CNBC's Olick: Could Home Valuation Code of Conduct Be History??
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Thu, 10/22/2009 - 3:22pm (184 comments)
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Recent Recommendations
The House Financial Services Committee has just passed an amendment to the Consumer Financial Protection Agency Act to sunset the HVCC [Home Valuation Code of Conduct].
:shakes head:
The whole point of current policy is to restart the housing bubble.
Go ahead, take your best shots.
People have been burned, and burned badly. There will be no more housing bubble.
5 feet of water in the basement.
Indoor lap pool.
Cool.
The genuis of housing... a home is like a ponzi bubble you can LIVE IN!!!
But the corpus of commercial law and regulation relating to fraud remains intact and enforced, right?
C
This has to be an advert for a new movie:
Housing Bubble II: The Appraisal from Uranus
Look at what I found from the Congressional Record!
March 16, 2006 in the Senate - Increasing the Statutory Limit on Public Debt
Mr. OBAMA. Mr. President, I rise today to talk about America's debt problem. The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is trillion'' with aT.'' That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President's budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we'll spend on Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America's priorities. Instead, interest payments are a significant tax on all Americans--a debt tax that Washington doesn't want to talk about. If Washington were serious about honest tax relief in this country, we would see an effort to reduce our national debt by returning to responsible fiscal policies.
Bwahahahahahahaha!
"The greatest good you can do for another is not just to share your riches, but reveal to them their own." - Benjamin Disraeli
Looks like there are lots of amoral scumbags in society, but not all of them have the smarts to make it to the top.
Thnx, yslp.........I'm saving that......
More from our current President:
Our debt also matters internationally. My friend, the ranking member of the Senate Budget Committee, likes to remind us that it took 42 Presidents 224 years to run up only $1 trillion of foreign-held debt. This administration did more than that in just 5 years. Now, there is nothing wrong with borrowing from foreign countries. But we must remember that the more we depend on foreign nations to lend us money, the more our economic security is tied to the whims of foreign leaders whose interests might not be aligned with ours. Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ``the buck stops here.'' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit.
Are we able to vote "no confidence" and throw the whole government out?
I get the feeling appraisers aren't too happy with their current situation either. When I got an appraisal this week, I asked the guy how it was going with home prices all over the map. "It's been fun," he snarked. Didn't seem too cheerful. We'll see just how fun when I get my appraisal figure next week.
No more under-water mortgages???!!
I don't know about ya'll but i'm jazzed.
Tomorrow, I'm quiting my job and going out and purchasing that new rad gaming computer I always wanted....
with windows 7!!
eat your hearts out.
amscum indeed! Thanks ylsp, I kept copies.
It does seem no lessons have been learned. It is impossible to re-inflate the housing bubble, but we are definitely seeing an echo bubble.
Some people will argue the HVCC has depressed sales - but sales of existing homes are still above the normal turnover rate! That suggests this hasn't depressed sales at all.
Of course a short post like this guarantees a flood of emails from agents and mortgage brokers telling me why it is important that they have control again - and how they never abused the system. And telling me all their HVCC horror stories. Geesh - I guess existing home sales will be very low tomorrow (NOT!)
best to all
CR not really getting it yet.
That's it!!! I'm getting my realtor's license... Oh geeezz.. It only takes 2 weeks.. What is the harm..
The Mexico demographics suggest a HUGE increase in babies coming of age in the next few years.
Where will they all go?
Perhaps we will be able to sell our two bedroom, 1500 sq ft 20x20 lot to a multiple generation that has plenty of experience in dwelling in rather small abodes with their whole families.
Why do you think "they" have relaxed the immigration standards so?
Hey Counterpointer - last thread you mentioned Cebu. Is that where you are hanging your hat these days?
Hmm, I just learned from a 9 year old Cub Scout that Hand Sanitizer = Napalm
Actually ... this is an excellent response
The system DID have issues but like with anything the vast majority of transactions appraisals were not the problem ... it is far better to address the ABUSE rather than blowing up eh entire system
The current HVCC has swung so far past reasonable that it is causing very real harm. In the past appraisers were USUALLY selected for their competence and knowledge of specific markets - it used to be an appraisees had to know the local market they worked in ... today you get robots with little or no clue about the individual characteristics of the area and they are extremely resistant to input from realtors and buyers - even when backed by facts
Repealing HVCC and then simply reviewing and enforcing proper standards to eliminate abuse is a far better choice in my opinion
How can we sell $1 million houses to $2.50/hr transients?
Okay, it's possible but not for a long period of time.
It took me about a week to get my RE License. I used the Rockwell Online course. I knocked out the 60 hrs in about 4 days
CalculatedRisk wrote:
Theres an easy fix to this: post the emails for us to laugh at (remove the names to protect the guilty).
then again, it could just cause more of a shitstorm of emails for ya
Nemo is right - the government is trying like crazy to reinflate the bubble. This is just one small step in the process.
Hi Mike - nah, just roaming around being uncivil.
"Call that an investment thesis!? BWAHAHAHAHA! Pleasure doing business with you."
C
Why bother with appraisals? They're so anti-business.
facts like granite counter-tops and stainless steel appliances trump principal agent moral hazard concerns
"The current HVCC has swung so far past reasonable that it is causing very real harm. "
BS
"extremely resistant to input from realtors"
do you really believe the crap you spew?
kinkman wrote:
There hasn't been a really good track record in this concept of "reviewing and enforcing standards" - sometimes called regulation - recently. Hopefully, it won't be another INDUSTREEEE self-regulation scam. Oh, sorry, it will be.. Who else writes laws but lobbyists these days? My-bad...
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
Until they propose a way for people with no income to buy a house, they won't be able to sustain their efforts. If they do manage it, they'll have to design price appreciation of say 2 or 3% above inflation in order for speculative owners to willfully hold houses vacant to eliminate supply. For 10 to 20 years until they have enough households that will reduce the slack on their own. Basically more than they can afford, even if they started out with a national debt of zero.
All they need is for 15 million Boomers to "buy" a second retirement home with their SSN "savings".
What a Chappaquiddick!
Okay. Not wanting to limit my searching of the Congressional Record for somewhat OT debt ceiling talk.
Here is the list of Sponsors for the 18 month moratorium (HR 3044).
H.R. 3044 . A bill to impose an 18-month moratorium on the Home Valuation Code of Conduct; to the Committee on Financial Services.
You'll be shocked at this list, both the size and the political background.
Mr. Marchant
Mr. Duncan
Mr. Thompson of California
Ms. Jenkins
Mr. Kratovil
5
Mr. Poe of Texas
Mr. Coble
Mr. Neugebauer
Mrs. Schmidt
10
Mr. Culberson
Mr. Bartlett
Mr. Wilson of South Carolina
Mr. Courtney
Mr. Al Green of Texas
15
Mr. Smith of Texas
Mr. Simpson
Mr. McClintock
Mr. Inglis
Mr. Baca
20
Mr. Brady of Texas
Mr. Donnelly of Indiana
Mr. Westmoreland
Mr. Mack
Mr. Sam Johnson of Texas
25
Mr. Sherman
Mr. Moran of Kansas
Mr. Bilbray
Mr. McIntyre
Mr. Young of Florida
30
Mrs. Capito
Mr. Young of Alaska
Mr. DeFazio
Mr. Herger
Mr. McHenry
35
Mr. Driehaus
Mr. Conaway
Mr. Carter
Mr. Hunter
Mr. Bilirakis
40
Ms. Kosmas
Mr. Lujan
Mr. Crenshaw
Mr. Schock
Mr. Hill
45
Ms. Tsongas
Mr. Campbell
Mr. Lucas
Mr. Walden
Mr. Berry.
50
Mr. Gene Green of Texas
Mr. Davis of Tennessee
Mr. Rooney
Mr. McCarthy of California
Mr. Gerlach.
55
Mr. Fattah
Mr. Bonner.
Mr. Paul
Mr. Manzullo
Mrs. Bachmann
60
Mr. Gallegly
Mrs. Lummis
Mr. Minnick
Mr. Jones
Ms. Jackson-Lee of Texas
65
Mr. Michaud
Mr. Guthrie
Mr. Shuler
Mr. Cassidy
Mr. Posey.
70
Mr. Cardoza
Mr. Upton
Mr. Sessions
Mr. Daniel E. Lungren of California
Mr. Tiahrt
75
Mr. Alexander
Mr. Pitts
Mr. Scalise
Mr. Boozman
Mr. Teague
80
Mr. Matheson
Ms. Titus
Mr. Kingston
Mr. Mitchell
Mrs. Bono Mack.
85
Mrs. Halvorson
Mr. McKeon
Mr. Calvert
Mr. Brown of South Carolina
Mr. Rohrabacher
90
Mr. Neal of Massachusetts
Mr. Boucher
Mr. Platts
Mr. Price of Georgia
Ms. Foxx
95
Mr. Abercrombie
Ms. Granger
Mr. Heinrich
Mr. Perriello
Mr. Stearns
100
Mr. Honda
Mr. Peters.
Mr. Hinojosa.
Mr. Miller of Florida
Ms. Zoe Lofgren of California
105
Mr. Klein of Florida
Mr. Olson
Mr. Dent
Mr. Graves
Mr. McCaul.
110
Mr. LaTourette
Mr. Davis of Kentucky.
112
YLSP wrote:
why?
EHP - it is a little-known but fascinating true fact that buried deep in the latter clauses of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the right to full and unimpeded access by every global citizen, progressively realized but starting with Americans, to granite counter-tops and stainless steel appliances. One of the few really useful things the UN has done, to some observers. Just needs ratifying.
C
All of the sudden this past week, i've come across new cans of alphabet soup I don't remember seeing, perhaps the Big Gov acronymysts have been busy?
112 co-sponsors. Wide bi-partisan support. Slam dunk.
What about Audit the Fed? You don't think they are playing us? Are you angry yet?
A number of names jumped out at me. Ron Paul (although he's a get government out of everything type of guy). Brad Sherman?
Wonder what would happen if we cross-checked that list at Open Secrets?
Every time I think it can't get any more absurd, BOOM, another rotten floor gives way.
broward,
I dunno. I expected something like 10-20 co-sponsors.
Maybe the opposition is because it's a federal mandate being placed on a state's issue? I'm assuming appraisers are licensed at the state level everywhere. They are in some states, such as CA and TX...
Here's what the FHFA claims to do:
The Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) was created on July 30, 2008, when the President signed into law the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008. The Act created a world-class, empowered regulator with all of the authorities necessary to oversee vital components of our country’s secondary mortgage markets – Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banks.
"Empowered" regulator until Congress comes along and chops their balls off...
This is a policy. Why is anyone even surprised any longer?
Broward,
80mn boomers, US Census Press Releases
2007 data: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/ahs/ahs07/tab1a-1.pdf
128mn housing units
4.4mn vacation
110mn occupied (75mn owned, of which 50mn mortgaged, 35mn renters)
13mn vacant
108mn households
If the national household size nudged up to California's level, that adds another 14mn vacant houses. Would be 1 in 4 housing units vacant.
Can't wait for the 2009 data. Going to be a lot of condos added. Your plan could work, one of the relatively good proposals I have heard. Better give each boomer household a free home in exchange for early retirement (double the number of houses awarded, stimulate the job market too)
Spunkmeyer wrote:
I think we haven't even begun to see the really absurd stuff.
becoming FDIC-insured banks, then Government Motors, now back to fantasy appraisals.
Although I must admit I'm getting inured to absurdity.
First the housing bubble, then the insane TARP bailouts, then
Mental inertia is a powerful force, particularly after sixty years of consistent conditioning.
"Until they propose a way for people with no income to buy a house, they won't be able to sustain their efforts."
It's coming.
Note the progress of HAMP. At first you had to document your income upfront. Now you just have to document at the end of the trial period. The trial periods have been extended to 5 months. Next; as long as you pay, you won't have to document your income.
Next up?
west of the fields wrote:
EDITED: I found the answer.
,rad Spunkmeyer,
I was turning the corner into teenagehood when Watergate happened, and it was hard for my peabrain to understand, but it had a similar flow to what's happening now. From the break-in to Tricky Dick leaving on a chopper, was about 2 1/2 years, but the shit didn't get rolling downhill really until late in the game, and then it gained a momentum, and AMF Nixon
YLSP wrote:
yes. that's called a "revolution".
CalculatedRisk wrote:
if you are willing to call this an "echo bubble", then you should be willing to concede that we will see some more cliff diving in the future.
jez sayin.
"they won't be able to sustain their efforts."
Note the date on this. A bubble can be sustained for awhile if we start loosening these standards.
CNN.com - FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic' - Sep 17, 2004
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
I seriously do not understand how anyone is expected to make investments in an environment where everything is manipulated.
At this rate, the FedGov is going to need to find a way to back everything. Where do I sign up for my portfolio insurance? Oh, that's only for people who are drowning in debt? Well, what about the rest of us?
Whoa...."It's true that Business Week wrote on May 23, 2006:
President George W. Bush has bestowed on his intelligence czar, John Negroponte, broad authority, in the name of national security, to excuse publicly traded companies from their usual accounting and securities-disclosure obligations."
Herding the Sheep | zero hedge
Baaaa!!
Update: "CENTCOM announced in 2008 that a team of employees would be "[engaging] bloggers who are posting inaccurate or untrue information, as well as bloggers who are posting incomplete information.""
sm_landlord wrote:
Bingo! it's the government
.
ghostfaceinvestah,
oh, I meant unemployed people with no current job being able to get a mortgage for a house. People need shelter, and if it is being made artificially expensive then the government has to also take care of the unemployed homeless types.
I seriously do not understand how anyone is expected to make investments in an environment where everything is manipulated.
don't fight the feds.
nice! glad my vampire squid icon idea was implemented. of course, it is the face part of the equation that is key.
YouTube - IT CAME WITHOUT WARNING - HD - Trailer | Rare DVD and Hard to Find Films on Video
anywho, this is just the logical extension of our monetary system.
from the pages of drudge, northworst: Plane crazy: NWA flight misses MSP by 150 miles | StarTribune.com
That's nothing. The Fed overshot DC by a few trillion...
Basel Too wrote:
I get it, I get it. Now I just have to figure out where they want me to invest, right?
So maybe I buy some units and rent them out section 8. Then they pull the rug out in a couple of years and suddenly I'm a slumlord with a vacancy problem. No thanks.
Feds will keep trading $$$ for real goods until real goods are no longer delivered.
Do not taunt the Cthulhu...
demotivational posters - Don't taunt the cthulu cthulu, taunt, warning, funny 10093
sm_landlord wrote:
They don't.
You still don't understand that YOU are part of the problem.
Is it really your investment or your saving, when superiors decide (on arbitrary political whims) where "your" money goes, and what the currency it's denominated in is worth?
So is this what happened at 2:55 ET today to set off the homebuilder moonrocket? Makes sense--restoring appraisers' responsiveness to realtors and buyers sounds a lot more bubblicious than merely extending the homebuyer tax credit.
sm_landlord wrote:
Right there with you. I'm thinking that just doing something tangible, like brewing beer, is going to have to be my future calling. The construction/real estate industry is just too much of a
to think I'll be able to accomplish much there these next few years.
Big Gov, you cheeky devil!
Isn't 'incomplete information' just a little on the vague side?
For instance, I left out a period passing off your quote, thus incomplete.
Perhaps we contractors should consider Dubai?
broward wrote:
OK, so help me understand. I should pack up and move to New Zealand? Sleep on a bed of gold bars? Or just spend money like there's no tomorrow?
Trying to find the public comments for the HVCC... can't find that page and have been looking for 10 minutes...
Blackwaterwannabe wrote:
I know an architect colleague who went there a few years ago. Worked like a slave.
ghostfaceinvestah
I believe the fraud and stupid lending was a feature of the bubble that defined the final extent of it, but was not the main thrust. A bubble would have happened even with responsible lending standards. Look around the world for empirical evidence.
The main thrust was housing offering attractive real capital returns adjusted for apparent risk. Without the price appreciation to cover basic ownership costs, it is rational for the vacant inventory to be liquidated. Some individuals might have irrational beliefs on housing, but ultimately death, divorce, and job relocation force some sales. There is so much inventory that prices will fall a lot.
To stabilize prices you need to effectively absorb that inventory. Either through price appreciation, encouraging household formation, or physical destruction of the house. The Fed has not planned for any of these yet, and thus they won't sustain prices.
Even if they just targeted engaging a new price appreciation bubble, they won't succeed because the context is now so bad that they would only manage a very short, rapid, and expensive manipulation of prices.
Inflation doesn't preserve the real house price. It will reduce the real interest rate on many loans, but it will not help the majority of Americans who have their house as their primary asset/investment/savings that was to pay for their retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cthulhu_and_R%27lyeh.jpg
Cthulhu awaits...
Oh, this is nice, too:
Fraud Reported in Program to Help New Homebuyers
Audit of Home Tax Credit Shows Errors and Abuses - NY Times
"Just as Congressional leaders are calling for an extension of a popular $8,000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers, or even an expansion to all home purchasers, government investigators reported Thursday that their audits suggest widespread abuse and errors in the program."
,rad potential slumlord,
What do have against the standing Section 8 account?
In China it's the luckiest number, you know...
OT, but remember this name:
Frank Gaffney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Spunkmeyer (profile) wrote on Thu, 10/22/2009 - 7:19 pm
Fraud Reported in Program to Help New Homebuyers
Audit of Home Tax Credit Shows Errors and Abuses - NYTimes.com
fraud in government assistance programs? hoocoodanode?!
Juvenal Delinquent wrote:
You basically end up as a government employee, but with your own capital at risk. Your cash, their rules.
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
You bail out AIG just 3 or 4 times and suddenly people hold it against you forever
"It is impossible to re-inflate the housing bubble"
The govi can begin purchasing all securitizations quietly allowing all the sloppy underwriting practices. Via FHA, they are pushing the envelope already.
Actually JD, I am one of the few contractors that would very much kill to get a good Section 8 deal..
just saying.
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
I promise that I will not re-tell my story about writing software for Medicare billing.
Just use your imagination. The users certainly did.
,rad sm_,
Why do hate Santa Rosita so much?
EvilHenryPaulson (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 10/22/2009 - 7:26 pm
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
fraud in government assistance programs? hoocoodanode?!
You bail out AIG just 3 or 4 times and suddenly people hold it against you forever
... Don't forget the net benefit to society of protecting all that "talent" for its amazingly efficient combination of psychopathy, intelligence, the ability to engage in clever fraud coupled with entitlement behavior.
I would be very happy for any appraiser at all to evaluate housing, PROVIDING that any house sold at that appraisal is financed and GUARANTEED by a PRIVATE ENTITY that is NOT underwritten by TAXPAYER MONEY.
PAY TO PLAY SQUIDS
Thank you sm, I just got my 10% rat-on-friend kickback forwarded to HS.
Should be coming by Christmas time.
Sorry buddy, got bills to pay, doncha know.
Juvenal Delinquent wrote:
Do you mean the "Big W"?
They shot part of that movie right behind the place where I grew up.
This charade will end badly.
.
The TBTF must truly be insolvent beyond repair if the government is still this determined to do anything and everything for them. Maybe we are in a global can kicking to see who has to blink first. That victim will be toast after we rape and pillage their resources. At that point, we will be much better off. Or, we wait for the next one to drop and rinse and repeat. It may be like a locust swarm finally running out of land to consume so they turn on each other until the swarm is smaller and the land can support it again.
sm_landlord (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 10/22/2009 - 7:29 pm
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
fraud in government assistance programs? hoocoodanode?!
I promise that I will not re-tell my story about writing software for Medicare billing.
Just use your imagination. The users certainly did.
I have heard that coding for medical billing is an art form of its own, which is the reason those very good at it are well compensated for what they have learned to get away with.
,rad Blackwaterwannabe,
So there's money to be made in making them, but not owning them-according to ,rad sm_.
ResistanceIsFeudal wrote:
As soon as I figured out what was going on, I exited stage left. Hopefully there is a statute of limitations. That was in 1983.
ot -- precious metals anecdote
I visited my local coin store today to get my bi-monthly numismatic fix and noticed a obvious increase in generic bullion coins and bars. It consisted of mainly platinum but gold and silver increased as well. This surprised me, mainly because i was considering ordering some PAMP platinum. I didn't ask about their appearance because any interest in bullion is frowned upon by numismatic types and I'm still trying to build my rep. Pathetic, I know. I'll probably go back tomorrow to burn some more cash. If I get any interesting info you know I'll spew it out here
Allen C wrote:
Then inflation takes over and forces real house prices down from the other side. The current context is not conducive for a bubble. You generally can only extend bubbles from their peak, or restart a new bubble once the last one has burst. It's all about supply/inventory/demand and how price can dance between user and producer levels. This is all very simple, at least in my mind.
All purchasing those MBS does is keep mortgage rates down, and allow an ongoing nationalization of the Agencies at a cheaper price. The downside is they have suffocated the private MBS market, are paying a higher blended rate on debt servicing than if all borrowing was in USTs, and have left the element of fear in play whether it be adding trillions to the national debt or cutting loose all dependent on Agency guarantees.
sneering nihilist wrote:
I'd be curious to know if they are purposefully buying the coins and bars or if people are having to/wanting to sell their bullion. Might help me decide on my next purchase.
It's a sm_ world after all...
sm_landlord - LOL -- creative fraud IS the new economy! And has been for quite a while, as J6P is slowly discovering... at his expense.
yagij -- I'll tell you right now that I will not ask that question. If the answer gets volunteered I'll tell you.
Google Trends: gold price, oil price, silver price
Google searches for price of oil, gold, silver.
Offers search volume, location, language
sneering nihilist wrote:
I am not sure I don't understand. If they are buying 'em, wouldn't "why are people selling so much bullion?" be fine, or are they that much of a snob? Organized crime?
sneering nihilist wrote:
Jeez, you make it sound like the pawn shop in "Pulp Fiction."
A new record high price in the value of anything will always bring out more long-term-owner sellers, no?
The grey-mare doesn't have to worry about this, so much...
wow, if you use Chinese as a default language on the computer in Canada you are much more likely to be searching about gold and oil prices
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
Interesting. So Silver may have a ways to run, meme-wise.
Maybe those people who keep talking about the gold/silver ratio are not crazy after all.
Cue Juvie here.
It definitely needs to be tweaked. Most of the major mortgage lenders have gone to appraisal management companies. The appraisers didn't reduce their fees and the management companies add an extra $50 for themselves, so the consumer has to pay more. It is not uncommon to get an appraiser that is not familiar with the area they are asked to appraise. I have had appraisers call asking where the city is located that the property is in. There were abuses in the past for sure, but the current HVCC is not the solution in its current form.
silver, copper, platinum, etc are all too infrequent for the charts to come up well
The Argent Provocateurs don't understand that the Chinese want Four9erraris, not a fleet of Ford Aspires~
Would some of the people unhappy with the HVCC propose alternatives? You probably aren't going to get any traction here without providing a better way that still responds to the problems that HVCC was to address
why EHP?
I work in the appraisal dept of a Bank enforcing the HVCC. From what I have seen of Loan officer and realtor's, I wouldn't get a mortgage through my own bank, because I am absolutely sure that most Loan officer would STILL try to inflate the value. You would not believe how many time I hear isn't there a little wiggle room in the value I need 80-100k extra value to close the deal or appraisals that have been magically "revised" and wouldn't you believe the value went up 5, 10, 20, 100, 250k. (YES! we reject those appraisals.) Whatever the loan officer thought he need to close the deal. We catch those guys, but I am quite sure a lot make it through that are more subtle. Don't let Loan Officer an Realtors feed you a line about how appraiser use to picked for experience and knowledge of the local market. It is a complete load of crap, they picked the appraiser who would come in at the value they needed to get the deal done and if the appraiser didn't see things the Loan Officers way,it was no more business period.
As for the appraisers there no saints either. True some are good and we rely on them a lot. But a lot of appraiser are bad also, mainly because the Loan officer having been picking their comps for so long they don't know how to do it anymore or never did in the first place! Or my favorite is the The ramshackle 800 sqf barn that they say is worth 15k and the appraiser missed seeing it the first time around. or the 2000 sqf compared to 3000 sqf 10 miles away in another suburb(those guys don't last to long
Is HVCC perfect no!!!, quite frankly I don't think it went far enough. I think Loan Officers and Realtors should be License by the FED and have a fiduciary responsibility to the borrower and if the violate HVCC even once their license should be revoked forever and no commissions for anyone connected with the mortgage process, Salary only!!! Trust me when I say this the word coming out of a 2nd rate used car salesman's lips are words from the mouth of babes compared to most Loan Officer's or Realtor. Honestly, IF I was going to buy another house some day I would save up and pay cash.
stop bailing out the f^*&^& banks and a lot of downstream problems solve themselves. Including this one.
yagij & spunk -- Have you been inside a shop when people are getting their possessions appraised? many times the people are desperate. many times the coins are from a dead relative. Usually that stuff is rolled 90% or 40% silver. Bullion is an afterthought at this shop anyways. They have it just to have it, I think. The value of several of their large cents exceeds the value of all their bullion.
I'm sure your sophisticated town has a shop or two. It would make a fun little trip to find out for yourself no?
But i kid the Neo-William Jennings Bryans, as at least they've got something other than manna imaginary.
"Update: "CENTCOM announced in 2008 that a team of employees would be "[engaging] bloggers who are posting inaccurate or untrue information, as well as bloggers who are posting incomplete information.""
Always been curious about how some of the more frequent posters paid their bills! Someone shoot me an email of how to apply or is it a double secret probation type of thing and you have to be chosen by a current member?
++++
Housing appraisals are too honest now? Legislation supposedly intended to make the problem better now needs a little rework because it's unintended consequence is to drop housing to the acceptable 2-3 x income. Furthering losses on bubble priced loans. Newsflash-lenders aren't lending. Unless all new lending is going to be FHA with lenders signing up only for servicing and the initial processing fee of the loan then this won't make a dif...uh, wait a minute, never mind.
sneering nihilist wrote:
I have 1 shop to choose from, and it is next door to an Italian restaurant that has no windows. (Un?)Surprisingly, there isn't much generic bullion there. Mostly some jewelry, collectible paper bills, and silver coins. Anything more valuable is in a massive safe and you don't get to see anything until you make your intentions--and ability--known.
.
In short, I'm not seeing what you are seeing, but my only shop drives me to only buy online.
Manna Imaginary = Prestidigitalization
@ we will not monetize
We WILL monetize. Watcha gonna do about it, punk?
sneering nihilist wrote:
I was thinking of it in terms of asking the person behind the counter a question, not providing color commentary on somebody's angst-ridden transaction.
I wrote some more of my online serial novel about life after an economic crash if anyone is interested.
sample
"No" Night and I told him simultaneously. "Yeah" He continued on, sounding more like he was talking to himself "Didn't show you the rest of town..." He refocused "We have a National Guard Armory here. We had about 55% of them report for duty with their families." Now he really lost focus. We sat there for a few minutes in silence while he stared off at something only he could see. Then he began speaking in a whisper "We blocked the highways and posted people at them. That didn't last. It stopped some, maybe even a lot...but they still kept coming. We tried doing disaster relief and managing the situation. That didn't last long either. The Major that was in command, Hollister, he was a good man with a good heart. He blew his brains out a couple weeks into it. The Captain, Scyuler, he...he took over." Here he paused again.
More? American Apocalypse
yagij -- sorry to hear that. fwiw the platinum assay cards were quite scruffy.
I prefer to avoid situations that might lead to depression, short of inviting a banker to lunch and poisening his mixed drink.
Do you know how much Prozac costs these days?
It's not like politicians who come up with these policies are dumb. They are extra smart.
I think this is an example of 'Whatever it takes guys.. we gotta get the bubble going again !"
~splat
RockyR wrote:
LOL - good thing they changed the name to DULL-ta...
spunk -- interesting. I don't really know how to respond to that. I guess it's just different than buying a pound of bologna at the deli, that's all.
NWA flight overshot Mpls. by 150 miles
They may have been asleep at the wheel literally.
I thought apprasials were done by Google map now?
sm_landlord wrote:
Yes.
sneering nihilist wrote:
No worries - I meant no offense. Obviously those places have a different vibe than I would have thought.
sm_landlord wrote...
You forgot "Find Jeebus."
EvilHenryPaulson wrote:
Would some of the people unhappy with the HVCC propose alternatives? You probably aren't going to get any traction here without providing a better way that still responds to the problems that HVCC was to address
Simple,...let the free market work it's magic. Allow the buyers and sellers to set their own market price and quit trying to second guess them with an "appraiser".
Looked at a house last weekend that needed 6k in pest work, already written up in the report. I looked at the listing agent and said no can do since it would never go FHA. Her reply was that she could find me an FHA apraiser that would just do a drive by and sign off if I wanted it and if I agreed, the bank would give me 7k back towards either closing costs or pest- which ever I'd prefer.
OK how many ways would that deal not work out? I bet someone thinks they are being sneaky offering 7k for a 3k closing.
I like the HVCC and want to keep it in place but who are we kidding? Nothing has changed.
pest work? Termites?
pest work? Termites?
Chipmunks!
yep and dry rot mitigation.
The thing is FHA caps you at no more then 3% for closing right? So how would you get the remaining 4k to the buyer without mentioning pest work? My understanding from my agent was you don't. The agent was using the extra 4k like an angler fish
"Nothing has changed."
I'll spot you a $12 trillion dollar deficit and a complete loss of faith in our financial system that says otherwise.
But, yes I get your point. The things we do to pay the bills...let's legalize prostitution and give it a tax break, be a more honest living then selling RE.
agent was using the extra 4k like an angler fish...
Oh...no wonder every salesperson I have done a major purchase through sends me Christmas cards.
Externalized Costs wrote:
And, the buyer's remorse is usually easier to address. Unless it's syphilis.
"Allow the buyers and sellers to set their own market price and quit trying to second guess them with an "appraiser""
And for refinances? Just outlaw cashouts and second liens?
Externalized Costs wrote:
Most realtors are too old and burned out for that to fly. Sorry.
seller can contribute up to 6% on FHA in points and or closing costs. Termite repairs would have to be completed prior to closing.
be a more honest living then selling RE
at least when a reach around is listed on the bill, it's really a reach around >; )
Unless you found a drive-by fha appraiser that would charge you 500 for the first visit and 100 for the next 3 check ups to buy his cooperation.
Deflationary Jane wrote:
A $30 service billed out at $10K? No Thanks.
I thought you had to separate the closing from the points so it didn't go over 3%?
"I work in the appraisal dept of a Bank enforcing the HVCC. From what I have seen of Loan officer and realtor's, I wouldn't get a mortgage through my own bank, because I am absolutely sure that most Loan officer would STILL try to inflate the value. You would not believe how many time I hear isn't there a little wiggle room in the value I need 80-100k extra value to close the deal or appraisals that have been magically "revised" and wouldn't you believe the value went up 5, 10, 20, 100, 250k."
A few years ago, just when the bubble was breaking, my bank put in a whole new appraisal procedure that outsourced appraisals to third party vendors, much like the HVCC requires. the abuses I saw before that would blow your mind.
You would not have believed the bitching. It was incredible. All kinds of complaints about deals not coming in at value.
This was 2007, when the market was dropping. Turns out the appraisers were being generous.
I agree with your sentiments about LOs. The ignorance of some of them is incredible, many don't even understand the products they are selling.
So....What does Fail-safe mean....in the context of the Baucus Health Care Act?
That it's going to fail, let's just do it safely?
It is not simply abuse that led to high appraisals. Most were legitimate, but were based on rising comps of other houses. A bubble feeds itself in that way. The identity of the party ordering the appraisals may limit corruption to some degree, but it will not prevent a bubble.
Easy credit and apparent wealth cause bubbles... people quite knowingly pay more than they should, hoping to still come out OK or, even better, rich.
I certainly don't oppose some reform, but let's quit scratching the crap out of every little, inconsequential thing and start going after the big stuff. This is getting really old.
And for refinances? Just outlaw cashouts and second liens?
I'm thinking we just stick some inflation adjustment number in there,...say 6 percent a year. Real estate will always go up! Problem solved. (Under my system no one would need a second.)
Oh and viewing a property while the tenant is at home? I've had more pleasant root canals. I almost offered this women $50 to shut up and get out of my face. Agents that are trying to sell a house short sale where the owners installed uncooperative tenant had to have killed jeebus's dog in a former life.
Juvenal Delinquent wrote:
> All of the sudden this past week, i've come across new cans of alphabet soup I don't remember seeing, perhaps the Big Gov acronymysts have been busy?
Alphabet soup is a traditional US response to depressions.
Just read the MJ article on Elizabeth Warren. I would go to war for that woman. What struck me was the emotional response I had to her altruism and willingness to risk her standing in academia to take a stand for American families against the most powerful force in the US. She meets my definition of hero.
Jane, Jane, I think you deserve a Nobel for that.! Touche'. You rock.
I once looked @ a property w/ the tenant still in it. They told me all the negative things about the place...creepy.
Appraisers are there to give the bank an estimate of collateral value. Lenders can choose whatever LTV limit they want.
Buyer should never want a higher appraisal at purchase, unless they are attempting fraud.
Seller is free to pick the buyer whose lender is willing to pay the most.
Realtors should move away from simple commission, should be fee/hourly based with an incentive payment tailored to the preferences of their client.
I haven't seen a good example with numbers to illustrate the complaints with HVCC. The lending market is very generous and loose right now in my opinion, so the HVCC may just be the scapegoat for lower home prices.
If someone wants to propose an alternative to the HVCC, I would be willing to listen
nova wrote:
In the old days they sent top shelf liquor.
We don't need heroes. We need martyrs.
In the old days people could afford to send top shelf liquor.
I'll be the hero, you be the martyr. Deal?
The Appraisal Business in California is FUBAR IMO and HVCC does nothing to fix it.Look at USPAP to see the minimum requirements for an Appraisal,then look at the the educational requirements to become an Appraiser (include the 2,000 hours as a supervised Trainee at very low pay).Then look at the overhead involved from gas and car to office and software,licensing,continuing education...and then look at how much an "Appraisal" costs.Any fully licensed Appraiser who conforms to USPAP and GENUINEY supervises their trainees will be broke,soon.
In the old days there were fewer confessed alcoholics.
sneering nihilist,
I've always found the coin shop staffers to be very willing to chat about the market and the nature of their traffic. Hey, they make their living off the contrarian vibe and generally love their work, so it's natural for them. Every time I go in I say "howz biz?" and usually find out everything I could care to know.
In the old days I thought I would make money doing Scottrade full time
LOL
That I don't mind. It's the people trotting out their dogs saying they have no place to go or the one's that blow smoke right in your face (I actually sent the listing agent a dry cleaning bill for that). The best are the ones that schedule a time then don't open the door. If you have the listing agent with you and they've been given 24hrs notice in writing, bring a film crew because that is some funny stuff right there >; )
Most airplane passengers don't know this...but the pilots don't watch the same crummy in-flight movies you do.
They get to pick their own movies, really good ones. Sometimes, they just run a little long.
extend and pretend for Wall St crooks and politicians
pretend and extend for mortgage brokers
it's the same ponzi scheme semantics
for a while it was almost impossible to get an FHA inspection- they paid too little so no one did them.
Tom, It's the wild wild west out here again. I hope it's a bit more sane out your way.
"alternative to the HVCC"
Make it a state agency and the appraisers civil servants with good pay and benefits. Add in an internal affairs department that spot checks a random mandated percentage of all appraisals to cut down on fraud and influence peddling. Fund it through a set fee per transaction paid by the bank and added into the closing cost. Voila.
Yes it is more govt and regulation. Private worked so much better?
rich wrote:
The article said it overshot Mpls by 150 miles and took 75 minutes... that has to be a world record for a 'money shot'.
Modine Plans to Close Harrodsburg, Kentucky, as Part of Capacity Consolidation; Will Offer Support Services to Affected Employees
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS226160+22-Oct-2009+BW20091022
Externalized Costs,
Your proposal sounds fine. Would have economies of scale in database info, would have synergies with property tax collection or construction permits.
I get the drift that some people here who do not like HVCC, just want appraisals at or above the upper end of the market price
I love the baltic index for gauging oceanic freight costs, and I like railfax for giving me an idea of car loadings, but do we have a rail freight cost index, similar to the baltic? It'd be helpful.
Having been in the business for a good part of 15 years, I am astounded that Congress would open the door to what is tauntamant to fraud. Being we are talking fraud, I have a hard time believing anyone would even engage in the business. Eventually some appraisal will be questioned and it will open the door for down the line prosecution. You couldn't have paid me any price to fabricate something that went into a loan package, nor would I have used an appraisal that came out of the blue.
Right on Tom. Funny how we pay these stupid idiots in State /Congress to pass laws that....well, would be better received on Saturday Night Live.
The pilots had to wait for the Viagra to wear off before they could safely land.
YLSP wrote:
He will find out later how minor that problem was. Once we start paying real interest on his debt, the number will approach $1 trillion
I can't help it but when I hear extend and pretend... never mind. I need more primitivo before I can go there >; 0
I like EC's plan. "Yes it is more govt and regulation. Private worked so much better? " bravo. My thoughts exactly.
Echo as in subprime, give them the downpayment, rob Peter to pay Paul.
rich wrote:
I really want to hear the voice recorder for this one. Since the mandatory recording length is 30 minutes, but some airlines record longer, I wonder if something happened in the cockpit shortly before descent, that for the sake of saving face forced the pilots to loiter for an extra hour to erase all evidence of...
How's that for
?
Texas appraisers used to be merely real estate agents with some designations. As long as someone with a designation signed off, I don't believe at the time you had to do anything but have a RE license. In recent years, I beleive they have made it a different license. I would have to believe that an underwriter would likely go over any appraisal put in a package and clearly the first thing looked at in an REO is the appraisal. The appraiser is the first guy they put in jail.
RockyR wrote:
I would start voting again if they would put none of the above on the ballot
ghostfaceinvestah wrote:
You clearly don't know much about fraud do you? When the buyers start paying cash, they can do that. IN fact, the buyer can pay as much of his own money as he likes. Problem is, the buyer isn't generally paying his own money, the mortgage outfit isn't loaning their own money and the validity of the loan package depends on good collateral.