lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 5:53 pm edit reply The hub was briefly furloughed during the Clinton administration budget ruckus.

He got repaid. I think he worked anyway, but maybe he was just told not to come
in and he worked at home? Anyway, he did get the money.

And so, I would work a week or 2. But that would be it.

No pay, no work.

Why would the bond holders throw good money after bad?

CTI looks like it is unsalvagable. So why pull them out of the fire?

OT: Walter Cronkite and the media (Salon article)

Concur that's a great read (if a bit overblown on the quality of the reporters of old).

One more quick example of the degraded state of media coverage in the US is in this display of Newsweek covers from the US vs. international editions. Yep, we can't handle the truth.

It's dilution in the sense that bondholder-bagholders are putting up more money for their losing investment. They are voluntarily diluting themselves.

"Yep, we can't handle the truth."

Or just don't care. That will change.

DCRogers I usually read several online papers that are not US based. They don't use the sugar coating we get here. The content is more news and less point of view.

I don't care if they waste their own money, but I suspect
they are somehow wasting mine.

The invisible guarantor. That would be us somehow is what I am expecting.

I gambled on Friday and bought CIT at .70... This might just work out!

it's basically a private loan modification in lieu of what the BK courts would have done. this is exactly why Bill Gross was clamoring about getting underneath the government umbrella, because businesses are about to engage in a round of "efficient breaches," especially now that GM has taken the stigma off of BK.

wouldn't mind Bill Gross getting his comeuppance, but not at the sake of Jamie Dimon and Lord Blankfein, and not if the taxpayers are going to pick up the Bond King's pension investment losses.

c'est la vie.

Bloomie is covering it, just as a placeholder, citing the Journal They're listing the journalist in case of contacts. One could be tempted to call and ask what exactly he gets paid for other than reading wsj online.

C

So they are going start lending at 2007 levels again! Yeah! Disaster averted!

The bondholders are probably playing with other peoples money and want to extend and pretend so they don't have to book mega losses this quarter.

Howls of derisive laughter.

Sold enough CDS to finance the bailout!!

I love it, use the doubters to prop up the mess, and fix it eventually to make a profit.

As I predicted.

Anybody wanna bet a deal is being cut to push the student loan mess to sallie mae?

Someday this war's gonna end...

Somebody mentioned the stock market. After 12 minutes of trading, the Dow is 9 points lower and S &P's are one and a half points lower(1.50). Nothing is happening. Lotsa traders on vacation. I wish I were in Maine, too.

DCRogers (profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 5:59 pm

One more quick example of the degraded state of media coverage in the US is in this display of Newsweek covers from the US vs. international editions. Yep, we can't handle the truth.

Can't risk the attack from Brand Elefunt fanatics that you aren't patriotic enough. In the future, all pictures of American defeats will be replaced with paens to Obama's leadership prowess, and pictures of Sarah Palin shaking her ass.

actually, MGIC's restructuring will probably work, at least for the newly capitalized subsidiary with the virgin balance sheet. however, the rest of the subs are transitioning into run-out mode, and the losses are not going to be pretty. that's why corporate lawyers are paid the big bucks.

But will they make any new loans???

Gee, it couldn't possibly be a ticker headline without substance just when the futures market opens, could it?

C

Black Star, do you have an opinion on Mountain Falls?

I think it's pretty close to you... They were advertising in today's LATimes 2 to 5 BRs "prices from the mid-$100Ks".
And can they keep those lakes full of water?

Well MrM, looks like our DIP discussion was pointless after all.

I dunno JP, no real confirmation yet and it's been a while since WSJ posted that breaking news. Where are the details? Somebody must be stalling...

Sounds like Pimco made a deal that salvaged it's stake (in a dying company-that's still the most relevant point) instead of GS and JPM. Not one of the three 'tutes should have the ability to milk money off of an obviously failed business however it appears, this time, that the likes of GS and JPM are getting what they deserve...an actual loss. Go figure.

I hate Bill Gross too but in this situation I'd rather see him come out as opposed to the giant soul-sucking squids.

That is....if any of this is too believed.....sort of cute that it surfaces just as the futures market gets started for overseas. But I did say, last friday that we would be getting "happy news" around 6pm EST on Sunday.

Here it is..

Ciao
MS

MrM, they will stall until there is another news story for people to focus on. Sometime Monday morning probably. Who needs the details, CTI is saved, business is saved, the market is saved and on and on it goes.

Hummm, Ridgeback, if you were in Miami, you'd sublease it and
keep the money until the foreclosure is done!!!

MS-good call...what a casino...

Ridgeback- put it on craigslist cheap as a squat until the foreclosure takes.
Actually, that is most likely what the owner is doing.

Recover some cash quick that way, plus avoid the waste provisions.

Otherwise, leaving the place unlocked bad mojo, even in snotsdale.

Someday this war's gonna end...

sm_landlord - Mountain Falls, where the clouds blow right or left depending on whether they're above or below the banner headline...

I wouldn't trust a place that has capricious clouds.

(Seriously, it's on the homepage you posted).

C

AllenM we were channeling!

Nuke-

postpone talks till tomorrow...

Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found

"I wouldn't trust a place that has capricious clouds."

Don't you hate badly done Flash websites? They must have paid all of $500 for that POS.
Did you see the cute little golf ball roll into the cup? And the wanky water animation?

Darn. I was hoping that CIT would be eaten by Citi. Brands made for each other! And the same honest biz ethics too.

Re CA: The leaders are trying to bridge remaining pitfalls that include how much money to borrow from local governments,

They are going to borrow from the local governments? I know SD is broke.... I just figured most of the others are too.... Odd...

Cali budget talks

//The leaders are trying to bridge remaining pitfalls that include how much money to borrow from local governments, whether to guarantee that schools will be repaid money they lose during poor economic times and how much money to save for future budget emergencies//

Don't the local gov have to agree to lend? Do they have anything to lend?

Repay schools, strange idea.

And save what??? They can't pay day to day bills, there is nothing to save.

josap (profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 6:40 pm

And save what??? They can't pay day to day bills, there is nothing to save.

Der Fuhrer is planning even-greater wonder weapons with which to save the Reich.

Do not ask questions, merely take your place in Army Group Steiner and ready yourself for the jump-off signal of "Operation Velvet Fist".

Don't the local gov have to agree to lend? Do they have anything to lend?

No, and doesn't matter. The state simply keeps the local's share after collecting it. The law let's them do it, as long as they pay it back w/interest within 3 years.

Nuke (profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 3:32 pm

Rob Dawg:
Any word on the budget talks? Last I heard, they were stuck on education funding. I have a feeling that the rest of the country is more interested in the saga than most Cali residences. I for one want to see what a state default is like so I know what to expect in NYS in a couple years.

Education seems unstuck. The only things left are the accounting tricks. For instance; 30-30-20-20 withholding is going to be a disaster. Anecdotally we'll personally be hitting our deductions real hard when that passes. normally we skate along and get a modest refund to occasional big refund but this year since we have to change anyway we'll be decreasing withholding to the minimum that avoids penalty. We won't be alone. Worse, since withholding is for calendar years offset from budget years by six months we probably have withheld 3/4ths of our total necessary for calendar year 2009 thus we can really massively decrease withholding and still come out clean.

Problem is the budget they are discussing tonight still spends more than revenues can support and someone, likely the Jarvis Foundation is going to call them on it.

BSR - ROTFLMAO!

Thank the divines that the dodgy website didn't come with scratch n sniff too...

C

"is"

Thanks, Black Star. I figured there were a few fishy details when I saw all that water out there...

"What idiot, group of idiots would agree to that? Or did the state legi pass it without reading it? Of are they just all high?"

Perhaps they hold letters from their physicians.

josap,

Yeah, I'm serious. Dawg can verify.

One alternative is the lenders promise to buy back any delinquent loans. Unlikely to happen.

Is that like the old "push back" promise with the major mortgage brokers; you know, all the ones that no longer existed when it came time to push'em back?

"Is that like the old "push back" promise with the major mortgage brokers; you know, all the ones that no longer existed when it came time to push'em back?"

Yeah, which is why neither side likes it - the GSEs might not have someone to collect from, the lenders have to set aside reserves in case the buybacks come, but they don't know if it will happen.

Tim-

They need a helluva lot more than that IMO. But this is just another tool to allow the market to celebrate....in a sense that we've allowed a self-policing system to bloat itself beyond any logical repair while it take's any and all working capital to keep it from actually failing. OF course the market should celebrate that......

At this point I wish I held those shares from friday but I'm guessing that the reality, come tomorrow morning, will be a little bit different.

Ciao
MS

"I used to think we were serfs, with some constant value, even just as warm working bodies. Now I tend to think we're livestock. And most livestock at some point are worth more dead than alive."

That sounds really demoralized. What's with us?

In a bankruptcy, lots of non-marketable toxic waste would probably wind up at auction, which would be bad for others holding the same instruments, when the lack of value was exposed.

I suspect today's events are just part of the systematic hiding of insolvency. It is worth more than $3B for some people somewhere to extend and pretend. A couple of phone calls later, the bondholders here agree to take one for the team. The pro quo part will come later. Probably taxpayer financed.

What matters right now is cash flow, not balance sheets.

Taken from exurban nation:

California spent 70 percent more per capita than the rest of the country on social services in 2002, the last year such figures were available from the U.S. Census Bureau, according to a 2007 study by the Public Policy Institute of California.

Only New York spent more per capita -- California spends less on average per welfare recipient because the wider distribution of benefits means they are spread more thinly.

California's needy may bear brunt of budget crisis
| Reuters

NYS's generous welfare state is made possible by Wall Street. Having forced most productive business from upstate through a combination of high taxes and onerous regulations, NYS is entirely dependent on Goldman Sachs, et al, to fund its enormous state edifice. Luckily, the feds seem to have guaranteed the charade can go on a little longer.

If you ever go to Albany, visit the Empire Plaza. It is a set of monolithic state office towers that dominate the skyline, with a suitably totalitarian "park" comprised of concrete and brick. It would seem more at home in 1970's Bulgaria than in upstate NY. Longer term, we will be following Cali into the dark. By then, I should be elsewhere.

"Just pondering what use we the sheeple have nowadays...."

Geeze.......Joanna, lighten up! It's time to "redirect", girl! The center of my universe is my family. Yours should be too. What happens outside of that doesn't really matter. We as a family are as fine as frog hair & nothing will change that. As far as anyone else though - its kinda like sweat dripping off my ass-end - I don't give it much thought.

frogs have hair?

As fine as frog's hair?

I will never understand this country.

C

" As fine as frog's hair?"

Don't you see? The ultimate in fineness. It's not zoology, it's hyperbole.

TAKE THE MARKET ON THAT CIT RESTRUCTURE!!!

KERMIT SHOOTS EVERYWHERE!!!! PONIES FOR EVERYONE!

"Why cling to "union" when it isn't really profiting anyone... "

I wouldn't say that.

More and more bailouts of losers like CIT will only accelerate the challenge of dollar’s role as the world’s main reserve currency
Yuan small step....
Premium content | Economist.com

CTI got a pony, the rest of us get the crap. We just need a bigger shovel everyday.

Somehow they are going to take that 3B out of our pockets. I just know it. I am going to do my best to have my pocket as empty as possible this year.

Speaking of markets:

Did anyone else notice that the Justice Department is investigating Markit Group Holdings?
Markit is a data aggregator for credit default swaps. It controls a large amount of pricing information for the $26 trillion market.

Guess who owns it?

J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Credit Suisse Group, Citigroup Inc., Deutsche Bank AG, Bank of America Corp., Barclays PLC, UBS AG, Morgan Stanley, HSBC Holdings PLC and others.

Link

.....and you think you have it bad.............imagine if there were thirteen of you partying, the bathroom toilet stops working, and you can't just go outside and use the closest bush ......

"Toilet breaks down on crowded international space station"...........totally new concept to the term, "Can't you just hold it"?

Toilet breaks down on crowded international space station - thestar.com

Joanna

We little people can keep our little lives quite happy, even in this enviroment.

Have a pot luck Sunday meal with friends. Watch a movie with the kids. One of the best parts about being who we are is the freedom (by being little) to have pleasure in our personal lives. We don't have to care who gets what or who takes what from whom. Just keep your eye in your own yard and things will be fine.

Yes it is normal, if you are a smart little person, to look at the big picture. To prepare for what the big picture means in your own back yard. But beyond that, there is nothing you can do to effect things. So do your best for your family. Let the big guys take the big hits and hard landings.

sm-

at this point nothing surprises me....that should have but it doesn't.

CR-

"Anyone think the board will reject it?"

We know nothing about it but if it protects the interest of the board, preferred shares bondholder's etc. AND screws common equity then I'm sure they'll be all for it.

Ciao
MS

Somehow they are going to take that 3B out of our pockets. I just know it.

Exactly.

Big storm coming up; have to turn off computer.

I say, denial, boy....
I say, i say denial is no way to go through life, son!

We little people can keep our little lives quite happy, even in this enviroment.

Back in the mid 90s the conservative party in Canada under Brian Mulroney was the majority party.  He stepped down and an election was called soon after.  The conservatives went from roughly 250 seats in congress to a single seat.  They got such a small percentage of the vote that they were no longer legally recognized as a political party.  The day before they were the majority party.

As a little person in the US just vote the current power out if office like above and you will strike terror into every politician and force real change.

If this can happen in Canada I'm flabbergasted why it isn't happening here.

Citizen AllenM (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 7:08 pm

Now, why are you so angry?

I have an upset tummy, and it's making me snappish.

Something about your latest choices looks like something Eric Hobsbawm would write.

Never read him, wouldn't know.

POIC: Canadians had at least three other political parties to choose from. Americans are given a choice of (a) brand Jackass or (b) brand Dumbo.

Byz - I suggest you don't read Hobsbawm. Your gastric issues would be compounded by grinding your teeth to a chalky mush.

C

Thanks for the feedback ... particularly josap ... I'll get the owner's address and mail the keys certified mail as you suggested. Nades, I was moving to a new job in DC, which why I didn't stay. I may could mail a copy of the key back to a friend in the area first so that he can go over and lock the door for me since I'm out of the area now. I want nothing to do with the place, and I certainly don't want any liability, I was just a freakin' renter.

But he has had some great points as wiki shows:
Speaking of the future himself, he largely confines himself to predicting continued turmoil: "The world of the third millennium will therefore almost certainly continue to be one of violent politics and violent political changes. The only thing uncertain about them is where they will lead," and expressing the view that "If humanity is to have a recognizable future, it cannot be by prolonging the past or the present."

In one of his few more concrete predictions, he writes that "Social distribution and not growth would dominate the politics of the new millennium."
from The Age of Extremes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cranky marxist, but sometimes right.

Kinda funny if you think about it.

But the big marxist dialectic obscures some really good analysis.

Dahrendorf was much better and clearer.

Someday this war's gonna end...

AllenM, if you have a sec, what is the "waste" provision to which you referred above?

he writes that "Social distribution and not growth would dominate the politics of the new millennium."

Interesting, I missed that.
I have to admit, I saw the word "marxist" and tuned out.

Rhode,
the statute in Arizona has a provisions for foreclosures that allows recovery if the owner commits waste- usually construed to be abandonment/deliberate trashing in spite of the nonrecourse statute for sfr's.

worry for the soon to be former owner- mail the keys back and get clear.

Someday this war's gonna end...

10 percentage points above the London interbank offered rate

Step to the front of the line most favored debtors.

I bet this is all just part of making it easier for regulators to make some concessions to CIT from a PR perspective.

"Social distribution and not growth would dominate the politics of the new millennium."

And there was a famous book of years ago called Looking Backward.

CIT is paying rates higher than it would have with DIP financing. loses out on the choicest assets. this is basically a BK without the haircuts. not sure why CIT would go for this over the Chapter 11. perhaps, somebody was long on CIT CDS

Rob Dawg (homepage, profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 4:47 pm
reply ignore user
10 percentage points above the London interbank offered rate
Step to the front of the line most favored debtors.

Now I understand why the pimp king is agreeing to this.

Our TARP "investment" lives to see another day... LOL

And this from the FT"s article on the CIT shenanigans:

" CIT’s creditors stepped in after it became clear that the government was not willing to provide any emergency assistance, whether in guaranteeing CIT’s debt, or in accepting assets in exchange for cash from the Federal Reserve or in allowing CIT to transfer more assets into the bank holding company it set up at the end of December.

The probable rescue financing will come as a relief to the government – had CIT filed for bankruptcy protection, the Treasury would likely have lost the $2.3bn of bailout funds CIT received late last year."

Here's the link:

FT.com / Companies / Banks - CIT board approves $3bn rescue package

broward: that's because Libertarianism is a purist doctrine practiced by real people. As such, their POV is skewed toward their agenda. Libertarianism, for them, is the 'way to go' unless and until it gores their ox.

Counter found another green shoot!

Or perhaps it's more like a seed since it's being planted in the ground.

The CIT Board has to approve the deal. The terms might be punishing, but still better than the wipe-out in BK. They can only complain that the government did not give them a sweeter deal.

From the same WSJ article
At least one analyst viewed the deal as a stopgap measure. "Even if they put together a deal today and postpone a bankruptcy filing, CIT may be back in the same place in the not-too-distant future because unemployment rates, business-loan delinquencies and corporate default rates are climbing," said Martin Weiss, president of Weiss Research, an investment consulting firm in Jupiter, Fla. "The outlook for the next six months looks pretty rough for many banks, including CIT," he said.

From FT:
Jeff Peek, CIT’s chief executive who led negotiations with creditors, was likely to stay on following the financing, people close to the situation said. The management has been criticised for diversifying into high-risk businesses such as subprime lending and student loans and relying on capital markets to fund CIT’s balance sheet.

Citizen AllenM (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 7:08 pm

Something about your latest choices looks like something Eric Hobsbawm would write.

Shared paradigm. Probably influenced Sandra Halperin or Christopher Clapham, who are my big influences.

Not making a direct comparison, but for some reason he floated to mind thinking of futile empires.

I subscribe to a lot of the things he seems to articulate. Like this part:

His work is a study of their construction in the context of the nation state. He argues that many traditions are invented by national elites to justify the existence and importance of their respective nation states.

I think that's demonstrably true. I think the place where we differ, without reading him yet, is that I probably find "national elites" to be a highly ambiguous topic that's really mostly an analytic abstraction when you actually cut into it. Maybe he does too, dunno. I do know the constant construction and reconstruction of the national identity as a tool for legitimation of policy and rule in general is a thing that was drummed into my head at an early age.

to justify the existence and importance of their respective nation states

Tribes and territory.
Call it something other than a "nation" if you like but it's an inevitable consequence of Monkeyness.

"The python is trying to swallow an elephant, is there a special burial process for that?"

Yes, and it requires a very large hole.

"trader-
Isn't the bank they own (so that they got the waiver) some little pissant branch in Utah? Going to stuff all of there I guess."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea...

MS -

CIT Bank

broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Sun, 7/19/2009 - 8:15 pm

Call it something other than a "nation" if you like but it's an inevitable consequence of Monkeyness.

That's true, but why you are leading it, who it is composed of, how it is structured, and why that is a legitimate structure compared to the many varied alternatives, and the methods for conveying that story and reinforcing it, are a primary mechanism at work in human society. For example, the nation-state narrative, which was the predominant narrative in the predominant social-cultural grouping for about a century is breaking down now under the inability of practically every nation state to live up to the role and responsibilities that are currently assigned to it in this constantly-reinvented myth.

It's very important to when and how we're living now, because the root of legitimacy is also the root of illegitimacy. To oversimplify, there are many more ways for a legitimated nanny state to fail than what is essentially a legitimated strong-man rule.

Where is CSC?

One benefit of the current crisis:

the sheer scale of the overall pot economy has some lawmakers pushing for broader legalization as a way to shore up the finances of a state that has teetered on the edge of bankruptcy. The state's top tax collector estimates that taxing pot like liquor could bring in more than $1.3 billion annually.
On Tuesday, Oakland will consider a measure to tax the city's four marijuana dispensaries, which the city auditor projects will ring up $17.5 million in sales in 2010. The city faces an $83 million budget shortfall, and expects the marijuana tax to raise $315,000.
Advocates point out that making pot legal would create millions if not billions of dollars more in indirect sales -- the ingredients used to make edible pot products, advertising, tourism and smoking paraphernalia.
With a recent poll showing more than half of Californians supporting legalization, pot advocates believe they will prevail. And they say other states will follow.

MS,

Here's the FDIC report on CIT bank: Press "find" for specific information including financial statements.

FDIC: Institution Directory

"Great instructors, great facility"

The Mrs said the County just OK'ed Front Sight's application to build a bunch of upscale homes on the property as well.

If Cali legalizes pot, things in Az will get very interesting.

Will we have boarder check points for pot?
Will Sherif Joe have a complete melt down?
If you have a receipt from Cali will you be able to keep your pot in other states?
How many people from other states will move to Cali just to be able to stay high legally?

This is going to get very interesting.

(I do hope they legalize. Not just for the income. The war on drugs is stupid. Just tax it and be done with it. Go after the meth makers and the coke dealers)

Do you see the human race on or near a cusp of development that will be expressed as a leap toward interconnectedness?

Wow, where did that come from?

In a word?
No.

I think the happy-holding-hands global economy is a pipedream which eventually fails.
A function of diversity.
A lot of the reason it currently works is because it's based on American culture.
There's a certain range of diversity which can function well.

I think ultimately the world has to move towards a more homogenized belief system and I think the marginal populations will react to that.
I think they're already reacting to the threat, signified by the increase in internet censorship.

//A specialty finance company funded largely through the issuance of debt. //

I think they call those "Pay Day Loans"

snark off

broward: Thanks. I'm working on an idea.

Would you agree that technology begins as games and game applications?

Would you also agree that as far as gaming goes, we've reached a plateau in development?

What then would be or might be next?

Could it be that simulations of fantasies might move next to simulations of realities?

Stiglitz had been hammering at Obama’s economic team for its handling of the financial crisis and calling the administration’s bailout plan a giveaway to Wall Street, an “ersatz capitalism” that would save the banks’ investors and creditors and screw the taxpayers. [...]

More Stiglitz please....

Here is what I know about banking.

Some banks are not really banks.
Banks can have off the books assets.
Those assets can be toxic.
Toxic assets, if held long enough become legacy assets.

Banks that are not banks use CDS to cover MBSs and ABCs to help us understand XYZs.

Truth is I don't understand banking at all. Which is why I don't like dealing with them. They know the rules, make up the rules and change the rules at will. I am stuck playing by their rules, as soon as they tell me what they are.

Bloomie has a CIT article up

no link to the CIT Group Inc (CIT:US) in the article, yet a link to WM?

hmmm.looks like a massive liquidation. stock may get halted and open back up at a penny on the pinky.

Some of this beyond me without seeing it on paper Risk, but what is left for those they already owe if not the best loans? If I was a creditor of CIT, I think I would force them in bankruptcy rather than have them put me lower on the totem pole of getting repaid.

I don't believe the public is being told the truth about this stuff. The truth is that the developed world is out of credit. I think Europe and Japan have been out of credit for years and the US just got there. The idea third world societies like China, which for the most part is still a third world economy with a first world face or is it the reverse are going to be great fountains of credit is nonsense. It was the US mortgage bubble which created China and to some extent all the other economies that have done well.

This begs the question, does anyone have any cash of their own to operate? There is supposed to be around $9 trillion in various accounts in the US, but it appears that no one has any of it and all must borrow to operate. Does it all belong to Wall Street? Bank credit is the problem in the US, not the solution and it appears they are hell bent on putting out more bank credit, which cannot be repaid. Notice the management of Goldman Sachs isn't any more interested in leaving capital in the company than they are in sending you and I a bonus check. Do they possess any cash or it is also Wall Street smoke and mirrors?

The great secret is that the equity in homes in the US provided the collateral for consumer spending and expansion of the world economy. The expansion of that quotient is a done deal. I believe we are looking at a massive amount of unsecured debt out there and what is secured is becoming less secure all the time. We won't have hyperinflation as long as there isn't demand to float the sale of goods around the world. The money put out in China is going to meet ruin as there is no purpose other than political expediency.

In case nobody's noticed, I'll apply disturbing analysis to the CR group.
It's shrinking in diversity, the kurtosis is narrowing.

Michael - gone.
Jas - gone.
Lucifer - gone.

Etc, etc.

Seen it in action at Democraticunderground during the election.

80/20 rule, eliminating 20% of the discordance increases efficiency and coordination.
There's always a trade-off cost.

Off to pool.

Volker:
Would you also agree that as far as gaming goes, we've reached a plateau in development?

Only in your scope of perception. The good design is all constrained by having too much capital and too much capability. Good design is all in the handheld world / flash & java games at this time.

Byz: to what end and for what purpose?

Could it be there is potential beyond?

And for what purpose and for what end are we developing the internet?

And for what purpose and for what end are we developing the internet?

Dang Volker, it's time for the purple pill! Hurry up!

I'll take yer Hubert Humphey and raise you a Barry Goldwater.

only a real progressive repulblo-scritter can come out of the south.

out here, thanks for all the sausage

broward is baiting. Don't fall for it.

Game design... Now there's a subject I could warm to.

Oh, like computer games?

Nah. Got better things to do with game theory.

C

Computer games used to be an interesting industry.

@Volker

Somewhere on the internet is a recording of a campaign speech Ronald Reagan gave in the 1940's in support of Hubert Humphrey. A good, rip-roaring New Deal Democrat speech it was.

Some of us at my commune might think Reagan had already deteriorated into Alzheimers by the 1960's ...

Domestic deflation, international inflation -- that's the ticket for now.

broward,

Michael was banned,
Jas I put on ignore a while ago, and he's probably off licking his wounds,
Lucifer is still around.

And Werner is in Munich being tried for war crimes

But I found disturbing flaws after a few years and the harder I poked, the larger they got.

...................................

And sometimes poking harder gets you undesirable results. I've tried some in depth investigating of viewpoints I found alien and disturbing, and after a certain point, people don't respond with logic.

"California does not need Maine and Maine does not need California."

Maine has no affect on CA but CA has a huge impact on Maine. The union cannot be unwound without a new civil war.

Clearly the answer to broward's implied criticism is for the remaining 80% of the board to get more diverse. Without of course violating statutes in about 12 jurisdictions on hate speech and libel.

I for one will gladly diversify. Here's a clip which is roughly 20% older than the previous one posted:

YouTube - The Breeders - Overglazed

C

PS Joanna, what makes you think the anonymity is pseudo?

What? That was 38 ?Yeas Ago

"President Richard M. Nixon: "I am today ordering a freeze on all prices and wages throughout the United States for a period of 90 days."

Tricky Dick

DAMN YU CR!!!!

PS Joanna, what makes you think the anonymity is pseudo?
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Just reading about what can be tracked in criminal cases....If there is a reason to look closer, seems they can.

looks like the sacred bondholders may have learned a lesson or two over the last 2 years.