Time for a little credit score grade inflation?

YLSP,

OT: My dog suggests that she go out for a nature break, but I'll read this: Link to report is here

Link to report is here

Nature calls...

The next question is whether GM or Chrysler can be called a “financial institution” under
EESA. The language of the statute itself does not provide a clear answer. Although the statute
provides a list of entities that may be considered “financial institutions,” including such patently
“financial” institutions as banks, savings associations, and credit unions, it states that the
universe of what may be considered a “financial institution” includes but is “not limited to” those
on the list. The ambiguity of this list presents a challenge in determining what types of
institutions absent from the list may still be considered within the statute‟s purview.

Last two times I purchased a new car, I paid cash. Does that affect FICO one way or another, I wonder. Anybody know? I should know this, I used to work for FairIsaac.

If, in the future, anyone wants to sell on credit, they will have to extend
it to people with low scores, because that is all there will be.

Can you imagine somebody wigged out by their credit score in 1932?

Welcome, Brave New World

Ruthless default = (Total saved in mortgage payments) > (Increased future borrowing costs due to ruthless defaulting)

My cousin recently short-saled her underwater house. Between getting it ready for sale, fee that the bank extracted and the realtor's commission, it was a push as to wether or not she would have been better off letting it go into foreclosure.

"Ruthless default"...isn't that what the financial elites did when they lost their money due to stupid mistakes and then got congress to bail them out on the backs of the American taxpayer. There isn't an ounce of credibility left in the credit system and everyone knows it.

lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Sun, 9/13/2009 - 10:25 am

If, in the future, anyone wants to sell on credit, they will have to extend
it to people with low scores, because that is all there will be.

They'll have to lend to people with low scores because they'll be the only ones willing to borrow. For all the wealth destruction it still seems there is more money looking for returns than borrowing looking for funding. That's not universal as banks are in the process of killing commercial lending. I recently loaned a local business at what I considered usurious rates bridge funding that was collateralized against October receipts. The wine business is cyclical and this would have been a no brainer for any bank even last year. Not that i mind swapping a 120 day CD <2% for double digit returns but it illustrates just how dysfunctional lending has become.

For what it's worth...

The time spent elsewhere 51 weeks a year when Burning Man isn't happening is referred to by Burners, as...

"The Default World"

@ Nuke:

re: Tests & Exams

There are constitutional cases that heavily restrict the use of written exams to decide employment and promotions. The old argument was that minorities were at a disadvantage when taking written exams, and the threat was enough to remove their use outside of highly technical fields. I think this year, there was a ruling that started the trend against reverse discrimination (aka majority discrimination) because minorities were getting promotions when they were clearly underperforming on the written exams. It had become so systemic that the white firemen wanted to know why they were getting passed over when everything being equal sans better test scores, minorities were getting the jobs.

Tests & Exams may make a return, but there are enough legal hurdles that it will be a slow march.

Griggs v. Duke Power

I think that buying for cash may have no effect--since credit's not involved, the transaction may not exist as far as FICO's concerned.

A friend who had owned her home for years (mortgage paid off probably in early '80's) & had only purchased motor vehicles for cash, no credit cards, had no credit record at all. When she got divorced, needed a new (as in newer used) car, her employer co-signed the car loan for her. Otherwise she wouldn't have gotten a loan, even though she'd had a checking & savings account for years & hadn't bounced any checks.

As soon as she got the car loan, she got some credit card offers, and I suggested she allege whatever information she needed to get a credit card & use it twice a year, pay off the balance, build a credit record. So now she has a credit record & when she had to replace the first used vehicle she was able to get a loan without recourse to a co-signer.

So, Dawg, if the Booj doesn't sell, you get to drink your collateral- well, there are worse things.

Trolling craigslist for a cheap vinotemp.

Gonna pickup a cheap one for under a k.

Someday this war's gonna end...

I Schweiked last week @ a drive-thru in Reno...

The person they don't allow to handle money (please pay at the 1st window, and pull up to the 2nd for your food) told me cheerfully "Have A Nice Day"

I cheerfully told her I had other plans

Corporate "free speech" is strictly in its own interest, which is maximizing profits for it's shareholders, often at the expense of the environment, labor, and other broader interests. In addition, it would allow foreign entities a measure of influence in our political process.

Sometimes I wonder if the Spanish had a Mission Statement, when they were in California in the 18th Century?

One more pharaoh to inter,
One more empty sepulcher -
Those who steal the pharaoh’s gold
Themselves will turn to dust and mold -

Sooner or later Congress with mandate that credit scores not use FC and shortsales in their calculations. Probably with the support of banks as well.

Maybe, maybe not.

What Congress is more likely to do is prohibit use of credit data in employment.

Too many people are getting denied work opportunities because of bad credit.

Ok, one last thing(as usual)

Treasury must provide more detail about Treasury‟s corporate governance policies with
respect to the automotive companies,510 including how the government will deal with
conflicts of interest between its role as an equity holder or creditor and as regulator. In
addition, Treasury should establish policies prohibiting Treasury employees from
accepting employment with either company for a period of at least one year following the
termination of their employment at Treasury.

For example, Bush/Paulson connected people will end up running the automotive companies with Goldman and the American dream will continue, as citizens sleep.

Yes, can be on topic at times...

Just received a newsletter from local friends/realtors summarizing the effect of a foreclosure or short sale. Some key notes:

Foreclosure - Ineligble for a Fannie Mae loan for 5 years if a primary residence; 7 years for Fannie Mae-backed investor loan.
. . . For other than Fannie Mae loans, standard loan application form 1003 asks if you had property foreclosed in past 7 years, which will impact future interest rates
. . . Foreclosure lowers credit score by 200-250 points and persists for an average of 3 years.

Short Sale - Ineligible for a Fannie Mae loan for 2 years
. . . Currently no short-sale related question on form 1003
. . . Effect on FICO is variable - estimates range from 50 to 200 points. - Depends greatly on how lender reports it.

I am expecting Federal regulation to change the credit scoring system.

If they are making good changes, it would include: 1. Allowing consumers to close accounts with zero balances which have been current for at least 12 months with no effect on their credit score. Putting this provision in the current calculation has lead to a de facto exit penalty for closing accounts. The accounts consumers are most likely to want to make sure they want to close out are ones where they have received poor treatment. 2. Having it take longer before people with no outstanding credit also have no credit score.

Of course, I'm concerned the opposite will happen. Foreclosures might get downgraded to less of an effect.

"I like to advance towards a retreat a couple of times a year..."

Bravo!

I am also in the last category.

We have to make a final decision by early 2011 because the tax forgiveness of a mortgage default expires in 2012. My spreadsheet says we will be underwater until 2019, but we were planning to stay in this house that long so it is a dilemma. The kids will probably tip us into staying and eating the losses.

I hate that Orwellian "Jobless Recovery" gibberish, in lieu of it... I propose

"Snow-Job Recovery"

"I have no sympathy for those getting their credit scores clobbered by poor money management."

Gee, one might come to the conclusion that the FICO score is supposed to gauge someone's ability to manage their credit.

Did anyone watch "Troy Story" last night. 19-year old Barkley drove the Trojans over 80 years in the final minutes to score a come from behind victory over Ohio State in the Shoe. His second college game out of high school, he defeats an angry mob of Buckeyes.

An amazing talent out of the OC.

More on cash payers: you are guilty of bad credit until you prove yourself innocent by using credit.

Allen M and Rob,

craigslist | Page Not Found

250 + bottle for $950.

Good one Mike.

craigslist | Page Not Found

$2/bottle. 100 bottles, $200.

This is like plotting median home prices over time.

I pay cash for almost everything, and pay off my credit card every month. If credit card providers want to base my access to credit on how much profit they will make from me, rather than just how certainly I will repay them, then that's fine with me. That's their prerogative. (I don't recall there being a constitutional right to equal credit.) Of course, a big determinant of their future profit is the likelihood of repayment, something that's becoming more important now, not less.

However, for institutions backstopped by the govt, the repayment issue is not an issue, of course, so they are likely to change their procedures to downplay the importance of prior failures to repay loans. This seems to have happened already, since there is no other rational explanation why a short sale's effect on your credit should be limited to a mere 2 years (as picosec reports FNM and FRE are doing). I suspect the credit rules for FNM and FRE and FHA and even many of the banks hooked up to the govt easy credit machine are being written in Chris Dodd's and Barney Frank's offices.

Limited to 2 years? I thought it was 3.

Ok, that's a reason for a short sale. Frankly, I've always thought
it would be better to just stay there as long as possible, if your
credit was ruined anyway.

Very dark and gloomy here in allegedly sunny Fla.

SNAFU-

'England followed the US and got rid of jobs that made their hands dirty and kept the high finance crooks with soiled souls. Time to get back to basic, there and here. Self sustaining economics."

That's a great theory but having just spent the weekend in Mumbai, India, we're competing with a nation with 1 billion people, 40% of whom live on $2/day or less. There are adding 750 million people by 2050. And we're competing with that.

So....any other ideas?

He'll be back. What's he drinking in lieu of wine?

I just made a rum and coke. Haven't had one for ages.

My daughter gave me an ice cube tray last b'day.

Shapes of Titanics and icebergs.

Like these Liz?
GIN & TITONIC ICE CUBE TRAY

Exactly!!

"I try to not do free stuff. Why shouldn't they?"

I'll let Jim answer for himself, LL, but I'll offer a comment to help explain why attitudes like this are common here. Relatively few commenters on this board believe that an economic system can function well under the primary guidance of Adam Smith's invisible hand. So the notion that, if there is little profit in a commercial activity, it is probably not very socially useful or necessary, is not accepted by most commenters here.

Lots of other cute cubes on that site too gnomester. The bergs should have been bigger and fatter.

Yeah, you'd think the 2% was enough motivation.

If I have the most recent guidelines, Fannie Mae will consider extenuating circumstances which will reduce the foreclosure impact timeframe. True hardship such as job loss, reduced pay or significant medical problem should reduce the ineligibility for a Fannie Mae to 3 years.

Ruthless default will be the 5 years, or until guidelines change.

https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/guides/ssg/annltrs/pdf/2008/0816.pdf

"reduced pay"

So if you overstated income to get the loan, then you just show your actual income. If you gave your actual income to get the loan, then you just understate it now. With the political overseers of FNM and FRE and FHA and banks etc all looking for ways to reduce the impact of foreclosures on borrowers, I can see how this is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.

azurite, I was answering LL's comment about high rates on credit card debt. Your point is different. You are saying (I think) that significant numbers of financially secure people are losing their last credit card. I wasn't aware of this, and it seems very odd. Why would credit card companies cut off their customers completely?

FTR:

Following is the basic FHA loan qualification guidelines.

* Two Years of steady employment, preferably with same employer.

* Last two years Income should be the same or increasing.

* Credit report should typically have less than two thirty day lates in last two years with a minimum credit score of 580 or higher or no credit score at all.

* Bankruptcy's must be at least two years old, with perfect credit since discharge.

Stiglitz Says Banking Problems Are Now Bigger Than Pre-Lehman
Stiglitz Says Banking Problems Are Now Bigger Than Pre-Lehman - Bloomberg.com
“In the U.S. and many other countries, the too-big-to-fail banks have become even bigger,” Stiglitz said in an interview today in Paris. “The problems are worse than they were in 2007 before the crisis.”

ALSO, it looks like FHA treats short sales the same as foreclosures.

Credit cards have lots of utility. The nearby Costco only accepts ccards for gasoline purchases. The benefit is lower operating costs that result in lower gas prices. Use my Costco Business Amex and 3¢ more per gallon is rebated. I also appreciate the simplified record keeping.

An acquaintance in O.C. short-sold both his homes in 2008 (Laguna Niguel and Lake Elsinore). His FICO lost only 60 points, and he was told by one of the servicers that this was standard.

MBS holders have a huge incentive to plant stories to discourage workouts. I suspect this well-meaning LA Times reporter has been hoodwinked by one or more PR firms.

"I find myself paying with a credit card at most hotels and car rental companies. How do you avoid that?"

Hotels--As I said, in the last three years the only time I had a problem was at a junky little motel in Wyoming. The gas drilling boom was in full swing and there was literally nowhere to stay. I was told they wanted a card because so many rooms had been trashed by oil people having drunken parties. I've never had a problem at a major chain or "upmarket" hotel. The higher up the prestige ladder, the more they like cash. That's my experience.

Car rentals--I don't rent cars. If I need a car, I usually get the use of a courtesy car from the local fixed base operator, or they'll give me a ride. If they don't have one, I use a taxi.

Truck rentals--I do rent trucks on the road and always use Budget. They have excellent trucks, they like cash, and they have excellent discounts. Their computer knows us.

@ patient renter - regarding CC interest rates.

I'm sure the data are available; I seem to recall reading that the average rate was ~15% but that was before the recent changes where the CC companies indexed their rates to beat the law changes that take effect early next year.

I assist a man managing his (meager) finances and the rate on his one active CC went from 16% to 25% when he quit paying on some other cards. He has a substantial balance ($7,000) so clearly the bank is concerned and want to recover as much as they can as soon as they can.

I'm thinking of recommending that he bail on this card. He can survive without it, but has a problem paying $160 in interest every month on his income. As I've written before, the bank is playing chicken with the borrower and I'm sure they've got models that have told them this is their optimum tactic.

"A massively irritating wine-snob friend has hit the skids financially, and he prided himself on never letting grape juice worth less than $50 a bottle pass his lips heretofore, and in lieu of drinking cheap plonk, he's given up on wine altogether..."

JD,
Due to the globalization of wine--Argentinean Malbec, etc-- there is an incredible amount of excellent wine priced at $15-20, $12-15 if you know what you're looking for in discount shops and grocery stores with sales. Drank an $18 Chianti (2005, which was the best vintage in a while) last night that was very good. French wine or California Chardonney (generally overpriced and not that good save at the $40/$50 range) are exceptions, perhaps. The Champagne region is tossing 20-25% of grapes in an attempt to prop up prices (and probably quality, admittedly).

It is The Good Soldier Svejk with a small mark over the S.

Thank you for a reasoned, thoughtful reply.

......more on topic...........I wouldn't know my FICO score from my IQ. Haven't checked either in decades.......nor used either either!

Dummies who remain under water for years! Get on with it because the assumption is that on a go forward basis, credit scores will mean something. I think not.

"Anyway, professional armies frighten me"

Politicians?

In my fall nostalgia, I keep hearing an echo of the FNM/FRE bailout and someone saying they were going to be made smaller. Broken up even. Whatever happened to that?

C

"time to reinstate the draft"

I simply could not imagine a new cadre of late teens going for a year or two in some organized civil service. There is a prevailing attitude amounst that/this generation has a right of entitlement and the word service means nothing more than a fast McChicken at the takeout window. (IMHO)

"Federal Reserve Oversight and the Failure of Riverside Bank of the Gulf Coast"

I just read this recent post of CR. He is spot-on. The failure was not just a failure of oversight of an individual bank. What was going on at these two banks, and weakening them, was going on on a vast scale in many parts of the country. The Federal Reserve failed miserably in its role as a regulator of systemic risk, and these two banks are merely small examples of that. There were many actions open to the Fed to tamp down this risk, but they did virtually nothing. In fact, they stoked the flames with easy and cheap credit policies. There were no stormy and persistent and closely contested arguments within the Fed on this issue. They didn't just fail, they missed the mark by a mile. Therefore, this weakness at the Federal Reserve can only be corrected with a thorough root-and-branch reform.

Why anyone you want an unreformed Fed to increase its influence as as systemic risk regulator is beyond me. It is so counterintuitive that I am leaning toward a belief that the motives of those advocating the increase in power are not looking to prevent a recurrence of the bad behavior that led to the recent crisis. Maybe they are even looking to perpetuate the bad behavior, by shoring up the backstops supporting it?

"The one thing I like about a draft (have them fight fire, not people)..."

You could them a choice: national service or the military.

Personally, I think it's important to have a citizen army, to keep the professionals at bay.

Also, if young people were more involved, they'd be better citizens. They'd have skin in the game.

CR said
"One of the tragedies of the housing / credit bubble was that many people bought homes before they were financially ready - or bought homes they could not afford. Now many of these people will be soured on the home buying experience, and their credit scarred for years."
This seems like a great minimization, equaled only the story below:

Many years ago friends were in a seedy movie theater and heard a loud voice:
Sorry, Sorry? You piss on my wife and you say you are sorry??

People wanted something they couldn't afford. So they look it any. No different then shoplifting or stealing a car. But instead of going to jail, these borrows actually have to have impared credit for a few years.
Didn't many of hey commit fraud by lying on the application?
Have you heard of anyone being jailed for mortgage fraud?

Grand theft auto can get you seven years in jail. But grand theft mortgage fraud? Oh gee they got seven yeard bad credit. And they do say they are sorry.

Sorry
People wanted something they couldn't afford. So they look it any
should read
....So they took it anyway

"...FNM/FRE bailout and someone saying they were going to be made smaller. Broken up even. Whatever happened to that?"

Counterpointer, you are too funny. FNM and FRE allow banks and others to make loans without being responsible for the future losses. And they allow voters without a pot to piss in buy $729,000 homes. Or, more accurately, they allow these voters to buy $300,000 homes for $729,000, and voters owning $300,000 homes to sell them for $729,000. And the only people who have to pay are FUTURE taxpayers. That is a winning combination. Winning combinations like that never die, and when they do appear to die, they merely rise again in a different form..

the trojans looked more frustrated and confused than I think I've seen them in the entirety of the PC era. look for two or more intra-conference chokes this year.

The road from where we are now to a self sustainng economy is very long and frought with all kinds of disasters. The world is a smaller place now.

My dad was a DI. He was a lifer and retired from the military.

"Who among us here is willing to give the government two years of free service; military or civil?"

I wouldn't "want" to, because I feel as if I paid my dues but, if there was a genuine emergency, I would do so.

Anyway, I'm not talking literally "free service." They'd be paid. It just wouldn't be a lot of money.

Hell, take nursing homes for instance. There are a lot of people there who could use some companionship, or simply have the newspaper read to them. Disabled and 4F youngsters could do things like that.

The old folks would get something out of it, and the youngsters would learn something about life.

mortgage fraud

Real Estate/Mortgage Fraud: Facts, Figures and Closed Cases

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Mortgage Fraud

"My dad was a DI. He was a lifer and retired from the military."

josap, he's probably a fine man but drove you nuts as a teen, huh?

Oh, c'mon, HH, 2 buck chuck was OK in the beginning, but you'd have to be roaring drunk to tolerate what they sell now. I couldn't finish the last bottle of it I bought, and I am really cheap.

BSR, you have that soooo right.

Great childhood, awful teen years and good friends as adults.

That fire that took out 250 square miles on the outskirts of LA in Angeles Crest, probably had 100 years of duff buildup, which is pretty common for all of our forests in the west...

You could keep 25,000 young adults busy clearing it out, for years~

Sometimes hard to tell who wants to avoid the end of the Drug War more- the "illegal" side or the "legal" side.

you could, but why. even redwoods need a good burn every few generations. Angeles NF is going to be gorgeous a week after the first real rains, I plan on driving the 2 to see it.

Because we are talking about sending "others" to do some "sacrifice" for our common good...

Open Question:
Would you support a mandatory two year "service" period for those 65 and older?

The Mortgage Fraud Reporter

Mortgage and Real Estate Fraud - Home Page

As a homebrewer with 10 years experience, I can say that the hefeweizen style can be difficult.
Fermentation temperatures are key.

No way will the military, IMHO, let draftees back into the service unless in some almost inconceivable national emergency it's unavoidable - but it's hard to imagine what that might be.

Beg to report, sir, but my grandfather always said you should never argue with an Austrian. . .

Chicago School, take note!

it is my least favorite style of beer, almost as bad as belgian swill, IMO, so he was as at a disadvantage to my pallet from the start

......"He knows he needs to get out of the house. He's told me that retirement is "killing" him."

Hell, mp, find out if he wants to be a "cowboy-gardener" and sleep in a bunkhouse - the pay ain't that great, but the peach pie and ice cream after dinner is to die for.......

Did I hear someone say swill?

I like Chimay and it come from Belgian

Chimay Brewery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've made some really nice Belgian Triples; at least I think so.

But the Belgian Beer catagory encompasses quite a bit of varied styles.
Beer in Belgium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks Barfly

picked this off a blog no source:

Borrowers who defrauded lenders by lying on their mortgage application could be thrown in prison for up to 30 years and forced to pay a $1 million fine under the current federal law. But the FBI says there is no intention to pursue borrowers at this time.

In 2006, the FBI studied three million mortgage loans and found that 30 to 70 percent of early payment defaults can be linked to misrepresentations in mortgage loan applications.

The figures aren't really surprising when you consider the fact that most of the defaults occurring right now involve borrowers who have not yet seen a payment reset. It is blatantly obvious there were an overwhelming number of borrowers approved for mortgages they could not afford.

The only way for this to happen was for someone to lie on a mortgage application. Some media stories have implied that it was lenders who did the lying and that most borrowers are victims of predatory lending schemes.

The truth is that borrowers did their fair share of lying too. More than 40 percent of subprime borrowers received loans without having to document their ability to pay. The borrowers simply 'stated' their income on the mortgage applications.

Almost 60 percent of stated-loan applicants inflated their incomes by at least 50 percent, according to the Mortgage Asset Research Institute. The worst part is that everyone knew the income was being inflated. The industry even had a name for these kinds of loans--'liar's loans.'

FBI Barking Up the Wrong Tree

Although lying on a mortgage application is a federal crime, borrowers who committed mortgage fraud are low on the FBI's list of priorities. Joseph Schadler, an FBI spokesman, said investigators will be focusing on organized property flipping rings and bogus foreclosure rescue schemes instead of lying buyers.

'We're going to pick the ones that are the most egregious and have the greatest impact on the economy,' Schadler said. 'Fraud for property is less impactful on the economy than the speculative fraud where people are trying to flip homes for profit.'

"find out if he wants to be a "cowboy-gardener" and sleep in a bunkhouse"

LOL

I'll tell him that.

Well, he knows he needs to do something. He's not getting enough exercise and he says he's drinking more than he used to.

Dangerous.

But that was a kind of irish bull, wasn't it?

True Pavel, we would have blown ourselves to bits in the 8 weeks it takes to teach a guy to shoot a rifle.

From the archives... Slate.com July 14 last year on Fannie/Freddie, see last para on hypothetical 5% default rate on FNM/FRE mtgs, a figure the esteemed author cites as "unlikely":

The Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac bailout would be an incredible bargain. - By Daniel Gross - Slate Magazine

I'm just refreshing myself with the timeline... impending trouble, denials, experts saying all's well, rumors of assistance, failure, emergency action, lull, further action at hundreds of billions more. Wow, there's a great book in there somewhere about the public masquerade during cascading meltdowns.

And the bubblevisionaries get terse at skeptics and doomers...

C

Looks like the trade war is warming up...

Sept. 14 (Bloomberg) -- China announced a probe into the alleged dumping of American auto and chicken products, two days after U.S. President Barack Obama imposed tariffs on imports of tires from the Asian nation.

Chinese industries have complained that they’re being hurt by “unfair trade practices,” the nation’s Ministry of Commerce said on its Web site yesterday. The Beijing-based ministry is also looking into subsidies for the products, it said. It didn’t specify the imports’ value.

China Probes ‘Unfair Trade’ in U.S. Chicken and Auto Products - Bloomberg.com

"...the FBI says there is no intention to pursue borrowers at this time..."

Exactly. If a million buyers committed fraud, maybe a thousand will be prosecuted and convicted, if that. It'll be just a token effort, to appease people like me who get bent out of shape when taxpayers have to provide rewards to people who lie, except the people appeased will be a little more gullible. And yes, I'd love to see the people with power in and over the financial world, who promoted the resulting bad loans, also go to jail. But along with a large group of folks from the last Administration like Greenspan and Rove, and financiers like Lehman leaders and rating agency leaders, that would mean Bernanke would be behind bars, along with Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. Hell... freeze...

There aren't enough jails.

A school teacher told me she filled out fake IRS forms to give to the lender. Then looked at the look on my face and told me she didn't know that was illiegal RIGHT!!!!!

Okay, it's not enough that you guys are going to leave your young people in a mountain of debt, but now you want to enslave them for two years too? I mean, okay, start the draft up if there's an actual war, but let's not get paranoid: there's no enemy on the horizon and probably won't be for many years.

You want a volunteer WPA sort of program? I can get behind that. But an absolutely needless draft? Nuts.

Yes mp. along wiht their Nam age parents.

These wars seem to be the wars we are prevented from seeing. Or don't want to see.

"These wars seem to be the wars we are prevented from seeing. Or don't want to see."

I would say don't want to see.

"A school teacher told me she filled out fake IRS forms to give to the lender. Then looked at the look on my face and told me she didn't know that was illiegal RIGHT!!!!!"

You and I know that she knew. I agree there aren't enough jails, but if instead of sending out a message that "borrowers won't be pursued", law enforcement were saying that such fraud would be pursued wherever possible, and they made a very prominent example of a few people, people like that schoolteacher would think twice next time. As it is, future generations of middle class, normally law-abiding citizens are being taught that loan fraud is a personal and private moral decision, not a risky venture that society may well expose and punish severely. There will be consequences for this new direction we are taking.

Of course she knew.

And the nice teacher has teen kids, who also know what their parents did. Great example, and the kids will grow up to understand that lieing is ok, at least when it comes to getting money.

mp - wasn't that the point of Goldwater-Nichols, and the Weinberger / Powell doctrines? Force restructuring, and strategic posture, backed up by persistent messages from top brass that the political echelon would never again be able to enter into a major conflict without the kind of overwhelming force that would necessitate burning the political capital of reinstituting the draft? I'm not an expert by any means but have a friend in a think-tank which was doing a GN "modernization" draft bill - seemed to hinge around those issues plus integrating RMA and the post-Cold War experience.

I'll just walk backwards slowly towards the door now if that's ok with everyone...

C

and some men come out in body bags.
Or with life long brain injuries from an I.E.D.
Or able to return to the 'hood and teach the gangsters some urban combat tactics.

the gangster kids think they live in slums with no way out.
Send them to work with people in 3rd world slums.
That may change their point of view.

Counterpointer, I don't know.

I do know that Goldwater was highly misunderstood when he ran for president. Johnson's people took his views and made him look like some kind of monster, which he wasn't.

In retrospect, I think Goldwater is beginning to receive a more sympathetic hearing. Too late now.

One thing is certain: Goldwater understood the use of military power far better than Johnson, who had little or no understanding of it.

.....instead, lets let the youngins' stay idiots.....

......quite seriously, you've never obviously seen the difference then, when a boy enters the service and comes out a man. Some of them don't EVER grow up without it.......

There are idiots in the service, and there are idiots outside the service. There are idiots everywhere.

Who are you to force someone to join the military when there's no threat to the homeland?

Agronox (profile) wrote on Sun, 9/13/2009 - 2:34 pm

I'm not saying send them to war.Military training isn't going to hurt them. That is what many countries do. No one will invade the Swiss. Why? Because they all own rifles and have very good military training.

Counterpointer, I'll have to read up on Goldwater-Nichols. I remember it only vaguely. You obviously know something about it, so why not lay it on us?

" I mean, okay, start the draft up if there's an actual war, but let's not get paranoid: there's no enemy on the horizon and probably won't be for many years."

Just curious, but you do know that we are presently fightling two wars...in Iraq and Afghanistan? Institute a draft, with no exemptions, so that the bankers and the politicians kids face combat, and we might be declaring victory and exiting Iraqistan sooner rather than years from now.

Agronox,
Can you justify NOT wanting to support the Purple Corporate Fascist Party with low wage mandatory "service"?

fried,
What is your measurement(s) for "victory" in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Victory in Iraqistan is defined as having to replace hideously expensive military hardware as often as possible...

Actually winning or losing and leaving town?

Naaaaah!

"as cynical as it might be to say it, we need places like Afganistan to keep our troops in fighting trim, if we're going to have an Army at all. It's the real deal. How else would a soldier gain any experience that was worth a damn?"

Christ, when did you graduate from West Point?

Military minds:

If we departed the scene in Afghanistan and Iraq, how much downsizing of the armed forces would happen?

None as we can't afford to have these people in the job market or worse yet seeking their old jobs back.

How else would a soldier gain any experience that was worth a damn?

........by fighting in a declared war that can be believed in.......The last one started for us about 68-years ago. The "incursions" since haven't been thought out - no clear objective, no end game. Just illegal games started by cowards working in Washington.

I'm not a fan of mandatory service or government interfering in peoples' lives, but I think any college student who takes out student loan should have to work ~4000 hours before getting the loan. I'm back in school, doing pay-go myself, and the debt load these kids are saddling themselves with is scary.

mp - not sure I understand your question. All I'm saying, is it's a perfect proving ground to keep an army in shape. Skills degenerate if they are not constantly exercised. Believe me, I'm not happy about being there, but somehow leaving the Taliban to their own devices just doesn't seem like much of an option.

I most definitely do NOT agree on some type of "service"

You're no Jack Kennedy.

Could always outlaw financial assistance for college so that they aren't able to jack their tuition to keep pace with credit growth/ availablity...

But what do I know?
I worked ~30 hours a week while carrying 18 hours in college.
Got out and owed $1500.
Others I went to school with had no job, took 9 hours and maximum loans.
One of them got out with damn near 40K in loans.

"Are there some programs that pay for college already?"

Money? Money can pay for college. Earn it, save it, borrow it. Is there a concern that people can't borrow enough? I am not being snarky, I just can't discern the problem we're trying to solve.

The Spanish Civil War was a most excellent training ground for armed forces trying out new military hardware as well...

@counterpointer

I'm going to do some reading.

All, have a good day.

Guess "we" should have never taught them how to fight the Russians years ago...

Finance moves from Wall Street to DC.

"Washington is the new Wall Street," Ross said. "No major capital transactions appear to occur without the intervention of Washington. To the degree that becomes a permanent part of the landscape is the question."

In Shift, Wall Street Goes to Washington - washingtonpost.com

Detroit is the poster child for what large municipalities might end up looking like in the future. Italy is my nomination for the path of governance the US is following.

Italy is interesting on many levels. Birthplace of the Roman Empire, home of the RCC, accepted criminalization of a large portion of bureaucracy and society. A leader who owns the majority of mass media and has pushed through laws limiting criticisms from those he does not.(Berlusconi is the owner of three analogue television channels, various digital television channels, as well as some of the larger-circulation national news magazines.) In 2009 he formed the People of Freedom Party(has a nice ring to it) by combining two of the national parties. The list of supporting data pointing to a corporate/criminal state goes on and on. Probably the most significant point about Italy is the corruption is well known and accepted. People continue to go about their daily business and shrug. Is that our future?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

The need to finance wars created the bond markets. Modern finance was born. Yay us.

In theory national service is a benefit to society but the ability to abuse this mandatory service is huge and tempting. I do agree that the military services have created a relatively race free meritocracy but the key here is the all volunteer force. Funny how perspective shifts when you have to do something as opposed to wanting to do something. I value my years of military service and especially the GI Bill/college fund it provided. Downside these days is you are literally putting a value on your life. College and a future versus the chance at death or dismemberment. Unless there were forces marching across our borders I would have a hard time advocating military service under the current situations. Of course if that is your only perceived way to a better life then you roll the dice.

My .02 for the day. Ciao

Guess "we" should have never taught them how to fight the Russians years ago...

• no disagreement there. Whose brainchild was that?

///The need to finance wars created the bond markets. Modern finance was born. Yay us.
////

That's what happens when you stop pillaging.

The key to downsizing our military is somehow finding jobs to replace the last upper-middle-class corporate jobs in quantity in our country, toiling for the arms merchants.

Good luck with that...

"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

Not a huge Kennedy fan myself, but that was a damned good speech.

I'm decidedly of a libertarian bent, but I see nothing but good in a mandatory 2 years in service to the country, be it military or civil. Freedom isn't free, and there'd be far less (pardon the phrase) sheeple out there if they spent a short amount of time involved in something other than themselves.

Freedom isn't free

Are you sold out of the "these colors don't run" t-shirt?
Do you have any patriotic T-shirts that are actually made in America?

".........and there'd be far less .....sheeple out there if they spent a short amount of time involved in something other than themselves."

.....I agree.

....time to pick 'maters..........have a great Sunday, people.......

Agreed, tj.

OT (I think)

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) -- A study by South Carolina's Criminal Justice Academy shows that almost 20 percent of the prospective law enforcement officers in the past year could not read at a 10th-grade level.

The Post and Courier of Charleston also reported Sunday that nearly 4 percent of the 843 candidates were reading below a sixth-grade level.

Academy Director Hubert Harrell said instructors have encountered students who cannot read or comprehend the material presented to them.

Academy officials are encouraging police agencies to screen recruits for reading comprehension. Some larger agencies already do this, but smaller agencies with fewer resources often do not. The study found nearly 34 percent of the failing candidates came from departments with 50 or fewer officers.

Look up Operation Gladio, even more interesing.

MP,

IIRC, my DI said there is a right way a wrong way and the Marine Corp way. One thing about boot camp, they operate on the assumption that you know nothing. By the way the marines were taking draftees right out the induction center in Oakland, CA.

obviously, your familiarity with european geography could use some help.

COLUMBIA, S.C. -- U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham says Medicare recipients should cover more of their costs and Medicaid should be replaced with private care plans.

• in other news, U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham triples up on HMO stocks.

The Swiss somehow ended up with a shitlode of gold after the war, and one of their ingenious methods of history laundering it, was to mint a tremendous quantity of 1935 20 Franc coins...

barfly, yes, the figure is out of date and is, presumably, greater now.

But it refers to our uniformed combatants killing civilians, exclusive of sectarian violence. Modern warfare - after Coventry - seems to accept this with little remorse. I'm afraid I do not.

lubecpat (profile) wrote on Sun, 9/13/2009 - 3:45 pm

We bought a retirement condo 1 year ago. It is a disaster. We had perfect credit ratings for all of our 41 years of marriage. Yet now, at our age we are finding ourselves underwater and we can see no recourse.

What's wrong with living/retiring in the condo and paying the mortgage? None of factors that made this condo a place to live have changed have they? Underwater is only a factor if you are selling.

Vietnam widow - saw all the mistakes the US made - saw all the heroic efforts our troops made - want to make sure that the YOUNG troops are still remenbered, honored, because they were indoctrinated to believe that what they were doing in VN was a 'god-given- directive. People/Sheeple - please try to research what you are talking about.

burnside, I am in total sympathy with your sentiment. Iraq should never have happened. I see Afganistan differently, however, but I still regret civilian deaths. What do you do when the enemy uses civilians as human shields to kill our soldiers?

on the contrary, it is a point of pride for that crew. the big smile and firm handshake given by rummy to saddam in the very week that he obviously was using chemical weapons on the battlefield shows that some traditions live on for our ruling class.

barfly, I do wish that were to sum of the problem. But it isn't.

You've heard of the Gnomes (3rd time is the charm?, HG) of Zurich?

That's what I was talking about...

Although I might be back later...

Stiglitz: Banking Problems Worse than in 2007

Heroin is entwined in the Afghan economy. That some of the proceeds are funding all controlling interests seems to have escaped the notice of US policymakers. That, and that it is - and has been for a very long time - a fundamental prop for the agrarian economy.

Where we require farms to destroy poppy fields, poverty quickly follows. Given that warlords are the only employers currently hiring, what outcome do we expect?

American ideologues have no interest in understanding these cultures; it is the source of many blunders and, in consequence, the needless waste of many lives.

edit: What to do in the face of that? I think first and foremost, we do not become them.