...and ve vant to drink that blood!

And I confused Waco with Ruby Ridge. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Waco involved more people, but again, why the overwhelming
firepower? And my comments on Reno stand.

Happy Halloween!!!

Good luck at finding good renters here in Phoenix.

The wage base here is shot- our only hope is the boomers showing up from wisconsin, like the duffer that just cut me off this morning.

Someday this war's gonna end...

Ah.. so the houses are being bought by the next run of foreclosure candidates... sigh the cycle repeats........
~splat

energyecon wrote:

Well, THIS should end well...

It's the natgas market all over again.

What was a deflationary period could very well turn into a deflationary spiral if we keep borrowing forward demand.

our only hope is the boomers showing up from wisconsin

So Mesa & Apache junction will start filling up again
~splat

Nah, they are all coming to Florida.

REBear re. Pets.com

CR - a few months back, there were several stories that foreign investors, mainly from China but also from South America, we buying up U.S. housing in Las Vegas and Miami as investments. Any data supporting this?

Liz, one of the problems here is that houses still are not that cheap. If they were, I would be buying, but they still barely make it without taxes and insurance.

Phoenix has a large problem in rising taxes, and falling wages.

Reading your comments leads me to believe that Miami has reached bottom for sfr- but your condo market has yet to find bottom, and commercial is yet to realize their magnificent losses!
Someday this war's gonna end...

Happy Halloween!

Mrs.B has been "manufacturing" little bees from yellow and black pipe cleaners. She's dressing up as a gigantic bee. I get her little bees pasted to my farmer's outfit. And M-i-l is going as a beekeeper.

Oh yeah, the "Do". It's Henri David's Halloween Extravaganza. 3000+ drag ball. (We're comped) HD bills himself here in Philly as "The King of the Queens."

There's bound to be at least a couple of nekkid body-painted bits of female eyecandy to make the otherwise long slow through the night bearable. (What a horrible pun - )

Not quite bottom--another 5-10% to go, but close enough so if you
want to own it's ok. As to the rest, AllenM, I totally agree. CRE wasn't
quite as overbuilt, but that's not saying much.

Absentee buyers are great for a community's real estate prices.

Then, they either rent to transient tenants or leave the premises vacant.

AllenM,
Having fun with the budget stuff? I think I saw an article this week about rumors of massive AZ layoffs...

If you are unemployed, you can rent one of the rooms for $400.00
and only have to come up with some hoa fees insurance leaving
a total of $350 for housing. Unemployment will pay that. Also, if
you are in Miami, you are prolly making at least that much under the
table. Also, of the $250 P & I, about 50 is payment of principal.

This helps. The "first time buyers" purchase a home from the "move back with parents buyers" and that helps things somehow.

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

to those not deserving what they got

back to "whats wrong with Kansas" and Obama's famous quote of clinging to guns and god. What if there was a legitimate populist political party, what instead of deriding it people realized that public financing of elections was in their interest, what if "socialist" or "liberal" were not terms of abuse. I am not sure how people there are who are "not deserving". In India the poor vote in greater numbers than they do in US- I have often believed that if these folks bothered to register (forget about voting) we would get more sensible policies.

I've always thought the govt should allow research that create synthetic drugs that give you all of the good effects of drugs without the bad side effects.

YLSP wrote:

The older people I talk to say "Drugs are a lot worse than smoking...". We should legalize meth as well? How about coke?

You can't keep dumbasses from hurting themselves (with drugs or ballots). It's pointless to outlaw drugs. If people want coke, give it to them in a controlled environment.

lawyerliz wrote:

if you are in Miami, you are prolly making at least that much under the table

I shared a condo with a 40-y-o Moroccan man, I couldn't believe how much he was making from odd jobs, ebay sales and pizza delivery. He was clearing $70K / year but paying taxes only on the pizza delivery salary (20K+ or so). His life was chaotic, though, constantly responding to ad hoc phone calls and deals.

You can keep dumbasses from hurting themselves (with drugs or ballots). It's pointless to outlaw drugs. If people want coke, give it to them in a controlled environment.

And look how well Law enforcement efforts have worked so far ??! Popular drugs are cheaper and more available than ever before and Mexico is turning into Nacrocracy, if it's not there already. The complete prohibition approach of the last 80 years simply hasn't worked by any stretch of the imagination. Although it has built some awesome villas in Columbia, Mexico and Honduras.
~splat

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

She's a depression generation person. To her, the less she spends the happier she is.

There may not be much inheritance going forward but thats just my overall impression. My grandmother raised me and put the holy fear of Gawd in me about how really bad things can and do happen. I'm grateful to her everyday. And like a some of people of my generation, my parents twittered any inheritance that I might of had, totally away and it wasn't chump change either.

FHA buyers are coming in with ZERO CASH and taking kickbacks @ close to make deals happen. It's worse than 2005, since now the mark is the USG.

To her, the less she spends the happier she is.

Would it change your attitude if it read: The less she wastes, the happier she is?

Or to put it another way: Why should we assume that spending more should make her happier?

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

the masses will need placating because TV/internet just isn't getting it anymore, is it?

You never know. If people have a roof over their head, food in their belly and American Idol it might keep them from rioting.

Substitute World of Warcraft for men under the age of 35.

Jobless Recovery
Absentee Buyers
Easy Financing
Low Down Payment

We all know how this is going to end.

crazyv wrote:

and increase in longevity.

Won't be an increase in longevity.
Russian experience suggests we'll see a significant decline in longevity.
Haven't come across Japanese stats but I suspect they show the same.

This puzzles me. Anyone else want to volunteer the fact that they don't know their mother's birthday?

She would never admit to her age
~splat

Behavioral conditioning+cultural reinforcement is a helluva drug...

Well then, that settles it.

Let's declare the "War on Behavioral conditioning+cultural reinforcement"

More downviews from depression generation people

Oct. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Wilbur L. Ross Jr. (71), said today the U.S. is in the beginning of a “huge crash in commercial real estate.”
“All of the components of real estate value are going in the wrong direction simultaneously,” said Ross, one of nine money managers participating in a government program to remove toxic assets from bank balance sheets. “Occupancy rates are going down. Rent rates are going down and the capitalization rate -- the return that investors are demanding to buy a property -- are going up.”
U.S. commercial property sales are forecast to fall to the lowest in almost two decades as the industry endures its worst slump since the savings and loan crisis of the early 1990s, according to property research firm Real Capital Analytics Inc. The Moody’s/REAL Commercial Property Price Indices already have fallen almost 41 percent since October 2007, Moody’s Investors Service said Oct. 19.
Billionaire George Soros, speaking today at a lecture organized by the Central European University in Budapest, said a “bloodletting” may be coming for leveraged buyouts and commercial real estate.

Oct. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E. Stiglitz said the U.S. recession is “nowhere near” an end and the economy’s third-quarter growth rate of 3.5 percent, the first expansion in more than a year, won’t carry into 2010.
While this week’s figures on gross domestic product are “very good,” the numbers would be “miserable” without stimulus measures enacted by the Obama administration, Stiglitz said today at a forum in Shanghai. He urged the U.S. and other countries not to pull back on efforts to shore up economies.
“When we look at if workers can get jobs, if they can work full time, if businesses are able to sell goods they produce, in those terms, we are nowhere near the end of recession” in the U.S., said Stiglitz, 66, the former chief economist at the World Bank. The U.S. job market is still “in very bad shape.”

There has never been a better time to buy your first house, especially if you intend it to be an investment not your home.

cr writes: "We are far from a healthy market ..."

Still the master of euphemism of understatement.

My mother gives her age as 39, so I guess the number for mother's age on my birth certificate is clearly in error.

Nanoo-Nanoo wrote:

There are a huge boatload of boomers who were counting on home equity to fund retirement.

They may not have started out that way - I think many expected their home equity to be their children's inheritance, but they have outlived their retirement funds and are now forced to live off their home equity. I know at least three relatives in their mid 80's that have had to resort to reverse mortgages to fund gaps in their retirement, and now their equity has been hit, too. Not as bad here in the midwest as in FL or the southwest, but still it has them scared.

But she always concludes by saying that she doesn't want to spend the money. It makes me sad.

Oh, I agree there's a line between parsimony and being frugal. Being afraid to spend is a little different than not wanting to spend.

Thats the sad part, people are frightened because they realize they may really need that money for other things that are more pressing...like paying the power bill, buying their heart medication and food. Some are forced now to choose between those. Its why I get angry about a lot of this stuff.

With the current lifespans, counting on inheritance is strange,...as my friend said to his parents, "I'll be at least sixty by the time you go; I think I should be able to make it on my own by then."

Absolutely not rumors.

I was directly involved in preparing one agency's cuts (a critical agency).

Essentially state government will start to collapse without immediate infusion of cash.

That means a tax increase pronto.

Or we send Arizona into a deeper recession/depression.

The funny part is the ignorance of what the cuts mean. I keep reading that there must be some fat to cut without bothering any delivery of services.

The reality is that the entire government might as well be federalized.

Someday this war's gonna end...

merchants of fear wrote:

who helped create the Obama phenomenon

Nothing "wrong" with that. American politics is marketing. NOTHING else.

sdtfs wrote:

Being afraid to spend is a little different than not wanting to spend.

So is not wanting the trouble of finding contractors, getting quotes, having workmen in and out for several days and having to store valuable objects to avoid damage/theft. All the hassle that comes with a big maintenance project. Being over the hill myself, I am putting off needed repairs for these reasons although I have the money - I just don't want to screw with it. Not wanting to spend may just be a convenient excuse (I have no way of knowing of course).

Jim

My mom will be 86 shortly. We were buying curtains and I kept saying we
should buy them for her 2 rooms; she said no but clearly wanted them, then
said yes, and was happy about it. Walter Cronkite had just died at 92. I said,
see, if you live as long as Walter Cronkite, you will enjoy them for 7 years.

Compared to my grandmother, my mom is a spendthrift!!!

Art Eclectic wrote:

Why not, alcohol is legal and every bit as dangerous.

The “drug problem" is only a problem because of the perceived lack of morals on the part of the drug user. If there was no "moral party" (or popular deity that knows the correct moral behavior) "drugs use" wouldn't be an issue – any more than alcohol is an issue . The dumbasses would purchases all the drugs they wanted, most of them dieing younger than they should, just like alcohol. There'd be the usual "collateral damage" of innocent people being killed - again JUST he alcohol.

The problem is NOT the Alcohol lobby, it's the Moral Lobby.

“I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the bad loans occurred. It was an effort to keep prices from falling too fast. That’s a policy.”

NC Jim, you are probably on to something there. I will give some thought to alleviating her concerns in this area.

Yes, we're talking about the cases where spending less is increasing unhappiness, rather than making someone happy. It's a personal decision that sometimes people need to be nudged on.

You mean like Sapphire martini's?....ahhh....they are divine indeed.

BEWARE OF THE ZOMBIES!!!

Citizen AllenM wrote:

That means a tax increase pronto. Or we send Arizona into a deeper recession/depression.

Is that really an "or" circumstance? Why wouldn't a massive tax increase kill what remains of the taxpaying community?

sdtfs wrote:

Why should we assume that spending more should make her happier?

I'm just comparing her to most people I know. I personally think people "spending" is nothing more than what any animal does during times of plenty; basically, stuff their faces with all the food they can get. However, different generations learn different things from their experiences. The depression people learned to save for tomorrow. The entire US mythology since the 50's is that the US is entitled to prosperity forever because (pick any number): freedom, democracy, eagles, flags, the deity loves us best, whatever....

ok...you spooked me!

I was thinking more of magic mushrooms, but ok, sapphire martinis should
be an accompaniment to a sacrifice to the gods.

Thank you!, Thank you! Thank you!

Time mag thinks Cali is just peachy keen.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

Why wouldn't a massive tax increase kill what remains of the taxpaying community?

Possible but unlikely.
May kill $1 million house sales, though.

lawyerliz wrote:

Time mag thinks Cali is just peachy keen.

It is. If you are lower-upper-class or above, there's no place better; from a life-style perspective. It's why you don't see the rich people really "leaving". Only bitching.

LL,

YouTube - Shakin Stevens - This Ole House

Big hit in the UK.

Regional banks now have very strict standards & deadlines to meet:
Written Agreement between FBOP Corporation, Oak Park, Illinois and Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago
~manage concentration of risk
~maintain sufficient capital
~enhanced internal audit program
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/enforcement/enf20090914a1.pdf

Japan has always had seppuku, right?

Its just all those folks playing around with Rx brain chemistry drugs.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

damage done will be considerable.

Damage was already done.
This is just the formal recognition.

My goodness, I had no idea.

crazyv wrote:

and so cuts can only be made on the basis of hard choices.

Cuts can only be made when people want THEIR socialist programs stopped. As that will never happen, government spending will keep going up.

my mother tells me that she has no money in her checking account- I then tell her that she has a load in CD's that the bank will allow her to break with no penalty. Her response is that is something she has never done. You don't touch your investments ! So now I break the deposits for her and everybody is happy.

crazyv wrote:

Because we have vilified government everybody believes that . In 1995 when the republicans shut down the "non essential" parts of government if backfired big time because people discovered that they actually did like the "non essential" parts of government. While I am sure there is some inefficiency government spends money because the there is a constituency that demands it. and so cuts can only be made on the basis of hard choices.

We can have all the essential government services your heart desires, just replace the pensions with 401(k)'s and cut salaries to private-sector levels.

The problem is overpaying, not that government is doing something it shouldn't be doing for philosophical reasons.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Gonna kill a lot of special interests though.

Ooooh, do you think we'll have to put "special interests" on the endangered species list?

Citizen AllenM wrote:

because our tax code resembles swiss cheese with credits and exemptions galore.

One of the benefits of BEING a politician is creating credits and exemptions. I'd suspect there will be more.

But with MUCH more prudent sounding names.

Each party has 35% of the voters as its control-group of dumbasses. Nothing will change until these people stop believing.

lawyerliz wrote:

When it does, people leave or die.

The US nor CaLi is unlivable. Anymore than Italy or Greece are.

broward wrote:

Damage was already done. This is just the formal recognition.

broward, are you saying that there cannot be any more damage done?

Jack Herer - Chapters

Happy Halloween!

forget about the Orwellian speak- if somebody goes from renting to buying all that you end up with is an empty rental apartment instead of empty condo but the government is out money. It is just plain and simple shitty economic policy. A more sensible policy would be to offer the break to those living in shelters - that would make a difference.

And yet... here in West L.A., anything priced under a million bucks sells very quickly. Went to an OH last weekend. Decent place, lotsa deferred maintenence, but OK. LP- $869,000. (sold in 03 for 675, in 99 for around 300K) This weekend... in escrow! Woohoo! This is quite normal. It's nuts, people are still flipping places, at least FHA eligible places. Place over a million still just sitting, but the "low end' , if ya can call it that, is moving. Plenty of kool aide served here still.

California has passed the event horizon. All we see now is Cherenkov radiation.

and if you have your US flag lapel pin on, NOT.

No, they just have to buy another generation of politicians to get their candy back after this disaster.

Most likely approach is to clean sheet the tax code, raise gas taxes a dime, and increase tax rates by one percent sales tax and income tax.

All in all a minimal impact, since we are in the bottom half of states on almost all of our taxes.

But hey, reality is what the propaganda says.

I estimate if they just cut state government to revenues, that more than half of the remaining employees will be let go- which is below the critical levels. We would also lose nearly a billion in federal aid, as we can no longer afford the state match.

Twenty thousand more folks who don't make very much defaulting on their houses would just make things peachy keen.

The tax increases are minimal, in spite of the propaganda.

Someday this war's gonna end...

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Gonna kill a lot of special interests though.

Hey, I'm all for eliminating special treatment. In fact, I've been hoping that this crisis would kill a lot of those things simply because the need would finally outweigh the lobbies supporting them.

That said, the last quarter's GDP shows that economic activity is pretty much due to credits and exemptions.

HomeGnome wrote:

and if you have your US flag lapel pin on, NOT.

Well, THAT goes without saying. You betcha.

Actually when I told my mother that I was going to be a banker she was kind of disappointed because she thought that I was going to be behind the counter - she probably had it figure out long ago knew the difference between a banker and bankster

I'll play, Gnome.

Marshmallow peanuts! I'd eat so many of them, they'd burn the roof of my mouth off.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

Rob Dawg wrote:
California has passed the event horizon. All we see now is Cherenkov radiation.
Spend a few months in Greece and tell me what the "event horizon" is.

California = 5x Greece. Not even in the same league.

Tonight I am going to come home and dump my GIANT SACK OF CANDY on the floor.
Then I'm going to divide the pile into like candies.
Then I'm going to eat so much candy that my dentist can go ahead and get that new Benz I know he's been eyein'.

broward wrote:

and your side refuses to aknowledge it

My side? What side is that? I pay huge taxes, I just expect them to be used appropriately.

Tonight, as the spirits arise
Lamenting their earthly demise,
Break not the spell,
Protect thyself well
And remember to wear thy disguise.

Nice! Did you write that?

HomeGnome wrote:

----PREPARE TO BE DISAPPOINTED!

And anyone wonders why I'm so cynical?

As Mike in LI will attest, there is simply no more blood to squeeze from us turnips in NYS. The last set of tax increases caused revenue to fall. At some level, you pass a tax event horizon where further rate increases kill of enough activity to wipe out any gains. If NYS paid prevailing wages, we wouldn;t be in this mess. However, 1 in 8 NYS workers is a gov employee, which guarantees very rich contracts. In Saratoga County, the average county employee makes north of 80K a year, well above the median income for the worker bees.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

I pay huge taxes, I just expect them to be used appropriately.

If you get paid W2, get ready to pay more:
California to withhold a bigger chunk of paychecks -- latimes.com
...But it's not a tax, they say...

sm:

Can't you just 0 out your withholding? That's what I would do.

Heh, on C-SPAN today they were replaying the Climate Change hearing from Tuesday. Senator Spector took a nice dump on his constituents.

He was talking about hearings; "Hearings are very useful. Some are not so useful like the town hall meetings I had in August."

Sen. Sanders sounds quite smart. Ray LaHood blaming Eisenhauer for the fact that we don't have high speed passenger rail like Europe and Asia. "We have a worldclass automobile system.. if Eisenhaur signed the high speed rail act, we would have those state of the art systems."

Yes, right now I'm W2, but I always, always specify my withholding percentages. They're not getting a dime more from me.

"Why not, alcohol is legal and every bit as dangerous."

I donated time at a rehab center for a while.

From a purely physical perspective alcohol is probably one of the worst drugs for your system.  Much worse than cocaine, heroin, pot etc..  Much longer for the body to recover than many hard drugs.

If you take enough pot you can induce psychosis

Legal drugs.  Vivodin, oxycontin etc... is the fastest growth area for addiction. 

Meth is absolutely vicious as is huffing toluenes.  Very high incidence of permanent damage to the brain.

Nuke wrote:

Can't you just 0 out your withholding? That's what I would do.

They are counting on the hope that not too many people will figure that out.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes people to catch on, and how quickly the state will move to block that exit.
After that, we'll see if the W2 folks take more drastic action.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

I already hear the whine from the California refugees that move here: Why doesn't the government do X? How come the schools suck?
They move here and expect a lot. They get not much. Welcome to a low cost state. The complaint structure is immense.

Hehehe. I remember when that happened to California. The disease came with the New Yorkers in the 50's and 60's.

JBR wrote:

believe that mortgage rates will be at 5% for very long

No, I'm waiting for them to fall to 4% next year.

Imagine Citi or BofA in a strict 'risk management' agreement with deadlines like the one served to FBOP Corporation...maybe there are risk agreements and deadlines for the Too Big To Fail banks.

The only risk management directions that are relevant for really big banks like Citi or BofA is directions to sell or shut down businesses.
Directions to manage risk concentrations are meaningless given their humongous portfolios. It is like giving turn signals to tankers going through the Suez Canal.

Written agreement...with Fed
'Within 30 days...FBOP shall submit to the Reserve bank an acceptable written plan to reduce FBOP's concentration of commercial real estate loans (CRE)'
The Crash in commercial real estateand in the real economy may require more than 30 days to turn around or sort out. You can see what's coming for hundreds to thousands of local & regional banks exposed to what is now called 'CRE risk'.

If only because I couldn't find "In the Long Run", here's a tribute to the thread's themes of downer luck, crazy stuff and everyone wiggy fried at the end of the trip...

YouTube - The Carrie Nations Look on up at the botton

AllenM is reinforcing my sense that there's a massive political economy shift happening, from states to the center.

C

AllenM;

There is a middle ground between the Galt Gulch types and tax hells like NYS. I don't know much about AZ, but I can tell you there are some places where there is simply nothing left to tax. Each new tax increase in NYS in the past 2 years has caused revenue to fall. The state, especially upstate, is emptying out. What is the state to do?

Nuke wrote:

There is a middle ground between the Galt Gulch types and tax hells like NYS.

The problem in the US isn't taxes. It's WHO'S BENEFITS from the taxes. Taxes are as high in the US as Europe, if you include all the various taxing agencies. We get NOTHING compared to the Europeans.

.....went to a convenience store a bit ago.........some people dressed up in costumes........but I couldn't tell who had on costumes and who didn't. Seemed there was a whole lotta black/orange/pink hair, spikes in the face and heavy makeup.

JBR wrote:
believe that mortgage rates will be at 5% for very long
No, I'm waiting for them to fall to 4% next year.

Just to be clear... I didn't write that post. Just copied and pasted it..

And it any different in Switzerland?

Puhlease.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Cause the schools suck.

And the schools suck for the same reason my zombie bank sucks (from the management point of view, not me loving socialism and getting paid to do nothing point of view). The state AND my zombie bank is too big. Period.

Nuke wrote:

there is simply no more blood to squeeze from us turnips in NYS.

I'm quite happy that I adjusted my W4 withholdings in the beginning of the year for NYS. I wonder if I can get some of those Cali IOU's to remit to to NYS to pay my taxes come April?

Citizen AllenM wrote:

And it any different in Switzerland?

They've got 4 parties over there. But, I'm sure it's basically the same. What OTHER model is possible?!

It is well known that Wally World is the largest employer in AZ.

NaRm,
The reason(for our 2 party 'system') is the 'play'...LOL

There is little to cut from governments anymore without there being some serious consequences. States went into this recession almost directly after the previous one. They had just barely started saving and went on a spending binge in the meantime. This has wiped them out.

This is the cumulative effect of politicians postponing hard decisions (with respect to both taxing and spending) and rewarding those that have bought them.

Go stimulus:

SARATOGA SPRINGS — The city announced Friday that it will receive $1.5 million in stimulus funds to complete the Spring Run Trail, an open-space initiative that will stretch from Congress Park east toward the Northway.

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/10/31/news/doc4aeb8d0f75093265146494.txt

This area of the city is crawling with newly built (or under construction) condos in the 600-800k range. Basically, we are spending money to increase property values in a wealthy part of town. No new jobs will be created. Go stimulus.

Yeah, that perfectly captures the idiot Westside mindset. The person doesn't even realize the implications of what they're saying with regards to future interest rates. Sheesh.

Yep. And, as you know doubt know, this is still the majority mindset here. I still believe it'll change, but I have no idea what the catalyst will be. I mean, asking prices here are still essentially the same as they were 2 years ago. Anything priced realistically (which is still too high IMO) sells pretty quick. Everyone really believes this is the bottom. Crazy.

I'm guessing that was Used House Salesman Spam

I think so too. Problem is, a lot of people here still listen to those idiots.

Yes, taxes ARE the problem. BUT, more infrastructure spending requires higher taxes. Pretty simple. As for here? No fire hydrants, no 100% paved streets, no sewage system, no water system, no vehicle smog requirements, less per capita cops & firefighters, and the county JUST floated their first ever bond for one elementary school. Add in NO state income tax, no corporate tax, no property tax increases over 1% a year for residents.......you don't get cheaper government. Schools are crap everywhere.

Hi Bond Girl - still tracking munis? Any patterns to report? Skrood all over again?

C

You can't cut spending that was premised on debt or one-time sources of revenue, which I think sums up most states. That and spiraling increases in entitlement programs.

NOTaREALmerican wrote:

There is a conflict in these three sentences.

Sentence 1: can't cut. (Ok, let's say that is true).
Sentence 3: went on a spend binge.

Um, Arizona did #1- there are now fewer state employees (outside of the university system) than in 1996. Done. Already happened. Now what?

3- Well, since 1.3 million folks are now on AHCCCS- yes! Out of 6 million people- throw in Medicare at over a million and you might as well socialize medicine entirely- we are there.

Um, we spent $20 million on some high tech investment scam, and gave out $4 billion in tax cuts that were supposed to grow our economy sustainably by poaching jobs from other states. All we got is a lot of houses. Fail.

Someday this war's gonna end...

You imply there was some level of goverment possible BEFORE the "binge"? How about we cut was was binge sent on? Give THAT a try first?

I'm convinced someone could put together a character party and be wholly supported on small-scale donations. Just pledge transparancy, every government record is FOIA'able (not just executive), the legislature has to record and submit their weekly meeting schedule plus notes on who they met (be obvious you met with the health care insurer and what they asked you to do on their behalf).

If I had more political will myself I would start a political movement called "Project 1975" with the aim to convince everyone born after 1975 that the D and R parties suck and we can do, "yes we can" a better job of running the government. Rejecting false hope and false change, and the false pretension and lies of the "small government" party.

Bond Girl wrote:

You can't cut spending that was premised on debt or one-time sources of revenue, which I think sums up most states. That and spiraling increases in entitlement programs.

I know that. But your "binge" comment is still mostly correct. Taxes will be spent until the taxpayers scream. Government, like ALL institutions with lots of loot (yeah, including bidness - I am NOT a libertarian - I'm a PURE libertarian, please, ... with lots of loot) WILL BE run by THE "smart amoral scumbags". That's how Merica works.

If you want to give the "smart amoral scumbag" more loot. Fine, I don't care. I'm too old to care. My taxes aren't unbearable yet.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Um, we spent $20 million on some high tech investment scam, and gave out $4 billion in tax cuts that were supposed to grow our economy sustainably by poaching jobs from other states. All we got is a lot of houses. Fail.

The "smart amoral scumbag" run your goverment. Geee. I'm shocked.

Bond Girl wrote:

I realize this is probably only clear to people who study budgets for a living, but many governments have let on-going commitments increase while gaming their accounting and using other gimmicks.

I don't think you give some people enough credit. Anyone who reads the newspaper.... ...Oh, wait.

Nevermind.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

Hell, Perot almost pulled it off.

Perot!. And who in-the-hell would he have had RUN the govenment. The "smart amoral scumbags" that ran his company and were (mostly) living on overbilling government contracts.

People are so hung-up on the HERO is gonna save us. There's a VERY simple solution. Stop voting for EITHER party and vote for somebody else. It takes a Party to run a government. Not one person.

TJ and The Bear wrote:

THAT shouldn't too difficult. Hell, Perot almost pulled it off.

And thank to Perot, a lot of people born before 1975 might only need a reminder.

jussumbody wrote:

What's next, laws against masturbation?

If the right party gets elected, YOU betcha!

TJ,

I'm down by the LACMA/Farmers Market. "Beverly Grove" I believe they're calling it now. Leave it to L.A. realtors to name a neighborhood after the malls it encompasses.

May not "moral"; maybe "honest" and "transparent".

NaRm,

Not commenting on his abilities, just saying that convincing the citizenry that they're being screwed by the existing parties isn't exactly a tall order.

Mike:

I don't know how downstate government works, but upstate one of the problems we have is the sheer number of governments. In most places, you have the state, county and municipal governments. The municipals run the schools, highway dept, police, etc. Not so up here. My suburban town does not have a police force; that is done by the county or the state police barracks. Most of the major road work is done by the county (our highway department handles small stuff like cutting grass). The school district is a separate government entity with its own admin and taxing authority. Same with the library district, and the water/sewer district. The huge number of independent and quasi-independent agencies (each with their own administrative structure and taxing authority) is ripe for abuse and overspending. Few things are more difficult to kill off than bureaucratic fiefdoms. Oh, my town has 140 employees. I think there might be some room to cut here.

Bond Girl wrote:

And my reference to a spending binge was what happened between recessions.

When they should have been building their "rainy day funds". There was talk about that, but apparently no action.

I take it back- Arizona, thanks to the last Dem pushing money at schools managed to overtake California slightly.

Amazing. Well, give us five minutes of cutting and we will be back to Mississippi levels.

Over 20 kids in the average classroom.

Now look at AZ versus New York:

State Profiles Home Page

12 kids in a classroom?

Luxury!

Someday this war's gonna end...

TJ and The Bear wrote:

Not commenting on his abilities, just saying that convincing the citizenry that they're being screwed by the existing parties isn't exactly a tall order.

No, and it's hopeless anyway. 35% of the populate vote fascist because their BRAIN are facsist (the kick-ass frat-boy party). Another 35% vote socialist because of THEIR brains (the smothering mommy party). That only leaves 30%.

People pick Parties for same reason they pick deities. Because they (the party or the deity) match how their brains think (react to reality).

"...you don't get cheaper government. "

Sounds like you get what you pay for. But try running even a fair sized town with inadequate fire, water, police, sewage services, roads etc.

AllenM:

12 kids per classroom? Not in any school I heard of.

"...react to reality)"

Which is?

pavel.chichikov wrote:

Which is?

The closest thing that matches the existing stories in their brains.

mike in long island
oh yeah i guess they will need that in this go around,
when when are they going to get around to the right thing?

Disempowered Paper Pusher,
Yeah there was money in banking for the smaller banks...riding into the sunset with some real accumulated cash...then it is not so bad to be shut down...maybe hey did Kelly a 'favor'...

pavel.chichikov wrote:

So reality is whatever is in people's brains? If you fall out of window, is the sidewalk in your brain?

Not sure what you mean. If you fall out of window when you hit the sidewalk THAT is reality. There was already, however, a story in your brain about not getting too close to the window because you might fall out and then hit the sidewalk causing very serious damages.

i know it, liz
this old house once knew my children " now im going to have to google cause thats all i can remember.
This Ole House Lyrics by Rosemary Clooney

Mike in Long Island wrote:

We have the same down here - tons of special taxing districts: sanitation, water, sewer, fire. School budgets are voted separately as well. The special taxing district elections are a joke - usually held the Friday before a 3 day weekend with polling open between 7pm and 8pm and a 1/4 inch notification in the local fish wrap.

Life in Merica, is about running a scam. I don't have anything again people in government running a scam on me or anybody else. If they can get away with it they should. I'd do the same thing. Having self-delusion and duplicity is THE most important personality attribute you can have.

i like Dots,jujufruits,twizzlers

sdtfs wrote:

T his puzzles me. Anyone else want to volunteer the fact that they don't know their mother's birthday?"

My mother's age is a state secret...early to mid eighties I think.