Boy, that's fantastic. What a deal for move-up buyers, even ones making five times the median income in America. Awesome. I'm thrilled. Fortunately, the cratering of the real estate market from Asset Bubble N-1 will make the 5 year minimum easy to achieve for even the most hardened of flippers. I wonder if you have to successfully sell your current residence, or whether jingle mail is good enough.
Meanwhile, on the backwards side of the world...
HONG KONG -- Concerns about a growing bubble in Hong Kong's high-end property market pushed central bankers here to increase the required down payment on luxury homes to 40%, from the current 30%....
This is obviously bad economics, but it must be good politics. The first-time home buyer impact will fade (and will probably cost over $100,000 per additional home sold). The move-up portion will probably be even less effective.
Apparently this tax credit will be combined with the extension of the unemployment benefits to avoid a veto (the real reason the extension was being held up).
Sometimes I think the speculation here is more accurate than the reported news. WTF
I know you guys hate this, but if it goes through, I'm putting the house on the market immediately, rather than waiting until spring. And if my thinking is like that of others, it might bring a lot of shadow inventory onto the market, so prices could drop faster than they might have done otherwise.
The majority Party knows that 35% of the dumbass peasants will vote for them regardless. All they need is that last 15% to win. Same for the other guys. Each has about 35% solid dumbass support. The majority of the remaining 30% still think there's a difference between the two parties.
Still waiting on the "jumbo conforming" limits (417K - up to 729K) to be extended. Those are supposed to expire at the end of the year, and are already causing confusion (lots of banks won't take 417+ apps now in case they don't close before 12/31).
I would expect that to be extended pretty soon as well.
OT and Long but Barney's and Timmy's view of TBTF reform:
For Immediate Release: October 26, 2009
Financial Services Committee and Treasury Department Release Draft Legislation to Address Systemic Risk, “Too Big to Fail” Institutions
Washington, DC - Today, the House Financial Services Committee and the Treasury Department released draft legislation to address the issue of systemic risk and “too big to fail” financial institutions. The draft bill will:
Create a mechanism for monitoring and reducing the threats that systemically risky firms pose to the financial system.
Establish a process for winding down large, financially-troubled non-bank financial institutions in a way that protects American taxpayers and minimizes the impact on the financial system.
Overhaul and update our financial regulatory system.
A summary of the draft legislation can be viewed below; the full text can be viewed here.
Summary of the Financial Stability Improvement Act
The Financial Services Committee and the Obama Administration are committed to ensuring that the taxpayers are never again called upon to take responsibility for Wall Street’s business decisions. The bill creates a strong, inter-agency council to monitor and oversee stability of the financial system and address threats to that stability. The bill provides strengthened supervision for large, interconnected financial firms to prevent failure. A new resolution regime will ensure that firms that fail despite these measures will do so in a way that minimizes impacts on taxpayers, the health of the financial system and the overall economy.
Specifically, the draft legislation:
Creates the Financial Services Oversight Council to monitor systemic risks.
The Council will identify financial companies and financial activities that pose a threat to financial stability, and will subject those companies and activities to heightened prudential oversight, standards and regulation.
The Council will also subject systemically important financial market utilities and payment, clearing and settlement activities to heightened oversight, standards and regulation.
Harmonizes and consolidates holding company regulation so there is “no place to hide,” ensures communication and coordination among regulators and maintains clear lines of authority
Removes the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act’s restraints on the Fed’s authority over companies subject to consolidated regulation and provides specific authority to the Fed and other federal financial agencies to regulate for financial stability purposes and quickly address potential problems.
Puts safeguards on current ILC and other non-bank bank institutions and closes the ILC and other non-bank bank exemptions going forward; current non-bank banks, industrial loan companies, and similar companies that engage in commercial activities but are not currently subject to bank holding company regulation will not have to divest, but will have to restructure, creating a bank holding company to hold all financial activities, and will face limits on transactions between the bank holding company and any commercial affiliates. Going forward, no additional commercial companies will be allowed to own banks, ILCs or any other specialty bank charters.
Preserves the thrift charter for those thrifts dedicated to mortgage lending, but subjects thrift holding companies to supervision by the Fed to eliminate opportunities for regulatory arbitrage.
Subjects firms or activities that pose significant risks to the system to heightened, comprehensive scrutiny by Federal regulators.
Regulators’ inability to see developments outside their narrow “silos” allowed the current crisis to grow unchecked. The bill’s information gathering and sharing requirements for the Council and all of the financial regulators (including SEC and CFTC) will ensure constant communication and the ability to look across markets for potential risks.
Federal regulators will impose heightened standards through a variety of options tailored to the specific threat posed – there is no “one size fits all” approach.
The Fed will have back-up authority to step in if regulators do not act quickly to address developing problems identified by the Council.
Provides for the orderly wind-down of failing firms and ends “too big to fail” to ensure that industry and shareholders absorb the risks and costs of failure, not taxpayers.
Large, highly complex financial companies that fail will do so in an orderly and controlled manner, ensuring that shareholders and unsecured creditors bear the losses, not taxpayers, and the stability of the overall financial system is protected.
The FDIC will be able to unwind a failing firm so that existing contracts can be dealt with, creditors’ claims can be addressed, and parties required to bear losses do so. Unlike traditional bankruptcy, which does not account for complex interrelationships of such large firms and may endanger financial stability, this more flexible process will help prevent contagion and disruption to the entire system and the overall economy.
Costs to resolve a failing firm will be repaid first from the assets of the failed firm at the expense of shareholders and creditors, and to the extent of any shortfall, from assessments on all large financial firms. In this instance we follow the “polluter pays” model where the financial industry has to pay for their mistakes—not taxpayers.
Resolution Fund is structured to spread the cost over a broad range of financial companies with assets of $10 billion or more, and provides for a flexible repayment period to avoid potential procyclical effect of such assessments.
Provides new accountability for the Fed when it addresses short-term credit market disruptions in emergency situations.
Requires approval by the Treasury Secretary for the Fed to provide temporary liquidity assistance using section 13(3) of the Federal Reserve Act, and confines that assistance to generally available facilities.
Credit Risk Retention
Directs the federal banking regulators and the Securities and Exchange Commission to jointly write rules to require creditors to retain 10 percent or more, of the credit risk associated with any loans that are transferred or sold including for the purpose of securitization. Regulators can adjust the level of risk retention above or below 10 percent, but not lower than 5 percent. In the case of the securitization of assets that are not originated by creditors, the regulators will require the securitizer to retain the credit risk.
btw, not to be a prick or anything, but so much for all the backslapping among the bloggers who thought they had killed the FTHB tax credit through logical arguments.
they clearly don't understand how deep down the rabbit hole we have fallen. the corruption in our Fascist government is beyond what most people would believe.
I know you guys hate this, but if it goes through, I'm putting the house on the market immediately, rather than waiting until spring. And if my thinking is like that of others, it might bring a lot of shadow inventory onto the market, so prices could drop faster than they might have done otherwise.
Might as well; you can always reject if you don't like the offers. Have you seen about someone "house sitting"? It'll probably save you some money on insurance if you think it's going to be awhile before you can sell-
I'm shocked that the amount of the gift was decreased. And I'm sure it's a "stated" residency of five years for the move up buyers. And as for Obama vetoing this, I'd have my doubts.
I'm completely and utterly terrified, actually. Most of my zip code is "move up" housing, and I can only imagine the number of homes that have not been on the market because of the economy. I can see 20 -30 more homes coming on the MLS, at least.
Cheap Skates! Live it up. It ain't like it's your money.
It's not how much each additional home purchase costs. It's how much is this in BBB? (banker bonus bucks)
I never expected to have an impact. I worked hard against DAPs many years ago - with no luck too.
The only reason I argued against this tax credit was because it was obviously bad policy. Now I have two failures to point to when people ask me to advocate for a position. So back to our normal programming ...
I'm shocked that the amount of the gift was decreased.
That part actually is quite strange, particularly since we're looking at higher housing prices for the $250k income crowd. I wonder if some congressional aide forgot to carry a 2 somewhere. That of course makes this no less outrageous on principle alone, but it will make it less efficacious at getting Asset Bubble N+1 firing.
Here's my contribution to today's levity.
I thought I'd seen it all but this one's really over the top...
Hi,
We are looking for a strong project manager for a microsoft project for the next 3 days.** Please accept our appology if this is not what you want to consider.
The project is located in Sammamish, WA. The client needs a strong PM to run triage, take notes, update triage blog and follow up on open items. It would be beneficial if the candidate has some microsoft experience.
If you are interested, please forward your updated resume and rate requirement.
BTW, if this really does temporarily push prices back up, it may be a good time to sell and rent for a while, knowing that when the drugs are gone, the patient is gonna crash.
Most people aren't going to take the chance and ruin their good credit-rating. The opportunities are limited unless one is willing to become an uber-risk taker.
Funny, the tone of CR's comment matches exactly what I was just about to post....namely:
I feel like calling my Congressmen to express how strongly I oppose this bad policy. But why bother, as they have ignored my numerous calls about the bank bailout, and other bad policy decisions along the way.
I agree with the rising sentiment that we are living in a fascist state best described as an oligarchy/corporatocracy.
" There is a minimum 5 year residency requirement in their current home for move-up home buyers."
So you don't have to stay in the new home 5 years and this locks out buyers since 2005 right ?
The client needs a strong PM to run triage, take notes, update triage blog and follow up on open items. It would be beneficial if the candidate has some microsoft experience.
Let me distill this.
"American with experience required to rescue failing project before grunt work redispatched to India. SEND HELP QUICK PLZ."
I was recently contacted by a consultant from Bangladesh who was trying to implement something for the University of Vermont. Part of the project specification included open source technology I work on. The consultant couldn't even understand what the technology was for, much less how to implement it or integrate it with the project. He went away after I refused to meet his demands of talking to him during the Bangladeshi business day.
btw, not to be a prick or anything, but so much for all the backslapping among the bloggers who thought they had killed the FTHB tax credit through logical arguments.
Didn't really think that logic had any power over the political card trading here but I'll admit that the economics are just so horrible that I didn't think they would go with it. CR and others have done the math and it made no sense but like you point out, logic is out the window and we are in Wonderland. Nothing would surprise me at this point. The biggest surprise is the lack of reform to come out of D.C. Weren't we scraping bottom in March? So much for remembering our lesson.
The fact that they are expanding this, not only extending it is amazing. But Rob Dawg is right. This is just another form of extend and pretend. So what if a $600,000 mortgage is now in default. Put that sucker in HAMP and who cares if the bank takes in $1,500 a month. They can still claim that face value amount. Yet at some point, something will have to give.
I just got off the phone to my contractor. He's really happy about this, since his business is so slow. He was one of the few builders who used his own crew, employees rather than subs. He's had to let them all go. It's sad, because he is a high-quality custom builder and got screwed, like a lot of tradespeople.
Didn't really think that logic had any power over the political card trading here but I'll admit that the economics are just so horrible that I didn't think they would go with it.
You think that policy in America has any relation to reality! What a knee-slapper.
Yeah, it's no fun trying to work with someone in another hemisphere. South Asia is essentially 12 hrs out of sync with the USA, so having an actual conversation with your counterpart invoives one of you coming into the office early, and the other staying late.
Wow, so they went from spurring demand which is now soaked, to spurring supply? Clearly this is a gift to RE agents and loan pushers. I guess propping up housing prices isn't their main goal after all. Get ready for an over-correction, folks. Prices are about to drop below the floor.
Are you Experienced? This 'bubble' chart will blow your mind.
'We see the astonishingly rapid growth of the securities sector relative to the other sectors of the economy'.
pg 4 - 'Chart Growth of Assets of 4 sectors(Security Broker Dealers, Commercial banks, non-financial Corporate, Households)
Look at how security broker 'assets' (securitization) takes off after November 1999 when the Glass Steagall Act(1933) was repealed by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Straight up to the Moon. Then down some after 2006 when the 'Bust' started... http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr382.pdf
I think it's clear they expect to be able to salvage the overall direction and architecture quickly before getting cheap people to do the actual work. Depending on the project, that may not be unreasonable. Who knows. They probably don't.
A CIO of a major R1 University who's a close friend of mine recently confided, "We view cloud computing as promising only because it's an excellent stalking horse for outsourcing." As one of the only young innovators left in our increasingly emaciated computer research world, it was like fingernails on a chalkboard.
If we can get over our fetish for pretty facilities and a good basketball team, educational costs will come down fast in America. Everything else is going fast.
All this money being thrown at all our economic problems really seems to be an attempt to keep the lid on a boiling pot. Ain't gonna work and when it finally boils over virtually everybody in this country is going to get burned severely. Until we see massive job growth and rising wages nothing will change. And THAT ain't gonna happen either. We REALLY are fucked. I'm ready for a military coup or a giant meteorite strike on DC. Only the unthinkable can save us now and it better happen quick.
Bloomberg"The credit would be limited to homes costing $800,000 or less."
Good news since the median home price for the U.S. comes in at $170,000. That $7,290 cap does little for the mid-tier homes here in California that are anchored to Alt-A and option ARMs.
"If the bill is approved by both chambers on Capitol Hill and is signed by the president, those who cannot find work would be eligible for a maximum of 99 weeks of benefits."
I don't think so. This new tech won't support the density of desktop/notebook processors, but it will enable all kinds of interesting applications. Smart clothes, foldable screens, color-changing objects, maybe sixth sense types of awareness.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of houses in the 850k and up range suddenly went to 799k. Which would make the existing 799k houses look like less of a good deal, causing a price drop, and so on and so forth. It may be just the opposite of the feeding frenzy that happened with first-time buyers.
What stops a "move up buyer" from buying a house and walking away from the old one?
A friend signs a lease for the old house to cover the mortgage, then skips after escrow closes on the buyers new house.
A CIO of a major R1 University who's a close friend of mine recently confided, "We view cloud computing as promising only because it's an excellent stalking horse for outsourcing."
Same in corporate-land. Like all future jobs in the US, the only viable job will be one that is somehow physically related to something that can't be moved out of the country. There will be less and less jobs for the average introverted semi-autistic males that inhabit much of IT society. I guess they'll start building meth-labs now too.
Logic has nothing to do with it. It's just jolting the system, which at the moment is flatlined. You have to remember, about 60% of the economy was tied to FIRE in some way. That's a lot of irate phone calls to Congresscritters. They have to be seen to "do something, even if it's wrong" as my father used to say.
Are the median income statistics really accurate? Because it would be good for morale if the majority of the population thought that they were getting WAY more than the median income.
And those stats would be easy to whitewash. Just a thought....
I really don't get that myself. Not as dumb as the overall package, just contradictory. But I'm having to control myself from laughing to death over the fact that MOVE-UP buyers are included. They really want to spur supply? How retarded are they?
Hey, relax everyone! The $8k/$7k doesn't mean a whole lot for expensive locations, but for places with $80,000 - $150,000 homes (flyover land), this is great. It's just an attempt to let places like Kansas and North Dakota get as expensive and bubbly as Florida and California.
"The legislation, also being considered by leaders in the House, may be attached to a bill extending unemployment benefits that may be debated as early as this week, according to Regan Lachapelle, an aide to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. "
"But I am asking why they would stop a FTHB with good income from getting the credit but its ok for a move up buyer with good income to get the credit.
Does that make less sense than adding move-up buyers? I might drown from the tears as I'm laughing so hard at that. To promote an oversupply after they purged the demand is so funny.
There will be less and less jobs for the average introverted semi-autistic males that inhabit much of IT society. I guess they'll start building meth-labs now too.
Our outsourcing isn't so much to Bangladesh -- though that is a part of it -- as it is to Google, Microsoft Live, Facebook, Yahoo, Salesforce, etc. They offer a free alternative to hiring people for infrastructure so long as you're comfortable allowing them to own and search all your data.
Most modern bean-counting CIO's are quite happy to sell out the privacy and academic freedoms of their faculty and students. Indeed, the Chronicle of Higher Ed even wondered if Google Wave will replace institutional learning systems completely.
Strangely, Europe and China are having none of these problems, and maintain strong universities. Wonder what their problem is.
But my experience as a semi-autistic nerdy male is that we'll end up playing Warcraft and painting Warhammer miniatures in between Super Smash Bros. parties.
Normally, even with pretty insane things, I can make heads or tails of how people got to from A to B. I just can't with this one. I'm trying to see it from every angle and can't figure out why they would do it.
But I am asking why they would stop a FTHB with good income from getting the credit but its ok for a move up buyer with good income to get the credit.
It doesn't make any sense.
They needed to move the smaller, less expensive houses first?
They wanted to look like they were doing something for the little people?
Younger people haven't had time to trash their credit?
I really don't know. It just probably sounded good. Giving the credit to the "not wealthy".
When the majority of the population despises the UE. Another year should do it.
GET A JOB YOU LAZY BUMS, I WORK FOR A LIVING, I'M NOT LIVIN ON WELFARE.
Dude, I thought you worked for a zombie bank, just like I work for zombie academia. I'd love to feel like I had a damn chance at fighting these trends, but I don't. I'm just glad my welfare payment is greater than that of the other peasants, and look forward to the day the entire edifice crashes down so we can really work and really make the world a better place.
Hey, relax everyone! The $8k/$7k doesn't mean a whole lot for expensive locations, but for places with $80,000 - $150,000 homes (flyover land), this is great. It's just an attempt to let places like Kansas and North Dakota get as expensive and bubbly as Florida and California.
Why should the coasts have all the fun?
They needed to move the smaller, less expensive houses first?
They wanted to look like they were doing something for the little people?
Younger people haven't had time to trash their credit?
I really don't know. It just probably sounded good. Giving the credit to the "not wealthy".
Still doesn't make sense. The ONLY thing I can come up with is they want to limit certain peoples purchasing power. So that people with equity aren't competing with those with cash... but the universe it would effect is so small and wouldn't be a deteriment (imho) to those FTHB with the cash. It just seems like a blank 125k/250k income cap would make much more sense.
Postpone D-Day with extensions and get some main St. relief in advance for the failing or bailout 2 of some of theTBTF(minus the last Bank standing)...
glad they did this because Goldman Sachs yesterday said they that housing had found a "false bottom" I'm sure won't benefit from this at all but they would agree it was necessary.
“The risk of renewed home price declines remains significant,” Alec Phillips, an economist based in Goldman’s Washington office, said in an Oct. 23 note to clients. “Our working assumption is a further 5 percent to 10 percent decline by mid-2010.”
Worst case analysis, not only is this going to drive a lot of inventory onto the market, it's going to kill demand just as the last wave of option ARM foreclosures floods in, about 2011. (IIRC) Which implies a big load of dead banks about that time, too. So there's a cascade effect that lands on the taxpayer regardless, which could kill any recovery and inaugurate the new Depression.
Our outsourcing isn't so much to Bangladesh -- though that is a part of it -- as it is to Google, Microsoft Live, Facebook, Yahoo, Salesforce, etc. They offer a free alternative to hiring people for infrastructure so long as you're comfortable allowing them to own and search all your data.
Ahhh, interesting. We're still stuck with outsourcing to employees (pesky auditors). I guess our senior-leaders haven't been able to get around the resistance of just making all our account data public to google (like) companies and outsourcing to them. Hmmm, perhaps they just haven't thought of that, yet....
Did you see the featured reader response to that story?
"I'll have to call my friend and tell him his vacation was just extended for another 20 weeks. Now I will never beat him at golf with all the practice he gets."
This is magnificent in many ways. They are limiting demand by keeping all the checks in place that were there before for income, but spurring supply by essentially bribing people to sell their houses. My mind is in a whirlwind. On one hand, I can't wait to see the devastation. On the other, I think this has to be a practical joke. It's just impossible. They went from "prop the housing bubble" to "let's make it worth nothing". Of course that's inconsequential to evil groups like NAR that simply want transactions. That's all this is about.
But, I try to maintain my level of self-delusional superiority by finding other peasants to despise. Keeps me in-touch with my old college Young Republican daze. Kinda like the oldsters on medicare health-care welfare complaining about others joining in on the fun.
It must be nice. I wish I could easily integrate into a zombie organization. Unfortunately, I do horribly in zombie organizations and have had to find refuge in the chaos that is helping people to destroy each other's families. Occasionally, I have to watch home-made adult videos for research purposes.
I wonder, how much impact these measures (extend unemployment, and more of "Uncle Sam buys everyone a new house") will have on the budget deficit? Throw in the $250 payment increase to Social Security recipients, and we must be talking an additional $100B hit to the budget, no?
Will it send the dollar lower still? Seems like TPTB just won't tolerate the dollar strengthening, like it did the past couple days.
Did you see the featured reader response to that story?
"I'll have to call my friend and tell him his vacation was just extended for another 20 weeks. Now I will never beat him at golf with all the practice he gets."
I registered just to +1 that comment. 87-13 on the vote. I'd be a lot more bitter about the extension half of the enslavement of the populace if my organization weren't also getting Federal Money funneled through a variety of agencies. This comrade instead just kisses polished boots in thanks.
ROFLOL. There is definitely some of that ... but I feel for most of these people. They are not only out of work, but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:15 pm
But, I try to maintain my level of self-delusional superiority by finding other peasants to despise. Keeps me in-touch with my old college Young Republican daze.
Why be a semi-autistic male when you can be a racist Nixon-rehabilitator? You'd have to stack ten antisocial otaku glomp-artists on one-another's shoulders to make a pile of shit as high as a Young Republican.
if my organization weren't also getting Federal Money funneled through a variety of agencies
Oh be still my disdain o'er Higher Ed. Nothing gets me revved up more than academics and/or their support staff complaining about people mooching off of the USG dole...
...stack ten antisocial otaku glomp-artists on one-another's shoulders to make a pile of shit as high as a Young Republican.
Wow. Just wow. There is so much WIN in that one phrase that I don't even know where to start.
.
And since I know plenty of YRs who were CRs, all I can say is that I never thought piling antisocial yellow-fever otakus in comparison against them...
It must be nice. I wish I could easily integrate into a zombie organization.
I admit, it IS a very tough job. But, if there weren't people like me ,working diligently throughout Merica's glorious zombie corporations, our entire way of life would end.
but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
Well, at least they can work in the financial industry. You don't need any skills to speak of. All it takes is a permanently bullish outlook. Plus, you actually get paid extra when you do a bad job. What could be better than that?
"yagij (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 4:20 pm
reply ignore user
poic wrote:
Yu should. Wei all should.
Wei? Yu worried about getting shanghai'd over your US debts?"
my global tshtf plan
Other passport? Check
Asian wife? Check
Indian friends? Check
Copious amounts of cynicism? Check
They went from "prop the housing bubble" to "let's make it worth nothing". Of course that's inconsequential to evil groups like NAR that simply want transactions. - K
It also gooses worker mobility and inter-state migration. Which also generates spending in hotels, U-haul, corporate, etc. And possibly some major demographic shifts in the states. That could affect the states' revenues pretty drastically.
I don't get why there is a higher income cap on move-up buyers, than there is for a first time buyer. What incentive/disincentive is that supposed to provide?
Oh be still my disdain o'er Higher Ed. Nothing gets me revved up more than academics and/or their support staff complaining about people mooching off of the USG dole...
Fortunately, virtually everyone left in higher ed fully embraces large government and all the personal benefits it brings us today.
It was even funnier when a national lab came knocking on my door about a year ago. They were impressed by my research publications, but I had reservations about working in that kind of a stultified environment. I mean, I'm used to zombie -- but mummy? The leap from strychnine to gauze was more than I was prepared to make.
Fortunately, the entire conversation became moot after they dropped me like a flaming bag of MBS when they found out I don't have a Ph.D. to tack on their wall to impress the Politburo.
CalculatedRisk (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:19 pm
ROFLOL. There is definitely some of that ... but I feel for most of these people. They are not only out of work, but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
Too true. There really isn't going to be a winner in the competition between new college grads and rusty old hands when the economy does start to genuinely revive. It's going to bid down wages and leave significant segments of both cohorts effectively unemployable due to 5+ years without a job in their field. It's fun to be cruel, but there's going to be a lasting legacy of structurally unemployable individuals that's worth keeping in mind -- it may increase the latent unemployment at the "full employment" level markedly for a decade or two after this.
Not to offend, but an "asian wife" is only good in specific locales. Roaming the subways of Nagoya with a lass from Vietnam wouldn't give me that much comfort...
Oh, this gives the owners who short sale a way to buy a new house. Very smart thinking.
As people have no money when they do a short sale or are forclosed on, the tax credit / down payment will get them into another house. That works, a second chance to lose your house, just like the people trying to get a loan mod. Perfect thinking.
Fortunately, the entire conversation became moot after they dropped me like a flaming bag of MBS when they found out I don't have a Ph.D. to tack on their wall to impress the Politburo.
Glad to see that they kept their eyes on the prize. Only another reason that I look forward to the Higher Ed. popping. If only I live long enough to see that day. It will be like my personal crumpling of the Academic Ivory Watchtower wall, and I will do anything to buy a piece of it.
I don't get why there is a higher income cap on move-up buyers, than there is for a first time buyer. What incentive/disincentive is that supposed to provide?
If, and that is a big IF, you can sell your house - you can use the credit for your down payment. You can sell your house and get nothing and buy another house. Maybe?
Yeah, it's no fun trying to work with someone in another hemisphere. South Asia is essentially 12 hrs out of sync with the USA, so having an actual conversation with your counterpart invoives one of you coming into the office early, and the other staying late.
Nothing gets me revved up more than academics and/or their support staff complaining about people mooching off of the USG dole
If yer not running a scam - or participating in one - there's "No work for YOU". For at least 20 years, the only way to make good money was being part of a scam. IT itself is a big scam, but run primarily by the less-introverted geeks, who moved up from incompetent technician to IT management. IT management then scams the hapless non-IT management.
Marketing is scamming the customers, senior management is scammin’ the stockholders; huge corporation are just conduits for scammed loot. Works for me.
you'd be amazed. When we went to Vietnam a lot of locals thought my Chinese wife was a local. Same thing happened in Thailand. I'm sure it wouldn't happen in Japan though.
Our country runs on faith, trust and fairy dust...my belief in the first two equals the reality of the third.
Extend and pretend is the mantra but eventually pretending becomes psychotic if you continue to ignore the facts of our economy. What is the hope the government wants to promote without rebuilding the fundamentals of a healthy economy? Has the entire raison d'etre of our system to be reelected and grant looting rights to your supporters? How flawed have we become as a people to continue "go along to get along"?
Everything has a fail point. Our leadership has become the guy who hands his buddy his beer and says, " Hey, watch this."
Marketing is scamming the customers, senior management is scammin’ the stockholders; huge corporation are just conduits for scammed loot. Works for me.
I heard a soundbite by Ice-T (or Ice Cube) on a radio show that has stuck with me for years: "Everyone needs a lil' hustle in their game to survive."
I find the extension of Unemployment benefits just as amazing.
we are at almost 2 years of pogey payments at the max?
Time to call it what it is - welfare, dole, assistance, whatever - and get over it. We aren't going to let people starve in the streets in mass numbers - in the end we'll at least make it able for them to buy cheap liquor & sleep it off in a slum dwelling [or mobile home if rural]... we are compassionate, remember.
But my experience as a semi-autistic nerdy male is that we'll end up playing Warcraft and painting Warhammer miniatures in between Super Smash Bros. parties
Mad network skilz needed for those weekend long floating LAN parties...which I guess would just be longer now...
Nope, it wouldn't. Also, knowledge of the locale and natives is just as important.
.
I knew of a guy who could easily get into the "gentlemen's clubs" in the shady backstreets of Japan because his Inuit traits helped him blend in. The important part was keeping his mouth closed--have his friends cover for him--to make it work. As gaijin, I never had that ability... err, I mean if I ever wanted to get in there...
And the dumbasses (like I used to be) think "hustle" means givin' that 110%.
There is a reason they say, "Work smarter, not harder". It is just that many of us had to learn the Puritan work ethic wasn't the "smarter" way to do it.
The entire system is twisted. The system can't tolerate affordable housing despite the fact that we have 19 million vacant homes! We're impoverishing ourselves with debt to ensure that the majority overpays for housing in order to preserve the value of bad debt. It's unbelievable.
All so faux wealth can be preserved. Enjoy your "wealth" Warren Buffett et. al.
CR - this article on the likely S&P downgrade of the mortgage insurers ( MarketWatch.com reminded me that there were concerns expressed a few months back that the inability to obtain mortage insurance may seriously impact the ability to get loans with less than 20% down - any further thoughts on the matter?
I watched that movie, and I must admit that I liked it much more than I expected. However, I do think that there is a subtle difference between the hustle and the scam. I'll have to think about it some more.
However, I do think that there is a subtle difference between the hustle and the scam.
And, of course, your brain has to be able to scam too. I can't. Somebody posted something on here a few days ago that said (something like): I couldn't sell water to a man that had his hair on fire.
And, not all selling is scamming. I tend to be a bit over-the-top cynical. Most people are just trying to work, eat, be comfortable, and then die.
...so congress doesnt believe in the recovery either! - g
I don't think they have any idea what may happen. Everything they've done so far has been reactive, indicative of short-term thinking. And most of them are lawyers, not econ types. So their instinct is to stop the phones ringing first, and deal with the consequences later. By which time, they will have done enough spin control to enable them to get re-elected.
I know an American who married a Japanese woman and lived there. They had a lot of problems, hard to rent a place, cabs not stopping for them etc... Its not just the us that has these sorts of problems.
I don't get why there is a higher income cap on move-up buyers, than there is for a first time buyer. What incentive/disincentive is that supposed to provide?
An incentive to expand the waste of money, I mean program, when it comes up in April.
I do not know how much the UE will cost, but estimating for 1m households @ $750/week for 20 weeks, costs 15b$ . Am I right? Heck the GS bonus pool is bigger than that, isn't it? And that is taxpayers money as well, one way or another. And remember many of these unemployed people rent and do not receive the mortgage deduction you rich fat homeowner f*ckers receive from uncle for ever. So enough with the holier than thou crap! These people need to eat.
They had a lot of problems, hard to rent a place, cabs not stopping for them etc... Its not just the us that has these sorts of problems.
Oh the stories of xenophobia (what we call in America "racism") I can tell! Every non-western hotel in which I stayed, I'm sure they burned everything they could to do away with the horrible (perceived?) stench that my presence left.
scone (profile) wrote on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:46 pm
I don't think they have any idea what may happen. Everything they've done so far has been reactive, indicative of short-term thinking.
Agreed completely with Scone. Everything I've seen so far seems to indicate Congress doesn't have the slightest grasp as an institution what's going on. A few individuals might be clueful they aren't acting in a way that portrays them to be aware as a group of the shape or scope of the crisis. They're mostly leaving it to the senior mandarins like Timmah.
The working class will be shown what fools they are. Revolt, quit working.
See, this is ridiculous. If you work for the right organization, revolting and quitting working have nothing to do with each other. Sloth is part of the job description.
For example, Cal State University has unionized staff. Some of the ones with which I've worked will put in 4 hour days that are dedicated to literally refusing to do anything, simultaneously blocking forward progress on major projects. They can do this because "merit pay" is at most something like 2% of their annual compensation, and it's basically impossible to fire anyone. Even if you try to work, you can't accomplish anything.
Then CSU awarded a $200,000,000 contract to Oracle through executive corruption exposed by a state legislature that did absolutely nothing about it afterwards.
I've been "on call" one way or another for my entire career. It's not new to me.
People who work at home generally learn to manage their time. Or they go back to the cube farm.
Me too - most folks are NOT into it... especially taking calls at 3 AM Monday morning... and they HAVE to answer. Been there - know others there right now [critical engineering support for a factory in rural China - he doesn't have the option of a cube or home... its rural China cube or home]... not for everyone nor should it be.
When the Broken Glass Fallacy actually works in your macro-economy, you might be in a Depression.
I was thinking the same thing - that and if we are there then total [Austrian style] collapse can't be far off if we think that is a good idea. Clearly Dodd & Frank do.
Meh, it's not as if there are a lot of omniscient geniuses to elect anyhow. Even the smart people who saw this train wreck coming were not able to change the meme, or paradigm, whatever you want to call it. That's history. Middling people muddling through and screwing up.
I propose a "Dawg-win's Rule" that states: any argument for or against a situation that uses any aspect of California as evidence should be found in violation of this rule.
No problem man. BTW, are you in Byzantium for the materials science trade show this week?
No sir - I was sent invites but passed. Someday I'm going but not this year... if a buddy is successful at starting a biz [he's trying to buy a small distressed firm now] then we'll be regulars - not until.
They're mostly leaving it to the senior mandarins like Timmah.
This is also us observing the end-game of a two-party monopoly owned by the same people. Democracy can only work if there's debate about issues that matter, which generally boil down to who is getting the loot.
The two parties in the US have elected people that win based on scaring the dumbasses. They are scaring them with the same stories for years: fornicating harlots, the-wild-male-5th-appendage, global-warming, THOSE PEOPLE, and THE OTHER PARTY. That's IT. NOTHING else matters. So, now we have politicians - who are NOT the sharpest tools in the shed to begin with - that were elected based on their ability to spew BS stories about nothing for 20 years. We can't expect a system like this to cope with anything like finance.
I propose a "Dawg-win's Rule" that states: any argument for or against a situation that uses any aspect of California as evidence should be found in violation of this rule.
Hilarious. So long as we can drop Fannie's ceiling back to $419,000 and refuse to bail out California's coming budget calamity like we did for the last, it's a deal.
I was thinking the same thing - that and if we are there then total [Austrian style] collapse can't be far off if we think that is a good idea.
I'm not sure if I'm creative enough to keep coming up with "... you might be in a Depression" jokes, but the point remains. When the economy is rendered inert that digging holes and filling in the holes seems to be a sane economic or political policy, what else could you call it? The government won't get out of the way because it hurts them. Big business (Banking) won't get out of the way because it hurts them. It seems like we really are left with options that mean breaking windows and replacing them or choosing to do nothing.
So long as we can drop Fannie's ceiling back to $419,000 and refuse to bail out California's coming budget calamity like we did for the last, it's a deal.
As I am self employed I need to make myself an employee. Pay all the costs of having an employee. Then lay myself off and collect EU.
But before that, I need to buy a house using the tax credit / downpayment.
Then when I am unemployed I can ask for a mod and use my unemployment benifits as income to get my payments lower. Maybe by then I can get a pricnipal reduction to match my lower income.
dryfly (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:56 pm
You working it?
Yeah. Then it's back to Secret Project for me as the deal goes down to the wire.
Observation for the year; having met well over 100 senior Chinese scientists in the last 3 days -- about 20-30% have a clear tailor's notch in their front teeth.
IMO, the only change that would matter is to decentralize power by shrinking the size of the Federal Loot Pile. The smart amoral scumbags WILL BE instinctively attracted to the largest pile of loot. More piles mean the smart amoral scum are more decentralized.
You can't regulate or control the smart amoral scumbags, so the ONLY defense possible is forcing them to fight with each other instead of allowing them to concentrate on BIG pile of loot (like we have now in DC).
Edit: decentralizing power is not realistically possible. The only realistic system possible is socialism or fascism. I was just dreamin' (above).
Certainly helping out the unemployed is a noble goal. And it's not hard to argue that it's a better use of taxpayer funds compared to the Home Buyer Tax Credit, bailouts to bankers, etc... However, that doesn't make it a good policy necessarily.
For one thing, it has to be paid for, so it is a benefit to some at a cost to others.
Also, it does have unintended side effects. For example, many folks (not saying most) will delay looking for work because they feel entitled to collect the unemployment insurance that they've paid into. If they don't outright delay the start of their job search, they will at a minimum approach the task with much less urgency. And so we have a less productive society as a result.
And then you have some folks who could find productive work at a lower wage (lower than they are accustomed to), but who delay taking such jobs as long as possible. After all, they wouldn't want to reduce their price on the market. Even if they have to drain their savings slowly by living off of an unemployment check that's inadequate to fund their lifestyle, many will do so. This only delays the required adjustment of wages, again at a cost to the taxpayer.
Of course there are some or most who don't fit these categories. But the point is that the cost of all these extensions goes beyond the monetary price tag of the incremental extensions.
just got in and haven't had the opportunity to read the entire threads, so apologies if anyone's posted this, but GMAC is coming back for seconds on the federal teat.
GMAC Asks for Fresh Lifeline - WSJ.com The U.S. government is likely to inject $2.8 billion to $5.6 billion of capital into the Detroit company, on top of the $12.5 billion that GMAC has received since December 2008, these people said. The latest infusion would come in the form of preferred stock. The government's 34% stake in the company could increase if existing shares eventually are converted into common equity.
The U.S. government is likely to inject $2.8 billion to $5.6 billion of capital into the Detroit company, on top of the $12.5 billion that GMAC has received since December 2008
For examples of just how much money you have to dump into government run motor co's just read up on the history of British Leyland and Renault. Once these govt. sponsored job creation schemes get going.. there's almost no stopping them...
~splat
Az unemployment is less than $1,000. a month. My plan won't work.
Move to Californ (redacted to avoid violating Dawg-win's rule) and you've got a fighting chance. Just pick somewhere like Humboldt where you can find a thriving commune to join.
For one thing, it has to be paid for, so it is a benefit to some at a cost to others.
Nah! We will keep it outside the budget , just like we did for the trillion dollar Iraq invasion. We will do exactly the same, we will just give another tax cut and the lifting economic tide will pay for everything.
Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 8:07 pm I think it's going to take some really bad behavior to end all this cronyism and fraud.
No, they'll just kill you or put you in jail forever if you try to stop them. They have plenty of bristle-headed thugs without the wits to do anything but follow orders, and the rabble will cheer because they're not smart enough to do otherwise.
Just chill out and wait for it. The central state will go prostrate momentarily, as nations measure moments. Then you'll be able to apply a remedy. For now, all you can do is watch the thieves empty out the coffers.
"Well, Tuesday is generally hottie night at the ol' health club. So, it's off to yoga for me. "
...LOL.......I must be old....It's a typical Tuesday nite....watch World's Biggest Loser while eating a big bowl of peach pie, ice cream and milk.......all compliments of and tree
But I am asking why they would stop a FTHB with good income from getting the credit but its ok for a move up buyer with good income to get the credit.
My ears are burning - my wife and I are FTHBs with a combined income around $170k, looking to buy a house in the $650k range. Even though we were not previously eligible for the credit, we consoled ourselves with the fact that most people looking to buy in our range aren't either.
And now we're still not eligible, but much of our competition is. This change makes us significantly less likely to buy in the near future.
What's up with the reverse Robin Hood? When did it become OK to take from renters and give to homeowners?
This expansion and extension of the tax credit is exactly the opposite of what everyone who believed in Dodd's and Frank's basic uprightness expected. When will we wake up and realize that these guys are just shoveling money into homeowners' and banks' pockets in return for re-election?
Speaking of history--
Time Mag Feb 13, 1933
While Congress continued to mumble & bumble over farm relief plans which cannot pass this session, big life insurance companies of the East last week held out helping hands to the debt-stricken West. From its headquarters at Newark, N. J. the largest single farm land creditor in the U. S., Prudential Insurance Co., announced it was suspending for an indefinite period foreclosures on its $209,000,000 worth of mortgages on 37,000 farms in the U. S. and Canada. Mutual Benefit Life Insurance Co. (Newark) followed suit by declaring it had ordered its Iowa agents to cease trying to collect $5,000,000 tied up in foreclosure suits in that State. President Frederick H. Ecker of Metropolitan Life (world's largest) revealed that for two years his organization had been foreclosing farm mortgages only "where the farmer is unwilling to carry on or try to do his part toward working out his problem." Other big life insurance companies which suspended foreclosures in Iowa: John Hancock, Aetna Life, Connecticut Mutual, Connecticut General, Phoenix Mutual.
I really wish I was going - it is usually a good show. The other one I wanted to go to was in Vegas in a week or so [automotive aftermarket] - just to walk the thing and see all the crazy people who show up. I swear half of those exhibitors are SOEs from China.
You think this isn't bad behavior?
Going, going , gone -Galt
Never Again II,
Ayn Rand had the key point all wrong. She thought that the business leaders were the lynchpin and would that they would CONsciously exit. The reality is those John Galts are the leeches. They would NEVER leave the system voluntarily. They take far more than they earn.
The U.S. was made great by squeezing eCONomic privilege from the system and expanding opportunities for all while also allowing huge success AND failure at the individual level. The John Galts Rand spoke of thrived on the privilege just like today's bankers and CEOs. Their wealth is largely derived from access to Government and the Fed.
If our middle class quits, it's over.
The free market is a tough place. Ayn Rand's John Galts are the likes of Goldman Sachs and GM. Good ridance.
The Uncommon Man wrote:
I've been waiting for this one. Finally my neighbor and I can trade houses. And both pocket $7300 in the process. Isn't this country great?
...before walking away.
If only there were enough houses above $73,000 in value in Detroit, there might be salvation for that damned city.
Ayn Rand had the key point all wrong. She thought that the business leaders were the lynchpin and would that they would CONsciously exit. The reality is those John Galts are the leeches. They would NEVER leave the system voluntarily. They take far more than they earn.
Everyone depends on everyone else, because everything is interconnected. If a shop owner waves his arms in Paraguay, there will be a hurricane in San Pedro.
The majority Party knows that 35% of the dumbass peasants will vote for them regardless. All they need is that last 15% to win. Same for the other guys. Each has about 35% solid dumbass support. The majority of the remaining 30% still think there's a difference between the two parties.
With regard to the banksters and other special interests it is Kang v. Kodos. It is 100% dumbasses. Well except for those who vote for none of the above, or not at all
o rly?
.
ya rly!
.
no wai!
so where is the ui extension?
Extend, pretend, offend.
Boy, that's fantastic. What a deal for move-up buyers, even ones making five times the median income in America. Awesome. I'm thrilled. Fortunately, the cratering of the real estate market from Asset Bubble N-1 will make the 5 year minimum easy to achieve for even the most hardened of flippers. I wonder if you have to successfully sell your current residence, or whether jingle mail is good enough.
Meanwhile, on the backwards side of the world...
HONG KONG -- Concerns about a growing bubble in Hong Kong's high-end property market pushed central bankers here to increase the required down payment on luxury homes to 40%, from the current 30%....
Hong Kong Acts to Prevent Bubble - WSJ.com
Clearly, someone hasn't learned the proper lessons from the last 25 years of economic history. Get with the program, China.
p.s. The thought of Obama vetoing the tax credit gives me room to smile, at least. Funny stuff.
never believed it was dead
never.
sorry, CR, your lobbying efforts failed. miserably (through no fault of your own).
Sometimes I think the speculation here is more accurate than the reported news. WTF
Rob Dawg wrote:
Security through obscurity.
Winning through ginning.
We get this extended before UI extensions? Awesome short-term thinking. $100,000 for each additional purchase. Score another one for team crony.
so the extension got packaged with the ue extension, and that way Obama can't veto it.
nice work by the majority party in COngress. Way to sell out any semblance of fiscal responsbility.
your voters are watching
I called it. I wish I had been wrong.
I know you guys hate this, but if it goes through, I'm putting the house on the market immediately, rather than waiting until spring. And if my thinking is like that of others, it might bring a lot of shadow inventory onto the market, so prices could drop faster than they might have done otherwise.
scone wrote:
You expect the Law of Unexpected Results to come to our rescue and speed up this process? Tease.
scone
you know what barney said. list it tomorrow.
This ain't 'bout the homes. This ain't 'bout the owning. This be 'bout the loans performing. Never lose sight of the intent.
this is about banks.
montas ankle wrote:
The majority Party knows that 35% of the dumbass peasants will vote for them regardless. All they need is that last 15% to win. Same for the other guys. Each has about 35% solid dumbass support. The majority of the remaining 30% still think there's a difference between the two parties.
Still waiting on the "jumbo conforming" limits (417K - up to 729K) to be extended. Those are supposed to expire at the end of the year, and are already causing confusion (lots of banks won't take 417+ apps now in case they don't close before 12/31).
I would expect that to be extended pretty soon as well.
At what point have we pulled demand so far forward that the extension is greeted with a yawn (like C4C)?
I seem to have misplaced my guillotine. Oh, there it is.
Rob Dawg wrote:
Seems like we are back on the topic of tight ends and wide receivers...
2010 is an election year. Anything to avoid an economic slowdown ahead of an election. This won't expire.
OT and Long but Barney's and Timmy's view of TBTF reform:
For Immediate Release: October 26, 2009
Financial Services Committee and Treasury Department Release Draft Legislation to Address Systemic Risk, “Too Big to Fail” Institutions
Washington, DC - Today, the House Financial Services Committee and the Treasury Department released draft legislation to address the issue of systemic risk and “too big to fail” financial institutions. The draft bill will:
Create a mechanism for monitoring and reducing the threats that systemically risky firms pose to the financial system.
Establish a process for winding down large, financially-troubled non-bank financial institutions in a way that protects American taxpayers and minimizes the impact on the financial system.
Overhaul and update our financial regulatory system.
A summary of the draft legislation can be viewed below; the full text can be viewed here.
Summary of the Financial Stability Improvement Act
The Financial Services Committee and the Obama Administration are committed to ensuring that the taxpayers are never again called upon to take responsibility for Wall Street’s business decisions. The bill creates a strong, inter-agency council to monitor and oversee stability of the financial system and address threats to that stability. The bill provides strengthened supervision for large, interconnected financial firms to prevent failure. A new resolution regime will ensure that firms that fail despite these measures will do so in a way that minimizes impacts on taxpayers, the health of the financial system and the overall economy.
Specifically, the draft legislation:
Creates the Financial Services Oversight Council to monitor systemic risks.
The Council will identify financial companies and financial activities that pose a threat to financial stability, and will subject those companies and activities to heightened prudential oversight, standards and regulation.
The Council will also subject systemically important financial market utilities and payment, clearing and settlement activities to heightened oversight, standards and regulation.
Harmonizes and consolidates holding company regulation so there is “no place to hide,” ensures communication and coordination among regulators and maintains clear lines of authority
Removes the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act’s restraints on the Fed’s authority over companies subject to consolidated regulation and provides specific authority to the Fed and other federal financial agencies to regulate for financial stability purposes and quickly address potential problems.
Puts safeguards on current ILC and other non-bank bank institutions and closes the ILC and other non-bank bank exemptions going forward; current non-bank banks, industrial loan companies, and similar companies that engage in commercial activities but are not currently subject to bank holding company regulation will not have to divest, but will have to restructure, creating a bank holding company to hold all financial activities, and will face limits on transactions between the bank holding company and any commercial affiliates. Going forward, no additional commercial companies will be allowed to own banks, ILCs or any other specialty bank charters.
Preserves the thrift charter for those thrifts dedicated to mortgage lending, but subjects thrift holding companies to supervision by the Fed to eliminate opportunities for regulatory arbitrage.
Subjects firms or activities that pose significant risks to the system to heightened, comprehensive scrutiny by Federal regulators.
Regulators’ inability to see developments outside their narrow “silos” allowed the current crisis to grow unchecked. The bill’s information gathering and sharing requirements for the Council and all of the financial regulators (including SEC and CFTC) will ensure constant communication and the ability to look across markets for potential risks.
Federal regulators will impose heightened standards through a variety of options tailored to the specific threat posed – there is no “one size fits all” approach.
The Fed will have back-up authority to step in if regulators do not act quickly to address developing problems identified by the Council.
Provides for the orderly wind-down of failing firms and ends “too big to fail” to ensure that industry and shareholders absorb the risks and costs of failure, not taxpayers.
Large, highly complex financial companies that fail will do so in an orderly and controlled manner, ensuring that shareholders and unsecured creditors bear the losses, not taxpayers, and the stability of the overall financial system is protected.
The FDIC will be able to unwind a failing firm so that existing contracts can be dealt with, creditors’ claims can be addressed, and parties required to bear losses do so. Unlike traditional bankruptcy, which does not account for complex interrelationships of such large firms and may endanger financial stability, this more flexible process will help prevent contagion and disruption to the entire system and the overall economy.
Costs to resolve a failing firm will be repaid first from the assets of the failed firm at the expense of shareholders and creditors, and to the extent of any shortfall, from assessments on all large financial firms. In this instance we follow the “polluter pays” model where the financial industry has to pay for their mistakes—not taxpayers.
Resolution Fund is structured to spread the cost over a broad range of financial companies with assets of $10 billion or more, and provides for a flexible repayment period to avoid potential procyclical effect of such assessments.
Provides new accountability for the Fed when it addresses short-term credit market disruptions in emergency situations.
Requires approval by the Treasury Secretary for the Fed to provide temporary liquidity assistance using section 13(3) of the Federal Reserve Act, and confines that assistance to generally available facilities.
Credit Risk Retention
Directs the federal banking regulators and the Securities and Exchange Commission to jointly write rules to require creditors to retain 10 percent or more, of the credit risk associated with any loans that are transferred or sold including for the purpose of securitization. Regulators can adjust the level of risk retention above or below 10 percent, but not lower than 5 percent. In the case of the securitization of assets that are not originated by creditors, the regulators will require the securitizer to retain the credit risk.
What is with the 5 year residency requirement? What they're after is churn...why not make it a 2 year requirement.
btw, not to be a prick or anything, but so much for all the backslapping among the bloggers who thought they had killed the FTHB tax credit through logical arguments.
they clearly don't understand how deep down the rabbit hole we have fallen. the corruption in our Fascist government is beyond what most people would believe.
scone wrote:
Might as well; you can always reject if you don't like the offers. Have you seen about someone "house sitting"? It'll probably save you some money on insurance if you think it's going to be awhile before you can sell-
I'm shocked that the amount of the gift was decreased. And I'm sure it's a "stated" residency of five years for the move up buyers. And as for Obama vetoing this, I'd have my doubts.
I'm completely and utterly terrified, actually. Most of my zip code is "move up" housing, and I can only imagine the number of homes that have not been on the market because of the economy. I can see 20 -30 more homes coming on the MLS, at least.
There is a minimum 5 year residency
Whew, it's merely residency and not payment.
If they expand this credit, I might do my patriotic duty. Buy a house and never make a payment. Let THEM eat cake.
Cheap Skates! Live it up. It ain't like it's your money.
It's not how much each additional home purchase costs. It's how much is this in BBB? (banker bonus bucks)
I never expected to have an impact. I worked hard against DAPs many years ago - with no luck too.
The only reason I argued against this tax credit was because it was obviously bad policy. Now I have two failures to point to when people ask me to advocate for a position. So back to our normal programming ...
best wishes
dr munch wrote:
That part actually is quite strange, particularly since we're looking at higher housing prices for the $250k income crowd. I wonder if some congressional aide forgot to carry a 2 somewhere. That of course makes this no less outrageous on principle alone, but it will make it less efficacious at getting Asset Bubble N+1 firing.
"Buy a house and never make a payment. "
it is the right thing to do, given the circumstances.
make sure you run up the cc debt as well. might as well go all in.
Only two?
Gee, pretty much everything I'm in favor of does not pass, and everything I'm not in favor of, does.
So I'd say if you only have 2 position failures, you're doing pretty well.
If we get the government that we deserve, we must have done something pretty awful.
Here's my contribution to today's levity.
I thought I'd seen it all but this one's really over the top...
Hi,
We are looking for a strong project manager for a microsoft project for the next 3 days.** Please accept our appology if this is not what you want to consider.
The project is located in Sammamish, WA. The client needs a strong PM to run triage, take notes, update triage blog and follow up on open items. It would be beneficial if the candidate has some microsoft experience.
If you are interested, please forward your updated resume and rate requirement.
BTW, if this really does temporarily push prices back up, it may be a good time to sell and rent for a while, knowing that when the drugs are gone, the patient is gonna crash.
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Most people aren't going to take the chance and ruin their good credit-rating. The opportunities are limited unless one is willing to become an uber-risk taker.
Funny, the tone of CR's comment matches exactly what I was just about to post....namely:
I feel like calling my Congressmen to express how strongly I oppose this bad policy. But why bother, as they have ignored my numerous calls about the bank bailout, and other bad policy decisions along the way.
I agree with the rising sentiment that we are living in a fascist state best described as an oligarchy/corporatocracy.
Just in time for the gov't to get out of the mortgage business.
Anybody still have the link to the influential blog polling?
" There is a minimum 5 year residency requirement in their current home for move-up home buyers."
So you don't have to stay in the new home 5 years and this locks out buyers since 2005 right ?
broward wrote:
Let me distill this.
"American with experience required to rescue failing project before grunt work redispatched to India. SEND HELP QUICK PLZ."
I was recently contacted by a consultant from Bangladesh who was trying to implement something for the University of Vermont. Part of the project specification included open source technology I work on. The consultant couldn't even understand what the technology was for, much less how to implement it or integrate it with the project. He went away after I refused to meet his demands of talking to him during the Bangladeshi business day.
Didn't really think that logic had any power over the political card trading here but I'll admit that the economics are just so horrible that I didn't think they would go with it. CR and others have done the math and it made no sense but like you point out, logic is out the window and we are in Wonderland. Nothing would surprise me at this point. The biggest surprise is the lack of reform to come out of D.C. Weren't we scraping bottom in March? So much for remembering our lesson.
The fact that they are expanding this, not only extending it is amazing. But Rob Dawg is right. This is just another form of extend and pretend. So what if a $600,000 mortgage is now in default. Put that sucker in HAMP and who cares if the bank takes in $1,500 a month. They can still claim that face value amount. Yet at some point, something will have to give.
It's just dollars. They might as well give it away before the damn things are worthless.
sm_landlord wrote:
It only looks awful if you've got morals. Otherwise, just a government of amoral-scuminess; as "the people" have voted for.
If they need to pass this awful tax credit bill, then clearly housing is still really bad.
I just got off the phone to my contractor. He's really happy about this, since his business is so slow. He was one of the few builders who used his own crew, employees rather than subs. He's had to let them all go. It's sad, because he is a high-quality custom builder and got screwed, like a lot of tradespeople.
Severely flawed policy aside, no logic of course to have a $150K limit on first-time buyers and $250K on move-up buyers
Dr. Housing Bubble Blog:
Didn't really think that logic had any power over the political card trading here but I'll admit that the economics are just so horrible that I didn't think they would go with it.
You think that policy in America has any relation to reality! What a knee-slapper.
3 days?
There's not even any point to the job.
You can't even find the coffee pot and office supply cabinent in 3 days.
It's just madness.
Soylent Roomba is People.
broward - I can fake my way thru that job for 3 days, surely. (After all, what are they going to do - fire me?) And they'll pay me?
I'll take it, if you don't want it.
Yeah, it's no fun trying to work with someone in another hemisphere. South Asia is essentially 12 hrs out of sync with the USA, so having an actual conversation with your counterpart invoives one of you coming into the office early, and the other staying late.
Perhaps it was poorly worded and they are only looking to hire someone within 3 days for a longer term position.
OT: Xerox hopes to print computing smarts on fabric, plastic | Deep Tech - CNET News
The magic substance is silver ink. (disclosure: long silver)
on topic: I am not surprised the tax credit was extended, I am surprised it was expanded.
Wow, so they went from spurring demand which is now soaked, to spurring supply? Clearly this is a gift to RE agents and loan pushers. I guess propping up housing prices isn't their main goal after all. Get ready for an over-correction, folks. Prices are about to drop below the floor.
Are you Experienced? This 'bubble' chart will blow your mind.
'We see the astonishingly rapid growth of the securities sector relative to the other sectors of the economy'.
pg 4 - 'Chart Growth of Assets of 4 sectors(Security Broker Dealers, Commercial banks, non-financial Corporate, Households)
Look at how security broker 'assets' (securitization) takes off after November 1999 when the Glass Steagall Act(1933) was repealed by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Straight up to the Moon. Then down some after 2006 when the 'Bust' started...
http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr382.pdf
broward wrote:
I think it's clear they expect to be able to salvage the overall direction and architecture quickly before getting cheap people to do the actual work. Depending on the project, that may not be unreasonable. Who knows. They probably don't.
A CIO of a major R1 University who's a close friend of mine recently confided, "We view cloud computing as promising only because it's an excellent stalking horse for outsourcing." As one of the only young innovators left in our increasingly emaciated computer research world, it was like fingernails on a chalkboard.
If we can get over our fetish for pretty facilities and a good basketball team, educational costs will come down fast in America. Everything else is going fast.
Oh, the dirt on Stanford and MIT...
Short intel ?
I find the extension of Unemployment benefits just as amazing.
we are at almost 2 years of pogey payments at the max?
All this money being thrown at all our economic problems really seems to be an attempt to keep the lid on a boiling pot. Ain't gonna work and when it finally boils over virtually everybody in this country is going to get burned severely. Until we see massive job growth and rising wages nothing will change. And THAT ain't gonna happen either. We REALLY are fucked. I'm ready for a military coup or a giant meteorite strike on DC. Only the unthinkable can save us now and it better happen quick.
Bloomberg "The credit would be limited to homes costing $800,000 or less."
Good news since the median home price for the U.S. comes in at $170,000. That $7,290 cap does little for the mid-tier homes here in California that are anchored to Alt-A and option ARMs.
Remember the movie Brewster's Millions? He had to spend $30 million in 3 days.
Maybe there's something going on here govt.-wise we don't realize.
It also gives money to contractors, painters, plumbers, electricians, landscapers, and house cleaners.
really? um, I think we all know this
oh, and passing it makes it worse!
ghostfaceinvestah (profile) wrote on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 6:47 pm
I find the extension of Unemployment benefits just as amazing.
we are at almost 2 years of pogey payments at the max?
Well they're never going to find jobs, so they have to do something with them.
Did they raise the debt ceiling yet? I might have been working and missed the memo.
Extending jobless benefits clears Senate hurdle - MarketWatch
"If the bill is approved by both chambers on Capitol Hill and is signed by the president, those who cannot find work would be eligible for a maximum of 99 weeks of benefits."
why not make it an even 100? crazy.
At what point do unemployment extensions become nothing more than welfare?
sporkfed wrote:
I don't think so. This new tech won't support the density of desktop/notebook processors, but it will enable all kinds of interesting applications. Smart clothes, foldable screens, color-changing objects, maybe sixth sense types of awareness.
do you have to sell your existing home as a "move up buyer".
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of houses in the 850k and up range suddenly went to 799k. Which would make the existing 799k houses look like less of a good deal, causing a price drop, and so on and so forth. It may be just the opposite of the feeding frenzy that happened with first-time buyers.
"At what point do unemployment extensions become nothing more than welfare? "
100 weeks?
I expected this to be increased to 15k. Kind of middle of the road. Not as good as I had hoped, not as bad as some were calling for.
Not enough to allow more than a slow fall apart IMO.
I'm trying to figure out the logic for capping the buyers incomes who are eligible for FTHB credit below that of the move up crowd.
Any help?
Another Subsidy that can't be killed.
What stops a "move up buyer" from buying a house and walking away from the old one?
A friend signs a lease for the old house to cover the mortgage, then skips after escrow closes on the buyers new house.
I see too many ways to scam this deal.
ndk wrote:
Same in corporate-land. Like all future jobs in the US, the only viable job will be one that is somehow physically related to something that can't be moved out of the country. There will be less and less jobs for the average introverted semi-autistic males that inhabit much of IT society. I guess they'll start building meth-labs now too.
It's a policy.
This is just absurd, but thanks for the second chance to sell my home and get get out of dodge.
Now, can we get Clunkers Jr.?
How about 104 weeks...two full years
$250,000.00 of income will get you a $750,000.00 house.
Top end of FHA.
Charles Kiting wrote:
+1
Any help? - ED
Logic has nothing to do with it. It's just jolting the system, which at the moment is flatlined. You have to remember, about 60% of the economy was tied to FIRE in some way. That's a lot of irate phone calls to Congresscritters. They have to be seen to "do something, even if it's wrong" as my father used to say.
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
When the majority of the population despises the UE. Another year should do it.
GET A JOB YOU LAZY BUMS, I WORK FOR A LIVING, I'M NOT LIVIN ON WELFARE.
Are the median income statistics really accurate? Because it would be good for morale if the majority of the population thought that they were getting WAY more than the median income.
And those stats would be easy to whitewash. Just a thought....
I really don't get that myself. Not as dumb as the overall package, just contradictory. But I'm having to control myself from laughing to death over the fact that MOVE-UP buyers are included. They really want to spur supply? How retarded are they?
Hey, relax everyone! The $8k/$7k doesn't mean a whole lot for expensive locations, but for places with $80,000 - $150,000 homes (flyover land), this is great. It's just an attempt to let places like Kansas and North Dakota get as expensive and bubbly as Florida and California.
Why should the coasts have all the fun?
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Nothing about linking this to the home buyer tax credit! Separate bills?
"The legislation, also being considered by leaders in the House, may be attached to a bill extending unemployment benefits that may be debated as early as this week, according to Regan Lachapelle, an aide to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. "
just in case BHO thinks about a veto.
Mr Slippery wrote:
Gawd, i hope i'm dead first.
josap wrote:
But I am asking why they would stop a FTHB with good income from getting the credit but its ok for a move up buyer with good income to get the credit.
It doesn't make any sense.
"But I am asking why they would stop a FTHB with good income from getting the credit but its ok for a move up buyer with good income to get the credit.
It doesn't make any sense. "
You expect it to make sense?
Extend, pretend, offend.
lol!
klarek wrote:
Let me count the ways.
This be politics....u want sense, too???
Does that make less sense than adding move-up buyers? I might drown from the tears as I'm laughing so hard at that. To promote an oversupply after they purged the demand is so funny.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
Our outsourcing isn't so much to Bangladesh -- though that is a part of it -- as it is to Google, Microsoft Live, Facebook, Yahoo, Salesforce, etc. They offer a free alternative to hiring people for infrastructure so long as you're comfortable allowing them to own and search all your data.
Most modern bean-counting CIO's are quite happy to sell out the privacy and academic freedoms of their faculty and students. Indeed, the Chronicle of Higher Ed even wondered if Google Wave will replace institutional learning systems completely.
Wired Campus - The Chronicle of Higher Education
Strangely, Europe and China are having none of these problems, and maintain strong universities. Wonder what their problem is.
But my experience as a semi-autistic nerdy male is that we'll end up playing Warcraft and painting Warhammer miniatures in between Super Smash Bros. parties.
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Normally, even with pretty insane things, I can make heads or tails of how people got to from A to B. I just can't with this one. I'm trying to see it from every angle and can't figure out why they would do it.
Effective Demand wrote:
They needed to move the smaller, less expensive houses first?
They wanted to look like they were doing something for the little people?
Younger people haven't had time to trash their credit?
I really don't know. It just probably sounded good. Giving the credit to the "not wealthy".
Public anger needs to be 'moderated' and 'subdued'...
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
Dude, I thought you worked for a zombie bank, just like I work for zombie academia. I'd love to feel like I had a damn chance at fighting these trends, but I don't. I'm just glad my welfare payment is greater than that of the other peasants, and look forward to the day the entire edifice crashes down so we can really work and really make the world a better place.
Dead Shtick wrote:
$8,000 cash back on your starter meth lab?
josap wrote:
Still doesn't make sense. The ONLY thing I can come up with is they want to limit certain peoples purchasing power. So that people with equity aren't competing with those with cash... but the universe it would effect is so small and wouldn't be a deteriment (imho) to those FTHB with the cash. It just seems like a blank 125k/250k income cap would make much more sense.
Postpone D-Day with extensions and get some main St. relief in advance for the failing or bailout 2 of some of theTBTF(minus the last Bank standing)...
glad they did this because Goldman Sachs yesterday said they that housing had found a "false bottom" I'm sure
won't benefit from this at all but they would agree it was necessary.
Goldman Sees ‘False Bottom,’ Merrill Sees ‘Treat’ (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Worst case analysis, not only is this going to drive a lot of inventory onto the market, it's going to kill demand just as the last wave of option ARM foreclosures floods in, about 2011. (IIRC) Which implies a big load of dead banks about that time, too. So there's a cascade effect that lands on the taxpayer regardless, which could kill any recovery and inaugurate the new Depression.
ndk wrote:
Ahhh, interesting. We're still stuck with outsourcing to employees (pesky auditors). I guess our senior-leaders haven't been able to get around the resistance of just making all our account data public to google (like) companies and outsourcing to them. Hmmm, perhaps they just haven't thought of that, yet....
And like magic ...
Extending unemployment benefits clears Senate vote - MarketWatch
14 weeks plus 6 weeks for hard hit states. That is another 20 weeks of extended benefits.
best to all
CR - Will these benfits be in USDs or Yaun?
Did anyone ever follow up and make sure Turbo Timmay actually paid his back taxes. GRRRRR!
This crap makes my blood boil.
In other news, sales at S&P 500 companies were down $1.48 trillion over the previous 12 months through September.
We need more debt damnit!
Hu's unemployment benefits are we talking about?
CalculatedRisk wrote:
Did you see the featured reader response to that story?
"I'll have to call my friend and tell him his vacation was just extended for another 20 weeks. Now I will never beat him at golf with all the practice he gets."
14 weeks plus 6 weeks for hard hit states. That is another 20 weeks of extended benefits
So the people getting ponies are homebuyers and the unemployed. Renters with a job get the shaft. I hope no one here fits that profile.
This is magnificent in many ways. They are limiting demand by keeping all the checks in place that were there before for income, but spurring supply by essentially bribing people to sell their houses. My mind is in a whirlwind. On one hand, I can't wait to see the devastation. On the other, I think this has to be a practical joke. It's just impossible. They went from "prop the housing bubble" to "let's make it worth nothing". Of course that's inconsequential to evil groups like NAR that simply want transactions. That's all this is about.
ndk wrote:
I do work for a zombie bank.
But, I try to maintain my level of self-delusional superiority by finding other peasants to despise. Keeps me in-touch with my old college Young Republican daze. Kinda like the oldsters on medicare health-care welfare complaining about others joining in on the fun.
poic wrote:
Hu cares?
The asset inflation game is killing us. You'd think people would learn.
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
It must be nice. I wish I could easily integrate into a zombie organization. Unfortunately, I do horribly in zombie organizations and have had to find refuge in the chaos that is helping people to destroy each other's families. Occasionally, I have to watch home-made adult videos for research purposes.
Someone must think that poeple who bought 5 years ago have equity, or that they never got a 2nd or a HELOC.
House prices here are at 1999 / 2000 levels. Almost no one has equity.
I wonder, how much impact these measures (extend unemployment, and more of "Uncle Sam buys everyone a new house") will have on the budget deficit? Throw in the $250 payment increase to Social Security recipients, and we must be talking an additional $100B hit to the budget, no?
Will it send the dollar lower still? Seems like TPTB just won't tolerate the dollar strengthening, like it did the past couple days.
Angry Saver wrote:
Na... Anything bad that happens over 4 or 5 weeks ago is lost in a haze of optimism. It's how humanity survives (and people stay married).
woot! Looks like I told my clients the right thing after all...party on...it's like 1999 dude!~
sm_landlord wrote:
I registered just to +1 that comment. 87-13 on the vote. I'd be a lot more bitter about the extension half of the enslavement of the populace if my organization weren't also getting Federal Money funneled through a variety of agencies. This comrade instead just kisses polished boots in thanks.
"poic wrote:
Hu's unemployment benefits are we talking about?
Hu cares?"
Yu should. Wei all should.
ROFLOL. There is definitely some of that ... but I feel for most of these people. They are not only out of work, but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
best wishes
NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:15 pm
But, I try to maintain my level of self-delusional superiority by finding other peasants to despise. Keeps me in-touch with my old college Young Republican daze.
Why be a semi-autistic male when you can be a racist Nixon-rehabilitator? You'd have to stack ten antisocial otaku glomp-artists on one-another's shoulders to make a pile of shit as high as a Young Republican.
Cool. I don't actually have to find another job until 2011.
poic wrote:
Wei? Yu worried about getting shanghai'd over your US debts?
ndk wrote:
Oh be still my disdain o'er Higher Ed. Nothing gets me revved up more than academics and/or their support staff complaining about people mooching off of the USG dole...
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
Wow. Just wow. There is so much WIN in that one phrase that I don't even know where to start.
.
And since I know plenty of YRs who were CRs, all I can say is that I never thought piling antisocial yellow-fever otakus in comparison against them...
yagij wrote:
I admit, it IS a very tough job. But, if there weren't people like me ,working diligently throughout Merica's glorious zombie corporations, our entire way of life would end.
(Queue: patriotic music. Slow motion eagle)
barfly,
Thanks for the good reply / summary of the original FTHB in the last thread
but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
Well, at least they can work in the financial industry. You don't need any skills to speak of. All it takes is a permanently bullish outlook. Plus, you actually get paid extra when you do a bad job. What could be better than that?
"yagij (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 4:20 pm
reply ignore user
poic wrote:
Yu should. Wei all should.
Wei? Yu worried about getting shanghai'd over your US debts?"
my global tshtf plan
Other passport? Check
Asian wife? Check
Indian friends? Check
Copious amounts of cynicism? Check
lol
They went from "prop the housing bubble" to "let's make it worth nothing". Of course that's inconsequential to evil groups like NAR that simply want transactions. - K
It also gooses worker mobility and inter-state migration. Which also generates spending in hotels, U-haul, corporate, etc. And possibly some major demographic shifts in the states. That could affect the states' revenues pretty drastically.
I don't get why there is a higher income cap on move-up buyers, than there is for a first time buyer. What incentive/disincentive is that supposed to provide?
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
I salute you, Company Computer Guy (Bud Light: Real Men of Genius)
yagij wrote:
Fortunately, virtually everyone left in higher ed fully embraces large government and all the personal benefits it brings us today.
It was even funnier when a national lab came knocking on my door about a year ago. They were impressed by my research publications, but I had reservations about working in that kind of a stultified environment. I mean, I'm used to zombie -- but mummy? The leap from strychnine to gauze was more than I was prepared to make.
Fortunately, the entire conversation became moot after they dropped me like a flaming bag of MBS when they found out I don't have a Ph.D. to tack on their wall to impress the Politburo.
CalculatedRisk (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:19 pm
ROFLOL. There is definitely some of that ... but I feel for most of these people. They are not only out of work, but there skills have to be rusty after almost 2 years!
Too true. There really isn't going to be a winner in the competition between new college grads and rusty old hands when the economy does start to genuinely revive. It's going to bid down wages and leave significant segments of both cohorts effectively unemployable due to 5+ years without a job in their field. It's fun to be cruel, but there's going to be a lasting legacy of structurally unemployable individuals that's worth keeping in mind -- it may increase the latent unemployment at the "full employment" level markedly for a decade or two after this.
poic wrote:
Not to offend, but an "asian wife" is only good in specific locales. Roaming the subways of Nagoya with a lass from Vietnam wouldn't give me that much comfort...
Oh, this gives the owners who short sale a way to buy a new house. Very smart thinking.
As people have no money when they do a short sale or are forclosed on, the tax credit / down payment will get them into another house. That works, a second chance to lose your house, just like the people trying to get a loan mod. Perfect thinking.
scone, you just gave me a good handle idea:
"demographic shits"
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
LOL - thanks Byz - I needed that.
those 3 semesters of graduate chem are gonna come in handy.
It's just dollars. They might as well give it away before the damn things are worthless.
Hey... Why do these new dollar bills also give me 15% off at my local Subway or KFC?
ndk wrote:
Glad to see that they kept their eyes on the prize. Only another reason that I look forward to the Higher Ed.
popping. If only I live long enough to see that day. It will be like my personal crumpling of the Academic Ivory Watchtower wall, and I will do anything to buy a piece of it.
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
If, and that is a big IF, you can sell your house - you can use the credit for your down payment. You can sell your house and get nothing and buy another house. Maybe?
rosethorn wrote:
Or both just never going home.
To avoid rewarding flippers?
So what euphamism is being attached to this bill ?
"No banker or RE agent left behind" ?
yagij wrote:
If yer not running a scam - or participating in one - there's "No work for YOU". For at least 20 years, the only way to make good money was being part of a scam. IT itself is a big scam, but run primarily by the less-introverted geeks, who moved up from incompetent technician to IT management. IT management then scams the hapless non-IT management.
Marketing is scamming the customers, senior management is scammin’ the stockholders; huge corporation are just conduits for scammed loot. Works for me.
This thing was not designed, it was compromised into existence. Just like a city council or county commissioners.
dryfly wrote:
Or working from home, which more and more programmers are doing.
Who needs to go sit in a tiny cube when you can work from home?
Yagij,
you'd be amazed. When we went to Vietnam a lot of locals thought my Chinese wife was a local. Same thing happened in Thailand. I'm sure it wouldn't happen in Japan though.
I think we should call it the "asset" beautification bill.
Our country runs on faith, trust and fairy dust...my belief in the first two equals the reality of the third.
Extend and pretend is the mantra but eventually pretending becomes psychotic if you continue to ignore the facts of our economy. What is the hope the government wants to promote without rebuilding the fundamentals of a healthy economy? Has the entire raison d'etre of our system to be reelected and grant looting rights to your supporters? How flawed have we become as a people to continue "go along to get along"?
Everything has a fail point. Our leadership has become the guy who hands his buddy his beer and says, " Hey, watch this."
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
I heard a soundbite by Ice-T (or Ice Cube) on a radio show that has stuck with me for years: "Everyone needs a lil' hustle in their game to survive."
......every week there's a new crap program passing thru the populace like a disease. This one's the degenerate FedGov H2C2 disease du jour........
yagij wrote:
HA!! so true. And the dumbasses (like I used to be) think "hustle" means givin' that 110%. Live and learn, I guess.
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Time to call it what it is - welfare, dole, assistance, whatever - and get over it. We aren't going to let people starve in the streets in mass numbers - in the end we'll at least make it able for them to buy cheap liquor & sleep it off in a slum dwelling [or mobile home if rural]... we are compassionate, remember.
ndk wrote:
Mad network skilz needed for those weekend long floating LAN parties...which I guess would just be longer now...
I have already stolen and texted two quotes from this. Well said.
poic wrote:
Nope, it wouldn't. Also, knowledge of the locale and natives is just as important.
.
I knew of a guy who could easily get into the "gentlemen's clubs" in the shady backstreets of Japan because his Inuit traits helped him blend in. The important part was keeping his mouth closed--have his friends cover for him--to make it work. As gaijin, I never had that ability... err, I mean if I ever wanted to get in there...
ndk wrote:
Working capital!
yagij wrote:
Hustle & Flow (2005)
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Money burns so cities don't have to.
nar
just one of the meanings
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
There is a reason they say, "Work smarter, not harder". It is just that many of us had to learn the Puritan work ethic wasn't the "smarter" way to do it.
dryfly wrote:
You sound like the Joker from Batman
The entire system is twisted. The system can't tolerate affordable housing despite the fact that we have 19 million vacant homes! We're impoverishing ourselves with debt to ensure that the majority overpays for housing in order to preserve the value of bad debt. It's unbelievable.
All so faux wealth can be preserved. Enjoy your "wealth" Warren Buffett et. al.
dryfly wrote:
That doesn't always work. Sometimes you get both.
sm_landlord wrote:
Ya that works well - like 24hr on call all the time. Our future.
What do you mean you had to take a crap... didn't ya bring your cellphone, don't ya have wireless?
CR - this article on the likely S&P downgrade of the mortgage insurers ( MarketWatch.com reminded me that there were concerns expressed a few months back that the inability to obtain mortage insurance may seriously impact the ability to get loans with less than 20% down - any further thoughts on the matter?
ah ha
so congress doesnt believe in the recovery either!
Mr Slippery wrote:
I watched that movie, and I must admit that I liked it much more than I expected. However, I do think that there is a subtle difference between the hustle and the scam. I'll have to think about it some more.
Externalized Costs wrote:
I'm afraid it's been that way for some time now. It's just becoming more blatant now, and happening in bigger chunks.
sm_landlord wrote:
I guess that's double good - can hire folks to rebuild the cities - burn the money twice.
Terry wrote:
Good question, worth repeating just to make sure it is seen / pondered
The working class will be shown what fools they are. Revolt, quit working.
dryfly wrote:
I've been "on call" one way or another for my entire career. It's not new to me.
People who work at home generally learn to manage their time. Or they go back to the cube farm.
dryfly wrote:
When the Broken Glass Fallacy actually works in your macro-economy, you might be in a Depression.
yagij wrote:
And, of course, your brain has to be able to scam too. I can't. Somebody posted something on here a few days ago that said (something like): I couldn't sell water to a man that had his hair on fire.
And, not all selling is scamming. I tend to be a bit over-the-top cynical. Most people are just trying to work, eat, be comfortable, and then die.
you know what's kind of funny?
USA increasing unemployment benefits, while Germany is looking more to limit theirs
dryfly (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:30 pm
***LOL - thanks Byz - I needed that. ***
No problem man. BTW, are you in Byzantium for the materials science trade show this week?
...so congress doesnt believe in the recovery either! - g
I don't think they have any idea what may happen. Everything they've done so far has been reactive, indicative of short-term thinking. And most of them are lawyers, not econ types. So their instinct is to stop the phones ringing first, and deal with the consequences later. By which time, they will have done enough spin control to enable them to get re-elected.
Yagij,
I know an American who married a Japanese woman and lived there. They had a lot of problems, hard to rent a place, cabs not stopping for them etc... Its not just the us that has these sorts of problems.
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
Germany's benefits have been heavenly compared to the US's benefits (all the way around). Maybe a global rebalancing of social welfare?
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
An incentive to expand the waste of money, I mean program, when it comes up in April.
The whole world wants to get rich the way America did. The thing is, we got rich exploiting the rest of the world.
I can't wait to see how this all ends. It makes for some great heckling.
I do not know how much the UE will cost, but estimating for 1m households @ $750/week for 20 weeks, costs 15b$ . Am I right? Heck the GS bonus pool is bigger than that, isn't it? And that is taxpayers money as well, one way or another. And remember many of these unemployed people rent and do not receive the mortgage deduction you rich fat homeowner f*ckers receive from uncle for ever. So enough with the holier than thou crap! These people need to eat.
oh poor us!
poic wrote:
Oh the stories of xenophobia (what we call in America "racism") I can tell! Every non-western hotel in which I stayed, I'm sure they burned everything they could to do away with the horrible (perceived?) stench that my presence left.
scone (profile) wrote on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:46 pm
I don't think they have any idea what may happen. Everything they've done so far has been reactive, indicative of short-term thinking.
Agreed completely with Scone. Everything I've seen so far seems to indicate Congress doesn't have the slightest grasp as an institution what's going on. A few individuals might be clueful they aren't acting in a way that portrays them to be aware as a group of the shape or scope of the crisis. They're mostly leaving it to the senior mandarins like Timmah.
The Fed's true job is to preserve the value of credit that banks issue. This applies even if the credit is based on fraud.
What a system.
digalert wrote:
See, this is ridiculous. If you work for the right organization, revolting and quitting working have nothing to do with each other. Sloth is part of the job description.
For example, Cal State University has unionized staff. Some of the ones with which I've worked will put in 4 hour days that are dedicated to literally refusing to do anything, simultaneously blocking forward progress on major projects. They can do this because "merit pay" is at most something like 2% of their annual compensation, and it's basically impossible to fire anyone. Even if you try to work, you can't accomplish anything.
Then CSU awarded a $200,000,000 contract to Oracle through executive corruption exposed by a state legislature that did absolutely nothing about it afterwards.
Caaaliforniaa...
sm_landlord wrote:
Me too - most folks are NOT into it... especially taking calls at 3 AM Monday morning... and they HAVE to answer. Been there - know others there right now [critical engineering support for a factory in rural China - he doesn't have the option of a cube or home... its rural China cube or home]... not for everyone nor should it be.
yagij wrote:
I was thinking the same thing - that and if we are there then total [Austrian style] collapse can't be far off if we think that is a good idea. Clearly Dodd & Frank do.
oh poor us! - g
Meh, it's not as if there are a lot of omniscient geniuses to elect anyhow. Even the smart people who saw this train wreck coming were not able to change the meme, or paradigm, whatever you want to call it. That's history. Middling people muddling through and screwing up.
ndk wrote:
I propose a "Dawg-win's Rule" that states: any argument for or against a situation that uses any aspect of California as evidence should be found in violation of this rule.
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
No sir - I was sent invites but passed. Someday I'm going but not this year... if a buddy is successful at starting a biz [he's trying to buy a small distressed firm now] then we'll be regulars - not until.
You working it?
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
This is also us observing the end-game of a two-party monopoly owned by the same people. Democracy can only work if there's debate about issues that matter, which generally boil down to who is getting the loot.
The two parties in the US have elected people that win based on scaring the dumbasses. They are scaring them with the same stories for years: fornicating harlots, the-wild-male-5th-appendage, global-warming, THOSE PEOPLE, and THE OTHER PARTY. That's IT. NOTHING else matters. So, now we have politicians - who are NOT the sharpest tools in the shed to begin with - that were elected based on their ability to spew BS stories about nothing for 20 years. We can't expect a system like this to cope with anything like finance.
yagij wrote:
Hilarious. So long as we can drop Fannie's ceiling back to $419,000 and refuse to bail out California's coming budget calamity like we did for the last, it's a deal.
750/week? Where does one get that?
It's time to change the system. Audit the fed, expose the corruption and then end the fed.
dryfly wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm creative enough to keep coming up with "... you might be in a Depression" jokes, but the point remains. When the economy is rendered inert that digging holes and filling in the holes seems to be a sane economic or political policy, what else could you call it? The government won't get out of the way because it hurts them. Big business (Banking) won't get out of the way because it hurts them. It seems like we really are left with options that mean breaking windows and replacing them or choosing to do nothing.
Angry Saver,
Exposing the corruption isn't necessary. Getting people to care is the problem.
ndk wrote:
Dawg-win violation.
Unemployment Benefits Comparison by State | File Unemployment
yancy ward not many if any.
I need a new plan.
As I am self employed I need to make myself an employee. Pay all the costs of having an employee. Then lay myself off and collect EU.
But before that, I need to buy a house using the tax credit / downpayment.
Then when I am unemployed I can ask for a mod and use my unemployment benifits as income to get my payments lower. Maybe by then I can get a pricnipal reduction to match my lower income.
snark off///
Yancey Ward (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 4:58 pm
750/week? Where does one get that?
Nowhere , probably half of that . But again millions of incremental jobs will not be created in 20 weeks.
dryfly (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 7:56 pm
You working it?
Yeah. Then it's back to Secret Project for me as the deal goes down to the wire.
Observation for the year; having met well over 100 senior Chinese scientists in the last 3 days -- about 20-30% have a clear tailor's notch in their front teeth.
Exposing the corruption isn't necessary. Getting people to care is the problem.
yancey,
Good point. But I still think many believe the Fed is acting in their (the majority's) interests. The Fed exists to enure the value of bank credit.
Angry Saver wrote:
IMO, the only change that would matter is to decentralize power by shrinking the size of the Federal Loot Pile. The smart amoral scumbags WILL BE instinctively attracted to the largest pile of loot. More piles mean the smart amoral scum are more decentralized.
You can't regulate or control the smart amoral scumbags, so the ONLY defense possible is forcing them to fight with each other instead of allowing them to concentrate on BIG pile of loot (like we have now in DC).
Edit: decentralizing power is not realistically possible. The only realistic system possible is socialism or fascism. I was just dreamin' (above).
SNAFU,
Certainly helping out the unemployed is a noble goal. And it's not hard to argue that it's a better use of taxpayer funds compared to the Home Buyer Tax Credit, bailouts to bankers, etc... However, that doesn't make it a good policy necessarily.
For one thing, it has to be paid for, so it is a benefit to some at a cost to others.
Also, it does have unintended side effects. For example, many folks (not saying most) will delay looking for work because they feel entitled to collect the unemployment insurance that they've paid into. If they don't outright delay the start of their job search, they will at a minimum approach the task with much less urgency. And so we have a less productive society as a result.
And then you have some folks who could find productive work at a lower wage (lower than they are accustomed to), but who delay taking such jobs as long as possible. After all, they wouldn't want to reduce their price on the market. Even if they have to drain their savings slowly by living off of an unemployment check that's inadequate to fund their lifestyle, many will do so. This only delays the required adjustment of wages, again at a cost to the taxpayer.
Of course there are some or most who don't fit these categories. But the point is that the cost of all these extensions goes beyond the monetary price tag of the incremental extensions.
just got in and haven't had the opportunity to read the entire threads, so apologies if anyone's posted this, but GMAC is coming back for seconds on the federal teat.
GMAC Asks for Fresh Lifeline - WSJ.com
The U.S. government is likely to inject $2.8 billion to $5.6 billion of capital into the Detroit company, on top of the $12.5 billion that GMAC has received since December 2008, these people said. The latest infusion would come in the form of preferred stock. The government's 34% stake in the company could increase if existing shares eventually are converted into common equity.
I think it's going to take some really bad behavior to end all this cronyism and fraud.
Az unemployment is less than $1,000. a month. My plan won't work.
More Happy is NOT coming.
For examples of just how much money you have to dump into government run motor co's just read up on the history of British Leyland and Renault. Once these govt. sponsored job creation schemes get going.. there's almost no stopping them...
~splat
Angry Saver, You think this isn't bad behavior?
Going, going , gone -Galt
Well, Tuesday is generally hottie night at the ol' health club. So, it's off to yoga for me.
splat wrote:
I've got money on the Depression that says you can.
josap wrote:
Move to Californ (redacted to avoid violating Dawg-win's rule) and you've got a fighting chance. Just pick somewhere like Humboldt where you can find a thriving commune to join.
Nah! We will keep it outside the budget , just like we did for the trillion dollar Iraq invasion. We will do exactly the same, we will just give another tax cut and the lifting economic tide will pay for everything.
Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 10/27/2009 - 8:07 pm
I think it's going to take some really bad behavior to end all this cronyism and fraud.
No, they'll just kill you or put you in jail forever if you try to stop them. They have plenty of bristle-headed thugs without the wits to do anything but follow orders, and the rabble will cheer because they're not smart enough to do otherwise.
Just chill out and wait for it. The central state will go prostrate momentarily, as nations measure moments. Then you'll be able to apply a remedy. For now, all you can do is watch the thieves empty out the coffers.
And so we have a less productive society as a result. - SC
We're paying people not to work, just as we pay farmers not to grow crops. That's the point. We have too much production here.
...LOL.......I must be old....It's a typical Tuesday nite....watch World's Biggest Loser while eating a big bowl of peach pie, ice cream and milk.......all compliments of
and tree
I've been waiting for this one. Finally my neighbor and I can trade houses. And both pocket $7300 in the process. Isn't this country great?
Effective Demand wrote:
My ears are burning - my wife and I are FTHBs with a combined income around $170k, looking to buy a house in the $650k range. Even though we were not previously eligible for the credit, we consoled ourselves with the fact that most people looking to buy in our range aren't either.
And now we're still not eligible, but much of our competition is. This change makes us significantly less likely to buy in the near future.
What's up with the reverse Robin Hood? When did it become OK to take from renters and give to homeowners?
This expansion and extension of the tax credit is exactly the opposite of what everyone who believed in Dodd's and Frank's basic uprightness expected. When will we wake up and realize that these guys are just shoveling money into homeowners' and banks' pockets in return for re-election?
Kill me quickly....
I would sooner destroy a stained glass window than an artist like yourself. However, since I can't have you follow me either...
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
I have to agree with the Byzantine here. All you can do now is sit and wait for the opening; the opportunity if you will.
Speaking of history--
Time Mag Feb 13, 1933
While Congress continued to mumble & bumble over farm relief plans which cannot pass this session, big life insurance companies of the East last week held out helping hands to the debt-stricken West. From its headquarters at Newark, N. J. the largest single farm land creditor in the U. S., Prudential Insurance Co., announced it was suspending for an indefinite period foreclosures on its $209,000,000 worth of mortgages on 37,000 farms in the U. S. and Canada. Mutual Benefit Life Insurance Co. (Newark) followed suit by declaring it had ordered its Iowa agents to cease trying to collect $5,000,000 tied up in foreclosure suits in that State. President Frederick H. Ecker of Metropolitan Life (world's largest) revealed that for two years his organization had been foreclosing farm mortgages only "where the farmer is unwilling to carry on or try to do his part toward working out his problem." Other big life insurance companies which suspended foreclosures in Iowa: John Hancock, Aetna Life, Connecticut Mutual, Connecticut General, Phoenix Mutual.
I'm always somewhere.
I wish I could say I was surprised.
but I can't. I've been expecting this the whole time
the only surprise: I thought for sure they'd up it.
I'll wait until April. they'll probably up the amount then
I can't wait to get my $16k credit.
tdk
I grew up in the 60s, please don't send me back there.
I really wish I was going - it is usually a good show. The other one I wanted to go to was in Vegas in a week or so [automotive aftermarket] - just to walk the thing and see all the crazy people who show up. I swear half of those exhibitors are SOEs from China.
Oh well maybe next year.
Never Again II-
This probably had something to do with that decision. We are not powerless when we act in unison with a common goal.
From the Archive: Dealing With Foreclosure (1933) - Lens Blog - NYTimes.com
So maybe somebody commented already, but $7,290.
WTF? why not $7138.43? Or at least something with 420 in it, to better represent the origin of this bill.
You think this isn't bad behavior?
Going, going , gone -Galt
Never Again II,
Ayn Rand had the key point all wrong. She thought that the business leaders were the lynchpin and would that they would CONsciously exit. The reality is those John Galts are the leeches. They would NEVER leave the system voluntarily. They take far more than they earn.
The U.S. was made great by squeezing eCONomic privilege from the system and expanding opportunities for all while also allowing huge success AND failure at the individual level. The John Galts Rand spoke of thrived on the privilege just like today's bankers and CEOs. Their wealth is largely derived from access to Government and the Fed.
If our middle class quits, it's over.
The free market is a tough place. Ayn Rand's John Galts are the likes of Goldman Sachs and GM. Good ridance.
Byzantine_Ruins wrote:
And remember it won't be worth much soon anyway. Not at this pace.
ridiculous_fish wrote:
Always, when America first became a country only land owners could vote.
The Uncommon Man wrote:
...before walking away.
+1 EC
Angry Saver I like the way you think.
dryfly wrote:
If only there were enough houses above $73,000 in value in Detroit, there might be salvation for that damned city.
I'm going to dinner. Later, all.
Angry Saver wrote:
Amen. Make that a Hallelujah & Amen.
"Ayn Rand had the key point all wrong. "
Everyone depends on everyone else, because everything is interconnected. If a shop owner waves his arms in Paraguay, there will be a hurricane in San Pedro.
JP wrote:
It probably has something to do with the fact that $729,000 is the limit for "jumbo conforming" loans.
Thanks, Gabyjan. I knew what CT was since that is where I am collecting, but good to see it isn't terribly out of line with most of the country.
You obviously never read Atlas.
Dead Shtick wrote:
You called my name.
The shaft wasn't too bad,it was the 12' brass screw attached to it that hurt.
"When did it become OK to take from renters and give to homeowners?"
Ha! Better broader question: When did taxation, which is an inefficient mechanism for income redistribution, become OK ?
NOTaREALmerican wrote:
With regard to the banksters and other special interests it is Kang v. Kodos. It is 100% dumbasses. Well except for those who vote for none of the above, or not at all