CIT Board Approves Bankruptcy Filing
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Sun, 11/01/2009 - 1:01pm (279 comments)
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Recent Recommendations
The CIT hits the fan.
Icahn gets paid, the Squid gets paid, the taxpayers ... Well, two out of three ain't bad.
pigged: Any opinions as to when CD rates will start to increase?
Quelle surprise.
The taxpayers lose.
Will we hold the idiots with our purse strings accountable at all?
I know $2.3 billion in a year isn't much from the
, but it would buy a bunch of 
's
When the cd rates improve, I betcha it will be stunning.
Truly it would have been better if
s HAD dropped money everywhere.
It would have been better if in late 07, all mtg debtors who were behind would have been brought current and all mtg debtors had their debt reduced by say, 5k.
Almost anything would have been better.
Citizen Scotto wrote:
2013: but that's just my opinion; it could be later.
Yeah, no surprise. This was one of those BKs that has been obvious for some time. I was a little puzzled as to why the stock price was still trading around $1.00, but I guess some people like to throw away money.
The taxpayer investment was lost some time ago. It sounds like a key issue will be if the C&D is lifted on the CIT bank in Utah - so they can raise more capital.
best to all
I must sadly report that I did not have a BFS Poll posted for this...
No, the stock price more often than not bounces off <$1 even after BK. Short covering (remember all the puts to be cashed) and the possibility of the occasional survival of some equity.
ll: Truly it would have been better if Its
HAD dropped money everywhere.
Have the government buy and forgive 5% of all mortgage debt. That way you are not only rewarding the foolish.
lawyerliz wrote:
And it's a dumbass gift to the bond holders from the taxpayers. The Gov't could have just demanded most senior debt position.
Nice job.
I've covered shorts right before BK before (just to make it easy), but I usually paid a few pennies - not a buck. This common should be wiped out completely ...
best wishes
JP wrote:
Senior debt doesn't count to Tier one capital, so it wouldn't help lending (not that it did much good anyway.)
5% of all mortgages paid off would still leave at least 30% of householders underwater.
I agree with Liz, until there are cramdowns or large principal adjustments by lenders RE will not recover.
Wait, why are the taxpayers going to lose everything? Why did Treasury agree to be subordinate to other debt outstanding at the time?
Wonder how many businesses will not be able to make payroll in Nov - Dec with CIT in BK?
Or have the cash to buy inventory or materials or the utility bills.
JP wrote:
Two classes of debtholders, it seems.
GM gets crammed down to 18 cents on the dollar in a whirlwind court case.
Failed IB debt paid off at 100 cents. The other financials get FDIC backing.
I agree that this common will eventually go to zero. Can't find the link but Bloomberg reported a study showing most large BK show large dead cat bounce in the period just after the announcement.
RueTheDay wrote:
It's not their money. The question should be: Hu's money is it?
Rajesh wrote:
But the reasoning is to prevent liquidation in the event of default. I'm sure somebody could have twisted hard on the other bondholders to forego their right-to-force-default when the money was injected.
I didn't mean it would be good, just that it would have been
better.
And if you buy that the Treasury is concerned with "lending" rather than bank profits and bonuses...why don't they just lend it themselves? Not that they seem too concerned with an honest accounting of capital, "Tier 1" super-duper senior AAA or whatever nonsense they're selling.
JP wrote:
Remember this was revision ??(I've lost count of the revisions) of the TARP; the money was supposed to only go to healthy banks: like Citibank, CIT, and GMAC.
Wait, why are the taxpayers going to lose everything?
that's what I want to know. As long as the company remains alive, we should be able to get paid back, no matter how long it takes. I question the WSJ's premise, but am unable to link the article.
OT-might be old news here...did we give chrysler billions to buy out the workforce?
Chrysler confirms plans to offer buyouts - MarketWatch
Chrysler Group LLC confirmed Saturday that it will offer buyout packages to about 23,000 hourly workers as the automaker pushes ahead with its cost cutting measures amid dropping demand.
"As a continuation of its earlier special buyout program and as a condition of the loan agreement with the U.S. Treasury, Chrysler has extended its special program offering to those newly eligible U.S. employees," the company said in a statement.
Chrysler said that employees have until Nov. 13 to accept the deal, and that "special
programs" are also being offered at locations identified as negatively impacted during the bankruptcy. The dates for those programs vary.
What is the "Squid?"
barfly wrote:
A bond is a promise; equity is hope.
Aha. Demanding senior rights would tip off the general public that the bank is in trouble.
Someone should have had the forethought that any injection to some systemic threat automatically incurs most-senior status. No matter what.
But some of that works against kick-the-can-down-the road, which seems to be a popular practice these days.
Well, I better go work out, cuz kick-the-can-down-the road doesn't work for my health...
Highly OT.
I have a basic question on the Savings Rate. There is information on what the current and historical savings rate is for different countries.
But I have not been able to find any work that provides a theoretical framework for what a Household savings rate should be.
Any pointers?
If you take a buyout can you file for EU? I don't think you can as the buy out is concidered wages for a time period. They may be not be able to file at all as it is concidered voluntary loss, like quiting. So these people will not show up in the EU numbers. Maybe U6.
Ok, a modest suggestion which shall be ignored:
Take the Case Shiller index, doctor it up a bit to make it as
good as you can, and then use it to determine haircuts. I think
people can stand being 10% underwater. So in Miami, give all
the banks 35-36% haircuts, places less bubbly, less, adjust payments
accordingly. See what happens. People like me who owe nothing on
the house, howsabout I get a check to be used for a new car?
Or a home improvement? Or my (measley) credit card balance paid
down?
We CAN get paid back if we force accountability on the Treasury. Either they get out the claws or we do.
Anyone know where the CIT CDS chips may fall? That market was supposed to have been made more transparent after LEH.
[Bwaahhhahhhhahhhaaa]
The point is that money means nothing. The USG will just print more.
Savers always lose. In history, those who hold the UST's get smashed. Reagan's time in office cut the buying power of the USD by 50%.
It's the need for a drive towards full employment that dictates this game on a national level. China is beggaring its neighbors driving its own full employment as the biggest squid of them all.
I like the idea of chopping the Gordion Knot, but the consequences for all not holding commodities, PM's and RE will be instant insolvency. As I believe the world's financial stakeholders can act irrationally and turn on a dime, I see no choice but to spread risk. Entering RE at the end of the next 6 months is what I've decided to do. Flat, low, and unwanted... an excellent market entry point. (eg gold in the high 200's, low 300's, oil in the teens, etc, etc.)
does this make it a Double Digit Doozy?
Liz
That makes as much sense as anything else. And would keep people in houses and in debt. it would move cars again. Also a very large tax credit for buying an REO may be helpful.
I just caught a glimpse of CR's Site Meter...
45, 598,060 and counting!
What is the "Squid?"
Goldman Sachs
josap wrote:
esp if the credit was tied to fix up/remodel needs established at closing by a qualified inspector type
think of the graft and corruption!
And since the banks are NOT using the money to loan out anyway, we
make some electronic transfers to them so they can pretend to
be solvent, since that seems to make some people happy. Just
kill a few more electrons.
" What is the "Squid?"
Goldman Sachs "
So the golden slacks have ten legs.
G iant S quid.
dfwmix wrote:
There is no "right amount" for the savings rate; just as their is no "right speed" on the highway. Everything depends on conditions, especially demographics. A theory states that young people tend to borrow more and people near retirement tend to save more and of course retired people live off their savings (or public savings in the case of Social Security.) By this theory, the Japanese should be saving their heads off and people in Kenya should be borrowing like there is no tomorrow. (one out of two is not bad.)
volker the viking wrote:
Yep, get those flippers busy again. HomeDepot here we come.
The money would be calculated, and for those in foreclosure,
owners (who were still there, some have vanished) would be
brought current and the rest adjusted, voila' fewer REOs.
Force the banks to finance their own damn REOs if not sold
within a certain time.
How many of the Dow Jones Industrials from 25 years ago have gone bankrupt? That tells you all you need to know--the American day in the sun is over--kaput. Many books will be written explaining what happened--most of it will be bullshit. Americans went offshore to make goods and profits--the government turned a blind eye--and immigrants went from the hardest workers to the enemy. Could it have been prevented--only with the help and sacrifice of GS--so, no. How far down will we go--I'm guessing we will be Britain for another 30 years and then we will be broken up by region. Canada, with its mineral wealth, will annex the NE and NW. That's my prediction--willing to listen and learn from those more pessimistic than me.
Outsourcing is seen as the way
For all who would rather not pay
Living wages to those
Whom the company knows
Are unable to force them to stay ~
Heckuva job, Timmay.
I'm not saying this is good (except for the part about financing there
own REOs), merely better than continuing to transfer power to useless
power hunger wastrels.
An anecdote from the last time around with the arms in the 80s.
A vice president of Financial Federal admitted to me that he didn't
understand how arms worked. I had just broken my brain reading
the note form about 5 times and offered to explain. He refused,
apparently was to lazy to understand his own product.
I name the S & L because it's looong gone, and the VP is doubtless
dead or senile now.
What happens to all the McMansions as the US lowers its' standard of living?
Maybe they can be turned into rooming houses.
The media needs to jump all over this.
TARP injection of preferred stock = $2.3 billion.
GS loan to CIT (the one for which an "accord" was just reached to preserve the loan through the BK process) = $2.13 billion.
This is a naked transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to GS. Again.
CR, et al,
Please check out the latest Contrary Investor monthly commentary. Killer chart porn that undercuts any idea of a V-shaped recovery. IOW, this time it really is different.
Dear Prudence, Won't You Come Out To Play?
"I name the S & L because it's looong gone, and the VP is doubtless
dead or senile now. "
You're kinder than I would have been.
I find it odd we have a federal minimum wage, but allow US companies to hire overseas workers for far less. Morality with locality...
josap wrote:
The U.S. is going to lower its expectations more than the actual standard of living. A lot of what consumers will give up; wasn't all that much benefit to them. We will have less spending; but it will be more focused on things we actually need; as opposed to things the advertising industry is telling us we need.
Mel wrote:
this has been anticipated since at least 30 years or maybe 40 years ago
When you add up Geithner's failure in bailing out AIG CDS holders 100% on the dollar, and Geithner's failure in pouring tens of billions of taxpayer money down the rathole called Citigroup (documented in today's NY Times business section) and Geithner's failure in wasting taxpayer money on CIT and others, you have to believe Geithner's goal is to systematically transfer public funds into private financial pockets. What other conclusion can you draw?
What is the difference between Paulson and Geithner, except that Obama was stupid and naive enough to believe in Geithner and apparently it continues.
volker the viking wrote:
Try 200+ years; this is what the British and French expected after we signed the peace treaty ending the Revolutionary War. America was just a temporary aberration from the natural order of things.
I'll call Caroline Baloney, again. Barofsky interested? He seems weak. At least Grayson and Sherman can put on a show.
Down with Pelosi, TARP apologist non-pareil.
That is a big steaming pile of dog CIT.
Rich,
Based on what I have seen, I would just conclude that Geithner is a moron. He might be corrupt, but he just doesn't seem that smart to me.
I read about half of that TJ, thanks for posting.
liz,
Did you check out those first two charts? Not good, not good.
What did we the people get for our $2.3 billion investment, besides a prolonged debt rattle?
We have a winner. Ding, ding ding.
No those charts are not good. Necessary perhaps, but not good.
My ad sez lisa has turned the tables on debt collectors,
and we should find out how.
Rajesh: maybe so, but in a more recent permutation there is this:
A study in North American Union. - Free Online Library
from the link: "Mr. Rockefeller was for 15 years (1970-85) the chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations, the principal organization pushing the NAU. The earlier mentioned document Building a North American Community was written by CFR task-force director Robert Pastor and is the uncontested blueprint for merging the United States, Canada, and Mexico into one political entity called North America."
Studies are 'out there' showing roughly 9 regional entities with a weak hemispheric order. I'm too dumb to find them, but I remember reading them in some federal government magazine in 1978.
Yeah, we should have subsidized the poker players at
Vegas.
Geithner's job is to always be too stupid to see through the Ponzi. I think he is aware of his role, which makes him corrupt as well. I've so far only ever advocated indictment of Paulson.
Geithner should just resign or be fired.
more:
Meet Robert Pastor: Father of the North American Union
I see it more as a geo-political inevitability.
bummer. for $2.3 billion we could've paid for a week or two of our two ongoing wars (and maybe a little of the war on drugs, too!)
or we could've put 50% down on another Nimitz class air carrier. Good sensible spending.
12th Percentile wrote:
more like two and a half days
12th Percentile wrote:
Gonna need those things pretty soon to enforce our "strong dollar policy."
......ME TOO! But what if I don't want some POS car, or home toy or improvement, or any bills - can I buy glod and stick it under my Sealey?
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:
I believe you are correct. It is one of the reasons I doubt this whole "the US will got the way of Argentina" argument. Argentina isn't in the business of occupying countries with huge oil fields.
I believe at the time TARP was announced we could have paid off nearly all revolving credit card debt as well.
Not that we should have, of course.
12th Percentile wrote:
Yeah, well, the Soviet Union occupied all kinds of valuable property and that didn't exactly do wonders for the Ruble.
I was just reading about Tim Geithner, and came across the name of Arthur C. Dudley, who assumed Geithner's position at the NY Fed last Jan 28th. He came from, you guessed it, GS.
If Western civilization survives in anything like its present form after all this, I hope someone commits to the history books that the Swedish Solution was what we really should've done. Maybe the next empire won't make the same mistake.
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:
start writing
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:
Too many blogger are writing as if the banks are the problem; that if we just fix the banks, the rest of us can go on over-consuming and under-saving and worrying whether Britney's comeback will be successful. The banks are just a symptom; they are the canary in the coal mine; the first to feel the pain which we will all get to share in time. Unfortunately, pain is what drives behavior change and the pain will increase until people get the message.
Rajesh wrote:
genau, that and fear
TJ and The Bear wrote:
this certainly is not my area of expertise, beyond writing a paper on the Soviet occupation Afghanistan in high school, but I don't believe the Soviet/Russian comparison is a good one to the current US. Yeah they have the nukes and yes they got their asses kicked in Afghanistan just like we will, but other than that and the ridiculous amount of natural resources both have, I don't think the USSR compares to the USA. The USA has 735 military bases around the world. How many did the USSR have?
fun fact: A friend of mine did two tours in Afghanistan as a helicopter pilot with the Marines. He said they would land in places and the locals thought they were the Russians. He also said that they were taught to always keep one last bullet for yourself because the local militants would do things like skin you alive.
Too many blogger are writing as if the banks are the problem;
they're victims of their own greed, who just happen to be dragging us down with them.
12th Percentile wrote:
just like the cavalry in the 19th century
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda wrote:
I tend to think it will. Who or what is going to take it over? And I truly doubt that problems will ever get to the point where Soviet-style dictatorial socialism is the only thing that works. That only appeals to people who've been seriously impoverished all their lives -- because it's at least better than what they had. But that's not the west.
And remember to separate the U.S. from the empire based in the U.S. That empire will fall, and should. The U.S. need not follow it, and probably will not. When what you call the sheeple wake up -- and they will, when things get bad enough -- that empire will die. What replaces it is up for question, and isn't necessarily a happy thing at first. The Scandinavians and their ilk serve a purpose to us just by existing -- their way of life is subversive to many of the lies we've been told.
What is the "squid"?
It was Matt Taibi who coined the term "Vampire Squid" in his excellent muckraking article for Rolling Stone last summer:
The Great American Bubble Machine : Rolling Stone
Unfortunately, though there's a lot of truth in the article, Taibi uses vulgar language and is more than a little histrionic at times, so many dismissed the article. Definitely worth a read if you haven't checked it out yet.
If those small business just stop whining and go under already, we wouldnt need to worry about getting them financing and this would become a nothingburger. Geezzz...
Bob Dobbs wrote:
When the Swedish banks go bankrupt again, will the Swedes turn to the American Solution?
bkold3000 wrote:
he does. "bailout" "Goldman Sachs" "market manipulation" etc
WHAT? They are NO victim. They are the ones who relaxed requirements, lending procedures, documentation, etc., and ended up with bad mortgages - afterwhich people started saying "Eff It" and started walking.....THAT'S what they didn't bargain for.............Life's a bitch if you're a Banker and you're wrong. Unless you are "bosom buds" with the idiots and crooks in DC, and then you get bailed out..........like some incestuous Uncle Mommy
Curious to see what Asia thinks of this.
Curios to see what Asia thinks of this.
Not really any way to know... since they haven't had a chance to react to Friday's -250 either.
GS -- Giant Squid.
Later, the Rolling Stone "Vampire Squid" sounded cooler.
Black Star Ranch wrote:
we have one of those in our family
BSR, that's what I was trying to say. They brought their troubles upon themselves, and by extension, us. We're on the same page here.
Vulgarians in expensive clothes and trappings deserve our disdain, which includes language of a nature bordering on vulgar.
from NYT the first realized loss in the government’s rescue of the financial system.
and you can count on many more to come so American taxpayers may reach this stage yet
Did you here TImmay today on Meet the Press talk about what great returns we're gettig as taxpayers on the bailout. Heck, lets do another so we can get even MORE great returns. What a complete jackarse....
12th,
My point was that the Soviets could only dictate exchange rates in those areas they controlled, e.g., Warsaw pact countries. Outside that, not so much.
Unless you're advocating US' dictating policy to Europe and Asia -- not gonna happen -- the dollar is still toast.
There isn't any other conclusion - Geithner is simply a tool for the
Why get mad when you can get even?
Use the home buyer tax credit to be a "move down" buyer. Sell the old house as a short sale or ?
Pay off any other debt.
Earn enough to live and feed the sealy.
Stop feeding the
TJ and The Bear wrote:
ummmm, toast
do we have a toast icon?
The sons of bitches won't be dismissing vulgar and histrionic language when they're being tossed into 60 horsepower wood chippers.
The People have the technology now.
.....it seems the BIG reaction and problem now is, many big and small businesses upon hearing all the BS around the table, are second-guessing their hand. They remember the idiot to their right went all in with a pair of threes and won a big pot when everyone including the house contributed BIG TIME on the turn, then blew town........they think maybe the bank will do the same against their 8-high....the 'big stack" ain't as stupid as he lets on......
what great returns we're gettig as taxpayers
Oh yeah, they're claiming to have created and/or saved a million jobs. What hogwash. Oh, and taken at face value those likely low wage jobs cost the taxpayer something between a quarter and a third of a million dollars each. Such a deal.
GDD9000 wrote:
Did anybody from "the press" have the balls, intelligence, and information to question him. Or did they just let is pass without comment?
In a small, high-end berg in CA, the BofA loan officer on Thursday described the level of activity as "dead". They're stunned that the volume of biz at the teller window as well as their lending activity is ghost-town slow.
This ain't to be ignored.
Rajesh wrote:
Well the US did breakup into two countries for about five years. Only a massive invasion by the North reunited the US by conquest ("Civil" war my a$$). Texas was also separate for awhile. I see the point in regional government but not how to get there from here without violence.
Please excuse my Southern bias.
Jim
NC Jim wrote:
well, it could well be the only way to avoid another civil (is anything civil about it) war
TJ and The Bear wrote:
Actually, in today's local paper - I live in a small CaLi central valley limousine liberal town, the paper said - 250 jobs were created at the University with the stimulus money. This included researchers, teachers, student aids, etc... of course, the article does say what happens AFTER the stimulus money is gone and the bankrupt state as to pick of the tax next year.
It's appalling that Geithner can say those things with a straight face. I mean, if this was a great return for taxpayers, we should set up a system so that we can have another financial crisis, so that when it is in recovery phase, the banks can again make huge profits...and while they arent, we can saddle the taxpayers with all the losses. But we can offset those losses with great returns on the investments that save the banks so that they can make big profits again in the future. I mean, the argument is so patently ridiculous that it is painful that he is trotting it out on national TV. Does he somehow not understand that these returns only exist because of the losses that were already inflicted? I feel like I am in some kind of alternate universe when Timmay talks. And David Gregory doesnt even point out how silly it is to point to those returns as some kind of success.
And when he says "we're not going to let the banks go back to the way they were" Uhhhh....moment please. What exactly has been put in place to prevent this? And what does he think is happening right now? And does he think that somehow the government version of subprime is better than the private market's now, only because they can unload the securities on the Fed???
I swear, if I had woken up two years ago to see where we are today, I would have considered drastic action. Which makes me wonder, why I am not considering it now?
I've got an good in with a sentiment analysis / social media market intelligence player and pissed enough at Goldman Sucks to see if I can get them to start tracking sentiment on the
then put the results somewhere on Open Government Initiative | The White House
I'm sure that will go over like lead balloon
GDD9000 wrote:
expect it
GDD9000 wrote:
I'm sure that was just the
talking.
GDD9000 wrote:
I guess I don't see what you - or any other peasant - would have done two years ago. You, me, and there rest of the peasants should have solved this problem 30 years ago. This is just the end-game. The nobility own the government. They won. Period. Nothing to do now except enjoy the post-game-show rap-up report, and adjust to the new reality and invest accordingly.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
I'd like to see total university employment YoY. Doubtful those numbers would hold up to any scrutiny.
TJ and The Bear wrote:
Yeah. I'm sure. It's a shell game like anything else. But, if enough "experts" repeat something enough the peasant dumbasses will believe.
These geniuses seem to have forgotten that it's small business that makes this country work. Small business provides the employment.
Right now, small business isn't getting any financing or the support it needs to move forward.
They've got a vicious cycle going and they'd better do something about it pronto.
mp wrote:
Send in the SBA to take CITs place.
SBA!? Christ, you may as well send out a call for the Girl Scouts.
They've got a vicious cycle going and they'd better do something about it pronto.
They're getting set to pay out billions in bonuses. What more do you want TPTB to do?
mp, Rob,
If you haven't already, check out that Contrary Investor piece I linked above.
mp wrote:
Small business doing what? There's been 30+ years of off-shoring. It's gone. You can't count the small business that existed PURELY on the home-equity-loan money - like, bounce town & boats. Merica spent 30+ years trashing the concept of "making things". Most small business were "services", funding by the bubble.
spoos just opened. off 4 points.
NotReal, if you've got less than 500 employees, you're small business. Some would say 1000, others even more.
There is always money available, it just might not be at terms you like.
Cheap money is gone forever, and the government seems to forget that when that happens, business contracts big time.
Now we go back to the old ways of doing business, cash on the barrel head and all that.
A lot of misery in going back to a cash society, especially for the charge the latte crowd.
Put some good deals up on craigslist last night, and no bites so far.
Money is still getting tighter here.
Arizona continues to collapse.
Someday this war's gonna end...
mp wrote:
Fine, i'm not arguing small business don't exist. I'm say how MUCH of small business itself ONLY exists because of the credit-bubble.
The USA has 735 military bases around the world. How many did the USSR have?
It also had more than it could afford. 735 gushing wounds bleeding money for no direct return on investment are not an asset to a bankrupt state.
He also said that they were taught to always keep one last bullet for yourself because the local militants would do things like skin you alive.
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
The bailout isn't going quite as planned.
Taxpayers are left pounding sand.
The bankers do fear
That crowds will appear
With torches and pitchforks in hand ~
TJ and The Bear wrote:
how many of those countries does the US have a military base in? Is it easier to dictate policy when you have a large military presence. Or so I hear.
Citizen AllenM wrote:
enjoy the war because you'll hate the peace
volker out
barfly wrote:
Should perhaps, but I'll see it when I believe it. REAL Merican peasants are embarrassed to complain. Reminds them of things they would rather not admit.
How's that working out in Afghanistan?
Not really, I will be happy when this country finally gets some peace.
The rest of the world might not like it, because when we stop acting on the international stage, the cockroaches will come out to play.
This country disengaging to deal with the domestic crisis will be the sign that the gloves are off, and America will not be propping up any pseudo democracy, or favored tin pot dictator.
The peace will be chaotic here, sure, but in the long run much more productive than the current disaster laden course.
Someday this war's gonna end...
.
Everyone knows we're nothing but a Paper Tiger anymore.
Citizen AllenM (profile) wrote on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 7:01 pm
Money is still getting tighter here.
Arizona continues to collapse.
Ebay the granite countertops and tell the old lady she's welcome to add herself to the lot if she likes them so much.
mp wrote:
Yup, I was only half-serious.
Daily Kos: UPDATED- Bill Moyers Calls for Draft if Obama Escalates in Afghanistan
Moyers is the best !
km4 wrote:
He's despised by the Political Type 1's and 3's.
12th Percentile wrote:
Yeah, let's tell our European allies the dollar is worth so many Euros because we say so. They'll promptly tell us to "GET OUT".
Oh, and how many bases do we have in the BRIC countries???
Nope, the granite countertops are going to be reused for her grave marker.
Then the war will be over, at least from my perspective- back to chores for a while- I can hardly wait to see Asia.
Someday this war's gonna end...
What I feared would happen is now becoming.
re: the war
Nobody is talking about it, but an insurrection is in progress amongst the generals
Citizen AllenM wrote:
Overall, I agree. But, a significant part of the US's success over the last 60 years has been its ability to export its male thugs and thugishness. That can't be underestimated. When our thugs are no longer exported, they'll be here. Not sure the innocent Merican peasants will be able to keep what's left of their democracy intact with the world's best thugs at home.
mp wrote:
mad max?
So we take all our dollars out of the ponzi scam. Who will shut the discount window, the TALF, the FDIC guarantees,...? Why should Main Street pay its debts with labor if Wall Street eats all the pie without doing any?
The banks are the problem.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
tough to disagree, except only the operatives within those entities are senseless as to what they are doing and the impact they are having on the outcome
No, the government's failure to address the economic problems. Don't forget, the entire system seized last fall. They're busy protecting institutions, and one institution in particular--banking.
They've yet to admit that there are bigger problems out there.
I'm hearing others say that, if things don't improve over the next ninety days, they're shutting down. A lot of people are telling me that. Although there are pockets of activity, particularly on the east coast, midwest and central US small business is being slammed. There's no work and there's no financing.
RockyR wrote:
Can't be mad-max. There's nothing happening NOW. We'll end up like Italy, or Greece, or Mexico, or any other corrupt south-American country. The rich will live fine, the peasants with the most duplicity will live fine.
THAT is what you are seeing in the end-game situation right now. And that is what is bothers all the "pure" people on sites like this. Namely: America is - and has been for 50+ years, a country of duplicity and self-delusion. And the duplicity is a requirement to succeed in a corrupt society.
Welcome to the new REAL Merica.
When the history of the last 18 months is written the chapter will be entitled: Wasted Opportunities.
Isn't the big deal about CIT the small biz funding? Will it continue? Doubtful. Especially to retail biz who are not going to have a good Christmas?
Rob Dawg wrote:
What Opportunities? What can happen in a society with its government owned by the people causing the problem?
mp wrote:
Yeah, the next leg down. 90 days puts us just past Christmas, which is just about right.
TJ and The Bear wrote:
March lows redux?
mp wrote:
Confined to one industry or more?
Overconsumption is also a problem, but deadbeat consumers are more likely to have gotten a haircut than even BK welfare queen Dick Fuld.
I guess we will hear more about "Factoring."
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
the only thing that exists is opportunity
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
Yeah, I bet he's really hurting on his Montana ranch.
volker the viking wrote:
It'll bounce off that briefly before heading significantly lower.
Well, let's put this into perspective. People like me, who have no debt, are already hibernating, waiting to see what's going to happen.
The guys who are in debt, particularly those who are highly leveraged, are scrambling as fast as they can because they've got to service the debt.
However, they're about ready to pull the pin. They don't see the point if there isn't going to be a pickup in business, and SOON.
Don't you mean "Bending Over?" In this environment, you might just as well go visit the local godfather.
volker the viking wrote:
The ONLY opportunities are those available within the framework of society and government. The government is owned - completely owned - by the insiders looting the government. This is at ALL levels of government; feds, state, & local.
The society is now applied-socialism. The ONLY opportunities are running scams. That's where we've been for the last 15 (or so) years. When people understand the dis-honestly is the name of the game, there's NO turning back.
Stiglitz Says U.S. Is Paying for Failure to Nationalize Banks - Bloomberg.com
mp,
I imagine, from reading a little bit about it, that it is a lot like a family turning to the Cash Store to make the next mortgage payment. They just gnaw off what little meat is left before letting you fall through the cracks.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
you could not be more wrong
When people understand the dis-honestly is the name of the game, there's NO turning back.
No. I for one won't play that game.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
The clueless chastising the spineless. Now that's entertainment.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
And perhaps FORCING average peasants into a system run by "smart amoral scumbags" might also be called immoral. But, no, we all loved allowing the peasants to "participate" in the magic of the "free market" and invest "their" 401k's. Sure, EVERYBODY is smart enough to "invest". EVERYBODY is above average in Merica.
nova wrote:
Nor will I.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
that much seems apparent to me.
mp I am hearing the same thing from the small business owners I know. After Christmas they decide if they stay open or shut up the shop. From the tone of voice, they are saying they will shut down. They are saying it out loud to get used to the idea, very hard for most of them to close the doors.
Business owners get no UE, don't see any job prospects and feel really badly for the employees they have left. They have put their all into it for many years and see no way to continue.
mp wrote:
if we get any significant correction in equities, there is no chance we'll see any pick-up in the next 90 days.
Well, I won't play the game that "nationalization" or a "public option" is necessarily evil.
Nova, years ago, I was in a similar situation to what these guys are in now.
Once you start dealing with a factor in an environment like this, it is very difficult to get caught up again. Your cash flow becomes a never-ending circle jerk.
In my case, it got to the point where I was looking at the 45 in my desk drawer, but nixed the idea when I was told that they had stopped paying my insurance months before. There was no point.
What I'm trying to get across to you guys is that there are a lot of business people out there in a real world of hurt and no one is doing ANYTHING to help them.
The pols spend their time writing laws,
And buried within them are flaws
Designed to enrich
The writers of which
Increase their wealth without pause ~
Mike in Long Island wrote:
It's your choice. But, the "smart amoral scumbags" that run "your" country could care less what you do. Too bad about your kids tho.
RockyR wrote:
Stocks and Bonds matter to Wall Street. On Main Street, paychecks are what matter and there ain't been enough of them lately.
volker the viking wrote:
i'm not so sure he is. i've noticed a significant downturn in the integrity of my business dealings with other people. the pace of that downturn has only accelerated in the last year.
in fact, i was actually chastised at my last company because i thought telling someone i knew how to do something i didn't know how to do was lying. my employer wanted me to lie. it ultimately led to my demise with that outfit.
mp wrote:
Who WOULD "help" them? The "smart amoral scumbags" that own the government who are helping the nobility loot the government right now? I heard they were busy looting. Maybe they'll get to your small businesses just before they jump-ship.
"Nobody is talking about it, but an insurrection is in progress amongst the generals"
As in expert in writing sensationalist proclamations, I have to award today's first place ribbon to this statement. Congratulations.
++++
"The rich will live fine, the peasants with the most duplicity will live fine."
Looking at Mexico and the insurrection they face with the fortress mentality their wealthy have to live in daily leads me to doubt this will be the end result in the USA. I hazard a guess that the constant living in fear from the threats of kidnapping or murder make their lives miserable. Of course that is hidden in drug/alcohol abuse, frequent vacations to safe havens, and exorbitant spending to mask the guilt of their station. You can't hide from the damage done to humanity when you live in the middle of it, deadening the senses is a path pursued by the very rich and the very poor. Wealth does not buy happiness.
Americans have not been raised to accept their lot in life and to gladly take what is offered. The erosion of the American myth will be mired in conflict and a return to religion and Constitutionalism. People look backwards for solutions, not forward. My WAG for the day. Good day.
Sucks to be a small business that owes CIT a pile of $$$.. Now you owe a ruthless SOB who is trying to recover every nickel he can for the bondholders.
Might want to get a new cell phone # tomorrow morning on the way to open up your shop.
I see national health care being pushed through as a distraction and as a chance to tweak the numbers. Rest assured the phrase "small business relief" will get more airplay than a payola heavy pop song.
We had lunch today. The waitress threw me off. At first I thought she was speeding. Instead she was new, and desperate to please. She spilled our drinks all over me. She called "crepes" creeps. She was, white, 6 months pregnant, maybe 21, missing a tooth, and scared. I told the her not to worry about it and when the manager came over not to do anything mean to her. She is not a sheeple, or a redneck. She is who and why big government exists.
Rajesh wrote:
sorry, dude. psychology matters for the 80-90% people who still have paychecks. the dow wears a 7 or 8-handle again and you'll see many of the wallets that are open now snap shut.
mp wrote:
You know, mp, we try to analyze the implications here in a fairly detached manner, but every once in a while you have to confront the real world face of all this and it's truly heart-breaking.
Rob Dawg wrote:
It's a way to keep a 20% "structural" UE from leading to riots. If the peasants have food, health-care, and sport, why would they care.
mp wrote:
everyone should ask some difficult questions
mp,
Small biz is the real guts of a country. I think so at least. They are locals selling to locals. They really have to go you know.
Rajesh wrote:
and the debt market dwarfs equities
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
i think you have to give them housing, too. that's easy enough. cancel all the debt obligations, print up some dawlers to pay off the bankers, and be done with it.
mp wrote:
Almost all the govt support is going into supporting still overinflated housing prices, to bail out existing banks and homeowning baby boomers.
Externalized Costs wrote:
so you say
Both debt and equities go back to pensions, which go back to middle America.
The 401K's went to 201K's and have since bounced to 301K's; when they finally plunge to 101K's (and the PBGC goes officially on the government leech list) then you can bet the psychological effects will be widespread.
*Almost all the govt support is going into supporting still overinflated housing prices, to bail out existing banks and leveraged homeowning baby boomers.
*
Save a few pension funds too
Well, I've faced a few difficult situations in my life, but that was the worst one by far. Fortunately for me, the fact that they hadn't paid the insurance forced me to look into the abyss. I found what I was looking for.
nova wrote:
Walmart and Costco are selling to locals. Small retail is dead in the US. Has been for years. That's how we wanted it, remember?
If you want to see '50's style small retail, go to socialist europe. There is SO much wrong here that could have been addressed for the last 50 years, but people are all of a sudden noticing small business is gone?! What a joke.
Josap et al
The small business owners of which you speak; can they be characterized as being in a particular age group, e.g. close enough to retirement that shutting down is akin to retiring?
Or are they people who still have to make a financial life for themselves?
RockyR wrote:
Yeah, who cares. This is the end-game. ALL this jobs stuff had to be addressed 30 years go. Geee. What ARE the average people going to do? Gee, how are we going to keep small business in operations.
I know, the world is flat. Let's export all the average jobs. We're ALL above average in Merica!
nova wrote:
Well, I count them as baby boomers - most of their unfunded obligations are owed to that generation.
You can't generalize. However, virtually all are over 35.
FWIW, the futures are digging themselves out of a deep hole and are almost
The Lindbergh kidnapping of 1932 was turned into a "poltical" sensation. But it was really a "socio-economic" sensation.
Allowing GS access to the discount window when they pay record bonuses after TARP is dishonest. Big banks are not private entities competing for gains and risking losses. Name one GS/JPM banker who has said allowing LEH to fail was the right thing to do. LEH was supposed to be a competitor.
I found what I was looking for.
rebar and concrete!
picosec wrote:
The top 5% are doing fine. I don't even know why are worried about these loser "main street" peasants. GET A JOB YOU LAZY BUMS. I WORK FOR A LIVING, I DON'T GET WELFARE.
picosec wrote:
it's early and the markets are thinly traded
the action will happen in the hour before the NY open
The GS thread was interesting...a kind of PR consensus...about the squid...
An organizational chart though might have Fed>Treasury>GS/JPM or GS/JPM>Treasury>Fed or Treasury>Fed>GS/JPM or something like that instead of just squid=GS...maybe squid=Fed+Treasury+GS/JPM...
Most small business owners I know are mid 45 to 55, a few older. They can down size their lives and be ok, they can't retire though. Some of them have tried to hang on too long, using savings to stay open, make payroll etc. Lots of really small businesses are almost families, very long term employees, someone makes a home made cake for birthdays etc.
Bingo and IMO is inevitable...then we'll finally see
with a stakes thru the 
We were driving down Route 123 in the biz district of a small but not average town today. I looked at each business and tried to figure how many jobs that were not within a couple dollars of minum wage they provided. Not a lot.
Housing prices are finally starting to crack here...
Rebar, concrete and the ability to be a stone cold son of a bitch.
we all should understand. we are breaking new ground here.
historical examples don't mean much.
the squid runs the world. how are you going to adjust to that reality.
Needs some work...Fed<>Treasury<>GS/JPM<>taxpayers = squid
nova wrote:
More problems from ignoring the AVERAGE Merican. Average wages are falling for (what) 20 years? That's not a problem, right? Why, it doesn't matter because in Merica all the people that MATTER are ABOVE average.
GET A JOB YOU LAZY LOSERS!!! I WORK FOR A LIVING, I DON'T LIVE ON WELFARE AND COMPLAIN!
12th Percentile wrote:
generally speaking, badly
NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 7:13 pm
Overall, I agree. But, a significant part of the US's success over the last 60 years has been its ability to export its male thugs and thugishness. That can't be underestimated.
It's not the soldiers you have to worry about. They are few in number and they generally expect to have a life after the service. It is in the bloated, entitled police forces that they have sewn the dragon's teeth. No real life skills, expectation of a career and double dipping to follow, expectations of social and economic entitlement. Well familiar with the law. They are where your bandits, your private armies and the death squads will come from.
12th Percentile wrote:
Having been to Argentina, I have a pretty good idea.
It is in the bloated, entitled police forces that they have sewn the dragon's teeth. No real life skills, expectation of a career and double dipping to follow, expectations of social and economic entitlement.
Yeah. They, their fellow travelers, and a few socipaths.
12th Percentile wrote:
They run the world in peacetime. When they take a sizable position in Xe (previously known as Blackwater) then it's time to really worry.
Whatever happened to that GS employee released on bond for stealing a GS computer code which allowed massive trading...for example 46,000,000 trades on Sept. 15, 2008...
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
I'm more worried about the CIA/blackwater/NSA like scumbags. The people we've sent around the world for 50 years to murder and torture the enemies of "our way of life".
In other news, the Republican in NY's 23rd district dropped out and endorsed the Democrat over the 3rd party candidate. Someone mentioned this a few days ago, but the R's and D's are like the European aristocracy of the 18th century: they are more loyal to their bloodlines than to the nations they ruled over. Likewise, our political class are united against us. Look at the family trees of prominent members of the MSM and political parties. Incestious doesn't begin to cover it.
nova:
I think you paint cops with too broad a brush. I've known a few in my life; as in any other profession, there are good and bad ones. In my opinion, the ones to worry about are the federal law enforcement types. They tend to drink the most Kool-Aid.
What happens if 'cooling the mark out' doesn't work?
The squid runs Merica, not the world, quite yet - Hu has his own squid and I'm sure he wants it to win.
The squid IS, however, the ONLY possible end-game of a society that doesn't regulate (or even admit exist) the "smartest amoral scumbags". What ELSE did the NO Regulation people expect would happen?
mp,
If CIT and the other big small biz credit co. are gone...
CIT probably has not been making loans for awhile. Not many sources are available.
So is that one of the reasons rail and truck traffic is so low? They just can not afford to restock?
I thought Merican didn't hardly do any werk at his Zombie
bank??
Nuke,
The idea is that the cops represent a threat to TPTB, not the common folk.
Yeah when the looting and shooting start I'll just call John Galt and his volunteer neighborhood patrol. I'm sure they'll respect my 4th Amendment rights.
Whatever happened to that GS employee released on bond for stealing a GS computer code which allowed massive trading...for example 46,000,000 trades on Sept. 15, 2008...
he's been promoted to VP of sales ~
lawyerliz wrote:
I EARNED THAT. GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY (medicare like) BENEFITS. I EARNED THAT FREE LUNCH. UNLIKE THE UNEMPLOYED LOSERS!!!
(Edit: I just LOVE duplicity. Without duplicity you can't be a REAL scumbag. I work on my duplicity skills constantly).
Who would re-stock in this environment? There's no point!
You're going to keep your inventory as low as possible.
When employees work for one organization and then move to another and then to another and then back & forth, in and out, maybe they are just working for one organization...
nuke,
All I know are feds and DC-MPD. DC-MPD thanks to "The bitch set me up" Mayor for Life Barry, have had some problems.
She did, it turns out, set him up.
Concerning inventories, I should point out again that Walmart is my bellweather retailer.
Even Walmart is cutting back--way back--on inventory and merchandise selection.
I've been noticing that for about six months now.
How do I know? Every few weeks I walk through the local Walmart and make notes.
TJ:
If we ever see a Mad Max scenario, I think the deputies will side with the commoners, as will the Guardsmen and the grunts. The generals will stay neutral. The federales (FBI, DEA, etc) will support TPTB till the end. I recently met an FBI agent from the Albany field office. She was in the counter-terrorism unit. I asked her (jokingly) which town Al Queda was targeting: Schenectady or Saratoga. She was not amused. These types tend to take themselves way to seriously.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
I'm not sure. Isn't that just written on a piece of paper?
There must be at least at a minimum some inter-organizational co-operation going on...which is standard in the business world, is it not?
Yes of course but the GS
has these people Bilderberg Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on their team
NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 7:58 pm
I'm more worried about the CIA/blackwater/NSA like scumbags
You really need to worry about the police forces that have grown to the size of small armies and that are armed and trained like small armies, because those dudes are really expensive to keep in standing order, and they don't have overseas contacts to help them jump to new outfits and follow the guap.
There is a long walk between the kind of security forces America can afford and the kind it has, and the space between those points is the devil's playground.
None of the little sidebar ads Facebook or Hoodcoodanode show me tell me Obama wants me to go back to school and I could become a merc in as little as 6 weeks to get a starting salary as high as 50k. How many kids are graduating college with LEO degrees every semester? Jailing and surveilling your fellow man is America's last growth middle class profession. What is their future in a bankrupt state?
nova wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. Some of the commentators here obviously have no idea what it is like to have limited education, limited ability, and facing impossible circumstances.
Nuke wrote:
Yeah, just like they did in the union riots of the 19th & 20th centuries. What planet you living on? Peasants love to kill other peasants. They'll always side with an authority figure (edit:) and turn on each other.
The 2009 meeting participants in Greece included none other than tool for
U.S. Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner
Sure, but when the shit hits the fan, no one knows your name.
mhdoc wrote:
Gasp. You mean there are BELOW average people in Merica too? Like, No way, dude! We outsourced ALL those jobs, didn't we get rid of the people too?
Please let it be Schenectady. Oh please. Or Binghamton.
How about Hackensack?
Superman: You don't even care where that other missile is headed, do you?
Lex Luthor: Of course I do. I know exactly where it's headed. Hackensack, New Jersey.
Miss Teschmacher: Lex, my mother lives in Hackensack.
[Luthor checks his watch and shakes his head]
km4,
Bilderberg is only an elite annual conference for _________, various big wheels and is used to create 'conspiracy theory' mystification, the way history.com tries to frame conspiracy theories and make them look idiotic, most of which(conspiracy theories) probably created by individuals or groups trying to debunk or discredit more legitimate 'deception theories....
Amidst the gathering gloom,
The folks here talk about doom
And how to prepare
A squirrel or a hare
While defending a subterranean tomb ~
Well, you have to wonder why McCrystal came out in public like he did, since it's not his personal style.
You have to believe the generals are getting worried about Obama's inability to make military decisions.
Have a nice evening.
Ken--need to change to standard time, we're off by an hour.
mp wrote:
You too mp - as nice an evening as is possible these days.
Nuke (profile) wrote on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 8:08 pm
If we ever see a Mad Max scenario, I think the deputies will side with the commoners.
Mississippi Sovereignty Commission formed (March)
In response to the Brown school desegregation ruling, the Mississippi legislature creates the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission (MSC) to "Preserve segregation of the races in the state." The word "sovereignty" is used because white politicians in Mississippi are elected on "states-rights" platforms which assert that the Federal government has no power to interfere in the peculiar institutions of the "southern way of life." Other southern states follow Mississippi's lead and establish similar commissions and agencies.
The legislature instructs the MSC to "Do and perform any and all acts and things deemed necessary and proper to..." defy and resist any effort by the Supreme Court and Federal government to limit segregation, to disrupt and destroy the Civil Rights Movement, and to prevent Mississippi Blacks from voting. Until it is disbanded 17 years later in 1973, the state-funded MSC acts as the state's secret political police, working hand in glove with the White Citizens Council, Ku Klux Klan, and state and local police forces to carry out its racist mandate and promote the political agenda of the far-right.
barfly wrote:
Not me. I'm assuming we'll turn into a Mexican/South American style government. But, I'll be dead before anything bad happens. I'm just try to "invest" with an eye on the scumbags. That's all any of us can do. Try to come out in the top 10%. The rest of the population will be cannonfodder for the future history.
Being an atheist, I don't care. As long as I die before I live through it.
You have to believe the generals are getting worried about Obama's inability to make military decisions.
It isn't "inability." It is his dissonance and it is exactly the same as his problem with the economy.
'Stan: "How can we save face, stabilize the nation and withdraw quickly?"
Economy: "How can we maintain faith, cure unemployment and preserve the banking system?"
rich wrote:
I always thought the Vice President or State Department made these decisions. Did something change?
In this environment, you might just as well go visit the local godfather.
Hahaha so they would be "FACTORING" in the vig, right? Only in a certain light a little more honestly or open about it than CIT eh?
Rob Dawg wrote:
I thought he was just doing what the squid said to do. (Edit:) the squid DOES own his party's politicians.
Anyone here who suggests any group of generals should act independently of the President, no matter how incompetent or decisive they believe him to be, is advocating treason.
rich et all
you really think obama has an issue with decision making? Do you guys understand who runs this country? Do you really think that dimwit frat boy was the one who decided to start these two wars?
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
NO! Just protecting the constitution from evil-doers. Sometimes you have to break a few rules to still HAVE a constitutionally based perfect government.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
no, you're just wrong
1 currency now -yogi (profile) wrote on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 8:25 pm
Anyone here who suggests any group of generals should act independently of the President, no matter how incompetent or decisive they believe him to be, is advocating treason.
Gross insubordination, actually. Potentially insurrection. Treason is set to a very high bar in America, don't lower yourself to the level of the Bushite Scum and point your finger and cry "traitor" at every miscreant.
It's weird but taxpayers are one of the arms of the squid...
volker the viking wrote:
I know. Actually, it's JUST the state department.
1 currency now -yogi wrote:
true, and of course this is not being advocated, just suspected
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
are you related to Tail Gunner Joe?
volker the viking wrote:
Jeezz, I didn't say it was RIGHT, just reality. The squid gets to manage the nation's loots. The state department gets to manage the nation's wars. Been that way for some time now.
Barfly you are on a roll.
Everybody else needs to go get drunk or something.
This is too much
even for me.
Ahhhh,
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
so did Joe
I don't care to be apologizing for some war criminal or living in a permanent al Qaeda target area (I lived a mile from the World Trade Center) so I'll stick with treason.
I didn't say that generals advocating a different policy or refusing to execute an illegal order would be treason, just acting independently of a legal Presidential command.
volker the viking wrote:
People have been complaining about the "squid" (corporate control of the government) and the start department running wars for the benefit of the wealthy for some time now. They are usually called kooks by MSM.
1 currency now -yogi (profile) wrote on Sun, 11/1/2009 - 8:35 pm
I didn't say that generals advocating a different policy or refusing to execute an illegal order would be treason, just acting independently of a legal Presidential command.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
12th Percentile wrote:
Does that also apply to the US ?
Jim
after reading this thread...
you guys are scaring the shit outta me
yes things are very bad
this means people have to get to work...work the system...hard damn it
stop all the talk about effin ptichforks and torches...and run for political office
im filing for the 9th congressional district in washington state
and i expect 435 of the users and lurkers to do the same
i dont care what your position is on green house gases or abortion damn it
thats not the issue here, you know what has to be done
replace the house of representatives...and in so doing
drive a stake in the heart of the system that is bailing out the bankstas...period...nothing else matters