Corus Bank: "The Great Enabler of Condo Madness"
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CalculatedRisk on Wed, 09/09/2009 - 5:28pm (382 comments)
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I finally got a reply from Sheila Bair but it turned out to be spam.
I want my trophy bank.
Back to Obama, do you really think he wants 2 terms ? He gets a decent pension after 4 years then goes on vacation. I'd clock out early too.
the fact that Corus is still a going concern is a disgrace to our banking system.
i realize it is a going concern in name only, but still, talk about a zombie bank, sucking up deposit money that should be in the hands of a worthy competitor.
Anyone else think they are dragging their feet on shutting down Corus due to political pressure? Having the FDIC go broke right before a big health care vote might not be good timing ...
Apparently, the Corus sang on and on and on and on and......... then the music suddenly stopped.
Smoker? Just go die somewhere --nova
there are many studies that have estimated the fiscal savings from INCREASED smoking and obesity incidences. lot easier to say "go die somewhere" to a smoker and not a breast cancer patient...
From a CR post on 9/5:
/snip
Foresight estimates the biggest problems are in loans for condominium construction, with 38 percent of all construction loans troubled. Mr. Anderson says even that might be an understatement. He pointed to Corus Bank, a Chicago institution that specialized in condo loans. Its latest report shows that its capital is gone and that it expects losses on two-thirds of its construction loans.
OFF THE CHARTS; Construction Loans Falter, a Bad Omen for Banks - NY Times
---That's going to leave a mark.
A big bloody mark.
The "Ambiguity of Hope " speech ...
Obama Speaks Loudly But Carries a Small Stick
i think they don't want to take the hit to the deposit fund, so are scrambling to find someone willing to get into a "loss share" agreement - off balance sheet risk does not have to be recognized up front.
the fdic is trying to kick the can down the road as much as its customers.
as much as Bernanke talked about the faults of Japan during the lost decade(s), I think he is finding out very quickly why they went that route.
the fact that Corus is still a going concern is a disgrace to our banking system.
Ghost,
How about the fact that the FDIC is broke, yet they are allowing banks like GS to issue debt with an FDIC guarantee!
Talk about a sham.
Which alphabet program is GS using?
Carpe Corus.
Which alphabet program is GS using?
TLGP
Although I am not sure the last time GS issued debt under it.
Love the sentiment of the O speech - best c hildhood friend had to declare bankruptcy (and lose house to foreclosure) due to spouse's illness - but could only think of the dollar signs.
As to the Tao whatever, it can be paid some government dollars to serve as a swine flu quarantine facility.
And the Repub SOB who called out "liar" should be shot summarily. And I'm a republican.
"How about the fact that the FDIC is broke, yet they are allowing banks like GS to issue debt with an FDIC guarantee!"
yeah, did you see that story today about the FDIC possibly extending the program, so the sudden shutdown doesn't shock the markets? what??? they announced when it began it would end on 10/31, what surprise is there? not like they are shutting it down with 2 days notice.
as much as GS using the facility, an even bigger sham is GE using it.
and of course none of those "guarantees" count against the fund. technically the fund is leveraged to infinity against those liabilities.
Are we liveblogging this one too?
Not much is happening.
In fact nothing has happened on Corus for months and months and it damned well should have.
Oh, I see...
C
TLGP = ?
Trans Lesbian Gay Pony?
Is this one of those condo complexes encroaching on the Everglades? Stopping these things will prevent ecological disaster, so this story has a silver lining.
I think the condo part is sexy. Just like the salesmen say "You'll impress the ladies with your condo. That is why you should buy it. Think about all the sex you'll get from living at such a prestigious address." My response was always "I don't need help getting sex, and I won't buy it, because it is a losing concept."
Does no one ever stop to appreciate the buildings these banks leave behind after they are gone? Someone has to benefit from cheap housing/office space.
I know in my city CRE couldn't compete with condos (construction costs, potential returns, harder financing because you can't pre-sell CRE space that will be leased), and then the banks (all located in Toronto) pulled all their funding for condos asap while continuing new lending for Toronto-based CRE and condos.
The whole shell game of the government is becoming comically absurd now. Had President Obama instilled rule of law and not change it when it no longer suits Wall Street then he could have established trust in government, but all we're getting is the same games the Bush Administration played. The Bush Administration used the War on Terror to justify usurping rule of law, and now the Obama Administration uses Economic Stability as a justification for usurping rule of law and its enforcement.
Well, I did make it a link to the FDIC site...
TLGP = Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program
Recent Bloomberg article.
Treasury licensed group pederasty
My doctor can't cure obese taxation! I am gonna die!
"Anyone else think they are dragging their feet on shutting down Corus due to political pressure?"
Does a bear have claws?
---That's going to leave a mark.
A big bloody mark.
Every time I hear that I go into the bathroom to make sure I've got plenty of ky left in the container. Don't want to run out right when bernanke and Baire are just getting started.
Check this link, and look at all the crap that Corus enabled in the Portland Oregon South Waterfront... it used to be a useful industrial area for working on ships.
Now, it has empty and unfinished condo buildings, condo buildings turned into 'luxury apartments', and nothing else. A park with some grass, and a couple of saplings.
I think about this area, whenever I read James Kunstler (yeah, I know, I know).. when he says that 'Americans are going to have to realize that we made a mistake, thinking working docks and waterfronts should be turned into Disneyland retailers and high end condos... "
Don't get me started on Phoenix condos ... they are in even worse locations, with poorer prospects.
Incidentally, this would never have happened if Ben Bernanke were alive.
The KY should be in the bedroom, Poic.
But however you and mrs. poic like to get down is fine with me.
I prefer Reefer Madness. No, not really. I prefer "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World." And, of course, Mad magazine. Didn't that go out of business in the 80s?
Oops... link to marginal puffery about Portland Oregon condos.
Susan's Guide to South Waterfront Condo Projects in Portland Oregon
I always forget things when I get into the middle of a rant.
"And, of course, Mad magazine. Didn't that go out of business in the 80s?"
The "What, me worry ? " slogan is perfect for today.
Too funny. Thanks for the laugh
Has anyone updated the losses to the FDIC on the IndyMac and the other loss-share deals from last year? While it may not make any difference in the end, at least the Wells Fargo-Wachovia deal did not require any "initial" FDIC assistance.
Sporkfed.
YouTube - What - Me Worry?
B.Eason - that's an interesting point. I hadn't really thought of it like that before. Any other interesting parallels?
C
HomeGnome (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 6:46 pm
reply ignore user
The KY should be in the bedroom, Poic.
But however you and mrs. poic like to get down is fine with me.
I keep the costco industrial size container in the bathroom. I keep a smaller more intimate dollop of it in an antique ebony container wood box with pearl inlay by the bedside next to the candles and horsehair whip. Got all my bases covered (:
Mortgage Pig homepage Tanta comment...
......
I do note that unfortunate comment threads can have some redeeming value, if we choose to look at it that way. For instance, without the eruption of misbehavior a few threads ago I'd have missed bacon dreamz's request that we all get a bong.
Even Freud once admitted that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. We have commenters who need to be reminded that sometimes intellectual pursuits are just intellectual pursuits. Their subject might be finance, but that does't make them disguised philistinism.
And if that anonymous character with the repeated demands for "disclosures" keeps it up, I will write a post listing every letter opener, coffee cup, umbrella, tote bag, pen, pencil, chip clip, stress toy, coaster, can-holder and mouse pad with a logo on it I have ever received over the last 20 years from mortgage market participants. That would be longer than any UberNerd post I have ever written or will write. Fair warning.
IIRC this may have been when Tanta may have become concerned about the comments ......
Mad magazine would have had a field day with Bush and Obama.
Thanks !
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The stock market's recent rally is likely to run out of steam soon and equity prices may collapse again, Jeffrey Gundlach, chief investment officer at Los Angeles-based mutual-fund giant TCW Group Inc., said Wednesday.
....."We're standing on the edge of a major default wave," he said. "Defaults are the elimination of dollars. You could eliminate so much actual wealth that this could be the source of a strong dollar rally."
Stock market may collapse again, Gundlach says - MarketWatch
as much as Bernanke talked about the faults of Japan during the lost decade(s), I think he is finding out very quickly why they went that route.
LOL - ya history sort of repeats in the same way water runs down hill - it might not follow the same channel exactly but it does still flow 'down hill'.
outsider, damn NH's tiny...
http://admin.state.nh.us/accounting/FY%2010/Monthly%20Rev%20August-10.pdf
I don't know about a market collapse. The Fed still has $400 billion in MBS to buy. That's a lot of liquidity.
@scone
In reference to Eisenhower's famous temper.
See the previous thread. A James Reston article.
Eisenhower, in his own words, describing what he'd do if ANYONE accused him of misleading the American People.
"Finally - I probably will not mention a personal position again for some time"
"I think it is likely that Corus will be seized this week"
okay
Life is full of "imho"s. Lets leave it there.
(just make'n fun CR)
great line over at financialsense.com: "gold is sniffing out a 2nd stimulus package" (OK really it would be more like the third or fourth, but who is counting)
Market Observation - Tim W. Wood 12.04.2009
My personal prediction is that the cretins in Congress will go for a "save the retailers" package, but instead of sending checks they will send coupons redeemable at your local big box store. What good crook can resist the urge to bribe the judge?
"The Fed still has $400 billion in MBS to buy"
C'mon, Nuke, you weren't born yesterday. That $400bn is extendable without limit. It's infinite.
It's not "wealth", it's paper markers in an exchange.
Nuke (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 9:57 pm reply Ignore user I don't know about a market collapse. The Fed still has $400 billion in MBS to buy. That's a lot of liquidity.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I don't think there is much liquidity in the system. The so called liquidity that has been put in the system isn't moving, it's back stopping losses on balance sheets. For now at least.
Condo madness ....it used to be Reefer madness back in 1930's
YouTube - Reefer Madness
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Australian employment fell in August by more than economists estimated, adding to signs the nation’s economy may cool as government stimulus spending slows.
The number of people employed dropped 27,100 from July, the statistics bureau said in Sydney today. The median estimate of 21 economists surveyed by Bloomberg was for a decline of 15,000.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Philippine exports fell for a tenth month, extending the longest slump in seven years and suggesting a nascent recovery in the global economy has yet to revive demand for Asian-made electronics and other goods.
Shipments abroad dropped 25.4 percent from a year earlier to $3.31 billion in July after declining 24.8 percent the previous month, the National Statistics Office said in Manila today. That compares with the median forecast for a 20.8 percent plunge in a Bloomberg News survey of eight economists.
This liquidity has been propping up asset prices for months.
@Scone
The point is, Eisenhower was someone to be reckoned with. He had one hell of a temper and used it often, even in public.
He would not have allowed that character to tell him he was a "liar" in front of the American people.
There would have been a response.
The tao of bullshit loans...
@ mp (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 7:08 pm
Eisenhower also warned us of the military industrial complex.
YouTube - Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.
This was blown off and was beginning of demise of America...
"Core Us" will likely precipitate a need to top up FDIC from Congress. Having this bill come due now is bad for healthcare reform and any other spending initiative Democrats had hoped to pass before mid term election campaigning starts in earnest early next year.
I don't know how long FDIC can carry this without a formal closure/recognition of losses, but I am willing to bet they can do it for months more if they have to.
" demise of America"
We're all dead? Nobody told me.
Nuke (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 10:08 pm reply Ignore user This liquidity has been propping up asset prices for months.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
That's not liquid, for now.
About 3 years after Eisenhower speech, the MIC had The President of the United States/Commander-in-Chief shot down and murdered in Dallas b/c he was going to get us out of the Cold War
PS - patientrenter you're a bore...
"The tao of bullshit... "
How does defending your honor become bullshit?
Yeah. Nice, eh?
a need to top up FDIC from Congress.
Debt ceiling will need to be raised first. that can't be too good for public relations, either...
Honorable loans were few and far between this decade...
"the MIC had The President of the United States/Commander-in-Chief shot down and murdered in Dallas b/c he was going to get us out of the Cold War"
Oh, now that's really interesting and entertaining!
There would have been a response.
mp - it isn't 1950. Politicians are different, public is different & media is different.
Any response would have been 'the lead' tomorrow and killed any momentum they gained from the speech - similar to the LAST time at the press conference where they asked O about the black professor & the cop [Harvard I believe]... and he stepped right into it with both feet... content & theme of the press conference was completely blown away by the brouhaha over 'race'.
This was one of the first times since the election that Team O showed discipline & stayed on message. Surprised me a bit that he was able to do that.
Honestly, I just don't understand why they don't just raise the limit, say, to 30 trillion. That way you don't have these things coming along every couple of year......er..... months. 30 trillion should carry us til next year, at least.
@ patientrenter (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 7:15 pm
Sounds like you're on wait list for a lobotomy...please get one soon
kinda quaint that the "meals and rooms" and tobacco taxes account for nearly half of the state's general revenues.
mp, I think dryfly is right here. Which one of the two (the congressman or the President) looks like an ass now because of that incident?
"...it isn't 1950. Politicians are different, public is different & media is different."
I guess. It's a goddamn shame though.
"..lobotomy.."
I still enjoy this board, but grade-school banter used to be kept to a minimum.
With any luck a large meteor will strike the earth soon and simplify our lives.
@ patientrenter (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 7:20 pm
Hilarious that suddenly lobotomy is grade-school banter
You brought it on and will get no quarter from me !
I guess. It's a goddamn shame though.
Ya in some ways it is a shame it isn't 1850 - then O could have caned the bastard... or challenged him to a duel... but we've moved on.
Anyway - when in a 'campaign' - speech givers have to blow off hecklers. What is a bit surprising is that the heckler was a 'congressman'.
Well, vacationers are a large part of the economy.
As for tobacco, until recently people would come from all over to buy cigarettes in NH - much cheaper than bordering states. But they raised the tax, now it's about the same.
There would have been a response. - mp
Well, obviously. But not throat ripping. And I still think Nixon had a worse temper. But that's not really the point, either.
What is a bit surprising is that the heckler was a 'congressman'.
I thought it was Rob Dawg. I mean, has he been here in the past couple hours? Hmmm?
km4, you are confused. Banter has humor. You're a waste of my time.
What is the point? That politicians aren't literal throat rippers? Lewinsky might differ.
Obama should has just stopped the speech completely. Kept silent and stared at him for a good 30 seconds while on live tv.
That would send a message.
If you want puerile, but at least snarky, including liveblogging the speech, then there's always Wonkette. Just checked and there were some killer comments... At least those I didn't miss completely because I'm more than 1/100th of a second behind DC scandal and shenanigans (!).
C
"We're all dead? Nobody told me."
country is done.
"Kept silent and stared at him for a good 30 seconds while on live tv."
I like that.
Yes, that would have sent a message.
@patientrenter (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 7:26 pm
Then I suggest (you pussy ) that put me on ignore because chew up and spit out fools like you in everyday business endeavors.
"That would send a message"
Yes, that the speaker can be easily distracted, as planned. When you see a trap, it's best to walk around it, and not plant your foot into it.
Nah. Staring silently for 30 seconds would have just been weird.
We're a divided country now. Better to just leave that one alone.
Kept silent and stared at him for a good 30 seconds while on live tv
do teleprompters come with an operator pause button?
BT +1
IT - It sounds like you had success finding a new job. Congrats!
Outsider - in commonwealth parliament, it is forbidden to call another member a liar. There are repercussions from the house speaker.
Yes the US is divided, but calling the POTUS a liar on live TV should be tantamount to asking for your resignation.
That would send a message.
Again it would have been the lead - that would have been all the media talked about for weeks afterward. If you want the hecklers' message to be your message speak to the hecklers. My guess is they prepped for the possibility of such a response - didn't know when or where it would come but had to KNOW it would come and didn't bite on it.
Thanks Outsider... just another contract. Shorter terms... slightly less pay. My IT area is niche enough to keep work flowing through downturns.
At the very least, it was certainly disrespectful.
There is obviously a lot of animosity on Capitol Hill.
*Also a lot of national stress and angst.
"calling the POTUS a liar on live TV should be tantamount to asking for your resignation"
It is, in Kazakhstan.
How does defending your honor become bullshit?
When it means honor killing a female relative that shamed the family by getting raped.
edit: sorry for the OT, but even the deepest of well intentioned sentiments can go awry
Damn we are way off in the OT weeds tonight...
At least no one threw a shoe...
That's true. Let's get back to discussing "madness".
My guess is they prepped for the possibility of such a response
I'm sure you're right, but really would like to have seen O say something to the effect of -
the fuck you think this is the House of Commons
So what's the hit to the DIF going to be once FDIC gets off their dead ass and seizes Corus?
Anyone?
Guess it shows my age. However that "lier" outburst was past rude.
If you disrespect the office of the Pres, you also show disrespect for your own position in Congress. Just the way I see it.
There is obviously a lot of animosity on Capitol Hill. - O
And posturing, and drama, and grandstanding. Same old, same old.
Why can't the FDIC shut down Corus and send a check to each depositor with instructions to deposit said check in some other bank? Seriously. And hold the loan portfolio for later disposition.
Corus is another example of the pool of sick we are currently lying in (face down).
We are terrified of enforcing our own financial laws because our society might collapse if we did.
I must work off some steam with the weights...later.
Heck, the yutes even usedta respect their elders!
"My guess is they prepped for the possibility of such a response - didn't know when or where it would come but had to KNOW it would come and didn't bite on it."
I doubt it. I don't remember anyone calling a POTUS a liar as he addressed both houses of congress. Hard to prep for that
Erm, Healthcare Blues ... Lightnin Hopkins?
YouTube - LIGHTNIN HOPKINS " GOIN DOWN SLOW"
I have had my fun, if I don get well no more...
C
You would have think "liar" would have been shouted at Bush.
"we are way off in the OT weeds tonight"
We are. When the financial world was teetering on the brink, and only a few people realized it, they stuck together almost like a persecuted minority. When the financial world tumbled down the hill, we watched spellbound, fascinated daily by momentous changes.
Now, we are watching the clean up. People coming and going with mopping brushes and water. Much less entertaining.
All that's left is the hard work of making needed changes in our economy and financial system. It's not obvious which choice is best. There's more political gaming than facts.
CR has my considerable respect for what he has done here. But it may be time to change the primary theme to disseminating the proposals for systemic change, and good critiques, instead of reporting the consequences of past errors.
"If you disrespect the office of the Pres, you also show disrespect for your own position in Congress. Just the way I see it."
Except when you go back home to South Carolina. They'll be throwing campaign donations at him.
The appropriate response would be "Don't shoot the messenger(monkey)."
Sad when money trumps manners.
But then that seems to be the country we have become.
or his son.
Wilson to run for attorney general - Local / Metro - TheState.com
As for the lead...
Obama heckled by GOP during speech: 'You lie!'
WASHINGTON — A South Carolina Republican lawmaker shouted "You lie" at President Barack Obama as he addressed Congress on Wednesday, prompting a GOP senator to call for an apology.
In his speech in the House chamber, Obama was telling lawmakers that the Democratic plans for health care overhaul do not cover illegal immigrants.
"The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," Obama said.
"You lie!" Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouted from his seat, jabbing a finger in the air.
Following the speech, it was Obama's Republican rival from last year's presidential race for the White House who defended the president.
It was "totally disrespectful," Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said on CNN of Wilson, a conservative who has opposed Obama's economic remedies. "There is no place for it in that setting, or any other, and he should apologize for it immediately."
Wilson's spokesman Ryan Murphy did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Wilson's outburst caused Obama to pause briefly. Behind him House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., could be seen glaring in Wilson's direction...
Based on the outburst from Joe Wilson, and the President's response, who comes out of it looking better?
There's your answer as to what response is appropriate.
Behind him House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., could be seen glaring in Wilson's direction...
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
That wasn't a glare, that's how she looks all the time
I guess that would depend on which "side" of the Purple Corporate Fascist Party you are on, patientrenter.
dryfly, there's an update to the article you linked:
A Republican lawmaker from South Carolina apologized Wednesday after shouting "You lie" at President Barack Obama as he addressed Congress.
In his speech in the House chamber, Obama was telling lawmakers that the Democratic plans for health care overhaul do not cover illegal immigrants.
"You lie!" Republican Joe Wilson of South Carolina, shouted from his seat, jabbing a finger in the air.
In a statement later, Wilson said he regretted the incident, saying he let his emotions get the better of him. He extended "sincere apologies" to the president for what he called "this lack of civility."
Except when you go back home to South Carolina. They'll be throwing campaign donations at him.
Come on it isn't THAT bad... he didn't use the 'N' word. Besides he's now the new front runner in the pre-primary 2012 GOP sweepstakes... Palin better watch out.
Oh, those South Carolina people. Always up to no good.
Outsider - wow, just wow!
I never thought that would happen... well there goes his campaign contributions...
. I don't remember anyone calling a POTUS a liar as he addressed both houses of congress.
In the current climate anything is possible. Health insurance reform draws the battle lines like no other
issue I'm aware of.
Hopefully Joe Wilson's son will take a hit too.
Wilson to run for attorney general - Local / Metro - TheState.com
"that would depend on which "side" of the Purple Corporate Fascist Party you are on, patientrenter"
Too much insider jargon, and stepping right up to the line on Godwin's law. What do you mean, in plain English?
The apology should be as public as the outburst.
In the current climate anything is possible. Health insurance reform draws the battle lines like no other issue I'm aware of.
I can think of three bigger right off the top of my head...
SS
Gay Marriage
Abortion [the 'A Bomb' of politics]...
Well, TARP was a pretty emotional subject. The Iraq war. Supreme Court justice nominations...... Maybe it's more unusual when battle lines aren't drawn.
Educate yourself and then we will talk.
Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
patientrenter has been rubbing our noses in our ignorance of this legislation. I'm currently an uninsured american. Can anyone tell me what I can expect if this bill passes?
Well, racial, you'll be insured. And you'll pay premiums. What else do you need to know?
What sort of premiums? How will they be collected?
patientrenter has been rubbing our noses in our ignorance of this legislation. I'm currently an uninsured american. Can anyone tell me what can I expect if this bill passes?
A very long delay until anything looking like full implementation whatever it is.
BTW - I'm sorry to hear that - we've been there done that - it sucks.
"Educate yourself"
It's hard to hold a book when my uneducated knuckles scrape the ground all the time, HomeGnome. Who's the most famous Fascist of all time? Fascist is the term you introduced, right?
Overall it was a good speech but long have I watched what people do and not what they say. Actions are louder than words but boy howdy do we sling the words on this site.
I was bothered by the racist brobama comments and other than RR, noone else calling bullshit. I also see a complete breakdown of belief among the commentariat that anything can be done to save our country. Most here seem to think that collapse is inevitable followed by a demagogue and a corporatist state. I also think this has a better than average odds of happening but stopping this slide will not be done by continued politics of division but dreaming of a better society and then working towards accomplishing that dream. If you believe we have the wrong president with the wrong skin color then you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Remember it is easy to sit in the stands and boo.
"What sort of premiums? How will they be collected? "
the usual method -- from your pay.
Who's the most famous Fascist of all time?
---Who?
You will be forced to buy health insurance, Hoyer said , mandatory health insurance for an unemployed 20 year old will cost them around $200 a month, after fed. subsidies. He didn't explain the cost for an unemployed 30, 40, 50 year old. If you don't show proof of health insurance, you will be fined between $3500-$5000.
Well, racial, they haven't said yet what kind of premiums. I suspect overpriced ones, but I'll keep my opinions to myself. And they'll be collected by that huge guy coming around the corner with the club... no, I mean, you'll probably send in a check just like usual. And if you don't, they will fine the cr*p out of you to make sure you do next time.
Does anyone have the video game rights to "Condo Madness"?
Somehow, I think Leisure Suit Larry should be in this game, and it should be in Vegas, baby.
patientrenter, this is for you
because you are having a rough night. Sometimes it's like that.
Being on the road for endless hours always gives me an opportunity to listen to right-wing radio, and after enduring hours of the unendurable, I could take no more of their pandering to the lowest denominated, but if anything they've become even more shrill since I last had occasion to listen...
The divide is great.
Ah man, not Leisure Suit Larry!
racial: Can anyone tell me what I can expect if this bill passes?
The only numbers I've seen are for the bipartisan "Baucus compromise"
"The <a href="http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090908/D9AJCL500.html>Baucus [legislation] would a require that all Americans get health insurance once the system is overhauled. Penalties for failing to get insurance would start at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families. Households making more than three times the federal poverty level - about $66,000 for a family of four - would face the maximum fines. For families, it would be $3,800, and for individuals, $950."
My Way News - Fines proposed for going without health insurance
Funny how those numbers have already been figured out.
I suspect overpriced ones
I suspect UNDERPRICED premiums well under actuarial true cost with the remaining 'cost' coming from cram down [there's that word again] of the health industry and the rest from 'general funds' [debt & taxes].
Why overprice to the voter?
JD - you take great pains to go to the woods for solitude - why do you need a radio?
"---Who?"
Education, HomeGnome, education....
Externalised Costs - between typing and refreshing and my two-year old batting the screen, I thought I counted at least double figures of people on the board calling bullshit, in their customary way. That is, pretty acute and snarky. It doesn't need to say "hey, that's BS" to be the overwhelming message.
If anyone was convinced by or substantively informed by the speech, do tell. I'm genuinely interested.
C
It was "totally disrespectful," Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz
This Democrat has a lot of respect for Senator McCain.
A road trip isn't much of one without a radio...
Bill Clinton was called a liar by the House...
Damned shame that he piles the crap on the insurance companies - not that it isn't deserved - but turns his head away from the big financials.
I think that if he'd shown some guts earlier, then the row being hoed now would be significantly easier.
I suspect UNDERPRICED premiums well under actuarial true cost
Well, they're underpriced if you consider all the palms they wil have to grease on the way up.
And the fact that healthcare costs have been driven up so much by the insurance industry as it is (self-payers have such a higher price tier than insured payers).
But like I said, I wouldn't want to pollute this blog with my own personal opinions, so I'm not actually saying any of this.
Also, the "subsidies" they'll be giving everyone with less than $33k in income are really just tax credits - so go ahead and pay those now-mandatory premiums out of your low-income pocket, the government will just get you back in April. Assuming you have enough tax liability, that is - as far as I can tell, it's not a refundable credit, so you can only be subsidized as much as you would have owed in taxes. A neat trick, huh?
To whoever said the fines could be over $5K - the fine is actually $750-1500 for a single person, and the maximum fine for a family is $3800.
JD - My advice. Pull out the radio and throw it away. There's nothing like driving for hours with the company of your own thoughts.
Since when has fear of stating a personal opinion stopped anyone here?
crickets chirping
I can opt to not have a car. I can choose to rent instead of buy. I can choose not to live but it comes at the tough price of not living. Are they really proposing to add costs to those poorest americans who are already struggling? How the hell can Barack claim Ted Kennedy as a mandate? Was Teddy in favor of fiscally raping the impoverished?
Well, the later it gets the more intolerable my opinions become.
So
The health insurance lobby backed Obama on this months ago. I think they'll be alright. 45 million new customers
Being on the road for endless hours always gives me an opportunity to listen to right-wing radio, and after enduring hours of the unendurable, I could take no more of their pandering to the lowest denominated, but if anything they've become even more shrill since I last had occasion to listen...
The divide is great.
Been there done that too.
What's really a gas is sitting around the 'continental breakfast' at a chain motel in central podunk and watch my fellow natives as we eat our frosted flakes & waffles and watch Fox News. It would really blow the minds of some of you coasters.
The divide is indeed great.
[Just for yucks - I think the continent in 'continental' they refer to here is North America - it resembles NOTHING anyone would serve anyone else in continental Europe - just sayin']
Likewise, Outsider.
But I like my waffles on my plate, not on the air.
Thanks, Outsider. One of the disadvantages of political discourse in the USA amongst ordinary people is that it tends to get reduced down to a one dimensional view of the world, based merely on hpw far to the political left one is, or to the right. People can lose their ability to form independent conclusions, and some discussion becomes merely a declaration of [political] tribal membership, with just enough interesting intellectual content to form a thin veneer, and sometimes not even that.
And I made the mistake of being drawn in by those who had already fallen prey to this lowering of standards, so I contributed to the lowering of standards. Tut-tut. I will be more careful. Thanks for giving me enough of a moment of self-awareness to realize what's going on and withdraw. Best wishes.
There's nothing like walking for days in the wilderness with the company of your own thoughts, surrounded by nature...
Driving by car in an hour the distance of what it would take me a week to walk is way too fast for me to think, and it's nice to have a chamber orchestra playing Dvořák in quadraphonic~
@patientrenter: "Who's the most famous Fascist of all time?"
I'm pretty sure it's Barack Hussein Obama, if I recall correctly from Fox News. He's calling for death panels and everything.
Come on patientrenter - don't get all Joe Wilson on us now... we love the old 'pr' too.
thanks, dry. you always maintain an even keel and stick to facts and reason. I just need to take a little break until I can operate at half your standards again.
So apparently the consensus here is another scam approacheth?
Is this the proper moment to call for a group hug?
His D opponent, an ex Marine, has seen off the wall donation increases since the speech interruption.
Don't ask, mp, and I won't tell.
C
Well thx - I don't always keep an even keel but there isn't much you can do on the intertoobz but blow your own mind if you let 'them' get inside it.
It has been interesting times though - glad you post even when we disagree.
patientrenter (profile) wrote on Wed, 9/9/2009 - 8:15 pm
Thanks, Outsider. One of the disadvantages of political discourse in the USA amongst ordinary people is that it tends to get reduced down to a one dimensional view of the world, based merely on hpw far to the political left one is, or to the right.
I was recently chastised here and called a "right of center" person based on an observation of happy collectors of UE benefits who were not looking for jobs. I have also been called a "left winger" and "left wing liberal". It can get very confusing for such a simple mind like me...
Sure wish people would learn to engage others and analyze their statements or thoughts rather than resort to such one-dimensional drive-by attacks on those they perceive to feel differently about something.
Is this the proper moment to call for a group hug?
Have you washed your hands? Do you have your surgical mask on ? It is flu season you know.
Looks like China is encouraging its commrades to buy gold.....guess they find it a better investment than the US debt instruments........
China, Bernanke, and the price of gold – Telegraph Blogs
His D opponent, an ex Marine, has seen off the wall donation increases since the speech interruption.
So then I take it D Kos is still running...
@Externalized Costs -
I am also somewhat dismayed by the nihilism in the content of a lot of the comments, and while I think we are basically already a corporatist state, I don't think libertarian/anarchist spoutings about "purple fascists" do anything but further the cause of corporatism: divide and conquer. The rush by the SCOTUS majority to re-hear Citizens' United and overturn nearly a century of precedent (mmm...radical judiciary anyone? Or is that legislating from the bench?) signals that it can get a lot worse, and likely will. Still, the value of this site has always been what is for the most part fact-based, objective debate, and it's a bummer to see the great divide appearing here too.
I missed the speech - the Whitehouse YouTube link was down, and I had to read the Times' text. The speech wasn't bad, and the Joe Wilson BS has made Joe Wilson look like the POS he is. When I was an undergrad, I took a great course on the cause/coming of the Civil War: the prof's thesis was that the real cause was the breakdown of civil, workable political discourse, not slavery, and not industrial policy or states rights or any of the other famous "issues"...the problem was the breakdown of the political system in working through those issues. The notorious caning incident stands out in this regard, and Wilson is a clear echo of this...not terribly surprising he is from SC.
I agree with MP: Obama needed to get beyond the Congress, get to the public, and in so doing, get the Congress by the balls, ala LBJ. It took LBJ years to get there though.
you surround me dryfly
"Have you washed your hands?"
It's 10:30. I know where my hands have been.
@MP Is this the proper moment to call for a group hug?
Snork!
I would expect premia to be the cost to be the same as Kaiser Permamente. Not for profit doesn't mean it's running a threadbare charity; just as many overpaid bureaucrats.
What could be interesting is starting this NfP from scratch, without all the legacy systems and cultural inertia.
It's 10:30. I know where my hands have been.
LOL!!!
underneath the thin facade
is a thick veneer
Counterpointer, lord of subtle snark, I salute your slippery jabs at many comments and opinions. I, unlike you, was not able to find any condemnation other then RRs on the previous thread in response to the brobama comments. You are the resident semiotics expert...maybe I missed it.
Pres Obama's speech was substantive in labeling the disinformation being used by the GOP and putting the blame on the health insurance companies for creating a system that victimizes so many of our fellow citizens. The President has redrawn the battle lines and made the sides easier to understand. He has also staked his presidency on delivering health care reform. Should health care reform simply be a disguise to force all Americans to carry private health insurance then I promise to work hard at defeating Pres Obama and the Democrats in the 2010/2012 elections. I will await the final bill the President signs before I give up on his administration. I will also return and shout MEA CULPA if this proves to be the case.
This is an all or nothing moment for the Democrats. I hope they realize the stakes.
Taleb's doing a new hyperinflation hedge fund:
Black Swan Fund Makes a Big Bet on Inflation - WSJ.com
The beat goes on......
At 11:14 PM ET
Markets »
Japan
Nikkei
10,452.51
+140.37
+1.36%
HangSeng
21,170.18
+319.14
+1.53%
China
Shanghai
2,921.62
–24.64
–0.84%
Data delayed at least 15 minutes
Thx girl bear - loved the link on Chinese gold too - lost in all the non-econ OT but relevant as hell. When their J6Ps start buyin' gold en masse instead of 'sterilization bonds' or the Shanghai bourse... its close to the end... IMHO.
It is a pity about the one-dimensionalization of US politics. The nice thing is that it's actually not as bad as some other places. I recall an old friend coming back from a trip to Europe in 1989. Very excited about the real enthusiasm and passionate political commitment and debate in some of the remote places she'd visited. Very partisan and fierce, but she thought other Europeans and US people were way too milquetoast about which side they were on in politics. Where did she visit? Croatia, Montenegro, and Serbia. Oh, well.
The democrats were at one time the party of racism and xenophobia. No less, the Republican party was once the liberator of the oppressed and the opponent of the establishment.
I dare say the original definition of a liberal is one who questions authority and opposes the establishment. In this sense, all of us Americans (United Statesians?) should consider ourselves liberal. We brought a lot to this world by challenging authority.
We should also always respect liberal journalism. Liberalism is at the heart of the purpose of journalism in a free and secular society. By that I don't mean Democrat, I mean challenging authority. A conservative (pro-establishment) newspaper, TV news program, or whatever, should be either A) a contradiction in terms, or B) propaganda.
Now, I hate to say it, but a true liberal would at least question Obama and his policies or at least be skeptical of them.
Need I say in Russia, the conservatives happen to be communists and the liberals are capitalists?
also shocking to hear China has lost 20 million jobs...........but what is the unemployment rate in a country of (is it?) 3 billion?
I don't think libertarian/anarchist spoutings about "purple fascists" do anything but further the cause of corporatism: divide and conquer.
I agree with much of the libertarian rhetoric which is one reason it annoys me. A few key compromises would go a long way towards fixing the current system. Insistence on some mythical perfect America which never existed is counterproductive.
I'm very serious about the 32-hour workweek. It's a neutral solution to a lot of the current problems, it doesn't cater to special interests, it's hard to exploit politically.
in a country of (is it?) 3 billion? Good Lord, no:
China — Population: 1,330,044,544 (July 2008 est.)
Need I say in Russia, the conservatives happen to be communists and the liberals are capitalists?
Or at least 'were'... 'communism' is likely to be 'new' there again...someday... just won't happen while a lot of those who lived through it are still alive.
Is this the proper moment to call for a group hug?
As long as we don't have to do some corny cheer while squishing our man-boobs together in a half-hearted chest bump, then I'm game.
dryfly:
we've been expecting the other shoe to drop for a long, long time.
I can only assume that it's being dropped from a very high level.
"I'm very serious about the 32-hour workweek"
It's got possibilities... How come you didn't mention this before now, Broward?
"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”
Baron M.A. Rothschild
Population of China 1.33 billion.............I read that they are moving back to the farmland/rice paddies from the factories......
"As long as we don't have to do some corny cheer ..."
Hey, having spent countless hours in the harmony hut as a child, I was only asking.
I want to be a team player here, you know, and make a positive emotional contribution.
This was one of the first times since the election that Team O showed discipline & stayed on message. Surprised me a bit that he was able to do that.
Now imagine if a Dem had did that to Bush. Congressman or not, they would be on a flight to an undisclosed location before the speech was over.
For all of his faults, Bush had a pair and got stuff done. The new guy not so much.
Thank you noob.
Broward:
There was some article in the past week about some cities moving to four day weeks, but I'm too punchy to find it.
Somehow, copping a feel on noob isn't really making a positive emotional contribution.
And the population of all Africa isn't even 1 billion, IIRC. Mismatch of producers and consumers.
How come you didn't mention this before now, Broward?
There's impedance in the ideosphere.
I first posted about the 32-hour workweek almost ten years ago in a couple of the Usenet groups.
Nobody could see the possibility of it in spite of the historical evidence.
Japan is expanding their holiday schedule in an effort to do the same thing, although at a much smaller level.
Somehow, copping a feel on noob isn't really making a positive emotional contribution.
Oh, so that was you. There was definitely someone with their hand on my butt just long enough to make the entire exchange awkward.
I want to be a team player here, you know, and make a positive emotional contribution.
If we're the team, does that make CR the coach and Conjure the manager?
dryfly:
we've been expecting the other shoe to drop for a long, long time.
I can only assume that it's being dropped from a very high level.
Ya like an asteroid from space. I think everyone is waiting for it which would - if I was a true 100% contrarian - make me think it isn't due anytime soon - at least until few would expect it.
I'm not a 100% contrarian though.
"Somehow, copping a feel on noob isn't really making a positive emotional contribution. "
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Excellent.
You can't tell, but I'm using wi-fi to type this from my closet.
Broward, you are truly on a different level sometimes.
Congratulations (seriously).
G'night, folks.
@Broward - yes, I've agreed with you before on that issue. I don't think there's anything particularly either Libertarian or Anarchist about a 32 hour work week. Really, if anything, it's socialist, and will be strongly opposed by a corporatist state - which is why Americans work more hours than just about any other 1st world modern economy.
The essence of Libertarianism is the dream fantasy of total pure individual freedom and autonomy - either Ayn Rand or Jefferson's Citizen Farmer - and it is entirely unrealistic as it is impossible to completely isolate oneself from the broader society and system, and at the same time it does divide and conquer as it makes it very difficult for the "little guy" to have allies to help him "stand up" to the 800 pound gorillas. Massive risk shifting onto individuals - and it's being going on to beat the band for a long time, but in real earnest since Reagan.
The health care debate - pooled risk - is actually a perfect example of this. Just stop and look at how group policies compare in just about any measure to individual policies, and look at who is suggesting what type of solution to the problems we face. The "Purple Party" BS is just that - there are large and real differences between these two approaches.
Night, Homedad43 & dryfly.
I'm in and out of this thread this evening as well, madly dashing to the crib to jam in the soother before the youngest wakes up. So if anyone ever wonders why my responses sometimes take half an hour or half a day, that'd be it.
I'm very serious about the 32-hour workweek. It's a neutral solution to a lot of the current problems, it doesn't cater to special interests, it's hard to exploit politically.
It's out there, if not exactly in the mainstream....
What’s wrong with a 30-hour work week?
I know you've laid out your case before now, broward, and I've thought about it. I actually like it a lot, for personal reasons. But, my liking it for personal reasons doesn't mean it's a good direction for the entire economy. In fact, it makes me evaluate the arguments for and against more harshly, to try to remove my personal bias in favor. Here's the part I get stuck on: If it's really better for us to organize ourselves this way, then how come that doesn't show up in individual actions, so we just get there slowly, raggedly, and naturally?
I suspect most employers would want 40 hour a week 'coverage' for 32 hours of pay.
My McDonald's Big Mac has arrived.
I have one once a week.
I can admit it here.
it's socialist, and will be strongly opposed by a corporatist state
yes but eventually the system will re-balance, one way or another. The chinese and the indians are a lot of the problem because they, too, are paying sub-par wages to sustain consumption. The thing is going to equalize no matter what anyone says or does. It's how it equalizes that matters. It can either be dysfunctional and serve the interests of a few people or it can be efficient and serve many people.
Ha, not only is it out there, but the French have been practicing it for a while...what the heck is the point of constant efficiency/productivity gains for the broader society, if not to reduce work?
"I can admit it here"
Fascist multinational-loving pig!
That's the thing about gov't HC, they'll nag you like a mommy: "lose weight! stop smoking! cut down the drinking! wear a seat belt!" Deep down, that's what a lot of Americans can't deal with. They want to do whatever and have someone else pay the price.
"Fascist multinational-loving pig!"
But, but, but,...I like the secret sauce.
Externalized Costs - maybe I assumed too much about the basis of the comments. I should probably pipe the hell down, as I have no dog in this fight, I'm a fully insured employer-funded non-American, and have had no serious misfortunes or misadventures with the health system here (mostly MD and DC). But jeebus I have ground my teeth over the guidelines, processes, systems, in-network terms, out-of network terms, transaction costs, errors, conflicting advice, over-prescription, over-testing, defensive assessment, and endless metric tonnes of paperwork. That's when it works. I can only imagine when it doesn't.
Anyhow, I'm somewhat reassured that a number of other sites seem to have all had angry pills slipped into their cocoa tonight...
C
We can't be more than 10-20 years from being able to download ourselves into some static device, at which point all these cares of the flesh just go away (unless someone wants to play mental games and create virtual worlds that maintain the misery). Well we can be, but it's nice to dream. At that point though we'd better pray that the robots behave.
I know you've laid out your case before now, broward, and I've thought about it. I actually like it a lot, for personal reasons. But, my liking it for personal reasons doesn't mean it's a good direction for the entire economy. In fact, it makes me evaluate the arguments for and against more harshly, to try to remove my personal bias in favor. Here's the part I get stuck on: If it's really better for us to organize ourselves this way, then how come that doesn't show up in individual actions, so we just get there slowly, raggedly, and naturally?
I like it because it is almost an implicit recognition of the lack of improvements in labour productivity, on a personal level. When I look over the economy, and how it's evolved, I realize that, when I'm holding a can of soda pop, it is conceivable that the very first time that this can has been physically touched by a human being was when I picked the case up off the pallet at the grocery store. From the time the bauxite was mined, the aluminum smelted, the sugar cane/corn syrup grown, the flavours mixed, the contents poured into the can, the cans boxed into a case, the case stacked on a pallet, the pallet loaded on a truck and then shipped to the store, a human hand has never touched it.
How many different items are exactly the same? The value of labour in our society is changing, in my opinion, and moving toward occupations where dramatic increases in output per person do not occur as frequently or smoothly. I think we'd find that total output would be hardly changed if we dropped eight hours off the working week.
It's already a de facto standard in many places. Many of the IT workers won't admit it but in reality they work far less than forty hours. When I worked for the University, I had a total of 51 days off per year. That's a 32-hour work week and it's common practice in universities.
I'm considering buying GOLDX. I can admit that here.
mp,
Rip the throat outta that
- enjoy!
But, but, but,...I like the secret sauce.
I had a Big Mac this evening for the first time in weeks, so you'll sense no judgement from me. That secret sauce is like crack.
Many of the IT workers won't admit it but in reality they work far less than forty hours. - b
Seriously? All our friends are doing 50 hours and up. They are jammed, and the corporate PTB will not hire.
"Rip the throat outta that ..."
Thank you.
I also like the cholesterol, 75mg.
God, I do love cholesterol.
"Ha, not only is it out there, but the French have been practicing it for a while...what the heck is the point of constant efficiency/productivity gains for the broader society, if not to reduce work?"
True but in my experience most people want to keep working. And why should the government say they can't? There's too much desire to best the Jones' and too many new whizmos to buy for the kids to stop working at 32 hours. Oh, and the new plasma teevee and Hummer. To say nothing of the HELOC used to pay for that fancy vacation in the Caribbean.
That said, our company has put us on 32 hour weeks by force. They won't balk at our coming in on our days off, but our pay has been reduced 20%. Go figure.
Ha, not only is it out there, but the French have been practicing it for a while...what the heck is the point of constant efficiency/productivity gains for the broader society, if not to reduce work?
Well, yes, that would be the point for the broader society but who's asking them?
It has to be organized and fought for. It isn't going to be a gift of benevolent capitalists--like the 40-hour week, it's collectively advantageous but provides no obvious advantages to a business owner who goes it alone. (Generally speaking, that is--I'm sure there are exceptions and I'm guessing Broward can point some out.)
I found this interesting in the Don Fitz article I posted above--I knew nothing about the Kellogg experiment.
One of the least-known flirtations with the 30-hour work week was by the cereal giant, W.K. Kellogg Company. In 1930, the company announced that most of its 1500 employees would go from an eight-hour to a six-hour work day, which would provide 300 new jobs in Battle Creek. Though the shorter work week involved a pay cut, the overwhelming majority of workers preferred having increased leisure time to spend with their families and community.
New managers who began running Kellogg had no enthusiasm for the shorter work day. They polled workers in 1946 and found that 77% of men and 87% of women would choose a 30-hour week even if it meant lower wages. Disappointed, management began examining which work groups liked money more than leisure and began offering the 40-hour week on a department-by-department basis.
How long did it take them to get rid of the 30-hour week? Almost 40 years! The desire to have more time to themselves was so strong that it was not until 1985 that Kellogg was able to eliminate the 30-hour work week in the last department.
God, I do love cholesterol. - mp
Cholesterol is only a couple of atoms away from testosterone. Also the hormones injected into the beef. Like a drug straight to the brain.
@WH - they don't want to keep working - they want to make more money: have the benefits of greater "productivity" - what they really want is greater efficiency - more product for less labor. I take your point though.
Seriously? All our friends are doing 50 hours and up.
Billing fifty hours and working fifty hours are two different things.
IT guys find a lot of ways to spend time on intricate things that they like to spend time on.
And they work dilligently to build a priesthood of obscurity around it to protect it from financial scrutiny.
I'm seriously considering hitting the sack. I can admit that here.
And they work dilligently to build a priesthood of obscurity around it to protect it from financial scrutiny.
It's like you're inside my brain, and I don't even work in IT.
Get out of my head!
Well, the people I work with are unhappy about the work hours reduction. They want more money. Some of them are a bit worried about the reduced pay.
@Yalt - I did not know that, but I do recall reading some analysis which suggested that the period of human history with the most leisure time was the hunter-gatherer period. In other words, all of our advances have been loses....
"Cholesterol is only a couple of atoms away from testosterone."
Thanks to you and the internet, I've learned something new.
I can't share this knowledge with my old cardiologist--he's dead--so I'll tell my new one.
Well, nytol!
Hunter-gatherer leisure time?
That must be spent scratching one's balls and throwing rocks at bears. LOL
And they work dilligently to build a priesthood of obscurity around it to protect it from financial scrutiny. - b
Actually, everybody I know is working their ass off. And not fooling around, either. A lot of the deadwood was shed after the tech wreck, and there have been hiring freezes, so no new blood. And very few independent contractors being hired. maybe they are the ones who are not working?
There's too much desire to best the Jones' and too many new whizmos to buy for the kids to stop working at 32 hours
But that's not going to happen. Because as we've already seen, the harder they work, the more stuff is made, the faster profits fall which leads to layoffs which reduces income to spend on more stuff.
You can put a ton of effort into it if you like, like the chinese and indians are but there's not going to be a reasonable return. That's why we have fake paper. To keep the belief alive. The Crash is a de facto admission that we're at a point of saturation.
Uncle Billy! Welcome back. Get kicked off gawker huh?
C
That must be spent scratching one's balls and throwing rocks at bears. LOL
Change "throwing rocks at bears" to "commenting on CR" and you've pretty much nailed my leisure time.
I think this guy has hit on an important dynamic here; it may well be the answer to patientrenter's question of why this hasn't simply evolved through individual actions.
The defense of these waste distribution territories is based on natural alliances and loyalties generated by working together in a craft, business, or profession. The image of doing necessary and socially beneficial labor safeguards economic territories. To recognize that the work could be done with 50 to 80 percent less labor is to invite the elimination of one's job.
Wasted Time, Wasted Wealth
Bank of China Provides $120 Million Loan On New York Times Building
Sep 9, 2009 5:50 PM, By Sibley Fleming
How long does it take for a borrower to secure a first mortgage on 21 stories of the New York Times Building? After countless rejections by lenders, about six months, according to Ben Harris, managing director and head of domestic investments for W.P. Carey (NYSE: WPC). The New York investment firm announced today that it has closed a $120 million non-recourse loan on the landmark tower with the Bank of China.
“Overall, it’s very telling that W.P. Carey got the loan from the Bank of China,” notes Victor Calanog, chief economist with New York-based research firm Reis. It is telling because the China Investment Corp., a $300 billion sovereign wealth fund, is reportedly considering large investments in U.S. commercial real estate via the U.S. Public-Private Investment Program, or PIPP. China’s foreign reserves now stand at $2 trillion.
Bank of China Provides $120 Million Loan On New York Times Building
Actually, everybody I know is working their ass of
shrug.
All I can say is that at least 1/2 of the places I've been in since 2001 weren't like that.
They had the appearance of a lot of work, I'll give you that.
A lot of makework and churn to maintain job security.
" I think we'd find that total output would be hardly changed if we dropped eight hours off the working week."
Well, I admit that my gut tells me that too. In fact, I practice that myself, and find it is quite effective. But it's a bit uncomfortable, because I lead a large group of people, in a very large organization with a driven culture. I'd like it to be both effective AND comfortable.
I have a BIL who used to lead several thousand research people at a traditional large European company. He explained how he expected to be home for dinner at 6pm, without going in at the crack of dawn. And on vacations together for 2 weeks he would only call in maybe twice, with no emails. And the company did just fine. He was very familiar with the large US operation, and other US companies, and he always joked about how the US folks would have to constantly cover their tracks when they goofed off, pretending it was productive work. Example: sales conferences. Or long days filled with long meetings or poor, slow decision-making. He much preferred getting as much as possible when he was at work, and coming home early, and getting his European vacation time to do with as he pleased.
Memphis Daily News - Foreclosed Condos Still Might Go Like Hotcakes
London Suicide Connects Lehman Lesson Missed by Hong Kong Woman - Bloomberg.com
Hi CP
I'm grandfathered in over there since I generated their two or three biggest pageview stats (ever?)
Oh ..., the html title-thing is gone? Sorry.
As it turns out, cholesterol and fat content are both measures of food...flavor...
"Change "throwing rocks at bears" to "commenting on CR" and you've pretty much nailed my leisure time."
Or scratching eachother's balls.
Hey Doc
Comrade Scott,
My observations scratched the surface, you laid bare the issues.
I always leave CR wiser then when I sat down. The tone has shifted here and simple one liners rule the threads. I scan the posts looking for the long paragraphs and the effort of some stranger putting out their thoughts on a topic. Agree or disagree I respect the effort, time and courage to show their thought process.
We get one shot on this spinning ball. g'night
C- no harm no foul
I spent 12 years not able to afford to offer my employees health insurance due to cost. Small business in America needs this to have a chance in whatever happens over the next few years. I view affordable health care as a right and necessity for our economy/people.
Also sorry to surround you there (with posts) UB, nothing offensive I hope...
Business Insider says China is into us:
China Wants Our Real Estate!
I did not know that, but I do recall reading some analysis which suggested that the period of human history with the most leisure time was the hunter-gatherer period. In other words, all of our advances have been loses....
That reminds me of the section in Hobsbawm's history of the industrial revolution in England where he talks about the decline in education among workers when they were forced into factories. When the entire family was engaged in piecework at home, one person would read aloud while the others worked. In the factories that opportunity was lost and the workers and their families no longer had an opportunity to educate themselves.
It was a primary grievance of the Luddites as I recall. (Maybe not quite so primary as the threat of mass unemployment, but....)
Oh and CNPC hasn't been exactly slow before they just received this loan...
China's CNPC gets $30-billion loan for overseas buys
China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC), parent of Asia's largest oil and gas producer PetroChina, said it secured a $30-billion (U.S.) state loan to fund overseas expansion, as Beijing seeks to secure resources for the world's fastest-growing major economy.
The Chinese government, sitting on more than $2-trillion in foreign exchange reserves, has this year stepped up its backing of state companies scouring the globe for assets and raw material supplies from Australia to Africa and South America to Russia.
CNPC said it entered a 5-year loan deal at a favourable interest rate, with China Development Bank, the policy lender behind most of the $46-billion loan-for-oil pacts this year.
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Negative
[insert paragraph of dense text here]
[insert new thought on old subject here]
"Business Insider says China is into us:"
Well, they've already got our aerial refueling technology, our superquiet propellor technology, ...
why not our real estate?
All I can say is that at least 1/2 of the places I've been in since 2001 weren't like that. - b
Maybe we're talking about different things. The peeps I know are at Intel, Microserfs, etc. As well as some small independent guys, 'business solutions' types. Not bureaucratic IT types.
AHA! Caught. I was just fishing for that one, but your syntax gave you away... The reverse side of brocade has the same threads, as my ol linguistics prof used to tell me.
What was your esteemed contribution?
C
Re: "Negative"
I'll take that as a positive!
The sun rises about the same time as the son, which is not nearly enough hours away.
Well, they've already got our aerial refueling technology, our superquiet propellor technology, ... mp
And our pollution and bad working conditions. 'Cause that's o.k. for Mr. Chang, but not for us.
I think the whole workweek vs. leisure time is very relative. Here's why: What do many of us do when we have leisure time? Work. For example:
Maintain an aquarium
Tend the garden
Sail a boat somewhere
Paint or do sculptures
Read a book
Post insightful paragraphs on CR
Ride horses
Go fishing
These are all things that in another context would be considered work. Only thing is, they're not getting paid for it.
Many people view their work as something enjoyable to do for 40 hours or more each week. Why not allow them to, if the company can afford the higher cost and the worker is willing?
The peeps I know are at Intel, Microserfs, etc
Like I said.
I did a gig at a major bank in Phoenix, they'd originally scheduled three months of work from me, three months of work from two team members. The work was trivial and I easily finished in six weeks (could have done three weeks but they were already uncomfortable). The manager told me flat-out that he needed me to sit around for six more weeks because he didn't want to revise the work schedule. "They'll just expect more out of us", he said.
I can repeat the story for several "large corporations".
Yalt, interesting theory (about a length of time at work being necessary to share in the collective spoils). It corresponds with my own observation. I can contribute all I need to in a few hours per day. But I experience peer pressure to stay longer. How can I justify earning more than everyone else in a social, cooperative, meritocratic organization unless I work at least the average hours?
Doc: Affirmative
CP: Em, er, I pointed out to them that the new (then) assistant to a white house chief of staff had been a Maxim model and reality show candidate
Nuts and bolts on Pres Obama's health care plan.
404 Page Not Found | The White House
I think you've misunderstood the distinction between "work" and "leisure". All the activities you've described here as "work" are self-directed. You decide what you're going to do, how you're going to do it, when you're going to do it, and all the benefits of your efforts accrue directly to you.
Maybe you're one of the very few who can honestly say that their paid work also fits that description. Most of us are not.
Off topic thread tune?
YouTube -
Weather Helm - sounds great. Mine reads "Children : Misc Related" x 30, post snark on CR, nap, repeat/reverse/interpolate.
C
But I experience peer pressure to stay longer
Exactly.
That's a lot of what's happening.
I believe it's called the Hawthorne effect.
Off to pool.
I can contribute all I need to in a few hours per day. But I experience peer pressure to stay longer.
And thus CR fills an important role!
I can repeat the story for several "large corporations". - b
I can see that working at a bank providing IT services to the rest of the corporation. I once worked in IT at CalFed, it was a bore, very slow. But I've never seen that at a hardware or software company. In that scene, it's a real pressure cooker, and getting worse because there is little hiring going on.
There were only a few that I remember admitting that they were calculatedrisking at work.
UB - l.m.f.a.o.! You got dealt some aces that day.
Have a
.
C
nytol
Night
night
Me, too.
Good night and Good Luck
YouTube - CHENGDU J-10: STEEL PREDATOR
Badger Boy wrote:
Now imagine if a Dem had did that to Bush. Congressman or not, they would be on a flight to an undisclosed location before the speech was over.
For all of his faults, Bush had a pair and got stuff done. The new guy not so much.
You might say you admire him because you feel he made the trains run on time.
My McDonald's Big Mac has arrived.
I have one once a week.
I can admit it here.
That took a great deal of courage.
Truly an officer and a gentleman.
How can I justify earning more than everyone else in a social, cooperative, meritocratic organization unless I work at least the average hours?
It's true not just at the individual level; entire business sectors need to justify their existence by creating a mythology that confirms their productive fulfillment of a social need.
On September 9, 2009, the FDIC Board of Directors approved a rule to finalize: (1) the deposit insurance coverage regulations to reflect the extension of the temporary increase in the standard maximum deposit insurance amount (SMDIA) to $250,000 through December 31, 2013, and (2) the 2008 interim rules regarding revocable trust accounts and mortgage servicing accounts.
FDIC: FIL-53-2009: Final Rule
Maybe you're one of the very few who can honestly say that their paid work also fits that description. Most of us are not.
It's probably not that far. Though the company issues and politics can get annoying.
My main point is that many people don't mind working more hours, so I don't see a reason whey they shouldn't be allowed to. Most people I know want to work more so they can make mortgage, pay kids' college, etc. Me, I'd prefer to work less and get less pay. I had an arrangement for a while that raises came only in the form of increased vacation time, but that didn't last long. At one point, my added vacation days were revoked and I was forced to take extra pay.
(The irony being that now, with work reductions/furloughs etc, I'm getting my wish.
But so are people who don't want it. 
)
"Can anyone tell me what I can expect if this bill passes? "
A $3800 fine.
CR says:
"Finally - I probably will not mention a personal position again for some time."
Catch 22.
If you disclose a position and then defend it, everyone can see it's pump and dump.
If you don't disclose a position, everyone assumes (with good reason) you're talking your book.
If you disclose a position and argue against it, everyone knows you're crazy.
"It's the best there is."
--The incomparable Joseph Heller, 1961
Notwithstanding, full disclosure gains the most respect among those aware of the Catch.
I've been thinking about the comment that testosterone and cholesterol are just a few atoms apart.
Sort of like water (h20) and sulfur. H2SO4 (sulfuric acid).
whoops
Dvořák's music always struck me as terribly pretentious but an awfully good way to help people broaden what they'd listen to.
Heck, nitrogen gas (N2, 70% of the atmosphere) and cyanide are only one atom apart. Yikes!
"How can I justify earning more than everyone else in a social, cooperative, meritocratic organization unless I work at least the average hours?"
Who said hours worked correlates with merit?
Einstein can think on the beach.
Phillip Glass music doesn't get any more interesting the longer it drones on.
I hear there's a forced financial shotgun wedding about to happen on Friday, the bribegroom being perhaps a banking concern in Boise, or Minot?
Does anyone know the history of why it's so taboo in the US to talk about how much you make at your position, or to find out about how much someone else makes? It appears to be something uniquely American, in my experience.
Dvořák's music always struck me as terribly pretentious
Dvorak is not nearly as pretentious as Liszt.
I prefer Baroque, and nothing moves me like Scarlatti.
" Bush had a pair and got stuff done."
Good stuff, bad stuff, stupid stuff, didn't matter.
Is having the government do less work through deregulation "getting stuff done"?
How'd that turn out for our finances?
terribly pretentious but an awfully good way to help people broaden what they'd listen to.
Dvořák helped me narrow what I'd listen to. His music reminds me of that machine on Star Trek that emptied the mind of the person placed in the chair.
One of the things you figure out when you talk to realtors:
Realtor: "Well, yeah, but the owner did $300k worth of upgrades."
Translation: "Yeah, yeah, I know, I know the house is overpriced by $300k at least."