a run on the Bailey Building & Loan.

that must be like 40000 inflation adjusted

"BTW the $242 was from the movie "It's A Wonderful Life""

A movie I can happily say I have never seen. Good pull though.

Nytol.

With interest rates going up...that will be another nail in consumer borrowing in addition to consumer insolvency. The economy is rigged with so many credit and declining demolitions, the discussion of any hope for resolution without Bust is fictional
I need to get back to being scared of terror. Focus. On our real problems. Everyone hates the U.S.

Karl D is really getting worked up about terror and has posted a long rant about it.

Karl wants to boycott the airlines...needs to go in the Merchants of Fear column.

Didn't FDR say that the only thing we had to fear was "fear" itself. Sort of the opposite approach to today's government, no?

"I need to get back to being scared of terror. Focus. On our real problems. Everyone hates the U.S. "

Apart from the guys you bomb regularly, Americans are not generally hated abroad Actually, it is the Brits with their "these natives do not know anything and let's all piss on this stupid statue"-attitude and piggish drunken behavior which are more hated. Not to mention the bad teeth and very modern ac/dc / iron maiden fashion back from the 1985

You just cannot go with five Brits (from working class) for a beer or two without two of them fighting, one puking his guts out and the rest two singing badly some football club song. Aaarrgggh.

mp wrote:

And it sits on a cliff.

Poe wrote a good story about that house.

Legalize marijuana and instead of that, you have giggling people with the munchies, riots after soccer events turn into sing ins with everyone in the right key significantly cutting down on noise pollution, domestic violence afterward takes a nose dive too; the drive home might be slower but it would be a lot safer.

That's a new export which we would excel at and be in high demand. Of course this would cause chaos in Mexico as cartels lose their clout as a whole market sector undergoes a paradigm shift, criminal enterprises in the US that don't pay taxes, all of a sudden get legit and pay taxes; a high tariff on imported weed wouldn't be a bad idea either. Boomers and others take a chill pill instead of going to tea party revolts. lol. Bill didn't inhale but a generation who did get the picture.

I've noted that bling is going for bargain basement prices (despite the pop in glod). I've been tempted to do the same but Ima big chicken (and lazy too). I figure if I've thought of it, millions of others have too. But great story therealxchick57. Raises the temptation factor.

It seems our esteemed Senator Harry Reid proposed a bill to tax indoor tanning salons, hopefully raising $2.7-billion over 10-years.

“Long-term exposure to natural or artificial sources of ultraviolet rays increases the risk of developing skin cancer,” Jim Manley, a spokesman for the Nevada Democrat, said in an e- mail. “Women who use tanning beds more than once a month are 55 percent more likely to develop malignant melanoma, the most fatal form of skin cancer.”

Tanning Salons Say Tax Would Trigger Job Cuts, Store Closings - BusinessWeek

Is it the income revenue, the "we're your Mommy and taking care of you" angle, or is it the FedGov dictating lifestyles? I also noticed they pulled out the "hormone card" in the woman reference.........maybe it's all four.........If/When Reid gets voted out of office, I'm sure he'll return to Searchlight and remind his wife to stay out of the desert sun more due to the higher chance of skin cancer. Do you notice his son Rory,(who is running for NV governor) doesn't even use his last name while "electioneering"? We definitely DO need another lawyer politician though.

We have our eye on you.

JD<
What was your movie suggestion yesterday?
"Fireman's Ball"?

......I never realized it, but CR is tied to his 'puter' more than I'm tied to my cows.........tough life.........

.....Ahhhh......(It took a search) I wasn't ever exposed to Doc Suess while growing up............nor were the kids much that I can recall.

I know a bit about Mr Frank's FIRE connections and loyalties

As a former constituent of Frank's, the most critical point is that a majority of his middle class and upper middle class constituents are exposed to six figure losses should their homes be priced correctly and fairly, as if proper underwriting were being done, and normal interest rates being applied. He must have hundreds of calls each week demanding housing prices stay up, no matter the cost.

JD<
Thanks.

"The pending health care bills in Congress.....are projected to add nothing to the deficit over 10 years."

.....I want some of what they're smoking............

So, only a small amount of properties are being bought @ trustee sales, which means there's a huge overhang of dreck, in Tijuana-adjacent.

And by the way, Cliff-diving comes with the territory, eh?

Black Star Ranch wrote:

CR is tied to his 'puter' more than I'm tied to my cows

just flashed on two shocking images involving more than one person in each

Obummer's presser on Meet the Pressed said "...we added air marshalls to international flights coming into this country."

okay

where was the air marshall on the flight in question

Jobs~

Think of all the new air marshals flying frequent miles...

I can't see good things ahead for the airline biz.

Maybe they should require that all passengers fly buck naked, with no carryons.

There is no limit to fear-induced paranoia. And it doesn't lead to a good place in personal freedom.

He meant they added the Marshalls yesterday so he come on the teevee and say... "...we added air marshalls to international flights coming into this country."

It's interesting you should arrive at this conclusion, JD. When TSA ramped up, I predicted the day would come when all passengers would surrender all positions at check-in, and be issued white Tyvec jumpsuits before being allowed to fly.

not_going_to_post:
"... The first time homebuyer tax credit and FHA lending to anything with a pulse has easily had a 50k boost in asking prices over a year ago. What would have been a 200k property last year is a 260-270k property now. Seems like gravity has been suspended. Almost the entire low end is flipped properties. ..."

Same story here in The OC. The government programs (FHA loans, first time buyers credit, ...) are enriching the flippers. Court sales are cash only so there is little competition. The properties are flipped in weeks to FHA buyers who are buying with essentially nothing down, so prices are excessive. In the end this is a transfer of Federal money to the flippers. The real kicker is that a majority of the flippers are former subprime brokers.