Sorry, but just how would that work? Real estate is a truly localized market, even though via changes in home-owners' equity and ability to extract cash it influences consumer behavior at a much more aggregate level. But it is that behavior that has a widespread impact, not real estate.
As bigbalagan I wonder how a housing slowdown in the US would necessarily spread worldwide. Just because reduced consumer spending would affect foreign exports to the US? Is there a finantial link among housing markets that would trigger bubble bursts around the world?
So far, the UK real estate slowdown did not affect very much other housing markets.
add chicago to the list of cooled housing markets.
won't a collapsing housing market, and a slowing economy from the construction pullbacks, create defaulting home loans which will then queer the huge mortgage security pools that the (unregulated) hedge funds have been trafficing in?
The entire globe has had a syncronized rise in real estate- the concept 'real estate markets are all local' may be a dated idea- since never has real estate risen so long and so high in many geographic regions of the world. Remember what happened when another asset bubble burst- that was fueled by easy money in 1929- the crash spread into a worldwide depression. Shiller's idea's are possible. The US Bubble is still propping up many other world markets- if we chill- they may as well.
The entire globe has had a syncronized rise in real estate- the concept 'real estate markets are all local' may be a dated idea- since never has real estate risen so long and so high in many geographic regions of the world. Remember what happened when another asset bubble burst- that was fueled by easy money in 1929- the crash spread into a worldwide depression. Shiller's idea's are possible. The US Bubble is still propping up many other world markets- if we chill- they may as well.
bigbalagan and IM, First, I think Shiller believes that the same speculative behavior that created the housing bubble in parts of the US has occurred overseas too (like Spain, etc.). A change in behavior will impact those markets too (lost employment, less borrowing against home equity leading to less consumer spending).
Its unclear both how quickly the housing market will slow, and how large an impact the slowing housing market will have on the US economy. But IF the market "tanks" that will probably lead to a recession in the US. Since the US is the largest importer in the World, a US recession will probably impact many other countries.
So there are two possible reasons that a "tanking" US real estate market might lead the World into recession: 1) many countries have their own housing bubbles, and 2) the World economy is tied together.
Its the debt bubble that is threatening. The unprecedented expansion of the world-wide money supply is the source of the nominal price increases in real estate in the US, UK, the EU and Asia (as well as the run-up of commodity and share prices). I anticipate the prospect of the coming correction to be global due to the ubiquitous presence of the dollar worldwide.
As central bankers are forced to continue to raise fiat currency benchmark rates (to cool overheated growth, forestall resource and commodity inflation, or to attract investors for refunding the expiring debt of currencies that are losing their purchasing power) marginal debtors with floating rate loans will be forced to sell shares to service debt.
Later in the cycle, some of these debtors will default. Keep in mind the quadrupling of adjustable loans as a percentage of total loan volume over the past few years, and that most foreclosures occur in years three through five of loan servicing. There will follow a cascading reduction of housing prices as REO assets are auctioned to restore capital reserve ratios of banks with troubled loan portfolios (not all loans reside in the secondary market). This possibility has been foreshadowed by the Japanese experience of the past 16 years.
This is a very simplified explanation. It does not include the concomitant effects of a FED (and other central bankers) policy that will add liquidity to avoid deflation, protectionism to support domestic markets, and the further reduction in consumers confidence that may precede additional declines in spending that will further reduce production and incomes. The prospect of a decade or two of wringing out the excess liquidity is probably in order. I think the gold market is reflecting this more than the explanations of uncertainty over Iran or uninformed speculation.
2 bits to add
A. Even in markets that are not super hot like SoCal there has been a 10-15 year increase in folks using their appreciated house values as a piggy bank. While some have used the extracted funds to keep their mortgage payment stream going most have used the money for either home improvement or just-plain-spending.
That spending will shrink as house price increases tamper off. If house prices fall and ARMs adjust we will see a bunch of foreclosures.
Example: Japan - They are similar in land area to California and at their real estate peak had an aggregate market value greater than the entire USA. Then they crashed.
They pulled all sorts of bunnies out of many hats to keep some major institution functioning but have suffered about 15 years of stagnant economy (even though their export picture remained strong).
Cunsumer spending is a huge hunk of the US economy. Riff-ing behind this housing scene is the increase in the credit card minimum monthly payment %. Are those folks diverting cash from spending to retire debt or are they finding creative ways to get cash to pay the higher minimums so they can continue the spending party?
Watching poor old Robert is more fun than it should be. His one-note revert to the mean message didnt translate too well in real estate, so hes back in the equities circuit where he a started.
"It looks like we're at the peak" in U.S. housing, he said. "But I can't claim victory yet.
Claim victory? Doing so would require him to reconcile his years-long predictions of a US housing collapse followed by a massive global recession with actual reality, would it not?
He says his own portfolio is light on U.S. stocks and heavy on emerging markets. "I have money in India, Brazil and China. So far I've been right," he said.
Wow. Hes been right about emerging markets, which even blind, semi-retarded donkeys are over weight with.
Nikkei down 2.5%...enjoy....RE looks like it MUST go down, for no other reason than average people cant afford it. The rich, just like this republican congress, always blow it when they ignore the working and middles classes who really support the economy. What do these gold bugs think they are doing? They're gonna eat that gold or trade it for goods? Where? In Thunderdome? You still have to convert it back into currency. Who knows, maybe the dollar will go to hell, but so will everything else...oh well, bears be careful what they wish for.
I think jag has hit it on the nose. If RE causes a credit crunch, Hedge funds could cause massive problms in the financial markets. There has been a hedge fund boom of late and one aspect of many hedge funds is that they too are highly levered. If they get called on their debt they may be forced to dump their assets, which could ripple through the markets. Think long-term capital but much worse..
Beltway Bob...
It is not always easy to predict the timing of market turns (the Japanese Real Estate Bubble went on for a very long time for instance). But arguing that "this time it is different" doesn't have a good history. I'm naturally cautious, and it is true that agressive investment would have paid off over the last few years. That doesn't mean that somebody won't get burnt in the end. I wish you luck.
"It looks like we're at the peak" in U.S. housing, he said. "But I can't claim victory yet.
I think "YET" is the key word in that statement. Shiller's booms end in busts and so he feels it's too early to declare victory. I think he nailed it already, though. The most speculative areas are already well into retreat and credit hasn't even been cut yet.
If the OCC goes forward with their new proposed mortgage regs on exotic mortgages, the national debt mortgae pyramid is very likely to collapse.
In my view, all he's saying is that 1) housing markets are more correlated than in the past and 2) a severely declining RE market increases the chance for an economic downturn. There's no guarantee these events will all play out concurrently, but it is possible. An analogy would be the Nasdaq crash. For YEARS in the 70s and 80s knowledgable investment guru's preached about the benefits of international diversification among equity markets, that the correlation between such markets was low.
The last 6 10 years, the correlation between U.S. and other developed countries (EAFE) equity markets has risen significantly, and the correlations are higher still in times of crisis. Only emerging markets remains as a significant diversification benefit; for how long we do not know.
Likewise, real estate markets - formerly not well correlated even among U.S. cities, have shown increasing correlation globally. Whether this is heightened as the U.S. housing market declines remains to be seen, but the precedent is their in other asset classes.
I have always doubted that housing appreciation really makes anyone wealthier, at least anyone other than an investor. Housing appreciation is really just compensation for enduring more congestion and paying more for housing is just offsetting reduced commuting expenses. It doesn't improve the home you are living in or provide a better standard of living to anyone. It only generates higher taxes. Having more to borrow against may leverage the return but unless one moves to a less expensive area, there is no method to really realize it. It really provides no benefit unless it is an investment property one can opt out of without having to move.
Mr. Wallace,
"What do these gold bugs think they are doing? They're gonna eat that gold or trade it for goods? Where? In Thunderdome? You still have to convert it back into currency."
There are many scenarios between the uncertainty of today and the chaos of a non-fictional Thunderdome, most of which, as you correctly point out, will require currency.
Here's my evaluation. A fixed quantity of gold has purchased the same quantity of basic goods and services for approximately 6,000 years. Yes, past results are not a guarantee of future performance, but I submit for your consideration this fact: no paper currency has held its value for even the relatively short duration of a decade. The "almighty" dollar today will only buy what a nickel purchased when my mother was a teenager. So much for it's store of value.
Because a small insurance premium will buy you a large multiple of coverage, you may consider a reasonable allocation of your assets into gold bullion as a sensible insurance policy in the face of a Treasury that is creating dollars at a rate unprecedented during any period of history.
To whatever level the dollar index falls (shy of default) you'll be able to find individuals willing to exchange depreciating paper for scarce and enduring gold. And if default occurs gold has always been a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange. It can't be created by fiat. It can be assayed to determine exact quantity. It thus has the essential properties of money: a means of exchange with a store of value.
Lord wrote, I have always doubted that housing appreciation really makes anyone wealthier, at least anyone other than an investor.
To really understand this stuff, you have to understand rent (as in land, Ricardian or scarcity rent).
It's true that increases in the value of land don't themselves represent any increase in true wealth, where true wealth would mean an increase in capital.
On the other hand, I doubt that only investors get rich off of housing appreciation.
Increases in housing prices are a transfer of wealth - not an increase in wealth. Decreasing prices would also cause a tranfer of wealth. At the end of each direction of transfer a different group of people is happier.
As a three decade real estate investor, I am pretty happy these days. I expect such happiness to diminish during the next few years... before becoming happier than ever in the next upswing.
Increases in housing prices are a transfer of wealth - not an increase in wealth.
I get what you are saying but it ia not exactly true.
Imagine 10 identical houses recently purchased for and still thought to be worth $100K (okay I live in a cheap midwestern small town)... and then one of them sells for $125,000.
That transaction is indeed a wealth transfer of an $25,000 (equal to the price increase over the previous basis) from the new buyer to the seller... BUT if all the other 9 owners now believe THEIR homes are worth an additional $25K too... then there is an increase in 'wealth' of $225K in that neighborhood.
Now we KNOW that EXTRA $225k isn't real money until the gains are captured through individual transaction... but the people in that neighborhood would be hard to convince otherwise.
On a very micro level there has been an increase in wealth... but on a macro level it is a wealth transfer.
The other nine homeowners in your example can believe whatever they want to believe. The neighbor's home need not have sold for $125,000 for them to fantasize about the money they could gain. Realistic or not, that $225,000 represents a notional market value that can only be realized upon the transfer of wealth from a buyer. Their notional gain is offset by a notional potential transfer from a future buyer who will now have to pay more than previously thought. No wealth has been created for the economy.
The homeowner could enjoy the gain by borrowing... however, debt is not wealth, it comes with an obligation to repay, and pledging an asset to secure that debt does not make it wealth.
I think Robert Shiller first made his predictions of an overvalued stock market in 1995. The S&P 500 was at 500. If you sold out then, you'd still be waiting a long time for the time to buy back in. He's a smart man, and I really liked his book - it convinced me right before the peak in 2000. But I didn't do much about it; I think I changed my equity weightings by about 5%. Housing in the US and in many other countries (from what I read) is overvalued, but I'm not sure there's much the average person can, or should, do to profit from it. On the individual level, we all need housing, so owning one house is a proper ALM position for most of us. Go short housing, even when it looks expensive (and it looked expensive to me 4 years ago, luckily I didn't try to profit from my hunch) can leave the average person in a real bind.
Regarding wealth: the price fluctions in property values are a combination of two things:
* Changes in the annual land rent
* Changes in the discount rate
The value of a property is the value of the building and other improvements, plus the capitalized value of land rent (aka Ricardian rent) after taxes. Increases in the total value come from increases in the capitalized land rent, not the building itself, as the building wears down overtime and hence must become ever less valuable.
A good chunk (perhaps most of it?) of increased value in the recent bubble was due to decreasing interest rates. That means the discounted value of the future income stream of land rent is higher. There's no change in wealth of any kind there, just a change in the discount factor.
Increases in land rent itself represents increased demand for land. It might reflect an increase in "true" value, in the form of a positive externality. (Local government builds a magnet school somewhere; Intel comes and builds a plant. In both these cases the value of nearby homes would likely increase.) But that doesn't mean the actual "wealth" is in the land, but rather that owning the land enables the landowner to capture some of the wealth even though he didn't create it.
Sorry, but just how would that work? Real estate is a truly localized market, even though via changes in home-owners' equity and ability to extract cash it influences consumer behavior at a much more aggregate level. But it is that behavior that has a widespread impact, not real estate.
As bigbalagan I wonder how a housing slowdown in the US would necessarily spread worldwide. Just because reduced consumer spending would affect foreign exports to the US? Is there a finantial link among housing markets that would trigger bubble bursts around the world?
So far, the UK real estate slowdown did not affect very much other housing markets.
add chicago to the list of cooled housing markets.
won't a collapsing housing market, and a slowing economy from the construction pullbacks, create defaulting home loans which will then queer the huge mortgage security pools that the (unregulated) hedge funds have been trafficing in?
just asking...
The entire globe has had a syncronized rise in real estate- the concept 'real estate markets are all local' may be a dated idea- since never has real estate risen so long and so high in many geographic regions of the world. Remember what happened when another asset bubble burst- that was fueled by easy money in 1929- the crash spread into a worldwide depression. Shiller's idea's are possible. The US Bubble is still propping up many other world markets- if we chill- they may as well.
The entire globe has had a syncronized rise in real estate- the concept 'real estate markets are all local' may be a dated idea- since never has real estate risen so long and so high in many geographic regions of the world. Remember what happened when another asset bubble burst- that was fueled by easy money in 1929- the crash spread into a worldwide depression. Shiller's idea's are possible. The US Bubble is still propping up many other world markets- if we chill- they may as well.
bigbalagan and IM, First, I think Shiller believes that the same speculative behavior that created the housing bubble in parts of the US has occurred overseas too (like Spain, etc.). A change in behavior will impact those markets too (lost employment, less borrowing against home equity leading to less consumer spending).
Its unclear both how quickly the housing market will slow, and how large an impact the slowing housing market will have on the US economy. But IF the market "tanks" that will probably lead to a recession in the US. Since the US is the largest importer in the World, a US recession will probably impact many other countries.
So there are two possible reasons that a "tanking" US real estate market might lead the World into recession: 1) many countries have their own housing bubbles, and 2) the World economy is tied together.
Best Wishes.
Its the debt bubble that is threatening. The unprecedented expansion of the world-wide money supply is the source of the nominal price increases in real estate in the US, UK, the EU and Asia (as well as the run-up of commodity and share prices). I anticipate the prospect of the coming correction to be global due to the ubiquitous presence of the dollar worldwide.
As central bankers are forced to continue to raise fiat currency benchmark rates (to cool overheated growth, forestall resource and commodity inflation, or to attract investors for refunding the expiring debt of currencies that are losing their purchasing power) marginal debtors with floating rate loans will be forced to sell shares to service debt.
Later in the cycle, some of these debtors will default. Keep in mind the quadrupling of adjustable loans as a percentage of total loan volume over the past few years, and that most foreclosures occur in years three through five of loan servicing. There will follow a cascading reduction of housing prices as REO assets are auctioned to restore capital reserve ratios of banks with troubled loan portfolios (not all loans reside in the secondary market). This possibility has been foreshadowed by the Japanese experience of the past 16 years.
This is a very simplified explanation. It does not include the concomitant effects of a FED (and other central bankers) policy that will add liquidity to avoid deflation, protectionism to support domestic markets, and the further reduction in consumers confidence that may precede additional declines in spending that will further reduce production and incomes. The prospect of a decade or two of wringing out the excess liquidity is probably in order. I think the gold market is reflecting this more than the explanations of uncertainty over Iran or uninformed speculation.
Any thoughts on flaws in this scenario?
Just chart the EFA index against the S&P500 and you will see how the whole world is moving in sync.
2 bits to add
A. Even in markets that are not super hot like SoCal there has been a 10-15 year increase in folks using their appreciated house values as a piggy bank. While some have used the extracted funds to keep their mortgage payment stream going most have used the money for either home improvement or just-plain-spending.
That spending will shrink as house price increases tamper off. If house prices fall and ARMs adjust we will see a bunch of foreclosures.
Example: Japan - They are similar in land area to California and at their real estate peak had an aggregate market value greater than the entire USA. Then they crashed.
They pulled all sorts of bunnies out of many hats to keep some major institution functioning but have suffered about 15 years of stagnant economy (even though their export picture remained strong).
.
Watching poor old Robert is more fun than it should be. His one-note revert to the mean message didnt translate too well in real estate, so hes back in the equities circuit where he a started.
"It looks like we're at the peak" in U.S. housing, he said. "But I can't claim victory yet.
Claim victory? Doing so would require him to reconcile his years-long predictions of a US housing collapse followed by a massive global recession with actual reality, would it not?
He says his own portfolio is light on U.S. stocks and heavy on emerging markets. "I have money in India, Brazil and China. So far I've been right," he said.
Wow. Hes been right about emerging markets, which even blind, semi-retarded donkeys are over weight with.
Nikkei down 2.5%...enjoy....RE looks like it MUST go down, for no other reason than average people cant afford it. The rich, just like this republican congress, always blow it when they ignore the working and middles classes who really support the economy. What do these gold bugs think they are doing? They're gonna eat that gold or trade it for goods? Where? In Thunderdome? You still have to convert it back into currency. Who knows, maybe the dollar will go to hell, but so will everything else...oh well, bears be careful what they wish for.
I think jag has hit it on the nose. If RE causes a credit crunch, Hedge funds could cause massive problms in the financial markets. There has been a hedge fund boom of late and one aspect of many hedge funds is that they too are highly levered. If they get called on their debt they may be forced to dump their assets, which could ripple through the markets. Think long-term capital but much worse..
Beltway Bob...
It is not always easy to predict the timing of market turns (the Japanese Real Estate Bubble went on for a very long time for instance). But arguing that "this time it is different" doesn't have a good history. I'm naturally cautious, and it is true that agressive investment would have paid off over the last few years. That doesn't mean that somebody won't get burnt in the end. I wish you luck.
"It looks like we're at the peak" in U.S. housing, he said. "But I can't claim victory yet.
I think "YET" is the key word in that statement. Shiller's booms end in busts and so he feels it's too early to declare victory. I think he nailed it already, though. The most speculative areas are already well into retreat and credit hasn't even been cut yet.
If the OCC goes forward with their new proposed mortgage regs on exotic mortgages, the national debt mortgae pyramid is very likely to collapse.
In my view, all he's saying is that 1) housing markets are more correlated than in the past and 2) a severely declining RE market increases the chance for an economic downturn. There's no guarantee these events will all play out concurrently, but it is possible. An analogy would be the Nasdaq crash. For YEARS in the 70s and 80s knowledgable investment guru's preached about the benefits of international diversification among equity markets, that the correlation between such markets was low.
The last 6 10 years, the correlation between U.S. and other developed countries (EAFE) equity markets has risen significantly, and the correlations are higher still in times of crisis. Only emerging markets remains as a significant diversification benefit; for how long we do not know.
Likewise, real estate markets - formerly not well correlated even among U.S. cities, have shown increasing correlation globally. Whether this is heightened as the U.S. housing market declines remains to be seen, but the precedent is their in other asset classes.
I have always doubted that housing appreciation really makes anyone wealthier, at least anyone other than an investor. Housing appreciation is really just compensation for enduring more congestion and paying more for housing is just offsetting reduced commuting expenses. It doesn't improve the home you are living in or provide a better standard of living to anyone. It only generates higher taxes. Having more to borrow against may leverage the return but unless one moves to a less expensive area, there is no method to really realize it. It really provides no benefit unless it is an investment property one can opt out of without having to move.
Mr. Wallace,
"What do these gold bugs think they are doing? They're gonna eat that gold or trade it for goods? Where? In Thunderdome? You still have to convert it back into currency."
There are many scenarios between the uncertainty of today and the chaos of a non-fictional Thunderdome, most of which, as you correctly point out, will require currency.
Here's my evaluation. A fixed quantity of gold has purchased the same quantity of basic goods and services for approximately 6,000 years. Yes, past results are not a guarantee of future performance, but I submit for your consideration this fact: no paper currency has held its value for even the relatively short duration of a decade. The "almighty" dollar today will only buy what a nickel purchased when my mother was a teenager. So much for it's store of value.
Because a small insurance premium will buy you a large multiple of coverage, you may consider a reasonable allocation of your assets into gold bullion as a sensible insurance policy in the face of a Treasury that is creating dollars at a rate unprecedented during any period of history.
To whatever level the dollar index falls (shy of default) you'll be able to find individuals willing to exchange depreciating paper for scarce and enduring gold. And if default occurs gold has always been a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange. It can't be created by fiat. It can be assayed to determine exact quantity. It thus has the essential properties of money: a means of exchange with a store of value.
Thanks,
Lord wrote, I have always doubted that housing appreciation really makes anyone wealthier, at least anyone other than an investor.
To really understand this stuff, you have to understand rent (as in land, Ricardian or scarcity rent).
It's true that increases in the value of land don't themselves represent any increase in true wealth, where true wealth would mean an increase in capital.
On the other hand, I doubt that only investors get rich off of housing appreciation.
Increases in housing prices are a transfer of wealth - not an increase in wealth. Decreasing prices would also cause a tranfer of wealth. At the end of each direction of transfer a different group of people is happier.
As a three decade real estate investor, I am pretty happy these days. I expect such happiness to diminish during the next few years... before becoming happier than ever in the next upswing.
Increases in housing prices are a transfer of wealth - not an increase in wealth.
I get what you are saying but it ia not exactly true.
Imagine 10 identical houses recently purchased for and still thought to be worth $100K (okay I live in a cheap midwestern small town)... and then one of them sells for $125,000.
That transaction is indeed a wealth transfer of an $25,000 (equal to the price increase over the previous basis) from the new buyer to the seller... BUT if all the other 9 owners now believe THEIR homes are worth an additional $25K too... then there is an increase in 'wealth' of $225K in that neighborhood.
Now we KNOW that EXTRA $225k isn't real money until the gains are captured through individual transaction... but the people in that neighborhood would be hard to convince otherwise.
On a very micro level there has been an increase in wealth... but on a macro level it is a wealth transfer.
The other nine homeowners in your example can believe whatever they want to believe. The neighbor's home need not have sold for $125,000 for them to fantasize about the money they could gain. Realistic or not, that $225,000 represents a notional market value that can only be realized upon the transfer of wealth from a buyer. Their notional gain is offset by a notional potential transfer from a future buyer who will now have to pay more than previously thought. No wealth has been created for the economy.
The homeowner could enjoy the gain by borrowing... however, debt is not wealth, it comes with an obligation to repay, and pledging an asset to secure that debt does not make it wealth.
I think Robert Shiller first made his predictions of an overvalued stock market in 1995. The S&P 500 was at 500. If you sold out then, you'd still be waiting a long time for the time to buy back in. He's a smart man, and I really liked his book - it convinced me right before the peak in 2000. But I didn't do much about it; I think I changed my equity weightings by about 5%. Housing in the US and in many other countries (from what I read) is overvalued, but I'm not sure there's much the average person can, or should, do to profit from it. On the individual level, we all need housing, so owning one house is a proper ALM position for most of us. Go short housing, even when it looks expensive (and it looked expensive to me 4 years ago, luckily I didn't try to profit from my hunch) can leave the average person in a real bind.
I would say no wealth has been created, only some paper wealth has that has not been correctly offset by some very real non-monetary costs.
Regarding wealth: the price fluctions in property values are a combination of two things:
* Changes in the annual land rent
* Changes in the discount rate
The value of a property is the value of the building and other improvements, plus the capitalized value of land rent (aka Ricardian rent) after taxes. Increases in the total value come from increases in the capitalized land rent, not the building itself, as the building wears down overtime and hence must become ever less valuable.
A good chunk (perhaps most of it?) of increased value in the recent bubble was due to decreasing interest rates. That means the discounted value of the future income stream of land rent is higher. There's no change in wealth of any kind there, just a change in the discount factor.
Increases in land rent itself represents increased demand for land. It might reflect an increase in "true" value, in the form of a positive externality. (Local government builds a magnet school somewhere; Intel comes and builds a plant. In both these cases the value of nearby homes would likely increase.) But that doesn't mean the actual "wealth" is in the land, but rather that owning the land enables the landowner to capture some of the wealth even though he didn't create it.
Well, he certainly can claim victory now...