It's all my fault. I didn't go shopping.

America is a nation of keep shoppers.

(with apologies to Napoleon...)

yoy total sales?

volker the viking wrote:

and they'll get the CC bill just about yule time

I wonder how many people are of the "buy now and I'll worry next year" mindset.
~splat

All: in the hoocoobluetwo theme, the links on the hoocoodanode home page point again at the original CR posts, as they do in Legacy and Mobile.

I've been trying to find overall yoy airline ticket sales for the busiest travel holiday of the year...so far no luck. Anyone out there know where those can be found?

I saw a report that online sales increased this year; that will likely eat into tax revenues again of states and municipalities.

COBRA coverage subsidy ends soon for many - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

On average, the typical family pays $1,069 a month to continue employer-sponsored health coverage, according to Families USA, a health advocacy group based in Washington, D.C.

Some Senate Democrats want not only to extend the subsidy to 15 months and push the expiration date to next June, but also want to boost it to 75 percent. A similar measure was introduced in the House.

HollywoodHack wrote:

is spending the money on sales tax enforcement really cost effective?

If there's no enforcement businesses will eventually "catch on" and sales taxes will keep dropping. We should just implement a Chinese based enforcement system, and shoot a few tax evaders in public. That would probably increase revenues greatly.

Dan Walters: California debt may be half a trillion dollars - Sacramento Politics - California Politics | Sacramento Bee

Conservatively, then, California is probably more than $600 billion in debt. Perhaps we shouldn't sweat another $11.1 billion. Or perhaps it will be the straw that breaks our back.

Last year, 172 million shoppers spent an average of 372.52 each, for a total spend of 64,073,440,000

This year, 195 million shoppers spent an average of 343.31 each, for a total spend of 66,945,450,000

Assuming some double counting of shoppers, it could simply indicate that the shoppers were shopping more.

Anyway, the total spend was up.

How bad is that?

You guys that didn't shop this weekend are a bunch of fucking, unpatriotic losers! How the hell can we have an economy without spendthrifts? Tell me, please! I stayed away from the malls and the shops just so you guys could carry the load without my being in your way, and what the hell do you do? You stay home.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Perhaps we shouldn't sweat another $11.1 billion. Or perhaps it will be the straw that breaks our back.

nah, the back is already broken but shhhh...its a secret.

http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/blog/_archives/2009/10/19/4355893.html

Not a Real American

But CA is the 8th largest economy in the world. It is only fitting that we have a national debt in the top 20.

One product that's in demand this holiday season: canned pumpkin for pumpkin pies. The harvest was bad, and much of the crop went underwater, and there's no more canned pumpkin in the pipeline until next September. If you want a pumpkin pie for Christmas and don't want to cook your own pumpkin or squash, better pick up a can now.

Canned pumpkin shortage proving very real -- chicagotribune.com

Interesting to note that 85 percent of the canned pumpkin for all-American pumpkin pies comes from a Swiss-controlled company.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Probably true. If they extend it this time, neither Party will be able to cancel it ever. Elimination of COBRA payments will then count as additional "savings" for a national system. Pretty good strategy on the Dems part.

Are you willing to give them that much credit? I just think it's just instinctive can-kicking.

You had company, picosec.

I didn't go shopping, Friday, Saturday, (oops, bought a gallon of milk,) or Today.

Doing my bit to bring this, (cough, cough,) economy to its knees.

What's up? You might get what you're after

Bob Dobbs wrote:

I just think it's just instinctive can-kicking.

Probably is some of that, but politics is mostly the strategy of making the other side look bad. That's what make it so much fun. So, setting up the Republicans to vote against either: "da middle class" or a basic Republican ideology would - for sure - be something the Dems would be VERY aware of.

I don't do much shopping as we get pretty much anything we want (with need in mind) all year. I never have been a consumer economy believer and trying to reinflate the bubble won't work anyway.

I'd rather go to Dubai than go out shopping.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Bob Dobbs wrote: 85 percent of the canned pumpkin for all-American pumpkin pies comes from a Swiss-controlled company.

Does Faux News know about this?

A quick search of their website shows no mention of the pumpkin story at all. But since Switzerland is is a prosperous, has a national health system that covers the entire population for less than we pay, and is not especially socialist -- Fox News probably ignores its existence.

blew the wad early, while they had it.

Ask yourself why they track web and foot traffic combined. I know personally every purchase involved both this year. Sat at Frys was quiet and many of the free after rebate were still on the shelves late.
Hey Ken iPhone posting!

"Average Spending Down"

There were hardly any deep discounts this year.

I'd love to debate this one with you when the appropriate time comes.

I wonder what Greg's Hoocoodanode handle is. I have a handful of guesses.

Eschaton

(Greg Dawson, that is)

broward wrote:

I was thinking like "debt addiction".

There fixed that one for ya.

gabyjan wrote:

bob dobbs
yep libby owned by nestle which is swiss.

The Swiss control our American pumpkin pies: Libby canned pumpkin (85 percent of the market), and Carnation evaporated milk, the other major ingredient besides eggs -- another Nestle brand, now. I found only Carnation and store-brand evap milk on the shelf; and the store-brand was Carnation-made, too -- same printed production codes on the can bottom, same embossed letters on the can top.

Maybe we should add a little chocolate to the pie to acknowledge our Swiss masters.

"NRF: Number of Shoppers Up, Average Spending Down "

Selling out of stock on loss leaders with little follow through ought to make the income statement look positively ghoulish...

There were hardly any deep discounts this year.

Just wait until Fat-White-Guy-With-Bushy-Beard Day gets nearer.

picosec wrote:

inefficiency creates employment

Definitely. You can see this at work in my Zombie bank everyday. Over the last 10 years, so much of loan processing has been automated that all that's left is the people that are actually forced to physically talk to people. And these people get paid very little If we could figure out a way to eliminate all customer interaction we'd do so.

I love to listen to "futurists" talk about a future of pure automation. Another case of people being unable to project ahead the real consequences of their "predictions". Most people never played chess, I guess.

broward wrote:

I was thinking like "drug addiction".

All addictions (drugs, religion, sex, whatever) bring happiness, just depends how long it lasts.

Greek Orthodox holiday schedule.

If they seize control of the Cool-Whip supply, all is lost.

Cool-Whip

the people who have money will shop later in the season... to avoid the crowds, and scavenge the good product when retailers start panicking.

it's going to be a better holiday season than we think

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

I saw a report that online sales increased this year; that will likely eat into tax revenues again of states and municipalities.

Maybe online sales will crack the 7% of total spend mark this year? (total spend throughout the year IIRC)

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Haven't you made a beginning by firing many of your customers?

We're a Zombie, we don't need no stinking customers! (From another movie you probably haven't seen).

mp wrote:

America's Research Group is expecting final sales for the season to be down -2.9%

If that is accurate, how big is the retail graveyard after the holidaze?

im not sure about chocolate on pumpkin pie.

I like the combination of colors. Not sure how it would taste, though.

shopper up, spending down => more peeps that would otherwise not hassle with black friday out to save & spend less.

Overall spending going down this year.

we don't need no stinking customers! (From another movie you probably haven't seen).

I saw it. Alfonso Bedoya.

If that is accurate, how big is the retail graveyard after the holidaze?

I don't know. Haven't seen any numbers on retail bankruptcies.

However, ARG is very damned good with the their forecasts.

Last year, IIRC, they were off by only one tenth of one percent. They have a very good record.

gary
all is well cool whip is by kraft foods,the 2nd largest food in the world, right behind nestle.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Alfonso Bedoya.

HA! Jezz. I never knew this. I always thought it was blazing saddles. Learn something new every day.

Stinking badges - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^ Popularly misquoted as "Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!", most likely from Blazing Saddles in which the line was so worded.

This year's NRF report says that 28.5% of shoppers shopped on-line. Last year's Black Friday report  claimed that 34% shopped on-line!

There MUST be a different interpretation between these two reports as a 20% drop in on-line shoppers doesn't make any sense.

Angry Saver wrote:

gotta say, the deflation in computers and electonic goods is and continues to be huge. I could buy a new laptop computer with ~ 4X the capacity of my existing computer for ~ $200 less than I paid three years ago. Also, 32" flascreen TVs were selling for under $500.

Don't know what that says for what you're getting. OTOH, I shopped there for a name-brand long lens -- all the camera shops in my county have gone bust -- and the price I ended up paying online is only 2/3 of what they were asking, with tax. I would expect to see Best Bay fine down its product line to concentrate on things that are harder to buy online -- because of size, because you want to "try it on," etc.

oh now picosec, don't go parsing numbers too closely or the NSA will come after you for not drinking enough of your daily high fructose kool-aid.

No I don't think I did.

But wasn't that happish? I mean he left the plow and went off
to battle successfully right?

I trust the NRF spinmeisters as much as I trust the NAR. Assuming the NRF can hire a few of those "climate scientists" from the East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit, sales should be pretty sweet for the next few months!

"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!"

is from Treasure of the Sierra Madre

"Badgers? We don' need no steenkin' badgers." is from UHF

During the late '50s, on KGO-TV in San Francisco, there used to be a guy--Al something or other--who had a morning program.

He wore a sombrero and was always using the Sierra Madres line.

As long as you have a job and money you can live on.

Most of the jobs are bs and unnecessary. We have 19 million vacant housing units and we produce a surplus of food with less than 2% of our workforce.

We produce plenty. Our ills stem from poor distribution (wealth & income) and misguided desires (wanting more stuff rather than more free time), both of which are easily fixable. But they won;t be fixed - that IS the fundamental issue. And it is all founded on the notion that deflation is harmful.

nanoo
does that nsa stand for not seasonally adjusted or the other one national spy assoc?

Then in a moment of romanticism we decided to replace the gutters instead.

Splort! Now I need to clean the monitor.

Don't tell her that a lot of her candy comes from nestle plants in China either using some of those fine milk products they have. Cadbury plants are there too. That should be real efficient for nestle then when they win their hostile bid for Cadbury. I just love globalization. snark/

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

Don't tell her that a lot of her candy comes from nestle plants in China either using some of those fine milk products they have.

She can buy All-American Hershey chocolate products -- if she checks the label and avoids the ones that are made in Mexico now.

yes gabyjan, the ones that drive around in vans labeled "Exterminator" on them.

Unless you grow your own pumpkin or winter squash (many are just as good, if not better, for pie). At least that will then be from the US (assuming those who make the pies live in the US).

Could I get a job as a shopper? I suppose it wouldn't be so odious if I was getting paid. If I did get a job as a shopper, would it pay enough to be able to afford to shop?

azurite
im not sure about the seeds being american made, lot of designer seeds (dont know whatelse to call them.

Start growing heirloom [whatever]. They're not hybrids, so the seeds grow "true" from year to year.

Off to the library now. Our kiddo has an Organic final coming up and she'd like to stare at the book in a different colored room.

I'll stop by tonight. Posting is far more fun than lurking.

Sandblaster wrote:

Our kiddo has an Organic final coming up and she'd like to stare at the book in a different colored room.

i hope that's organic chemistry and not a study in how to shop at whole foods.

Angry Saver wrote:

That's my point. We've had declining real wages for the majority for about 40 years. More an more, the inflation accrues to fewer and fewer. Inflation was supposed to spread prosperity. It did just the opposite. That's why I keep saying that Bernanke and others need to revisit their theories on inflation.

Plus, even if inflation does increase output (history shows it doesn't based on real GDP), what good is it if the majority of the increased output ends up in the hands of the few?

WORD. Add to that ~17% decrease in the value of the dollar over about the last decade, a GDP that increasingly was from financial institutions ~30% over the last 10 years and its even more abysmal. Whats even worse than that is the percentage of taxation from those with declining real wages far outstripping that of the top 5% and of course corporate malfeasance and tax evasion.

Angst-R-Us. We are not doing our part this year to help keep American retailers solvent. Sorry, but we have all agreed to go with a gift-less Christmas. We did it also last year. Weird at first, but more satisfying.

mp wrote:

If that is accurate, how big is the retail graveyard after the holidaze?

I thought Macy's would go last year.

Nanoo Nanoo,

One more point. Inflation doesn't tell the whole story either, you have to consider debt levels and distribution too. Current eCONomic models ignore both the level of debt relative to output and the distribution of the debt.

E-CONomists cheered while falling incomes were replaced with rising household debt levels. WTF - as though that trend could CONtinue indefinitely. Is it any wonder the system was ready to collapse? The so-called "assets" were nothing more than unpayable debts.

No way could all our imbalances be ignored without corruption and willful ignorance.

Bernanke and the fed have some splainin to do. No way should they simply be allowed to paper over this epic fraud.

im not sure about the seeds being american made.

I get most of my seeds from Territorial Seeds in Cottage Grove, OR. They do some of their own seed production, but also get some from Holland (similar climate perhaps? Or Holland produces lots of seeds?), they do have their own testing grounds as they specialize in veg/fruit varieties that will do well on the western side of the Cascades. Territorial also offers organic seeds for some varieties.

Other seed companies that probably do not carry "designer" (do you mean GMO?) seeds: Seeds of Change, Abundant Life, Johnny's Selected Seeds (for Maine, VT, etc. climates), Peace Seeds (OR), Thyme Garden (herbs & some flowers only, in OR) and then there are the seed exchanges (such as Blum Seeds, Idaho or used to be)--that can be a great way to get seeds. And if you buy open pollinated or heirloom seeds, you can also save seeds yourself. I do that routinely for nasturtiums, calendulas & cornflowers, parsley (actually, it seeds itself), and I've had some lavender seed itself. Plus I've started herbs from cuttings, etc., there are a number of herbs that are very easy to propagate from cuttings. Squash should be pretty easy to save seed from as long as you grow only one kind--I think it's a bee pollinated plant which means that there's lots of opportunity for cross-breeding unless you bag the flowers & pollinate by watercolor brush.

A friend has been gardening on the same land for what must be 30 years or more & growing what she calls flint corn (for making cornbread) for probably as close to that many years, from seed she saves. By now I think she's bred a variety of flint corn that is suited for her local climate (foothills of the OR coast range) & she told me that when she first moved to her area ('70's), there was a variety of dried bean that was grown (commercially) by a local family. It's since disappeared, she still regrets not saving some.

It's awhile since I've researched local seeds & availability around the US, but probably, if you look, you'll find someone in your region (maybe the agricultural extension office in your area might be of some assistance?), who's been saving seeds or preserving heirloom apple varieties, etc.& is willing to share or exchange.

Angry Saver wrote:

Inflation doesn't tell the whole story either

I thought I read someplace that: Deflation was bad for those that hold assets. And inflation was bad for those that hold cash. The entire point of inflation was to force the useless cash hoarders (savers) to invest in assets pushing up the price benefiting those with assets.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Deflation was bad for those that hold assets.

Deflation is bad for people who are in debt. If you own the asset outright (no mortgage, no car loan) then deflation as big a problem.

I won't go on my Glass-Steagall rant again; however, for all the rancor on the hill over fiscal responsibility and then to DISCOURAGE actual savings of that peasant class, DISCOURAGE ownership of anything...well, what can I say? Its hilarious to watch the two-step being done on both sides of the aisle. Whats even more hilarious is how clueless they appear to be that the peasants have figured it out. Whats next won't be pretty.

azurite
thank you very much for the infomation ill give the ag extension office a call, my back yard neighbor put out tomatoes,squash, cucumbers, didnt really do anything, what he got was tiny. was glad i didnt try but now might be a good time to check into it. i do love tomatoes,green beans,potatoes, etc etc.
thanks again

azurite wrote:

Seeds of Change,

A popular brand lately.

A popular brand lately.

Although it would seem that those who planted them, do not yet know how to encourage strong growth of those few seeds that have germinated.

I don't want to believe that tears & blood are needed for fertilizer.

CoolWhip?......."ReadyWhip"?............you traitors............

Also, there's Seed Savers

stickydownside
thanks for the link.

Summary and a Look Ahead 

For Food, Gardening, Sustainable Agriculture discussions, visit La Vida Locavore

Search Diaries for Anonymous Bosch to see my bountiful garden in a very small, urban space.

Credit enema is coming wrote:

I want to see the sales tax revenues

Aye, theres the rub.

LBD, sounds like I was trying to get into a pissing contest. I wasn't. I didn't bother to look it up, but probably canned pumpkins were processed by Carnation or some other US canner which was bought out by Nestle. The pumpkins were prolly grown near Peoria by local farmers. Hondas on the other hand are assembled in the USA. I''ve heard but don't remember what percentage of the components were manufactured in America including many of the value added ones.

(One OT tip: canned 100% pumpkin (pure pumpkin, no spices or additives...) is great for stopping diarrhea in dogs. Dogs love it. Two tbs is right dose for my 80 lb lab. Put the rest in equal portions in plastic wrap and freeze them until you need them again.)