Report: U.S. Discussing Selling Citi Shares
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Mon, 09/14/2009 - 3:48pm (251 comments)
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nemo!
So are CitiGroup shares going to tank tomorrow (because of the large supply of stock) or will they soar because the day traders are basically insane?
I hope they don't end up dumping it on widows and orphans. Hopefully mutual funds are too smart to buy those shares.
Premature.
Absolutely, totally premature.
They think it's over and it's not.
Obama is one and done.
If they had seized and liquidated the bank in the first place, this wouldn't even be an issue.
mp:
I listened to Obama's Wall Street speech. Pathetic. Pleading is not leading. How's that for a stupid slogan even a community organizer can understand.
The way this thing is playing out it reminds me of "The China Syndrome."
The should be exploring how to break up Citigroup.
My retired mother, who dabbles in the market, bought Citibank in the 2s. I have no idea why she bought, but I suspect a tipster on CNBC.
Sure - sell the shares - some profit for the taxpayer is good.
The real loss is to prudent savers. And we've been getting reamed lately. There is no 'safe' place to store value anymore. Thanks a lot - you geniuses in the government.
10 More Banks Should Have Failed: Jim Rogers
mp
+1,000,000
Thinking is not doing. Head fake for greenshoots.Some thing stinks coming.
I know of a lot of geniuses who bought financial stocks in the spring - they are clearly smarter than me. Because their portfolio is up big.
I am absolutely stunned at how short a memory J6P has. 12 Months ago, we were discussing the collapse of western capitalism. Now it seems like a bad dream.
All part and parcel of the rehabilitation of Timmayy, by way of rehabilitating Hank and Ben, and the TARP as policy. It worked, in spite of the protests, the jeremiads, the doomers, but these things are complex, they know what they're doing, and hey, two guys who were around under the last guy are still here! Cool! Oh, and the other one's being written up in Vanity Fair as a misunderstood Streeter genius in a tight spot who graciously entered public service at a difficult time for a difficult administration.
Roll on the remainder of the campaign to celebrate, reinforce, and move on to the mid-terms.
C
watch for lennie dykstra pawning his WS ring @ 3:00 or so
http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/nms/ny_news/post_518.html
A good friend of mine loaded up on crap stocks in the Spring, thinking that the attention span of the average American was so short that they would rally big. He was right, I was wrong. On the bright side, though, he is unemployed and I am not. Interesting metaphor, if you think about it.
"A good friend of mine loaded up on crap stocks in the Spring"
During the boom, cash was trash. Now, trash is cash.... If you sell fast enough.
Absolutely, totally premature.
They think it's over and it's not.
I couldn't agree more. Many of us bears (and yeah, I'm among them) expected things to completely crater in the spring. And now a lot of bulls think that all of our problems have been successfully swept under the rug.
But everything takes longer than it should.
"Only a hand full of people know what it really means, and they're scared."
The China Syndrome
YouTube - The China Syndrome - Original Trailer 1979
All we need now is a major Wall Street exec saying "As long as the music is playing you gotta dance", and the reversion to 2007 will be complete.
So we don't have to raise the debt ceiling after all?
I think it is a good time for the U.S. to sell CitiGroup shares, before they are back on the dollar value menu at McDonald's.
I loved this from Jesse today:
So, when Obama chides the Wall Street wiseguys in stern terms to 'do the right thing,' one can forgive us if we hear, in echoes from the back of the room, "do this" and "get bent."
He may as well walk into the aftermath of a vicious bank robbery and say to the perps with cash still in hand, "Now you boys stop doing that this minute. This is the fifth time you have stolen money and endangered lives of innocent people. You can keep the money this one last time, but you had better not do it again.
Sheriff Summers and Deputy Tim,who you all know so well from drinking with them after hours at your clubs, will come and stop you if you do. And remember that Bennie the Bookie has his eye on you. By the way, Rahm says thanks for all the presents, as always."
Bennie the Bookie. Awesome.
This is just for the press. Citi isn't in any way shape or form solvent--they'll just sneak the money back in through the Federal Reserve, and then hopefully sell bonds next year, which they probably won't be able to. Nice to see Germany selling their bonds in US dollars
MP is right. What kind of idiot would unload the voting shares and keep the guarantee liabilities in place?
Pretty soon all countries will start selling their bonds in US dollars
If we sell the entire stake in CitiGroup at current market prices, that will cover the U.S. budget deficit for more than a week!
B. Eason (profile) wrote on Mon, 9/14/2009 - 5:13 pm
reply ignore user
Pretty soon all countries will start selling their bonds in US dollars
What was that about usd losing reserve status and going into the toilet?
You mean FedHedge might make a profit on this?
A week is better than nothing.
No. no really. Loan Germany good money, and they'll pay you back in bad money, I mean in USDs.
What was that about usd losing reserve status and going into the toilet?
Poic the Germans are doing it exactly b/c the dollar is going into the toilet.
I myself am trying to figure out what to lever up on as well, with a nice fixed 30 year.
I would think you would NOT want other countries issuing bonds denominated in your currency.
Just for the record, it does not make me feel good to say these things.
I hope to God I'm wrong, but don't think so.
If they pay you back in usd that creates demand for usd when the bonds come due.
Just the same as when we had dollar strengthening when us denominated assets were being paid back during the deleveraging cycle last year.
"If they pay you back in usd that creates demand for usd when the bonds come due."
Do you know how long the term was?
This German bonds in US$ thing makes my brain ache. It seems like a bet forecast based on a bet forecast based on a bet forecast, or something.
Stop the plane, I want to get off here in mid-pacific, somewhere between Midway and Guam.
Brix - I tend to agree with broward's customarily acid comment the other night - load up on Northern Virginia and Montgomery County MD real estate. There are structural factors keeping it high, and the gov / K-Street bubble will keeping pushing it up.
My place will be free in a month. Not that it's mine. Surely there's some way of going naked long on it...
C
Demand for the dollar will be short lived, so you may see rallies, but they'll only last for hours because of the carry over
US credit shrinks at Great Depression rate prompting fears of double-dip recession
Both bank credit and the M3 money supply in the United States have been contracting at rates comparable to the onset of
the Great Depression since early summer, raising fears of a double-dip recession in 2010 and a slide into debt-deflation.
Better get the printing presses going faster Ben
But the German's have a large store of USDs becasue of the trade inbalances
See? Poic? Dead money in banks.
The German's have also had I think 3 failed bond markets now, so it looks like they are approaching a debt wall; but there are plenty of USDs floating around
"Better get the printing presses going faster Ben "
That won't help if the banks won't lend. Need more
Sm_landlord it's a 3 year bond
UPDATE 2-New German dollar bond heavily oversubscribed By Reuters
Who's been eating MY porridge, err, money.
I feel totally hopeless to protect my savings (in cash).
waaaaaah!
[diaper just got full]
Money the banks won't lend is dead.
No zombie icon yet?
the US should only sell its shares if it also gets out of the the guarantee of the 306 billion.. If you are on the hook for 306 billion what is 35 billion more? But at least if the tax payer has an equity stake they stand to recoup any losses on the 306 billion.
Instead of just outright dumping their dollar reserves, the Germans are going to unwind it over time. This is what Stiglitz had warned that the world should crefully and slowly unwind the dollar as the reserve currency
That's okay, IMHO this'll all come to a head before those bonds mature.
pigged from last thread for Lobbyist Ben Dover on the protests:
I wouldn't agree with your characterization of this as a "tax protest" -- check out these signs -- there's something unusual here that's not captured by your rather bland description.
(That said, there is an energy here that seems to make a lot of politicos want to either run to the front of the crowd and claim to be leading them, or write them all off as beyond-the-pale-wackos. Either course is perilous.)
"it's a 3 year bond"
Thank for the link. That says a lot about the nature of their bet. They last did this four years ago. Wonder how that worked out? On the new one, it look to price later today or tomorrow. Maybe Bond Girl can tell us what "mid-swaps less 25 basis points" means...
Why exactly has AIG went from $6.60 to $41.40? BAC went from $2.25 to $17.22. Merrill was such a great buy for BAC? How many 10s of billions are we losing on the automakers? How many stocks of bankrupt companies are still trading and rising? Lehman is trading at .15 with a low of .01 and good volume. Insanity.
Don't ask, just buy in and get the 300%+ return. If Citi was going to tumble or fail then the government would be buying more/guaranteeing more. Since they want to sell then there is some upside coming and Citi will soar. Maybe the churn is missing and they attribute that to the government shares holding back volatility. Who knows. You place your money and take the bet.
The Canadian Payroll Association survey says not only are the majority of Canadians living paycheque-to-paycheque, but they have little ability to put money away for their retirement. The survey, released Monday, said 59 per cent of Canadians would have trouble making ends meet if they missed a paycheque.
"We were surprised that people were that close to the line," said Patrick Culhane, president and CEO of the not-for-profit association.
The article requested is no longer available.
Canada unemployment is 8.7%. Mexico unemployment is 5.7%(huh?) and the US stands at 9.7% U3. The US is both countries major trading partner and they have a lower unemployment rate? Shouldn't our poor economy drag down theirs in a ripple effect ? Trying hard to lose the US centric examination of economics and look in our geographic area for signs of how bad this is from outside a finance sector POV.
Canada is rich in commodities and Mexico is rich in cheap labor. What role will the US population fill going forward? Providing retail to each other and managing assets seems to be on the way out.
that Mayan end-of-calendar thing is seeming more predictive each day.
LawyerLiz, hope you see this (got pigged). He's mostly gone but left a lot of, shall we say, obligations behind. I don't really want his furniture or the clothes in the closets but I've yet to change the locks. Going to give him one more chance to make amends but I can't really force him to take or pay for anything.
If nothing else this episode proves no good deed goes unpunished. Oh, and some people are just arseholes.
I'm out for a bit but again, hope you see this. Going to meet a friend to ignore the world and watch football of the stupid American kind.
It's actually an exercise in futility to really figure out how the tax payer is going to make any money from the bailouts, much less even get their money back. There's no way that the "stress test" banks are going to make it, at least not all 19 of them.
US rates are lower than those in Euro and the dollar is expected to weaken. Whats not to like about borrowing in dollars? Takes pressure of their domestic market which lowers rates for German borrowings in Euros. Only problem is what do they do with the dollars that they have borrowed? If you sell them to buy Euros that puts more upward pressure on the Euro in the short run which I think the Germans would like to avoid. Perhaps they can use the money to meet their foreign aid commitments plus pay for their troops in Afghanistan.
Those signs were scary.
Except the babies against taxes. . . that was cute.
USA thunkin about sellin citi shares
yeah right more like citi is pullin puppet strings
my mind always traces the way thru the maze
by drawing two pencil lines
one from finish and one from start
and seeing if i can get the two to meet in the middle
in this case the finish side of the puzzle is that the citi fat cats want control of the cash cow
solvent or not
so the big bonuses can start flowing again
just re name citi ...shitti and be done with it
Here's a real black swan event. Federer blew a 2 set lead in the French open and also pulled a serena Williams along the way.
I'm too old to move somewhere else and start over.
Anyway, I begin to miss the US when I'm away too long.
So, I'm ordering more concrete.
Banks may buy German treasuries denominated in dollars to either fund the carry over, or do it themselves. The Germans can dump some of their dollar reserves by paying interest on their bonds. What the German's do with the dollars will depend on which political party wins the upcoming elections, and how many seats are taken or held, and how the political coalitions form
B. Eason (profile) wrote on Mon, 9/14/2009 - 5:33 pm
reply ignore user
It's actually an exercise in futility to really figure out how the tax payer is going to make any money from the bailouts, much less even get their money back. There's no way that the "stress test" banks are going to make it, at least not all 19 of them.
It's kind of like the public school system. No one fails and everyone is special.
What I frequently tell my clients:
Some money is better than no money.
How old do bonds have to be before they can vote?
Barney Frank wants to make an appointment to see the Fed's books sometime in Octoberish, and Hey Zeus C. Bernanke says that it would collapse the dollar. Can we assume there must be some bad stuff there? What happened to all the banks buying back their stuff from the Fed because of big profits? And since when does the FBI have to make an appointment to raid a suspected fraud and counterfeiting operation? Hello Ben, this is the FBI. Can we get together for lunch when you get your books in order? How about Haloween? How does that work for you? Great! Serf and Turfffd? You got it!
Ok, that 35b windfall can be printed up and
ed around.
Or, how many mtges would that pay off, or bring current?
How many ccs paid off?
424 guests on line...sheesh
if i had looked before...i would have cleaned up my language
to the bankstas i say efemol
not a bad word
its a new kind of fuel distilled from financial flatulence
At some point the US will have only 2 choices: default or face a currency crisis. The only way the banks and the government can get themselves out of this mess without risking a collapse is to get extremely high GDP growth that can greatly outstrip the growth of debt; and I don't see that happening--actually I don't foresee any GDP growth beyond government spending.
A government breakdown, either at the Federal or State level is a real possibility next year--it's going to suck living in the suburbs then.
I can second that, poic.
Don't miss this!
"Note for Note: The Building of Steinway #L1039" on PBS at 10:00 Eastern.
There are a few businesses in this country that still have their **** together.
"At Steinway, we do not build pianos to a price point. We build them to perfection."
More 9/12er pictures (slide show).
4 and #18 are kinda indicative that this was a multi-themed gathering of discontents.
B. Eason:
I figure if a state default happens, Michigan would be the first to go, followed by RI.
A
in musical instruments?
Or California
Maybe all 3
I was gonna ask that, Nuke.
RI?
I find your lack of faith disturbing, poic.
They will choke the life out of the eCONomy before they'll let the "special" fail.
YouTube - Vader Chokes Officer - "I find your lack of faith disturbing"
Bernanke says that it would collapse the dollar.
Link, please! I'd love to see that.
Now there's a poll for you. Which state goes down first?
""At Steinway, we do not build pianos to a price point. We build them to perfection."
Ever played one? They're pretty sweet. We had 7' and 9' concert grands where I used to work.
oh, oh. dominoes falling. can't have that. start the carpet bombing to bring peace.
California will be bailed out. Michigan has been depressed for years, and RI is, well, inconsequential. But California's default would have too much of an effect on America's psyche.
Liz:
RI has monstrous unemployment, a retiree crisis, and no prospects for a viable economy. It has been the sick man of New England for years.
California has just become comical at this point. I got an IOU on my state tax return, and the funny things is that the state won't even take their own IOUs
Well that's very sad. Patrick Swayze died after a 20 month very courageous battle with pancreatic cancer.
What about invading Canada? They have oil and gold and hydro electric power.
"Don't ask, just buy in and get the 300%+ return. If Citi was going to tumble or fail then the government would be buying more/guaranteeing more. Since they want to sell then there is some upside coming and Citi will soar. Maybe the churn is missing and they attribute that to the government shares holding back volatility. Who knows. You place your money and take the bet."
I recall discussing the likely path of future stock prices when 401k's were taking off, back in the 1980's. My argument was that the govt would step in and effectively underpin the stock market to ensure that the boomers did well. That support would be a nice subtle, primarily intergenerational, tax that most people won't even recognize for what it is. My satisfaction at being right is a little muted by the sheer selfishness and underhandedness of the successful execution of the plan. I also didn't fully anticipate the application of the same type of intergenerational tax to home prices. The moral of the lesson is: My generation (the boomers) can screw you young folks six ways to Sunday, and there is nothing you can do about it!
DCRogers,
Tea Parties are based on tax protest. Who shows up and has other axes to grind are part of the free speech process. No signs like that at the one I went to but there was a lot of talk about religion and dislike for Obama. Not everybody. I would say there where just as many Bush haters at all kinds of rallies when he was in office. What makes this any different? The silent majority is no longer staying silent? The country is not happy with his promises and actions. Lots have voters remorse as stated by many here. Stay tuned for more.
He looked dreadful. Probably a mercy.
RIP
California tried to get a bailout from President Obama, he told us no. But hey, our budget deficit will probably only be like $60 billion. That's like pocket bailout money for B of A.
Swayze died? That's unfortunate. His new cable series (The Beast) wasn't half bad.
"The China Syndrome"
gee, mp, you really know how to cheer a guy up.
"California will be bailed out."
I hold to my original forecast of October.
The Federal government can bailout California, but we'll never stop spending in this state--our politicians will give a defiant "never"
"Ever played one?"
Whenever I'm in New York, I always walk by Steinway Hall and look in the window.
I'm afraid to go in. I know that, if I do go in, I'll end up signing for something I really can't afford.
My Yamaha will have to suffice.
States are "Sovereign" under the 10th amendment, right? CA should just seize BOA assets on CA branches of BOA.
Speaking of state fiscal crises:
ALBANY -- While short of the 4,500 people it was expecting, the state Budget Division has announced that 1,089 people will be getting one-time $20,000 buyouts to leave the state payroll in a cost-cutting measure.
State officials, however, stressed that with another 2,633 off the payroll due to attrition and a hiring freeze they are on track to reach their goal of saving $260.3 million in personnel costs over the next two years.
State lauds buyouts; unions want more -- Page 1 -- Times Union - Albany NY
patientrenter:
Which is?
Some days I kick back and look at the USA as a leveraged equity buy out. Gonna suck when the hard assets are seized. Course it will be called privatization.
Gotta go, ignored the real world too much today. g'night
The problem with California is that it's a sprawl in its housing. In any crisis the government understandably wants to centralize all services and limit the range of providing those services. We have so many suburbs, I'm not sure how they'll get adequate sewage, trash, and police/medical service--probably have to round them up in Katrina camps or something. Better buy a good rucksack and fill it up if you want to avoid that
"Which is?"
Gotta help me, Nuke. I am not sure what my choices are. (i.e. What's your question?)
patientrenter:
What is your original prediction for October? Default, collapse, etc.
mp;
"My Yamaha will have to suffice. "
I settled for a Yamaha KX-88 and a Kurzweil sound module for piano. Can't justify the space, the climate control, etc.
"What is your original prediction for October? Default, collapse, etc."
Federal bailout for California.
Well, I guess we in California could shut down most of these useless Law School we have in California, and shut down many of these Community Colleges and Cal States--seeing as many of them aren't taking new students for the spring
Asia's not buying the surge of great news today. Futures not looking that wholesome, Nikki up bouncing off the open a little, HK and Singapore still looking well elmo for the open.
Maybe Nikki analysts are reading the Yamaha vs Steinway comments...
C
Very happy to see Cuomo suing BoA execs for raping their shareholders, and the federal judge exposing the political game going on between the govt and BoA execs, also to rape the shareholders.
"Can't justify the space, the climate control, etc."
All of their grands are beautiful, but the Model D is, without a doubt, one of the most exquisite things ever made by man.
If I only knew how, I would make love to it.
mp:
All you need is a DeWalt power drill, an appropriate sized bit, some fine grain sandpaper, and a can of WD-40.
First you must remove the G-string...
Does anyone find it a conflict of interest that Tim Geithner has a bet, that is probably a huge portion of his life savings, on an asset class that he is pulling every string to re-inflate?
Problem with these "voluntary redundancies" is that any talent takes the money and runs (they're confident they can find other employment), while the deadwood digs in deeper, knowing they'll never get another sweet deal like they've got.
Hope the low response rate is a measure of the middling size of the payoff, and not of an already dismal talent/deadwood ratio. (Soon to be even more depleted...)
You funny man!
And, On Elizabeth Duke's suggestion to ignore market prices:
"Duke believes the loan should be valued based on future cash flow (considering the creditworthiness and capacity of the borrower). However if the business model is based on trading mortgage loans, then she believes the loan should be valued based on fair market prices."
Well, Elizabeth, I think you might have some credibility if you were making loud public statements about the overvaluation of loan assets in 2006 because of very shaky collateral. Were you?
You want doom in America? You want hope-less? You want to read about your country crashing and burning? You can't stand Fox News? Try this:
I saw the cars hit the field and I laughed. I felt good. No more dicking around with containment and gently moving them along. It was time to dance, and the BAR led off with a backbeat that was as steady as anything that came out of Muscle Shoals back in the day.They may have been predators back in the "hood" but they didn't have a clue about driving in wet Virginia clay. Especially in front wheel drive Hondas with low clearance. I saw the lead car drivers face contort as he fought the wheel. I saw his face change as he realized that perhaps this was not such a good idea after all. I confirmed that for him by splattering his head all over his buddy riding shotgun. Then I walked the next three rounds across the passenger windows.
American Apocalypse
DCRogers:
Hope the low response rate is a measure of the middling size of the payoff, and not of an already dismal talent/deadwood ratio. (Soon to be even more depleted...)
You've never been to NYS, have you?
Bailing out California would certainly herald the beginning of the end. The only bigger case of government fraud & abuse is DC itself.
we in California could shut down most of these useless Law School we have in California
Our law schools are profit centers. How can you go wrong on 35-40k a semester plus books and no wetlab or real research to pay for?
Bail California and you must bail them all...
My wife bought a pair shoes Sunday that were handmade in America for a reasonable price. Very good leather also.
Paul Reed Smith makes very nice guitars in Md.
This country does do somethings well. But yeah, we are toast.
nova:
Making stuff is hard. Selling houses/securities is easy. We're done.
nova - you'll need to explain quite carefully how that paragraph differs from a Fox News interview transcript. Some of us are a bit slow.
C
C,
That is because you are not a native. Fox would never work Muscle Shoals into a sentence with back beat
Sad to say, as a chemist, but chemistry classes (esp. labs) are every college's nightmare. Huge equipment cost, constant EPA hassle, liability insurance issues, special building codes, fire codes, expensive chemicals, and worst -- ungrateful alumni who don't earn enough to donate -- what's not to hate?
Give me a law student with a $50K/year student lifetime debt contract (oops, I mean loan) anyday.
I vote Arizona- but that is based on a bit of inside information.
Actually informed guessing- somebody could beat us.
We need a bailout, again, and pronto.
Someday this war's gonna end...
"Bail California and you must bail them all... "
Nope, we'll get there first, and they'll be nothing left. Mega sorry, dudes and dudettes!
Citizen AllenM:
Were you guys bailed out without telling us?
We were in Lancaster, PA this weekend. A nice town. I checked on houses in Lancaster. There are over 4,000 for sale. No, this is not over and the banks are not back in the money.
Like, Dude, sorry for bogarting the bailout.
Bummer, man.
OT:
TOKYO (MarketWatch) -- Japanese Prime Minister-designate Yukio Hatoyama has tapped Hirohisa Fujii to serve as finance minister in his administration, Japanese media reported Tuesday.
Fujii is an ex-ministry official who also served as finance minister in 1993-1994, the last time the Democratic Party of Japan pushed the long-ruling Liberal Democratic Party from power. Fujii was formerly head of the DPJ's tax panel.
While he has called for discussing a tax-rate increase -- which led some to label him as a fiscal conservative -- the DPJ has ruled out raising taxes in the next four years.
In his 10 months as finance minister, Fujii permitted the Ministry of Finance to directly intervene in currency markets through the Bank of Japan in order to stem the yen's rise against the dollar, sometimes in joint action with the U.S.
Fujii tapped to be Japan finance minister - MarketWatch
"I checked on houses in Lancaster. There are over 4,000 for sale."
Larry told Tim to tell Sheila to send over some people to Lancaster. They'll be educating the local branch of the NAR on how to market no money down, no recourse home loans. Maybe letting some of the good folks know that Chris and Barney won't let a little loan mod down the road hurt their future credit.
patientrenter,
Going to be a lot of that going around. I have no idea if it is true or not but this must be poison for 1,000's of small towns. All the "For Sale" signs I saw out in rural PA. Wal-mart killed the shopkeepers and the bankers wiped out the townspeople.
"The only bigger case of government fraud & abuse is DC itself."
If by that you mean the District itself, rather than the Federal Government, I was surprised. I had to do some in depth analysis of some DC municipal stuff. Came out just fine.
I like small towns, nova. But if you charted the home prices in Lancaster over the last 4 decades, adjusted for CPI inflation, would the new prices really be desperately low, or just returning to their long term mean? And if they did return to their long term mean, wouldn't that be great for young people in those towns, helping to keep them there versus moving into a 400 sq ft shit-hole in NYC?
OT,
for the knurds...
what is the < p > & # xxx ; < / p >
¿
Infinity symbol ?
patientrenter,
I think they have a ways to fall. I hope they continue. My daughter asked me twice "What do people do out here to make a living?"
Maybe the Amish will be able to buy some more land. I hope the houses become affordable there. It would be a good place to raise a family.
No, I meant the feds.
"It would be a good place to raise a family."
I agree. And, for all the doom and gloom we like to revel in (or wallow in) here at CR, dramatically improved communications technology and changed types of work make it much more possible for work to be dispersed into small towns like this. If we make it easy and affordable for young folks to get nice homes in good communities like this, we will have a much more sustainable economy than if everyone runs off to NYC and dreams of milking others for a few million through abuse of our banking and financial system.
nova:
Walmart/free trade also killed off a lot of the small manufacturers in these towns. The smart move for many of these folks is to get on government transfer payments (SSI, foodstamps, etc). I wouldn't fault them, either. The same economists that told us that unregulated financial markets were OK and that Greenspan was the Maestro also convinced us that trading with mercantilists was beneficial for all. Look where that got us. The smart play is too extract as much from the government as possible before the house of cards collapses.
I am usually not this negative. The Obama Wall Street speech today put me in a very bad mood.
nova,
Did you remove my recent comment over at AA?
tj,
I don't know how to remove comments. I have not figured out how to edit my own after I post them. Plus I would not do that.
I was going to comment to that effect - DC city graft and corruption seems notable by its relative rarity. The best-reported scheme recently was the skimming / tax rebate operation, which turned out to be so brazen the ringleaders had actually named their fence company "Bilkmore".
Must have gotten some chuckles in Chicago.
C
Can the Bills snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
LSBF
nuke,
I don't think everyone wants to live on the dole. I hope not.
nova,
Cool. I must've just not posted it properly. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't offended (although I doubted it would).
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
But people on the dole tend to be docile no? As long as they keep getting "their due" they are not likely to question those who rain down the largesse on them are they? In fact they are likely to go out and vote in support of whichever govt officials have seen fit to provide them with "money for nothing and chicks for free"...
/snark off
"The Obama Wall Street speech today put me in a very bad mood."
Nuke, I guessed that Obama would give a speech today that would either
a. Harvest the maximum personal and partisan political benefit from the financial market rescue and the incipient GDP recovery, or
b. Begin to lay out genuinely new and meaningful actions to limit the possibility of a new bubble
I thought the odds of (a) were about 90%, and (b) was maybe 10%. How did I do?
Edit: And If GW Bush had been giving the speech, the odds of (a) and (b) would have been 100% and 0%, respectively.
tj,
I doubt you could offend me. I would take any negative comment from you as constructive.
\infinity
The symbol for mathematical infinity: ∞. Some Web browsers are not able to render the HTML representation of this symbol properly, but support is growing.
nova:
It is the smart move. Get on the dole and work in the grey economy.
patientrenter:
Jesse had a very good summary:
Jesse's Café Américain
.......in a nutshell, can anyone tell me what President Obama said? I refuse to listen to the man anymore - it's not good for my blood pressure.
nuke,
I think I understand. Yet, I sat with an old lady in some tiny town fruit stand and listened as she schooled me in vegtables, starch, and how to use cider with venison. I had forgotten about the other America. It isn't a bad place.
blackstar:
NPR carried large portions of the speech. Basically, Wall Street needs to learn from its mistakes and lend money to help America grow. Crap, basically.
At this point, speeches, hearing, etc are useless and stupid. Obama, if he had real balls, would just send in the investigators and let the whole sordid mess get fleshed out in depositions, arraignments and trials.
Yeah,
I couldn't bear listening to Clinton, of course
I couldn't stand Bush, and now I find myself turning off O when
there is a snippet of his voice.
I guess I just can't stand listening to ly. . .err, presidents.
That would be transparency and holding people responsible. Where did I hear that before?
I research a number of states' finances. I don't think AZ will be the first to fail. In the current environment, the state with the fastest outward migration collapses first. When last I checked, that was CA. FL is a close second.
Florida has interesting dynamics. It probably has the largest number of retired people who can live wherever they want.
They are giving it a run for the money, Juvenal.
It probably has the largest number of retired people who can live wherever they want.
As in North Carolina
Fl is a mess, true, but is trying to balance the budget. Sheesh, only 58k people left.
In the noise.
Nothing new for a LSBF.
"Wall Street needs to learn from its mistakes and lend money to help America grow"
The only mistake that the PTB will admit to is letting Lehman go bankrupt. I think a lot more big banks should have been unceremoniously wound down, but these guys consider even one was a mistake. And the solution to an excess of loose credit is.... more credit.
This is very disappointing. I'd hoped for better. Americans may have many faults, but surely we deserve better economic leadership than this.
Λ
Ξ
Ψ
Its a
Š
imple
Θ
uestion
FL will do fine. Liz, as I understand it most municipalities and counties are holding the line on taxes and cutting spending. That will set them up for future growth. Michigan, NY, CA? Not so much. Those few productive citizens left are being taxed into the dirt.
The only mistake that the PTB will admit to is letting Lehman go bankrupt.
And I still don't even think that was a mistake.
Nuke,
NY is using the hoopajoop model for growth. They will continue to expand govt at all levels and increase taxes to do so. Since more people will be working as govt expands they'll bring in more tax dollars. It's the perfect economic growth plan for the state. More tax dollars will mean more govt jobs = more tax dollars = more govt jobs.
NY really would be better off as two or three separate states.
Mike:
Being a New Yorker, you understand how many people here see absolutely nothing wrong with anything you just said.
"Summers Says U.S. to Have Biggest Financial Change Since 1930s "
Summers Sees Biggest U.S. Financial Change Since ‘30s (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Summers: "the financial market bubbles in the past 20 years have created “too much interference in the lives of people and that has to change.”"
Yeah, we, in conjunction with responsible leaders in Congress like Senator Dodd and Rep Frank will replace the bubble-blowing home financing of the last 20 years with substantial, er, 3.5%, down cheap and easy loans up to a modest, er, $729K. We know how to be responsible. It's all the other idiots who were irresponsible. Fox... henhouse....; frying pan.. fire...; pot... kettle....
Don't explode, Patient.
Um, yeah, we got over a billion.
But, uhhh,well, yes, um, no, uhhh, we need another billion point five;-}
Someday this war's gonna end...
"Don't explode, Patient."
LoL! LL, I am taking my blood pressure medication as we speak. Tastes pretty good. Very red, smooth...
The old people I know don't wanna leave Fla.
My mom is in love. Lately with the clouds and the rain.
Nothing like gorgeous baroque Florida clouds.
liz:
Eventually, God will force them to leave.
Heck, that's nuthin, we got 10 bills just to float our UI fund here in Cali.
"My mom is in love."
How'd your Mom adapt from Baltimore to FL, Liz? Wasn't the hot muggy summer kinda tough on her?
How many of those retirees are dependent upon SS?
I thought a billion was chump change in comparison to what
Cali needs.
Really, Fla is trying hard. Extra billions not fair. Maybe we will invade you and take away. . .
ummm, what is it that we will take away?
LoL! All of the above. My red pill is dark chocolate. Valrhona makes a very good 70% cocoa solid chopped walnut bar.
Too bad, Juvenal.
more 9-12 pics: LaRouchie on Twitpic
Patient, do you know what summer is like in Balto?
It's pretty bad. In fact often it is actually hotter there.
I concede that it is more humid here. She likes it here.
She says it's so pretty. She even likes the rain. Which is
a good thing.
"US discussing selling Citi shares
I once bought some mud pies from my daughter but I never considered taking them and selling them to my friends.
Re: "At $4.50 per share, the U.S. stake is worth almost $35 billion."
I propose that Treasury, enter into a transaction in which a third party is assigned more than three billion Citi shares to LJM Cayman. In return, Treasury will receive promissory notes and a "put" option on shares Citi owns in Paulson Jedi ll. The PJll put option issued by LJM Cayman's subsidiary, LJM Swap Sub, L.P. ("Swap Sub"), and purported to give Citi the right to sell, or put, its PJll shares to Swap Sub for a set price on certain future dates. Because Swap Sub are capitalized primarily with Citi shares, it would be unable to afford to pay Treasury for the put option if its Citi shares fell below a certain price.
The plan is here: Complaint: SEC v. Michael J. Kopper
I bet that girl doesn't know who LaRouche is.
"She likes it here."
Good to hear, LL. And may she enjoy many more good years (and pineapple upside down cakes) with you there.
Good idea... let's take down some AIG tomorrow while we're at it. About $183 billion worth.
You could, sadly, export them to Haiti.
Um, well, oh, ah.
Well, what I know is that we have severe revenue shortfalls, and no ability to borrow.
We do have an outstanding offer from our legislature to privatize our prisons and lease us back our buildings for about a billion.
If you want a consultant to maximize your offer- send me an email- nah on second thought, I know the dummies who will be on the other side of the table- you will be rich- just get a good local lawyer to write the contract.
Someday this war's gonna end...
I guess we're all Haitians now
barfly,
why no HTML markup for the infinity symbol?
How does Az earn money, Allen. Aside from
construction of course.
Some of the more obnoxious pap from Obama's speech:
So I want to urge you to demonstrate that you take this obligation to heart. To put greater effort into helping families who need their mortgages modified under my administration's homeownership plan. To help small business owners who desperately need loans and who are bearing the brunt of the decline in available credit. To help communities that would benefit from the financing you could provide, or the community development institutions you could support. To come up with creative approaches to improve financial education and to bring banking to those who live and work entirely outside the banking system. And, of course, to embrace serious financial reform, not fight it.
Full text of President Obama's speech - MarketWatch
They could market it as a giant garage sale, like California.
Maybe, Nuke, he is setting them up? So when none of this stuff happens,
a big fuss can be made?
Sigh. Prolly not.
Tom Brady is unreal.
Looked like he was deliberately avoiding the post-game ESPN interview. Labor related?
∞
∞ kewil
I urge you to get into the payday loan business.
∞.
now, without cut and paste.
Don't know if this has been discussed...just got this link in my email...what do you guys think of this story?
Are Foreign Purchases of U.S. Treasury Bonds Being Faked?
Don't know anything about the site, so not claiming it is legit...just thought I would run this up the flagpole for discussion...
Who is Tom Brady? A football coach?
As of 9/4, you can mail the IOU to the treasurer's office in Sacramento & get a check including interest. Just sent a client's tax return IOU today. Will be interesting to see how long it takes to get the check.
What's wrong with cut and paste?
We build armaments.
Bombs, armor, missiles, military installations, and retirement farms like Florida.
Plus we have tourists.
A couple of big mines, and government.
That is all, plus the usual healthcare adornments- including a Mayo Hospital and Clinic setup.
Someday this war's gonna end...
How could you tell I was cutting and pasting?
because thats cheating, and that's how I can do it.
having a convention on infinity with Hyper Text Machine Laungage, is like telling Plato, the shadows are real.
Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Bat Boy and Bigfoot were being counted as indirect bidders.
Bond Girl,
Crap, just snorted coffee up my nose and all over the keyboard. That was just mean.
Ill tell ya something else.
if blockquote cite was available- weep for drupal.
Just how does shuttling electrons from one place to another help
anything?
Cite or site?
Goodnight all.
Hey, electrons are people too.
Gee maybe Obama and crew and reading this U.S. IS FINDING ROLE IN BUSINESS HARD TO UNWIND - NY Times and saying we're fucked unless we start to unwind
Between financial rescue missions and the economic stimulus program, government spending accounts for a bigger share of the nation’s economy — 26 percent — than at any time since World War II. The government is financing 9 out of 10 new mortgages in the United States. If you buy a car from General Motors, you are buying from a company that is 60 percent owned by the government.
If you take out a car loan or run up your credit card, the chances are good that the government is financing both your debt and that of your bank.
And if you buy life insurance from the American International Group, you will be buying from a company that is almost 80 percent federally owned.
Is anyone actually buying insurance from AIG.
It appears AIG is actually making money. I think it's less of an illusion than many banks.
Goldman Sachs. I hear it's one of those "Return of Premium" policies.
Nytey-nite.
Coach?
Liz, you're in a football town. I know you have grown kids but think younger, matinee idol.
Liz check the Insurance buyers here
I said g'nite. So just tell me who it is.
And it's all being stashed behind the giant face on the moon.
Vonbek - just ask the auditors, they should know. Or GAO, must be a report coming up given the anniversary of the TARP That Saved Capitalism, For Ever.
C
eye no U saw that Looterliz.
Oh, no, I thought that was forgotten.
Hmm...Bermuda Triangle...mysterious indirect bidders...it can only mean one thing...we've opened a star gate...that must be where all the gold is going too.
Bond Girl (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Mon, 9/14/2009 - 7:37 pm
Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Bat Boy and Bigfoot were being counted as indirect bidders.
It should be noted that neither of those mythical creatures have long tails either.
@ Vonbek777
Ahhh more like an opening to a black hole!
That was most awesome, Dawg.
this goes way beyond "tax protest"
Thanks. I'll put your kind words away in my treasury and likely never take them out again lest they be devalued.
If Treasury books a profit flipping Citi common, does it pay itself taxes at the ordinary rate?
Nice regulatory arbitrage, Timmy. Who said the G-men couldn't beat the street, trader walt. Uncle Buffett has to stay alive for a full year for his tax welfare check and even then you have a huge edge. Just don't game your best shills. The monte dealer has skills, but it's just manual labor. The shill brings the crowd in and creates the confidence.
Well, I am going to have to call it a night. Been waiting for this new hard drive to finish formatting, and now I have to close the beast back up and call it a night. Have a good one, everyone!
Aww.
Uh oh, cue bond ubernerd jokes. Shall I compare thine smile to a widening spread?
Further fun keywords for the folks at home:
yield
curve
straddle
And if you can get swaption in, then HomeGnome should be asked to handicap you +/- 1 for BFF.
C
"It appears AIG is actually making money."
I heard the administration's next plan is to mandate private life insurance as part of the phase out of social security. You heard it here first.
Nova:
I'm just checking in and then hitting the sheets, but if really interested in Lancaster, drop me a note at my homepage and I can give some tips.
I'm going to retire and try not to think of mp with a DeWalt, Sandpaper and wd-40.
G-string? Classic.
Bond ubernerds? I'm convexed. What basis do you have for making these points?
You are on a roll!
A bonding moment? Should we translate for those who got off the curve at the mezzanine before they dig a tranche and toss us in?
LOL. I knew you wouldn't fade my comment.
C
Yeah, we should be more mature.
Gee, CR, what a counterparty pooper.
C
You two should get covered before you rollover each other.
Bond Girl (profile) wrote on Mon, 9/14/2009 - 8:12 pm
Yeah, we should be more mature.
Winner, winner. Chicken dinner. We've had fund but now it's closed.
Like a couple of ten year olds.
Yeah, we should be more mature
-like this twit
was this part of the "love" you felt while being there, shill?
shill, are you michael? Do you still have your bullhorn? That was a great photo of you