Wow, time to go surfing...

Alright. Call it the great second upward inflection and everyone is happy.

lot of economic destruction going on, any of it been creative yet?

How many more charts of "Danger Will Robinson, danger!" do we need before the flashing red lights sink in though?

response from a few threads back, had to go "walkies".

MS,

When you say the prmeiums are richer ar eyou suggesting the market makers are pricing it that way to disuade?

Well in a nutshell yes.....they always hedge.... It's not the entire reason but there is certainly an added amount of "fluff" there to make me stay away from them.

Ciao
MS

bring it on. i've been saying this for a while - serious delinquencies have been building for a while. lawyerliz has shared some anecdotes - people living in houses without pay their mortgage for years.

Do Not Walk Away from a mortgage - just stop paying. You probably have 2 - 3 years before they come for you, depending on the circumstances (servicer, state, etc).

Vonbeck;

Can't you buy insurance for that?

Does that drop in REO rate while foreclosures ramping = shadow inventory?

Im beginning to think that the living without paying the mortgage thing is part of the stimulus package.

living without paying your mortgage obligation. i wonder how china likes buying houses for americans to live in.

OT Noise Alert for the Apocalypse.
YouTube -

But... but... the recession is over and the bull market is back.
Isn't it?

"Im beginning to think that the living without paying the mortgage thing is part of the stimulus package. "

If so, somebody needs to tell the overly-virtuous who think they have to leave. Especially since the bank might not ever take the house, and they find themselves still liable for it years later when the city calls to ask what they're going to do about the bandos living there now.

CR,

Why would the gap between foreclosures and REO be widening? Does that indicate banks are now unloading REO as fast as they are are foreclosing on new inventory?

That would indicate the opposite of story that banks are holding REO of the market, wouldn't it?

"Bingo, free houses. Gives me a goal!! "

Interesting. I wonder what the law is per state. That could be huge for some people. I have seen dqs over 1000 days. Nothing at 1500 days.

Yet

However, in our green-shoots alternate universe, these are ALL good things:

anti-forclosure
anti-capital
anti-earnings

It was formerly unheard of for a foreclosure to last that long!

Lenders totally incompetent first to last.

Eric, what about your puts?

I'm looking to lighten up on some stuff into the close, so please ask to stop by the mining department when you see him.

Thanks!

LLIz - I'm not an attorney, and you've made the case for a recourse loan in practice being non-recourse, but in the 5-year limit case you described ISTM that the lender could argue that the debt may be invalidated but we still own the house.

Interesting chart from: dshort.com: S&P Composite Bear Curve
http://dshort.com/charts/bears/bear-market-recovery-curve.gif
Looks like the real recovery may take awhile-

Eric, what about your puts?

Ssshhhhh.... reverse psych doesn't work if you point it out.

DOH!!!!!

I am waiting for cookie monster to show up!

When GS finishes positioning their shorts, I think he'll drop by . . . . (so to speak).

Re: the overly-virtuous

However, one of the LAST things that separates Merica from a real Banana Republic is that the peasants STILL don't know it yet. This means the majority of the peasants are still living in a fear-based moral world (they DO walk away when they stop paying, which is "good"). This also makes the cops honest and the garbage-collectors collect.

If more and more people stop believing.... we WILL be a banana-republic from the bottom to the top. This isn't good. We need OUR peasants to have fear (morals).

This was my question. Why are REO's going down? Bailout money anyone?

"However, one of the LAST things that separates Merica from a real Banana Republic is that the peasants STILL don't know it yet. "

Agreed, many are still indoctrinated to believe American is the land of opportunity for all. Slowly but surely that mindset will fall away. The amount of wealth distribution we have seen in the past 10 years, as a result of the Fed-induced booms, will manifest itself in ways we are only beginning to see. We will see more and more of "protecting your own class at all costs", as we have witnessed with the bank bailouts.

the REOs are dropping because of the moratoriums - it takes time to go through the foreclosure process and take ownership of a house - if the govt stops the foreclosure process from starting (which they did), it takes time to catch up.

i personally never believed the banks were holding back REOs from the market (helps to have firsthand knowledge), they just got behind because of the moratoriums and are only now starting to catch up.

that will be the true "wave" - the pipeline has been building and buidling and building - the REO numbers are the "second wave", wait until the banks catch up to those. it is gonna get ugly.

NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 1:08 pm

If more and more people stop believing.... we WILL be a banana-republic from the bottom to the top. This isn't good. We need OUR peasants to have fear (morals).

As I've said before, as the meritocratic illusion is shattered visibly by lack of lockstep jobs and the ruling class overtly misbehaving without regard to consequence (because they know there are none for them), the scales start to fall from their eyes.

again re REOs - note the offset to foreclosures (this is an excellent graph, btw) - the process is dq --> foreclosure --> reo. timeline may vary, the process does not.

so we saw a decline in foreclosures in sept - dec as the agencies really put on the brakes (then they allowed a few foreclosures as the clarified the rules - non owner occupacy was allowed, etc) then the decline in REO followed.

now we see foreclosures picking up - what's gonna happen to REOs? gee, i wonder.

what then happens to house prices? gee, i wonder.

compounded is the fact tht the selling season is over. oh, and mortgage rates have crept up.

my family is almost evenly divided repub v dem

the righties are surprised to hear this lefty say that i think (guess) obama will not be able to stem an advancing economic depression

mathew padilla hits at a nerve

the continuing waves of RE collapse (and the continuing banksterism on wall street , a different topic) are foreboding

im struck by the numbers of people in high places who tried to stop the collapse and were force out...born is one example

heres another

SEC chairman, william donaldson....worth a fast blast to the past

how this honored sage of wallstreet and a republican tried to apply modest regs to derivatives and was forced out in 05

- NY Times

ghostfaceinvestah (profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 1:21 pm

compounded is the fact tht the selling season is over. oh, and mortgage rates have crept up.

In the end, you can't fight a tsunami. Eventually capitulation and survival instinct overrides hubris, buy-in and years of education and propagandizing.

"But, I'm hoping it doesn't happen BEFORE I can get outahere tho. I'm thinking I've got at least 10 years. Merican peasants are THE most gullible in the world."

Not even virtuous Americans -- increasingly a minority in the economic sense -- will give you ten years. I don't see the banana republic path, _ necessarily_, but I do see serious populism if the current political establishment is too ossified to adapt. And populism can go any which way.

Re the marriage thing.

Been officially married to males twice, and it cost me a lot of money and trouble. Now I'd love to be able to marry my partner, having found the right person finally, and can't.

We forked out plenty of cash to have assorted papers drawn up to hopefully protect our legal access to each other, but it's not the same as a legal marriage license.

I get pissed off at the gay "marriage" racket. If it's not registerable at the county office, it's not a marriage! Why should I pay for soem stupid ceremony that just makes some planner a profit?

I'd like to hear cold hard facts on just what percentage of and where people are able to keep living in their homes because lenders do not follow thru on foreclosures.

Living in a generally non-bubble area, I would very highly doubt that is happening here. I believe 5 months is 5 months where I am. Not a lot of foreclosure activity anyway.

But other areas - I hear anecdotally here and believe it - but how widespread is this?

Any numbers? I suppose most people don't want to peep too much or they may wake up the sleeping giant.

"We forked out plenty of cash to have assorted papers drawn up to hopefully protect our legal access to each other, but it's not the same as a legal marriage license."

A lawyer once told me, "Marriage is a complete package of privileges and responsibilities. You can try to recreate it through a series of agreements -- but that is not preferable, nor as sound."

If two people are to be bonded together as a family unit, they deserve "the package." Or the equivalent.

I increasingly say: the state should not certify marriage: it should certify only civil unions for all, unions that guarantee the package. And let marriage be the mucky stomping ground of theologians.

poic, Wasn't trying to dazzle, just trying to understand and talk...so sorry to hit a nerve.

Bob Dobbs, well said!

Bob Dobbs - I try not to be too verbal on this topic as it's hard to argue philosophy, but your comment describes my attitude concisely.

The economic motive of walking away was never part of the stress tests. Big mistake imo.

Even if you have a job, what's the point of paying on a house when six other similar properties are for sale on your block for 50% less?

Given all the bailouts and wall st. bonuses, I think more and more will say screw it and ruthlessly jingle mail the albatross away. People will be able to improve their financial situations AND screw the banks at the same time. That's a BIG incentive.

Hell hath no fury like scorned, underwater home owers.

If two people are to be bonded together as a family unit, they deserve "the package." Or the equivalent.

That is the crux of the matter. What is a "family unit"? Hetero couples have caused so much havok with the family law system in our country that there isn't any sort of understanding that plays out across all jurisdictions and all states. You can say it is a state's right issue and pass some form of uniform legal structure like we have for child custody, but Congress and the states would need to agree to that structure. Hence the hodge-podge of agreements vs. human cultural history.

"Civil Unions" are fine if you can agree with them. If you go the route of 2 legal aged adults, then rest assured that the polygamist/polyamory sects will come out. They have human cultural history on their side versus gay couples so it isn't a large step to hop to 1 legal aged adult with many legal aged adults. Then you have even more fun stuff to throw at family law once you make allowances for the polygamist/polyamory folk.

Makes the 1 man & 1 woman argument much more practical and easier.

I can't handle the base function. 1st and 2nd derivative please!

The market is finally starting to sell off a little as the dollar has come off its low today. I find it interesting that CNBC had on the woman from DB in the past hour who said that they estimate that by 2011 half of all homeowners in the US will be underwater on their mortgage.

Re: Makes the 1 man & 1 woman argument much more practical and easier.

What's wrong with "two consenting adults". Takes the wacko religious people right out of the picture.

(Not that I have ANYTHING against parallel marrages. I've been trying to convince my wife that I need a 25 yo hottie a few times a week for years now. For some reason, she says it's not a good idea.)

I think the joke implied above is that gays have been getting legally married in this country since it was founded.

Just not to each other.

(edit: I SUPPORT gay marriage.)

What's wrong with "two consenting adults". Takes the wacko religious people right out of the picture.

Nothing is wrong with it, but how do you stretch it out logically and legally with "three or more consenting adults"? If you stop at two but don't hop to three or four, then you are thinking in just as arbitrary manner as the "one man, one woman" folks.

Again, it is because heterosexuals made the marriage/divorce system the joke it is today. I have nothing against gay marriage at all. All of the Extend & Pretend in our financial & political system has been going on in our family law systems for the past 60+ years, and the fact that we have the problems of dealing with gay marriage are just symptoms of greater societal issues.

Well, I've heard zero anecdotes locally about people staying in homes w/o paying.

There either aren't any stories here, or I'm just not listening in on the right conversations.

I think we need a northeast CR. This is all very interesting, but it just doesn't relate to my area.

according to the data i have, ME, DE, VT, IL take a long time to get people out. NH? pretty fast.

CA is middle of the road, actually kind of quick.

fastest seem to be GA and MD.

it all depends on state laws, I think, some states are what they call "judicial foreclosure" or not, how backed up the courts are, etc.

and then of course today it depends highly on the servicer - a big bank will probably take longer than if you local bank is actually servicing their own mortgages (rare as that may be).

but in some states, it takes a while no matter what.

based on my data, Liz's state is actually middle of the road in terms of time frame, but clearly that is not the case today as they are so backed up.

I should go get a mortgage and never make a payment.

I am feeling too irrational for denying my free ride.

...just deal with contract issues between self-described, voluntary family groups.

Again, that is the real issue, but just like we aren't going to reform CA's fiscal budget or Wall Street's capture of regulatory structures over a single session of a legislative body, we aren't going to overhaul 200+ years of case law and statutes to figure out that Gordian Knot that is the redefining of the family unit that has been happening for 60+ years.

Until we can agree on what "voluntary family groups" are--children traditionally don't get a say in the groups in which they exist until later in life--then we are back to separate pre-nups, post-nups, and contract law.

ghostface - thank you for the general timelines. That helps put the story in perspective.

More
Same Store Sales Stink (July) - The Market Ticker

"I always thought Cookie Monster was a harbinger of the Apocalypse...And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And the Great Cookie Monster devoured the world. Something like that..."

"C is for cookie, and that's good enough for me." Very illustrative of the American mindset. No need to worry about the rest of the alphabet. Grandkids can worry about that mountain of debt getting kicked down the road.

Re: of greater societal issues

You are probably right about it being a "line-in-the-sand" thing, for both sides. I guess because I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything supported by BOTH fundies AND Republicans I will have to side with THOSE LIE-BRALS on this one. But, you are also right, next it will be those OPEN marriage people. Marriage is obsolite anyway Mostly it's just a method to force males to take financial-responsiblity for his kids. Otherwise, the males would just be engaged in financially-free serial "marriages" which is what is natural anyway (and based on the number of single young females running around with kids is what's happening anyway).

Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 1:57 pm

"C is for cookie, and that's good enough for me." Very illustrative of the American mindset. No need to worry about the rest of the alphabet. Grandkids can worry about that mountain of debt getting kicked down the road.

Nah - the smartest and most ruthless of those grandkids will just figure out a way to kick that mountain of debt further down the road to their grandkids. It will go until it stops.

It looks like Texas has the hands-down shortest timeframe? Wish it would sort by process days.

Wow, Calculated Risk posted my chart. That's a special kind of honor, considering your charts are so good. I think the main argument here is that we don't have to wait for loan recasts and resets to see more delinquencies. They are happening right now.

we have fewer foreclosures

More local data (but REAL data)...

Alameda County (CA) Trustee Deeds (completed foreclosures) were averaging 450/mo during Jan-May. Then June was ~750 and July 617, so there is definitely a jump after a lull.

Further, Notices of Trustee Sale (the final threat before foreclosure) leaped from 895 in June to 1331 in July and is running at a pace of 1200 for August.

But, you are also right, next it will be those OPEN marriage people. Marriage is obsolite anyway Mostly it's just a method to force males to take financial-responsiblity for his kids. Otherwise, the males would just be engaged in financially-free serial "marriages" which is what is natural anyway (and based on the number of single young females running around with kids is what's happening anyway).

FD: I live in the world of family law and earn my daily bread in this field. Nothing I state should be taken as anything other than my personal/private opinion.

Yes, marriage is a way to form tight social bonds for multiple reasons but it has always existed for the purpose of estate planning and of doling out responsibilities for taking care of the next generation. Anything else is sentiment/personal opinion added to it after the fact.

"And stricter lending standards. "

Yes, Texas is pretty instructive. It has MUCH stricter lending standards on cash out refis (all the "homestead" laws that restrict fees).

No doubt it made a huge difference, the subprime vultures were present in Texas, but much more wary of violating state laws.

Fair Economist (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 1:48 pm

For foreclosures, there are two clear waves (we're now well into the second) and for REOs there's only one, now mostly over, although obviously with new record levels of foreclosures there's a lot coming. So the multi-wave description works for thing normal people care about (people kicked out of their houses, and cheap houses to buy).
Is the perturbation in the ramp actually due to a freeze on foreclosures that occurred in the Fall?

I have just read on a wacko site that the Illuminati are card caring Platonic idealists who worship Lucifer the all seeing eye and that the idea of a Philosopher King is a conspiracy to remove 90% of the population from the face of the earth...why didn't anyone invite me to join the club...where's my card? I have been arguing for a Philosopher King since grade school...snobs.

not taking sides but marriage is a religous ceremony recognized by the state, not the religous community recognizing the states authority...

The states recognized/sponsored unions are civil unions, the state should legalize gay civil unions...more hair splitting and semantics but truth...

And after the law is changed, of course, the polyamory/polygamy people will agitate and demonstrate for an extension of the privilege. And after they become part of the demographic mainstream, something will happen.

I don't buy that argument. The Mormons were openly living in polygamist family units long before the debate of gay marriage was even fathomable. The fact that separate sects of the Mormon church still practice it--sans the spiritual marriages of minors--doesn't diminish the problem should they be denied if you allowed gay marriage/civil unions. Overlooking them and only allowing gays the acceptance and legal protection seems like a social injustice just waiting to be passed into law.

You don't have religious support--sans Mormons--for either. You don't have a social mandate for either--see Red City vs. Blue City. You don't even have much of a human services for either until you talk about gay adoption/child support. If you want to just make it law 'cause it conveniently fits into a person's personal view of the world so be it, but to make it public policy for no other reason than "They are already doing it" doesn't help you close the legal barn door to the people you do not want to protect with its coverage.

"Is the perturbation in the ramp actually due to a freeze on foreclosures that occurred in the Fall? "

Yes, absolutely.

ghostfaceinvestah (profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 2:59 pm reply Ignore user this seems to be a good table, haven't examined in depth yet, but seems reasonable.

Foreclosure Laws and Procedures By State

note MD and GA, as I mentioned - fast.

speaking as a Md'r and former GA'ian these are minimum times, actually happening in MD a whole lot slower is at all now.... 180 on service maybe...

With all the problems facing America today; are we really discussing who gets to be married and who doesn't?
Who the F*ck cares?
Divide and Conquer is alive and well.

Some relief possibly coming for SRS losers (like me)!

Claims ProShare ETF Didn't Disclose Material Info
NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--A lawsuit filed Wednesday claims that ProShare Advisors LLC and others violated a securities act by failing to disclose risks inherent in its ProShares UltraShort Real Estate fund (SRS), an inverse leveraged exchange-traded fund, including the risk of a "spectacular tracking error."

WSJ Error Page - WSJ.com

76 users online.

CR, I suggest the absence of a quorum.

NOTaREALmerican (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 2:59 pm reply Ignore user

Otherwise, the males would just be engaged in financially-free serial "marriages" which is what is natural anyway (and based on the number of single young females running around with kids is what's happening anyway).

come on now if you truly believe anti fundie then you would believe eveloution and darwinism and then follow up your observation with "while natural as well, the majority of the fatherless household offspring will eventually end up on social assistance, locked up , under educated and majority of the labor servatude there by enforcing the survival of the fitest concept"

wink

Cheer up HomeGnome, least we have football to look forward too in a few weeks, unlike Argentina... although if we built an arena and put GS employees in it against, ohh I don't know, sharks with laser beams...might have a new American pastime...

Some relief possibly coming for SRS losers (like me)!

No, relief coming to the lawyers. You might see enough money out of the settlement for a latte. Maybe a double.

including the risk of a "spectacular tracking error."

Nonsense. They track very well, and perform close to what is claimed in the prospectus. It's just that people didn't read the details and assumed a whole lot based on the title.

The New Yorker offered up a 2 year subscription for $50, 94 issues.

List price is $469.

And it's one of the few magazines I get in the flesh anymore, @ around 50 cents a copy.

Think you'd like to be in the magazine biz?

Just a rambling conversation Homegnome. I have finally figured out that my support or anger at the events today really do not matter---they will play out whether I cheer or hurl pitchforks. Knowing what is happening is a tool and advantage, but getting worked up over it---that is done. The time for citizens to ramp up and get riled up was 30 years ago. Now it is just the fallout. So in that vein, what is wrong with a slightly OT rambling polite conversation between online acquaintances and possibly friends? There is enough on topic comments to keep it from total free-fall.

Loved your wife's site.

Dumb Question: Is the percentage a percentage of mortgage loans or is it as a percentage of outstanding principal balance of mortgage loans? For example, if 5% of the loands are 90+ delinquent and there are 100 loans is it 5 loans or is it based upon the dollar balance of the loans. The reason why I ask is because of the coming waive of jumbo delinquencies and defaults.

Thoughts appreciated.

Glad you enjoyed it, rsj.
Mrs. Gnome is one amazing chef.

Kermit is trying to swim to the surface...elmo better grab a foot and pull him down.

TomTheBear (profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 3:29 pm replyIgnore userDumb Question

not a dumb question as both would be nice to know as one effects the MBS markets and therefore bailout potential more than the other...interesting thought!

Dealing blackjack?

We: but where are they all now?

Who is Running all the Casinos?
(They should have started them in 1492)

I'll take dieties for 400.

I have a question to throw out. I may throw it out in the future too as other posters come online so i can get their take.

A book I read last night (fiction) had as a sub theme trust. Societal trust. Gave some specific examples of high trust areas, and low trust, and familial trust areas and how that can and will affect the outcome of disaster relief, rescue and repair. If an area is low trust and familial then any emergency response unit will take flak and possibly worse and the outcome for that area would be suboptimal, yet in high trust areas (suburban, rural) voluntary random associations would possibly develop and no one would wait around for government manna, they would begin organizing support and such.

This would tie in to the bananna republic theme would it not? Once all trust is gone, trust in cops, garbage collectors, army, neighbors, shoot even soemtimes family, then that will be a very ugly situation. Recovery would become that much harder, yes?

My question is how do you see trust? What do you see in your area? High trust, low trust? How is that affecting the quality of life wherever you are (if anyone responds?)

Also in this book had alot to say in the subplots about organic farming vs intensive modern farming, specifically that feeding our nation on total organic is a dream, there would be famine, that the footprint of organic farming would be worse for the environement etc.....anyone have recommendations of sites and books to check out? thanks.

pavel.chichikov (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 2:38 pm

There is a reason for transcendent moral law. If it is abolished, we will find out why there was a reason.

+1. Personally I don't believe in human ownership, even by consent, so I have little opinion.

JD, I said the disease thing was the best explanation...but we just flat out killed a lot of them too. See this is what I am talking about...there are no oral traditions about mass disease and extinctions and times before the plagues, and there wouldn't be if it killed everyone...but there are stories about the white man murdering every living man, woman, and child wholesale...so I don't know how to reconcile. It interests me because on my both sides, I have two great-grandmothers who were 100% Native American, and the stories that came down, were not pretty all the way up to the 1940s.

Modern large American cities pushed anonymity, which allows you to think the worst of somebody you don't know...

Not good~

there is some unrest building in mudville. the video is a bit of a yawn, but the comments in the thread are getting interesting:

Rep. Steny Hoyer (D) Called A Liar, Shouted Down For Presenting Misleading Economic Data | zero hedge

As of 2007, Census Bureau data says CA had about 400,000 American Indians, 1.2% of the population.

I thought "buggery" referred to anal sex.

Perhaps everyone will join me in a moment of silence in remembrance of the atomic bombing at Hiroshima; 64 years ago...
and for all who have lost family and friends during the folly of war...

Re: the people.

I think two consenting adults would take care of all your various combinations, AND will work for a few MORE centuries (and you AND I will both be dead so the we're BOTH sure the universe will be at an end)

There is a reason for transcendent moral law. If it is abolished, we will find out why there was a reason.

Pavel:

You hit the nail right on the head.

There is no logical conclusion to this progressive civil rights movement besides letting everyone do what they want until it goes to far. That is a dirty little secret of this gay marriage debate. Once the heterosexuals were cut loose with No Fault divorce, then the entire structure threw out whatever claim it had to transcendent moral law. You might as well extend the rights to the disenfranchised because the line is completely arbitrary. Citing religion, social movements, or philosophical argument just colors the arbitrary nature with a flavor you prefer.

I've dealt with fact patterns that could be the poster child for making marriage This or That, but in the end, it is all fluid and transient once we broke out of a religious and society-mandated structure. The preacher today is the adultery-driven divorcee tomorrow.

Rocky,

I'm in Steny's district, he was well loved here by both parties for the "jobs and money" he is now boo'ed at stadiums and by the very civil servants whose buildings he brought to MD... it is not pretty. Now he is hated by...strike that not hated, but majority are extremely disappointed in his non reluctance to push this through and how fast he is to allow the dems to renig on what was touted by him pre election as reform and change....

not what they were expecting and he could face a challenge regardless of war chest, if someone decent runs in primary or generaL AGAINST HIM....

I have always wanted Hollywood to make a retelling of Sodom and Gomorrah...I especially wanted to see the look in the angel's eyes when the crowd tries to rape the 'man in white' outside of Lot's house and the ensuing carnage...wanted to see God tell Abraham that he must go to Sodom to see the 'evil' with his own eyes. Powerful stuff there.

The argument about marriage is a slippery slope...it is hard to navigate and it is yet another human condition that seems prone to cycles.

It's hard to believe, but 50 years ago if you wanted to get a divorce, about the only option was to get one in Nevada, which required you live in state for a period of 6 months, before it was granted to you...

And it is that way with gay divorce now. 50 years from now, maybe the polygamists on some cyber-mental-chat-message board will reflect poetically such as we are now..

majority are extremely disappointed in his non reluctance to push this through and how fast he is to allow the dems to renig on what was touted by him pre election as reform and change....

Not hard to see which team you're rooting for.

Republicans brought us to the brink of the Greater Depression. Democrats haven't solved every problem in the first six months.

Facts, Jack.

I meant to kill the post, because I realized I was taking part in a discussion where comparisons were being made between two consenting adults and sex with animals.

+1 LoL!

Locking response to preserve it!

Elephants AND Asses
Trampling the Masses
Does it matter who steals from you?
Red or Blue?

Democrats haven't solved every problem in the first six months.

sports fan calm down you act like this dem admin exec/leg is the first dem admin ever...

historically none have done what is best or right, but what they ideologically thought was bbest for them and most involved power of the single or self or power of the group or union...but power all the same and no govt program has ever come in under budget and on time by any party...

fact jack...

Re: Recovery would become that much harder, yes?

This is my primary scare for the next 30 years. Trust is really the ONLY thing that holds societies together and you can't mandate or regulate trust. It's built up slowly and can be destroyed quickly.

Personally, I live in a nice guilt-ridden liberal town. These people, being socialists, are genetically trusting - which is why the facsists will wipe them out so quickly. Liberals have no concept of how bad humans really are (again, it's all genetics). They are good to be around when times are good tho (which they still are - in this town - as it lives off the State Government).

Fiduciary Doodie (profile) wrote on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 3:51 pm

and tit for tat... depends whose jersey you are wearing that sunday i guess...

Also depends on whether you call resurrecting failed '30s policies "progress"

Thank you NotaREALamerican.

Since the thread got pigged I can yak a bit without disturbing the on-topic flow since there is a new thread upstream. Working through some thoughts and hoping to bounce them off the commentariat here. I am having a change going on in my thought processes about all this going on and honestly it is disturbing and almost painful.

Many rag on the j6pii for their foolishness and gullibility especially regarding their purchases of houses. I was one of them. I used the word sheeple and fools together many times in my head and heart, and in conversation too. I am starting to squirm with shame about that. (it sucks, sigh) but it gets back to trust. Yes, many were gaming the system, planning to flip, real estate only goes up, buy before priced out forever. but many many bought with the thought 'this is my home, this is the next step, this is the dream baybeee" and believed, trusted, that "they really would not have loaned me the money if I could not pay it back". They TRUSTED. Their was a lot of societal trust that bankers were boring, calm, good stewards of money and the gatekeepers. What the average person did not know is that they gutted the mechanism, were no longer stewards but conmen fleecing their mark, sniggering all the way.

The finance/paper crowd broke the trust, gutted it, trashed it, betrayed it....and never realized just how much was built on that trust, their lives, livelihood depended on trust from allparties to maintain the basic structure and now the j6pii have begun to realize it. How do they fix it? they cant, not with what they are trying to do, all the bailouts, bonuses malarkey and foolishness to preserve bankers and wall st just drives the stake that much further in. Now the fallout from the death of trust. What happens to a nation of 300 + million when it is all against all, lies everywhere, the stronger and smarter have been given an unlimited hunting license on the less smart, less ruthless?

Tanta talked about this many times. Not in so many words, but it did base on this. I miss her. I wish I could tell her I am starting to understand what she was trying to get across.

JP (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 8/6/2009 - 12:24 pm

And worse: It's being discussed because Dawg's dry humor was misread. Bad Dawg! Next time make the humor wetter!

Worse wars have been started because I was misunderstood but yes, absolutely. I will take more care in the future.

hahaha!

OMFG -

7%

90+ days past due

SEVEN PERCENT -

We are so frigg'n doomed -

"texas learned its lesson in the s&l crisis. it's not like these rednecks haven't tried running these scams already."

Yeah but the other sand states were the same states in S&L. At least Texas has the capacity to learn from those errors.