appropriate thread music

You're only Pretty As You Feel
YouTube - Grace Slick - Pretty As You Feel

Mike in Long Island wss the only one to get the DIF but had Seven BFF?

Marine Bancshares, the holding company for Marine Bank, which is on the list, filed for BK a couple of weeks ago...

I am sorely disappointed.

Is Merican 'Bama??

Community First, Prineville, OR is the third tonite.

"DISCLAIMER: This is an unofficial list, the information is from public sources and while deemed to be reliable is not guaranteed. No warranty or representation, expressed or implied, is made as to the accuracy of the information contained herein and same is subject to errors and omissions. This is not intended as investment advice. Please contact CR with any errors."

CR, I'm taking this data to the bank and trading on it!

Thank you, as always, for the excellent information.

HA!
Three!

I knew we could fucking do it, thanks guys!

seriously CR,

I am enjoying the most excellent post.

I was wagering on a lot of little banks with few assets - an appetizer if you will for Corus.

Ok, this thread is un ed!!!

My mom used to bank at Eastern on the list. They really wanted her to
leave her money with them in Maryland.

Suntrust not on list?

Hey ll, stop hogging the comments
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just kidding

Anyone ever get loans from USAA?

heaven.

heaven would be unlimited bacon with no fat that stays with you.

Spider, for sure Spider,

Oh, oh, the all powerful CR can adjust the s.

Where did that go???

Dissolved to its constituent electrons?

FIRST !!!

AllenM - what's that about Setser? Been called in? Interesting.

C

CR why didnt you use the "in reply too?"

AllenM - what's that about Setser? Been called in? Interesting.

Where have you been? Busy? Couple of days ago he (Setser) wrapped up his blog for a new position. There was a post here on it, but it's buried in the back issues now and I'm too lazy to get there.

Having this many 'regulators' picking each other's noses just doesn't make any f'ing sense.

A reasonable conclusion: the only change the nation can/will accept is that imposed by banks, oligopolist corps and the Fed. Reserve.

Second reasonable conclusion: we really don't have any effective financial insitution regulation, so get used to being f''d by the bankers - the new overlords (same as the old overlords).

Just take out that 300 or 400 apiece and tuck it in the Sealey.

Confusion to the enemy. !

Makes you long for the Lincoln County 'Regulators', heh? Looking for the new "Billy the Kid".

Ok, ok, I see, thanks everyone. Too busy on other stuff. Gets like that in the Mary-Nam sometimes.

C

I smell popcorn.

Nitey-nite.

When the sheriff is a coward or owned by the bad guys, the vigilantees must swing into some swinging action.
................

Seems like we live in a company town, full of union-busting thugs.

Hmmm, how many of us had our banks fail?

I've had 2 BankU (yes I actually had money there) and WaMu.

Others??

He brought up the popcorn.

Supposedly, he either had the ubiquitous family concerns, or
he just didn't like the Senate. I liked the guy who ran against him, but
now I don't remember who that is. Charlie Crist will not appoint himself.

Lawmakers Rethink Town Halls

It is a shame when you can not have a civil discourse on the issues. Blue dogs did their job is guess.

Lawmakers Rethink Town Halls - WSJ.com
OP-ED COLUMNIST; The Town Hall Mob - NY Times

I wonder what the story is here? Ties to failed banks?

He's leaving the door open for Gov. Crist to become Sen. Crist.

Charlie Crist will not appoint himself.

Of course not. He'll appoint a Roland Burress to keep the seat warm.

Joanna you're looking at the wrong Films

You'll see just what's going on with the town hall disruptions. Wingnuts are calling Godwin's Law when anyone calls them out, but the comparison is dead on.

I don't know where you were in the late 60s & 70s but the tactic was also used [quite successfully] by the left. Small elite mobile group of VERY vocal activists monopolizing the public discourse... a la Abby Hoffman & Chicago Seven. By the late 70s even the media was sick of covering them... I remember stepping over a bunch of 'progressives' who did a sit down at my university [circa 1978]... they were ignored and eventually they left.

But that was 10-12 years after those kind of things were 'new'... when they were 'new' they were quite effective.

These guys [and gals] did their homework well - love'em or hate'em. I am surprised the Pelosi faction of Team O never saw it coming & have a plan in place to manage them. Staged messages are manageable.

Yep. but I had a mental glitch.

And that's a wrap for me. Enjoy your pizza and and/or everybody! (And can we have a pizza smiley, please?) Nytol...

Yep Nitey nite for real.

"Lawmakers Rethink Town Halls"

This should surprise no one. There were a lot of angry people out there before the health care ball even started rolling. TIAA/CREF cut their payouts in half on some pensions. Gasoline is back above $3.00. The politicians are talking about raising taxes in the worst recession since the GD. Unemployment is heading for the moon. I remember this very blog erupting in anger when Paulson was pushing TARP 1.0 through Congress last fall.

And now they're talking about turning the health care system into the post office.

No wonder lawmakers have started resigning. More of them should. Maybe after they face their constituents, more will.

And then we read Krugman scratching his head about why people are so angry. What planet does he live on, I wonder?

Thank you for doing that.

(In the late 60's, I was but a child...my parents were hardcore hippies though.)

The elite left of the late 60s didn't have a very democratic agenda - not the Hoffman's and the like. They were pretty hardcore socialist & not the nice Swedish type either. My sis was one back then - read a lot of Trotsky. Now not all the protesters then believed in that but the hard core 'organizers' sure did.

And the riots in Chicago 1968 were NOT spontaneous - they were organized. Small group stoked up a larger more casual crowd & Chicago's Finest rose for the bait - explosion all over national TV. Completely staged.

Similar to now - you have a pretty hard core elite organizing a larger & less disciplined but highly sympathetic mass following. It works pretty well if done quickly & by surprise. These guys are good.

OT: If anyone is interested, I just completed a set of money supply vs. gold charts.

What's new is a chart of (M2/capita) vs. gold price and (MZM/capita) vs. gold price.

Don't expect CR-level quality for the charts.

Townhalls and roadshows on contentious topics in the heat of summer when people are already angry and afraid does not sound like a classic recipe for civilized discourse.

C

I warned everyone months ago that the stability would be nice, but would not last forever.

Because their balance sheets and income statements are so tattered, companies of all sizes are making huge strategic changes. Hacking jobs, whacking salaries, combining departments and firing top people, reorgs, mergers, acquisitions, buyout, outsourcing, benefit cuts, 401k matching gone, etc.

For a lot of former fatcat execs and professional jobs, there is no tomorrow.

If you want to keep working, take a huge paycut and get in line.

Jobs right out of college? Burger king or unpaid internship, if you're lucky.

Why would anybody think these changes are cyclical?

I'm seeing it in my neighborhood, on my street, among friends. what's more, the permanency of the change is sinking in, even among some of the formerly optimistic.

Yeah, there's a gap between Wall Street and Main Street.

But there's a gap that's getting more visible between MSM and mainstream people.

I disagree - Occam's Razor
.....

My practical side wars with my side on that one.

But does/did Obama really think he was going to make everything all better?

Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, Evolution, Mastication, Flagellation, Regulations.
Integrations, Meditations, United Nations, Congratulations
All we are saying is give chance a piece

nobody ever died from
.............

My partner works for a police department, so that is not on my menu....

Yeah, music's stopped and no chairs left, I'm out.

nytol

C

Didn't Tom Wolfe call that "mau mauing the flak catchers"?

Oh, and score one for OR...trailblazin' bank failures...in OR "we love dreamers".

My practical side wars with my Tinfoil Hat side on that one.

But does/did Obama really think he was going to make everything all better?

I fight my inner tin too but after watching this circus I've come to believe Team O thought they could just roll over the GOP... and mainstream GOPers would have let them do it too. But there is an angry vocal edge out on the right wing who won't go away quietly... just like used to be the case with the left in the 60s & 70s. In both cases the extremes weren't [or aren't] much good at 'governing' but damned good at stopping governing. You see that in action now.

Dems want to pass the damned things then stop the discussion and take it to the floor - pass the bill - then face the public with a fait acompli. Otherwise drop it and move on.

Dryfly,your remarks about the Trotskyite elites is on the money.I met Bill and emily white playing volleyball at a friends apartment in oakland ( A full sized court,he had a 40' waterfall as well,and no not a mansion) They ended up in prison,but many of the others ended up as judges or otherwise as parts of the power structure here in California.They came from money,and when they were done playing they went back to the privilege they were born to ,taking the tactics they learned with them.Scum.

Rich,most americans think a stable government and society are normal,they are not.

They came from money,and when they were done playing they went back to the privilege they were born to
......

I read somewhere that it took affluence to enable that generation in "protesting". If they were truly poor & downtrodden, they couldn't have started these movements, or else the movements would have been all or nothing.

I'm surprised that this gang that loves hard data didn't tote up the assets of all the banks on this list. It comes to $275B.

With all the chatter about the amount in, or potentially in, the DIF this is an important number. Lately FDIC has been claiming that losses to the DIF are about 40% of the institution's assets. If every one of these banks were seized the DIF cost would be slightly over $100B, and that seems pretty much an upper bound.

It's a lot of money, but (unfortunately) not so much compared to what has already gone out.

I'm storing up temporary wealth tonight....prepping 50lbs of green beans for canning. Harvest season is mad season, but I love seeing that full pantry.

You are all welcome to your own planet of pointless partisan politics.

patientrenter, I beg to differ. There is nothing pointless about partisan politics.

Now, it may well be pointless for one on one side to try to convince one on the other side that he or she is on the 'wrong' side, but to avoid engaging at all is the worst choice one could make.

People are not amenable to Socratic discussion about topics like health care.

"The problem is topics like health care are not ammenable to Socratic discussion."

I think they are, RD, but not with people who are loyal to a political clan or tribe. Unfortunately, a lot of people are in that category. Not everyone is, though.

"That is what civil disobedience is all about - the left played that tune perfectly in the 60s and 70s... and now all of a sudden forgot that it can also be played against them. I'm really surprised by the 'surprise'..."

The surprise is feigned.

The problem is topics like health care are not ammenable to Socratic discussion."

I think they are, RD

Nah, Socratic discussion isn't very good for democracies. Too much idealism and searching for perfection, only one 'right' choice' and compromise doesn't seem to be in there. Of course, I'm only on chapter two of 'The Trial of Socrates".

(if you've read it, don't tell me,...don't spoil the ending.)

Peggy Noonan's take is interesting

" ‘You Are Terrifying Us': Voters send a message to Washington, and get an ugly response."

Wouldn't doctors lose the most from a plan that cuts medical costs? I keep seeing all this criticism of insurance companies, as if most of the dollars going to insurers didn't get passed along to doctors and hospitals and drug companies and clinics etc. Most complaints about insurance companies are actually complaints about limitations being put on the amount of expensive health care that a person can have. I'd like unlimited amounts of free Barolo wine, Kobe steaks, penthouse apartments overlooking Central Park, and Bugatti cars. The fact that I must limit my consumption of these things because providing them consumes vast amounts of other people's effort is ignored when it comes to health care paid through insurance.

Okay, I've got a suggestion for health care reform. Amend the Americans with Disabilities Act.:

"Forty percent of premature deaths in the United States are from smoking, inactivity, and obesity. That leads to chronic disease, and that’s 70 percent of the cost. . . . [W]e have not hired doctors just because they tested positive for nicotine. But we can’t do that with obesity. In fact, obesity is protected by the Americans With Disabilities Act."

Cleveland Clinic CEO Speaks on Health-Care Reform: 'We May End Up Making the Problem Substantially Worse' - The Human Condition Blog - Newsweek.com

The problem is topics like health care are not ammenable to Socratic discussion.

100% agree.
The correct response to the town hall stupidity is: Why do you hate the uninsured so much? What have they ever done to you?

Why do you hate the uninsured so much?

Oh, so the answer to stupidity is more stupidity? Ah, I see, fight fire with fire.

I'm one of those others and I really don't like seeing 'my kind' slowly pushed back into non-citizen status. Healthcare is just a stalking horse for other agendas.

Exactly. The thing is they are doing something about it [taking over town hall meetings] and the 'others' are doing what - exactly?

BTW - I don't agree with the 'obstructionists' agenda but admire their planning & execution. At least so far. I bet Team O & Pelosi do too - if you are an 'organizer' you'd have to admire that kind of execution.

I would instead say: There is a fraction of politics which is dominated by sound bites. And that fraction should be neutralized with opposing sound bites.

There is certainly a place for thoughtful discourse. The town hall meetings have so far disqualified themselves as being part of that.

Ot- C4Clunkers update....It looks like our leaders blew it again....Credit applications for vehicles peaked on Monday....They pushed sales forward faster even for that program by scaring customers into showroom bcse they didn't know if the senate would vote more money for program.

The credit quality is also regressing to subprime borrowers...So what are they going to do if 2 billion doesn't get used?

I have a feeling dap for cars is coming....wait and see....but that's they only way subprime will be bought...they have to lower LTV on vehicles coming right off the lot....

cash for clunkers is a joke....And my business depends on it...

Dryfly,your remarks about the Trotskyite elites is on the money.I met Bill and emily white playing volleyball at a friends apartment in oakland ( A full sized court,he had a 40' waterfall as well,and no not a mansion) They ended up in prison,but many of the others ended up as judges or otherwise as parts of the power structure here in California.They came from money,and when they were done playing they went back to the privilege they were born to ,taking the tactics they learned with them.Scum.

Tom - I look at the Rand Roids the same way... extreme Ayn Rand Apostles who talked the talk of doing something 'Galt Gulch-like'... then became useless eaters & disappeared into academia, gov't or a huge corporation.

The flaws you described are just as common on the right as the left.

Great work CR! Amazing how much is in public records, but not entirely understood by those who are paid to review and understand public records.

I wouldn't claim to know the best way to handle health care, only that the current system is not working very well, and is not sustainable. But I do know the Peggy Noonan is a vacuous ideologue, and best ignored. And for all the fools who've bought into the "conservative" vs "liberal" idiocy and immediately assume this is partisan, I feel the same way about Barney Frank.

Re: "conservative" vs "liberal" idiocy

It's not "conservative" vs "liberal" idiocy it's mean to "outsiders" vs NOT mean, inclusive OF, "outsiders". Nothing more or less. The meanies still can't get over THOSE PEOPLE being declared human 40 years ago.

Dryfly,some of those Trotskyites were big supporters of Bush and the "Patriot" act.

And the beards have all grown under overnight.

. . .

Meet the new boss . . . same as the old boss.

(youtube clip available)

Re: Personally I think both parties are full of crap and simply play the game for their own benefit.

Which is what happens when there's no "competition between parties. The extremist run them. The rest of the population can only pick between the lesser-of-two-evils.

Good news per the list, only 28 more BFF's left for Georgia!

Re: benefit only rich white people

BUT, supported by the 40% (consistantly) of the peasantry. Which is probably what percentage of ALL peasants are dumbass fascist in all societies. The US hasn't had enough wars to reduce their population for awhile.

No, dryfly, I'm stuck with what I say. Good to see you here as always.

I think the republicans seems to have made a fair run at getting the dumbasses to help keep them in bank. You can quibble over rich and white, but there seems to be a commonality among those benefitting from the current rabble-rousing strategy.

Re: but I'm not optimistic that I will.

It can't. Not without massive social changes, which generally benefit the natural political organization, which is fascism (worship of royality / "the rich"). Fascism is the only system that understands that there are HUGE numbers of dumbasses and correctly adjusts for this (usually by manipulating them into hating somebody, and killing the dumbasses in wars).

Scum-bag John Edwards types will still earn 15 million a year under any new health plan.

Look, the damage done by the "true believers" the last 8 years is going to take decades to repair. But if you believe that the Rapture will take care of you and yours...? And if you are having a hard time with an "African" being your President, or the "Government" taking over your Medicare, well then, please, rapture away!

Re: rabble-rousing strategy

When there are only two parties applied-socialist (guilt-ridden mommy) and religious/corporate-fascist (kick-ass daddy), BOTH authority-worshipping parties, ONLY rabble-rousers care. If you had two OTHER parties on the mean/nice scale, but authority-doubters, THEN you'd have somebody pointing at the Republicans and Democrats and demostrating how idiotic they are.

Way OT, but I saw the Dead at Alpine Valley, Wisconsin this day in 1982.

First time I had a chance to do that, but it seems to apply.

Time to go to sleep--thanks for the conversation about health care--wish there was a non biased site that allowed give and take--heck--I wish there was a non biased news outlet. We're all tools of Goldman--used to be tools of the AFL/CIO also, but Reagan fixed that. Politicians need to raise too much money nowadays--and are thus forced into whoredom. Our democracy had a good run--if you were White and well off--but is splintering today because of economics and population changes. I have money under my mattress--helps me sleep better. zzzzz

Well, while everyone is wishing we could all do a big group hug, I think I'll share this.
My apologies if people have all ready seen it.

Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.

Rule 1 : Life is not fair - get used to it!!

Rule 2 : The world doesn't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6 : If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault!! So don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7 : Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8 : Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9 : Life is not divided into semesters - you don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10 : Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11 : Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

Or maybe everyone who works hard, sacrifices and gets ahead is just another elitist rich white guy.

If I had my druthers, I'd take the AFL/CIO over GS any day! Part of our problem today is the destruction of the Union base the last 30 years.

That list is not Gates, and does not sound like him at all.
snopes.com: Some Rules Kids Won't Learn in School

I think kids need to have confidence built on an escalating experience of actually doing things, not some daycare curriculum and play dates.

Help mommy & daddy fix things and cook things. But that would require parents with skills themselves, and I know too many parents whose biggest skills are tv watching and fast food drive thrus.

Re; I'd take the AFL/CIO over GS any day

However, ask the typical Merican peasant WHO he sides with, either:
1) those GODDAMN LAZY UAW UNION BASTARDS THAT ARE NEVER GOING TO PAY BACK ALL THE GOVERNMENT MONEY
-or-
2) the bankers WHO WENT BROKE BECAUSE THOSE GODDAMN WELFARE QUEENS DIDN'T PAY THEIR MORTGAGES. and WHAT THE HELL CAN YOU EXPECT FROM THOSE GODDAMN PEOPLE! and the banks are paying those loans back YOU THINK THE LIBERAL-MEDIA TELL YOU THAT. Goddamn unions! Ruined this great nation.

Pick one.

Unions represent less than 15% of the American workforce today, but they still get 90% of the blame.

Heyas Duke,

I've been more focused on the story in Argentina with some rapid escalation in fatalities:
Swine flu toll up sharply in Latin America
(AFP) – 2 days ago
BUENOS AIRES — Argentina reported a sharp spike in deaths from swine flu as cases jumped across Latin America and more countries worldwide coped with their first fatalities.
AFP: Swine flu toll up sharply in Latin America
Need to dig some, might be getting legs in Southeast Asia, plus a generally higher baseline awareness - many (most?) of the new flus get started there - most of the scenario planning for the next pandemic focused on something based on H5N1 starting in the region and slowly working its way out...

Slogans for the left:

All white people are racist

All rich people got that way through luck

We should take more things from rich people and give them to poor people

People who disagree with us are wrong

Slogans for the right:

All poor people deserve to be poor

You can't trust people who don't look like me

We should take less things from rich people and give less to the poor

People who disagree with us are wrong

Did I get 90% of the content of certain posters here? Maybe 85%... no, maybe 95%... Hell, I think this is good enough.

Thanks, JP.

Charles J. Sykes, got it.

rob DAWG
The problem is topics like health care are not ammenable to Socratic discussion."
odd... that's what one of the Gore honchos said about global warming and the defect in
dealing with such problems in a democracy - I think that was right after re-reading
Lenin's What is to be Done?

DickleyLee
I having a hard time having a former classmate being president ( damn, I knew I should have loaned him my notes!)

Honolulu or Boston?

No one asked, but it's PCST.PK.

patientrenter, I understand your frustration with us.

Until the other side lays down its arms, what are we to do?

I'm proud to be a Vietnam veteran. Does that mean I ducked every time? What do you think?

Pray tell, Duke, pray tell.

And if you say "bless his heart" at any point in the response, I know we're phucked.

I'm friggn F'ing telling yah, property taxes are gonna skyrocket.....

That last glass of Penfold's is singing a siren song about the pillow...nytol and best of luck with the Socratic discourse!

energyecon, what I've heard is that Phuket is safe . . . on multiple levels.

But we all have to make our own choices about some things. I made a similar one.

Penfold's is also a good choice. I meant the other one.

Duke, it wasn't Gates. See the comment to which I reply.

DickyLee
that was at Columbia, he was undergrad I was grad and he was in a class called Dynamics of Soviet Politics for about 6 weeks and them I never saw him again, neither did any of my fellow classmates - there is a reason he did not release his Columbia transcripts (I suspect he got gentleman C's)

K_K, re the undercurrent,

Do you think we're heading towards class warfare?

I've wondered about that for a good part of this past decade.

K_K, re 'locked' comments.

That really is a strange feature. I suppose kcoop had a reason for setting it up that way.

I can understand it validating replies in the sense that the original commenter can't change the point to which the reply is being made, but I usually try to quote the section of the comment to which I'm replying.

Anyway, it is what it is.

YLSP:

Once again, I agree, there was no coherent plan for Iraq. The same cannot be said of Afghanistan. As for the guys grinding themselves down, that is what we have a military for. sad but true.

I should be asleep. However, I saw the GI Joe movie tonight with the wife, out of deference for my happy memories watching the cartoon as a kid. Big mistake. I don't think they could have made a worse movie if they tried. I am so angry I cannot sleep.

. . . we still refuse to have a dialogue on what "health care" actually means.

We haven't even made any progress so far as I can determine.

Nuke,

OT, but wanted your opinion on something. Could be a stupid question, but I'm not above asking those.

If we wanted to jump-start a nuclear power grid for the country, how plausible would it be to take parts of the nuclear navy and "plug it in"?

"Do you think we're heading towards class warfare?"

Well the cold war will certainly heat up a little, it has always been there.

I don't see it blowing up unless the mob takes over from the elite organizers and goes to the insane violent levels. We are all incredibly dependent on each other, and its kind of hard to bite the hand that feeds you.
I was always told the quickest way to destroy a country, group, class, person is to give them aid. They become dependent on that.
Got to run and actually get some work done, nite all.

Very well said, patientrenter.

No one should be refused health care "merely" because of cost. Efforts to prolong one person's life by a few miserable months are always right, even if they consume the equivalent of another person's entire economic lifetime contribution to society.

patientrenter, but therein lies the rub. If we had universal health care, wouldn't preserving all of our lives for that last few miserable months suck someone's else entire economic lifetime's contribution to society.

Meaning, nothing at all would be left of society. Literally.

I'm not being facetious.

It's time for schools, cops, fire-people, and all those people that make up city, state and county cash burn to stop friggn whining and shut the hell up -- but no, all these people that are linked to good times in the The Ownership Society/ Housing Bubble want friggn more of the same pie in the sky bullshit that they got hooked on the last 8 years -- so how bout just backing off and taking pay cuts and getting your bennies cut.... huh, what about that, huh, huh, whadyah think about that, huh, huh, ..... maybe the teachers in Prineville need a raise, so they can teach fewer kids, whose parents will be moving away ...... and ahhhh, maybe the cops that are zooming around in new cars, will be just burning up gas, as they demand more money, and maybe some hot nurse will need a raise ... it's getting late and I swear to God, The Nursing Bubble and property tax thing is killing me...

Maybe we just increase the mill rate everywhere and pretend that revenue sources are increasing, because wal-mart is building new stores every other week and that the bubble is still expanding like the air in some porno stars condom.... It's over baby, ok, taxes are going higher and your wages and saving are toast...

Is this too bitter? Goodnight!

TJ,
There is work in the industry occurring around small nukes (~25 MW's) that i believe leverages parts of the design of the Navy nukes. I think WA and ID is where most of this working is centered.

"If we had universal health care, wouldn't preserving all of our lives for that last few miserable months suck someone's else entire economic lifetime's contribution to society."

In the current public debate, it is considered unacceptable to even discuss the right balance between spending and life. We must pretend that a treatment has zero life extension value before we refuse it. But someone has to refuse the additional spending, or else health spending would exceed even its current 17% of all our spending. Today, insurance companies are the ones who are in that No job, which is the reason we hate them so much. We want unlimited spending (as long as someone else pays).

Would that change with universal health care? It depends on how it's implemented. If it allows a well-run govt bureaucracy to rationally and efficiently limit spending, then it could lower costs. If it simply channels more money (from tax revenues) into health care, then it will increase spending.

We are outclassed, outmaneuvered, and in uncharted waters. The ability to frame any argument and influence outcomes with the wide assortment of leverage available via K street and MSM has left us with a system of special interests all digging as deep as possible into the taxpayer wallet. The good news/bad news is the wallet is empty and the credit cards have been maxed. Look for consolidation across the board in every sector because the economy has evolved into the group of companies that can count on the government for revenue streams and those that will go bankrupt or be bought up.

The pressing danger is how far we have slipped from having a unifying basis as recognizing our country as ours and each other as fellow Americans. The signs are very troubling in this arena.

Keep focusing on the following while the matters of the greatest import are decided beyond the public realm without your consent.

-Gay Marriage
-Illegal Immigration
-Guns
-Health Care Reform
-Abortion

FIRE bailouts, wars, environmental degradation, green energy are all matters that have real impact/importance for our future yet are quietly shuffled aside out of the lime light while the status quo is maintained no matter the cost. Let's keep up the health care debate, by all means.

"What are these efficient bureaucracies you speak of? "

I don't know too many off the top of my head in the USA. But the NHS in the UK, and the French public health service, spend far, far less than we do, and yet their populations have life expectancies that equal or exceed ours, so they seem to get the same or better results for much less.

"If we had a few less million people, then we might be able to take better care of everyone. "

For some reason, a majority of educated people across the globe agree that we consume 80% too much oil, etc, but shy away from recognizing our global population is 80% too big. It's a taboo subject, but it's the heart of the sustainability issue. A world with 500 million environmentally conscious people would be far more sustainable.

Here's what it comes down to: No One wants to die for health care reform.

Here's an example from my world;
I pay about $12,000/year for health insurance, for myself alone. My partner pays separately. Some of that is riders for stuff that the normal insurance doesn't cover, such as the cancer rider, the hospitalization rider (so I don't end up in a ward), etc. I have a $10,000 deductible. My biggest fear is that the insurance company tries to dump me if I really do get sick.

On offer from the government:
1. I may not get dumped if I get sick, but they may decide that I'm not worth saving.
2. If I get an expensive illness and I'm old, I'm definitely not worth saving.
3. I'm fucked if I get sick and there's not an approved treatment that has been judged affordable.

Now, how is this different from what I currently have? And how much more do I have to pay for the privilege of getting fucked by the government as opposed to getting fucked by the private sector?

What do we know?
1. The government has a well-documented record of screwing up everything they touch.
2. The government has no obligation that they are responsible for, they can change their mind (and policy) on any whim, because they are not responsible for contracts and can make laws as they please. Thus the government is actually less accountable than a private entity.
3. The government is bankrupt and cannot deliver on promises that they have already made, and is certain to default.

Now, why would I want government health care? Because I like pain or want to die sooner?

I don't think so. And that's why Obama's program is in trouble.

edit out

patientrenter, I completely agree with your statement that "it is considered unacceptable to even discuss the right balance between spending and life . . . "

I, for one, certainly don't blame the insurance companies for being in the position of saying "No," if in fact that is what they are doing. I do blame the insurance companies for taking such a large cut of health care expenditures.

Since you have me pegged politically, I will state the obvious: I support abortion. I also support the death penalty. I certainly support taking lives in combat. It follows logically that I must support the end of life at some point. As indicated by my earlier exchange with pavel today, I do not carry any religious baggage of any kind. Hence, the mere fact of existence, i.e. "life," is not something I find to be sacred.

But I understand that many others feel differently and that the issue is not simply one involving religion. Many people are fearful of dying and don't want the government (with all its wisdom) involved in making decisions that might affect such things. Yet, if the insurance companies are the ones saying "No" today, someone is already making those decisions.

As with you and Basel, I would like to see a rational discussion, not all the shouting going on recently. The bottom line is that something has to be done and we can't keep ignoring the problem as we have been doing.

Nor is my life any different or more important than anyone else's. The first round out of my favorite sidearm is a Glaser safety slug. I won't become a burden on my family and that's one you can take to the bank. The funny thing is that I won't become a burden on the government either.

I've had an E-ticket ride if it ends tonight. My preference, though, would be waking up tomorrow.

sportsfan
I think that's an unintended feature for security... you can edit but only for say a few minutes other wise you get locked out...

Just got back from watching G.I. Joe. Darn good guy flick. Great special effects, story, pacing, villains and the "romance" was painless.

Only 4 banks in NV? I'm frankly shocked. And CBON has been on the edge for a while now.

sm_landlord:
I think you point out a very good reason why the plan will ultimately fail, not because of what the plan contains but the fact that nobody knows what it contains. As far as I know, and if you have better info please point me to it, the government would be creating a sort of national insurance plan that could effectively compete with private insurance companies but both would exist. So, my Obama plan looks much different than your Obama plan but I don't know which of us is actually representing Obama's plan accurately.

I'm not going to argue against the idea that we have too many people on this ball but I also won't deny the fact that I'm part of the small minority population that uses most the world's resources.

...........................

Too true. There are too many of us total to all have the kind of life we've become used to in this country. Something has to give.

sm_landlord,

It's not at all clear to me that anything in the current health care plan would affect your relationship with your health insurer or doctor.

As I said before, I understand that this can be an extremely emotional issue with a lot of people for different reasons.

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about the pending bill, but I can say with certainty that I do not believe some of the bizarre claims being made by opponents of any change.

My own health insurance premiums likewise are extremely expensive, but so far they are being paid. That may not always be the case.

But that's why the first round out is a Glaser safety slug. At some point the ride ends.

Fortunately for those who don't share my politics, when that day arrives, I won't be posting any further comments on CR.

duke:

Yes, and I do recall Gibbon's comments about christianity. Something about how people assumed that the cannons came from on high via divine revelation, but in reality the faith evolved (messily) over a long period of time. I will have to reread those sections extra carefully (I'm not there yet).

jlr:

I am surprised Saratoga Springs used to be so run down. They really have cleaned up the place. The Price Chopper is still there, though. I am curious to see what this recession does. A lot of the trendy boutiques are struggling, and much of the development seems stupid (800K is a lot for a condo convenient to the cosmopolitan cities of Troy and Schenectady).

Balckhalo:

You're kidding. I just came back from GI Joe. almost clawed my eyes out. Another cherished childhood memory whored out life some trailer trash meth head.

I do blame the insurance companies for taking such a large cut of health care expenditures.

Compared to what? A link I provided to a post on Economist's View stated that large insurance providers have no greater administrative costs than Medicare.

Nor is my life any different or more important than anyone else's. The first round out of my favorite sidearm is a Glaser safety slug.

My first round is also a Glaser, but that's simply to keep the rounds from hurting someone other than the intended target. OTOH, that intended target forfeited his/her life's importance the moment he/she prompted me to shoot and (per multiple cop friend's advice) kill him/her.

Otherwise, nice rant.

sportsfan,
The current House bill has the clause where you can't switch to a new provider. Its obvious this clause is going to be thrown out as part of negotiations over the bill, if they ever get to that stage.

Honestly the future of medicine is medical tourism. I'm not an international person; but heard from someone that you can go to Thailand and get a $300-400 full body MRI scan plus rigorous physical at a state-of-the-art facility. Heck, if American insurance was smart they would be paying for this right now. It seems like an elephant in the room. Especially since these facilities have a huge incentive to make a great name for themselves. If you really want to talk about "free market solutions".

Duke, not familiar with KR in the late 1970s or early 1980s. I'm confident that whatever the Carters may have done was humanitarian in nature.

The early to mid 1970s were of course a tragedy of immense proportions. I literally cried.

BTW, the closest we got was Moc Hoa, one of the staging areas for the invasion. When Nixon came on in April and said we didn't know we had crossed the border and all that other BS, I was permanently radicalized. Then a couple weeks later they shot some kids at Kent State and the rest, as they say, is history.

I don't want to see $1 million spent to let me live for 1 year instead of 3 months.
My dad is eligible for Medicare this year. If he could get a discounted NPV on his future Medicare costs, he'd do it in a second, not because he'd ever spend the money, but instead to give it to his grandchildren. And, I would have no problems if others spent it on hookers and blow; some people prefer to go out with a bang (or several) than a whimper.

What's so special about a Glaser safety slug (i'm gun illiterate)? My solution to really inexpensive end-of-life care is to move to Oregon for its physician-assisted suicide. IMO, there's kind of a dignity in choosing the time and manner of my death with my loved ones.

YLSP: my health care provider pays for medical tourism. NO MALPRACTICE overseas, so you better stock up on the life insurance while you're at it,

deleted by Duke

Basel Too:

May I ask who your health care provider is that pays for medical tourism, and no I won't be forwarding the info to the WH

sm landlord,
our government on both sides is so corrupt and paid for, I don't think they are capable of doing anything beneficial for the American public.
1017 pages of legalese that lobbyists wrote, and I am supposed to believe this is good for me?

YLSP, I've also heard that Thailand rivals India as a place to get world class medical treatment at what we would consider bargain prices.

Throw in that weekend in Phuket and what a deal it would be.

I'm not following the House bill so I'm not part of the 'legislative debate.' I care about what happens, but not so much as to try to be educated about and to discuss all the nuances.

They will do what they do and we will have to live with it.

Just doesn't leave a good image for those you leave behind, plus kills the life insurance claim.

TJ, yeah, I know. The life insurance thing only applies in the first two years of the policy, but the other thing lasts a lifetime and I do have a couple of kids.

Seems easier than a phony car accident, though.

YLSP
I have used the hospitals in Bangkok numerous times and they are excellent. A few years ago after a check up
in NYC it was recommended that I get a colonscopy. I was uninsured. The cost was 2,500. I waited and got mine done
in BKK for 500 dollars. The doctors were great. although they scrwed up fiming the procedure so I asked them to
do it again and they did... having back to back colonoscopys wasn't a great idea, after all...

There were a boatload of people more upset and marching in the streets over immigration than against health care.

That's because most of them were illegal immigrants whose very lives turn on that legislation. They are fighting to get something they don't have.

OTOH, most people either have health care or the option. See what they do if they actually lose something they used to have.

I think the legislative process is so messed up. There are a small number of changes you need to make:
1) Allow people with pre-existing conditions to get coverage somewhere, anywhere. If they are not covered by any insurance than how about medicare or some other program?
2) Reform medical malpractice laws. Comment upstream re: life insurance, how about offering medical-catastrophe insurance? I don't know if other countries allow the amount of lawsuits that we do. Once again the American people don't want to pay for the doctors insurance, but they also want the ability to sue for $$$.
3) Ideally under my plan, illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered. I'd negotiate amnesty for health care and the strong employer sanctions that Americans want. Make the fines for illegal employing greater than the fines people have been getting for copyright infringement of downloading movies. ie. if you hire 1 it is statutory $500k minimum and a jury will decide how much more there is. Allow those affected to testify in front of juries and you'll have zero companies hiring illegals. Of course it wouldn't be the full 12 million amnesty; maybe a 6 million amnesty. Employers would have to sponser those who want amnesty, after all its an employer amnesty too.
4) To solve the alleged labor problem: anyone eligible for unemployment will be offered former illegal immigrant jobs. If they refuse that job than no more unemployment.

I recognize 3 and 4 are fantasyland so lets drop #4. For 3, of course we should give illegals some coverage, after all they are bankrupting our hospitals so we need to funnel them into places where they get less expensive care. However at least make sure illegals go under some type of degraded plan, that is less than what tax-paying Americans get.

Notice how I compromise; typical legislative process compromises on 1 subject, but doing an omni-subject-compromise my plan will solve a bunch of stuff by putting a lot more on the table; furthermore we focus on the really important parts of this instead of the extraneous crap that gets all the attention.

Basel, can't say whether SC is on the vanguard of anything, but Charleston does have its Four Corners of the Law and that should be of some import to you:

Four Corners of the Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was to me at an earlier stage of this lifetime.

Poor CR. He delivered his something special and most of the comments have been OT.

But, then, I guess it's like that on many of his posts.

It's hard to be loved when you're a blogger. You're stuck with what the public throws back at you.

Goodnight, folks.

patient renter
Duke of Con Dao at 1:01am: "All rich people got that way through luck"
....
You are putting words in my mouth. Not nice. I never said that at all! I was speaking about Bill Gates, period.
The Balzac quote was just for Lit Hum flavoring.
,,,,
and EHP you did call me weird not my vid mash-ups, to be clear!

"Patients showed up regularly in limousines, arriving from other countries (usually from the middle east and Africa), "

I can understand well-off people from poor or undeveloped countries coming to any first world country that offers a broad range of health care on the open market. And the US would be a good choice for that, since it is one of the largest first-world countries, and most of its health services are made available on the open market.

But I don't see how that helps anyone understand what the health services and costs for a regular resident of France, say, compare to those for a regular person living in the US. Based on what I know, I would feel comfortable receiving medical care in France, or the UK, or Sweden, or Japan, or a wide range of other first-world countries (and even in a place like India, with the caveat that I get to spend the same amount as the costs for the treatment in the first world countries).

How much time have you spent living outside the US, in a first-world country, and receiving care under their system?

Nuke,
Reading through Senate archives from yesterday, found this from Feingold:
At the same time, we must focus more attention beyond the safe havens and instability in South Asia, particularly on Yemen and Somalia. The threat from al-Qaida affiliates in those countries, as well as from al Shebaab, is increasing. Weak states, chronic instability, vast ungoverned areas, and unresolved local tensions have created almost ideal safe havens in which terrorists can recruit and operate. They have also attracted foreign fighters including, in the case of Somalia, Americans. Al-Qaida's long tentacles reach into these countries, and our efforts to track individual operatives are critical, just as they are in Pakistan. But, while we should aggressively pursue al-Qaida leaders, we will not achieve our long-term strategic goals if we think about counterterrorism primarily as a manhunt or if we assume there is a finite number of terrorists in the world. Conditions in places such as Yemen and Somalia create and attract new ones. That is why press stories suggesting that operatives from Pakistan are relocating, while troubling, ignore the larger strategic picture. Because of conditions on the ground, al-Qaida affiliates in Yemen and Somalia are perfectly capable of expanding their reach and capabilities on their own. And the best way to stop them is to address head-on the reasons--frequently unique to the countries in which they are operating--for their success.

The threats to our national security in Yemen are serious and are getting worse. News last month about the murder of as many as nine hostages in Yemen, which Yemeni officials have linked to groups affiliated with al-Qaida, is a reminder of the increasing violence there. As in Peshawar, our diplomats have been in the crosshairs, with the attack last September on our Embassy in Sana'a. And, as our State Department has warned, al-Qaida in Yemen's recruitment remains strong, and its tactics indicate high levels of training, coordination, and sophistication. Any serious effort against al-Qaida in Yemen will require the engagement of the government, whose capabilities and commitment are extremely weak. Yemen is a fragile state whose government has limited control outside the capital. It is also distracted from the counterterrorism effort by two other sources of domestic instability--the al-Houthi rebellion in the north and tensions with a southern region with which Sana'a was united less than 20 years ago. In other words, counterterrorism is hampered by weak governance and by internal conflicts that would not appear on the surface to threaten our interests. Our only choice, then, is to develop a comprehensive policy toward Yemen that places counterterrorism within a broader framework that promotes internal stability, economic development, transparency, accountability, and the rule of law.

Yes. So now Al Qeada is moving to other places. You don't say. So are we going to go and invade Yemen and Somalia?

This doesn't sound great: Fourth, we need to recognize that when whole countries or regions are off limits to our diplomats, we have a national security problem....But if our diplomats can't get there, not only will we never truly understand what is going on, we won't be able to engage with the local populations. In some cases, we can and should establish new embassy posts. For years, I have pushed for such an initiative in northern Nigeria, a region where clashes between security forces and extremists have taken hundreds of lives in recent weeks. In some cases, the security concerns are prohibitive. But there, we cannot just turn our backs; our absence doesn't make the threats go away. Instead, we should develop policies that focus on helping to reestablish security, for the sake of the local populations as well as for our own interests.

"But I don't see how that helps anyone understand what the health services and costs for a regular resident of France, say, compare to those for a regular person living in the US. Based on what I know, I would feel comfortable receiving medical care in France, or the UK, or Sweden, or Japan, or a wide range of other first-world countries (and even in a place like India, with the caveat that I get to spend the same amount as the costs for the treatment in the first world countries)."

So why are they coming to Los Angeles when they need serious health care? Simple answer: it's free, and it's the best.

So why are we providing free health care to the sickest people of the world? Because we're stupid?

Let me try to explain this to you one more time. My destitute friend who was dying of cancer went to County/USC as a last resort because he was broke and could not afford real health care. Yet what we saw there was people from all over the world lining up for the worst that America has to offer, and insisting on getting it for free.

What does this tell you?

"How much time have you spent living outside the US, in a first-world country, and receiving care under their system? "

I challenge your assumption.

Frankly, there aren't any other "first world countries".

I have traveled widely, and I have not seen any of these " first world countries" that you mention.

Sure, there are plenty of second-world countries like England, France, etc.

But first-world countries? Not so much.

sm_landlord, that one incident 20 years ago in LA made a very big impression on you. You drew a lot of broad conclusions from it. I don't know how much time you've spent living abroad (in another first-world country), but maybe I should assume it is zero, since you haven't responded to that question. If you lived in one of these other countries (such as France, or Sweden, or....) you'd be able to see for yourself what health care in those other countries is like.

I received adequate care when I lived abroad. I am not a big consumer of medical care, but I didn't notice much difference between the quality of the care here versus there. My family all live in other countries, and some have had to consume a lot more medical care than I have. My family in the UK complain about waiting for procedures, but they are satisfied overall. They are are extremely sophisticated about medicine. The household head is a neurologist who was the head of research for a well-known drug company with 50,000 employees. He is intimately familiar with the US health system as well as the UK as other European models. Several of the UK family members have lived in the US for periods. My family in France complains about the ridiculous over-use of prescription drugs by the French, and the resultant costs that he pays for in taxes. But total costs in France are still way less than in the US.

You get the idea. There are real people out there who have lived in the US, who know a lot about the systems, who understand the defects and advantages of each, and who think the system in the US is unexceptional in quality for most of the public. It does cost a lot more than almost everywhere else. Maybe these folks are all wrong, but when you base that conclusion on your own experience, weigh how little direct knowledge you have of the other systems.

Third class at best. Of no consequence.

Isakson, on the $15k tax credit for homebuyers:
This amendment was first offered by myself and others in January of 2008. It is an amendment that would provide a $15,000 income tax credit to a family that purchases and occupies as their home any single-family dwelling in the United States, regardless of their age, their income, or their State. Six months later, in the middle of 2008, the Finance Committee did pass a $7,500 tax credit which was an interest-free loan, trying to incentivize first-time home buyers to come to the market. But because it was a loan, it didn't do anything. So in December of last year, we changed it to an $8,000 tax credit for only first-time home buyers with incomes less than $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 for couples.

Restoring our economy is important. Recovering the equity of our homes is important. Repaying the American people for the dissipation of our marketplace is important. The home buyers tax credit will do it. I urge my colleagues to vote yes on the Isakson amendment.