I think I can hear that "Jaws" music....

I'll be so glad when they find a cure rate for loan defaults so I can take off this damn puce ribbon.

Having at least 10% of all mortgages either deliquent or in foreclosure is a bad thing, right?

I can't tell because the market seems to like insolvency and bankruptcy.

Nevermind. I forgot we own all of these bad loans. Just another expense account for the Federal Government. No wonder it is all green across the world.

Why be just delinquent....just don't pay at all and get on the band wagon...At least this is what my deadbeat Neighbor said who has not worked in almost a year.

Is a mortgage cured when the home is old and paid off? If so, it would also explain why the cure rate during the bubble was so much higher. Prime slime.

I don't consider someone a deadbeat if they don't pay on a non-recourse loan from a large bank. They have the option of taking the house and if they're too lazy to go through the motions, that's their problem.

When will the stories start coming out about predatory prime lending?

A deadbeat is a person who gets pummeled to death for not paying his usury loans back to the mob.

Also the worse it gets the more likely the government is to take these s of loans and make them into yummy bailout pork.

Deadbeat banks not paying back trillions.

Zombies get a bad name; they have no free will. Vampire, deadbeat, parasite: banker.

I'm now watching employment, incomes and prices. And trying to learn more about GD1.

There seems to be a very destructive pathology developing that hasn't been seen in previous post-war recessions.

It is very worrisome and this Fitch data just adds to the concern.

CR, I wish you'd comment on this.

Curiosity abounds: How do you define deadbeat?

In general: one who does not pay his bills....Oh he was in construction, trust me if you seen the free willy spending living high on the hog, you would not feel bad for this individual...so I'll hold on passing the napkin box around.

A lot of what we are finding out is that prime loans and prime buyers weren't either one of those.

Nothing of significance.

All of that represents nothing of significance.

Just accept that they make blips we call money.

There is no point in following the machinations.

It has become Oz, and the Fed is the wizard.

L. Frank Baum would be laughing his head off.

Someday this war's gonna end...

I'm now watching employment, incomes and prices. And trying to learn more about GD1.

There seems to be a very destructive pathology developing that hasn't been seen in previous post-war recessions.

I am also struck by Liz's comment that a bank is accepting a all-cash offer that is 18% less than debt-financed offer on an REO.

At the purchasing level, debt is being discounted.

Re: search of caaaash caaaash

Not ONLY caaaashh. The IT Zombies are looks for fresh projeeeeects. Need to spend vast quantities of money to justify size of department. NEED NEW PROJECTS!!!

Not ONLY caaaashh. The IT Zombies are looks for fresh projeeeeects. Need to spend fast quantities of money to justify size of department. NEED NEW PROJECTS!!!

Let's face it: IT is dead. Hell, kcoop put together this site, which is one of the best commenting sites I've seen, for how much money?

The pathology is the stench of hopeless futility that the boomers are experiencing firsthand. That was the lesson of GD1, one step forward, two steps back, until WW2 made full employment.

The bunch that smoked out at Woodstock is now burnt out. They were 20 at Woodstock, now they are 60- overleveraged, taking lipitor, facing crappy investment returns they thought would fund a golden retirement. That 50k they have saved means they are hoping ma and pa leave them the house, so they can sell it, or live in it and let their dreams go.

That collective surrender is the miasma of the boomers.

This rebound market falls 1000 points and they will turn tail and run for the hills.

They are walking away from houses that they can never reasonably pay off.

They are clinging to job to keep health insurance.

Someday this war's gonna end...

Does anyone know whats going on with FRE and FNM stocks today? they are skyrocketing!!

Bulldozer c. 2002 == progress.
Bulldozer c. 2012 == regress.

Stimulous package is like filling the air in punctured tire, fill the air, it will all go away shortly.

It is a matter of time when Government will be tired to fill the air in punctured tire, or run out of the air to supply.

When has the government been short of hot air?

Re: By the way, if anyone needs a cynical a*hole on their staff I am available.

HA! me 2 me 2 (jumps up and down)

Bulldozer c. 2002 == progress.
Bulldozer c. 2012 == regress.

Bulldozer c. 2014 == egress

So, as long as we can keep the con going, big corporate IT will exist.

Yes It will exist, but it will pay little.

trying again:

how do the Fed and bankers respond when the cure rate turns negative (5% or more) on prime, alt-a and subprime paper in default that is restructured?

Speaking of 1930...

"J. Barringer, National Cash Register GM, optimistic on foreign sales, and on general business outlook in Europe. “Germany, in my belief, is recovering from the world-wide depression, and France seems to be entirely over it.” Believes US depression has hit bottom and “we are slowly but surely on the upward trend.”"

newsfrom1930.blogspot.com

Hopefully Germany's recovery from the downturn goes better this time around.

Just saw on TV, Bernie Madoff has pancreatic cancer.

Yeah, right.

Well, all I can say is after he "dies", they better show his cold, dead body lying in state for like a month or two so we can watch him decay and know that it was actually him.

One day a criminal Billionaire next day pancreatic cancer oh the Karma.

"Stimulous package is like filling the air in punctured tire, fill the air, it will all go away shortly."

The stimulus is meaningless, we would have been as well off as burning the 750B for heat and light. The Fed's money printing, though, is real.

It is amusing that in light of data like this Fitch data, and rising unemployment, people are calling this a recovery, mainly due to a rising stock market. And some posters on this site make the same mistake.

We are nowhere close to a recovery. the markets are rising due to cheap money. It isn't any more complicated than that.

And I called it in March when I went long oil. Oil isn't $75 a barrel today because the global economy is recovering. It is $75 a barrel because there has been a flood of dollars into the markets.

As the Fitch article says, a recovery will show things like cure rates on delinquent mortgages improving, and new businesses being created, and unemployment rates coming down. Not stock market rises because of multiple expansions driven by free fiat currency.

I'd Lay odds that Bernie has the same doctor as Ken.

How does narrowing a definition mislead on an economics site?

Bulldozing is the broken window fallacy.

15,000 homeless veterans in L.A. Granted they're no match for the returning force from Iraq, who will all find jobs with rising wages. Maybe they could be employed foreclosing and bulldozing.

I think you have that Bernie Madoff story wrong. He enjoys eatings pancreases with eggs for breakfast and his sign is Cancer. I can see how that would confuse you, though.

Just riding on the rims, i'd guess that our government will be able to go another 10 miles, until that $pike $trip comes along...

Bulldozing is a broken window fallacy and housing prices always go up. Great mantras.

Lots of equity, and the bank isn't motivated for a cure?

I've heard from 2 different people who went thru the 1930s: The banks would take the land of those who had equity and milk those who did not.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Anyway, off to the salt mines. :dayol:

I think you have that Bernie Madoff story wrong. He enjoys eatings pancreases with eggs for breakfast and his sign is Cancer. I can see how that would confuse you, though.

My bad Elvis

While you are at the salt mines, do they let you use pepper or is that consorting with the enemy?

Right, and just because it glitters, doesn't mean it is gold.

House prices should go down over time, as with any good that decays.

"The real money will be in IT managment. Which, like all managements, is convinsing other people you add value (and ripping them off in the process)."

Believe it or not, there is some money to made in IT outsourcing. There are a lot of small companies that can no longer afford to keep IT people on staff. And you can do it in this country because customers need people who answer the phone, speak English, and can show up when hands-on help is required.

re: Are there death panels at Bernnies prison

No, he's got the GOOD socialist Medicare. Not the BAD socialize medicine. See the difference?

Maintenance and brushing prevent decay. There is a lot to be learned from dental school or watching the Bob Newhart showw.

Re: shaped resession

We have already covered this. The current theory is a recession shaped in a foreign alphabet.

The real 2x4 reality wake-up call will be when all the oil speculators discover that a huge portion of basal US energy consumption has become fungible. EIA has a table. What utility in this historic oil/natgas spread is going to do anything but run natgas only wherever possible? And with the lower industrial demand both nuke and hydro can reduce even that need. Interesting times.

Will ‘walking away’ from an investment property hurt you? - Mortgage Insider : The Orange County Register

'We are upside down on our Nevada property ($290,000 owed and market value now of $220,000 to $250,000). We have renters in the property, but the rental income leaves us with a $900 per month loss, which I cannot sustain any longer. I need advice as to how I can get out from under this financial burden without jeopardizing my Irvine home.'

$900 loss a month is nothing when you are holding property in CA. A lot of people were buying planning on turning the house into section 8 to guarantee their payments and used the absolute max that Section 8 would cover as their lease rent. I also heard, but haven't confirmed, that the last CA budget included a reduction in section 8 benefits. If true, your next round of foreclosures is being racked up as we speak.

"Being of the finest Chinese construction, I expect to get 12 months use, or use it a dozen times before it falls apart, whatever comes first."

Just hope it don't rain....the material is like rice paper and will flake away when rain soaked...best run back and grab a Tarp also.

Section 8 folks are now the stable bedrock of many communities, and a desired feature in a tennant. In many cases, they're the most financially stable people on the block.

If people were required to save and use all cash for purchasing houses, home prices wouldn't be high because most houses would be small like long huts or sod huts. Then, housing prices and overproduction won't be an issue either. Saying that overproduction of a non-perishable, high dollar item that 65% of families own isn't the problem and that the loans are the problem, is really goofy logic right now. The houses are still there. Bulldozing is good business. Especially if you own the bulldozer and the gov't is paying you to level the houses. Full disclosure: I do not own a bulldozer although I do own a house.

"Section 8 folks are now the stable bedrock of many communities, and a desired feature in a tennant. In many cases, they're the most financially stable people on the block."

"In the Section 8 Program, tenants pay about 30 percent of their income for rent, while the rest of the rent is paid with federal money."

I question the wisdom of having the US Gov as a tenant.

Section 8 (housing) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Grateful Dead, among others, never made the top 40. Didn't sell well, as they allowed their audience to record shows with whatever equipment they could carry. They had to keep "working" to make decent money.

Terrible over-production. Of course, with bulldozers, their audience might have found their music less valuable.

I have been trolling the Realtor pages as I would like to buy another home and rent my current one out as the mortgage is nearly nothing, but looking as the prices here still in Assachusetts it is just not worth the Plunge ( figuratively speaking. )

"Perhaps the next bubble can be in bulldozers."

Dollars for dozers?

What's the problem? The fact that they're nearly impossible to evict, that they often damage surrounding properties, or that they turn the house into a drive through drug mart?

I love my section 8 neighbors.

nincompoop, I believe in the long double L recession:
_
..._________

Right now we are at the first plateau.

Re: I question the wisdom of having the US Gov as a tenant.

The US Gov IS the only reality now. Without them, nothing would exist. It would just be a vast wasteland of (as someone above said) sod houses and miserable peasants.

I do not own a bulldozer although I do own a house.

Proof that you are a poor investor!

There are some poor neighborhoods a few miles from us. There are several groups who come by right before large item pickup day for trash, and take things which have a high recycling value. Kind of odd, but they are careful and don't make a mess.

Why complain Winston you go collect your rent or hope to collect and you grab a fat sack of Greenage on the way out the door.....

I don't see what the problem is!../snark/

I also heard, but haven't confirmed, that the last CA budget included a reduction in section 8 benefits.

I don't know about CA, but this article from a NH paper today:

Housing authorities hope feds will pump more money into Section 8 program

(Basel - The link text worked! Thanks!)

They had to keep "working" to make decent money.

The Grateful Dead had to keep working because none of the audience could remember the music.

The thing about section 8 folks is that the waiting lists are long enough that it isn't people who are down on their luck. It's people who have made the decision that they're going to be officially poor for several years and that they may as well suck as hard on the government teat as possible (not that there's anything wrong with sucking at the govenment teat). The landlord next to me won't take section 8 and his tennants are well behaved. The one behind me does and his are like a plague on the community. This has been my observation in general.

"Housing authorities hope feds will pump more money into Section 8 program"

So rather than let housing prices fall to affordable levels, the US Gov, will pay to keep us in them?

We're all section 8 now?

But a house isn't an investment and I always buy low except for SRS and perhaps TBT (ultrahorts blow). I think the prices in bulldozers will be way down over the next year, so I am waiting patiently. My neighbors aren't going to be very happy when I pull up in my new, used bulldozer and park it in my driveway.

About 88 percent of “option” ARMs, which offer borrowers the ability to increase principal owed instead of paying all the interest they owe, in 2007 bonds will default, they said. Super- senior notes at 48 cents offer 10 percent yields, they wrote.

The analysts didn’t detail their projections for prepayments, foreclosure severities and loan modifications, which influence yields along with the amount of defaults. They suggested that investors buying mortgage securities pair the purchases with “short” bets. Barclays has said that CDX, CMBX and ABX credit-default-swap indexes are tools for doing so.

Default-Prone Mortgage Bonds Beat Other Debt, Barclays Says - Bloomberg.com

The Grateful Dead were too stoned to know they were working.

According to this, yes

The Rentership Society

So, I'm guessing that something about the 3 and 6 month T-bill auction results at 1:00 gave Mr. Market a case of post-lunch indigestion. However, I'm apparently not clever enough to figure out what it was.

My neighbors aren't going to be very happy when I pull up in my new, used bulldozer and park it in my driveway.

Tell them it's either a new bulldozer or a new Section 8 neighbor.

Re: My neighbors aren't going to be very happy

It's all in the bumper sticker you put on it. If you live in a "red" neighborhood, I'd suggest an Merican flag. They'll know your new Dozer is just the latest bad-ass patrotic bling (suggestion, low profile treads; enhances the bad-assness into uber-bad-assness).

In a "blue" neighborhood, go with the Obama sticker.

Hello, Elmo. Trouble getting out of bed this morning?

"Its a chopper, baby"

Ben's money droppers? Or the shadow government coming for the in an effort to stave off the ?

"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead. "

That actually might be a possibility in California now that we have legal pot and all.

"Be careful what you disparage, it may come around to kick you in the butt. "

Just stating my experience with Section 8 tenants. Maybe the population is changing, but that's what I saw during the last housing recession, which was the last time I took S8 tenants.

"Colorado Springs P.D. thinks they can raise around $10k selling off miscreants guns, but couldn't they do much better selling off various confiscated drugs instead?"

Well, they sure make a pretty penny off of the asset seizures that go along with 'em.

What happens when one of those guns is used ot kill a baby?!

If a baby can pull a ten pound test trigger we are in serious trouble.

"Does anyone on here own equity in a bank, aside from all of those shares owned by the Federal Govt? Fannie or Freddie stock (yes they do still trade)? If so, please tell us why."

I actually own a little bit of preferreds of WFC, J series, not enough to make much of a difference. Normally I don't buy stocks, but I make an exception for preferreds, since they are more like bonds in my mind.

I bought them when they were trading at $17 and yielding in the high teens%, now they are near par ($25) yielding 8%. Bought them purely for the yield. I figured I was in the same position as the government, so the yield was pretty safe.

I would sell them if the yield got down to 5% or below, not enough yield at that point to compensate for the risk.

Can't imagine why anyone would buy BAC or C at these levels. Or even WFC common - beginning of the year it was trading at $25 and paying a dividend, now it is at $28 and no dividend? Crazy.

The government can pick and choose who they want to bust. It is a good way to suppress political dissent not to mention the funds and jobs it brings in. The war on terror was just an extension on it.

More evidence of recovery in CRE. snark, of course.

Las Olas Centre owner faces foreclosure - South Florida Business Journal:

Las Olas Centre owner faces foreclosure

Would a good solid correction restore confidence in the integrity of the market at this point - or is it too late for that ?

What was up with that big stock dump after lunch in NY?
Is again?

Oh, here comes

"When can we expect "cash for cannabis" to keep the prices unaffordable? "

Hey, wait! That's something that we could export!

Is there a reason "us" is no longer capitalized? Has our status to secondary power been confirmed by the media?

Yesterday I found this awesome WaMu Collector's edition T-shirt for $1.99 at Goodwill.
It's my consolation prize for not being hired in 2007.
.
http://www.realmeme.com/roller/images/TheCrash/wamuTShirt.jpg

If only I could come up with some development in an overseas market that required extracted fat from middle aged americans, I could make a forture and we could turn this thing around.

If I'm starting to channel Tyler Durden, we are in real trouble.

"I got $600 for my scrap cannabis"

I cried when ET died. But maybe it was because my girlfriend was making out with the guy next to me.

Re: all you need to convert the fat of middle aged americans to high explosives is a bit of lye, a barrel and a bit of nitric acid

Why not Soylent-Gas. We could run biodiesels with them.

Hapless Atlas, the weight of the world upon his shoulders and all he can do is shrug...

I had such bad gas the other day, that OPEC cold-called me asking if i'd like to be a client-nation..

I've always wondered if Atlas would prefer a flat world, or a square world? Does the shape of the world affect the ability to hold it easier? Which shape is most comfortable?

Turtle shaped.

August 24 half past, all is well with the world, I see.

Atlas would probably be most comfortable if the world was shaped like one of those yoke pillows you sleep on, in a 13 hour plane flight.

I saw the Grateful Dead in Madison Square Garden just before Jerry Garcia died, and Bruce Hornsby was the piano player.

Bruce was the only one of five GD piano players to outlive Jerry.

So, top that!

I cried when ET died.

I cried during "UP", when he had to release the house and let it fall back to earth.

I cried when Up with People went BK.

I threw up at BK.

"Many commit the same crime and fare differently: one man gets a gibbet, another a crown, as the reward of crime."

Juvenal

Many commit the same crime and fare differently

Goldman Gives Preferred Clients Stock Trading Tips Early, Defends Practice « naked capitalism

...like this thread.

So what's the story with today; selling off because of treasury auctions this week? Minor-correction? Or just a head-fake on the way to 1100?

To me it seems like as usual a little equities drop to get participation into the auction this week; then later (next week) they will be able to pump the market up in the 1060-70 range... seems all too obvious to me...

Important and maybe not even OT:

Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found

Loan Museum seeks cure-rater, pay commensurate with experience.

That's one sweet lookin ride.

RE cash for appliances

Do you have any links on that? I spent some time on Google and didn't hit much (other than furnaces & waterheaters). thnx

Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found

"Inconstant and shifty, for the most part, is the nature of bad men. In committing a crime, they have courage enough and to spare; they only begin to feel what is right and what wrong when it has been committed."

Juvenal

Good afternoon everyone...
SunTrust Chief Says Banks Face Losses, No Near-Term Recovery

Looks like someone didn't get the memo about the recession being over...

check out TBW's new front page. All current mortgages are being serviced by Cenlar. Ginnie Mae loan? You're "serviced" by BofA.

Wouldn't it be amazing if we had a massive gunfight in a mall one of these days. It would spread down the lenght of the mall, a few hundred REAL mericans blazing away at each other. It would be; glorious!

Only glorious is live TV with multiple cameras and instant replay. And of course, stereo sound.

Pay for View, baby!

Get out the popcorn, this is better than WWE

Re: they only begin to feel what is right and what wrong when it has been committed

But, if you "begin to feel what is right and what wrong" this means you have a defective brain. The TRUE nobility should consist of the smartest, amoral, shameless, and guiltless people of society. A worthy nobile will have no comprehension of "right and wrong". These concepts are the sign of a defective personality.

broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Mon, 8/24/2009 - 1:23 pm

System working to re-establish equilibrium.

Equilibrium, yes... at a much lower level!

And stop confusing "end of recession" with "recovery"!
Just because the recession is over doesn't mean a recovery has begun!

The faster the recession ends, the sooner the depression can begin.

Re: Zeus is ??

The oligarchy (aka nobility)?

About the only place in the world with as many guns in the hands of the public as the USA, is Africa.

Afghanistan?

The system is NEVER in equilibrium.

It appears to gyrate around a strange attractor in the 1.5% growth rate range. I expect that when the stimulus runs out we cycle down pretty hard.

Too...much...debt.

1930: A chicken in every pot.
2010: A gun in every hand.

Ah, good point - the demographic overlay of new entrants - and the fact that is ramping...I predict continuing credential inflation as the decision is made to extend into graduate school...

NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Mon, 8/24/2009 - 11:29 am

One word: train stimulus!

That's two words. a 100% word cost overrun. Typical of train advocates to underestimate true costs by a factor of 2.

Rob Dawg (homepage, profile) wrote on Mon, 8/24/2009 - 2:30 pm

1930: A chicken in every pot.
2010: A gun in every hand.
You say that like its a bad thing, and BTW, I believe it was a car in every garage, and a chicken in every pot from Eisenhower's years as President.

What color is puce?

Horrible green or horrible pink?

What color is puce?

I think it is italian for puke....

Re: true costs by a factor of 2

Come ON!. If it's only 2 we can't even begin to recover. I'm hoping for a graft-induced 10x multiplier.

ghostfaceinvestah--

Confirmation, apparently, in the WSJ that Fannie really did cut off TBW seven years ago, and a brief description of the events (for some reason I can't find the WSJ article he quotes on line--maybe it was in the printed version only?):

Mortgage Lender’s Have a Long and Checkered History

Taylor Bean ran afoul of Freddie’s rival, Fannie Mae, early in 2002. Fannie was long the main buyer of loans produced by Taylor Bean, a fast-growing mortgage lender owned and run by Lee Farkas, an Ocala entrepreneur. In early 2002, though, Fannie officials became concerned about some of Taylor Bean’s practices, according to people involved in the matter. One of the issues involved loans that Taylor Bean had been forced to repurchase from Fannie because the loans didn’t meet Fannie’s quality standards. Taylor Bean later sold back to Fannie new loans backed by the same homes without properly disclosing the nature of those loans, according to these people.

Fannie officials held a meeting with Mr. Farkas in April 2002 but were unsatisfied with his responses. Fannie, which declined to comment, then stopped doing business with Taylor Bean.

t is 1974- do your know where your inner Nixon is?

Someday this war's gonna end...

Ah... 1974. Wonderful year. End of my junior year & first half of my senior year... had a hot 'older' girlfriend who couldn't keep her pants on... and if I recall my father was starting a biz similar to what I do now after losing three jobs over the prior six years... rust belt, YE HAW!!!

Oh and during 1974 my parents missed something like five house payments over a seven month period... I guess that would qualify as 'delinquent'. But he got the biz up and running and made it all back plus penalties. He didn't walk away because renting then & there cost a lot more... we'd have been living in Grannies basement instead.

Bank didn't want the house either - too many others just as shitty and just as far underwater & equally or more delinquent. And since they held the loan just kept asking... "Any chance you can make a payment THIS month?"

Didn't hurt that the hot chick I was dating was the daughter of the president of the counties largest bank [though we had our loan with a friend of his].

Some how that stuff doesn't happen out here all that much in flyover anymore [the local bank holding the loan & 'knowing' the debtor]. Maybe still happens on Wall Street... think maybe Timmay knows a few folks over at GS? I think so. Wonder if his kids are hitting on any GSers - be a good idea if they are.

Mr. Farkas appears to have been Fleecing America. Farkas you.

No, dates from a 1928 GOP campaign and the 17th century--allegedly Henry IV was the first to say he wanted his subjects to have a chicken in his supper pot (or something along those lines & in 17th C French). "Chicken in Every Pot": Information from Answers.com

Henry seems to have said nothing about cars, or even oxen.

How can a cure rate be negative?

I know but 1928 v. 2008 didn't resonate. A little creative license here please. (I also didn't want any incorrect Hoover v. Obama comparisons.)

Weren't they last in action around 1400?

Aha. You are in fact ignorant of the Swiss Army.
Here's another factoid: Only five generals since that period as well. You would do well to learn under what circumstances a general is appointed and how his success is measured.

Haha, Elvis. Once none cure that's it.

How can a cure rate be negative?

Really bad doctor?

Ok, a toxic waste dump is worth a lot less than zero.

But if no loans cure, that's zero.

If the property is worth less than nothing, and the loan
doesn't cure, that's still zero cure rate.

H1N1 Swine Flu used as Bank Holiday excuse?

YouTube - Tennessee Banks preparing for Bank Holiday-Bank Runs have Started?!?!

I've been to Switzerland maybe a dozen times, and it's very disconcerting having somebody with a machine-gun sitting next to you on a train, but it's kinda like Mexico where you see snot-nosed barely adults with M-16's, @ roadblocks.

The doctor who kills a greater number of patients, than the total number of his
patients?

Comment on First-time Homebuyer Tax Credit

Doctors bad medical practice, ie the killing of his patience, leads to a ripple effect of spouse suicides, killing spreads by surviving children, etc....

When may patience was killed, I killed my patient.

Re: Paulie, you ignorant slut..."

Which is a PERFECT example of the PT's. People don't read economists to "learn". They read them to reinforce what their brains already has stored. Krugman is generally correct for the PT's 2 & 4's. He'll NEVER be correct for a 1 or 3.

This economist baiting is as ridiculous as arguing with the relative, who has NEVER agreed with you politically. The brain cannot be changed quickly, and never with a single article.

Okay regarding 'a chicken in every pot'... I had a buddy who was into agronomy & animal husbandry... ag school part of the uni I went to... the reason that was a salient message then and not so much now was that 100 years ago chicken was considered a 'delicacy' and actually more expensive per pound than many other meats including beef & pork. Why you ask? Because cattle were fed grass & hay [in those days] and pigs ate slop [human leftovers, garbage and whatever they could find on their own]... both cheap & readily available... but for most of the year chickens had to be 'fed' grains you grew. And yields were lower then and the effort per farmer greater. So chicken was 'expensive'. Sure in the summer they could forage off bugs in and around the farmstead but even then that needed to be supplemented with 'feed' - typically cracked corn.

And most folks farmed or were close to farming - two thirds of America was tied to the land one way or another.

So telling folks you're promising a 'chicken in every pot' is promising them prosperity in a metric they can understand. Sorta like promising 'ZIRP' today...

Now back to