Got pigged a second time....last thread had less than a hand full of comments...
lost-confused (profile) wrote on Thu, 9/10/2009 - 5:47 am
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Lets look at the US's Health situation with a cold penetrating eye...
Two choices, let the poor and middle class slowly or quickly get sick and die in the public square or force everyone to be covered under a basic health coverage...
Pro-
Keeps the sick off of TV and out of the newspapers...No more tear jerking around.
Maybe, just maybe, it will it will contain/lower costs per individual by adding more individuals to the pool.
It would contribute to the public health of the nation.
Lower competitive prices of goods and services, at least within the US (doesn't do much good against third world exporters.
The Govt. mandates emergency services for free to those that can't pay in exchange for subsidies.
The Govt already provides medical insurance to Retires, Medicare, uninsured children.
At least 30% of every premium dollar spent of health insurance goes to expenses and profit.
Con-
Forces everyone to acquire coverage thru the private market.
The US has a free enterprise economic system for distributing goods and services (LOL, myth, not true since Roosevelt and the advent of the workers compensation/safety movement of the 1900's in the New England factories and mills.
Shrinks personal liberty, LOL, when was the last time an uninsured person refused medical assistance for a serious or life threatening injury or illness?
Explode the deficit...Its exploding anyway, and I am not sure how much of the additional cost is attributed to the uninsured, under-insured or illegals.
What is being proposed will not remove all the inefficiencies from the system. For the maximum effect, a single payer plan would be best. In order to reduce the enforcement, the Govt should just assume the costs of the program and build it into the tax system. That way, we will have no need for health insurance police...
One final problem are the illegals/undocumented. What becomes of them? 100 years ago, this country need unskilled labor, so uneducated unskilled immigrants were not a problem. (ie, assembly lines). There is less of a need at this time. I have always felt that the US had two choices to the health care crisis-either provide universal coverage and lock down our boarders to the illegals or have a system of voluntary purchase of insurance and the hell with the poor...
One final point on the myth of the capitalistic economic system. This hasn't existed in the US for over 100 years, if ever...We have a mixed economy....And as far as capitalists loving a capitalistic system, this is also a myth...Capitalists are in general risk adverse...
I can't wait to see what new inventions come out of this early bull market. We've had the Internet, Corian countertops and highly efficient refrigerators. What's next? Any ideas?
Our economic model really does work--bring on the s
The Chinese stock market and the Baltic Dry Index have an extraordinarily high correlation to one another. In recent weeks, however, we’ve seen a sharp divergence. The correlation is primarily due to China’s large export component. Is the Baltic Dry Index forecasting a slow-down in global shipping and thus a slow-down in the Chinese economy? More importantly, is the stock market (in the U.S. and in China) ignoring this potential warning sign? That has yet to be seen, but the convergence of these two indices is likely in the coming months and that either means a surge in BDI or a collapse in HK.
Looking at the seasonal adjustment for the new claims number, we see last week:
. NSA new claims: 456,682 SA new claims: 576,000
.
.
Now this week we see:
. NSA new claims: 460,516 SA new claims: 550,000
.
Interesting, SA may start distorting the picture due to previous seasons' Christmas hiring ramp up that will be weakly present (if at all) this year... ETA Press Release: Unemployment Insurance Weekly Claims
Report
One other bit of data on this week's new claims number from Bloomberg:
. A Labor Department spokesman said the federal holiday in the U.S. on Sept. 7 resulted in the government estimating results for seven states: California, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, Minnesota, Virginia and Wyoming. The spokesman also said such estimates generally don’t result in large revisions in subsequent reports. U.S. Initial Jobless Claims Fell to 550,000 Last Week (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
You get the idea that technology has maxed out, as in there is no money or effort deemed worthy presently, to make computers have more memory or be a bit quicker, is there?
So, when our economy strengthens, it becomes a loser.
That's just great.
There's a line of thought that trade deficits don't matter to the health of an economy. It fact, it might be a sign that the US is a super-efficient economy that logically sources from the lowest cost producers.
@Lost-Confused: Two choices, let the poor and middle class slowly or quickly get sick and die in the public square or force everyone to be covered under a basic health coverage...
If those are the only two choices you can think of, then you're a Fascist. Sorry. Only a fascist or communist government would "force everyone to be covered".
I have some healthy relatives who will go to the mattresses if they're forced to take a shitty health plan just because some bought-and-paid-for Senator thinks that's a good idea.
There's no need to force anyone to do anything. What we should do is create a reasonable system in which everyone has good options available. The current system is far from reasonable but that's no reason to "force" anyone to do anything.
So, when our economy strengthens, it becomes a loser.
That's just great.
There's a line of thought that trade deficits don't matter to the health of an economy. It fact, it might be a sign that the US is a super-efficient economy that logically sources from the lowest cost producers
But in the long-term, it still leads to economic failure if we can't employ our folks to provide them the income to purchase the lowest cost stuff.
We ultimately become the competitors with the lowest cost producers as wages recalibrate to those levels.
@WS There's no need to force anyone to do anything. What we should do is create a reasonable system in which everyone has good options available. The current system is far from reasonable but that's no reason to "force" anyone to do anything.
You're right: we should allow the current broken system to completely collapse before we touch anything...because we're doing so much better spending such a much higher percentage of GDP on this than anyone else. The invisible guiding hand is doing a fantastic job of leading us to "reasonable", isn't it?
High unemployment, expected to rise and imports are up. To me that says business is and will leave the US. Obama keeps punishing business equals no jobs. Job less recovery more government control.
The actual, in-your-face federal deficit was $2.130 trillion in the last 12 months!...this $2.130 trillion increase in the national debt is just the deficit in Congressional spending, which doesn't even include the $2.6 trillion in the budget that was "paid for" by offsetting revenues!...Congress have spent $2.6 trillion, plus $2.1 trillion equals $4.7 trillion, which they spent in a $14 trillion economy! The government is spending the equivalent of 34% of GDP! Gaaahh!
For medical reasons, I now require a specific medical device for the duration of my life.
The rep with whom I dealt this summer left her old medical equip employer since they were bought out by a larger firm. The larger firm required, according to health insurance company requirements, that individuals have to pay their coinsurance for the product. Prior to buyout, the equipment provider waived coinsurance payments if there was financial hardship and absorbed the cost just to get folks the equipment that they needed.
The owners of the original equipment company are starting their own again and will pursue the original philosophy. Apparently, they're pissed off and can philosophically accept a lower profit margin in the interests of getting the devices to all levels of society. While I can afford and will pay the coinsurance, I'm now with these folks.
If that's the acting philosophy of the health carriers, bring on the O plan.
I’m still inclined to see less value in our media-culture habit of citing algortithmized data (seasonal adjustments, imputed values for birth/death) and placing higher value on that than on actual numbers.
I understand there's cyclic and rhythmic noise in unemployment data...the solution there is not to "make up" numbers, the solution is to use "moving averages" of 2,3,or 4.
How would u check the accuracy of SA claims number?
How could the BLS ever prove or disprove that a SA 550,000 for claims for the week-ending was accurate?
You cant measure its accuracy by comparing it to the NSA actual number because by definition –and by purpose – it is not the actual number.
BLS admits upfront is not the actual number.
A SA number is not held to any standard of 'forecasting' of where new claims will be next week or any week after.
A SA # is not held to a standard of accurately forecasting what claims will be, say, at year end, which is something other adjusted numbers are striving to do.
A SA claims # is not even used to make YoY comparisons...and besides, since seasonality is alleged to drive the need for a SA #, a 4-week moving average of NSA would always do a better job than a SA # for YoY comparisons.
in fact, outside of blog commentors and economists, many people hear "corrected" when you say, "seasonally-adjusted"....which is oh so wrong. We know that here but very few folks in the MSM and on Main Street realize that what they're assuming on 'corrected number' is simply not so.
We need to stop focusing on SA made-ups and use more valid ways to smooth NSA noise.
You get the idea that technology has maxed out, as in there is no money or effort deemed worthy presently, to make computers have more memory or be a bit quicker, is there?
We had a good run with 3D video cards. CPUs are now getting wider (multi-core) instead of faster clock speeds.
The bottleneck is bringing our operating systems and more importantly application software up to date so they can make better use of the parallel processing power in multi-core CPUs. That is not an easy thing to do, and some tasks are more suited parallel processing than others.
Stuff is still getting smaller and faster. We have not hit the physical limits yet.
Avl Dao - Denninger made the same point the other day, page 10 of the BLS report shows the raw numbers, and it's quite clear that the July-Aug decline was over 900k workers.
Adjust THAT if you're on the receiving end, algorimizers, since you damned well should be.
Sorry. Only a fascist or communist government would "force everyone to be covered".
@Wisdom, where do you see a line drawn then on mandatory automobile insurance (at the state level) for all drivers and owners?
And...the argument for compulsory primary school education has beeen that it creates greater social good.
Do you see that as communism and fascism?
My guess could be reordering from depleted stock after the slowdown in retail sales and the other is Christmas products. Then there is manufacturing still moving out of the US.
Counterpoiter, you point (pun intended) to another issue:
There are situations when it is the Actual NSA number that should indeed drive a corporate or policy decision.
If you operate a charity...yiu need to know what the actual number is at the macro level and the local level.
If Im in City Govt or County Govt and I have a massive local seasonal workforce, I need to know actual numbers cuz it impacts everything from schools to roads to social services to charities to police.
Here in NC, we're still trying to get clarity on how the state concocts its numbers.
Lemme take a shot at this: it's kind of like "states rights" and "Federalism" - the line is drawn where it's most convenient or friendly to one's immediate policy preferences or short-term gain. See the EPA, Clean Air and the Bush Administration or Gonzales v. Raich (specifically in the backlight of Morrison, Lopez and Wickard).
Edit: On my personal preferences, I find the Automobile insurance requirement to be a de-facto tax, payable to private entities, over which we have no control. It's deeply offensive, but absolutely necessary, and at least there is the fig leaf that one might possibly somehow survive without a car. Going without chemo, for example, is less optional than going without a car. I guess we could get the "Government out of Medicare" and ask grandma how that works out - no death panel to worry about, thank goodness! At least with car insurance, it is fairly heavily regulated and risk/cost is connected to something (driving skill/behavior) over which individuals can reasonably exercise control - genes not so much.
@Comrade Scott: Your criticism is misplaced. The current system is totally unreasonable and very few people have any decent options. There is no invisible benevolent guiding hand here, at all. There are many cooks who have over the decades brewed up a vile stew instead... I'm in complete agreement with your premise that reform is needed. But the reform should not compel people to do anything. If the new options are indeed better, people will switch of their own free will, and be much happier about it.
hmm... yahoo says disappointing outlook on Monsanto is taking the wind out of the sails of the markets...could be an interesting day if we get more of these green shoots.
How do the Canadians feel as they are pulled into our [healthcare] debate?
I think if you had asked a Canadian what they thought of their Universal system two years ago, you'd have gotten a tepid response, focussing on extended wait times and resource constraints. We had a bit of a self-esteem issue when it came to health care.
However, watching your circus from the North has given most Canadians a renewed respect for how their Universal system functions. You'd be hard-pressed to find more than 1% of the population who would trade the Canadian system for the one in the USA.
@WS - I think your snark meter is mis-calibrated: that is precisely my point, there is no invisible guiding hand and there is no "market based" solution to the problem.
Edit: and perhaps my sensitivity meter is a bit overly sensitive on this issue...
What exactly are we importing, that imports are up?
It depends on how you state imports (as % of GDP or as a % of exports...or in absolute dollars, etc).
Anyway, even during a recession there's a lot of importing of materials for road-building, for weaponry assembled here by defense contractors, for assembly here of other durable goods, There's a lot of chemicals imported for what we here call food (machine-made consumable extruded organic products put in boxes and juice boxes, etc).
The recent NYT piece on Boeing's 787 Dreamliner showed high valuations in the imported sub-assemblies for Boeing aircraft.
I guess I was just wondering whether there has been an uptick in foregin purchases, such as Chinese goods. As I understand it, the consumer is tapped out. If it turns out that the consumer has returned to buying foreign goods, then I would see that as a sign to healthier pocketbooks, and cash purchases no less, as consumers are shedding credit (or so they say).
@Avl Dao: Non-drivers and non-owners are not required to get auto insurance. Furthermore, at least in my state, drivers are not required to insure themselves (collision), only to insure against damage to others (liability).
Also, with regard to public education: (a) There is a hell of a large element of brainwashing in the public schools here. How about yours? There is an element of totalitarian government (communism/fascism/whatever) in there... (b) There are still private school options.
I will concede your point that sometimes the country needs laws which limit individual behavior for the greater good. But health care does not seem to be one of those areas. And in each case, the restriction of individual freedom does carry a hefty social cost as well.
O, that is why a monolithic number on imports or exports should not drive our debates or policies.
These monolithic numbers we bandy about need to be carved into whats relevant and what portion (ag chemicals) are not important to questions on consumer purchases.
There could be a much better market-based solution to healthcare if the government structured the rules of the market correctly. Denninger has had some good thoughts here though I don't agree with everything. We could start by requiring providers to charge a single price for a given product to all consumers of that product.
Similarly, there could be decent financial markets if the rules were different...
We are getting the crappy systems we deserve, by not regulating the government's behavior with our votes.
Wisdom Speaker: There's no need to force anyone to do anything.
Under the current system, if you show up to an emergency room with some kind of traumatic mishap, they are required by law to blow a whole crapton of money to make sure you're "stabilized" whether or not you can pay for it or have insurance.
If you allow people to make the decision to not buy health insurance, then you give them the option of externalizing their traumatic health costs onto the hospitals who are forced by law to treat them and onto insured people who make up the difference.
There are two ways I can see to deal with this. One is repealing the law, and allowing people to bleed out in the streets if they don't buy health insurance and get harmed. This is unacceptable on a humanitarian level.
The other is some sort of mandatory minimum insurance, as proposed, enforced with a fine.
Fines seem unfair in this situation. After all, if you can't afford to buy health insurance in the first place, how can you afford to pay a fine?
I'll tell you who will be affected by the fine: People with money to pay the fine. You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Homeless people who don't have the means to pay for the insurance in the first place won't have the means to pay the fine. So who is actually paying the fine, ideally, are people with cash who decide not to buy health insurance because it's cheaper for them to stick the rest of us with the bill if they get hurt, or because they just think they're invincible.
So fines, while they sound awful, are an uncomfortable solution to what in the end is an intractable problem. The current "solution" we have, to make everyone pay for these people's care anyway, but doing it in the most inefficient, half-assed, irresponsible way possible, is no solution.
So I guess I am kind of half-warm to fines, if we can't have a public option for basic, primary care.
Outsider,
I agree with you that the consumer is tapped out, but on the other hand, every time I drive by the local wallymarts, the parking lots are filled to the brim. People are still buying crap, not as much as before I wager, but Made In China is not gone yet. I think a lot of it is seaonsal though right now with school back in session. Still believe Christmas is going to be small and necessity oriented for a lot of people. I remember my dad used to get socks and underwear every year from his parents at Christmas...may be time to reclaim some lost traditions.
Avl Dao - absolutely the raw numbers are necessary for local policy and operations - not just charities but local gov and business too. To highlight the absurdity, think of the proportion of the 900k laid off workers, and apply to local level, but you're not permitted to plan to deal with the change of employment status of a full half of them because they're invisible due to seasonal adjustment.
Sorry, no food stamps for every second one of you because you're not seasonally adjusted. Wellll, I don't make the rules round here buddy, and I guess it's just your stiff shit that you didn't get laid off in a different season.
No Frank, we're not going to can that 15% of re-stocking due to higher unemployment in the county because the seasonally adjusted figures don't support it. Go ahead with the orders on current market share and purchasing power.
The bigger question about imports is one of scale.
Quite often the only way it's profitable for a company in China to make some doo-dad to sell to us, is by making a shitlode of them. It has been the business model, and everybody knew it and it was standard operating procedure on the path to getting gloriously rich, but that dog wont hunt anymore, will it?
Hoop, Im not picking in you....Im just going to ask is the word not getting out that homeless or low-income people will have their insurance premiums subsidized or heavily discounted??
I've never read a comprehensive defense of our present health care arrangement--only negatives about any/all changes. The rich are satisfied--because the rich always were separate from the masses. Seems to me that every other industrial power gets better results while spending much less. My son has a chronic illness--Crohn's--if his job disappears, he becomes an invalid--meds cost $5k/month--Remicade plus others. Those here that are smug and without need--get real sick and poor. You"re not very christian (notice the lower case "c"). When your competition has a better product that costs less, you emulate, improvise, or go out of business--you don't ignore or go slowly.
Don't we as US taxpayers own 79.9% of AIG?
Why don't we force that insurance company to cover all americans?
Oh that's right.
They are BK.
BK plus 180 BILLION...
--You guys know THE RULE.
Ask for an icon; hit the tip jar.
New Health Care,"Just say NO".
This is about insurance reform. not health care.
All first world democracies have universal health care, have longer life spans, and lower infant mortality rates.
The data is in, and it is a moot point. They do it often for half the cost. We know what works best and most efficiently.
This is about industry elite's and their lap dogs in congress keeping the cash cow going, and supplying a minimal amount of protection so the sheeple don't catch on.
But agree, until they actually jettison this farce, just say no.
Hoopajoops (my soon cals them hoopaloops, incidentally),
You just highlighted why some are upset regarding the fact that illegals aren't going to be covered. So illegals "won't be covered", but they will still need to go to the ER to get care if they need it. How is that going to reform anything? So who is going to pay for them? This is actually the point that some like Rush have been making, that even if you can't pay; the health care industry will fix you (I'm not advocating that point).
It seems like if we're going to let government meddle in health care, we should go to single payer. I like some of Denninger's points as well, especially in regards to pricing and requiring insurers sell what they are selling to everyone if they have a product. We're still going to have insurance cos as meddling middlemen anyway.
I am sure that there is someone who is as bad off as your son that has no insurance or income to deal with it. They are taken care of under our current system so what changes? Nothing but government control and their track record stinks.
"To this war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues."
Avl, this healthcare debate could go on forever. But in response to: is the word not getting out that homeless or low-income people will have their insurance premiums subsidized or heavily discounted??
I think the issue is that of course, if you're that poor, you don't have to worry about the fine - and never have, because Medicaid has always been there.
It's when you move a bump up from that level, to the working poor/lower middle class who do not qualify for Medicaid presently, but also do not qualify for having the basic necessities -- this level is going to really have a hard time affording any premiums and/or fines. Basically, it's a fine for being working poor/lower middle class. And while I'm sure the premiums will be discounted, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, as they say. It will be one more stone to carry in that sack.
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone there to make a product to be sold here that use to also be made here.
The media spins this story as if China just upped and decided to make "this crap" and "design this crap".
That's hooeey.
As with most of our problems, this 'China Problem' was a Frankensteim of our own creation done willfully and knowingly by Americans.
America achieved this via the massive push in the 1980s & 1990s (of which I was a not so tangential part of) to FIND a mfger in China and provide them with specs and designs so that we can stop making the product here and have it made there.
Too early for Hobbes, JD. But yes life can be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short...I prefer:
Oh, it is real. It is the only real thing.
Pain. So let us name the truth, like men.
We are born to joy that joy may become pain.
We are born to hope that hope may become pain.
We are born to love that love may become pain.
We are born to pain that pain may become more.
Pain, and from that inexhaustible superflux
We may give others pain as our prime definition.
Robert Penn Warren
burnside - totally, my county has been cutting trivial and fluffy non-vocational education programs like art, music, and languages for at least 9 months now. The local real-side economists and budget team seem well ahead of the aggregators, and little of it is pleasant or comforting. And it's a wealthy area.
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone to there to make a product sold here that use to also be made here.
That is the basis of capitalism, getting the best spread between user and exchange value, which translates into surplus value (always through labor).
If you don't, someone will do better, and you will fail or get absorbed.
The poor capitalist are destine to exploiting the last two people standing, one taking advantage of the other--
Avl Dao - know what you mean. I spent most of the 90s doing it too. The model seemed quite plausible, the tech download and trade arrangement had seemingly done its Ricardian best in Japan, Taiwan, and Sth Korea over 40 years, and the second round imitators were doing well off it, leaving aside that awkward business with unduly rapid capital account liberalization.
Try getting an approval poll now from those who gained from the general welfare improvements thereby...
It's when you move a bump up from that level, to the working poor/lower middle class who do not qualify for Medicaid ..... this level is going to really have a hard time affording any premiums and/or fines.
O, im not sure thats correct.
It's not just medicaid.
If ur working class poor, there will be a income-check/test just like there is for LIHTC and Sec 8 subsidized housing that the working poor qualify for.
With inurance premiums, there will be a sliding scale subsidy.
It's not so simple as to say:
you're poor so go get medicaid....but you...yeah you,
ur just working poor so u pay full-freight or else get fined.
And nothing inbetween.
So again, I guess the word is simply not getting out...cuz that meme has taken a life of it's own.
The lure of not paying American wages and taking advantage of Asian rates of pay, without having to worry about pesky lawsuits by employees, or strikes by unions, or having to pay for health insurance for workers, was simply too good a deal to pass up.
"Marx is singing in his grave there in London as the US government now controls the auto, mortgage, insurance, banking, et al industries and he has not fired a shot,"
Is it a currency hedge play? Dollars now for cheaper dollars in the future? Why anyone in GB, Euroland, or North America would want to issue bonds in foreign currencies in this market is mind boggling to me...
Congress have spent $2.6 trillion, plus $2.1 trillion equals $4.7 trillion, which they spent in a $14 trillion economy! The government is spending the equivalent of 34% of GDP!
RATM,
The situation is much worse when you consider that ~ 15% of our GDP is imputed and arguably not really output at all.
Less the imputations, government spending is 40% of GDP. It's even hirer if compliance costs are added in!
CR and others here are totally off base saying we need too balance the budget. It's far too late for that. A balanced budget at any point in the cycle would result in an immediate collapse of the ponzi debt system. Why do you think Krugman is so adamant about taking on gov't debt?
Welcome to the kick the can down the road eCONomy. It will likely soon be illegal not just anti-patriotic to openly talk about our eCONomic system.
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone there to make a product to be sold here that use to also be made here.
You are under counting - it is closer to ten out of ten.
I may be dense but I still have trouble figuring out how we are going to (1) insure 30 million (or 47 million) more people, (2) let everyone keep their existing plan (and not have employers rush to the public option), (3) have an adequate number of health care professionals treating these additional patients especially for preventative care, (4) add benefits, (5) not ration access, and (6) save money. Something does not pass the old reasonableness test.
I wish they would all just be honest about it - to fix the problem, and make it work financially, they have to institute strict cost controls and access controls - the public (especially those on Medicare) will howl about it, but when 80% of the health care expenditure is paid by someone other than the consumer, and the conusmer has no idea what care costs, it is the logical outcome.
The more immediate problem they face is close to 20 million unemployed and underemployed voters who will be hopping mad next fall. I suspect they will need to raise that debt limit a ton to buy off those voters.
Hoopajoops
your comments on use of the emergency room seem a bit ungenerous...
some years ago I had a searingly painful kidney stone attack which literally
doubled me over... I could hardly move the pain was so writhing... now, I could
have called an ambulance but at that time I was barely able to pay my 1,200 rent...
so I crawled outside and dragged myself to Columbus and finally hailed a cab...
took me to Roosevelt. I was admitted and had to cough up at least 120 dollars on my CC
which I did, inside the ER all of a sudden I had 2 or 3 doctors... they put me on a drip and gave me a shot of demerol
... when they came back 10 minutes later I told them to give me another shot of something
stronger since I was still in great discomfort... begrudingly the young doc have me a shot of morphine
and it worked like a charm... then came a plethora of tests that included the the latest and greatest CAT scan
... used some kind of vibrating device to break up the stone and then after observation of 4 hours they did another
CAT scan and said I was ready to go... the final bill came to 2400 dollars of which I paid zero, I was on UE at the
time and remember one bill and no follow ups.
....
I have a sister in law who is 43 and carrying about 90 pounds too much. well, she had to have one ankle reconstructed
with metal rods and another worked on as well. I go back to Indiana and see this people who don't take care
of themselves at all, and then when their bodies starts falling apart they yell Doctor Doctor save me!
....
I have take good care myself since I have times when I lack coverage but I look around and see people
depending on modern medicine to save their fat lzay asses
The lure of not paying American wages... pesky lawsuits by employees, or strikes by unions, or having to pay for health insurance for workers, was simply too good a deal to pass up.
well it gets better. B4 the American mgf went to Asia, the American distributors went first cuz they wanted to find an Asian source for a lower wholesale price, and then import it and sell at a competitive price, and pocket the extra profit. Soon a few American Mfrs realized they were doomed if they didnt Go Along or at least cut out this middle man; but many Mfgrs realized where this game was headed and sounded the alarm...but it got no where under Reagan and Bush I .
NAFTA and many other deals (China's not in NAFTA) over-whelmed the American firms who knew this would all End In Tears...they capitulated. But by then, WalMart's pricing policies and market dominance had forced many firms to ship jobs overseas as well.
You can replay this DVD and realize it wouldve been hard to prevent The Ending in a profit-dominated culture like ours.
BTW, there really werent ever enough strikes or lawsuits to justify the above...thats a meme. I think there should always be profit-sharing tensions between labor & owners, and between owners & local govt who want a share of the profits via taxes, and between owners & society...etc.
I am sure that there is someone who is as bad off as your son that has no insurance or income to deal with it. They are taken care of under our current system so what changes? Nothing but government control and their track record stinks.
Nope--I know unnecessary invalids with this disease. While he was still in college--with my insurance, Remicade was new--and he needed it. It wasn't on the formulary and J&J wouldn't let me pay cash for it--they were squeezing the insurers. The alternative for him --the cheap alternative--is long term prednisone. I can't think of a better punishment for my enemies. Destroys bones, appearance and most of the damage is permanent. Sorry to say, your response sounds smug and stupid.
Basel - this is absurd. They've only had, what, two bund failures this year, so are going for a USD issue, syndicated, not direct to market, for novelty value? London market was scathing when BoE went with a syndication in ?July.
Hell, I'll keep watching, for novelty value.
Anyhow, from across the sea, Bank of China senior rep and Steve Roach crap all over recovery prospects from a great height:
Still, I've had a close enough look at Florida's curriculum to know bright, thoughtful young people who will wear the mortarboard and reach for the sheepskin without having encountered Michel de Montaigne or Nicolas Poussin or the Rachmaninoff Vespers.
Perhaps I used the wrong term and should've said O's philosophy in the plan. Yeah, I'm now very much a populist and the gist is that we shouldn't let people go without just because they have no money.
I have annual treatments for my problem and on more than one occasion, have walked into the waiting area to see others - obviously much poorer - there for treatment. But general conversations with staff reveal that further help, which they can't afford, would be of great benefit.
Untreated, my situation is painful and now occasionally debilitating. I put what I know they go through with the crap that I heard this AM and yeah, I buy into the philosophy. The final plan has yet to be determined and will be worked out in the meatgrinder.
HomeGnome, can't wait, I am ready for BFF and the weekend! And an announcement...there is hope for the future...my four year old likes the original Star Wars better than Episode I. He likes Chewie and Han. I was so proud!
Include the illegals no matter what the fertilizer salesman shouted last night. Proof is he (as past administrations) is not addressing deporting illegals. Laws ignored are useless and this one will be.
Too early for Robert Penn Warren, Vonbek777...I prefer:
I hurt myself today
To see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
The only thing that's real
The needle tears a hole
The old familiar sting
Try to kill it all away
But I remember everything
-- Nine Inch Nails
I have take good care myself since I have times when I lack coverage but I look around and see people
depending on modern medicine to save their fat lzay asses
What about people born with a genetic condition who do everything to stay healthy but can't?
Are they, too, depending on modern medicine to save their fat lazy asses?
That's the real problem I have with people who are currently healthy and who have some kind of bizarre feeling of superiority or superior "work ethic" over the sick because of it. They feel like they "worked" to "earn" their health, and feel that many people who aren't healthy are somehow morally to blame for their condition because they must not "work" as hard to stay healthy. It smacks of how we used to practice medicine in the dark ages, when afflictions were the curse of god and people who got sick were thought of as some kind of moral degenerates.
HomeGnome--graduation rates are not always what they seem. Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate. I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants" loosely.
still have trouble figuring out how we are going to (1) insure ...more people, (...(3) have an adequate number of health care professionals treating these additional patients especially for preventative care, (4) add benefits, (5) not ration access, and (6) save money.
I believe it's possible after I finally had surguries after 4 decades of never being operated on. The inefficiency and the mind-boggling fees paid were ridiculously. My insurer was hit with bills from a gazillion labs and vendors and specialists all claiming they did something for me by virtue of only producing some billing code. Minimal checks and balances.
I now have an $19,000 big toe thanks to minor work done on a toe that was basically usable. (and I had to wait 6 weeks cuz the surgeon was flooded, in his words, by elective surgeries scheduled in advance of the 'Summer Sandal Wearing" season for women).
My out-of-pocket was negligible so I guess I wasnt suppose to notice the ineeficiencies and fraud and intra-profession cronyism where docs send medical business partners some extra business (in my opinion) And that's just my example.
I find it very disappointing that the President continues to mislead the public about the supposed benefits of the healthcare program. And I think Mish did a very good job analyzing Obama's speech in his column last night.
Mr. Slippery,
Good one... I always thought Inexhaustible Superflux would be a great name for a band...but no one I knew thought it was. Warren has it right though, once you cut through the bs and see yourself as a reflection of the cold, uncaring universe...you can accept and move on to real emotion. Everything else is just a con game.
I told you this would happen. Economic conditions improve, change in (exports - imports) goes negative, lowers GDP instead of boosting it (has been the biggest positive factor to date), and back to square one. Now imagine if the USD strengthened temporarily, what would happen -- the current account would probably rise for that to happen, but would the change in trade outweigh that or not
I visit the hospital often and have never seen anyone turned away nor bodies laying in the street. The care may not be what you want but it is there. I also had treatment not for public use and insanely expensive. I feel very fortunate to be here. I also understand the limits of research, cost, risks and life comes with no warranty.
It smacks of how we used to practice medicine in the dark ages, when afflictions were the curse of god and people who got sick were thought of as some kind of moral degenerates.
Hoops....That gets my vote for funniest biting line on here in awhile....ROTFL
Early data suggests that global economy momentum came from unexpected corners. Relative increase in demand from continental Europe and some medium size emerging markets. It will take some time before we will get our head around this...
LBD--not an adequate response--er is not the place for the correct treatment of chronic illnesses--and hospitalizations are often only necessary because there wasn't proper treatment. If we were saving money mistreating our citizens, there would be a cold argumant for the status quo--we're not. Letting the leeches--private insurers--run the system is like letting Madoff regulate his own company.
Nope, regardless if you are for it or not now sure as hell is not the time to destroy what little is working in the economy. Fix the jobs problem first!
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Foreclosure filings in the U.S. exceeded 300,000 for the sixth straight month as job losses that boosted the unemployment rate to a 26-year high left many homeowners unable to keep up with their mortgage payments.
A total of 358,471 properties received a default or auction notice or were seized last month, according to data provider RealtyTrac Inc. That’s up 18 percent from a year earlier, and down 0.5 percent from July, the Irvine, California-based company said in a statement. One in 357 households received a filing.
---1 in 357 households.
IIRC, 30% of houses are mortgage free
WOW!
"...United States spends twice as much per person as most European countries on health care can be substantially explained, as a study released last month says, by our being fatter. "
"...According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, three-quarters of health care spending now goes to treat “preventable chronic diseases.” Not all of these diseases are linked to diet — there’s smoking, for instance — but many, if not most, of them are...."
Pretty ironic really; import oil, produce oil based fertilizer, subsidize agri-business, discard 40% of what is grown, produce cheap calories food and then go bankrupt treating high calorie lifestyle. All wasteful non productive steps.
"...United States spends twice as much per person as most European countries on health care can be substantially explained, as a study released last month says, by our being fatter. "
Not only that, we are getting shorter: Americans Are Getting Shorter - Wellsphere
And we all know we are getting dumber-- that is a given.
Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate. I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants"
Mel, you are definitely using the term "immigrant" very loosely - Puerto Ricans are US Citizens by birth and certainly entitled to public schooling anywhere they live in the United States.
Anyone change their mind on health insurance industry care yet?
Not me - but I've thought it was broke going on twenty five years now... but I'd guess I was one of the few here whose family didn't have full insurance all the time even though we could pay for it - had family members denied for pre-existings that didn't exist & fought with the insurers constantly... letters from specialists from Mayo couldn't change their decisions... it is currently as corrupt as any industry or institution in the US.
If the current system worked the calls for change would not have traction - it doesn't work & the traction is real. What kind of change is the only thing most people disagree about.
MEL, I have been in the middle of many family medical services including young ones with problems and no money. Full services and bills written off to zero. You are not even close as to services rendered after the ER, that is the main entrance to the rest of the system. System need a tune up? Yes but government control is not the answer it is part of the problem when hospitals have to give ER services and then get no money from the government to provide them. We the real taxpayer and insurance purchaser pay them Econ 101.
.......I don't know how well, "Gentlemen, yes, a beer is now .40-cents more - we're buying your healthcare - even if you already have it", will go over in the family's bars (emphasis added for tone)
Could not agree with you more: my sister developed a chronic illness when she was 14 and she has done everything she can possibly do to manage the symptoms(no cure). But she would be "uninsurable" (and possibly disabled) if she didn't have reasonably good coverage of her health care expenses through work. She's worked full time since she graduated from school, with a few periods of hospitalization for flare ups, now under pretty good control.
She also gets to be a guinea pig for new meds for autoimmune disorders. Want to know what the long term effects of X medication might be? Have people like my sister and their HMOs and insurers pay bigPharma thousands to find out. Maybe that's not quite fair, as this latest med has her symptoms under better control than she'd had in years.
But she's got osteopenia from years of having to take another medication.
If a 40 cent increase is going to make beer lovers stop drinking, then they aren't true beer lovers. Heck, smokers do their thang in the rain, snow, and other bad weather and have been taxed up the wazzu.
"Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true."
What about people born with a genetic condition who do everything to stay healthy but can't?
- common sense would tell you I wasn't talking about them...
Are they, too, depending on modern medicine to save their fat lazy asses?
That's the real problem I have with people who are currently healthy and who have some kind of bizarre feeling of superiority or superior "work ethic" over the sick because of it. They feel like they "worked" to "earn" their health, and feel that many people who aren't healthy are somehow morally to blame for their condition because they must not "work" as hard to stay healthy.
....
Did you work to earn your sense of possessing a superior intellect? Or were you to born to, not ever having had to pick up a book? I am sure you don't give the ignorant masses much of your time.
....
In my experience Europeans, like the French take far better care of themselves and are pro-active in terms of their health. Lazy, fat Americans just wait around for the next wonder drug or break-through medical technology to save them from a life time of self abuse. Why should I pay for slow motion suicide?
and culture in the USA is chock full of excuses for those unwilling to take responsibility for their bodily maintenance.
.......I don't know how well, "Gentlemen, yes, a beer is now .40-cents more - we're buying your healthcare - even if you already have it", will go over in the family's bars (emphasis added for tone)
If it only cost 40 cents more a beer I'd pay it in a heartbeat - just to make the bitching & town hallers go away I'd pay it.
Its gonna cost a lot more than that or it would have already been done long ago.
"Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true."
Richard Feynman"
Like those whose faith is that science can explain everything.
If the current system worked the calls for change would not have traction - it doesn't work & the traction is real. What kind of change is the only thing most people disagree about.
I definitely agree with you there. The problem is that I don't trust the lobbyist-driven Congress to improve the situation at all.
Health care is outstanding if you have the money to pay for good insurance. Most people don't.
My PR reference to immigrant status was done to show how inaccurate grad rates are--not a political statement.
Not that many are happy with medical insurers--who deny, deny, deny--see Erin Brokovich (sp?) Most young people are healthy and haven't gotten a chance to see Humana in action. Oldsters like Medicare--does that extrapolate into Medicare for all?
Oldsters paid in to Medicare, they had no choice. Young don't buy insurance as they don't see the value until they have a problem and then cry pre existing condition. You can expect a car insurance company to sell you coverage after an accident. In reverse old people should buy car insurance, they are far less likely to have an accident. They are not on the cell phone texting with a boom box blasting! Risk assessment!
If the trade deficit is going up, surely we can't be saving, but we must be "growing". Maybe instead of producing the 100 equivalent units of growth at the peak in 2007, we were making 70 equivalent units at the bottom late this spring. But now, whoopee, after factoring out higher oil prices, we are now making 70.05 equivalent units? OT, forgetting about protocol, but last nite, was Rep Joe Wilson of South Carolina wrong when he accused Obama of lying about no healthcare for illegals? Does anyone remember during the televised national prez debates a year and a half ago when Obama said he represented change and Hillary nodded her head no and shouted out "No, he doesn't"? And during that debate, Obama said he would include illegals in his healthcare package since they go to the emergency rooms for treatment and that dramatically increases healthcare costs.
@WisdomSpeaker There are still private school options.
So WisdomSp, are you saying that by virtue of the mere presence of 'private' schools....our compulsory primary school education laws are suddenly NOT fascism and communism because ....a private school (that you like) our options for people?
Huh?
Isn't the education still a compulsory requirement ...why would u deem it as not-fascist or communist simply cuz u can choose a public or private. option...doesnt that sound a whole lot like the health insurance debate in parts?.
You have to say that compulsory schooling even if private schools are in option, is still cmmunism and fascism....but u didnt. Instead, u jumped over to arguing that public schools are bad.
@WisdomSp Furthermore, at least in my state, drivers are not required to insure themselves (collision), only to insure against damage to others (liability).
That is fine...I'll go along with splitting hairs by even limiting ithe discussion to collission....I'll still ask: why is this not fascism and communism in the same vein as compulsory health care coverage?
@WisdomSp I will concede your point that sometimes the country needs laws which limit individual behavior for the greater good
Thank you.
In an idea world (i.e. a planet without these 6.5 billion over-emotional human beings) ...this concept (common good) would be the starting point for an objective discussion free of emotives.
Mel (profile) wrote on Thu, 9/10/2009 - 10:41 am
....Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate.
I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants" loosely.
Ok, so if we all know, readers & speaker alike, that Puerto Rico is not a foreign nation....then what?
The new buzz code-word for immigrants is not whether you (the island of PR) are under United States rule of law...but..that you....
"simply look different?".
And if so...look different than who?
Any thoughts?
I was trying to explain why grad rates can be skewed--the only case I know of personally is PRs in NYC--other areas--including FL--have true immigrants with similar circumstances --this was not intended to mean PRs are immigrants--I was clear about that--just to show that grad rates are not a good indicator--methinks that some posters like to start smarmy food fights instead of react to content--childish and foolish--so American!
Trade deficit
I'm simply amazed at how our courageous leaders, including BB, have turned this puppy around. Prosperity really did turn out to be around the corner.
Got pigged a second time....last thread had less than a hand full of comments...
lost-confused (profile) wrote on Thu, 9/10/2009 - 5:47 am
* edit
* reply
Lets look at the US's Health situation with a cold penetrating eye...
Two choices, let the poor and middle class slowly or quickly get sick and die in the public square or force everyone to be covered under a basic health coverage...
Pro-
Keeps the sick off of TV and out of the newspapers...No more tear jerking around.
Maybe, just maybe, it will it will contain/lower costs per individual by adding more individuals to the pool.
It would contribute to the public health of the nation.
Lower competitive prices of goods and services, at least within the US (doesn't do much good against third world exporters.
The Govt. mandates emergency services for free to those that can't pay in exchange for subsidies.
The Govt already provides medical insurance to Retires, Medicare, uninsured children.
At least 30% of every premium dollar spent of health insurance goes to expenses and profit.
Con-
Forces everyone to acquire coverage thru the private market.
The US has a free enterprise economic system for distributing goods and services (LOL, myth, not true since Roosevelt and the advent of the workers compensation/safety movement of the 1900's in the New England factories and mills.
Shrinks personal liberty, LOL, when was the last time an uninsured person refused medical assistance for a serious or life threatening injury or illness?
Explode the deficit...Its exploding anyway, and I am not sure how much of the additional cost is attributed to the uninsured, under-insured or illegals.
What is being proposed will not remove all the inefficiencies from the system. For the maximum effect, a single payer plan would be best. In order to reduce the enforcement, the Govt should just assume the costs of the program and build it into the tax system. That way, we will have no need for health insurance police...
One final problem are the illegals/undocumented. What becomes of them? 100 years ago, this country need unskilled labor, so uneducated unskilled immigrants were not a problem. (ie, assembly lines). There is less of a need at this time. I have always felt that the US had two choices to the health care crisis-either provide universal coverage and lock down our boarders to the illegals or have a system of voluntary purchase of insurance and the hell with the poor...
One final point on the myth of the capitalistic economic system. This hasn't existed in the US for over 100 years, if ever...We have a mixed economy....And as far as capitalists loving a capitalistic system, this is also a myth...Capitalists are in general risk adverse...
jmo
I can't wait to see what new inventions come out of this early bull market. We've had the Internet, Corian countertops and highly efficient refrigerators. What's next? Any ideas?
Our economic model really does work--bring on the
s
So that is X-M for the GDP, no? (with the increease in X being less than the increase in M)
So, when our economy strengthens, it becomes a loser.
That's just great.
The Chinese stock market and the Baltic Dry Index have an extraordinarily high correlation to one another. In recent weeks, however, we’ve seen a sharp divergence. The correlation is primarily due to China’s large export component. Is the Baltic Dry Index forecasting a slow-down in global shipping and thus a slow-down in the Chinese economy? More importantly, is the stock market (in the U.S. and in China) ignoring this potential warning sign? That has yet to be seen, but the convergence of these two indices is likely in the coming months and that either means a surge in BDI or a collapse in HK.
Asian Energy: CHART OF THE DAY: THE HANG SENG/BALTIC DRY DIVERGENCE
Looking at the seasonal adjustment for the new claims number, we see last week:
.
NSA new claims: 456,682 SA new claims: 576,000
.
.
Now this week we see:
.
NSA new claims: 460,516 SA new claims: 550,000
.
Interesting, SA may start distorting the picture due to previous seasons' Christmas hiring ramp up that will be weakly present (if at all) this year...
ETA Press Release: Unemployment Insurance Weekly Claims
Report
Hong Kong drives the BDI?
Yeah, right. Thanks for the morning humor.
C
One other bit of data on this week's new claims number from Bloomberg:
.
A Labor Department spokesman said the federal holiday in the U.S. on Sept. 7 resulted in the government estimating results for seven states: California, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, Minnesota, Virginia and Wyoming. The spokesman also said such estimates generally don’t result in large revisions in subsequent reports.
U.S. Initial Jobless Claims Fell to 550,000 Last Week (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
You get the idea that technology has maxed out, as in there is no money or effort deemed worthy presently, to make computers have more memory or be a bit quicker, is there?
Bloomie in Headline Writers Are Morons : Thursday Edition:
US Futures Advance On Jobless Claims Report ...
U.S. Stocks Rise for Fifth Day, Longest Streak Since November - Bloomberg.com
Some advance, I'm seeing Dow at kermit 0.09%, S&P at 0.08%. Doesn't take much to qualify as a green shoot these days huh?
C
How much of the change in trade deficit is related to increased physical volume, and how much is just higher commodity and goods prices?
Anyone get their NATIONAL HEALTH FREEDOM ID CARD yet?
So, when our economy strengthens, it becomes a loser.
That's just great.
There's a line of thought that trade deficits don't matter to the health of an economy. It fact, it might be a sign that the US is a super-efficient economy that logically sources from the lowest cost producers.
@Lost-Confused: Two choices, let the poor and middle class slowly or quickly get sick and die in the public square or force everyone to be covered under a basic health coverage...
If those are the only two choices you can think of, then you're a Fascist. Sorry. Only a fascist or communist government would "force everyone to be covered".
I have some healthy relatives who will go to the mattresses if they're forced to take a shitty health plan just because some bought-and-paid-for Senator thinks that's a good idea.
There's no need to force anyone to do anything. What we should do is create a reasonable system in which everyone has good options available. The current system is far from reasonable but that's no reason to "force" anyone to do anything.
So, when our economy strengthens, it becomes a loser.
That's just great.
There's a line of thought that trade deficits don't matter to the health of an economy. It fact, it might be a sign that the US is a super-efficient economy that logically sources from the lowest cost producers
But in the long-term, it still leads to economic failure if we can't employ our folks to provide them the income to purchase the lowest cost stuff.
We ultimately become the competitors with the lowest cost producers as wages recalibrate to those levels.
Counterpointer, Someone forgot, left out the word "APPEARS"
@WS There's no need to force anyone to do anything. What we should do is create a reasonable system in which everyone has good options available. The current system is far from reasonable but that's no reason to "force" anyone to do anything.
You're right: we should allow the current broken system to completely collapse before we touch anything...because we're doing so much better spending such a much higher percentage of GDP on this than anyone else. The invisible guiding hand is doing a fantastic job of leading us to "reasonable", isn't it?
Well, Wisdom Speaker, then don't HAVE to take the "health plan" but then they'd have to take the FINE!
OUTLAW HEALTH INSURANCE.
Then street gangs across the nation will start selling it.
It worked for the War on Drugs and it will work here.
New Health Care,"Just say NO".
High unemployment, expected to rise and imports are up. To me that says business is and will leave the US. Obama keeps punishing business equals no jobs. Job less recovery more government control.
Treasury Public Debt is, as of last Friday, $11.797 trillion, whereas 12 lousy months ago it was $9.667 trillion...
The actual, in-your-face federal deficit was $2.130 trillion in the last 12 months!...this $2.130 trillion increase in the national debt is just the deficit in Congressional spending, which doesn't even include the $2.6 trillion in the budget that was "paid for" by offsetting revenues!...Congress have spent $2.6 trillion, plus $2.1 trillion equals $4.7 trillion, which they spent in a $14 trillion economy! The government is spending the equivalent of 34% of GDP! Gaaahh!
Personal experience from 20 minutes ago.
For medical reasons, I now require a specific medical device for the duration of my life.
The rep with whom I dealt this summer left her old medical equip employer since they were bought out by a larger firm. The larger firm required, according to health insurance company requirements, that individuals have to pay their coinsurance for the product. Prior to buyout, the equipment provider waived coinsurance payments if there was financial hardship and absorbed the cost just to get folks the equipment that they needed.
The owners of the original equipment company are starting their own again and will pursue the original philosophy. Apparently, they're pissed off and can philosophically accept a lower profit margin in the interests of getting the devices to all levels of society. While I can afford and will pay the coinsurance, I'm now with these folks.
If that's the acting philosophy of the health carriers, bring on the O plan.
Hey who wants "doughnut holes"?
What exactly is the O Plan, homedad?
SA may start distorting the picture
I’m still inclined to see less value in our media-culture habit of citing algortithmized data (seasonal adjustments, imputed values for birth/death) and placing higher value on that than on actual numbers.
I understand there's cyclic and rhythmic noise in unemployment data...the solution there is not to "make up" numbers, the solution is to use "moving averages" of 2,3,or 4.
How would u check the accuracy of SA claims number?
How could the BLS ever prove or disprove that a SA 550,000 for claims for the week-ending was accurate?
You cant measure its accuracy by comparing it to the NSA actual number because by definition –and by purpose – it is not the actual number.
BLS admits upfront is not the actual number.
A SA number is not held to any standard of 'forecasting' of where new claims will be next week or any week after.
A SA # is not held to a standard of accurately forecasting what claims will be, say, at year end, which is something other adjusted numbers are striving to do.
A SA claims # is not even used to make YoY comparisons...and besides, since seasonality is alleged to drive the need for a SA #, a 4-week moving average of NSA would always do a better job than a SA # for YoY comparisons.
What exactly are we importing, that imports are up?
And how does that jive with consumer credit dropping lately?
Who's doing the buying, with what medium, and what are they buying? Assuming the imports are purchases.
What exactly are we importing, that imports are up?
Oil
Then what about this tho:
and the red line is the trade deficit ex-petroleum products.
in fact, outside of blog commentors and economists, many people hear "corrected" when you say, "seasonally-adjusted"....which is oh so wrong. We know that here but very few folks in the MSM and on Main Street realize that what they're assuming on 'corrected number' is simply not so.
We need to stop focusing on SA made-ups and use more valid ways to smooth NSA noise.
You get the idea that technology has maxed out, as in there is no money or effort deemed worthy presently, to make computers have more memory or be a bit quicker, is there?
We had a good run with 3D video cards. CPUs are now getting wider (multi-core) instead of faster clock speeds.
The bottleneck is bringing our operating systems and more importantly application software up to date so they can make better use of the parallel processing power in multi-core CPUs. That is not an easy thing to do, and some tasks are more suited parallel processing than others.
Stuff is still getting smaller and faster. We have not hit the physical limits yet.
Avl Dao - Denninger made the same point the other day, page 10 of the BLS report shows the raw numbers, and it's quite clear that the July-Aug decline was over 900k workers.
Adjust THAT if you're on the receiving end, algorimizers, since you damned well should be.
C
Sorry. Only a fascist or communist government would "force everyone to be covered".
@Wisdom, where do you see a line drawn then on mandatory automobile insurance (at the state level) for all drivers and owners?
And...the argument for compulsory primary school education has beeen that it creates greater social good.
Do you see that as communism and fascism?
Im just trying to see where such lines are drawn.
Outsider,
My guess could be reordering from depleted stock after the slowdown in retail sales and the other is Christmas products. Then there is manufacturing still moving out of the US.
-- What exactly are we importing, that imports are up?
Oil --
Don't forget interest on the Debt.
Outsider (profile) wrote on Thu, 9/10/2009 - 6:40 am
Then what about this tho:
and the red line is the trade deficit ex-petroleum products.
Same sh_t, smaller toilet paper dollars with which to wipe them up.
Uh, was it something I said? Dow doesn't reach futures signal, dives to -0.37%.
C
Counterpoiter, you point (pun intended) to another issue:
There are situations when it is the Actual NSA number that should indeed drive a corporate or policy decision.
If you operate a charity...yiu need to know what the actual number is at the macro level and the local level.
If Im in City Govt or County Govt and I have a massive local seasonal workforce, I need to know actual numbers cuz it impacts everything from schools to roads to social services to charities to police.
Here in NC, we're still trying to get clarity on how the state concocts its numbers.
@Avl Dao
Lemme take a shot at this: it's kind of like "states rights" and "Federalism" - the line is drawn where it's most convenient or friendly to one's immediate policy preferences or short-term gain. See the EPA, Clean Air and the Bush Administration or Gonzales v. Raich (specifically in the backlight of Morrison, Lopez and Wickard).
Edit: On my personal preferences, I find the Automobile insurance requirement to be a de-facto tax, payable to private entities, over which we have no control. It's deeply offensive, but absolutely necessary, and at least there is the fig leaf that one might possibly somehow survive without a car. Going without chemo, for example, is less optional than going without a car. I guess we could get the "Government out of Medicare" and ask grandma how that works out - no death panel to worry about, thank goodness! At least with car insurance, it is fairly heavily regulated and risk/cost is connected to something (driving skill/behavior) over which individuals can reasonably exercise control - genes not so much.
@Comrade Scott: Your criticism is misplaced. The current system is totally unreasonable and very few people have any decent options. There is no invisible benevolent guiding hand here, at all. There are many cooks who have over the decades brewed up a vile stew instead... I'm in complete agreement with your premise that reform is needed. But the reform should not compel people to do anything. If the new options are indeed better, people will switch of their own free will, and be much happier about it.
Dow Jonestown cocktail:
A jigger of markets
An ounce of the shorts short & curlies
Mix with a packet of kool-aid
Counterpointer, I think CNNMoney.com needs to change their headline: Stocks Headed For Higher Open.
Was it your fault?
hmm... yahoo says disappointing outlook on Monsanto is taking the wind out of the sails of the markets...could be an interesting day if we get more of these green shoots.
How do the Canadians feel as they are pulled into our [healthcare] debate?
I think if you had asked a Canadian what they thought of their Universal system two years ago, you'd have gotten a tepid response, focussing on extended wait times and resource constraints. We had a bit of a self-esteem issue when it came to health care.
However, watching your circus from the North has given most Canadians a renewed respect for how their Universal system functions. You'd be hard-pressed to find more than 1% of the population who would trade the Canadian system for the one in the USA.
@WS - I think your snark meter is mis-calibrated: that is precisely my point, there is no invisible guiding hand and there is no "market based" solution to the problem.
Edit: and perhaps my sensitivity meter is a bit overly sensitive on this issue...
What exactly are we importing, that imports are up?
It depends on how you state imports (as % of GDP or as a % of exports...or in absolute dollars, etc).
Anyway, even during a recession there's a lot of importing of materials for road-building, for weaponry assembled here by defense contractors, for assembly here of other durable goods, There's a lot of chemicals imported for what we here call food (machine-made consumable extruded organic products put in boxes and juice boxes, etc).
The recent NYT piece on Boeing's 787 Dreamliner showed high valuations in the imported sub-assemblies for Boeing aircraft.
File:Medicare and Medicaid GDP Chart.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I guess I was just wondering whether there has been an uptick in foregin purchases, such as Chinese goods. As I understand it, the consumer is tapped out. If it turns out that the consumer has returned to buying foreign goods, then I would see that as a sign to healthier pocketbooks, and cash purchases no less, as consumers are shedding credit (or so they say).
@Avl Dao: Non-drivers and non-owners are not required to get auto insurance. Furthermore, at least in my state, drivers are not required to insure themselves (collision), only to insure against damage to others (liability).
Also, with regard to public education: (a) There is a hell of a large element of brainwashing in the public schools here. How about yours? There is an element of totalitarian government (communism/fascism/whatever) in there... (b) There are still private school options.
I will concede your point that sometimes the country needs laws which limit individual behavior for the greater good. But health care does not seem to be one of those areas. And in each case, the restriction of individual freedom does carry a hefty social cost as well.
O, that is why a monolithic number on imports or exports should not drive our debates or policies.
These monolithic numbers we bandy about need to be carved into whats relevant and what portion (ag chemicals) are not important to questions on consumer purchases.
56% High School Graduation Rate here in Scenic South Carolina.
BSR reported that in NV it is 49%.
Gotta run, sorry.
There could be a much better market-based solution to healthcare if the government structured the rules of the market correctly. Denninger has had some good thoughts here though I don't agree with everything. We could start by requiring providers to charge a single price for a given product to all consumers of that product.
Similarly, there could be decent financial markets if the rules were different...
We are getting the crappy systems we deserve, by not regulating the government's behavior with our votes.
Wisdom Speaker:
There's no need to force anyone to do anything.
Under the current system, if you show up to an emergency room with some kind of traumatic mishap, they are required by law to blow a whole crapton of money to make sure you're "stabilized" whether or not you can pay for it or have insurance.
If you allow people to make the decision to not buy health insurance, then you give them the option of externalizing their traumatic health costs onto the hospitals who are forced by law to treat them and onto insured people who make up the difference.
There are two ways I can see to deal with this. One is repealing the law, and allowing people to bleed out in the streets if they don't buy health insurance and get harmed. This is unacceptable on a humanitarian level.
The other is some sort of mandatory minimum insurance, as proposed, enforced with a fine.
Fines seem unfair in this situation. After all, if you can't afford to buy health insurance in the first place, how can you afford to pay a fine?
I'll tell you who will be affected by the fine: People with money to pay the fine. You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Homeless people who don't have the means to pay for the insurance in the first place won't have the means to pay the fine. So who is actually paying the fine, ideally, are people with cash who decide not to buy health insurance because it's cheaper for them to stick the rest of us with the bill if they get hurt, or because they just think they're invincible.
So fines, while they sound awful, are an uncomfortable solution to what in the end is an intractable problem. The current "solution" we have, to make everyone pay for these people's care anyway, but doing it in the most inefficient, half-assed, irresponsible way possible, is no solution.
So I guess I am kind of half-warm to fines, if we can't have a public option for basic, primary care.
Outsider,
I agree with you that the consumer is tapped out, but on the other hand, every time I drive by the local wallymarts, the parking lots are filled to the brim. People are still buying crap, not as much as before I wager, but Made In China is not gone yet. I think a lot of it is seaonsal though right now with school back in session. Still believe Christmas is going to be small and necessity oriented for a lot of people. I remember my dad used to get socks and underwear every year from his parents at Christmas...may be time to reclaim some lost traditions.
WISDOM SPEAKER, leaving ONE MINUTE before I hit post! What is WRONG with you!!!
Avl Dao - absolutely the raw numbers are necessary for local policy and operations - not just charities but local gov and business too. To highlight the absurdity, think of the proportion of the 900k laid off workers, and apply to local level, but you're not permitted to plan to deal with the change of employment status of a full half of them because they're invisible due to seasonal adjustment.
Sorry, no food stamps for every second one of you because you're not seasonally adjusted. Wellll, I don't make the rules round here buddy, and I guess it's just your stiff shit that you didn't get laid off in a different season.
No Frank, we're not going to can that 15% of re-stocking due to higher unemployment in the county because the seasonally adjusted figures don't support it. Go ahead with the orders on current market share and purchasing power.
C
The bigger question about imports is one of scale.
Quite often the only way it's profitable for a company in China to make some doo-dad to sell to us, is by making a shitlode of them. It has been the business model, and everybody knew it and it was standard operating procedure on the path to getting gloriously rich, but that dog wont hunt anymore, will it?
Just getting to that funny late night thread:
mp (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 11:22 pm reply Ignore user Is this the proper moment to call for a group hug?
kcoop, can we have a group hug icon?
{ooo}
We could start by requiring providers to charge a single price for a given product to all consumers of that product.
Isn't this the community rating pricing model?
Hoop, Im not picking in you....Im just going to ask is the word not getting out that homeless or low-income people will have their insurance premiums subsidized or heavily discounted??
Yowza, looks like a whipsaw morning for Mr Market before settling into clankity clank sideways.
C
kcoop:
How about an "I con" icon, for the Unabankers?
I've never read a comprehensive defense of our present health care arrangement--only negatives about any/all changes. The rich are satisfied--because the rich always were separate from the masses. Seems to me that every other industrial power gets better results while spending much less. My son has a chronic illness--Crohn's--if his job disappears, he becomes an invalid--meds cost $5k/month--Remicade plus others. Those here that are smug and without need--get real sick and poor. You"re not very christian (notice the lower case "c"). When your competition has a better product that costs less, you emulate, improvise, or go out of business--you don't ignore or go slowly.
Don't we as US taxpayers own 79.9% of AIG?
Why don't we force that insurance company to cover all americans?
Oh that's right.
They are BK.
BK plus 180 BILLION...
--You guys know THE RULE.
Ask for an icon; hit the tip jar.
New Health Care,"Just say NO".
This is about insurance reform. not health care.
All first world democracies have universal health care, have longer life spans, and lower infant mortality rates.
The data is in, and it is a moot point. They do it often for half the cost. We know what works best and most efficiently.
This is about industry elite's and their lap dogs in congress keeping the cash cow going, and supplying a minimal amount of protection so the sheeple don't catch on.
But agree, until they actually jettison this farce, just say no.
Hoopajoops (my soon cals them hoopaloops, incidentally),
You just highlighted why some are upset regarding the fact that illegals aren't going to be covered. So illegals "won't be covered", but they will still need to go to the ER to get care if they need it. How is that going to reform anything? So who is going to pay for them? This is actually the point that some like Rush have been making, that even if you can't pay; the health care industry will fix you (I'm not advocating that point).
It seems like if we're going to let government meddle in health care, we should go to single payer. I like some of Denninger's points as well, especially in regards to pricing and requiring insurers sell what they are selling to everyone if they have a product. We're still going to have insurance cos as meddling middlemen anyway.
MEL,
I am sure that there is someone who is as bad off as your son that has no insurance or income to deal with it. They are taken care of under our current system so what changes? Nothing but government control and their track record stinks.
C,
Underscoring your point - local high school lost one-third of its enrollment yoy. Not in the projections. You may imagine the disarray.
"To this war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues."
Thomas Hobbes
Avl, this healthcare debate could go on forever. But in response to: is the word not getting out that homeless or low-income people will have their insurance premiums subsidized or heavily discounted??
I think the issue is that of course, if you're that poor, you don't have to worry about the fine - and never have, because Medicaid has always been there.
It's when you move a bump up from that level, to the working poor/lower middle class who do not qualify for Medicaid presently, but also do not qualify for having the basic necessities -- this level is going to really have a hard time affording any premiums and/or fines. Basically, it's a fine for being working poor/lower middle class. And while I'm sure the premiums will be discounted, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, as they say. It will be one more stone to carry in that sack.
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone there to make a product to be sold here that use to also be made here.
The media spins this story as if China just upped and decided to make "this crap" and "design this crap".
That's hooeey.
As with most of our problems, this 'China Problem' was a Frankensteim of our own creation done willfully and knowingly by Americans.
America achieved this via the massive push in the 1980s & 1990s (of which I was a not so tangential part of) to FIND a mfger in China and provide them with specs and designs so that we can stop making the product here and have it made there.
to FIND a mfger in China and provide them with specs and designs so that we can stop making the product here and have it made there.
How else is private equity going to make its 20% returns?
Too early for Hobbes, JD. But yes life can be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short...I prefer:
Oh, it is real. It is the only real thing.
Pain. So let us name the truth, like men.
We are born to joy that joy may become pain.
We are born to hope that hope may become pain.
We are born to love that love may become pain.
We are born to pain that pain may become more.
Pain, and from that inexhaustible superflux
We may give others pain as our prime definition.
Robert Penn Warren
burnside - totally, my county has been cutting trivial and fluffy non-vocational education programs like art, music, and languages for at least 9 months now. The local real-side economists and budget team seem well ahead of the aggregators, and little of it is pleasant or comforting. And it's a wealthy area.
C
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone to there to make a product sold here that use to also be made here.
That is the basis of capitalism, getting the best spread between user and exchange value, which translates into surplus value (always through labor).
If you don't, someone will do better, and you will fail or get absorbed.
The poor capitalist are destine to exploiting the last two people standing, one taking advantage of the other--
We will solve the health care debate, people. Everyone will be covered and there will be a ton of new jobs. :greenshoots:
I fully believe that I will be working for the government in ten years, as will 65% of you. Do you really have a problem with that?
10:10am
U.S. 2008 poverty rate 13.2% vs. 12.5% in 2007
Since we're stating preferences, this is one I like:
Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.
--Thoreau
With that, adieu until some other time.
U.S. 2008 poverty rate 13.2% vs. 12.5% in 2007
Numbers going up!!!! TAKE THE MARKET ON THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Avl Dao - know what you mean. I spent most of the 90s doing it too. The model seemed quite plausible, the tech download and trade arrangement had seemingly done its Ricardian best in Japan, Taiwan, and Sth Korea over 40 years, and the second round imitators were doing well off it, leaving aside that awkward business with unduly rapid capital account liberalization.
Try getting an approval poll now from those who gained from the general welfare improvements thereby...
C
"How else is private equity going to make its 20% returns?"
They also can do this and offer the product to the consumer for less.
It's when you move a bump up from that level, to the working poor/lower middle class who do not qualify for Medicaid ..... this level is going to really have a hard time affording any premiums and/or fines.
O, im not sure thats correct.
It's not just medicaid.
If ur working class poor, there will be a income-check/test just like there is for LIHTC and Sec 8 subsidized housing that the working poor qualify for.
With inurance premiums, there will be a sliding scale subsidy.
It's not so simple as to say:
you're poor so go get medicaid....but you...yeah you,
ur just working poor so u pay full-freight or else get fined.
And nothing inbetween.
So again, I guess the word is simply not getting out...cuz that meme has taken a life of it's own.
10:22am
Household income falls 3.6% in 2008
Avi,
The lure of not paying American wages and taking advantage of Asian rates of pay, without having to worry about pesky lawsuits by employees, or strikes by unions, or having to pay for health insurance for workers, was simply too good a deal to pass up.
C, you wound me with art, music, languages cut as fluff and trivia. But I expect it's all true - that they're cut.
Household income falls 3.6% in 2008
Numbers going down! TAKE THE MARKET ON THAT!!!!!!!!
Numbers going down! TAKE THE MARKET ON THAT!!!!!!!!
Time to make Eric weep for his (puts|calls)!!!!!
Jim Rogers:
"Marx is singing in his grave there in London as the US government now controls the auto, mortgage, insurance, banking, et al industries and he has not fired a shot,"
Germany Plans First Sale of Dollar Bonds Since 2005
get USD today, pay back with BB Dollars in 3 years. what could go wrong?
burnside - it's a mordant joke. I'm a multilingual humanities grad. I don't think it's fluff or trivia.
C
re: Germany's Benny Bonds
Is it a currency hedge play? Dollars now for cheaper dollars in the future? Why anyone in GB, Euroland, or North America would want to issue bonds in foreign currencies in this market is mind boggling to me...
10:30am
U.S. natural gas inventories up 69 Bcf last week
Time to make Eric weep for his (puts|calls)!!!!!
GO THETA DECAY GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congress have spent $2.6 trillion, plus $2.1 trillion equals $4.7 trillion, which they spent in a $14 trillion economy! The government is spending the equivalent of 34% of GDP!
RATM,
The situation is much worse when you consider that ~ 15% of our GDP is imputed and arguably not really output at all.
Less the imputations, government spending is 40% of GDP. It's even hirer if compliance costs are added in!
CR and others here are totally off base saying we need too balance the budget. It's far too late for that. A balanced budget at any point in the cycle would result in an immediate collapse of the ponzi debt system. Why do you think Krugman is so adamant about taking on gov't debt?
Welcome to the kick the can down the road eCONomy. It will likely soon be illegal not just anti-patriotic to openly talk about our eCONomic system.
P.S. Greenspan was a dingbat.
juvenal, do you agree that it 9 time sout of 10, it is an American firm approaching China to find someone there to make a product to be sold here that use to also be made here.
You are under counting - it is closer to ten out of ten.
I may be dense but I still have trouble figuring out how we are going to (1) insure 30 million (or 47 million) more people, (2) let everyone keep their existing plan (and not have employers rush to the public option), (3) have an adequate number of health care professionals treating these additional patients especially for preventative care, (4) add benefits, (5) not ration access, and (6) save money. Something does not pass the old reasonableness test.
I wish they would all just be honest about it - to fix the problem, and make it work financially, they have to institute strict cost controls and access controls - the public (especially those on Medicare) will howl about it, but when 80% of the health care expenditure is paid by someone other than the consumer, and the conusmer has no idea what care costs, it is the logical outcome.
The more immediate problem they face is close to 20 million unemployed and underemployed voters who will be hopping mad next fall. I suspect they will need to raise that debt limit a ton to buy off those voters.
Hoopajoops
your comments on use of the emergency room seem a bit ungenerous...
some years ago I had a searingly painful kidney stone attack which literally
doubled me over... I could hardly move the pain was so writhing... now, I could
have called an ambulance but at that time I was barely able to pay my 1,200 rent...
so I crawled outside and dragged myself to Columbus and finally hailed a cab...
took me to Roosevelt. I was admitted and had to cough up at least 120 dollars on my CC
which I did, inside the ER all of a sudden I had 2 or 3 doctors... they put me on a drip and gave me a shot of demerol
... when they came back 10 minutes later I told them to give me another shot of something
stronger since I was still in great discomfort... begrudingly the young doc have me a shot of morphine
and it worked like a charm... then came a plethora of tests that included the the latest and greatest CAT scan
... used some kind of vibrating device to break up the stone and then after observation of 4 hours they did another
CAT scan and said I was ready to go... the final bill came to 2400 dollars of which I paid zero, I was on UE at the
time and remember one bill and no follow ups.
....
I have a sister in law who is 43 and carrying about 90 pounds too much. well, she had to have one ankle reconstructed
with metal rods and another worked on as well. I go back to Indiana and see this people who don't take care
of themselves at all, and then when their bodies starts falling apart they yell Doctor Doctor save me!
....
I have take good care myself since I have times when I lack coverage but I look around and see people
depending on modern medicine to save their fat lzay asses
The lure of not paying American wages... pesky lawsuits by employees, or strikes by unions, or having to pay for health insurance for workers, was simply too good a deal to pass up.
well it gets better. B4 the American mgf went to Asia, the American distributors went first cuz they wanted to find an Asian source for a lower wholesale price, and then import it and sell at a competitive price, and pocket the extra profit. Soon a few American Mfrs realized they were doomed if they didnt Go Along or at least cut out this middle man; but many Mfgrs realized where this game was headed and sounded the alarm...but it got no where under Reagan and Bush I .
NAFTA and many other deals (China's not in NAFTA) over-whelmed the American firms who knew this would all End In Tears...they capitulated. But by then, WalMart's pricing policies and market dominance had forced many firms to ship jobs overseas as well.
You can replay this DVD and realize it wouldve been hard to prevent The Ending in a profit-dominated culture like ours.
BTW, there really werent ever enough strikes or lawsuits to justify the above...thats a meme. I think there should always be profit-sharing tensions between labor & owners, and between owners & local govt who want a share of the profits via taxes, and between owners & society...etc.
GO THETA DECAY GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pull,
, pull!
Mr. Market says, "Eric, I drink your
!!!!!"
Can't be honest...the emperor has no clothes. All we can do at this point is start streaking with the elites.
Lobbyist Ben Dover wrote:
MEL,
I am sure that there is someone who is as bad off as your son that has no insurance or income to deal with it. They are taken care of under our current system so what changes? Nothing but government control and their track record stinks.
Nope--I know unnecessary invalids with this disease. While he was still in college--with my insurance, Remicade was new--and he needed it. It wasn't on the formulary and J&J wouldn't let me pay cash for it--they were squeezing the insurers. The alternative for him --the cheap alternative--is long term prednisone. I can't think of a better punishment for my enemies. Destroys bones, appearance and most of the damage is permanent. Sorry to say, your response sounds smug and stupid.
All we can do at this point is start streaking with the elites.
---Thanks for the chuckle, Vonbek777.
I'll be posting the BFF poll at 6pm EST today if you want to guess "7".
Basel - this is absurd. They've only had, what, two bund failures this year, so are going for a USD issue, syndicated, not direct to market, for novelty value? London market was scathing when BoE went with a syndication in ?July.
Hell, I'll keep watching, for novelty value.
Anyhow, from across the sea, Bank of China senior rep and Steve Roach crap all over recovery prospects from a great height:
Wall Street Is ‘Myopic,’ Bank of China’s Zhu Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
C
Mr. Market says
I'm not sure how Mr. Market manages it (with every trade being two sided), but he somehow manages to make everyone (except Goldman Sachs) unhappy.
C, I more than suspected.
Still, I've had a close enough look at Florida's curriculum to know bright, thoughtful young people who will wear the mortarboard and reach for the sheepskin without having encountered Michel de Montaigne or Nicolas Poussin or the Rachmaninoff Vespers.
What lovely things we sweep into the dustpan.
homegnome:
I'm in and out at the moment.
As to your earlier question re what's O's plan?
Perhaps I used the wrong term and should've said O's philosophy in the plan. Yeah, I'm now very much a populist and the gist is that we shouldn't let people go without just because they have no money.
I have annual treatments for my problem and on more than one occasion, have walked into the waiting area to see others - obviously much poorer - there for treatment. But general conversations with staff reveal that further help, which they can't afford, would be of great benefit.
Untreated, my situation is painful and now occasionally debilitating. I put what I know they go through with the crap that I heard this AM and yeah, I buy into the philosophy. The final plan has yet to be determined and will be worked out in the meatgrinder.
Call me a softy. Later...
burnside,
Do you happen to know what Florida's HS grad rate is?
I'm curious...
HomeGnome, can't wait, I am ready for BFF and the weekend! And an announcement...there is hope for the future...my four year old likes the original Star Wars better than Episode I. He likes Chewie and Han. I was so proud!
Terry,
Include the illegals no matter what the fertilizer salesman shouted last night. Proof is he (as past administrations) is not addressing deporting illegals. Laws ignored are useless and this one will be.
Too early for Robert Penn Warren, Vonbek777...I prefer:
I hurt myself today
To see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
The only thing that's real
The needle tears a hole
The old familiar sting
Try to kill it all away
But I remember everything
-- Nine Inch Nails
Good on ya, Vonbek777
YouTube - Star Wars - Episode IV - Trailer (original 1977)
I have take good care myself since I have times when I lack coverage but I look around and see people
depending on modern medicine to save their fat lzay asses
What about people born with a genetic condition who do everything to stay healthy but can't?
Are they, too, depending on modern medicine to save their fat lazy asses?
That's the real problem I have with people who are currently healthy and who have some kind of bizarre feeling of superiority or superior "work ethic" over the sick because of it. They feel like they "worked" to "earn" their health, and feel that many people who aren't healthy are somehow morally to blame for their condition because they must not "work" as hard to stay healthy. It smacks of how we used to practice medicine in the dark ages, when afflictions were the curse of god and people who got sick were thought of as some kind of moral degenerates.
HomeGnome--graduation rates are not always what they seem. Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate. I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants" loosely.
"......people here illegally will not be insured by this program"
.......though the Healthcare Bill being considered disallows the verification of citizenship for anyone being treated.......
Gnome, not off hand. But let's see . . .
2008 was 79.4pc.
Yep - no screening on eligibility, and EMTALA requring ER treatment means illegals will be covered.
I'm not sure how Mr. Market manages it (with every trade being two sided), but he somehow manages to make everyone (except Goldman Sachs) unhappy.
'manages' is the right word...
still have trouble figuring out how we are going to (1) insure ...more people, (...(3) have an adequate number of health care professionals treating these additional patients especially for preventative care, (4) add benefits, (5) not ration access, and (6) save money.
I believe it's possible after I finally had surguries after 4 decades of never being operated on. The inefficiency and the mind-boggling fees paid were ridiculously. My insurer was hit with bills from a gazillion labs and vendors and specialists all claiming they did something for me by virtue of only producing some billing code. Minimal checks and balances.
I now have an $19,000 big toe thanks to minor work done on a toe that was basically usable. (and I had to wait 6 weeks cuz the surgeon was flooded, in his words, by elective surgeries scheduled in advance of the 'Summer Sandal Wearing" season for women).
My out-of-pocket was negligible so I guess I wasnt suppose to notice the ineeficiencies and fraud and intra-profession cronyism where docs send medical business partners some extra business (in my opinion) And that's just my example.
2006: Haves and have nots
2009: Halves and halve nots
I find it very disappointing that the President continues to mislead the public about the supposed benefits of the healthcare program. And I think Mish did a very good job analyzing Obama's speech in his column last night.
Do you happen to know what Florida's HS grad rate is?
HS Grad Rates as of 2006: link
Seems like the entire South is pro-Uneducation.
Straight from Uncle Sam's Dept of Ed:
Thanks for the reply burnside.
The haunting Johnny Cash version
YouTube - Johnny Cash Hurt
Mr. Slippery,
Good one... I always thought Inexhaustible Superflux would be a great name for a band...but no one I knew thought it was. Warren has it right though, once you cut through the bs and see yourself as a reflection of the cold, uncaring universe...you can accept and move on to real emotion. Everything else is just a con game.
I told you this would happen. Economic conditions improve, change in (exports - imports) goes negative, lowers GDP instead of boosting it (has been the biggest positive factor to date), and back to square one. Now imagine if the USD strengthened temporarily, what would happen -- the current account would probably rise for that to happen, but would the change in trade outweigh that or not
Insulin pump?
MEL,
I visit the hospital often and have never seen anyone turned away nor bodies laying in the street. The care may not be what you want but it is there. I also had treatment not for public use and insanely expensive. I feel very fortunate to be here. I also understand the limits of research, cost, risks and life comes with no warranty.
It smacks of how we used to practice medicine in the dark ages, when afflictions were the curse of god and people who got sick were thought of as some kind of moral degenerates.
Hoops....That gets my vote for funniest biting line on here in awhile....ROTFL
@racial,
I love that cover by Cash. He died shortly after that.
Early data suggests that global economy momentum came from unexpected corners. Relative increase in demand from continental Europe and some medium size emerging markets. It will take some time before we will get our head around this...
If Mish thought the Republican they put up "won" that debate, that tells you all you need to know about Mish's article.
He's usually spot on, but with this issue, he's
I love that cover by Cash.
Me too...
Anyone change their mind on health insurance industry care yet?
Look at
go.
LBD--not an adequate response--er is not the place for the correct treatment of chronic illnesses--and hospitalizations are often only necessary because there wasn't proper treatment. If we were saving money mistreating our citizens, there would be a cold argumant for the status quo--we're not. Letting the leeches--private insurers--run the system is like letting Madoff regulate his own company.
Yes, I now support the Johnny Cash plan...
YouTube -
C
"You can't say A is made of B, or vice versa. All mass is interaction."
Richard Feynman
HG,
Nope, regardless if you are for it or not now sure as hell is not the time to destroy what little is working in the economy. Fix the jobs problem first!
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Foreclosure filings in the U.S. exceeded 300,000 for the sixth straight month as job losses that boosted the unemployment rate to a 26-year high left many homeowners unable to keep up with their mortgage payments.
A total of 358,471 properties received a default or auction notice or were seized last month, according to data provider RealtyTrac Inc. That’s up 18 percent from a year earlier, and down 0.5 percent from July, the Irvine, California-based company said in a statement. One in 357 households received a filing.
---1 in 357 households.
IIRC, 30% of houses are mortgage free
WOW!
OT
Big Food vs. Big Insurance
By MICHAEL POLLAN
Published: September 9, 2009
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR; Big Food Vs. Big Insurance - NY Times
"...United States spends twice as much per person as most European countries on health care can be substantially explained, as a study released last month says, by our being fatter. "
"...According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, three-quarters of health care spending now goes to treat “preventable chronic diseases.” Not all of these diseases are linked to diet — there’s smoking, for instance — but many, if not most, of them are...."
Pretty ironic really; import oil, produce oil based fertilizer, subsidize agri-business, discard 40% of what is grown, produce cheap calories food and then go bankrupt treating high calorie lifestyle. All wasteful non productive steps.
trivial and fluffy non-vocational education programs like art, music, and languages
next step, farm camps for the kids---the vocational jobs are all filled already, or overseas /snark/
S'more re-education camping?
mel - how do you explain the overwhelming numbers of insured being very satisfied by their health care and insurance?
"...United States spends twice as much per person as most European countries on health care can be substantially explained, as a study released last month says, by our being fatter. "
Not only that, we are getting shorter:
Americans Are Getting Shorter - Wellsphere
And we all know we are getting dumber-- that is a given.
Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate. I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants"
Mel, you are definitely using the term "immigrant" very loosely - Puerto Ricans are US Citizens by birth and certainly entitled to public schooling anywhere they live in the United States.
Anyone change their mind on health insurance industry care yet?
Not me - but I've thought it was broke going on twenty five years now... but I'd guess I was one of the few here whose family didn't have full insurance all the time even though we could pay for it - had family members denied for pre-existings that didn't exist & fought with the insurers constantly... letters from specialists from Mayo couldn't change their decisions... it is currently as corrupt as any industry or institution in the US.
If the current system worked the calls for change would not have traction - it doesn't work & the traction is real. What kind of change is the only thing most people disagree about.
MEL, I have been in the middle of many family medical services including young ones with problems and no money. Full services and bills written off to zero. You are not even close as to services rendered after the ER, that is the main entrance to the rest of the system. System need a tune up? Yes but government control is not the answer it is part of the problem when hospitals have to give ER services and then get no money from the government to provide them. We the real taxpayer and insurance purchaser pay them Econ 101.
"You can't say A is made of B, or vice versa. All mass is interaction."
Richard Feynman"
And not only mass. Everything.
.......I don't know how well, "Gentlemen, yes, a beer is now .40-cents more - we're buying your healthcare - even if you already have it", will go over in the family's bars (emphasis added for tone)
Could not agree with you more: my sister developed a chronic illness when she was 14 and she has done everything she can possibly do to manage the symptoms(no cure). But she would be "uninsurable" (and possibly disabled) if she didn't have reasonably good coverage of her health care expenses through work. She's worked full time since she graduated from school, with a few periods of hospitalization for flare ups, now under pretty good control.
She also gets to be a guinea pig for new meds for autoimmune disorders. Want to know what the long term effects of X medication might be? Have people like my sister and their HMOs and insurers pay bigPharma thousands to find out. Maybe that's not quite fair, as this latest med has her symptoms under better control than she'd had in years.
But she's got osteopenia from years of having to take another medication.
OT, Natick luxury condos going for 70% off, Developer resorts to auction for Natick luxury condos - The Boston Globe
11:00am
U.S. gasoline inventories rise 2.1 million barrels
U.S. crude inventories fall 5.9 million barrels
If a 40 cent increase is going to make beer lovers stop drinking, then they aren't true beer lovers. Heck, smokers do their thang in the rain, snow, and other bad weather and have been taxed up the wazzu.
"Not only that, we are getting shorter:"
Gravity is stronger under the US, so it's not our fault.
"Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true."
Richard Feynman
Hoopajoops
What about people born with a genetic condition who do everything to stay healthy but can't?
- common sense would tell you I wasn't talking about them...
Are they, too, depending on modern medicine to save their fat lazy asses?
That's the real problem I have with people who are currently healthy and who have some kind of bizarre feeling of superiority or superior "work ethic" over the sick because of it. They feel like they "worked" to "earn" their health, and feel that many people who aren't healthy are somehow morally to blame for their condition because they must not "work" as hard to stay healthy.
....
Did you work to earn your sense of possessing a superior intellect? Or were you to born to, not ever having had to pick up a book? I am sure you don't give the ignorant masses much of your time.
....
In my experience Europeans, like the French take far better care of themselves and are pro-active in terms of their health. Lazy, fat Americans just wait around for the next wonder drug or break-through medical technology to save them from a life time of self abuse. Why should I pay for slow motion suicide?
and culture in the USA is chock full of excuses for those unwilling to take responsibility for their bodily maintenance.
If the health insurance lobby, big pharma and the AARP support Obamacare, any rational human being should not.
That's why they call them "sin" taxes.
Ho Ho
Ask the Duke if the KR did marshmallows.......
.......I don't know how well, "Gentlemen, yes, a beer is now .40-cents more - we're buying your healthcare - even if you already have it", will go over in the family's bars (emphasis added for tone)
If it only cost 40 cents more a beer I'd pay it in a heartbeat - just to make the bitching & town hallers go away I'd pay it.
Its gonna cost a lot more than that or it would have already been done long ago.
"Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true."
Richard Feynman"
Like those whose faith is that science can explain everything.
How is personal income defined?
Im curious if it means personal income for those employed declined, or did personal income decline becuase more people are out of work/lower hours?
If its the latter, a decline doesn't mean employed people are getting paid less. Just means the average is lower because there are more unemployed.
If you have the equation for personal income please post a link.
oh Please.....
of course they are satisfied......just like the interest only morgtagees are---until it all blows up
If the current system worked the calls for change would not have traction - it doesn't work & the traction is real. What kind of change is the only thing most people disagree about.
I definitely agree with you there. The problem is that I don't trust the lobbyist-driven Congress to improve the situation at all.
Health care is outstanding if you have the money to pay for good insurance. Most people don't.
Pavel,
I was thinking of that quote more in terms of matters financial...
My PR reference to immigrant status was done to show how inaccurate grad rates are--not a political statement.
Not that many are happy with medical insurers--who deny, deny, deny--see Erin Brokovich (sp?) Most young people are healthy and haven't gotten a chance to see Humana in action. Oldsters like Medicare--does that extrapolate into Medicare for all?
Make Health Insurance Illegal!
"Pavel,
I was thinking of that quote more in terms of matters financial..."
Well yes, JD, I suppose it would work there, as there seem to be quite a few dogmatists in the field.
Is Congress going to make lobbying by the "Health Care/ Insurance Industry" illegal?
......a 40% increase on a 1-dollar draft beer paid by a retired low-income vet is EXTREME. Ask one = yes it IS!
Oldsters paid in to Medicare, they had no choice. Young don't buy insurance as they don't see the value until they have a problem and then cry pre existing condition. You can expect a car insurance company to sell you coverage after an accident. In reverse old people should buy car insurance, they are far less likely to have an accident. They are not on the cell phone texting with a boom box blasting! Risk assessment!
Importing....food stamps? America is sooo f*cked somebody should call the abuse hotline.
If the trade deficit is going up, surely we can't be saving, but we must be "growing". Maybe instead of producing the 100 equivalent units of growth at the peak in 2007, we were making 70 equivalent units at the bottom late this spring. But now, whoopee, after factoring out higher oil prices, we are now making 70.05 equivalent units? OT, forgetting about protocol, but last nite, was Rep Joe Wilson of South Carolina wrong when he accused Obama of lying about no healthcare for illegals? Does anyone remember during the televised national prez debates a year and a half ago when Obama said he represented change and Hillary nodded her head no and shouted out "No, he doesn't"? And during that debate, Obama said he would include illegals in his healthcare package since they go to the emergency rooms for treatment and that dramatically increases healthcare costs.
@WisdomSpeaker There are still private school options.
So WisdomSp, are you saying that by virtue of the mere presence of 'private' schools....our compulsory primary school education laws are suddenly NOT fascism and communism because ....a private school (that you like) our options for people?
Huh?
Isn't the education still a compulsory requirement ...why would u deem it as not-fascist or communist simply cuz u can choose a public or private. option...doesnt that sound a whole lot like the health insurance debate in parts?.
You have to say that compulsory schooling even if private schools are in option, is still cmmunism and fascism....but u didnt. Instead, u jumped over to arguing that public schools are bad.
@WisdomSp Furthermore, at least in my state, drivers are not required to insure themselves (collision), only to insure against damage to others (liability).
That is fine...I'll go along with splitting hairs by even limiting ithe discussion to collission....I'll still ask: why is this not fascism and communism in the same vein as compulsory health care coverage?
@WisdomSp I will concede your point that sometimes the country needs laws which limit individual behavior for the greater good
Thank you.
In an idea world (i.e. a planet without these 6.5 billion over-emotional human beings) ...this concept (common good) would be the starting point for an objective discussion free of emotives.
In my experience Europeans, like the French take far better care of themselves and are pro-active in terms of their health.
The also have a Universal health care system.
The desire to take care of oneself and the entity which pays the final cost of providing health care are mutually exclusive and uncorrelated.
Mel (profile) wrote on Thu, 9/10/2009 - 10:41 am
....Many immigrants want their children to speak "perfect" English, send them to school in the states for a couple of years, and then return home to graduate.
I worked with many Puerto Ricans in that situation--and, yes, I used the term "immigrants" loosely.
Ok, so if we all know, readers & speaker alike, that Puerto Rico is not a foreign nation....then what?
The new buzz code-word for immigrants is not whether you (the island of PR) are under United States rule of law...but..that you....
"simply look different?".
And if so...look different than who?
Any thoughts?
I was trying to explain why grad rates can be skewed--the only case I know of personally is PRs in NYC--other areas--including FL--have true immigrants with similar circumstances --this was not intended to mean PRs are immigrants--I was clear about that--just to show that grad rates are not a good indicator--methinks that some posters like to start smarmy food fights instead of react to content--childish and foolish--so American!