noob goldberg,

is like the ring that rules them all. We need a Gandalf

Without socialist health care the 20+ % of (real) perpetually unemployed (under employed) peasants will die.

(Edit: Which, of course, the Political Type 1's & 3's think is great - survival of the fittest, and all that).

Shill –

Re your previously posted Oathkeepers clip (YouTube -

I paid a little visit to the Marines out in 29 Palms a few weeks ago. The message was simple: we’re training for urban warfare – it never goes out of style. Colonel Mike was even nice to explain to me how the container village they use for simulating an Iraqi town could be re-configured to resemble Chicago. Interesting choice, don’t you think?

Posse comitatus schomitatus – they’re tan, they’re rested, they’re ready.

This is not going to end well.

They won't die without a fight, so you might die, too.

Damnit, they told me that with stimuli jr the 2nd qtr would see marked job growth.

So what? Unemployment is a lagging indicator, right? Does chronic high unemployment become a leading indicator?

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

Now, let's put the shoe on the other foot (bound, but of course) and what do you think Chinese think of American-made finance?

Is the average Chinese citizen as aware of the American financial products as the American consumer is of Chinese products?

,rad CR,

I prefer the nom de home "Bush Leagues"

Black-Eyed Dog wrote:

So what? Unemployment is a lagging indicator, right? Does chronic high unemployment become a leading indicator?

If it's high enough and/or long enough, then yes-

I'll drink to that.

CalculatedRisk wrote:

Usually residential construction is one of the key engines for employment coming out of a recession - but not this time.

As a residential Architect, I agree with you. Which is why I work from a home office.

Heading out to do my bit for the economy and expense a lunch. Try to hold this place together, eh?

4shzl wrote:

could be re-configured to resemble Chicago. Interesting choice, don’t you think?

I have a hard time believing that intelligent people are not contemplating the possibility of domestic unrest witnessing what is going on. I wonder when the breaking point will come- the latest story that Wall Street firms got swine flu vaccine before many high risk people is just one more example. Since I don't believe that Al Qaeda ever posed the kind of existential threat to the United States that made the vast expansion of government powers necessary to me there is only one inescapable conclusion- they were all done with the threat of domestic unrest in mind. The PTB have subverted the political process of elections and now they are closing off the only other avenue of people getting out of bondage.

In other news, it looks like ADP was spot on this month. I tend to trust it more, since it contains real time data. Does anyone know the Birth/Death adjustment this month.

Spunkmeyer:

Yes. The Chinese media hammer this point home constantly (how the US is screwing China with worthless bonds). My wife is Chinese. I think they are setting the stage for the eventual divestment of US assets.

An unemployment hangover is the worst...

All those who hate Chinese products: destroy your laptop right now! And your mobile phone.

Forget the TV. Get rid of a lot of clothes.

I see the jobs report didn't affect your sobriety.

of the three which should matter more- GDP, house prices or unemployment. Presumably they included unemployment as part of their stress because they believed at the time (silly them) that it had a bearing on the other two. So which one do you pay more attention to?

crazyv wrote:

So which one do you pay more attention to?

You mean us? Or the people running things? If you mean reality, the people running things should be looking out for the nobility's interests; ie their assets (and asses).

I have a hard time believing that intelligent people are not contemplating the possibility of domestic unrest witnessing what is going on.

Absolutely. The Marines have a nice little presentation on the U.S. "littoral population" (living within 15 miles of a coastline -- including the Great Lakes). It's huge -- and the Marines are looking forward to being on point wherever the pot comes to a boil.

Does anyone know the Birth/Death adjustment this month.

Fake Jobs 

pigged...

CRAZYV,

Plus 10 my good friend " all of their solutions are predicated on the assumption that the economy was at a sustainable level prior to the financial melt down."

This has been my whole arguement, or the basis for for 3 years now. That everyone's boat, camper, trip to the bahamas, sea doos, beeemers, range rovers, rolex's, trips to vegas, jobs, camp, little league, golf clubs, hunting rifles, weekly gas, house, and yes in a whole lot of instances, jobs, were based on money that was never there, never in the market except by way of the inflated value put to RBMS portfolio's on houses that were purchased with other than conventional loans during 2002-2007 and now refi'd or mod'ed 2008- present by some delay scheme.

That the real employment numbers were / are only slightly above what they were before the tech buble. Once we get back there, we can start to rebuild slowly and legitamately.... with real dollars that we can touch and feel... backed by more than a promise and on the good faith and promise of our treasurery...

4shzl (profile) wrote on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 12:46 pm

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I have a hard time believing that intelligent people are not contemplating the possibility of domestic unrest witnessing what is going on.

Absolutely. The Marines have a nice little presentation on the U.S. "littoral population" (living within 15 miles of a coastline -- including the Great Lakes). It's huge -- and the Marines are looking forward to being on point wherever the pot comes to a boil.

Again what is your position Marine to your Oath?

I, for one, would love to see a Marine Assault on Wall St; that's for sure!

Or maybe these Semper Fi folks don't take treason very seriously.

crazyv wrote:

that they need all the expanded powers to combat.

Yeah, you're right. It's most important to create an a good enemy. If the dumbass peasants have an external enemy they'll be much happier, and so will the nobility.

So which one do you pay more attention to?

unemployment, by far

Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found

The birth death model added 86k jobs this month, 26k in the category including retail trade. This jives well with the increasing numbers of empty storefronts in most malls.

Fiduciary Doodie wrote:

with real dollars that we can touch and feel... backed by more than a promise and on the good faith and promise of our treasurery

Kinda old-school. I'm betting on the nobility wanting to keep a nice fiat currency, which they can use to their own benefit. What matters in any financial system is: are the worthy benefiting.

America has one major unique product it manufactures and markets besides debt packages: Consumers.

Sounds like a little meme seeding going on here.

LOL. I'm not a Marine. But I sure as hell wouldn't bet against them.

I would hope they would up-hold the Constitution for which they were sworn in to protect.

Durable consumer production has fallen off the cliff lately, though.

Well I'm off to Starbucks to support the American economy. Pulling up to the boutique one in style on my bike conspicuously carrying my Iphone (for the image). Not the Starbucks inside the Safeway next-door that the hoi poi use.

King George II shredded the constitution, dude.

Say hello to all the unemployed at Starbucks for me. Let them know that the next AA meeting is at the vacant former Starbucks store on the next corner.

shill wrote:

I would hope they would up-hold the Constitution for which they were sworn in to protect.

The thing to remember is just how big the U.S. is and how relatively few the armed forces are. Sure, they could control key cities, resources, communications points. But civil order in the other 90 percent of U.S. territory depends on cooperation of local authorities. Think Afghanistan; we don't have the mountains so much, but we have lots and lots of space.

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

King George II shredded the constitution, dude.

All hail the nobility, and the squid which has captured our government.

"Say hi to the two hotties for me. "

As long as you say hi to the hotties and the yoga class for me? Agreed

I'm not sure how well it will go over though.

Me: "I'd like a double espresso. By the way NotARealAmerican asked me to say hi to you".

HomeGnome:

This has been a problem for decades. In the 1960s black power gangs mutinied on one of the carriers (I think it was the Constellation). On some ships, certain spaces were off limits to officers/chiefs. We draw from the society at large, so we have all the pathologies seen in the US as a whole. If gangs are a problem in the US, they will be a problem in the military. That being the case, there are steps we can take. Recently, the military changed the policy towards gang tattoos. It used to be you could get a waiver if you had one provided you could convince the recruiter you had quit. Not hard to do. Now, gang tattoos are an automatic, unwaiverable disqualifier for military service.

Worth a look:
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/uploads/Nov2009/employment-trends.png

Me: "I'd like a double espresso. By the way NotARealAmerican asked me to say hi to you".

Them: We got the jpg he sent. eeewwwww

Bah, we all know it's just a piece of paper. That constitution stuff is so old-school.

I like you NRA.....But I am sorry, many have died for that piece of paper....I for one am one who would. No this is not chest pounding or Key board revolutionary stuff....it is the LAW! of this great land and the powers that be are wiping their ass with it.

I know I know right wing nut right? sorry I am not, I just love my country. And its direction is not good at the moment.

The Purple Fascist Party!

HomeGnome wrote:

None of you have a favorite drink?
It is BFF so I know some, if not all, of you are having a few today.

I make my own beer, so that's how I mostly roll these days. Hefeweizen and English Bitter on tap right now.

I am also an all grain homebrewer.
Almost brewed 1000 gallons over the years!

The continued and going chronic loss of quality, good paying jobs to support our mountain of debt is defying gravity and all laws of science. It's all about going bananas, like a banana boat corporatist state, as we transition from an economy that creates good debt to one that creates more bad debt and also prints truckloads of money to support and liquidate bad debt . I think that is what gold is telling us and why India bought 200 tons of gold from the IMF in the last month instead of US treasuries. This caused their currency to rise against the dollar around 2%. We have sent good jobs and our technology to India for years, while India recently has been buying industrial machinery from closing US plants for pennies on the dollar. Orwell would say it's not what you've done for me in the past, but what you've done lately that counts. Is India presently more concerned with protecting their foreign reserves than future transfer of US jobs?

" Me: "I'd like a double espresso. By the way NotARealAmerican asked me to say hi to you".

I think her response will likely be "OK. But did Elvis ask you to say hi to me?" "

I already told her that Elvis said hi.

She said "Not him again sigh..." lol

Spunk,
Do you like the hefe as a more fruity banana flavor or the real clove-y type?

"squid theory" - that has legs ~

shill (profile) wrote on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 9:32 am

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GOT GOLD? They don't make it easily anymore.

Watched a documentary on 'gold mining' some years back; very polluting process with the use of mercury and other solvents. Is it still an earth unfriendly process?

Spunkmeyer wrote:

aka Squid

The term Squid is getting blurred too. Squid was supposed to mean GS. I think in the big picture of things GS is small potatoes. They're just a company. All societies are run - to some extent - for the nobility of the society. Representative democracies are supposed to allow the peasants some control over this nobility.

Europe still has some control, but the EU will eliminate that.
The US and China now have the same system. Just the mythology delivered to the peasants is different.

Bob Dobbs wrote:

But civil order in the other 90 percent of U.S. territory depends on cooperation of local authorities.

I think the history of dictatorships shows that it takes relatively small numbers of people to control a very large population if one is prepared to use the appropriate level of violence

So does that mean the glod hoarding, gun toting, seed bank having, doomers on the board are nefarious evil doers because they've planned for domestic unrest?

shill wrote:

And its direction is not good at the moment.

I'm not saying I agree. But the reality is what you described. There's no going back. Constitutions are generally just products of circumstances at the time they were created. The US is wayyyyyy different then than now. The nobility and peasants have completely changed.

We're like China now.

feralpig wrote:

there are a lot of people in the Marines, and not just the usual nuts in any organization, thinking about how they would respond to domestic unrest

The folks I met with were extremely shrewd and purposeful. They did not invite a bunch of eggheads (university types) aboard their base because they had nothing better to do. They were definitely on a mission -- looking for something. In a word, I think it's legitimacy.

CalculatedRisk wrote:

I can't imagine wanting a job and being unemployed for two years. Many of these people are really trapped. Usually residential construction is one of the key engines for employment coming out of a recession - but not this time.

Maybe you've been fortunate not to go into the tailspin so many longterm unemployed do; they just.... give up. Almost happened to me once but I had good instincts and kept going through the motions of job search even though I was dead inside. The economy didn't suck at that point, and I got lucky.

The other option is they don't stay unemployed and go into the cash-only/underground economy while maintaining their benefits. Read an article out of Las Vegas the other day charting an increasing number of Anglo faces in the crowds of casual laborers hanging out in front of local Home Depots and other large hardware centers. Yes, that'll bump some the existing labor out of that market; but since of lot of them are illegals, they don't show up on any employment stats, ever.

Things get bad enough, you'll start seeing Anglo pickers move back into the fields.

I would hope they would up-hold the Constitution for which they were sworn in to protect.

It's kinda cute that you think that still matters.

"I have a hard time believing that intelligent people are not contemplating the possibility of domestic unrest witnessing what is going on."

Mr. and Mrs. middle-level-good-manners-blackberry-carrying-managers are not going to start a Revolution without total mental degeneration and REBIRTH into wild-eyed, tear-gas sucking, "f**k the police", stone and Molotov cocktail throwing little troublemaker. It requires maybe even YEARS of RETRAINING.

The time to stop a revolution is at the beginning, not the end.-- Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.

I was thinking more along the lines of "To Catch a Predator". If you just label everyone against you a child molestor, you can cart off all dissent and the suburban mommies driving recklessly to soccer practice won't bat an eye. Moms while useful for a few things, are completely useless outside their role as mothers if their motherhood guides every perception, attitude and fear in life.

4shzl:

You know that's a movie, right. I read that book (Making the Corps). Very similar to my experiences in boot camp. That being said, those who think that the military is chomping at the bit to light up folks in Chicago or LA haven't spent much time with servicemen.

One of the things we did right as a nation was keeping the military relatively apolitical. Which is why political solicitation/banners, etc are not allowed on base. Also, servicemen are are loyal to the country, rather than individual officers and units. In fact, lots of military officers were very upset when recently retired generals got into the business of endorsing presidential candidates.

crazyv - '...imprisoning Americans without trial...'
crazyv, what's your 'position' on this?

crazyv wrote:

I think the history of dictatorships shows that it takes relatively small numbers of people to control a very large population if one is prepared to use the appropriate level of violence

Yes, and most people won't be affect one-way-or-the-other. The dictatorship just wants power. If you don't care, they won't bother you. Most poeple happy if they have food and entertainment. That's all Hu is trying to do.

'You mean the ones they got were safe...'
Yeah...don't hurt the Squid...we 'need' the Squid...the Squid Rules!

...as is everyone in the executive and legislative branches...do you feel better now?

The evidence seems to show conclusively that the Gestapo (backed by the SS and local police where necessary) was extremely effective in suppressing any civilian discontent. Surely, between the DHS/FBI/NSA/CIA the US could replicate the Gestapo/SS without breaking sweat, and local law enforcement will not be barrier, but a support.

Tasers, baby! Enhanced Interrogation! Rendition! Camps!

E Thomas St. (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 10:09 am

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I was thinking more along the lines of "To Catch a Predator". If you just label everyone against you a child molestor, you can cart off all dissent and the suburban mommies driving recklessly to soccer practice won't bat an eye. Moms while useful for a few things, are completely useless outside their role as mothers if their motherhood guides every perception, attitude and fear in life.

Most Animals with a cub in tow, are a dangerous and formidable beast! I will often switch sidewalks to avoid a female with a cub or two in tow.

Elvis,

Eat a bran muffin. You will eventually feel much lighter.

crazyv wrote:

I think the history of dictatorships shows that it takes relatively small numbers of people to control a very large population if one is prepared to use the appropriate level of violence

I'm not sure they are. Dictatorships which have lasted have done so by leaving large portions of the population alone: the message is, don't stick your nose into government, and we'll let you be.

An dictatorship which occupies to enforce a situation seen as intolerable by the locals, isn't going to do very well.

My favorite story along this lines was the time, around '43, when Himmler decided to make Berlin "Jew free" as a birthday present to Der Fuhrer. There were only a few hundred left, either spouses of well-connected Germans or workers with very valuable skills. The SS rounded them up and put them in a holding facility. And all their good German spouses and friends showed up in the street outside, hundreds, and began to scream. They wouldn't go away, and Himmler feared to unleash the SS on "good Germans." So they gave in and released them.

Even "absolute" dictatorships only persist with the implied assent of a "comfortable class." Make them uncomfortable, and the ground begins to shake under your Supreme Leader.

Nuke wrote:

You know that's a movie, right. I read that book (Making the Corps). Very similar to my experiences in boot camp. That being said, those who think that the military is chomping at the bit to light up folks in Chicago or LA haven't spent much time with servicemen.

With all due respect, my very strong impression is that the mission is largely irrelevant -- what counts is the Homeric virtues of men in battle. BTW, when I asked Col. Mike what his favorite movie about the military was, he answered without hesitation: "Blackhawk Down."

Clear enough, trooper?

that goes without saying....

"I paid a little visit to the Marines out in 29 Palms a few weeks ago. The message was simple: we’re training for urban warfare – it never goes out of style. Colonel Mike was even nice to explain to me how the container village they use for simulating an Iraqi town could be re-configured to resemble Chicago. Interesting choice, don’t you think?"

4shzl, When I was in basic training a long time ago, it was a Vietnamese village. Yeah, you're right, that training really came in handy...
(snark off)

All this misery is due to the Fed. Greensham and Bernanke should be publicly disgraced. They purposely turned a blind eye to decades of Wall St. fraud. Moreover, they pushed people towards risk by praising Wall St. and lowering the returns on safe investments to negative real levels. Look at current I-bonds. They yield ZERO.

eCONomists with junk theories designed to enrich Wall St.

I know a lot of people in the military and they all seem to be good eggs to me.

'People were drunk on Heloc...when we lost Habeus Corpus...'

Exactly.

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

Anybody else notice how militaristic police departments have gotten since the turn of the century?

Then entire society is militaristic. Mericans love kicking ass. We've even got a kick-ass frat-boy party.

Twilight zone, month 8. Market rallies again. Why not? Depressions are fun!

4shzl:

With all do respect, my parent were academics, and I grew up with folks like you.
1) I am not a trooper. I am a squid. Get it right.
2) I am always astounded by the ability of some folks to look at large swaths of the population as monolithic entities without the ability to think, feel, act for themselves. Like you characterization of Marines as driven solely by macho values, without concern for the cause they they employed. Would you paint other communities (say minorities) with a similarly broad brush?
3) My favorite movie is Hunt for Red October, which jives with my profession. What does that say about me?

Merchant of Fear- I am in Ben Franklin's camp those who would sacrifice their liberties for a little more security deserve neither. I think the Patriot act was, as were warrant less wire taps, imprisoning citizens without trial, torture. The Soviet Union posed a greater existential threat to the United States but we never felt the need to back pedal on the basic thrust of US history which was the expansion of rights not the contraction. The worst that a bunch of terrorists can do is kill a few people. Bad as 9/11 was it pales in comparison to the people who die because driving while using cell phones, accidental gun shot victims etc. An earlier generation was willing to charge the beaches in Normandy in defense of liberty and a bunch knuckle heads were able to get this generation to give up their liberties.

Oppression and authoritarianism grows out of a need to hide how the government and related institutions both private and public really work...the storyline and 'official narrative' must be preserved with the threat and even execution of disciplinary 'violence' or 'maintaining social order'.

The military was used quite frequently to curb labor unrest at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries.They occupied some areas for years and had no hesitation in breaking heads or shooting "anarchists"(Couer D'alene,etc).The military believes in order and hierarchy as core values.

shill wrote:

Bush passed this Unconstitutional piece of toilet paper

Then you are a true defender of the constitution rather than the lot that proclaims they are but would label anybody who opposed it as a "terrorist lover".

Nuke-It means thank you! for your service and putting your life on line for our country!

no matter how messed up the crackheads in washington are!

CalculatedRisk wrote:

I can't imagine wanting a job and being unemployed for two years. Many of these people are really trapped. Usually residential construction is one of the key engines for employment coming out of a recession - but not this time.

I really cannot help but tell the story of my husband who got a degree in Mechanical Engineering. He was employed by GE for 4 years when the Vietnam war ended and was laid off (despite 4 patents). He worked for a local trucking company for almost 24 months, cleaning toilets, delivering trucks and whatever else they wanted him to do. He didn't want to move but did and immediately started looking for work again. We both lived in fear the rest of his career of job loss, came close a few times too. Fear is a big motivator even without the talking heads. Neither of us ever got a handout or expected one, both of us worked our way through college. We are what some old school people call 'self made' but to many today, I suppose we wouldn't be looked upon as 'successful'. People who played by the rules, didn't overspend, etc. lives are being dismantled as today, there aren't the industries to support the large number of graduates coming out of college and many of them in hefty debt.

I'm sorry for personalizing all this, I'm sure it is a yawner but there is a point. What is happening today isn't unlike the great depression. It will change people and their attitudes towards money, debt, consumption and jobs forever. We've gone through what has to be the most prosperous time in history even though much of it was delusional and based on capital markets replacing real wages, real benefits, real productivity. Until we produce more than we consume, save more than we spend this economy will not recover.

Without an economy which allows for some degree of security in life, that includes those whose skills, trades and talents are diverse, we cannot expect social, political or economic stability.

You have to wonder what kind of 'meds' the U.S. Army psychiatrist who went 'psycho' was on and had 'access' to...

Don't you believe if those damn women wouldn't be taking jobs away from men, the United States would be in much better shape. Get back into the kitchen, women. Pregnant and barefoot is what you need. Your man needs a job. Women represent everything that is wrong with America today.

Then you are a true defender of the constitution rather than the lot that proclaims they are but would label anybody who opposed it as a "terrorist lover".

I like to think I am a defender of My Constitution, as far as Terrorist Domestic or otherwise.... Public hangings come to mind....that will make them think twice.

"Then entire society is militaristic. Mericans love kicking ass. We've even got a kick-ass frat-boy party. "

That faded away for a moment during Vietnam War because bloody war actually came really close to ordinary Americans, their boys and girls started dying. Then the "loving kicking ass" came back during "going all pro Top-Gun" 80's....

Juvenal Delinquent (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 12:03 pm

2000's: USA is the world's largest debtor and importer of oil.

And the thirties brought a time so bad it is seared into the memories of everyone who lived through it, despite all those advantages we possessed. Now, with a bubble economy controlled by speculators, in debt to our eyeballs, few usable natural resources that aren't "strategic", with terrible future prospects and a hollowed-out manufacturing base and an overeducated populace competing for jobs they're all overqualified for, it's gonna be totally different.

I just got this through NetFlix.
Delivered today.

Movie for me this afternoon.

Crazy Ivan!

I think in the big picture of things GS is small potatoes.

Is that the message your overlords are trying to propagate now? They must be afraid.

If you can make the people who question 'The Great Lies'... the 'Enemy of the People' even though they ARE The People, you have turned the Justice system upside down to maintain 'The Great Lies'...

BoB Dobbs- I don't disagree with anything you say - but it doesn't change the point that I was trying to make which is that it only takes a small number of people to convince a majority to "mind their own business"

Picking up on your thread- most people don't realize that the extermination camps were set not because they were more efficient but because it made the killing more impersonal. In terms of efficiency the einsatzgruppen were much more effective. For the Germans however the problem was that it was creating two types of people- those who suffered serious mental break downs and those who enjoyed it too much. Neither group was desirable in a military force. So yes even dictaroship's have limits on their power but the bar is awfully low.

4shzl,

Paranoia?

Always possible.

sdtfs wrote:

They must be afraid.

I don't mean they aren't powerful BUT, in context. It's been true for many many years that the top 1% owned 50% of the country. THAT is the problem. GS is just part of the top 1% (that's 3 million people), and not that big a component. I worry that the peasants will fixate on GS - a convienent space-goat - and forget that the real problem is the nobility's control of the government.

bearly- why are you watching?

I blame the lack of starch in collars.

Tom you still wearing those dam collard shirts?

NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 12:31 pm

GS is just part of the top 1% (that's 3 million people), and not than big a component. I worry that the peasants will fixate on GS - a convienent space-goat - and forget that the real problem is the nobility's control of the government.

Many squid in that pool that would be ready and willing to take the alpha squid's place as prime servant of the plutocracy.

So how bad can it really be? Or are we just not as HTFU as our forefathers a generation or two ago?

Like I said, watch the American Experience episode airing this week on PBS and you will immediately understand the difference between Roosevelt's CCC and Obamanomics. l

Roosevelt came into office understanding from day 1 how important employment (any employment) is to out-of-work Americans. He defied the establishment to create jobs at CCC as fast as possible.

Obama came into office sitting around with his team of advisors and listening to their crap, which focused mainly on continuing th rescue of the financial system and dispensing "stimulus." Unlike Roosevelt, Obama had no real ideas of his own, mainly because he has so very little applicable experience of his own.

Unlike Roosevelt, Obama has no stomach for defying the establishment and appealing directly to the hoy ploy. Obama uses common people as props in his theater, not as a force for economic and political action.

SSBN 628 USS Tecumseh

Welcome aboard sir.

thank you also for you service! A good book on sales tactics states that we never can say thank you enough...it's missing and when used properly scores big time....

crazyv wrote at 1022

"I am in Ben Franklin's camp those who would sacrifice their liberties for a little more security deserve neither.....Bad as 9/11 was it pales in comparison to the people who die because driving while using cell phones, accidental gun shot victims etc. An earlier generation was willing to charge the beaches in Normandy in defense of liberty and a bunch knuckle heads were able to get this generation to give up their liberties."

outstanding comment

Reading these comments about former service men and where they stand, make me proud that I am in great company....in fact I am privileged. Though I never served, I do have 60 years of Military background in my family.

I tip my hat to you gentleman.

rich (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 11/6/2009 - 1:33 pm replyIgnore userSo how bad can it really be? Or are we just not as HTFU as our forefathers a generation or two ago?

Like I said, watch the American Experience episode airing this week on PBS and you will immediately understand the difference between Roosevelt's CCC and Obamanomics. l

Roosevelt came into office understanding from day 1 how important employment (any employment) is to out-of-work Americans. He defied the establishment to create jobs at CCC as fast as possible.

Obama came into office sitting around with his team of advisors and listening to their crap, which focused mainly on continuing th rescue of the financial system and dispensing "stimulus." Unlike Roosevelt, Obama had no real ideas of his own, mainly because he has so very little applicable experience of his own.

Unlike Roosevelt, Obama has no stomach for defying the establishment and appealing directly to the hoy ploy. Obama uses common people as props in his theater, not as a force for economic and political action.

*** concur** also, worthy to note is that FDR lived amongst the establishment, was related to the establishment, dined with the establishment therefore he knew what he was standing up against as well as the very real threat of how bad it could be, and chose wisely, while others since then are guided by themselves and or their thinking they know the enemy and misjudging thereby making them the enemy that they do not know.

Blue is pretty.

crazyv wrote:

Feralpig- just curious do you believe that enhanced interrogation and what was done by the CIA and at Abu Gharib and other places was torture.

I happen to believe that it was. I also believe that most of the people who did it didn't think so because they had been ordered to do it. I also believe that the natural inclination of every soldier is to obey and order first and think about it later.

Me:

In answer to your question about the CIA/Abu Gharib, I don't know, but probably.

I would question whether it is the "natural inclination" of American soldiers to obey first and think about it later. I'm sure that American soldiers and other military personnel are well-disciplined, but that is in part because they also believe that what they are doing is legitimate. Take that away and I don't think they would follow orders. In fact, they are more sensitive to the Constitution and the rights and duties of citizens than ordinary citizens.

Caveat: this is based on knowing a few military people socially, not actual military experience.

In terms of fascism, I am more worried about 1) identity politics-based leaders and 2) law enforcement officers than about the military.

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

Without an economy which allows for some degree of security in life, that includes those whose skills, trades and talents are diverse, we cannot expect social, political or economic stability.

I heard an old FDR speech the other day, one he made during the war, that made that case in no uncertain terms. As that being the world our troops would need to come home to if the world was ever to be secure. Interesting that he said "world,' isn't it?

rich wrote:

Like I said, watch the American Experience episode airing this week on PBS and you will immediately understand the difference between Roosevelt's CCC and Obamanomics.

Yeah, very good points. The people IN government in 1930's were actually somewhat representative of the population. As was the media. Reporters were actually working classes. In the last 40 years (or so) everyone that can question authority, or IS authority, is basically the same social class. The "liberal media claim" is, in a sense, correct. The upper-class intellectuals are generally liberals and don't think like the "roobs" below them. The media believes in bigness.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Yeah, very good points. The people IN government in 1930's were actually somewhat representative of the population. As was the media. Reporters were actually working classes.

We can't leave out the consolidation of the media into conglomerates. Independent media outlets are all but dead in the US.

A lot of the political/economic/finance websites and mainstream media are 'damage control' for the Great Lies that have holes in them and must be plugged if the 'consensus' of public opinion for the Great Lies is to be maintained...

Independent media outlets are all but dead in the US.

Except for that little thing we call the internet.

Spunkmeyer:

One of the more distressing trends of recent years has been the incestuous relationships between media types and the political class: Andrea Mitchell, Cokie Roberts, George Stephanapoulos, Tony Snow are just some examples of high ranking media personalities employed by or married to major political figures.

"Is it unsympathetic to talk about death?"

.
No, but it seems pretty stupid unless you've experienced the ramifications second-hand. Kinda like not taking into account the "opinions of abortion" from the aborted.......

"This is a record 3.6% of the civilian workforce."

I continue to doubt UE as a "lagging' indicator in an environment with such weak housing and dollar.

New Deal: The government is your daddy.
New Steal: Hu's your daddy.

Some of the political/econ internet 'analysis' sites are just 'rabble rousing' and/or 'name collection sites' for the people who don't buy the 'official' storyline any more...the people who see there are obvious holes in the 'narrative'...

"I happen to believe that it was. I also believe that most of the people who did it didn't think so because they had been ordered to do it. I also believe that the natural inclination of every soldier is to obey and order first and think about it later."

I held several "jobs" in my short career. Each of which was to either blow a large portion of humanity to kingdom come without them having time to kiss goodbye, or blowing myself and 3 others up to keep crazies from obtaining those assets that could carry out that mission. While the vast populus of my age that time were stressing over the 5 dollar check they wrote for beer that night would bounce before mom and dad deposited funds in their account.

They could never understand, will never understand, can't pretend to understand.

My vision is larger because of it, my undertsanding truer. I know that if asked, i had to believe that my pushing the button was "retalitory" and that i potentially was loving loved ones as well....

I, the son of an academic and a bank president.... and i had something to come home to, my brothers, many, only had the defunct steel mills, the ghettos, or the coal mines...

I cherish their right to have opinions and feelings, as i do yours. And to think that we are not intelligent enough to make informed decisions on our actions, dismisses what these men and women go through ... you would incorrectly presume too much to think we didn't think...Sir we think everyday about what we may have to be called to do.

Nuke wrote:

One of the more distressing trends of recent years has been the incestuous relationships between media types and the political class: Andrea Mitchell, Cokie Roberts, George Stephanapoulos, Tony Snow are just some examples of high ranking media personalities employed by or married to major political figures.

I totally agree... especially when the ties between them are so carefully omitted from being mentioned during the coverage. At least Maria Shriver had the decency to get out of broadcasting when Arnold became the Governator.

The SHTF when the dole is taken away...

crazyv wrote:

cking up on your thread- most people don't realize that the extermination camps were set not because they were more efficient but because it made the killing more impersonal. In terms of efficiency the einsatzgruppen were much more effective. For the Germans however the problem was that it was creating two types of people- those who suffered serious mental break downs and those who enjoyed it too much. Neither group was desirable in a military force. So yes even dictaroship's have limits on their power but the bar is awfully low.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. On impersonality: a couple of weeks back a new Dem congressmen made some waves in Congress by denouncing the GOP health plan as "don't get sick" and "if you do, die quickly." And he compared the health care system to the Holocaust. Later I saw him on Rachel Maddow's show and she started to jump on him for the Holocaust reference (I guess he violated copyright or something, snark), and he backed off. But the comparison is true, in that 40-50,000 people die yearly in the states because of a very impersonal process that refuses coverage or denies claims based in large part of profits. And then all these clean-cut apparatchniks go home at night to play with the kids, wash the car, meet with their bible study group, and so on. It's all very impersonal.

I am very hopeful that here in America more of us are railing against the impersonal meatgrinder institutions as we see how they're beginning to come after all of us, not just the few unfortunates we were able to ignore. Can 20 percent of a country like this rule to the open and common discontent of the other 80 percent -- and it's getting there. It is my hope not.

Juvenal Delinquent wrote:

Anybody else notice how militaristic police departments have gotten since the turn of the century?

No-

spunkmeyer:

And Shriver, as I recall, was a Kennedy by marriage. It's almost like we have created an aristocracy in this country that is more loyal to its class/bloodline than the nation as a whole.

So now that this discussion has meandered all over the universe, what does anyone project is actually going to be the cure for the UE rate?

Family is forever. Countries are temporary.

Spunkmeyer,
Yeah...Andrea Mitchell being married to Alan Greenspan is an OBVIOUS journalistic 'conflict of interest'...duh!

Will the UE rate drop if we retrain people in certain skill sets that are in demand now? And do we have certain sklll sets in demand now?

Family is forever. Countries are temporary

No, STD's usually are forever. Families - they are good for the 1st marriage or 7 years. Whatever comes first.

Don't forget the BLS Birth/Death revision, to be tacked onto January when reported in February, was preliminarily estimated at -864k (?) which would be a 0.6% (?) boost in unemployment, and thus we would be at 10.8% today
[ the revision is to correct for the guesses of small business creation/closing from February 2008 to Feb 2009. the B/D model is still off the mark and if you want to include an estimated revision for Feb 2009 to Feb 2010, it will probably total around 2mn ]
so this is the worst recession since the great recession of the 1930s by any measure

I took the oath to protect the Constitution at the age of 18. I think it matters, and the Oath still holds. It is funny how the folks that don't think it matters have never been in the service. I guess we will see.

THE INTERNET IS JUST A TRACKING DEVICE...plus internet porn is a huge global operation for mucho bucks...the rest is just decadent escapism or distraction...much of the internet is spin for The Great Lies...misinformation and damage control...spinmeistering and such...

EvilHenryPaulson wrote:

so this is the worst recession since the great recession of the 1930s by any measure

Oh but in the perverse capital markets...thats a

I suppose once no one buys PRODUCTS of mass destruction anymore and are raising chickens in their backyards, we all go back to grass huts then perhaps they will eat each other and we can start again.

Much of the internet spin is just trying to get us used to the idea of a Crash and WWIII...

merchants of fear wrote:

Preserving and enforcing 'The Great Lies' is why 'freedoms' have to be sacrificed...

Folks that complain about "The Big Lie" tend to be the ones telling the real whoppers. Look on the national scene, and you'll know who I'm talking about-

Outsider asked: "So now that this discussion has meandered all over the universe, what does anyone project is actually going to be the cure for the UE rate?"

Time.

We've had 10%+ unemployment before (in the '80's), it stayed that high for several months and then came back down. The economy is already in recovery so improvement in the unemployment rate is already in the pipeline (although it's a pretty long pipeline).

Sebastian

Nuke wrote:

And Shriver, as I recall, was a Kennedy by marriage. It's almost like we have created an aristocracy in this country that is more loyal to its class/bloodline than the nation as a whole.

McCain/Hensley, Kerry/Heinz.

merchants of fear wrote:

Yeah...Andrea Mitchell being married to Alan Greenspan is an OBVIOUS journalistic 'conflict of interest'...duh!

Absolutely. And yet, there she is...

It has been true that the harder you fall, the higher you bounce
That's because of credit expansion
It was the leading indicator
We have credit contraction now
Good luck with that Nighttime Theory and Banker Ninja Be Men
Have fun with your crash course in economics without a teacher that you need
edit: the same did hold true under an inventory cycle though, but then it was lack of supply that was the intertemporal link with current cash assets to balance the equation. it gets a little more nuanced, but suffice it to say that the companies with retained earnings aren't going to spur an inventory cycle in the greater economy

Spin control...calling all commenters...please sign in and spin...thank you.

Some people collect stamps. Some collect shells. I collect STDs as happy memories of the people I slept with.

Sebastian:

Good to have you back. I disagree, of course. Nothing says that unemployment has to come down. Many countries have very high structural unemployment. Of course, they also have a much stronger safety net, family structure, are not burdened by being the world police, etc.

EHP, is the revision actually going to add to the UE number? Or is it going to be filed away in some accounting hole somewhere? I find it hard to believe they're going to have to jack up the UE number that high in Feb when they revise.

Oxtail,
Internet porn is for 'viruses' and adware (spyware) too...but there is stuff for sale...

ehp

credit score destruction is my drumbeat....unless loose underwriting comes back...stick a ford in everything...the scores I see nationwide daily are making it hard for banks to lend....so credit score jubliee is my guess on outcome....

The internet is for porn. But who actually pays for it?

a. Priests
b. Fetish lovers
c. The woman of America - as they are being degraded
d. Republicans - they think it ensures their privacy

Pick one - or two....or all of them

Fiduciary Doodie wrote:

"But isn't this a state issue?

No, health care is a national issue with national organizations dominating individual state markets, or owning subsidiaries who do, or at the very least taking part in what is essentially a trust as I see it. When I said "states" I meant the old U.S. in shorthand.

you go bernie

Sanders: Big banks must be broken up in a year - MarketWatch

nova,
I see you on. I have a question.

How come you don't use LaTeX for your stories? Seems like you would benefit tons from formatting it into book-form. To me LaTeX looks like it might be something that replaces Word.

The trade war has been ongoing; the US has been ignoring it. The yuan peg is blatant protectionism, yet we've been sitting around letting it happen.