No. This is good. The brakes have been applied. We put on the special gov made ones that cost X trillion. I smell smoke and burning brake pads. We have more in stock right?
Argh!!!!!
Take a name asswipe (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 9:19 am
"The US is abusing trade protectionist tools to help its own industries tide over the economic slowdown. The loss for Chinese businesses is huge," said Zhou Xiaoyan, ...
"The US," Wang said, "expects to transfer part of its economic slowdown to China, which is believed to be the quickest to recover."
I think the reason non-residenial investment has "held up" is a structural change in the zoning planning and infrastructure development process. What we see being put in the ground today has likely been in planning and approval for 3 years. Because of the increasingly large upfront government costs and barriers it is sometimes cheapest to go through with unjustified projects than to abandon those sunk costs.
Sounds like the Chinese are starting to have trouble maintaining a facade consistent with their fake growth numbers, and now are looking for a convenient scapegoat. Which is not to say that we aren't actually to blame...
He turns to the assembled staff in the command center.
"People. We will not allow the 9000 line to be breached today. Commit the reserves as needed. If neccessary, glod help us, I have been authorized to use tactical nukes.
"Sir. China is on the line."
All right. Who ordered carry out?"
"No sir. It's CHINA."
"Tell them get back to me. I will only take calls from my real estate agent. I need to focus. Oh, and the president."
I think I have figured out the White House strategy. See we are going to have a nationwide separation of sheep and goats. The goats will be called bad debt. The sheep will be called good debt which in turn will be called saved debt, and at some point healthy debt will be raptured into good old healthy profit and growth. The bad goats of course will continue to sink into the abyss until they burn up. All the plan requires is faith and a return of an economic savior. Might take a little while, maybe 2000 years or more.
I actually spent the night at the house I was trying to steal, there was no bed in there, I had to use my bookbag as a pillow and sleep on the floor. Damned if I didn't pick up some kind of rash. That might be why no one lives there but I'm still not sure. And for the record I caused no dammage to the house, no broken windows. Was a cool little drunken adventure, but I'm back at my parents house now. Untill next time!
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 9:29 am
I think I have figured out the White House strategy. See we are going to have a nationwide separation of sheep and goats. The goats will be called bad debt. The sheep will be called good debt which in turn will be called saved debt, and at some point healthy debt will be raptured into good old healthy profit and growth. The bad goats of course will continue to sink into the abyss until they burn up. All the plan requires is faith and a return of an economic savior. Might take a little while, maybe 2000 years or more.
Can I just venture slightly OT to express my delight at the continual snarky wit displayed by the first comments on this board - even when they're not products of Nemo? It's like a little dose of "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" every time a new thread begins.
I suspect that Tanta (rest her soul) would be quite pleased.
Nominal GDP is lower today than it was in Q3 2007! Wages have declined too. The "good" news is that our total debt has increased ~ $3 trillion since the end of 2007.
We have to get credit flowing again? Why? Based on the current trends, the additional debt is making us poorer!
Debt and odius debt are not the same. I'm against the ponzi debts which are only sustainable due to the fed's shenanigans and policies of inflation. A few benefit mightily at the expense of the rest.
Total government spending was up 11% Q2 09. Total government spending is 42% of GDP. EX-government spending GDP would have come in at -5.4% which is far more believable.
It's self financing, similar to potential energy. Just get out of the way and let it fall.
The beauty is that the energy wll not be lost, it will be conserved. The houses will still be there along with everything else. Only the privilege from the bezzle and ponzi will be gone.
bloomberg: '“We’re well on our way to a recovery but, inevitably, it’ll be choppy,” Joseph LaVorgna, chief U.S. economist at U.S. Deutsche Bank Securities in New York, said before the report.'
AS - Do you have an updated graph showing that adding $1 extra debt now adds nothing to the GDP ?
interesting times,
No, I don't have a chart. But I would like to slightly correct your statement above. Additional debt is now subtracting from GDP. Negative compounding. Not good.
Just wondering if anyone has reviewed the latest earnings from some of the gold mining companies like Newmont and how the Gold Price has affected their performance.
Here I have an interesting poll for all you bears...what age did you stop believing in Santa Claus? I'll start, I was 4. I just knew I had not been good enough, and was awaiting punishment in my closet from the big magical all knowing man dressed in red. Of course this would be the year my dad tried to dress up as Santa on Christmas Eve, and let's just say I suffered a little case of complete terror and frenzy that resulted in my dad finally ripping off his costume in exasperation and explaining there is no Santa Claus just the spirit of Christmas. See the good ole Baptist guilt had already kicked in by four-- I knew I was guilty, no way Santa could bring me toys, just punishment. The reason I ask, is apparently Wall St. still believes in Santa Claus...trying to find the correlation...between bulls and bears.
It only sort of backs up Krugman's contention. The Keynesian thesis is that government can juice demand - so if this government spending results in gains in, oh, PCE, then the stimulus is having an effect. So far, not so good.
If all that can be demonstrated is that adding in government expenditures to the GDP figure results in a higher GDP when government expenditures increase, I think that validates elementary school math.
I don't know about that comrade Dope
I started reading my horoscope which I figure has better odds of forecasting the future then what I've seen coming out of the BEA lately.
vonbek777
i wAs old 10years old when i stopped with the santa clause stuff but couldnt say anything about not being one because little sister was doing santa clause.
my daughter told me that she had been going along with it for a couple of years because she thought i believed in sAnta. thats a sweet child.
but i always wondered how santa would know where i was on christmas eve,always went to grandma house in nc except when we were in germany.
My cousin made it to 12. I have always had strong empathy and sympathy, so I never spoiled the fun for others...it made me happy to know the spirit was alive in others, even if it was dead in me.
Here's a graphic of outstanding commercial paper: Blytic
I suspect that this contraction is an effective decrease in the money supply, and a lot of government printing and "backstopping" has gone to trying to compensate for this decrease.
Let's just say that when mom and dad's credit card is maxed out, and the silver has already been taken to the pawn shop, Santa has a way of missing your house on Christmas Eve. If Ben is Santa, does that make Rudolf China?
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 10:07 am
Let's just say that when mom and dad's credit card is maxed out, and the silver has already been taken to the pawn shop, Santa has a way of missing your house on Christmas Eve. If Ben is Santa, does that make Rudolf China?
I think that makes the Chinese the "Elves at the North Pole", and if you'll note, elves were thought to be small in stature, and have pointy features, which only serves to extend the analogy
The GDP revision is very "China like" manipulation of numbers. We bury this bad news with other not so bad news. Think the -6.5 number would have moved the markets down a few months ago? Today, not so much.
Fair Economist (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 6:53 am
reply ignore user
EX-government spending GDP would have come in at -5.4% which is far more believable.
Backing up Krugman's contention that government spending has converted a Great Depression into a Great Recession.
"Converted?" Nay, the spendingasm has merely inserted a period of Great Recession before ushering in a Greater Depression. Kicking the can batters the can and doesn't get rid of the can. We could have had a typical sharp deep moderate to long recession. We've traded that for a sharp deep longer recession with anemic recovery and a little time. Hardly a worthwhile exchange.
gabyjan (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 10:12 am
i have question
who would be quickest to pull the rug out from underneath us china or saudia arabia?
There's an old saying: "If you owe the bank a million, the bank owns you; if you owe the bank a trillion, you own the bank."
(updated for inflation and cruel reality)
Nova, I was so waiting for that. Thank you. Insert what ever personal metaphor you would like. Takes me back. Shared a room with a very bright Jewish kid from Miami during a debate camp in Santa Fe one summer during high school. I considered myself pretty smart, at least a little bit wise, but this kid was light years ahead of me in philosophy and law, but he had no understanding of Christianity. I had pretty much lost my faith in organized religion, but I spent half the night trying to explain how a carpenter became the son of God. Kid didn't even know we used parts of the Torah or that Jesus was Jewish. He thought we were all crazy nuts like scientologists. I really couldn't argue the point, kept trying to explain my own personal view was a modification of agnostic. See even if I have a personal relationship with something divine, if you don't, how can I explain or share...religion is personal. His reply, well some Jews believe that gentiles don't have souls, so I can understand that....it was an interesting week to say the least. I have many Jewish friends today, and they all say the kid was a nut. The biggest irony of all was he was obsessed with Madonna. Actually brought posters to put on the wall...
Tinfoil hat? On me? I prefer They-Live-style sunglasses myself.
Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing the data collection but the reporting thereof. Revisions are inevitable and I don't think they're evidence of some conspiracy at the BEA, but an honest press would note the meaning of the revisions instead of merely highlighting the most favorable number.
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 8:56 am
Here I have an interesting poll for all you bears...what age did you stop believing in Santa Claus?
I still believe... the Bearded One is Santa Claus, dispensing coal to the naughty naughty savers and investors, and presents galore to the good looters, gamblers, and over-consuming credit-financed morons.
market will keep going higher despite the fact the economy is in bad shape. Funds just don't seem to care about stuff like job loss and non-existent econ growth.
good articles: Interesting Finance & Economic articles
My bath tub is overflowing and flooding the bathroom.
The amount of water I added 2 minutes ago = the amount of water I added 20 minutes ago.
So how can my tub be filled and now flooding my bathroomnow when it wasnt 20 minutes ago.
That will explain how RI as a % of GDP can be the same for the years you questioned, yet the 2005 amount resulted in a bubble.
Geez 2 threads on the topic pigged before I can get to it, busy wrtting it up for Zacks.com. Here is what I am going to be posting there, warning its pretty long:
Percent Changes by Major Category
In the second quarter GDP fell at an annual rate of 1.0%, better than consensus expectations of a 1.5% drop (and my own expectation of down about 2.0%). However, the first quarter was revised to a decline of 6.4% from a decline of 5.5%. This was a surprise since the previous two revisions had been in the direction of a smaller decline.
Consumption: Negative after being positive
The consumer was actually weaker in the second quarter than in the first, with personal consumption expenditures (PCE) falling 1.2% vs. a rise of 0.6% in the first quarter (org. up 1.4%). The swing in goods particularly durable goods was large, with a decline of 4.0% vs. an increase of 2.5% in the first quarter for all goods and a decline of 7.1% vs. an increase of 3.9% in the first quarter for Durable Goods. Non Durable goods declined 2.5% vs. an increase of 1.9%. Services, which is the biggest part of PCE went the other direction with a gain of 0.1% vs. a 0.3% decline in the first quarter. Since PCE is such a huge part of overall GDP, it is surprising to see a very significant deterioration in it coincide with a substantial improvement (less negative) in overall GDP growth.
Investment: Awful, but not as big a disaster as first Quarter
The main reason for the better performance was that Investment was just very bad, not the unmitigated disaster that was the first quarter. Total Gross Private Domestic Investment (GPDI) fell “only” 20.4% vs. a 50.5% decline in the first quarter (org. 48.9%). GPDI is split into Residential and Non-residential as far as fixed (non inventory) investment is concerned. Fixed investment fell 13.8% following a 39.0% decline in the first quarter. Residential was down 29.3% following a 38.2% decline in the first quarter. In the third quarter that will probably change and we may actually see a small positive. On the Non-Residential (a.k.a. business) side, investment is broken down into Structures and Equipment & Software (E&S). Total business investment was down 8.9% following a 39.2% decline in the first quarter (org. -37.3). Investment in structures declined at only an 8.9% rate following a 43.6% plunge in the first quarter (org -42.9). This was much better than I expected, and I suspect is not sustainable given the massive oversupply of office buildings and stores. Rents and values are falling as vacancies rise. I suspect that we will see a bigger decline in this area in the third quarter. Investment in E&S declined at a 9.0% annualized rate following a 36.4% plunge in the first quarter (org. -33.7%). Investment is always the biggest swing factor in the economy, and while under normal circumstances a 20.4% decline in investment would be awful, coming off the 50.5% decline in the first quarter it feels pretty good. Sort of like the difference between smacking yourself in the head with a wiffle ball bat rather than a baseball bat.
Net Exports: A smaller net positive as both fall less
Net exports were less of a story than they were in the first quarter, but were still a help. Both imports and exports were down, but our imports fell more so that is considered a positive for GDP. Imports fell at an annualize rate of 15.1%, much less than the 36.4% decline in the first quarter. Given the decline in PCE, it does not look like a lot of that represents just a reflection of lower overall demand rather than people substituting domestic goods for imported ones. Thus we are in a sense exporting our downturn to the rest of the world. Not that it is a one way street as our exports fell at 7.0% following a 29.9% decline in the first quarter. Still 7.0% is a lot smaller than 15.1%, and it is from a much smaller base tat our imports. This is not exactly news given the massive decline we have seen in the monthly trade deficit numbers.
Government: Helps rather than hurts, mostly defense
The government was a big help to the economy in the second quarter (one can debate the long term consequences of that, but for the second quarter it sure helped) with an overall increase of 5.6%. It was mostly the Federal government with a 10.9% increase, and most of that went into Defense with a 13.3% increase. Non defense Federal spending rose by an annualized 6.0% rate. This is a marked turnaround from the first quarter when over all government spending fell 2.6% (org. 3.1%). Within that in the first quarter defense spending fell 5.1% and non-defense fell 2.5% in the first quarter. State and Local spending saw a similar, if smaller swing rising 2.4% after a 1.5% fall in the first quarter (org -2.2%). The swing particularly in the S&L and non-defense spending is most likely related to the stimulus bill. That spending is still ramping up so may provide a bigger boost in the second half. On the other hand S&L tax collections have been under enormous pressure and those governments can not do deficit spending (although there are some games that they can play that allow for effectively some S&L deficit spending). Keep in mind that the government figures do not include transfer payments like Social Security of Medicare (they show up in the PCE numbers).
Contributions to Growth (or contraction)
Since not all the elements of GDP are the same size, they don’t have the same impact on overall GDP growth, thus it is useful too look at the point contribution to the -1.0 overall decline in the second quarter and the -6.4% decline in the first quarter. PCE was a big negative swing factor, subtracting 0.88 points (or nearly the entire GDP decline by itself) while in the first quarter, PCE offset other parts of the economy contracting to the tune of 0.44 points. Within PCE more than all of it was in Goods, with overall goods falling subtracting 0.92 points split between a 0.52 drag from durable goods and a 0.40 decline due to non durable goods. In the first quarter goods added 0.56 points to GDP growth, evenly split between 0.28 gains in both durable and non durable goods. PCE on services was a very small offset, adding 0.04 points in the second quarter after being a 0.13 point drag in the first quarter.
The smaller drag from GPDI was by far the biggest reason for the sequential improvement, subtracting “only 2.64” points from growth rather than the 8.98 point drag in the first quarter. Inventory investment (liquidation) was a 0.83 point drag on growth (part of the 2.64) which was a much lower drag than the 2.36 point drag in the first quarter. Generally if GDP is weak, inventory investment is where you would want to see it, as big changes in inventories have a habit of being reversed in future quarters. The subtraction from inventories was almost as big as the subtraction from overall PCE. While the decline in PCE may be welcome from a long term structural point of view (i.e. moving our economy more in the direction of investment and exports, rather than consumerism) it is also more likely to persist than a decline due to inventories. Fixed investment was also still a substantial drag on the economy, subtracting 1.82 points. However it was a huge improvement over the 6.62 point drag in the first quarter.
Residential investment (mostly homebuilding) subtracted 0.88 growth points, down from a 1.33 point subtraction in the first quarter. This was the 14th straight quarter in which residential investment subtracted from economic growth. The 0.88 point drag was just slightly less than the 0.97 average drag over the prior 13 quarters. However, residential investment is getting to be a smaller and smaller part of overall GDP, and it is not going to go to zero. Looking forward we might actually see a small positive from this category in the third and fourth quarters.
Non-Residential Fixed investment was a 0.94 point drag on the economy, but that was a massive improvement over the 5.29 point drag in the first quarter. Investment in equipment and software subtracted 0.59 of those points. Investment in structures subtracted 0.34 points. On both fronts a massive improvement over the 2.28 point drag from structures and the 3.01 point drag from E&S in the first quarter. I suspect that the reduced drag from business investment, particularly in structures is temporary and will be a bigger problem in the third quarter. Unemployment means companies have empty cubicles, so why build more office buildings. There are closed stores all over the place, so why build a new strip mall? Capacity utilization is at a record low by a long shot, so why buy more machinery when the stuff you have is sitting idle. The software side of E&S will probably fare better than the equipment side, since often software can be a cost cutting investment rather than a capacity expansion investment (both can be either, but increased equipment investment is more likely to be about expanding capacity than about cutting costs).
The contribution from Net Exports was a 1.38 point gain, or offset to declines elsewhere in the economy. This happened as our reduced imports added 2.14 growth points but the fall in exports was a 0.76 point drag to overall growth. Both the change in imports and exports were less significant than in the first quarter when plunging imports was a huge offset to the rest of the economy being weak, adding 6.58 points. Think about that for a moment. If our imports had not fallen in the first quarter, or economy would have been plunging at an annualized rate of almost 13.0%. In the first quarter though, the drop in our exports subtracted 3.95 points, so if we had been able to keep our exports up (and held everything else constant) the first quarter decline would have only been -2.45%. Netting them out, trade helped grow (offset the contraction elsewhere) the economy by 2.63 points in the first quarter. Thus, trade was less of an offset (1.38 point positive) in the second quarter than it was in the first quarter by 1.25 points.
Government spending helped boost the economy by 1.12 points, with S&L governments contribution 0.30 points and the federal government adding 0.82 points, of which 0.67 points came from defense spending and only 0.15 points came from non defense spending. In the third and fourth quarters I would expect a much larger contribution from Federal spending, particularly non defense spending as the stimulus package kicks into high gear. This might be offset by S&L weakness as states are forced to cut back, as California is doing in a rather spectacular way. Most other states face similar, but not as large problems.
Overall though this is a very impressive improvement. Just a few months ago it looked like we were in a self sustaining vicious circle of lower demand leading to layoffs and yet further lower demand. Now it looks as if confidence has been restored and the economy is getting its footing. The improvement in net exports is probably sustainable, although I would sure like it more if it were based on exports rising more than imports rather than imports falling more than exports, the arithmetic is the same for the GDP numbers. However, a big part of the improvement in trade in both quarters was lower oil prices. That part is not likely to be repeated. If residential investment is just at 0.0% in the third quarter it will be a big help to the overall GDP numbers. Inventories are likely to swing from being a drag on growth to being a positive for growth, and possibly a very significant one. One area to watch will be the rebuilding of auto inventories. Increases in production at Ford (F), Toyota (TM) and Honda (HMC) as well as at still non-big board traded GM and Chrysler are likely to add to growth. The cash for clunkers was a big success in clearing the lots (so much so it ran out of money almost immediately but is likely to get reloaded). Not that I am expecting auto sales to return to the levels of a few years ago anytime soon, but going from an annual sales rate of just over 9 million a year to 12 million a year is a substantial percentage increase, swinging from being a negative to being a positive for growth.
These are the signs one generally sees in the early stages of an economic recovery. I still think it is going to be a weak recovery and not enough to bring down unemployment anytime soon. To get unemployment to fall we need to generate growth of about 2.0%. However, one can see a path towards an actual positive print on GDP growth in the third quarter. I’m not sure if it will happen, or if we have to wait until the fourth quarter to get that positive number, as I think the drag from non-residential fixed investment, particularly in structures could slip to being a bigger negative in the second half. However, it is a very real possibility.
Why invest when pushing debt is so profitable?
Turn those graphs over and we're all good.
No. This is good. The brakes have been applied. We put on the special gov made ones that cost X trillion. I smell smoke and burning brake pads. We have more in stock right?
Why invest when pushing debt is so profitable?
For the matching Federal dollars?
Argh!!!!!
Take a name asswipe (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 9:19 am
"The US is abusing trade protectionist tools to help its own industries tide over the economic slowdown. The loss for Chinese businesses is huge," said Zhou Xiaoyan, ...
"The US," Wang said, "expects to transfer part of its economic slowdown to China, which is believed to be the quickest to recover."
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-07/31/content_8496823.htm
Lucky for them that their end of the boat isn't sinking
This indicates a lack of CONfidence in the market to me.
Seriously, paper debt generation profits are a sure thing as long as the Fed is there to baliout the fraud.
Expect more shams in the future. The fed is the easy button for financial fraud.
Screw you Bernanke and Paulson. Odious debt creators.
I think the reason non-residenial
investment has "held up" is a structural change in the zoning planning and infrastructure development process. What we see being put in the ground today has likely been in planning and approval for 3 years. Because of the increasingly large upfront government costs and barriers it is sometimes cheapest to go through with unjustified projects than to abandon those sunk costs.
paulson took the money and ran
Sounds like the Chinese are starting to have trouble maintaining a facade consistent with their fake growth numbers, and now are looking for a convenient scapegoat. Which is not to say that we aren't actually to blame...
The phone rings
"Yes Sir?"
"I know. Yes, I know."
He turns to the assembled staff in the command center.
"People. We will not allow the 9000 line to be breached today. Commit the reserves as needed. If neccessary, glod help us, I have been authorized to use tactical nukes.
"Sir. China is on the line."
All right. Who ordered carry out?"
"No sir. It's CHINA."
"Tell them get back to me. I will only take calls from my real estate agent. I need to focus. Oh, and the president."
I think I have figured out the White House strategy. See we are going to have a nationwide separation of sheep and goats. The goats will be called bad debt. The sheep will be called good debt which in turn will be called saved debt, and at some point healthy debt will be raptured into good old healthy profit and growth. The bad goats of course will continue to sink into the abyss until they burn up. All the plan requires is faith and a return of an economic savior. Might take a little while, maybe 2000 years or more.
If the recession is over but the blue, green and red lines keep heading south, will the blue bar be widened?
Stop it nova, I'm trying to be stagdeflated...errr...I mean depressed.
Mish speculating on a positive move by the USD:
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Ewave Count on the US Dollar Suggests Move Up is Coming
Facade War:
China's fortune cookie crumbles as America's chimera ruse allows no bank too big to fail, to lose.
It is the very end of the beginning of downward ascent.
I actually spent the night at the house I was trying to steal, there was no bed in there, I had to use my bookbag as a pillow and sleep on the floor. Damned if I didn't pick up some kind of rash. That might be why no one lives there but I'm still not sure. And for the record I caused no dammage to the house, no broken windows. Was a cool little drunken adventure, but I'm back at my parents house now. Untill next time!
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 9:29 am
I think I have figured out the White House strategy. See we are going to have a nationwide separation of sheep and goats. The goats will be called bad debt. The sheep will be called good debt which in turn will be called saved debt, and at some point healthy debt will be raptured into good old healthy profit and growth. The bad goats of course will continue to sink into the abyss until they burn up. All the plan requires is faith and a return of an economic savior. Might take a little while, maybe 2000 years or more.
Catachresis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Odious debt creators.
So you'd prefer a War On Debt?
If you don't like debt, don't snort it!
Why invest when pushing debt is so profitable?
Can I just venture slightly OT to express my delight at the continual snarky wit displayed by the first comments on this board - even when they're not products of Nemo? It's like a little dose of "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" every time a new thread begins.
I suspect that Tanta (rest her soul) would be quite pleased.
Reality is a harsh mistress Mr. President.
Nominal GDP is lower today than it was in Q3 2007! Wages have declined too. The "good" news is that our total debt has increased ~ $3 trillion since the end of 2007.
We have to get credit flowing again? Why? Based on the current trends, the additional debt is making us poorer!
Thanks wall st. Enjoy your bonuses. Judases.
SIr. I have a great suggestion about the economy.
"Yes, and that is..."
"We get all the major leaders together. GS, China, Somebody from Europe"
"Just make sure they don't send anyone from the UK or Latvia."
"Then we serve them some beers, and sit around and talk. It is suppposed to be a nice day"
"Why we could hammer out the problems!"
"Yes sir."
"If that won't work - we can just get hammered!"
AS - Do you have an updated graph showing that adding $1 extra debt now adds nothing to the GDP ?
Careful about crashing in those Meth Houses.
The total contribution of residential construction 2004-2005 was similar to 1995. [scratches head and squints at graph].
I thought 2002-06 was a massive construction bubble. Was it the duration which mattered, rather than how much was built at peak?
I think GDP will have to be revised to GDD at some point.
I think a lot of people don't have the money obviously to invest into anything now-a-days. The market is so hammered right now. And speaking of real estate investment; forget about it. Debt, debt, debt. I recommend watching this movie: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en&fs=true
Best regard,
Michael Fridman
The “MAN” Experience
So you'd prefer a War On Debt?
If you don't like debt, don't snort it!
Broward,
Debt and odius debt are not the same. I'm against the ponzi debts which are only sustainable due to the fed's shenanigans and policies of inflation. A few benefit mightily at the expense of the rest.
Ponzi debt must end!
Delphi
freep.com | | Detroit Free Press
xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe
broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 9:33 am
Odious debt creators.
So you'd prefer a War On Debt?
How would we finance it!?
bbart, one of my favorite web comics.
Total government spending was up 11% Q2 09. Total government spending is 42% of GDP. EX-government spending GDP would have come in at -5.4% which is far more believable.
Well, Kermit came a little early
@Angry Saver
Ponzi debt must end!
wont happen, not for years and years and years.
i am as pissed about it as you are, but it is what it is.
what i am struggling is: do i throw in the towel, and move abroad?
or is it a case of "the devil you know is better than the devil you dont" ?
this is what keeps me up at night.
Spittle inflected version of this post:
GDP: Uuuuggghhhh - UPDATED - The Market Ticker
How would we finance it!?
Broward,
It's self financing, similar to potential energy. Just get out of the way and let it fall.
The beauty is that the energy wll not be lost, it will be conserved. The houses will still be there along with everything else. Only the privilege from the bezzle and ponzi will be gone.
bloomberg: '“We’re well on our way to a recovery but, inevitably, it’ll be choppy,” Joseph LaVorgna, chief U.S. economist at U.S. Deutsche Bank Securities in New York, said before the report.'
we are clearly on our way to recovery. hahaha!
AS - Do you have an updated graph showing that adding $1 extra debt now adds nothing to the GDP ?
interesting times,
No, I don't have a chart. But I would like to slightly correct your statement above. Additional debt is now subtracting from GDP. Negative compounding. Not good.
Just wondering if anyone has reviewed the latest earnings from some of the gold mining companies like Newmont and how the Gold Price has affected their performance.
EX-government spending GDP would have come in at -5.4% which is far more believable.
Backing up Krugman's contention that government spending has converted a Great Depression into a Great Recession.
Here I have an interesting poll for all you bears...what age did you stop believing in Santa Claus? I'll start, I was 4. I just knew I had not been good enough, and was awaiting punishment in my closet from the big magical all knowing man dressed in red. Of course this would be the year my dad tried to dress up as Santa on Christmas Eve, and let's just say I suffered a little case of complete terror and frenzy that resulted in my dad finally ripping off his costume in exasperation and explaining there is no Santa Claus just the spirit of Christmas. See the good ole Baptist guilt had already kicked in by four-- I knew I was guilty, no way Santa could bring me toys, just punishment. The reason I ask, is apparently Wall St. still believes in Santa Claus...trying to find the correlation...between bulls and bears.
Lots of wisdom and insight and clear vision amongst folks, here.
There is yet hope for this country.
It only sort of backs up Krugman's contention. The Keynesian thesis is that government can juice demand - so if this government spending results in gains in, oh, PCE, then the stimulus is having an effect. So far, not so good.
If all that can be demonstrated is that adding in government expenditures to the GDP figure results in a higher GDP when government expenditures increase, I think that validates elementary school math.
I don't know about that comrade Dope
I started reading my horoscope which I figure has better odds of forecasting the future then what I've seen coming out of the BEA lately.
oh well, off to the salt mines
vonbek777
i wAs old 10years old when i stopped with the santa clause stuff but couldnt say anything about not being one because little sister was doing santa clause.
my daughter told me that she had been going along with it for a couple of years because she thought i believed in sAnta. thats a sweet child.
but i always wondered how santa would know where i was on christmas eve,always went to grandma house in nc except when we were in germany.
Backing up Krugman's contention that government spending has converted a Great Depression into a Great Recession.
F.E.,
Good to see you again! I miss your insights.
Anyway, the jury is still out. It may well end up being a Great Recession on Wall St. and a long slow drawn out depression on Main St.
Real private wages are falling against a back-drop of structurally high unemployment and a mountain of household debt.
Nice graphic, even if a little outdated (by a couple of months). The overall trend is frightening:
Blytic
Here's another scary one:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ym8Q9yxUg34/SnISxag2fTI/AAAAAAAALPU/0zGKNE11RQo/s1600-h/GB073009.jpg
My cousin made it to 12. I have always had strong empathy and sympathy, so I never spoiled the fun for others...it made me happy to know the spirit was alive in others, even if it was dead in me.
"Here I have an interesting poll for all you bears...what age did you stop believing in Santa Claus?"
Your saying there is no Ben Bernanke to bring gifts of a fed window to all the good big bank hedge funds?
Here's a graphic of outstanding commercial paper:
Blytic
I suspect that this contraction is an effective decrease in the money supply, and a lot of government printing and "backstopping" has gone to trying to compensate for this decrease.
So 2Q GDP is worse than expected but the quarterly change appears narrower because of a sharp downward revision of the beginning-of-quarter baseline?
Let's just say that when mom and dad's credit card is maxed out, and the silver has already been taken to the pawn shop, Santa has a way of missing your house on Christmas Eve. If Ben is Santa, does that make Rudolf China?
What if you are Jewish? Or, like myself, a Kwanza child.
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 10:07 am
Let's just say that when mom and dad's credit card is maxed out, and the silver has already been taken to the pawn shop, Santa has a way of missing your house on Christmas Eve. If Ben is Santa, does that make Rudolf China?
I think that makes the Chinese the "Elves at the North Pole", and if you'll note, elves were thought to be small in stature, and have pointy features, which only serves to extend the analogy
The GDP revision is very "China like" manipulation of numbers. We bury this bad news with other not so bad news. Think the -6.5 number would have moved the markets down a few months ago? Today, not so much.
Then "No soup for you"
i have question
who would be quickest to pull the rug out from underneath us china or saudia arabia?
Everybody knows that Santa Claus is Odin riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir.
Fair Economist (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 6:53 am
reply ignore user
EX-government spending GDP would have come in at -5.4% which is far more believable.
Backing up Krugman's contention that government spending has converted a Great Depression into a Great Recession.
"Converted?" Nay, the spendingasm has merely inserted a period of Great Recession before ushering in a Greater Depression. Kicking the can batters the can and doesn't get rid of the can. We could have had a typical sharp deep moderate to long recession. We've traded that for a sharp deep longer recession with anemic recovery and a little time. Hardly a worthwhile exchange.
gabyjan (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 10:12 am
i have question
who would be quickest to pull the rug out from underneath us china or saudia arabia?
There's an old saying: "If you owe the bank a million, the bank owns you; if you owe the bank a trillion, you own the bank."
(updated for inflation and cruel reality)
Yalt, that
doesn't look good on you. It's a
. Move along, nothing to see here.
"......was a cool little drunken adventure, but I'm back at my parents house now. Untill next time!"
......this makes it all so much clearer........
"who would be quickest to pull the rug out from underneath us china or saudia arabia?"
No, Japan. Oil at 30 or Dollar at 50% off hurts China and Saudi as much as is does the USA.
Nova, I was so waiting for that. Thank you. Insert what ever personal metaphor you would like. Takes me back. Shared a room with a very bright Jewish kid from Miami during a debate camp in Santa Fe one summer during high school. I considered myself pretty smart, at least a little bit wise, but this kid was light years ahead of me in philosophy and law, but he had no understanding of Christianity. I had pretty much lost my faith in organized religion, but I spent half the night trying to explain how a carpenter became the son of God. Kid didn't even know we used parts of the Torah or that Jesus was Jewish. He thought we were all crazy nuts like scientologists. I really couldn't argue the point, kept trying to explain my own personal view was a modification of agnostic. See even if I have a personal relationship with something divine, if you don't, how can I explain or share...religion is personal. His reply, well some Jews believe that gentiles don't have souls, so I can understand that....it was an interesting week to say the least. I have many Jewish friends today, and they all say the kid was a nut. The biggest irony of all was he was obsessed with Madonna. Actually brought posters to put on the wall...
Tinfoil hat? On me? I prefer They-Live-style sunglasses myself.
Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing the data collection but the reporting thereof. Revisions are inevitable and I don't think they're evidence of some conspiracy at the BEA, but an honest press would note the meaning of the revisions instead of merely highlighting the most favorable number.
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/31/2009 - 8:56 am
Here I have an interesting poll for all you bears...what age did you stop believing in Santa Claus?
I still believe... the Bearded One is Santa Claus, dispensing coal to the naughty naughty savers and investors, and presents galore to the good looters, gamblers, and over-consuming credit-financed morons.
Yalt-
Certainly a legitimate question. Tin-foliey? Not at all. Pay no attention to that. I had the exact same question to myself when I read it.
Ciao
MS
market will keep going higher despite the fact the economy is in bad shape. Funds just don't seem to care about stuff like job loss and non-existent econ growth.
good articles: Interesting Finance & Economic articles
To Some Investor Guy:
My bath tub is overflowing and flooding the bathroom.
The amount of water I added 2 minutes ago = the amount of water I added 20 minutes ago.
So how can my tub be filled and now flooding my bathroomnow when it wasnt 20 minutes ago.
That will explain how RI as a % of GDP can be the same for the years you questioned, yet the 2005 amount resulted in a bubble.
when business investment turns is critical to whether this is a lasting recovery or another bubble to be burst. econmkts.blogspot.com
Geez 2 threads on the topic pigged before I can get to it, busy wrtting it up for Zacks.com. Here is what I am going to be posting there, warning its pretty long:
Percent Changes by Major Category
In the second quarter GDP fell at an annual rate of 1.0%, better than consensus expectations of a 1.5% drop (and my own expectation of down about 2.0%). However, the first quarter was revised to a decline of 6.4% from a decline of 5.5%. This was a surprise since the previous two revisions had been in the direction of a smaller decline.
Consumption: Negative after being positive
The consumer was actually weaker in the second quarter than in the first, with personal consumption expenditures (PCE) falling 1.2% vs. a rise of 0.6% in the first quarter (org. up 1.4%). The swing in goods particularly durable goods was large, with a decline of 4.0% vs. an increase of 2.5% in the first quarter for all goods and a decline of 7.1% vs. an increase of 3.9% in the first quarter for Durable Goods. Non Durable goods declined 2.5% vs. an increase of 1.9%. Services, which is the biggest part of PCE went the other direction with a gain of 0.1% vs. a 0.3% decline in the first quarter. Since PCE is such a huge part of overall GDP, it is surprising to see a very significant deterioration in it coincide with a substantial improvement (less negative) in overall GDP growth.
Investment: Awful, but not as big a disaster as first Quarter
The main reason for the better performance was that Investment was just very bad, not the unmitigated disaster that was the first quarter. Total Gross Private Domestic Investment (GPDI) fell “only” 20.4% vs. a 50.5% decline in the first quarter (org. 48.9%). GPDI is split into Residential and Non-residential as far as fixed (non inventory) investment is concerned. Fixed investment fell 13.8% following a 39.0% decline in the first quarter. Residential was down 29.3% following a 38.2% decline in the first quarter. In the third quarter that will probably change and we may actually see a small positive. On the Non-Residential (a.k.a. business) side, investment is broken down into Structures and Equipment & Software (E&S). Total business investment was down 8.9% following a 39.2% decline in the first quarter (org. -37.3). Investment in structures declined at only an 8.9% rate following a 43.6% plunge in the first quarter (org -42.9). This was much better than I expected, and I suspect is not sustainable given the massive oversupply of office buildings and stores. Rents and values are falling as vacancies rise. I suspect that we will see a bigger decline in this area in the third quarter. Investment in E&S declined at a 9.0% annualized rate following a 36.4% plunge in the first quarter (org. -33.7%). Investment is always the biggest swing factor in the economy, and while under normal circumstances a 20.4% decline in investment would be awful, coming off the 50.5% decline in the first quarter it feels pretty good. Sort of like the difference between smacking yourself in the head with a wiffle ball bat rather than a baseball bat.
Net Exports: A smaller net positive as both fall less
Net exports were less of a story than they were in the first quarter, but were still a help. Both imports and exports were down, but our imports fell more so that is considered a positive for GDP. Imports fell at an annualize rate of 15.1%, much less than the 36.4% decline in the first quarter. Given the decline in PCE, it does not look like a lot of that represents just a reflection of lower overall demand rather than people substituting domestic goods for imported ones. Thus we are in a sense exporting our downturn to the rest of the world. Not that it is a one way street as our exports fell at 7.0% following a 29.9% decline in the first quarter. Still 7.0% is a lot smaller than 15.1%, and it is from a much smaller base tat our imports. This is not exactly news given the massive decline we have seen in the monthly trade deficit numbers.
Government: Helps rather than hurts, mostly defense
The government was a big help to the economy in the second quarter (one can debate the long term consequences of that, but for the second quarter it sure helped) with an overall increase of 5.6%. It was mostly the Federal government with a 10.9% increase, and most of that went into Defense with a 13.3% increase. Non defense Federal spending rose by an annualized 6.0% rate. This is a marked turnaround from the first quarter when over all government spending fell 2.6% (org. 3.1%). Within that in the first quarter defense spending fell 5.1% and non-defense fell 2.5% in the first quarter. State and Local spending saw a similar, if smaller swing rising 2.4% after a 1.5% fall in the first quarter (org -2.2%). The swing particularly in the S&L and non-defense spending is most likely related to the stimulus bill. That spending is still ramping up so may provide a bigger boost in the second half. On the other hand S&L tax collections have been under enormous pressure and those governments can not do deficit spending (although there are some games that they can play that allow for effectively some S&L deficit spending). Keep in mind that the government figures do not include transfer payments like Social Security of Medicare (they show up in the PCE numbers).
Contributions to Growth (or contraction)
Since not all the elements of GDP are the same size, they don’t have the same impact on overall GDP growth, thus it is useful too look at the point contribution to the -1.0 overall decline in the second quarter and the -6.4% decline in the first quarter. PCE was a big negative swing factor, subtracting 0.88 points (or nearly the entire GDP decline by itself) while in the first quarter, PCE offset other parts of the economy contracting to the tune of 0.44 points. Within PCE more than all of it was in Goods, with overall goods falling subtracting 0.92 points split between a 0.52 drag from durable goods and a 0.40 decline due to non durable goods. In the first quarter goods added 0.56 points to GDP growth, evenly split between 0.28 gains in both durable and non durable goods. PCE on services was a very small offset, adding 0.04 points in the second quarter after being a 0.13 point drag in the first quarter.
The smaller drag from GPDI was by far the biggest reason for the sequential improvement, subtracting “only 2.64” points from growth rather than the 8.98 point drag in the first quarter. Inventory investment (liquidation) was a 0.83 point drag on growth (part of the 2.64) which was a much lower drag than the 2.36 point drag in the first quarter. Generally if GDP is weak, inventory investment is where you would want to see it, as big changes in inventories have a habit of being reversed in future quarters. The subtraction from inventories was almost as big as the subtraction from overall PCE. While the decline in PCE may be welcome from a long term structural point of view (i.e. moving our economy more in the direction of investment and exports, rather than consumerism) it is also more likely to persist than a decline due to inventories. Fixed investment was also still a substantial drag on the economy, subtracting 1.82 points. However it was a huge improvement over the 6.62 point drag in the first quarter.
Residential investment (mostly homebuilding) subtracted 0.88 growth points, down from a 1.33 point subtraction in the first quarter. This was the 14th straight quarter in which residential investment subtracted from economic growth. The 0.88 point drag was just slightly less than the 0.97 average drag over the prior 13 quarters. However, residential investment is getting to be a smaller and smaller part of overall GDP, and it is not going to go to zero. Looking forward we might actually see a small positive from this category in the third and fourth quarters.
Non-Residential Fixed investment was a 0.94 point drag on the economy, but that was a massive improvement over the 5.29 point drag in the first quarter. Investment in equipment and software subtracted 0.59 of those points. Investment in structures subtracted 0.34 points. On both fronts a massive improvement over the 2.28 point drag from structures and the 3.01 point drag from E&S in the first quarter. I suspect that the reduced drag from business investment, particularly in structures is temporary and will be a bigger problem in the third quarter. Unemployment means companies have empty cubicles, so why build more office buildings. There are closed stores all over the place, so why build a new strip mall? Capacity utilization is at a record low by a long shot, so why buy more machinery when the stuff you have is sitting idle. The software side of E&S will probably fare better than the equipment side, since often software can be a cost cutting investment rather than a capacity expansion investment (both can be either, but increased equipment investment is more likely to be about expanding capacity than about cutting costs).
The contribution from Net Exports was a 1.38 point gain, or offset to declines elsewhere in the economy. This happened as our reduced imports added 2.14 growth points but the fall in exports was a 0.76 point drag to overall growth. Both the change in imports and exports were less significant than in the first quarter when plunging imports was a huge offset to the rest of the economy being weak, adding 6.58 points. Think about that for a moment. If our imports had not fallen in the first quarter, or economy would have been plunging at an annualized rate of almost 13.0%. In the first quarter though, the drop in our exports subtracted 3.95 points, so if we had been able to keep our exports up (and held everything else constant) the first quarter decline would have only been -2.45%. Netting them out, trade helped grow (offset the contraction elsewhere) the economy by 2.63 points in the first quarter. Thus, trade was less of an offset (1.38 point positive) in the second quarter than it was in the first quarter by 1.25 points.
Government spending helped boost the economy by 1.12 points, with S&L governments contribution 0.30 points and the federal government adding 0.82 points, of which 0.67 points came from defense spending and only 0.15 points came from non defense spending. In the third and fourth quarters I would expect a much larger contribution from Federal spending, particularly non defense spending as the stimulus package kicks into high gear. This might be offset by S&L weakness as states are forced to cut back, as California is doing in a rather spectacular way. Most other states face similar, but not as large problems.
Overall though this is a very impressive improvement. Just a few months ago it looked like we were in a self sustaining vicious circle of lower demand leading to layoffs and yet further lower demand. Now it looks as if confidence has been restored and the economy is getting its footing. The improvement in net exports is probably sustainable, although I would sure like it more if it were based on exports rising more than imports rather than imports falling more than exports, the arithmetic is the same for the GDP numbers. However, a big part of the improvement in trade in both quarters was lower oil prices. That part is not likely to be repeated. If residential investment is just at 0.0% in the third quarter it will be a big help to the overall GDP numbers. Inventories are likely to swing from being a drag on growth to being a positive for growth, and possibly a very significant one. One area to watch will be the rebuilding of auto inventories. Increases in production at Ford (F), Toyota (TM) and Honda (HMC) as well as at still non-big board traded GM and Chrysler are likely to add to growth. The cash for clunkers was a big success in clearing the lots (so much so it ran out of money almost immediately but is likely to get reloaded). Not that I am expecting auto sales to return to the levels of a few years ago anytime soon, but going from an annual sales rate of just over 9 million a year to 12 million a year is a substantial percentage increase, swinging from being a negative to being a positive for growth.
These are the signs one generally sees in the early stages of an economic recovery. I still think it is going to be a weak recovery and not enough to bring down unemployment anytime soon. To get unemployment to fall we need to generate growth of about 2.0%. However, one can see a path towards an actual positive print on GDP growth in the third quarter. I’m not sure if it will happen, or if we have to wait until the fourth quarter to get that positive number, as I think the drag from non-residential fixed investment, particularly in structures could slip to being a bigger negative in the second half. However, it is a very real possibility.