Jingle mail
Jingle mail
Jingle all the way
Oh what fun
It is to rob
A banker of his pay

Is this thing on?

Danny wrote:
He proposes a federal gas tax of $1/gallon. 40 cents to paying down the deficit. 40 cents to universal health care. 10 cents to medicare above that. 10 cents to something or other else (I forgot). That is the best solution to 90% of our problems. And yet it's off the table. Why? Because $4 gas is unacceptable? It's $9 in Denmark, $7 in the U.K. The populous needs to say to our leaders, 'it's ok to ask us to do something hard.'

The government already takes well over 50% of my income. That should be more than enough... Why can't they fund the above via spending cuts?

If 23% are underwater, then probably 40% are underwater. And if 40% are underwater, probably more...

Supply and demand.

CR,

Didn't Deutsch Bank have a projection that put 45% underwater by some future date? Are we tracking their expectations?

Ha! Thanks CR search function.

Negative Equity: 16 Million Homeowners Underwater

From Bloombeg: ‘Underwater’ U.S. Mortgages May Hit 48%, Deutsche Bank Reports
[Bloomie] The percentage of properties “underwater” is forecast to rise to 48 percent, or 25 million homes, as property prices drop through the first quarter of 2011, according to [Deutsche Bank] analysts Karen Weaver and Ying Shen.
[CR] I guess Deutsche Bank didn't get the memo about house prices finding a bottom.

Interesting that things do not seem to have changed much since August. I guess the FTHB credit has helped arrest the fall for a while.

I believe the fallacy in this argument is that there are jobs for the homeowners to move to.
~splat

There are potential jobs, just low paying ones. If they'd get rid of the minimum wage, I'd hire some people myself.

If they get rid of the minimum wage, I hope your employees get rid of you.

There are potential jobs, just low paying ones.

That makes a consumer driven economy kinda tough.
~splat

Rate it AAA
120+ LTV
Cash-out $50k
for my HDTV

Hummer out on town
Drawing chicks my way
Just 3.5 down
Thank you, FHA!

Oh, Jingle mail
Jingle mail
Jingle all the way...

A consumer driven economy is never sustainable anyway. I fail to see how offering someone a job at $4/hr is hurting them in anyway. They can take it or leave it and it gives them an option they didn't have before.

Nemo wrote:

That's why it is so important to inflate house prices.

The funny . . . or sad . . .part is that your statement is so true.

My firstitude is a previous and primary firstosity.

Actually I wonder when Cramer will use harspex (consulting entrails of a chicken) to see where the market is going. Likely its about as good. To be politically correct I would get a rubber chicken and put a piece of paper with fluctuate on in, ask the question what will the market do, cut the chicken open and get J Pierpont Morgans absolutely irrefutable comment, it will fluctuate. Alternatively get a tea leaf reader, brew some tea without a tea bag and then have the reader read the leaves.

Wisdom Speaker,

The key here is that the move-up market stems almost entirely from mortgaged homeowners with equity. Those that own their home outright aren't going anywhere.

IOW, stick a fork in the move-up market.

splat wrote:

Does that include healthcare & dental ?

Why, do you want to submit an application?

"[N]egative equity "is an outstanding risk hanging over the mortgage market," said Mark Fleming, chief economist of First American Core Logic."

And heart burn is the outstanding risk of swallowing a live hand grenade.

That guy got paid for that spot of brilliance.

The mind boggles.

That's 23% after decanting the early defaulters.

Digging a little deeper, the raw data (that one can reach without a pesky WSJ subscription, anyway) is this:

Nearly 10.7 million households had negative equity in their homes in the third quarter, according to First American CoreLogic, a real-estate information company based in Santa Ana, Calif.

U.S. has about 100 million households. About 2/3 of those are "homeowners". About 1/3 of homeowners actually own; the rest are homedebtors with mortgages. 10.7 million households is about 1/4 of those with mortgages, 1/6 of homeowners, and only 1/10 of households.

CR and the WSJ have the headlines right, and the first sentence of CR's quote from WSJ is grossly in error.

Meanwhile, TJ and The Bear wrote:

Those that own their home outright aren't going anywhere.

Well, I know that some of them sell and move/downsize to a nicer retirement climate... but that doesn't aid the move-up market either!

So the government has been hell bent on driving home prices up for the last two years... Doing EVERYTHING I could have dreamed up AND things I never would have thought possible to increase home prices and bring more and more buyers to the table and STILL we are 23% underwater?

At what point will Obama announce the Caterpillar housing stimulus? The one where he saves/creates 200 jobs at the Cat factory because he orders a few hundred bull dozers to start fixing the "supply problem" in housing.

Wisdom,

Let me summarize sportsfan's comments for you:

Since George W. Bush doubled the debt but simultaneously devalued the dollar by half, he in fact maintained a balanced budget.

[I think that about covers it.]

At what point will Obama announce the Caterpillar housing stimulus?

Alternatively a govt. guaranteed pricing option. Someone sells a house for less than it's worth the govt. makes up the difference to the lender ! It's simple, effective and helps channel more money to the people who count ie. megabanks who can help fund both lobbyists and campaigns ! It's a political win-win.
~splat

I read an article a while back that basically made the case that doing the exact opposite of what Cramer advises will make you money.

Bad joke, TJ. My words speak for themselves and you are being disrespectful.

Bearded Spock wrote:

I read an article a while back that basically made the case that doing the exact opposite of what Cramer advises will make you money.

Just don't let Cramer and the anti-Cramer touch each other! The ensuing burst of antimatter-annihilation gamma rays will cost you a large fraction of your portfolio in medical bills! (I'm trying really hard not to reach for a "double" and make a wisecrack about future ineligibility for private healthcare ... or about how long it will take you to get treated with ObamaCare...)

If 25% are underwater, HELOC portfolios must have shrunk tremendously. Anybody comment?

Wisdom Speaker, the whole problem is upon us, no doubt, but to claim that some taxes really aren't taxes and thus can't be counted misses the whole point. Some taxes are just more regressive than others, Social Security and sales taxes among them, which, coincidentally, are not dropping nearly as fast as progressive taxes such as personal and corporate income taxes.

Governments get to decide which taxes to collect at what rates and what so-called entitlements to pay out at what rates. We, the people, just get to determine who happens to be the government at any point in time.

OT, but just found this awesome quote in a Martin Armstrong essay:

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work, stead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, ca 55BC

"HELOC portfolios must have shrunk tremendously."

My models show them not only holding their value, but actually contributing to a significant increase on the income statement and balance sheet.

Comrade Misean is Dope wrote:

My models show them not only holding their value, but actually contributing to a significant increase on the income statement and balance sheet.

My models show me their bellybuttons when I take their pictures.

Quit calling names and show why his reasoning is in error. Stop acting childish.

mE HAVE BIG iDea.

Bearded Spock wrote:

Quit calling names and show why his reasoning is in error. Stop acting childish.

Go back to the last thread and read for yourself why his reasoning is in error.

You can also read how he blasts Democrats and praises Republicans while pretending to be bipartisan.

Does anyone want to know where the trillions of dollars the Fed has spent went?

Other than to GS and indirect funding of the politicos ?
~splat

"Why does anybody still watch CNBC? "

To see if they bring back the hot Australian chick...this time in a bit more revealing attire...and of course the comedy. It's like a live version of The Onion.

CNBC still interviews Meredith Whitney...

sportsfan wrote:

You can also read how he blasts Democrats and praises Republicans while pretending to be bipartisan.

Anyone that reads the thread will note that I blast both parties, just deriding any effort to falsely elevate one's so-called accomplishments over another.

p.s.: Sorry to pollute the new thread, guys & gals.

Not Irving Fisher wrote:

Why can't they fund the above via spending cuts?

And your five top candidate categories for cuts (that are big enough to matter) are?

Economic "Scientism"

Economics is the religion of liability free fictitious entities. Commercials are its prayers. Self interest its highest virtue.

sportsfan wrote:

You can also read how he blasts Democrats and praises Republicans while pretending to be bipartisan.

You want "fair and balanced"? That implies that their are only two perspectives to choose from.

You STILL haven't made an argument. You just threw out bald assertions. I've been following and, if he's engaged in sophism, I haven't detected it so perhaps you'd be so kind as to show where his line or reasoning went astray.

"What channel is CNBC? "

English? Just guessing.

Yeah it's in English ... sort of.

Kidding ... newly repatriated Canadian.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

You posited that inflation should be considered in figuring overall debt obligations, which is (to put it nicely) total bullshit.

I said absolutely no such thing. The only thing I said remotely close to that is that a dollar paid out in Social Security benefits does not have the purchasing power of a dollar paid in decades before. Even Wisdom Speaker accepted that point, though he said future liabilities must be accounted for in some manner.

Among the other things I said is that whether and to what extent the government will pay out any Social Security benefits in the future is a matter for the current and future governments. Anybody that thinks they are "entitled" to Social Security, but not yet at qualification age, is just smoking

I also said taxes collected had to be counted as taxes collected, regardless of source. That's another way of saying intra-governmental debt doesn't count.

I was talking about the body of water just south of Dover.

Anywho...why do idiots assume that voluntarily accepting a contractual wage rate is the same as slavery?

Why do they assume that employing men with guns to shoot those who don't follow the mandates of a bunch of morons whose only skill is to win rigged popularity contests every few years makes the rest of us anything other than slaves.

I'll say again...the mind boggles.

Comrade Misean is Dope wrote:

I was talking about the body of water just south of Dover.

Got it ... a bit late.

To maintain LTV constraints, Banks must have reduced HELOC amounts. Does that not follow, therefore, that HELOC portfolios have shrunk and Banks HELOC depts. are busy managing collections and avoiding defaults?

Comrade Misean is Dope wrote:

Anywho...why do idiots assume that voluntarily accepting a contractual wage rate is the same as slavery?

I dunno. Because they went to public school?

Sucker born every minute? Sheep are bred to be shorn?

C

"Because they went to public school? "

Well that was the whole reason for youth indoctrination prison camps. Pretty damned effective.

Military would be a good start

Even if we figure fifty thousand dollars underwater for each of the 5.3 million, isn't that only 250 billion of negative equity?

Can't Geithner go to Congress and ask for a homeowner bailout of that amount? And Treasury can send out checks. The checks would have to be used to pay down mortgages. Which would make banks solvent again. Voila. Problem solved. Even China would be pleased, because the owners of mortgages could resume buying crap they don't need.

For threats, Geithner can just remind Congress that there are 300 million guns in private hands in this country. Pitchforks are so Middle Ages.

unirealist wrote:

Can't Geithner go to Congress and ask for a homeowner bailout of that amount?

I suspect there would be a significant number of renters and homeless (many also with guns or knives) that would not like home borrowers being let off the hook without the non-home-borrowers getting their checks also.

edit: add in those who paid their mortgage already to the list of angry non-borrowers.

As Nemo says, it is an official policy to support home values. But my question is, just what exactly do TPTB think the end-game is here? If they prop prices up to peak bubble values. No one will be able to afford them. There will be no first time homebuyers. Even if you drop down payment requirements to 0 and 50-year mortgages become standard, there won't be enough FTHB. Why? Because equivalent rents will be so much cheaper. The correction HAS TO HAPPEN, and it will as sure as the apple falls. Impediments to that correction simply inflate our debt.

JimPortlandOR wrote:

assume we had a national referendum to cut 50% or more of any of the above, would the public OK those cuts?

No, but if they keep their funding with 50% devalued dollars, it amounts to the same thing. Of course that means that you and I will get a 50% pay cut also, but I can't stop that.

If I had my way, I'd repudiate the entire national debt, sell off USG assets (like national forests, parks, buildings, etc) to fund Social security, etc and eliminate withholding altogether. I know. I'm smoking

Danny wrote:

just what exactly do TPTB think the end-game is here?

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. I'm also wondering what the end game in the Afpak war.

just what exactly do TPTB think the end-game is here?

End game?

They have an end game?

unirealist and others - please, please please stop giving congress ideas. government paying you the difference if you are forced to sell your home for less than you bought it for? obama bulldozing vacant houses to clear supply? geithner sending checks to pay off the balance of every homedebtor? STOP BRAINSTORMING FOR THEM.

Anyway, even if you enacted all these ludicrous measures, prices would still revert to match incomes.

Furthermore, with $250B you could end homelessness or cure cancer. Bailing out homedebtors who made bad bets would be indefensible.

It was the state that abolished slavery, by trampling on private property rights.

As Nemo says, it is an official policy to support home values.

Yes, with one minor correction: Never confuse "price" with "value".

You are so wise, Nemo.

edit: add in those who paid their mortgage already to the list of angry non-borrowers.

Like me.

The proposition was a sarcastic one. But really, what's the difference between supporting the housing market with FHA loan guarantees and Fed MBS purchase, or simply bailing out homeowners with mortgages?

Either way the currency is trashed because future taxpayers can't afford to pay back the necessary borrowing.

I think there's an awful lot of breath and brainpower being wasted on analyzing the situation and trying to figure out how to fix it, when there is no solution.

I have noticed an increase of the Foreclosure filings here in Hawaii, but a large number of them are being re-scheduled causing even more of a glut.
It seems the banks are getting serious because our property values have actually started to fall and the longer they wait to reposes and sell it, the more they lose.

I have also noted that while there was a rush to buy homes in the last few months most likely due to FTHB, a good percentage are falling out of escrow, I can only assume becuase the buyer could not finalize a loan, or perhaps the appraisal did not come back at the bided price.

Has anyone seen any reports that cover this trend? I'm trying to figure out how far behind we are from the west coast, right now I'm thinking as much as a year and a half if not more.

If this keeps up I might be able to afford a SFH in around three to four years.
That is if the Government does not double their efforts to keep home prices un-affordable.

I can't understand your "stolen property" nonsense.

England outlawed slavery by a series of judicial decisions and statutes. You may no longer "sell yourself" into slavery. Maybe that's why you don't understand the minimum wage.

1 currency now -yogi wrote:

I can't understand your "stolen property" nonsense.

You don't understand the concept of self ownership? Maybe this will help.

England outlawed slavery by a series of judicial decisions and statutes.

Yes, but you were saying that slavery was ended by trampling private property rights. That was not the case.

1 currency now -yogi wrote:

Yes, it was, from the perspective of the slave owners.

I've had just about enough of you, you ignorant mumpsimus. They had manumission in England. The slaves owners were compensated. not from Mises

or here. 

You swim in an ocean of fail.

Listen, idiot: if the owners were compensated, why did they need to outlaw the trade?
Go find a high school debate forum, son.

Well, so much for interesting conversation, good night all.

After reading about the Somersett's Case, an enslaved African in Scotland, Joseph Knight, left his master John Wedderburn. A similar case to Steuart's was brought by Wedderburn in 1776, with the same result: chattel slavery was ruled not to exist under the law of Scotland. Nonetheless, legally mandated, hereditary slavery of Scots in Scotland existed from 1606[5] until 1799, when colliers and salters were legally emancipated by an act of the Parliament of Great Britain (39 Geo.III. c56). A prior law enacted in 1775 (15 Geo.III. c. 28) was intended to end what the act referred to as "a state of slavery and bondage"[6] but it was ineffectual, necessitating the 1799 act.

here.

1 currency now -yogi wrote:

if the owners were compensated, why did they need to outlaw the trade?

You need state support for slavery to work. Without the fugitive slave law in the U.S., all the slaves would've escaped to free states and stayed there. Without the support of the Southern state governments, Runaway slaves wouldn't even have to go that far.

Slave labor is too expensive. Your laborers are unmotivated and always trying to escape. Absent government subsidies, slavery would've ended in the U.S. without laws because sharecropping was more profitable for the landowners.

By STATUTE, genius. States make Statutes, not Austrian Economists.

States make slaves, Einstein. Without state sanction, a slave is a kidnap victim.

Danny wrote:

unirealist and others - please, please please stop giving congress ideas

Typical Libertarian response.

Security by obscurity.

JIT for Macy's Day. Fine.

Can we have a poll for Conjuregram Wednesday?

C

Suffern Ace (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 11/24/2009 - 2:00 am
dfwmix wrote: The policy makers intent is not to help the US economy but to help the banks become solvent.
Which might help the economy.

Or it might not. We know that the banking sector managed to convinced the Right People that Western Civilization would Collapse if they didn't get more money -- get this -- than all wars and all space programs ever waged by the US for all time.

Was it because of the shadow banking system's stranglehold on the visible (meatspace? meat popsicle?) banking system. Will we ever know?

Banking should function, like trains, levees and sewers and aqueducts. Any government that can't control its banking sector (or its trains, levees and sewers and aqueducts) is in the process of abrogating its existential contract with the individuals.

There are plenty of shadow consumers just waiting to buy these houses once the government removes the minimum wage for bankers.

You are correct, we didn't sign any contract.

Do we get the money back now?

NervousRex wrote:

Do we get the money back now?

Yes.

Head on down to the nearest bank and request it.

Bearded Spock wrote:

Then why was it enacted?

it tried to put teeth into an earlier Fugitive Slave Law by forcing law enforcement officials in Free States to assist in the return of escaped slaves but it had unintended consequences that the Southerners could not imagine in that now the law enforcement mechanisms of the Northern states were involved and by extension their own citizens which greatly inflamed the issue even more. they tried to impose a code of conduct on a people many if not most of whom found it morally repugnant.

And what happened to the wooden arrow factory? TARP work out for them?

C

Bearded Spock wrote:

Slavery is not economically efficient without government subsidies.

So the current home owners couldn't exist without TARP?

broward wrote:

So the current home owners couldn't exist without TARP?

non sequitur. Many banks wouldn't continue to exist without TARP.

Mr. Bearded,

STARTREK.COM: Gallery (bearded Spock)

Is someone working on the transporter?

I vote to send muffy through:

It quite eludes me how ppl live in a society and manage to be complete unsocial too it. Must be some kind of Shizoprenie.
As mentionet before, free market no Gov. ppl should get a ticket to somalia to see how that works out. ( they know of course that somalie free marketers will instantly realize a profit by kidnaping them for ransom). my 2ct.

Nemo wrote:

That's why it is so important to inflate house prices.

Nemo, exactly right. With the problem stated just this way - that is, viewed in isolation - inflating house prices is a solution which easily suggests itself. Neither lenders nor policy makers are keen to own losses or to look hard at accountability, so reflation suits their brief better than alternatives do.

People who own their homes outright, or those who rent, are not considered. Young people who will wish to buy one day are not considered. It looks to me as if current policy works against majority of Americans, and ignores the future.

I think more and more people are forced into this conclusion as time passes. Govt was hijacked and so was the "American Dream". To run for office you need a war chest overflowing with $$$$$$$$$$ from special interests who want something in return for funding your campaign. If you don't have it, then the odds of your name reaching voters through TV ads, etc. is quite remote. We are really a banana republic now run by amoral

Indeed and not just with animals. We are planting STERILE grains that are lab produced, one source, one genus. It forces farmers to buy every year from big ag because the last stage is interrupted in grain reproduction, accomplished through genetic manipulation. Farmers can't use that grain as a source for the next years crop.

Anyone who understands basic biology realizes we've been in this setup for sometime. Industrialization of food and food sources which try to make the animal or plant more productive and integrated into mass production via genetic manipulation is foolish and short sighted. Attempts to increase profitability by feeding animals which are herbivores animal byproducts have already shown by a tiny fraction what can occur...spongiform (mad cow) that can be transmitted to people and has.

We are overdue, its just a matter of where is comes from and how prfoundly it affects populations.

I'm gonna get One datapoint I'm watching is ticket sales for airlines for thanksgiving holiday. Its the biggest travel season of the year. I think Black Friday isn't going to count much as Amazon and other retailers have already discounted to bring in shoppers early including brick fronts. Travel however is a good indicator as that does have a 'shelf life' so to speak.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601093&sid=af.BkfzJISUw

By Mary Schlangenstein and Mary Jane Credeur

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Americans will pack planes and struggle to stow carry-on bags as they fly over the Thanksgiving holiday. For U.S. airlines, that’s all good.

Record fees to check luggage and new charges of as much as $20 each way on peak travel days will make Thanksgiving a bright spot in a year when waning demand spurred the biggest capacity cuts since 1942 among carriers including Delta Air Lines Inc.

“Virtually all of them should make money,” said George Hamlin, president of Hamlin Transportation Consulting in Fairfax, Virginia. The number of seats sold will be “very high, fares are not at their lowest, and fuel is not exorbitant.”

For passengers, the rest of this month will magnify the 2009 squeeze of fewer flights, fuller cabins and added costs on top of their tickets. Travelers will pay extra on Nov. 29 and 30, the Sunday and Monday after the Nov. 26 holiday, as carriers apply the first seasonal surcharges for busy flying periods.

“Airlines are antagonizing customers to such an extent that I’m almost ready to tell my son to take the Greyhound bus, and that’s a 14-hour ride,” said biotech researcher David Lilienfeld, 52, whose son, Sam, will fly home to San Francisco from Reed College in Portland, Oregon.

Nanoo, flying has become such a burden - it's not a civilized way to travel any longer.

As I still enjoy driving, I tend to take the car if I can. That's what it's there for, and why I spent a bit so it's a pleasure out on the road.

And, Yoringe, I must disagree as well. It's not the process, the Democracy, which failed. A poor worker blames his tools.

Not the Process may, but one has to realize when the thing changes!! Process still there outcome is rigged!! You have to recognize it to change it....( Authority loves to hide behind democratic principles to fool the mass!1)

My bet is the Taliban Vulcan is Cheynes Daughter!

We got into this mess by inflating asset prices via propaganda, bad policies and leverage. According to Bernanke & Geithner, the only way out of the mess is to compound the mistakes.

We MUST CONtinue to make people overpay for housing.

They don't call them geniuses for nothing.

burnside wrote:

[off to market - back shortly.]

don't be a tool

Hey Nanoo thats soo good news on Murdoch!! You think anyone would pay for Fox News??? fitting that he works with MS, 2 Albatros in a deathhug to the ground ) . They cant beat Google, because google offers there thing for FREE!!!!!

Yoringe wrote:

Our Adolf Hitler was democratic elected and part of the followed mess was possible this belief in democratie (ppl where blinded by it to see the true dictator!)
... he was appointed Chancellor after Bruning failed and then Papen lost a vote of confidence and got involved in a complicated intrigue and lost support of military then came Sleicher who failed to form a coalition and finally President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler - a man he detested. a few months later was the Reichstag fire which produced the Enabling Act that allowed Herr Hitler to essentially tear up the Constitution...
would you call that a democratic process Y?

<

PHNOM PENH, Nov 23 (Reuters) - The Khmer Rouge's chief torturer ran a camp "dedicated to death" with broad autonomy, a lawyer said on Monday in closing arguments at the U.N.-backed "Killing Fields" tribunal in Cambodia.

Prosecution lawyers said 67-year-old Kaing Guek Eav, better known as Duch, was given autonomy to carry out certain punishments while running the notorious S-21 prison, where more than 14,000 "enemies" of the ultra-Maoist revolution died.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama held a final strategy session with top aides on whether to send more U.S. troops to Afghanistan and plans to announce his decision within days, the White House said.

The session in the Situation Room on Monday with officials including Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert Gates marked the ninth such meeting.

Obama is nearing a decision on whether to add as many as 40,000 troops to an eight-year-old war that began after the September 11 attacks and has begun to try the patience of Americans.

---I'm betting Obummer will send at least another 40K.
Taliban Bumper Sticker: "Afghanistan: Where Empires Come To Die"

nevadabuilder wrote:

According to this previously posted paper, Moral and Social Constraints to Strategic Default on Mortgages, we should see from 7 to 33% of the 5.3 million buyers who are 20% or more underwater "strategically" default. Let's say 20% do... that's another million foreclosures beyond those caused by "natural causes." Is that a lot?

Yes, a million is a lot. However, the number of foreclosures among that group will be higher. That's because prices will stay down for so long. My "worst case" models have almost 2 million foreclosures, short sales, or loan workouts in CA alone, from 2008 to 2015. Essentially, almost 1/3 of the homes will have loan writedowns.

Breaking

"Baghdad Bob" has joined Fox News as a military analyst.

Now Only 23% Of Homeowners Are Underwater
Henry Blodget|Nov. 24, 2009, 6:21 AM | 88 |comment

Did the media tell you that almost a third of U.S. mortgagors were underwater? Well, what they meant was that about 23% were underwater.

First American CoreLogic, which estimates the numbers many media outlets use, has changed its methodology from the last survey. It now no longer assumes that home equity lines of credit have been completely drawn down (fair), and it credits payments that mortgagors have made to pay down their principal (duh).

The net result is that the housing situation looks better than it did a few months ago. Still bad, but better.

WSJ: The proportion of U.S. homeowners who owe more on their mortgages than the properties are worth has swelled to about 23%, threatening prospects for a sustained housing recovery.

Nearly 10.7 million households had negative equity in their homes in the third quarter, according to First American CoreLogic, a real-estate information company based in Santa Ana, Calif...
read more One in Four Borrowers Is Underwater - WSJ.com
Read the who

Read the whole thing >

still short here.. That makes The Daily show the better News and Comedy!! fox problem is they lack Humor! my theorie is if you are senseless to ppls misery you cant make them laugh either...

JimPortlandOR wrote:

If not, you are just smoking

given his bursting on the scene, and rapid fire one-liners, I'd say it was more likely he's mainlining Starbucks, or something stronger.....

and its evident there is no accounting for taste. The divert, divide and confuse of claiming to be a 'fair and balanced' news source is a serious matter IMO. Its not just Fox either. Journalism is dead, few independent journalists are out there doing what needs to be done. I laugh at the money being made now on the 'meltdown' and post crisis books by people who participated in creating the crisis in the first place. Its a Mad World.

justaskin wrote:

given his bursting on the scene

he's a stooge

see, the PTB know fifth columns work

now, their pimple faced nephew can contribute

"Change you can keep" --- the Tip Prez.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Lehman Brothers International (Europe), where more than $35 billion of hedge fund assets have been frozen since the bank's collapse last September, could return about $11 billion to fund managers by March if enough firms approve a new plan.

PricewaterhouseCoopers PWC.UL, administrators for bankrupt Lehman's London-based unit, announced on Monday a proposal that would let hedge funds recover their assets held in custody by Lehman Brothers International (Europe), or LBIE. The scheme requires approval by 90 percent of Lehman's clients.

lots of used hay being spread about how and where to cut spending

apologize for using wiki, just a quicky look at where the money goes now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2009spendingbycategory2.png

Kauai_Kahuna wrote:

have also noted that while there was a rush to buy homes in the last few months most likely due to FTHB, a good percentage are falling out of escrow, I can only assume becuase the buyer could not finalize a loan, or perhaps the appraisal did not come back at the bided price.

In my area, a large number of those falling out of escrow were also because of home inspections with terrible problems, or because the sale was contingent on the buyer selling their own house.

some investor guy
pardon my ignorance but say I buy a property for 100k and out down 25k and say it takes the bank about 7 months to process the loan
now who covers that interim period me with say a bridge loan or the bank (the deed was transferred in the first month) and how does escrow work in this process???

Nanoo -

Some time ago, IHT put their pundits behind the paywall. They found their online readership didn't hold Maureen Dowd in anything like the high regard they'd imagined.

Good luck to 'em. They are hastening the death of dead tree media.

burnside wrote:

They are hastening the death of dead tree media.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I charge a fee for my wit and wisdom as well. On weekends I get good money for being a sex object.

I make the same rate for either one. Take your pick. I'm wide open for the next month or so.

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Adrian Gibbs, the virologist who said in May that swine flu may have escaped from a laboratory, published his findings today, renewing discussion about the origins of the pandemic virus.

The new H1N1 strain, which was discovered in Mexico and the U.S. in April, may be the product of three strains from three continents that swapped genes in a lab or a vaccine-making plant, Gibbs, and fellow Australian scientists wrote in Virology Journal. The authors analyzed the genetic makeup of the virus and found its origin could be more simply explained by human involvement than a coincidence of nature.

v the v

you're clearly more sought after than the aforementioned pundit!

so, good on ya . . .

HomeGnome wrote:

Good luck making a living with that!

Hey! I'm marked to market.

Developer John Beardsley, who's owned downtown Portland real estate since the 1960s, has put his company into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Beardsley's company, Fountain Village Development, owns enough historic properties to fill a skyscraper. But he sent the company into Chapter 11 to prevent the loss of one small storefront to foreclosure.

The old Jazz de Opus club at Northwest Second Avenue and Couch Street was headed for an auction Monday morning on the steps of the Multnomah County Courthouse. Beardsley halted the sale with the bankruptcy filing Friday.

"I can't do that," Beardsley said of losing the building, now rented by a strip club and a tattoo parlor. "I've got by far the most historic buildings downtown. I'm a steward, and I'm not surrendering that.

"I'm a hard loser, I guess." <---guess he's been hanging out at the club....

Link for volker: Well known downtown Portland developer files for Chapter 11 | Oregon Business News - OregonLive.com

Are you having trouble with the brothers again?

Crown
Are you having trouble with the brothers again?
Yep!
would be nice if they ever produced a single document that came from say a bank and not a wife...
duke....

As to CNBC, had it on for awhile yesterday and Cramer was doing a promo with one of the babes. Per Cramer, don't worry about Shadow Inventory - all overblown. But the issue, per Cramer's logic, isn't that it doesn't exist, but that the banks are holding it and won't sell with a wink/nod from the federal government. So, the shadow isn't a factor at all and can be ignored.

Unbelieveable. If that's the case, just bulldoze the damned things and be done with it.

But I want first crack at stripping out the copper wiring.

Cramer's an idiot. And I don't make it a habit of saying that about people.

homedad<
Do yourself a favor and never watch CNBC again.

They are just corporate cheerleaders.

http://www.my-wild-side.com/corporate-cheerleader-from-hell-erin-burnett.jpg

For an operation espousing neo-yellow journalism as the main course, of what use is the internet, anyway?

A few of Rupert's henchmen and henchwomen can deliver whoppers to tens of millions of the hoi ploy, without any chance of the booboise ever calling them on their lies, whereas there are hundreds of millions of people on the internet on a peer-to-peer basis, not his gig.

homedad43 wrote:

Cramer's an idiot. And I don't make it a habit of saying that about people.

I would love to know how much of what he says he actually believes. I keep telling myself, someone in his role can possibly be this stupid! But, who knows?

Spunkmeyer wrote:

es, it would be a real shame if Portland lost its treasured strip club and tatoo parlor if the property changed hands. This is obviously a crown jewel of the portfolio.

If a strip club advertised that its dancers had no tattoos, I would be more likely to go there.

homedad43 wrote:

Plus I like the cute little personality

I like all the lumpy sweaters. And when that tart Michelle Lee plops her cute little tush atop the desk midday and crosses her seamed stockings in front of three drooling traders, oh yeah!

So 23% have negative equity now. When homeowners that default due to negative equity, job loss, etc.. that should further pull
down the value surrounding houses. When does the cycle break ? When job losses stop ?

What do you mean I don't get the job?!?
http://declubz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/weird-tatoos.jpg

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

It was an interesting ride, the tattoo era.

lots of widdle rosebud tramp stamps have drooped into a dozen roses on many a breast of the now fifty something tattooed

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

It was an interesting ride, the tattoo era.

You think it's over now? I just assumed that they, like earrings, would just morph into the accepted culture, and people wouldn't even really think about it anymore. Personally, I've never felt the need to have one, always thinking ahead to when I'm a saggy-armed 70 year old, and that sun I had done years ago now looks like a jellyfish.

sporkfed wrote:

When does the cycle break ? When job losses stop ?

The cycle breaks when the cost of ownership is below the cost of renting, with no expected appreciation, and overall vacancy rates drop to historic norms.

If you have a large oversupply, and outward migration from a place, there is no bottom. If you have a large oversupply and inward migration, you will eventually fill it all.

If incomes keep dropping in a place with stable population, both rents and prices will decline.

sporkfed wrote:

When does the cycle break ? When job losses stop ?

Residential construction and manufacturing demand are the things that generally break the cycle. Oh, wait...

Currently in Phx Metro I can buy a 4 bed house with the payments less than a 2 bed apartment.
Using the Home Buyer credit as a down payment - no security deposit costs either.

If I have a job. If my credit is ok. If I can find a lender that will do a loan for under $100,000.00

I can't wait to see what ghastly images are on the smalls of 70 year old backs, in about 30 years.

US 3Q business investment falls 4.1%

US 3Q consumer spending up 2.9%

US 3Q corporate profits up 10.6% quarterly

US 3Q GDP revision matches analysts' view

US 3Q GDP up 2.8% vs prior estimate 3.5%

MarketWatch.com Search

Colorado. At least hiking is free!

Sandblaster wrote:

At least hiking is free!

which is what many do after being turned down, as in 'take one'.

I've been following the California higher ed funding issue. Hoodathunk that putting the ex-head of Wachovia in charge would lead to the University investing so much in mortgage backed securities? If I were a student there I'd use the Western states tuition exchange to get the hell out.

Sandblaster wrote:

Colorado. At least hiking is free!

We even have a fee for that. The hated adventure pass.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has offered to add Israeli systems and munitions to a new U.S.-built fighter jet and deliver it to Israel by 2015, provided a deal is sealed in coming months.

Lockheed Martin Corp, maker of the radar-evading F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, would tie in Israeli-built command, control, communications, computer and intelligence systems for a unique version of the jet for sale to Israel, Jon Schreiber, a senior Pentagon program official, told Reuters Monday.

The United States also would integrate bombs that use an Israeli precision guidance kit called Spice along with Python 5 air-to-air missiles made by Israel's Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd., Schreiber said in an interview.
U.S. pitches unique F-35 fighter jet to Israel
| Reuters

Hiking fees are being considered strongly by the county. We just park on the road and walk into the few places that have them now.

volker the viking wrote:

he's a stooge

Word.

Rob Dawg wrote:

No, the cycle needs more employment AND a halt to wage deterioration. Not gonna happen as long as global wage arbitration doesn't account for the externalities.

OK that may just be as dismal as the Conjuregram turns out to be...'cause the externalities aren't going to be priced barring a major systemic shock.