of course they are repeating mistakes form the s&l crisis

sheesh that was way back in the 80s...who remembers back that far

Like TEOTWAWKI well or just "Depression for the Common Man" well?

This is the political version of "extend and pretend."

mock turtle wrote:

who remembers back that far

Bueller? Bueller?

"Go easy"? Not gonna happen. This is the new FDIC. No margin for error.

"Politicians are putting pressure on regulators to go easy on small community banks across the U.S. ..."

Echos of don't close down my contributor, I mean, Dealership...

Continuing our series "Your Tax Dollars At Work"

Goldman benefits from trading bonanza
Traders at Goldman Sachs recorded only one daily loss in the third quarter, highlighting the trading bonanza sweeping Wall Street as central banks continue to pump billions of dollars into the financial system.
The performance – revealed on Wednesday in a regulatory filing – compares with two losing trading days in the previous quarter and confirms that the authorities’ drive to revive markets after the crisis is yielding huge windfalls for some banks.
Before the crisis, banks regularly recorded trading losses on several days in a quarter.
Goldman made more than $100m in profits on 36 of the 65 days in the three months to September and recorded more than $50m in profit on more than eight out of 10 trading days, the filing shows.
...
Goldman’s ability to reap large profits – its trading operations had net income of $6bn during the third quarter – without ramping up risk underlines the changing nature of trading on Wall Street.
...
Trading in the US fixed-income market this year has been dominated by the Federal Reserve, which recently finished buying a planned $300bn in Treasury debt, and is on track to complete buying $1,250bn of mortgage securities by the end of March. These purchases have helped keep market rates low and also normalised the relationship between government bonds and other fixed-income securities.
Dealers say banks have made big profits by the timing of Fed purchases of government debt and subsequent Treasury debt sales, and by betting that the relationship between Treasury bonds and other fixed-income securities would normalise.

Have you thanked your government yet?

MrM - I would, but I don't have to go right now.

OT:

JPMorgan Chase & Co. has agreed to pay $75 million in fines and forfeit $647 million in fees to settle federal regulators' charges that it made unlawful payments to friends of public officials to win municipal bond business in Jefferson County, Ala.

I have mixed feelings about this arrangement. JP shouldn't have been able to take Jefferson County to the cleaners like it did, but Jefferson County shouldn't get a free pass from corrupt politicians selling its own citizens down the river that horribly...
.
Not enough winners and not enough losing...

"The sooner the FDIC completes the process of closing failed banks, the better for the remaining banks and the economy."

Does this apply to Citi, BAC, WFC, and JPM as well?

Danny Davis is my Congressman! Glad to see he's helping us little guys out...

Actually, I'm a little surprised he had time in between his lobbyist-paid trips to call up regulators and try to push them around. Hmm. Maybe he called from the plane.

no, the 19 Lords of Doom () are protected by a shroud of eternal darkness

mock turtle wrote:

or go hat in hand to the federal reserve

But they get their collateral from the Treasury...

blackhalo

none of the dems are still in office....i think (guess) john glenn from ohio was the last to leave

but economic efficiency is a secondary goal for Sheila Bair and most of the other regulators and the members of Congress.

where would you put the limit to "economic efficiency"?

One Phrase: End of Quantitative Easing

Seems to have made the entire world quiver with fear.

I have no fear, for I will now begin to participate more fully in the newly trademarked Crush Your Creditor modern experience.

Next up, JPM- I got something special for Jamie D- an offer he can refuse that might just cost him some money;-}

Someday this war's gonna end...

The fact that the Chicago Tribune had to explain that Danny Davis is a Congressman in Chicago should give you an idea of how much time he dedicates to his constituents.

but why can't the Congress demand that people who get these extra 1.5 years of unemployment benefits do at least some community service???

the obvious answer is that the liabilities exceed the benefits ~

Burning down our government would be a community service these days.

Besides, community service takes jobs from working Americans.

Extra UE will help some folks. For most of us, it simply isn't enough money. Only problem is that there aren't any jobs. So, I and others are going back to school. This makes us ineligible for UE. I thought I would be able to work IT the rest of my life. I was wrong.

MrM wrote:

Did not quite work out yesterday, did it?

Did we burn down a government, and I missed it? I'm sure the Commentariat would've covered it if it had happened.

Tired of actually typing out the entire phrase our leaders have merely resorted to "Extend...

badger wrote:

people would recognize how white and middle class this recession is.

You mean Hispanics, Asians, and African-Americans are still employed?! Guess it is time we all headed to Houston,
lA, Oakland, and Detroit!

sheesh that was way back in the 80s...who remembers back that far

.
....Ahemmm...........(cough, cough)........it wasn't THAT far back - even for a past drug addled, booze wracked body such as the one I own, thank you......

yagij wrote:

Did we burn down a government, and I missed it?

The government (=the Administration) surely got burned yesterday

I cancelled the Tribune a few years ago. It went all Liberal, all the time. I heard they lost other readers too. Now they filed for bankrupcy.

Rob Dawg wrote:

entire phrase our leaders have merely resorted to "Extend...

Sounds like we need an icon...

I used to pay $3.00 for the Sun Trib at the store since I couldn't get a subscription way up north here. The paper just fell apart in Feb-ish.

Gold: This is a giant high level trap for the ignorant traders and newbies, those who are slow to act who just got in. I'm exiting the entirety of the 50% unsold position of the portion of gold I hold for trading purposes. 1085++ and I'm gone. That's about 9-10% in 2 months, unleveraged. When it cracks, I'll reposition. It's someone else's bag, now.

I yet see gold at $6000, but that's 4 yrs from now. And much higher gold on its way. Positional positions stay on. Short term trading, now flat.

As to what others do, I never allow anyone else's opinion not vetted and solid with years of public statements, influence me whatsoever.

Slumdog, I thought you were holding half for the ride on up. What made you change your mind?

MrM wrote:

The government (=the Administration) surely got burned yesterday

Link?

"I never allow anyone else's opinion not vetted and solid with years of public statements, influence me whatsoever."

Good point.

Ignore.

1 Question... Would you take this bet?

I'm lookin' to borrow money and place it all in gold, and then surrender the gold as collateral. I'll pay interest at 3% with an offset. I'll give the lender 25% of the rise in the market price offsetting the 3% simple interest. I assume all the risk. The amount to be borrowed is 7 figures. It's like a futures trade, but the physical is acquired. I don't trust GLD or the futures market to perform when the crunch is in. I can't determine when the crunch will be and it's a risk I won't accept. The Hunts' taught the lesson to everyone else. Take it, hold it, and screw off to everyone else.

What's the flaw besides the fact that risk is being taken?

As an aside, I've been trying to get the lender into gold for the past 4 years, unsuccessfully; so this is the carrot I'm dangling.

As I believe gold will go to 1600-1800 in 2010, I consider this risk to be worth the payoff. Entry will be after the pigs now at the trough have their ears clipped, which will occur, and I'll wait for that.

I believe that in my comments about TARP for banks too small to fail
I touched on this issue... I pointed to the pressure that was brought to bear
on Congress in the early 80s to change the rules that dealt with what an S&L
could have in its portfolio... remember, once they de-regulated passbook savings
rate that gave S&Ls a 50 basis point advantage they were effectively dead...
I went on to say that all small banks nationwide should use that playbook
since 'all politics is local' and they can leverage that in ways the big faceless
banks can not...

yagij wrote:

Sounds like we need an icon...

A boot and a can?

barfly, the breakaway gap is real, at around 1045. It's 10 bucks. That's large. 90% + of the time, it gets filled. Today's trading is what I call the "lure". It's so stable and attractive to get into now what seems like reasonably priced gold. I have seen that pattern over and over. Yes, sometimes, it breaks to the upside; most of the time, it tarries long enough to allow all who want on to get on. A drop of $50 is highly probable. I'll wait this one out. My entry was $990-995. The money at this point is God's money, not mine. If it happens, it belongs to the next person, not me. That's kewl. I don't lose on my trades. I either win or breakeven. I can't tolerate loss. I won't sacrifice profit because I want more. I see risk in the current market set up; so, I left.

Further, I foresaw this move and acted on it 2 months ago. So, as it comes to an end, and the probabilities in my mind shift, I release from what I thought would happen, take what I said I expected, 10%, and leave the rest to those who understand something I don't. I don't trust any advice but my own. Others may ratify it, but I don't follow anyone.

Slumdog - completely fascinating, my man. Please keep on posting, as you see fit. Between you and rich, it's a real education.

None of us here are big enough to influence the market, Duke.

There is one thought I don't follow, but which naws at me all the time, and that's what Sinclair said... assets in one country, owned by a corp in a 2nd country, and stock held in a 3rd country. He has been consistently concerned about nationalization of his golden asset. I've explored it. It's easy to do via Canada, to get a 2nd step away, and all this being totally legal, too. Illegal stuff is above my paygrade.

And, yes, the Govt changed the rules... imo totally illegally. That was another lesson. The Govt is self serving. It's happening now as they save the Primary Dealers, even though they're all insolvent and should be bankrupted. The Govt is dangerous to the common working man.

Imagine if we did not have the new accounting rules?

How many more banks would the FDIC be closing? that's really the question to ask.

The Govt is dangerous to the common working man.

so that's why they just extended the unemployment benefits. Not to take away from your larger thesis. I'm still a fan.

say about 9 years ago I noticed a dearth of Irish bartenders in NYC, if you can imagine that,
now I know why: A two parent ,two child family on social welfare are entitled to collect in excess of 37,000 euros tax free.
......
on a further note it's nice to be ahead of the curve for once, your local banks tend to be more active in
the community, sponsoring Little League and that sort of stuff... it's harder for the big banks to do this
for obvious reasons (there no Mitch and Murray breathing down the necks of the community banks)...
I would even go out on a limb here and say 1 dollar of campaign contribution locally is worth 5 on the state
or 10 on the national level...

"The debt situation is irrecoverable,.......I don't see any orderly way out of this. They will not be able to fund their deficit. There will be a fiscal shutdown, a pension haircut, and bank failures that will rock the world. It is criminally negligent that rating agencies are not blowing the whistle on this.........The Great Recession has eaten up 27% in tax revenues. Industrial output is down 19%, even after the summer rebound; exports are down 31%; the economy is 10% smaller today in "nominal" terms than a year ago - and nominal is what matters for debt."
.

......sounds pretty familiar...........black swan?
Japan Spirals into Bankruptcy?

Thx for the post, BSRanch. This is a wow.

Slumdog wrote:

Scum like NPR as well as every major news network ignored and discounted the strident and compelling ears of those who wanted to reconstitute the banks.

That's not my recollection of events from that time period.

I trust you've watched and listened to the Bill Moyers Journal segment that MrM linked above, as well as the segments that preceded and followed that one from April regarding the bankster's fraud.

The word is out there. The important question is how many are listening.

Calling everyone "scum" doesn't accomplish much of anything.

Calling everyone "scum" doesn't accomplish much of anything.

I have to agree here, Slumdog. Not exactly the non-partisan language I would expect from you.

Chicago Dude wrote:

The fact that the Chicago Tribune had to explain that Danny Davis is a Congressman in Chicago should give you an idea of how much time he dedicates to his constituents.

Why would the constituents care - in Chicago the aldermen are more powerful than congressmen & senators any day.

MrM, I realize Blackhalo asked for links, but MSM analysis of election results is questionable at best.

Governors don't have much influence on national policy, if any at all.

There were two Congressional races. NY swapped a Republican for a Democrat and CA swapped a conservative Democrat for a liberal Democrat.

That's what will count when the " health, energy and national security changes they promised " come up for votes.

volker, you got to get yourself that double-strength tinfoil, like those cheap turkey roasting pans. Works for me.

Volker, I think that the economy, the politics, and the entire state of the country will sometimes induce temporary insanity.

Now, get in there and keep commenting, it helps to vent the spleen about how helpless we are as the situation rapidly changes.

Someday this war's gonna end...

Black Star Ranch wrote:

I was appalled when locally a tile-man had to pay a $2K bribe to get a town job.....

I had to read this several times before I realized it wasn't worth the money. Prior to that, I was thinking, two large, I dunno, what's so bad about that? Given the proper level of talent. Then I 'saw' it was a town job, not what I was thinking.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

how helpless we are as the situation rapidly changes

jeepers, it feels good to be wanted

one step at a time with that change shit

don't make any unexpected fast moves

MrM wrote:

I believe the Administration has taken notice

I hope the Administration has taken notice.

Obama does have to understand he is not the anointed one

But I saw a

Optimistic at this point seems to be keeping our collective head above water. I'm losing optimism.
Head under water
And they tell me to breathe easy for a while
The breathing gets harder, even I know that
YouTube -

I realized my tinfoil went bad
When all the thoughts that I had
Started to seem
Like peaches and cream
And how government made me feel glad.

sorry, all...
here's a much better 'Slaves to Debt' vid mash-up where Bernanke's copter opens it and Geithner makes
an appearance, so does the Debt Monkey and it closes with O being chased by a plane ...
I should also say it go almost 6000 hits in about 10 days, very unusual for this kind of material!!
YouTube - Obama Calls Kanye West JACKASS & Spike Jonze Calls Obama Cocky & Xavier Bardem Agrees

Duke of Con Dao wrote:

very unusual

Duke of Con, hi. One day, and that day may never come, I may once again be certain of myself to the extent I had a craving need to tell others how absolutely fabulous whatever I do, is.

where will you sell it safely and locally if you need some 'spending' (devalued) cash?

and who would trade you anything truly valuable for mere gold?

volker the viking wrote:

Most logical way a big dog exercises dominion is on the big dog's terms. And he don't care if tyhe two of them together are 50% of world GDP, we gonna shrink the dollar to a new world parity and anyone don't like it can suck it.

I would agree with you EXCEPT as I've said here a thousand times... we are STILL importing WAY MORE than we export...its not like we are going to run a surplus anytime soon... They are in effect working for FREE... worthless paper they then have to recycle back via US treasury buys.

It blows my mind that 'we' are the 'bad guys' for allowing our currency to depreciate which results in our slaves actually getting 'paid'.

[PLONK - bangs head on table]

YouTube - Rollover 1981... world economic collapse

merchants of fear wrote:

If gold shots way up in a Crash

exactly, and when it came to resurrecting the system which displaces, the rulers will have the gold

the plebes will have silver

and the peons will use copper

and while we at it, barter will be a way of life

best be getting good at it

"Politicians Pressuring Regulators on Banks"

Holy frickin' shite! You can GO SLOWER than Shitthead BLiar and the FDIC! And I thought glaciation was slow.

I haven't met a rich man yet that made his fortune in gold. Granted I've only known half dozen people or so that have accumulated over a million in assets, but none of them made mention of it.

I think the glod pumping is predicated on there never being wealth created again. It's the end of the world as we know it for many.

mock,
I had a friend on the Left who tried to get me to listen to NPR for years and claimed it was very informative...so I tried it a few times and the news host sounded like he was on some kind of opiate he sounded so mellow and laid back plus at the time there was a story on about some insignificant consumer issue (don't remember what) about the time of the TARP bailout I think...do they do hard hitting stuff like investigating _______________ or ______________. Fill in the blank with numerous entities that have enabled this mess.

" like those cheap turkey roasting pans.

Ah, the tinfoil helmet upgrade... "

Barely an adequate emergency defense system my friend...although the turkey drippings oozing down the temples, does offer a quick snack, and a unique scent.

just caught the NAR tv spot

they say so many out of ten economists agree that home prices will go up in the next five years

crisis over

Oxtail wrote:

Good thing they don't have to think about the unfunded liabilities...

Nor does anyone - the 'funding' itself doesn't matter - it isn't the problem... its what people expect to buy & consume using that funding that will be the show stopper. That is if the resources aren't there how much money there is to 'pay for it' is meaningless - you can't eat the money.

merchants of fear wrote:

Isn't NPR and PBS public television funded by corporations through grants and donations?

as well as loyal listeners/viewers everywhere

And Ford Foundation!

As promised a report on Dark Pools, Flash Orders, High Frequency Trading and other Market Structure Issues

Senator Kaufman was a single panel member and talked about how he became interested in this after the SEC repealed the uptick rule. Among his comments he mentioned his concern that technology has overtaken the ability of the SEC to regulate the markets to some extent and believes that the repeal of he uptick rule had a lot to do with the Lehman and Bear Stearns failures. He also seemed to imply that the markets should exist such that long term investors can save money and have a golden retirement. He was followed by a people representing the SEC, the trader association, folks who are involved in market routing, NASDAQ person, and one guy who claimed to be unbiased and did seem a bit unbiased. Because of the audio it was hard for me to triangulate who was saying what. I'll take the items topic-based rather than time-based as the question/discussion was cut off somtimes by the time-limit.

Dark Pools
There was discussion on dark pools and their transparency and how much of the market they make (I think its grown from 1% to 10% over the past 5 years?). There was some general agreement that dark pools are used by institutions to somewhat hide large orders so that the market can't use that information. One of the benefits of the dark pool is that the parties to a trade are anonymous, I believe the SEC has a proposed rule to unmask the anonymity and identify to the tape which pool a trade came from. Dark pools are required to have their trades recorded on the tape, but they don't have to tell the identity of the traders. If this rule were to happen (sounded like some institutions were against), it might simply set people back to calling up a "specialist" to take place in these large orders (100,000 shares). I know very little about trading, but what troubled me about the discussion was that as far as pre-trade investing; a small-time trader has to put his order out there pre-trade (he could do a market order, I suppose). However, everyone seemed like it was okay for a large institution (mutual fund/pension fund) to hide this pre-trade information from coming to the market, thus hiding the amount of liquidity that is out there. It's the larger traders who will move the market more than the smaller traders... but understandable why they don't want to reveal themselves as in the process of selling/buying a large block of shares.

Additionally there does seem to appear to be a lack of transparency from the dark pools. One of the person routing trades mentioned that his concern was about what happens to the order when it goes into a dark pool or goes out. It sounded like they tried to get information on the routing of the order from the dark pool, but were blocked by the dark pools due to some "proprietary, legal, confidential" agreements or something. Not sure why he mentioned this... wouldn't you simply stop trading with a dark pool if they were not disclosing what happened to your trades?

Flash Orders
Didn't get a lot of discussion that I can remember. Someone in talking about them mentioned that flash orders were a way to get some transparency and information out of the dark pools, and by using a flash order it was a way to interrigate various dark pools and trading markets/

High Frequency Trading
Lots of agreement from the trader folk that high frequency traders are simply the new "market makers".. There was some concern from the SEC that high frequency trading could be abused to generate momentum for a position and may need some regulation.

Throughout the meeting it seemed like the SEC was preaching about a balance between liquidity and transparency and fairness, especially in regards to avoiding a two-tiered market. The traders and their advocates all seemed to love to talk about how much liquidity is in the market and how great it is; but didn't seem to give a lot of talk about the transparency and fairness aspects (understandable). The unbiased person seemed to indicate there could be room for more transparency in regards to the market.

One of the institutional traders said his job is to trade against the high frequency traders, and if he can tell that they have sniffed out one of his orders he'll cancel the order. When asked about "why not call the SEC?" or something he made a great comment about being suspicious of all the counterparties to his trades and he'd be on the phone with the SEC all day.

One of the Senators mentioned the arrest of the russian guy (forgot the name, wow thats out of the news fast?) accused of stealing GS high frequency trading code. His concern was that there is a potential national security issue (I'll touch more on this with sponsered access).

Co-Location
Co location was briefly touched upon. Sounded like some of the people were advocating co-location was okay, as long as everyone was allowed the oppurtunity to co-located on similar terms. One of the panel members downplayed it... saying the information is traveling at the speed of light and there's not much time difference between co-location and across the street.

(cont. later)

volker
not sure what you were trying to say about me but I thought that since the movie called The International took time to explain
what banking is all about on the international level whether it's a pure fantasy or not it will influence maybe a million people
or two people, the ones that saw it in theatres and the presumably greater video audience... the once scene I lifted to use in my vid will have more influence than anything CR does on his blog for the next two years. Bill is no match for Clive Owen.
Remember JFK by Stone? it had a tremendous impact on how that assassination is viewed today, not say by the intelligentsia but
by Joe6Pack and kids...

Bob Dobbs wrote:

MIght not make your fortune, buy might help you keep it.

About 5 years ago, I tried to convince a wealthy gentleman I know to buy gold, to take about $1 million cash out of various CDs and such and buy at $444. He didn't. He sat on his cash and his CRE and, while he certainly is very well off, he could have been better off.

(But then I'm not sure that even matters once one is set for life.)

yep that is true,i tell them no its the bankers, the big banks.the federal reserve bank,it the treasury. dont think it work, it doesnt make sense to them.it is hard to look down on someone you have taught to look up to.

Well, that explains why Central Pacific Bank Ticker: (CPF) with heavy losses even after getting TARP funds still is not on the troubled bank list.

Senator Inouye (HI, Dem) has a good portion of his personnel wealth attached to it.

CPB got TARP money after Inouye call - Pacific Business News (Honolulu):

merchants of fear wrote:

Isn't NPR and PBS public television funded by corporations through grants and donations?

To an embarrassingly larger extent lately. But main core of funding ~60% come from viewers/listeners.

Sponsored Access
The one issue that had consensus was sponsored access. This is firms or non-firms having direct access to the markets. When this occurs sometimes there are pre-trade mechanisms that are bypassed. It sounded like there was a concern a bad actor with sponsored access and some type of high frequency trading algorithm like Goldman's code could propose a systematic risk if it was in the wrong hands. This was obliquely mentioned... but in my mind it would be like a bad actor having sponsored access and moving the markets in a major way through trading... advertising the ability to sell things they didn't have and buy things with money that doesn't exist?

The one thing I wished the Senators had done is follow up on all of the issues that Kaufman brought up. Why not ask them, "did the uptick rule contribute to Lehman and Bear Stearns going down?", and the elephant in the room like "do you think the markets should be biased towards the long term investor?"

That's it...

Oxtail wrote:

I heard it on the radio on Sunday.

an unsolicited testimonial for radio that works

And Ford Foundation!

Ahh! The irony. Kind of shoots holes in your conspiracy theory, doesn't it? Maybe, just maybe, they aren't out to get you.
Then again, when I see something sponsored by the Goldman Sachs Foundation, maybe I'll reconsider.

sportsfan wrote:

I guess 4 out of 5 sounded too much like dentists.

Hey, were talking RE agents here. Math is not their strong suit. They are still struggling with negative numbers, reduction of fractions is still a bit outside the box for them.

Big Thanks YSLP!
for some time now I've wondered what 'dark pools' are, when I jump over to Zero Hedge they seem to get
talked about a lot...
... strange the panel blew off co-location as an issue seeing that moving near the speed of light is the great
equalizer??? I get off a trade at 3 milliseconds to your say 10 and I won't stomp all over you...
this topic was handled quite well be ZH 6 weeks ago

Blackhalo wrote:

Hey, were talking RE agents here. Math is not their strong suit.

I do hope you're old enough to remember the "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest" commercials.

Seriously, I don't think they wanted to use those numbers.

sportsfan wrote:

I do hope you're old enough to remember the "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest" commercials.

Sure am, but I would never pass up a chance to take a shot at RE agents or bankers.

Side note - I'm sure happy dryfly and mp signed off immediately "before" my two recent posts that are time stamped with each of theirs.

I might have taken it personally had they both done that immediately "after" my two posts.

Goodnight, gentlemen, hope you guys each have a good day tomorrow.

OT - CRE

I remain absolutely convinced that CRE in the so-called Inland Empire (basically, Riverside and San Bernardino Counties in California) is presently supine and comatose and the prognosis is grave.

This is the worst I have ever seen and it clearly is still on a downward trajectory. I honestly have no idea how it will recover in my lifetime. Perhaps it will, of course, but I can't say "how."

barfly
Goldman Sachs | The Goldman Sachs Foundation - Overview
hey got to be fair.google has more.

YLSP - its Congress. They are just damn slick at deflecting all the blame.

Yep, kiss the mothers, steal the babies candy, slap/tax the daddy silly.
This I think is a once in a Generation opportunity to follow the money and influence to reveal what our current political system is all about.
Might be interesting, should I stock up on pop-corn?

gabyjan wrote:

Goldman Sachs | The Goldman Sachs Foundation - Overview

The grant guidelines are telling.

ylsp
so its the rbcbo regime? works for me.

E Thomas St. - But I wouldn't deny that 50% are crap.

I'll buy in at 80%+, but I'm jaded.

blaclhalo
maybe it all are allowed to give. sort of suprised

sportsfan wrote:

The funny thing is most of them are just people trying to make a living.

Yeah and before the tech boom, IT workers were passionate, hardworking, folk, only to be drowned out in a sea of MBAs with an MCSE.

Barfly,
You figure that economic policy advisors and central banking administrators have advanced degrees in Economics...that they have been exposed to economic research literature until they wanted to puke...that they were exposed when they were students to the economic research and models of the day...and that as professionals, they have kept up with the research literature.
And there's a whole area of macroeconomic research that looks at as I've said over & over...currency crises, financial crises, speculative attacks, deflationary cycles, etc. there are conclusions in this research.
If certain policies are pursued like unsustainable govt. spending, high unemployment, and if there are structural imbalances to the economy...this weakness can end up being a target for speculators and (manufactured) EXPECTATIONS OF CURRENCY DEVALUATION AND IT SEEMS THAT THIS IS WHAT THE U.S. IS GOING THROUGH NOW...caps for occasional emphasis off...

We still are damnit! WAH!

Slumdog

NPR has a couple of commentators (commenters sp?) daniel schore being one

except for these you almost never hear one of their anchors or reports tell you the listener "what it is"

npr instead interviews a number of people we might consider to be experts and then conclusions are left up to the listener

if you gave me the name of the program you feel told you tarp had to pass or else (evening edition, this american life, all things considered etc)

i would go back over the archives and see if i can find it

edit

btw...without tarp the financial system and the economy probably would have crashed...im not so sure that would have been altogether a bad thing since, i think the economy will be destroyed by other means eventually anyway...just take longer

by the way..i wrote three letters to my elected representative AGAINST TARP and like you i believe that tarp was an absolute crime against working americans and our children

i published those letters here at CR and can give you the link if you want to go back and see for yourself

gabyjan wrote:

albrt which charlotte nc banks?

I hear that the HQ is moving to NYC, so they are moving up the food chain...

"The latest scuttlebutt making its way around BofA points to that individual potentially holding court in New York, not Charlotte."

Charlotte Business Journal: Is a (NY-based) Bank of America CEO pick imminent?

mock, I think the overwhelming consensus here was that TARP was a horrible idea. There were thousands of comments posted on the subject, some celebration and ultimately defeat.

The most striking thing about it to me (and only to me, I might add) is that I was quoting Nancy Reagan as my ending tag line. I think Inland Empire CRE is likely to rebound before that happens again.

sportsfan

yeah i lobbied heavy against tarp

and published my letters to one congressman and two us senators on these pages

im with ya...and agree with slumdog that tarp is grand theft country (my words but the same idea

MoF, if you think our government is trying to crash our economy by throwing the kitchen sink at it, well, I don't know what to say. That may certainly be the result, but I doubt very seriously that is the intention. Anyway, it's too late now. We'll just have to ride it out.

gabyjan, thanks for the link to the GSF. I had no idea. Shows how far out of the loop I am, I guess.

mock turtle wrote:

NPR has a couple of commentators (commenters sp?) daniel schore being one

Meh, as a long time NPR listener and donor, I kind of have to agree with Slumdog to a little bit of a slant. Way too many interviews of Fuld/NAR/ and not enough Taleb, Ritholtz, Roubini or Schiff. I can kind of forgive them a little bit as, I'm sure NPR/PBS noticed a severe drop in donations/sponsorship since TSHTF.

But calling them scum, seems a bit overboard compared to any other media outlet, other than the bloggers (who apparently could do the math).

hmm - trying to crash our economy... let's do a slight thought experiment here ... We're knowingly handing out money by the truckload to precisely those the public would later blame for causing the crisis in the first place, and silently talking over key industries to be government-run. Not to solve any problems or magically "heal" the economic engine of finance, but to create stress, apathy and dread in the citizenry... to the end of accepting even more governmental control, oversight and market intervention in the future.

It doesn't make sense at first, but we are thinking of it as a long-term strategy. What if it's not? You want to make FU money for yourself and leave everyone else high and dry. Survival of the fittest baby. Obligate a country to trillions in debt they'll never repay? Oh well, you're buying an island or moving to a moon colony. F the rest, I got mine!

... Hmmm. I'm not convinced but it was a fun exercise.

this just crack me up. We've come to a new orwellian phrase 'repayable loans'. As if the rest are un-repayable, er, gifts?

gm to cut 10K jobs

barfly,
If our economic advisors and administrators who are trained economists with advanced degrees have 'studied' and read the 'financial/currency collapse' studies I have cited and even more I haven't obviously, yes they should know the results of cause-and-effect in the sequence of events that lead to economic collapses IMHO.
Heck, some of the highly regarded economists who are advocating huge govt. spending & deficits have written the 'financial/currency crisis' studies and models.
It's simply baffling.

ehhh... a pox on the thought experiment...

It's simply baffling.

Whole hearted agreement from here. I have my own suspicions for how this might come to pass, but none of them are any credit to the economists in question.

volker the viking wrote:

barter will be a way of life

Yes it can and on a scale beyond what people can fathom. Barter is a serious threat to the status quo and the dollar credit based trick system. Watch for legislation aimed at it.

Barter is the matching of haves and wants. These things can be easily paired online, eliminating the dollar in the transaction. Eliminating the dollar excludes dollar based credit from that part of the economy.

Look at currency markets for an example of a highly evolved barter market. EUR/USD mean euros in dollars. No reason you can't have barter pairs analogous to currency pairs like toaster/microwave, apple/orange, corvette/kia... Barter pair values could be further extrapolated as with currency crosses.

All that is needed is a classified matching system that accounts for haves and wants. sort of like craigslist for barter with a kelly blue book type repository of arcane barter pair values so sellers can evaluate potential crosses and offers. Additionally an auction approach to the classifieds could have participants bid using their "haves:" 10 kia for a corvette, or two apples for an orange.

Off the shelf internet technology can match haves and wants.

barfly wrote:

I think they're backpeddling furiously

What strikes you as "backpeddling"?

What strikes you as "backpeddling"?

TJ, TARP and stimpac, and every program in between. The hands off approach has obviously failed us.

Hands off was what we had before TARP, if you'll recall.

How is post TARP not failure except in semantics alone?

barfly wrote:

Hands off was what we had before TARP, if you'll recall.

. . . and here I thought it was much more than that. It was a sign from the third base coach to steal.

It'll take the better part of a decade to clear the mess that caused.

How do you know God didn't magically prevent economic collapse? Prove God didn't save us.

(see where I'm going here with your specious reasoning)

:shakes head:

(see where I'm going here with your specious reasoning)

Don't forget the ever popular: How do you know where I'm getting my food from?

1 Currency
talk about tinfoil hat time!
I just checked my Youtube entries and all my star ratings across the board
are now 1/2 star!
....
the Yankees win! Great News!

Can't believe you guys are not biting on barter. This is potentially the most disruptive form of economic organization. This is the natural evolution of the current craigslist economy.

Where are the gold beetles? Gold would be king in a barter system. Also, what hell you think people will be forced to do in a currency collapse if not barter.

Managing the complexity of a functioning Haves and Wants marketplace is probably within the competency of tens of thousands of open source programmers. This is inevitable.

The closing of FBOP was unfortunate and shows how capable our government really is.

1. Our dysfunctional government. Does Geithner even know what's going on?
   Treasury, federal bank regulators trip over each other in FBOP failure
2. A great community bank that gave back to the community. How many banks REALLY lend to low income households? FBOP did.
   FBOP deserved better treatment
3. Yes, banks do make profits. Yes FBOP made profits in 2007 and 2008. But how many banks give away a third of their profits ($55 million) in donations to local charities and organizations?
   Park National Got Robbed
4. A $2.5 billion loss for tax-payers must be better than waiting for a $750 million infusion from outside investors. Let's keep pumping money into Citibank and GMAC.
   http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-tue-fbop-nov03,0,4074780.story
5. Our grand government tells banks to invest in Fannie and Freddie so they can make more loans for the rest of the public. When they take over Fannie and Freddie, main street banks lose and wall street banks win. Too big to fail yet again.

1 Currency wrote:
“The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest,” Goldman’s Griffiths said Oct. 20...
.....
that;s a hell of a quote, almost on par with Boesky's Greed is Good from the Predators ball. Probably too late in the shooting
schedule to include it in Wall Street II. Pity!

From The Money Game(1967)
JP Morgan's preacher, Bishop Lawrence,"Godliness is in league with riches; it is only to the moral man that wealth comes. Material prosperity makes the nation sweeter, more joyous, more unselfish, more Christlike"

Man, I always had the fantasy of taking 30k and heading for South America. Shack up with some chick to learn the local language. Live the simple / hard life for a few years.

Was that what you did DCD? Cambodia sounds like a neat place to bail to... or Indonesia. Never been definitely on my list.

Consider this post a non commercial break from the Duke and Yogi Show that usually comes on this time of night.

When cash runs out possessions are liquidated. Unemployment and imploding credit depletes cash. Foreclosures and associated homelessness create people who have possessions and no where to put them.Those without cash will seek to trade what they have for what they need. People will definitely attempt barter every time when they have no currency. What are the other choices?

Sign of the times: I placed an ad for my old truck and only got calls from people looking to trade.

Barter is austerity.It is a natural form of human interaction. Much more so than faith based digital credits.

djb - c'mon, your shilling will set off the thread bs meter quicker than a Jas bomb.

Tip: it is politic to wait at least an hour after registering before launching the first

C

Hey, C-

What time zone are you in?

Only really ever liked "Arizona", which I loved.

Otis: my currency is as close to barter as I'll let my feeble old mother use, and yours will thank me, too.

Jonathan,
actually, the big marriage was supposed to happen on Nov 27th, 2007 but I bailed on that date 8 weeks before
cause my old man would not attend and by extension mom... if I really wanted the marriage should've been there the
first time! the do-over was a pie in the face... later, her family politics intruded and I got what I deserved!
....
Cage had that one move he did in Face Off and repeated over and over again, the slow burn into a volcanic reaction
...

I've worked with a few Asian women. Really special people, but a different culture. They'll clean up in the end most likely.

American Exceptionalism, meet People of WalMart...
:ambien: (hint to kcoop)

"Yield curve up to 2.61. Some people think that indicates something."
....
sooner or later that thing has to stop moving up, no? with the Treasury doing 81 bil next week
maybe their is some resistance...

Anyone ever read any Jonathan Lethem? Talked about "Chronic City" on npr today. Sounded great.

yogi - what duration on the yield curve has risen to 2.61?? Country? Ain't US 2, 5, or 7 as far as bloomie can tell me.

C

thought he was talking about the 10 yr (big jump)
I'll be back on later... after I hold a pistol to my head and finish
what I think is one of the wackiest stories about Central park (actually
it was finished in 2003 and I hope this is a more svelte flowing version of that one,
sharper and less verbose (right now it comes in at almost 16,000 words) duke

what the hell am i doing here

nothing matters because everything can matter
markets will rally for 2 more weeks, eg oil tease $100
then crash, because that's the way things have always been
that's the wisdom of dance

You tip the waitress by asking for her waitress code number, unless the restaurant's billing program is also plugged into the currency.

Pot dealers would take it to the extent the community wants a separate pool for anonymous (pirate) transactions. It's open-source, so there's no impediment. In my version every bar-codable transaction would be recorded and traceable by any user, but some anonymity can be rebuilt, such as for literature/porn/medicine/poker. No tax dodge, though.

At first, I would be afraid the bad PR would kill development: "new currency enables dope sales". Pot may be legal in more places soon though.

otis isn't here, he is there. he is there because he is not here.

"I had NO IDEA the officer was really a prostitute."

---VH1's Behind the Music: Homer Simpson

It's a free country, and whatnot.

but he's not here. So he may not be in a free country. I'm not sure he was ever here.

And I don't understand what he's saying when he's here.

Better out there. I can understand that.

I've been in that place.

I'd rather be here.

C

But maybe somewhen else.

Rogoff, Johnson Say G-20 May Fail to Curb Global Imbalances - Bloomberg.com

C

Rep. Tom Price (R., Ga.) told [FDIC Chairwoman] Ms. Bair he wasn't "convinced that the FDIC isn't contributing to the awful problems that we're having" in his state, where 20 banks have failed in 2009. The banks "dot every 'i' and they cross every 't' and then the knock comes on the door on Friday afternoon," he told her.

Hands off, gubmint oppressors! Let zombie banks be zombie banks. They just want to be left to moan, wander about in slow circles, and await mouthfuls of soft, chewy bailout money. Geez, is that so hard to understand?

Apologies if this has been posted previously. I'm GOBSMACKED! I wonder if CR got an invitation to DC? The fact that they are talking to financial bloggers speaks VOLUMES about the current situation.

interesting adventures
Wednesday, November 04, 2009
A Sit Down With Senior Treasury Officials - Part I
I received a mysterious email last week from the Treasury, inviting me to a discussion about the Administration's policies and reactions to the economic crisis. Although the timing sucked for me - it was the Monday following the weekend of my move out of NYC - it was too rare an opportunity to pass up.

Arriving at the Treasury, I quickly bumped into AccruedInterest along with John Jansen from Across the Curve. Michael Panzner soon joined us, before we were escorted to the proper conference room, where we found Yves Smith from Naked Capitalism, Steve Waldman of Interfluidity, Tyler Cowen from Marginal Revolution, and David Merkel of Aleph Blog fame. In all, there were 8 "bloggers" and a handful of senior Treasury officials, who shall remain nameless. Henceforth, all Treasury views will be attributed to "STO" - Senior Treasury Officials.

........

http://fridayinvegas.blogspot.com/2009/11/sit-down-with-senior-treasury-officials.html

For Juvenal.

404 - Not Found - sacbee.com

,rad HG,

Building more dams in which to hold water, would be akin to fixing the financial situation by building more banks.

Just wondered if you had seen the article.

HomeGnome wrote:

For Juvenal.
California lawmakers pass historic water package - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

The state house punted. The charade depends upon an $11b bond issue. Yeah right. JD may disagree (he is paid to have an opinion) but California does not have a water infrastructure problem. California has a developer subsidy and political power problem. As such you cannot expect a political solution. Small correction; CA does have some infrastructure upkeep issues but this bill doesn't address those. At that this "historic" "final solution" is neither. IMO it is political patronage to build new storage for a system that cen never reasonably be expected to reach "full" ever again. Nothing but a beard to conceal pork.

As Jesse so eloquently put it:

"How Can You Tell When Gold Is In a Bubble?"

When the junior miners start showing these kinds of returns, you might be in a bubble.

We're nowhere near that point yet.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_H2DePAZe2gA/SvI3wEDsASI/AAAAAAAAKP8/dzbAL7IGDO4/s400/juniorminers.jpg

,rad HG,

Thanks for the article, i'd seen it and have been following events in Sacramento.

It's hard to ascertain which is more screwed up in Big Gov here, the fiscal or water policy?

This is really a make or break year as far as the drought is concerned. We've got ourselves in a bit of a sticky wicket. You can print manna imaginary all you want, it's just pressing letters and numbers on a keyboard not unlike this one, bingo! financial crisis averted. (for now...)

But, unfortunately, I can't see how a water stimulus would work, as you can't conjure it up out of thin air, can you?

If I was really dependent upon the California Delta as my water source, i'd want to read this book by Marc Reisner, the author of "Cadillac Desert".

"A Dangerous Place: California's Unsettling Fate"

TBTF became TBTGTF(tobigtogettheflu)
Have a great day all and play nice with your fellow humans...they might be armed.
Goldman Sachs Received H1N1 Vaccine Before Several Hospitals