State Budget Quote of the Day, and more Bank Failure Preview
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Fri, 11/13/2009 - 2:07pm (170 comments)
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I believe South Carolina tried that once.
Didn't work out so well.
...but this does provide a nice segue to today's first bank failure from Georgia, which should be coming up any minute now.
Alright, I'll start with beer then switch to Extra Spicy Bloody Marys.
Everyone in line at the polling station?
On Nov. 6, the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago also notified Amcore that it found its capital plan unacceptable.
So, has the bank called off the bake sale?
Hmm, Arlington retroceded from the District to the Commonwealth of Virginia. The precedents in the other direction are not exactly voluminous.
Basel Too and I had this discussion a couple of weeks back. At what point, in a truly constitution-busting way, are states simply non-viable?
Time to whip out that old copy of the federalist papers...
C
HomeGnome wrote:
Better pace yourself - may be a long night with SheBair taking down the west coast!
Pres. James Polk bamboozled the Brits into dividing Oregon Territory to the US advantage. A redo to add OR and WA to Canadian British Columbia might be a good deal for us (providing that Soc. Sec. funds are transferred with the deal).
Well, we could have a Good California and a Bad California.
Are any pieces viable?
Only 75 votes, let's go for 80 going once going twice. . . .
Agreed.
Since Congress has the power to make a territory into a state (and did so many times), I can't see why Congress couldn't make a state into a territory - with the approval of the state legislature (and perhaps referendum of the people).
lawyerliz wrote:
JimPortlandOR wrote:
They wouldn't be any less bankrupt tho.
JimPortlandOR wrote:
Would they take the IOU from the Treasury that the SSA is holding?
As I recall, Great Britain had "rotten" boroughs with hardly any
people and managed to deal with that.
Will Cali have a civil war with itself???
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
It is going to be very interesting to see if the administration and Congress bail out the states.
Terry wrote:
OR should be happy to take the counties in N. CA that grow good MJ. OR could become The Weed State.
i don't understand the need to become a territory. just repudiate the obligations, since there's no enforcement mechanism against a sovereign. of course, no one will loan to you for the indefinite future.
actually, they'll loan OPM, just as long as they get a big enough slice. just look at the $500M that the Detroit public school is trying to float...
Will check in later for the tally....off to pick up the wife and pizza, and then movie night! Have a great evening everyone!
ROBOCOP
to add to the "pfizer" story from last post. Glaxo Smith Kline bought Stiefel last year. At the time they said no one had to worry about them closing any facilities. They are closing this one in Upstate NY. A lot of my high school friends and their families (many who never left the area for college but chose to go right to work) work there. Only place around to get good wages and health care. This is an area that used to be filled with dairy farms. They are all gone because they can't compete with the big farm corps. As someone recently said the only profitable farms in upstate NY are growing weed. So, local ag is tits up. Local manufacturing is going tits up. Local trucking company will get hit hard without this business as well. At least the rural poor don't have to settle for squirrel and can go for deer and turkeys.
And mp mentioned a company in Elmira (upstate NY) that appears to be going TU as well.
Stiefel Oak Hill facility to close -- Page 1 -- Times Union - Albany NY
Comin' to you live from the great State...er, Commonwealth...er, ahhh...Territory of Cullyfornia.
Line up right here to git yer gold pannin' kit for the High Sierras. There's gold in them thar hills!
JimPortlandOR wrote:
CA is the "Weed" state. OR is the "Meth" state-
Terry wrote:
They will, they have too. Unlimited borrowing has shown to have no downside. Why not?
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
Hey if GM can avoid their toxic waste obligations thru BK, going territorial should wipe out an state debt.
For CEO John Kansas to make such a disclosure at "an exclusive event" is a violation of regulation Fair Disclosure, unless Bank United put out a simultaneous press release that disclosed the same information. I hope he gets nailed.
Blackhalo wrote:
Nope. GLOD only!
Well the US gov't had a shut down and was the better for it.
Let Cali shut down and let the people and govt idiots have to
deal with it for a couple of weeks. I think something would be
done to cure the dysfunctional gov't, but only something as big
as a shut down would do it.
JimPortlandOR wrote:
Hey, I'm lykin it!
Basel Too wrote:
Xe ?
I recall reading sometime back a post about the governments that refused to pay their debt during the depression - don't recall any states doing that, though.
Terry wrote:
As a non-bubble state resident, I have reservations about my taxes/currency going to baling out the inept, to the benefit of bankers.
Yeah, just go all ROBOCOP
Cinco<
MA is the "Masshole" state!
lawyerliz wrote:
Na, this isn't actually possible. The government is the way it is because democracy doesn't work. There's no way to "work it out now". The same for the Federal government. We've gotten the government we wanted and voted for.
Robocop?
Cinco-X wrote:
nah, not anymore. when drugstores stopped open sales of ephedrine, the meth market got meth mouth, largely.
If California or Michigan were to repudiate their debts, the US financial system would go Mad Max within minutes.
You crazy kids have been up all night with that strobe light again, haven't you?
Good interview:
N.Y. Governor Paterson Says State Must Cut $3.2 Billion: Audio
he mentions he doesn't see how California avoids default at one point
Ok, there are 81 users and only 77 votes, come on 3 to get to 80.
Cool.
HomeGnome wrote:
Right! Glad I didn't originate here
I get to make fun of them too-
Y'all realize that anyone who F5s the FDIC homepage more than 5 times in 30 minutes gets logged?
C
Well, for all the doom talk, states have no problem selling their debt:
Muni Market Absorbs $8.4 Billion as Connecticut Boosts Sale - Bloomberg.com
U.S. state and local governments sold $8.4 billion of bonds this week, revised data compiled by Bloomberg show, as investor demand allowed Connecticut and a California agency to expand their offerings.
Where are all the bond vigilantes?
but what is the advantage of becoming a territory? if you're going to repudiate obligations (debts, pensions, services, etc), then do it as a state.
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
Come on guys. This "too much debt" thing is a myth. We're going to borrow another 11B$ to fund our new "water program" to move water south from the northern part of the state.
CaLi is fine.
mp wrote:
Why is that? Hits to pension funds?
mp wrote:
Michigan? Probably not. The 8th largest economy in the world? Maybe. I wonder if we could trade CA to the Saudi's for oil?
lawyerliz wrote:
I don't see how or why the FDIC uses a hoocoodanode referendum to decide the day's bank closures, what did they do before we had polls?
lawyerliz wrote:
I voted, just to be a good sport. Gambling is too much like the housing or stock markets for my taste.
Basel Too wrote:
Then the territory could re-form as four to eight new states. Win-win!
Cinco-X wrote:
Somebody posted something yesterday (or so) that CaLi was the country's biggest exporter this year. CaLi is fine, no worse than Greece.
Basel Too,
I don't know, maybe people just got carrier away with their imaginations?
For a tiny start.
It would cause a major loss of confidence, just as the bankruptcy of the Bear Stearns hedge fund led to the bankruptcy of Bear Stearns and...
Need I go on?
One ping and one ping only.
Blackhalo wrote:
I think the big pension liabilities in Michigan are with the UAW. Anybody know fer sure?
Counterpointer wrote:
Count me Logged!
sm_landlord wrote:
Sure. 4 to 8 times the political scum. And 4 to 8 times the state agencies to staff with contractors. Works for me!
I should have said, to keep it in the context of what I was posting, that "it shatters the foundations of America's civic myth"
I was referring to the idea of limited government, explaining what Kelo meant to me.
Up to 82 votes!!! A record??
Off to Merritt Island.
BankUnited people have been going door to door, as I
said before.
sm_landlord wrote:
Right! OR would form two states: Pacifica (Pacific Coast/Willamette Valley - for the kools kids) and Cascadia (east of the Cascades - for the righty tighties and libertards)
Yum.
Gnome-made pizza fresh from the oven!
Who ordered the garlic, anchovies, onions and olive pizza?
HomeGnome wrote:
OMG that's great. Red October is my fav. movie.
"Could I buy a pickup?"
Newbie 101 wrote:
I think THAT myth die when we occupied the world after WW2.
sm_landlord wrote:
Why not 51 and control the Senate?
LL<
102 votes 9/10/2009
JimPortlandOR
no, you can't just take the name Cascadia like that, got to keep that one reserved
also, you do realize coastal Oregon would be renamed after a Chrysler minivan right?
Hunt for Red October is why I went subs.
Remember Jack, most things in this ship do not react well to bullets.
Arnold could save us if he stopped being such a damn suit.
Annex Baja. Trade for Catalina if necessary.
Give everything east of the I-5 to Arizona and Nevada.
Build a desalination plant.
Legalize prostitution.
Legalize Marijuana.
Legalize gay marriage.
We'd still be broke, but at least we'd be having a great time.
Welcome to the Land of Fruits and Nuts: Sustainable Ass, Grass, and Sass for the 21st Century.
Betting heavily on a huge BFF for Washington
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. slashed Evergreen Bank’s time frame for raising more capital, telling the institution that it now has less than 30 days to raise more money, either by selling voting shares or merging with another bank.
Southwest is the only US airline picking up more passengers, it's due to promoting their no fees for bags apparently
Sustainable Ass, Grass, and Sass for the 21st Century.
---Love it!
On the Verge of Self Mutilation wrote:
He could save us if he'd just stop pretending he's not the Terminator. I can't figure out what he's waiting for.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
He hasn't reached that point in the script yet.
Actually 1 state did repudiate its debts Indiana in 1841. It had gone crazy with building internal improvements the Mammoth Internal Improvement act of 1836. In 1841 the state could not even pay the interest on its debt, so it gave the 1/2 built works to the creditors at 50 cents on the dollar. As a result Indiana could not borrow until the Civil War or about 20 years. (See Wikipedia among others for this) It appears that Ohio did the same thing at the same time. So states can repudiate but then have to live on a cash only basis for a long time. (All be it this is pre civil war so conditions are very different now)
Heh heh. Do you look good in orange?
C
U.S. Economy: Consumer Sentiment Unexpectedly Falls (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
UNEXPECTEDLY! Who is setting these expectations in the realm of double digit UE?
ldmeier wrote:
Wow, what a novel approach for government to live within its' means.
Uh, yeah.
I'd agree with that.
Nuke wrote:
Including First Officer.
ldmeier wrote:
Now THERE's an idea.....
ldmeier wrote:
A few more states like that, and we might get the small gov and real economy.
ldmeier wrote:
Wasn't this before they were able to just print money!?
Counterpointer wrote:
Maybe, but stripes make his @$$ look fat
Cinco-X wrote:
Do wifes/female partners really ask this question (in real life)?
Bloomberg wrote: "Confidence among U.S. consumers unexpectedly dropped in November as the loss of jobs threatened to undermine the biggest part of the economy."
Should read: Confidence among U.S. Citizens unexpectedly dropped in November as the loss of jobs .......
rps wrote:
This was also before the Federal Courts decided they could force a state or municipality spend money to bus students, give prisoners 144ft^2 each, an hour of sunshine a day, etc.
To amplify if you search for Indiana state debt repudiation you will be lead to a New York Times article from 1851 that lists the 11 states that repudiated debts due to the crash/panic of 1837. (Caused by the murder of the Bank of the US by Andrew Jackson) So it has happend before.
JimPortlandOR wrote:
HELL YES!
JimPortlandOR wrote:
[answering my own question]
I would answer, no honey that dress doesn't make you LOOK fat, you ARE fat.
Note that states could never and cannot print money its only the feds that can do that, its the same issue with countries in the EU where only the ECB can print money. If countries in the EU could print money Spain and Italy would have done so. (Thats the downside of the Euro)
JimPortlandOR wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you are not married.
sm_landlord wrote:
or has been married a very long time.
sm_landlord wrote:
yep, I'm in the state of ungarnishable bliss
No, dear. The dress does not make you look fat.
The lights do.
The truthful answer is "Not as fat as those jeans you wear all the time".
Which is not said. And thus we have the complex sociolinguistics of the lie.
C
Governing and financing territories is the responsibility of the FedGov per the Constitution as amended
So CA could dump all its financial obligations on the United States of America.
It is humiliating, having to rearrange people and ideas in your mind after a lifetime of observing things, the good and the bad changing places.
ldmeier wrote:
Before the Constitution, there was the Articles of Confederation. It allowed state to print money. Every state had their own currency, and Rhode Island in particular printed a lot of money. That is the reason that the convention that drafted the Constitution explicit prohibited states from printing their own currency.
I think that's what will happen.
We're probably going to see a lot of that.
Bailouts of state and some local governments.
These states need to revert back to past spending. All these programs are unsustainable. The main problem is that these very programs created a greater population unable to support themselves.
We are clearly headed towards a standard of living decline. Might as well begin preparing the peeps. "Sorry, you're not entitled to live better than most of the world."
Allen C wrote:
People in North Korea eat grass and tree bark. I think Americans are entitled to live a little better than that.
Sorry, that's already begun.
Yes, finally! Cat nip and bank failure Friday!
What Pfizer story did I miss? They just announced 600 layoffs out of 1000 here. Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a few days...
I agree. Based on this budget director's actions it would seem that the federal govt isn't taking this very seriously yet.
"Sorry, that's already begun. "
But GDP went up
It is pretty much baked in to the cake of Stimpack 2 at this point. No way in heck the states can balance budgets in this environment, plus the WSJ article the other day talking about 900,000 jobs lost by states if we dont funnel more money. Ive been tracking this a while. The states in trouble appear to be on the same page - the longer you flail about and dont make hard choices, and the more optimisticly you do your forecast, the worse off you end up and when everyone does it, it turns into a group extortion of the federal government. Problem is, its this year, next year and even the next that they will pull this BS, and from the looks of it, the Feds will fall for it each time and cave in.
If you give up GDP growth as a goal, then declining population (slowly) is a better fit for an economy that has been strip mined of whatever real productivity it previously had.
A one-child policy ahead? (lol)
mp wrote:
That's the worlds 8th largest economy. It would dwarf the West German reunification with East Germany, at least I think it would. Furthermore, when that happened, the rest of the world wasn't in the deepest recession since GDI. Perhaps the equivalent of a Marshall plan would be better, since it would require CA to show how it intended to become self sustaining before any money was given to them.
As usual I'm always late for the party.
blackhalo wrote:
If your non-bubble state representatives and senators are like mine, the TARP votes made clear your concerns are irrelevant.
Newbie 101 wrote:
Look at it as enlightening. Wisdom.
Counterpointer (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 11/13/2009 - 5:48 pm
Which is not said. And thus we have the complex sociolinguistics of the lie.
We, as human beings, value honesty in communication much less than we think, though we pretend otherwise to keep up the duplicitous illusion of acceptance. In economics as well as in life.
BFF Poll is closed.
pacific coast naptime here. later. count the BFFs!
The standard insolvent approach is to default. "Sorry. How about 50 cents?"
Rajesh wrote:
Here we call it wheat grass and herb tea. And we pay a heckuva lot more for the privilege.
States have already received bail out money. It is called stimulus instead. It does not take a wall street Bankster to make money shift around when there is a general fund.
I don't think it will happen.
They are:
TOO BIG TO FAIL.
Along these lines, I received a solicitation for a news letter in today's postal mail. If I sign up for a year, I get bonuses:
The thing is, I probably get better
tips right here on Calculated Risk. 
mp wrote:
good point.
territory status, much less bellicose than secession
In the rest of the world, the ruling oligarchy gets to wipe their asses with silk while the malnourished, illiterate peasants fight amongst themselves for 2% of the wealth.
Unless we simply accept total corruption and lawlessness, then yes, Americans do deserve to live better than this.
So do the rest of the commonfolk.
Eat the rich!
91 votes in the BFF Poll this week.
Thank you to all who participated.
And to those that didn't: I ask, Why Not?
Allen C wrote:
nope we demand the full face amount
uh, how 'bout ten cents?
Allen C wrote:
Allen C, you're such a Debbie Downer.
Hey what's wrong with being ranked #37 on health performance by the The World Health Organization And #2 on total Expenditure on Health as % of GDP 2000-2005.
No real basis for me to decide then just pick a number.
I do not play well with others.
Sorry.
And I dislike polls.
No, I hate polls.
HomeGnome wrote:
because
so there
Eat the rich!
YouTube - Motorhead - Eat The Rich (Studio Version)
As I commented earlier, any fiscal headroom has to be saved for further bailouts, the national budget shortfall, and the state budgets shortfall. Federal tax receipts for October were less than half of spending. One could conclude that we have big problem.
On the Verge of Self Mutilation wrote:
And we do. Politics is about resolving conflict relatively peacefully. Eventually, when the peasants are a bit more hungry and get their acts together, they'll get a piece of the rich. That's the game.
Re-all-y?
/snark off
Can't you conjure up some loathing?
c
no but sort of figured some kind of something was in place.
mp wrote:
Unfortunately, I suspect that they may also be TOO BIG TO BAIL (out)
"Eat the rich!"
The poor are tough and don't have the flavor of corn fed stake. They taste like chicken
Allen C wrote:
And the prize for understatement goes to...ALLEN C!!! COME ON DOWN!!!
health care reform is a partial bailout of the state, especially if the local governments are able to roll retiree health care and 100% of Medicaid to the Feds...
MP--
Could you summarize your view as to where we go over the next 1-2 years?
Yeah, it's called:
United States of America-- AAA Credit Rating
Buh bye!
gabyjan wrote:
Don't worry. My zombie logs everything too. We've got all your information. Everybody does if you're not actively protecting yourself. Which, in my opinion, is pointless - unless you hate Merica.
Continuing from the paragraph CR quoted from the WSJ article:
Despite cutting elsewhere and furloughing State employees a couple days per month, California legislators do not accept the concept of their own pay or benefits being cut:
Attorney General Brown asked to decide legality of legislative pay cuts in California - Sacramento Politics - California Politics | Sacramento Bee
Officials challenge cut in lawmakers' benefits
Basel Too wrote:
Is that in the bill? Or any of the bills?
Sure, I'd be happy to.
We're going into the shitter.
Anything else?
On the Verge of Self Mutilation wrote:
Filleted or sauteed?
mp wrote:
Na... It'll be ok. We got food, we got entertainment, Hu's got our backs.
We need to merge all the banks into one giant super-mega bank run by a leading corporation in this field.. um.. like say Goldman Sachs. Next step pass all the toxic assets to a taxpayer backed 'debt bank', if GS runs into any bad loans the 'debt bank' will by law have to purchase them at original face value. Instantly and overnight the banking system would be saved and perhaps, more importantly, BIG campaign contributions to all the politicos who made it happen.
~splat
Orion, Century, FL.
KABOOM
C
splat wrote:
I'm lycin it. Perhaps, we can just rename this bank to "The Fed" (instead of GS, but the same management - of course) and then the peasants won't even know anything happened.
mp wrote:
No, that 'bout sums it up.
Bank Closing Information - November 13, 2009
These links contain useful information for the customers and vendors of these closed banks.
Orion Bank, Naples, FL
Century Bank, FSB, Sarasota, FL
My bad a little too slow. Hat tip Counterpointer
The FDIC is getting good at this, the press releases are coming only 10 minutes after closure.
And they say government isn't good at anything
oink
nar
the harrier
California has a good prognosis, I think. Water issues are solveable. We grow food, pump crude, need little in the way of heating and cooling for most of the year. We'll have to learn to do more with less, but life will go on pretty much as before for most of us.
@ca
Look, I apologize for my attitude, but things are bad and they're getting worse.
Notwithstanding a fabulous stock market, pumped up by Ben's blow, and a nice inventory bounce.
century bank
mp --
no need to apologize. frustration and anger are understandable.
Blackhalo wrote:
It was unexpected that people would begin to develop resistance to disinformation this early in the process.
Yes. However, of all the places to be as things get worse, I don't expect California (in general) to go Mad Max. There's enough to go around here, once people re-learn how to share.
"prize for understatement "
It is fascinating in a bad way that we gather at CRs site while most of the country lives in various states of denial and/or ignorance.
A good prognosis?
Dude, the American Dream is over. California Dreamin, too.
Businesses are leaving for cheaper rent and taxes in the midwest and Tex.
Taxes are already bleeding the nose and they're going higher.
Ditto 'fees'.
What we do have will be spent on prisons and revenue generation - like tickets for picking your nose while driving and secret hidden cameras that scan for infractions.
Those who can afford to will leave.
Those who are left will have an even bigger load to haul.
And it'll break their backs.
Cali is goin tits up.
The Green Era notwithstanding.
Or perhaps a recreational vehicle?
Feckless Ness wrote:
This is a joke, right?
Oh yeah, California has so much great stuff.
California's not a hippie commune.
WE don't have shizzle but debt and future obligations.
Hey Prison Guard Union Execs! Hey, can you guys share with the unemployed fellow in Santa Ana?
Yo, Agribusiness Thugs! Please break off a lil sumthin sumthin for the little folks, OK? Thanks.
WE have the anchor. A few have the gold. They'll have enough to hire security to keep us at bay.
Learn to share.... sheeeit.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
it's all good
O's making sure
Gee, after the closure of the second bank of the US, couldn't PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE just print money?
History of central banking in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia