O/T: sorry for the early threadjack, just unfortunate timing
CR, if you want to post a JimTheRealtor video this weekend, I suggest bubbleinfo.com » Blog Archive » More Flipping!
Does a before & after of a flip he's representing, the interesting bit to me was the 'comps' he listed
there's only 3, but they all doubled their price from this summer to this fall with sales to buyers using FHA/VA

No surprise there! No worry Obama and your grand kids will take care of you!

"that guarantees pensions for 44 million Americans"

At least 44 million votes? No brainier! Give them their

The Annual Management Report classified 27 large pension plans with total underfunding of $1.64 billion as probable losses on the PBGC balance sheet.

Again, lack of enforcement. Someone had the responsibility to require the funding to be made, as well as to discount the ridiculous projections of future returns. Even the news media knew what was happening.

I think Exxon is underfunded by about 20 billion or so.
Despite profits far greater than that over the last 10 years.
Yet the government allows it.
Hmmm.
Kill the lobbyists?

In all fairness, government spending has become completely dis-engaged from tax revenue. The Chinese, etc, are footing the bill. Until they get sick of it and stop.

Nuke wrote:

In all fairness, government spending has become completely dis-engaged from tax revenue.

Was it the tax cuts for the rich and increased interest on the resulting deficit or fighting two wars without raising a dollar to pay for them?

some of what I'm talking about re:Texas,
http://www.truthinaccounting.org/uploads/files/50%20State/Pension%20and%20OPEB%20Issues.pdf
GASB allows the shortfall to be amortized over 40 years now
even with the friendly amortization, and pie-in-the-sky expected investment returns (no uniform standard or auditing) there was an article that rounded up the Texas pension shortfalls in 2005
http://www.prb.state.tx.us/file%20cabinet/More%20scrutiny%20sought%20over%20public%20pensions.pdf
in the hole $12bn
or to state it better, an excerpt from that first link

Because the GASB allows for a 40 year amortization of pre-GASB 27 underfunding and a 30 year
amortization of benefit enhancements, the amount included as the Annual Pension Costs on the
financial statements is usually considerably less than the amount the actuaries calculate is needed
to adequately fund the pension systems. We are fortunate that the GASB does require the actuarial
unfunded pension liability to be disclosed in the Required Supplementary Information. This may
allow sophisticated users of the financial reports to approximate the true pension liability owed by
some state.

//snark alert

This is what can happen in an unregulated economy - if you thought liar loans were problematic:

BBC NEWS | Europe | 'Body sold' to Russia kebab shop

The need for so called solutions keep mounting.

"The need for so called solutions keep mounting."

Always and ever.

However, as the Italians say: No solution? No problem.

OT question

My 80 year mother in Cali, spent 4 days at kaiser's hospital for a emergency hip replacement, and she acquired a blood disease from the hospital requiring 6 weeks convalence in a skilled nursing facility Now, Kaiser Permanente wants to charge her over $90,000 for her care...Is there anything she can do about this?
Thanks in advance

pavel.chichikov wrote:

However, as the Italians say: No solution? No problem.

Thanks for the chuckle o keeper of faith

also from http://www.truthinaccounting.org/uploads/files/50%20State/Pension%20and%20OPEB%20Issues.pdf

Because state and local governments have promised these retirement benefits without setting aside
money to fund future payments, OPEB liabilities are enormous. Studies have estimated that state
and local governments OPEB liabilities are between $600 billion and $1.6 trillion.iii The new
accounting standard did not create this under-funding, but fortunately the disclosures required
under GASB 45 will reveal them for the first time and make these funding gaps more apparent.

...

Already there is evidence that governments are starting to consider managing their newly
calculated OPEB liability. In his CAFR transmittal letter dated March 28, 2008 California’s State
Controller John Chiang noted that in 2007 he commissioned the state’s first actuarial report on
OPEB. The report disclosed that the state faces a $47.9 billion unfunded liability. Controller Chiang
went on to say, “In January 2008, the California Public Employee Post-employment Benefits
Commission, appointed by the Legislature and Governor, unanimously recommended that the state
and local governments ‘prefund’ retiree health benefits by setting aside and investing funds as
employees earn OPEB benefits.”vi

What's another $50bn a year in state and local taxes just to pay existing unfunded pensions? It's only 0.35% of GDP, and there will be plenty to spare with the estimated post-crash GDP growth of 5% after taking things like pensions into account

Just received the call from her this morning...thats what I suggested...The only reason that I forced her into the skilled nursing faciflly was that she would not die..I suspect that Kaiser pushed her into the nursing facility was due to their E&O exposure...while at the same time extracting the costs from my mother....

Thanks, sportfan...

I hadn't thought about it in these terms, but is it possible that among other factors the additional cost of insurance fees that companies pay to the PBGC based on the size of their pension fund influenced companies to move away from DB plans?

And, of course, just the fact that the PBGC had their back must have caused companies to be bit more cavalier about meeting funding levels.

At a previous time in Cali, retiress could transfer assets and qualify for Medical...Is this still an acceptable procedure or should an old retired 80 yr. old single women just file BK?
Thanks in advance...

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

“In January 2008, the California Public Employee Post-employment Benefits Commission, appointed by the Legislature and Governor, unanimously recommended that the state and local governments ‘prefund’ retiree health benefits by setting aside and investing funds as employees earn OPEB benefits.”

How comforting it is to know that the recommendation was unanimous.

Wonder how much money they've set aside in the past 22 months?

km4 wrote:

Think again

Reminded about the link yesterday re sadness and thinking. Dam you must be sad

Surprised that no one has noted that aside from the "intentional" underfunding of DB plans, the recent crash in yields has destroyed amortization expectations.

lost:

Why just not pay? Honestly, what can they do? Does she has a lot of assets they can seize?

picosec wrote:

Surprised that no one has noted that aside from the "intentional" underfunding of DB plans, the recent crash in yields has destroyed amortization expectations.

Why did you put "intentional" in quotes like that? How else does a politician cut taxes while increasing spending? Reporting virtual wealth to match future obligations, that is fraud, is cheaper and longer lasting than borrowing more real money.

Kn4,
No, not a lot of assets, but a child of the depression...She has barely enough to cover the costs, but after 65 years, she is now poverty stricken with without her 9 brothers and siters and her parents...just me who could be in the same situation as her, if I should have the same medical problem with the same insurer, Kaiser Permanente...
Thanks for your response, in spite of the fact that my Q was OT

The only debt that we don't need to worry about is the U.S. Gov't debt. Why? It's THE super senior debt in our eCONomy. Moreover, it's the one debt that will never, ever be repaid. The gov't debt will just be expanded at the expense of other debts.

Bad debt chases out worse . . .

@ tg Sat, 11/14/2009 - 10:48 am
Thx and same to you

"Which reminds me of the expression I've heard attributed to the Russians: That was long ago and not true anyway."

Thanks, Flaminia. I don't remember having heard that one, but it's a good one.

In Ukraine:

The devil made me do it, said the monk.

First I heard tell of it, said the devil.

"But all the old know better than
The ordinary clever man:
We are not meant to live without:
Trouble, error, sin and doubt"

excellent, Pavel.

How is an 80 y/o not on Medicare?

Shred all the Kaiser documents and tell them to f themselves.

lost:

I would 1) gt a lawyer 2) tell Kaiser to F themselves, 3) not pay. What are they gonna do?

Medicare won't cover it? Call the hospital and lay it out. She has no money to pay the bill. I have seen bills written off completely. Part of why medical cost so much is they have to cover no pays.

Get a lawyer. Get a hard copy of her hospital records...ALL OF THEM. Immediately file an appeal while you get lawyer and that business in order, talk to a hospital ombudsman after you have done all this; also get a hard copy of all of her extended care records.

If she had a blood transfusion that caused the problem, then there could be some outs for the hospital. If it was due to the use of Heparin or other injections, then you may have a suit (big one) to a pharmaceutical. How the infection was acquired is important to know. If it was because of a non-healing wound, you would have to determine that negligent care was the result.

Get a lawyer and all records-hard copy first and yeah, you'll have to pay for them.

ummm, I hate to mention this to a dr, but was this
ummmmmm, errrr, ahhhhh. . . . . malpractive?

Nuke,
thanks for your opinon, I agree, however can Kaiser take away her assets (home)? Thats the real issue...I do not want her to die in poverty, even if she moves in with me...The problem with depression era children, is the fear of poverty and lack of independence...my real concern is suicide...

Thanks for your response...

Our raw young nation, so it was.

And what was the charge; and who was it, Wilde? Barbarity to decadence, without the intervening civilization?

Nabokov loved us in the '50's.

Lemme guess, an MRSA infection?

Lawyerliz:

Go to Sears. Their weedwackers are Assembled in USA.

lost:

Varies from state to state. She can always sell the house and put the money in a trust. Muddies the water for years.

lost, California is really quite liberal when it comes to protecting a residence against a third party creditor. Even recorded judgments against the owner rarely result in a forced sale.

As I said before, talk to a lawyer.

Lost-confused,

In my opinion, you should contact Kaiser and tell them that the hospital is responsible for her infection and that if they don't retract the bills you will contact newspapers, television stations and a lawyer as a response. Believe me, the media would love to have this story and the company will surely not want that.

PS lost: You will need to get a release of information to you and the lawyer signed before you can get her records. Her records will be a key. Your beef though remember is with Kaiser and why the appeal on their decision not to pay should be immediately protested. Her physician may well be able to help with that. I've seen physicians successfully negotiate that. The physician may not be at fault (or maybe) thats why a good atty with medical expertise is necessary. Its also why the records are key to make a determination if there is other fault here which can be found.

If you contact the ombudsman at both facilities and pay a tiny amount on the bill every month while working through the process to get Kaiser to pay, then they can't do a whole lot as you are advocating and trying in good faith to see the bill is paid.

pavel.chichikov wrote:

The devil made me do it, said the monk.
First I heard tell of it, said the devil.

+1

lost- you have a great case but make sure the lawyer has a knowledgeable nurse on the payroll...nurse facilitator even better

I missed the last thread...but debt pushers are way worse than drugpushers....

ot-Anybody have ideas on what questions to ask the general public about what they think of the fed, bailout and the damage being done to the dollar...I'm going to end the fed rally with videographer and will post video on youtube and website....

I usta just ignore tv ads to the best of my ability.

Now, I think--why that's a lie, and that other thing is just a lie.

And, my goodness that's a lie too.

Someone had the responsibility to require the funding to be made, as well as to discount the ridiculous projections of future returns.

It's not the ridiculous projections of future returns that create the biggest problem. It's the lowball estimates of future liabilities that come from using a discount rate (interest rate) too high, and also the failure to amortize shortfalls on a defined schedule. The Pension Protection Act of 2006 addressed and solved both issues. But since then, underfunded DB plans have been cut a lot of slack during the recession, and most of the underfunding has continued and evened worsened.

lawyerliz, I like the 4-stroke Ryobi. You can avoid the oil/gas mixing and extra pollution. Avoiding China mfg is becoming impossible. Even high end brands have shifted mfg.

lawyerliz wrote:

Hi guys.
Can't find a weed whacker; HomeDepot has only pos s made in
China. Suggestions?

Depends. How big are the lawyers and stacks of paperwork you are planning on trimming?

I've got power demands around the dawghaus so I have a 4 stroke Troybilt TB490BC that is acceptable. Cost ya $220 for whatever the latest model may be.

Just so everyone is on the same page. When FedGov talks about guaranteeing pensions it means taking money from prudent savers and giving it to people already receiving more than they've accrued. It also means higher taxes on anyone seeking to become a prudent saver. Tack up another post-it on the tally side of moral hazard/unintended consequences.

sdtfs wrote:

Hi guys.
Can't find a weed whacker; HomeDepot has only pos s made in
China. Suggestions?
Local lawnmower shop, Stihl, two stroke with Easy start. Us old people can't pull that cord so good any more.

Trimmers for Homeowners | Husqvarna Garden Trimmers
They used to be made in Sweden-

I think I saw some with that odd to me name,and they
were made in Taaa-daaa, China.

You know what would be sweet revenge- that all these bailouts actually do keep the economy out of double in 2010 and 2011 only to have it go back into the tank in 2012 when Obama is running for re-election. Perhaps then he will do the LBJ thing and decide not to run for a second term.

When a politician does something against their self interest it usually is because the interests of their masters take precedence. In terms of individual political calculus- the President should have deferred the bailout until later in his term so that the economy would be recovering during his re-election bid. The alternative hypothesis that he was doing what was good for the country regardless of his own political fortune isn't substantiated by the facts. Had be believed that we would nationalized the banks and dispensed with the too big to fail doctrine by breaking them up.

"It also means higher taxes on anyone seeking to become a prudent saver. "

Another Rewards for failure! Chase the big income and pay the tax man (politician) and the Bankster. Spendable dollar is what most are missing. Start thinking about public education and the one message the teach.

lawyerliz wrote:

Ice cream. I need ice cream.

I'm feeling the withdrawal since my kid got laid off from the Cold Stone Creamery. They got a cup of their choice after every shift.

Liz, it is going to be near impossible to not get a Chicomm mfg'd small engine anything. Just make sure you get a quality four stroke engine and beware of too many plastic parts. the Engine needs a metal oil pan and a metal carbeurator and prefereably but rare a metal bell housing.

Pensions: Yet another use for the printing press! What an amazing device. Probably the best tech usg has invested in.

Invest in GovCheese priority wristbands. Nothing else gets the full faith and credit anymore.

You have to wonder about all the pension funds extending and pretending about the liquidation value of their assets. I cannot imagine many of them were positioned for 3 year recession especially in the face of a retirement bubble. Too bad NRA is taken as National Retirement Authority has a nice ring to it.

prudent saver==oxymoron

lawyerliz wrote:

Butter pecan or 5 vanilla. . .

"Polar Bear in a Snowstorm"... unflavored ice cream, crushed vanilla bean (eyes and nose), marshmallow creme and a light sprinkle of coconut.

lawyerliz wrote:

But the Chinese had block printing didn't they.

yes - but that took effort unlike a printing press

Weill the mongol paper money blew up. Don't know
the details.

lawyerliz wrote:

Just not moveable type?

Look at the ideograms and try to imagine movable type.

Heheheh, how true.

ot- insurance co's asking your age for qualification

is this illegal?

if so, what would stop one from lying about their age to get into a lower cost policy?

Comrade Rally Monkey wrote:

is this illegal?

No.

lawyerliz wrote:

Unflavored?

Straight up sweet cream. We ancient throwbacks remember taking turns at the crank on the dock at Otis Reservoir hoping the milk and sugar would congeal.

o/t

I found this interesting and I wonder how it will look for the 2009 tax year

The Tax Foundation - State Debt Per Capita and as a Percentage of State GDP, Fiscal Year 2007

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

I'm most worried about Texas

and well you should be what with it being one of the largest economies in the world, a member of OPEC (you can look it up under Texas Railroad Commissioner), being ready to defend a very long common border with Mexico, a history of conspiracies for nationhood, and a bellicose governor with the sentiments of W and the ability to speak effectively and is doing so to rally the citizens against the evil empire

rich wrote:

PBGC has no obligation for the biggest mess, which is state and local govt. DB pensions.

I expect a lot of pressure on exactly this point -- but given the niggardly way the PBGC doles out benefits, I would expect the pressure to manifest as a new agency with an initial generous tendency towards current beneficiaries.

Texas is a member of Opec?

Barley wrote:

o/t
I found this interesting and I wonder how it will look for the 2009 tax year
The Tax Foundation - State Debt Per Capita and as a Percentage of State GDP, Fiscal Year 2007

Despite the left leanings of MA, our Governor started reducing staff and trying to cut costs more than a year ago, so I doubt we've gotten too much worse this year, but who knows-

Barley, volkertheviking
I'm not following Texas closely, just one of those little things I have filed away under long term memory. Rumsfeld's unknown-unknowns, are what I'm talking about, the things that could happen but aren't adequately prepared for.

burnside,
I will read the Hendry piece, but have it lined up with a few other pdfs for now

RockyR wrote:

Being born in the screw zone - 1975 to 2000, it sounds like the name of the game for me and my family is to figure out exactly how much we need to make to support ourselves and minimize our surplus (excess earnings). That way, we waste the least amount our resources supporting a broken and corrupt system.
Sound right to you?

Yes, Mr. Galt. Exactly right. I would only add that you would be well served by reviewing contemporary history to discover that you are singularly the only generation that has ever felt that way.

RockyR wrote:

Being born in the screw zone - 1975 to 2000, it sounds like the name of the game for me and my family is to figure out exactly how much we need to make to support ourselves and minimize our surplus (excess earnings). That way, we waste the least amount our resources supporting a broken and corrupt system.
Sound right to you?

The other option is to leave the country like I did . WiW's prediction: a historic amount of liquidity is flowing to emerging markets, fueling historically divergent growth between developing and developed economies. Employment growth will follow, that's the last piece of the puzzle. Somebody competent will have to execute on all of the work we have over here, and it's going to be Western workers.

CNBC Cameraman Can’t Believe He’s Filming Another Blog Off A Computer Monitor | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

just trying to get a read on the commentariat here, Rob. however, it sounds reasonable to me. not sure why it would draw fire from you.

RockyR wrote:

just trying to get a read on the commentariat here

Just don't forget why you are trying to maximize your effort--- for a happy healthy family. Stressing about money doesn't promote that.

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists wrote:

a historic amount of liquidity is flowing to emerging markets, fueling historically divergent growth between developing and developed economies. Employment growth will follow, that's the last piece of the puzzle.

I'm skeptical of the outcome. Domestic policies are significantly skewed towards investment at the expense of consumption. It already results in production that always loses money ex-subsidies/rebates. Further investment would just provide an increasingly negative return. So all that hot money can do is go into asset appreciation, which is effectively arbitraging pegged currencies from their undefended rear (which was not open to attack until returns in the floating currencies dropped to zilch). If you drop the assumption of X people * Y standard of living = HUGE market opportunity, by considering less-emotional examples like Africa, Yemen, Bangladesh, .... the overall calculation is not so simple. A high savings rate does not indicate a high rate of return, especially when it is a structured government policy. How long did Japan last with just infinite liquidity? Seems to me 1987-1989.

bankers, I like the thought of leaving. that proposition comes with significant risk in the short and long run if we were to leave to a developing nation. short run risk to personal safety in exchange for an uncertain long run return stemming from the fact that the very country of your choosing is one that emerges ahead from the current macro shifts. not sold on the thought that that risk/return equation will pay out better than moderating my participation in the corruption and theft at home.

RockyR wrote:

just trying to get a read on the commentariat here, Rob. however, it sounds reasonable to me. not sure why it would draw fire from you.

It was the "born in the screw zone - 1975 to 2000" comment. Do I need to list the age cohorts of the rest of the 20th Century who might disagree? Well the ones that didn't die so there was a "screw zone 1975-2000" at least. With the possible exception of the forst half of the baby boom I'd be surprised if any decadal transect didn't think they were at a competitive disadvantage.

the very country of your choosing is one that emerges ahead from the current macro shifts

No, I'm certain the grass is greener over there.

lawyerliz wrote:

The rest are gender neutral.

You clearly have the bearded lady and the drunk chick in the wrong group-

I don't think a guy has ever used the icon.

No girl with glasses (like me) would ever identify with
this little guy:

A drunk chick would have smeared mascara.

Just saying.

lawyerliz wrote:

No girl with glasses (like me) would ever identify with
this little guy:

1. http://girlgetstrong.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/little-girl-with-glasses-reduced.jpg
2. there's a lot more emoticons in that list. For example what gender is ?

Is better looking than me. Perhaps I am not as vain as some girls.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

No girl with glasses (like me) would ever identify with
this little guy:

Looks like to demure but sexy librarian to me, 'cept for the grin.....

Sdtfs,

for sure... but, we can live well on less money. we don't need a bigger house and we don't need to drive german cars. we can buy our clothes on the cheap. we can spend on food and gas and time away from work to spend with each other. all of these minimize our potential participation in the system... but, i'm not talking about living at the John Galt poverty line. although, the romanticism of withdrawing that much resource is emotionally appealing. unfortunately for the world, I am no kind of super star talent.

this system we have today is broken. social contracts are being broken. it needs destruction, not continuation. hanging out here has convinced me of that.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

For example what gender is Cash

Cash!!!!! We know who's smilin' about that. BTW, what's 6" long and 2" wide, and drives women crazy?
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
paper Money-

I would suggest Miss Piggy, but we already have the homegrown
which has lipstick and is therefore, I suppose putatively
female.

Girly and adolescent??????
sdtfs!

There are lots of different systems.

Some of them are failing and some of them are not.

Rob Dawg wrote:

any decadal transect didn't think they were at a competitive disadvantage.

Higher Ed. puts newbies at a competitive disadvantage towards those people who could get a degree sans pawning off 30+ years of their productive life. (See EHP's comment re: state universities as an example) Fortunately for the newbies, business types may start avoiding higher ed. degree types for determined, lower wage types and it could all be awash.
.
My biased opinion is anyone not in the first 1/4->1/3 of the baby boom is looked to be on the "more screwed" side. That includes the remaining GD folks, Gen X, Y, Z, but when you talk who is more screwed within the "more screwed" side, it may be like arguing who is the tallest midget...
.
ahem Little Person.

Rob,
please read further up on the thread. i was reiterating the assertion of a previous post. the timeframe is irrelevant, the principal is the same.

OT: Afghanistan

Let me offer my public climb-down on my prediction that more troops were 'baked into the cake' (i.e., if you ask Generals for their opinion as to what is to be done, their answer is always "more troops"; and the very public "leaks" supporting their case). I still think the plan was exactly that.

But something appears to have happened -- all the General's plans were most publicly rejected, and a request for 'exit-strategies' requested. A former general, and Ambassador to Afghanistan, had his memo leaked (meaning, we're being prepared for a change of direction), saying any more troops would be a waste if all they are doing is trying to buck up a failed corrupt gov't.

It's a choice I am glad I do not have to make, and there will be a stiff price to pay in any case. The temptation to kick-the-can with more troops must be phenomenal. An exit would be ugly, and the results uglier. The Republicans will forever damn Obama as the President who "lost Afghanistan". But unless this is a last-minute hard nut-squeeze on Karzai, it sure looks like a change is in the making.

And as an ex-soldier, my heart aches for those on the knife-edge as the grand strategy is decided and executed -- but we chose the hard role of pawn on the battlefield. And we will support whatever wins the larger game -- and prepare for the next campaign. Don't think it isn't coming -- it's one of America's few "comparative advantages". May we use it wisely.

any decadal transect didn't think they were at a competitive disadvantage.

Of course the corollary is true, too. Old farts always think youth are spoiled whiners,...I know I do!

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

Dinosaurs were warm blooded

You mean, "birds"?

Many a ship of Empire has crashed upon the rocks of the "Stan. Scorched earth or scorched reputation are the only choices left. Watch UE skyrocket when all those Guardsmen come home to discover their jobs gone.

lawyerliz
if they were warm blooded, and needed to produce the kind of energy the study suggests, they would need a cooling mechanism
like sweat + fur, wagging their tongues like a dog wouldn't be enough (my own guess)
have to redraw all those kids books now

The lean cohort just before the boomers had
it easy. The hub is only 3 and a bit years older
than I, but in many ways he had it easier. By the time the 46-ers were up to the
plate for anything there were zillions of other boomers
to fight for whatever was on offer.

Rob Dawg wrote:

Watch UE skyrocket when all those Guardsmen come home to discover their jobs gone.

Estimates are that 1/3 of all homeless in San Diego are ex-veterans.

History ain't what it used to be...

C

Mr.Kowalski wrote:

Here's a link to a terrific blog that describes the problems with Muni bonds.

"as property value plummets and foreclosures bring fewer and fewer property tax payers" - I think this misses the point that the tax revenues have little do with the value of homes- as long as everything is moving up and down together> If the assessed value goes down the tax rate goes up. What municipalities benefited from was the building of new homes and the remodeling and expansion of existing homes. They actually increased the tax base..

Big Bird, with extremely long razer sharp teeth
and vicious claws.

. . .everything goes up and down together. . .

You think house prices are sticky???

Compared to salaries they are as slick as ice.

if we withdraw from the stan, load up on canned goods. it will be clear that we are running from defeat. we haven't done that since the 70s. uncertainty about the US will increase in this scenario.

DCRogers wrote:

Big Bird, with extremely long razer sharp teeth and vicious claws.

+2

FWIW, I believe there a large bird in New Guinea (or Indonesia) that fit's this bill. As I recall reading, a single kick can disembowel a man.

lawyerliz wrote:

We are getting the elder tub monday.. My mom just washed out the
old tub, cause the cat had walked around in it and made paw prints.
But they are taking it out!!!
But you don't want them to see it dirty when they pull it out.
I don't care. I do.

May sure your shorts are clean too, in case you have to go to the hospital-

lawyerliz wrote:

But you don't want them to see it dirty when they pull it out.

+1 Win

RockyR wrote:

it will be clear that we are running from defeat. we haven't done that since the 70s. uncertainty about the US will increase in this scenario.

I think history will see the key failed battle as Tora Bora, where we could have gotten our enemy leader and called it a day. (Letting Mullah Omar gallop away on a horse later was just icing on the cake.)

Now, it's not even clear what a "victory" would look like. After 8 years of drift, if we do decide to stay, we'd better start learning -- fast.

The comment from an elder:
"Because it just isn't 'right'."

Means, the discussion is over, you are wrong and shame on you for even questioning the way things are.

Back taxes have to be paid.

If the lender doesn't pay them sooner, they will have to
pay them later. Nobody gets a pass on property taxes.

Property taxes have priority over mortgages, and can
eliminate mtges if not paid. Condo maintence must be
paid to0-but only up to a certain limit. Of course, sooner or
later the mtgee will take title and would be subject to new
special assessments which may relate back to problems
and debts before the lender took title.

But some of my opponent lenders are acting like they
don't want the property at all.

Rob Dawg wrote:

"Because it just isn't 'right'."

They were stating that they agree taking more out of a social support system than they contributed over their lifetime as a worker is wrong, and they want to save some of the money for the people behind them? Really?

RockyR wrote:

uncertainty about the US will increase in this scenario.

One final thought -- have you considered that a lot of the world likes all of our best combat troops (and all of our money) tied up in Afghanistan? Having them freed up indeed increases uncertainty -- about what we are now able to do next. I'd bet Iran and China are hoping for a big buildup and a ten-year plan.

RockyR wrote:

"victory" at this point would probably entail massive civilian casualties, a lot of cluster bombs, and the formation of the 51st state wedged between iran and pakistan.

Doesn't sound like you're a big believer in the meager 40K troop buildup and "let's-make-friends-with-the-locals" counterinsurgency strategy then.

lawyerliz wrote:

their SS $$$ went somewhere
useful.

Doesn't the U.S. Treasury count?

Rob Dawg wrote:

Watch UE skyrocket when all those Guardsmen come home to discover their jobs gone.

Nah. If they do come home, the government bean counters will find a way not to count them as unemployed. Count on it.

RE: the war on terrism

At the risk of sounding simplistic we went wrong when we decided to abandon the Geneva Convention. The terms are clear. When we bent them for the sake of expediency and public perception our effort was doomed. By not summarily executing belligerents hiding among the population we did no one any favors.

It is the same twisted belief that by bending a few rules we can achieve more desirable outcomes that has been driving our responses to the ongoing financial crisis.

crazyv wrote:

Every single American who dies in Afghanistan is directly attributable to Rumsfeld, Cheney and CO. The succeeded in snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in 2002.

BTW, don't leave out George W. Bush, the worst President ever with the exception of Buchanan

remember Gen. Westmoreland....

predicted we'd win in 6 more months - just before the Tet offensive. Generals don't get to be Generals by being downbeat (or even realistic).

substitute mountains for jungles, and you have Vietnam and Afghanistan almost. Then add in Afghan hatred of any foreign invaders for centuries. Then add to that religious fanatics (Taliban), plus Pashtun versus Tajik versus seven other ethnicities. The burial ground of empires....

"Geneva Convention."

Show us where the current enemy has signed on to this book of rules?

RockyR wrote:

i'd agree with your hypothesis about the row liking our toil in a-stan if it weren't for the fact that we have such a small percentage of our POTENTIAL tied up,

You can do "total war" only once -- it sucks the life out of the productive economy. Some are of the view that even our current level of expenditure is enough to put our economy at a permanent disadvantage to the rest of the world -- full mobilization would require a massive reduction in living standards that would render our current price-tag small by comparison.

remember, we haven't had a draft in a long time... mind you, I'd be an active dodger, now. why die for the Vampire Squid from Hell?

Agreed. If people start to believe they're supporting a useless, corrupt, gov't (Karzai comes to mind), then why bother to fight and die?

In any case, even if we have a disagreement here, I feel confident that you will be at my side if there is ever a manning of the ramparts against the !

If we need a war to keep the neo's happy, why not just declare war on the vampire squids sucking our vital fluids? Do a condemnation proceeding on Roosevelt Island (delicious ) next to Manhattan to use for Gitmo North. Google "malefactors of great wealth" (lol)

JimPortlandOR wrote:

If we need a war to keep the neo's happy, why not just declare war on the vampire squids sucking our vital fluids?

I can only imagine the reaction at Central when the seals storm the building.

I wonder what the dry-cleaning bill would be on 500 urine-stained $3000 suits?

"In any case, even if we have a disagreement here, I feel confident that you will be at my side if there is ever a manning of the ramparts against the Vampire Squid from Hell ! "

i think that is a safe bet

thanks for the good convo. family is now dressed. headed out for a bit.

"We did. That's what matters."

+1

noob, Powell has gone fishing. He knows his time is over.

Lots of misinformation here about PBGC.

PBGC isn't really about unions. Their multi-employer (union) program is far smaller than their single-employer program, it pays less in benefits per retiree, and PBGC doesn't actually take over and run multi-employer plans, like it does single-employer plans.

PBGC won't ever just abandon anyone, and it won't need to. It has assets and the ability to charge and raise assessments on plans. But it may have to whittle back benefits. The big bridge to cross will be if PBGC ever has to ask Congress for general U.S. revenues. Yes, there are debates about how Congress will respond.

Why should Congress spend taxpayer money to make a PBGC retiree whole (as opposed to 3/4 whole) when a policeman or firefighter in a plan like Vallejo's might get zilch? What about retirees who are broke and never had a chance for a pension? There's an equality element to it.

sportsfan wrote:

noob, Powell has gone fishing. He knows his time is over.

Even Richard Nixon returned to an active public role after a period in the penalty box. I do hope someone clever recognizes Powell's potential and draws him back into the public eye in a few years. For now, let's give the guy a change to unwind and get his head back into the game.

Lobbyist Ben Dover wrote:

Maybe that is why we can't get the job done. Political honor with other peoples lives means little to those who lose theirs.

+1 (withdrawn -- see below)

Or even figure out what "the job" is.

edit: and while I am a supporter of volunteer forces, one of the downsides is that the political classes can send them into harm's way without having any of their own "skin in the game" -- literally.

further edit: I believe I have misread the intent of his entry. I took "Political honor with other peoples lives means little to those who lose theirs" to mean that leaders with no "skin in the game" (other people's lives) tend to make bad choices. Upon re-reading, I was totally wrong, and apologize for taking the wrong side on this important issue.

noob goldberg wrote:

I do hope someone clever recognizes Powell's potential and draws him back into the public eye in a few years.

Recent report that Powell and Obama have been talking (and Powell's Doctrine dusted off). Powell reportedly has been saying privately not to rush the Afghan decision. I can see Powell standing at Obama's side when/if Obama decides to defenistrate rather than reinforce.

"A cloak that served us so well from 1763 to 1963."

No it all changed to a no win after WWII with the UN. No declaration of war since then and really no wars won either. Any way my view as to why we are always in a cluster F situation. Take the gloves off, fight to win or don't even start.

broward wrote:

Cinco-X wrote:
subject to summary execution.
True, but not to torture.

And the offing at the time and place of being captured - not rounded up and taken into a forest for later execution.

MaryAnn wrote:

Forget doom just a moment, My HillBilly's just beat Tennessee, HOTTYTODDY, ((((((((passing you a drink of moonshine.)))))))).

Ahem.....there aren't any hills in Mississippi......
......unlike, say TN or AL-

comrade mike wrote:

I would move to Texas if it succeeded from the union.

So, you want to relive the Anglo/Latino war that would ensue?

JimPortlandOR wrote:

True, but not to torture.

And the offing at the time and place of being captured - not rounded up and taken into a forest for later execution.

Can someone point to a valid reference to those regulations, and no, the DailyKOS is not a valid resource-

Re: Powell

He signed me up for the Iraq war with his UN speech, which he later admitted he was completely set-up for. I let his credibility sway my judgement at a key moment -- now I realize it was a massive geopolitical mistake, at horrible cost.

While he can never live down this key failure at a key moment in history, his advice would be valuable to any President. I deeply regret Cheney was able to fool him and switch his advice on Iraq from opposed to supporting: it would have change the course of history.

Disempowered Paper Pusher wrote:

Imagine a property has both back taxes and a lien from a HOA. If you get the deed to the property by paying the back taxes, are you still on the hook for the HOA lien?

almost always. With some minor shuffling of positions it runs:
1 Taxes (incl penalties)
2 Special Assessments (incl penalties)
3 HOA fees (usually incl penalties)
4 Mechanic's Liens (sometimes in front of HOAs depending)
5 Primary lender(s)
6 ... the desperate Hyena's who might or might not be HELOCs, 2nds, etc.

There's all kinds of potential one place shuffling so don't bore me with minor shifts.

Cinco-X asked JimPortlandOR about the Geneva conventions when Jim wrote:

And the offing at the time and place of being captured - not rounded up and taken into a forest for later execution.

It does not matter what the Geneva Conventions say on this matter -- the US Army is not the SS.

Cinco-X wrote:

Can someone point to a valid reference to those regulations,

Military Code of Justice, you have to memorize it when you enlist.

Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JimPortlandOR wrote:

the DailyKOS is not a valid resource-

What? It doesn't have enough wingnutty truth for you?

It's a hate site. It's full of crap like that phony tale about McCain crashing a bunch a planes. Anyone with any sense knows that the Navy would ground any pilot that did that, even in wartime, and even the son of an Admiral. Hell, they can ground you for landing that aren't up to snuff, much less a crash.
//Plonk//

DCRogers wrote:

I deeply regret Cheney was able to fool him and switch his advice on Iraq from opposed to supporting: it would have change the course of history.

Yes, and it is right for him to head to the penalty box for that error; it was grievous and had great negative impact on many lives.

But I'm an optimist, and I truly hope he's given a chance to vindicate himself.

DCRogers,

I don't find myself in disagreement with you frequently, but we completely disagree on the validity of Ben Dover's comment in reply to the comments of Rob Dawg and others regarding the Geneva Conventions.

He asserts that our adherence to the Geneva Conventions is a possible explanation for our failure to prevail in Afghanistan. I think that is complete nonsense.

He also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat. While they can no longer speak for themselves, I seriously doubt that to be true. I can't even imagine a situation in which a dying solder's last wish would have been having killed more civilians or some such travesty.

Yet you seem to think his points had merit.

sportsfan wrote:

He asserts that our adherence to the Geneva Conventions is a possible explanation for our failure to prevail in Afghanistan. I think that is complete nonsense.

He also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat. While they can no longer speak for themselves, I seriously doubt that to be true. I can't even imagine a situation in which a dying solder's last wish would have been having killed more civilians or some such travesty.

You are correct -- I misread the intent of his entry. I took "Political honor with other peoples lives means little to those who lose theirs" to mean that leaders with no "skin in the game" (other people's lives) tend to make bad choices. Upon re-reading, I was totally wrong, and apologize for taking the wrong side on this important issue.

I have edited my previous comment to reflect this. Thanks for helping me set this right.

sportsfan wrote:

{Rob Dawg} also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat.

That doesn't even deserve calling you an asshole so I won't.

{Rob Dawg} also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat.

You missed the reference to "he"

{Ben Dover} also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat.

Straightened that out for you.

RockyR: Bad things can happen to anyone, ranging from death of a spouse to long-term unemployment to major illness.... I strongly advise you to have significant resources saved to deal with these possibilities.

sportsfan (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sat, 11/14/2009 - 3:10 pm

DCRogers,

I don't find myself in disagreement with you frequently, but we completely disagree on the validity of Ben Dover's comment in reply to the comments of Rob Dawg and others regarding the Geneva Conventions.

He asserts that our adherence to the Geneva Conventions is a possible explanation for our failure to prevail in Afghanistan. I think that is complete nonsense.

He also asserts that honoring the Geneva Conventions means nothing to people who have lost their lives in combat. While they can no longer speak for themselves, I seriously doubt that to be true. I can't even imagine a situation in which a dying solder's last wish would have been having killed more civilians or some such travesty.

Yet you seem to think his points had merit.

Look at who DCRogers gave his "+1" and the clarification he posted after the pig.