"Lawmakers accused former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Thursday of bending to the demands of a major bank and keeping negotiations of a hefty bailout secret in his rush to stabilize financial markets last year."

Said like it's a bad thing-

there's an echo in here....

Ciao
MS

Is this the article that has y'all pissed at Krugman:
Deficits saved the world - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com

goog down 12 in a/h

Local bank...stock has tanked from $46 to $2 in a couple of years. with no news...BFF???

SJQU.OB: Summary for - Yahoo! Finance

Another painful day to be a 'short'. I am off to lick my wounds.

correction was down 12 a/h......

So many Banks, so little time...

Pay no attention to AH...I don't. There is enough institutional ownership to keep it from dropping much further. Baring any shocking geo-political news it won't see under $420 (if it does) for very long.

Goog is best summed up by two phrases:

Click farms and No forward guidance.

Crap-shoot investing- which is much different then trading.

Ciao
MS

So help me understand.

Banks are back to making money, using borrowed, printed money as the seed. But because of this, everything is ok, and we are going to revert to a 70% consumer driven payday. We need more houses, right??? More Starbucks???

IMO, the term jobless recovery = Socioeconomic strata being squashed together ala Mexico.

Obama might be history's biggest, baddest robber baron of them all, with Bush a very close second.

MS-you have always been honest and upfront on market...Kudos
what's your take of them blowing out head and shoulders and taking this higher...
are you short at all?

cheers...

And NASDAQ breaks out of the pack. I can hear the 'tech will lead us out of this recession' meme forming already.

iceman (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/16/2009 - 8:27 pm
And folks say CR is biased to the negative. Look at this AP headline on IBM: "IBM raises guidance, profit blows past forecasts".
Revenue was down 13% y-o-y, btw.

I sure hope -13% revenue is sustainable, like -500k jobs.

""I mean, how many ozt were 10 1964 and earlier dimes? I know a silver dollar had a little more silver in it than 4 quarters or 10 dimes, but what am I missing?"

The worst conditioned pre-1964 dimes, quarters, halves, and silver dollars are sold as "junk silver".
Currently it costs about 10X - face value. 10-dimes = 4-quarters = 2-half dollars = 1-silver dollar = same weight.

(13.21 × .0321507466 × 6.25 × .90) = each (pre-1964) quarter is worth approximately $2.3889998070 (or more)

404 Not Found...

Roubini's credibility is shot in my opinion after this latest statement about the worst being over. What exactly has changed for the better since his last recent comments dismissing any evidence of green shoots?

OT....

Ben Dover is no longer on that list ZH posted, nor is Blankfein

that I can tell anyways....

The CNBC article on Roubini doesn't give you the full text, it just gives a 'report' on what he said. So the happy elves at the station, can take quotes out of context and twist any which way. Basic rhetoric, basic propaganda. And the sheeple will not bother to read the whole thing anyway, they'll just skim the headline, and hit the 'buy' on the Blackberry. Because the doom has been contained.

Black Star Ranch (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/16/2009 - 4:34 pm reply Ignore user ""I mean, how many ozt were 10 1964 and earlier dimes? I know a silver dollar had a little more silver in it than 4 quarters or 10 dimes, but what am I missing?"

The worst conditioned pre-1964 dimes, quarters, halves, and silver dollars are sold as "junk silver".
Currently it costs about 10X - face value. 10-dimes = 4-quarters = 2-half dollars = 1-silver dollar = same weight.

(13.21 × .0321507466 × 6.25 × .90) = each (pre-1964) quarter is worth approximately $2.3889998070 (or more)

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1932-1964-Silver-Washington-Quarter-Val...

I'm aware of that, but Juvie was stating that an ozt of silver was as low as $.25

I'm just pointing out the fact that a silver dollar is somewhere around .77ozt and was, in fact, still worth a dollar.
Dimes equivalent to $1 face was a little less than .77 and still worth $1

so, how can silver be valued at $.25?

I guess he is taking a different angle than I am.

We all have something to say about these pigs. At the risk of repeating myself here is what I think.

YouTube - I Stand Alone

I think it is nice to add some music to your thoughts. These guys know exactly what they are doing and are fully in control. The rest of the people can rot for all they care. We are flies on a rhino and the rhino just plods along.

I don't think the 'second stimpack' idea has legs. Somebody will pipe up and say, "but we haven't even spent the first one yet, and you want more?"

You're assuming Congress-critters are rational.

"I don't think the 'second stimpack' idea has legs. Somebody will pipe up and say, "but we haven't even spent the first one yet, and you want more?"

Isn't this more like the 54th stimulus package when you think of every program that has been put in place? Or don't things like TALF, artificially low interest rates, billions in reckless loans by FHA, Hope for Homeowners, bailouts of AIG and Citi etc. count as stimulus packages? I sure think they do.

crispy is credited for frazier

for a new coin investor best places to start? gold / silver? what are hsitorical coin premiums vs. today?

"for a new coin investor best places to start?"

Stay away from "rare" and historical coins until you know enough to grade them yourself.

mAgic?

'Isn't this more like the 54th stimulus package...' nycb

Well, you could throw 'military industrial complex' spending in there too, if you like, but it doesn't help the analysis. I'm standing by this, though, a second stimpack is too much of a political hot potato.

nuke
hopes they will be rescued? or the full moon or no reason at all because" its over."

or a judas goat computer leading all the sheepies into buying so they can get all of the money they possibly can,tptb seems like this happens a lot.

Here's Roubini on Bloomberg video, I think (but I'm not sure) it's the talk the CNBC quotes came from. He sounds just as doomy as usual, IMO:

Bloomberg News

Roubini seems like he's getting whipsawed. He comes out with a positive spin every time the market has rallied, and a negative spin every time it sells off. He's buying high and selling low and has been for a couple of iterations. Sucks to be a guru and have to have an opinion every day, but the pay is good.

for a new coin investor best places to start? gold / silver? what are hsitorical coin premiums vs. today?

I agree with sm_landlord. Numismatic (historical or rare) coins are difficult and the premiums are outrageous.

You are safer with bullion, but in all cases do your own due diligence.

If you don't know why you want bullion, you shouldn't buy any bullion.

That said. I consider these the safest, most liquid gold coins you can buy:
American Eagle
South African Krugerrand
Canadian Maple

Here are some place to read about gold and silver:
Gold Council
Silver Institute

well if we're going to have a W then we need to set up for the double dip. maybe this is the set-up period. just saying

kencooper
we really need a tinfoil icon

".....Roubini , heh , this sucker finally surrendered .....who next ?."

When Faber, Rogers, and Schiff surrender, I'll get bullish.

Marc Faber Blog
Jim Rogers Blog
Peter Schiff Blog

The video says Roubini is coming out with a book. Green shoot!

I agree with you on the Dr. but I'll wait on CR. The Dr Doom has been on TV to much and is starting to believe his a dog.

................@sm_landlord ..............no more trolls , pls..................

Who here can point me to a good piece of technical analysis of the S&P today?

Arctic sea full of huge blobs of floating 'goo' - Telegraph

OT: but more news from the end of the world?

" cinco-

see babble's post just above your own. I will add that in true fashion he is most likely doing the same thing a Cramer or Faber does.."

So, what you're really saying is that folks are pissed because he drank the Kool-Aid at his Obama dinner, not for any particular thing he's said in the last day or two. No?

RGE - Roubini Statement on the U.S. Economic Outlook 

“It has been widely reported today that I have stated that the recession will be over “this year” and that I have “improved” my economic outlook. Despite those reports - however – my views expressed today are no different than the views I have expressed previously. If anything my views were taken out of context.

I've been a follower of Roger's for a long time but I think that he will stick to his view no matter what the market does to him and his investments. I can't argue as he has very solid analysis (if you know where to look-not his blog that's for sure). His comm. funds just did nothing over the last two day's (RJI,RJN,RJA) while we've gotten a tad over 4% in a market that they (along with other comms) have participated in throughout. May be that the comm play is over...don't know. I sold most of mine over the last week for a profit so I'm just waiting to see what it does with the next round 'o' treasury auction next week.

Ciao
MS

The real question is, "Is it good for Goldman Sachs"? - c

You know, I'm not sure the sheeple, and I mean ordinary J6P types, really understand the GS connection. Not enough to vote on it. All they know is, they need a job and medical care. Getting the stock market back up is ok for the 401k types, but they have a job. So showing some job growth (real or not) will be absolutely key in getting the Dems back in, in 2010 and 2012. The GS thing, IMO, will gradually fade out of the groupthink consciousness. It's jobs, baby, and the Dems are already worrying themselves about that. I think that's why the small business re-direction of stimpack money will get some serious attention.

Roubini says, "... green shoots become yellow weeds and then brown manure."

Since CR didn't post this today, and apropos of Marriott's earnings:

Hotel News Now | Hotels News - Article

In year-over-year measurements, the industry’s occupancy fell 9.7 percent to end the week at 60.3 percent. Average daily rate dropped 9.6 percent to finish the week at US$93.97. Revenue per available room for the week decreased 18.4 percent to finish at US$56.65.

Consistent with previous reports. Looks like July 4 (only 13% down) was an outlier.

MS,

Something is odd about the Rogers commodity funds. I can't put my finger on it, but they just feel weird to me. In that they don't behave like I would expect them to. Maybe I just don't understand them.

" scone (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/16/2009 - 5:16 pm

I thought you were talking about a stimulus package from our bought and paid from Congress, not something voted on in a general election. My bad-

Rob Dawg:

If you are out there, looks like you were right about Cali's budget process:

Efforts by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and legislative leaders to reach agreement on a package to wipe out the state's $26.3-billion deficit stalled Wednesday night.

Education squabble stalls California budget deal

Budget mess makes California vulnerable to crippling credit downgrade, official warns -- latimes.com

Ok, forget I ever asked for technical analysis!

I don't pay it much attention, as a rule, but since fundamentals don't seem to matter right now….

I thought I'd ask for a Rorschach-test reading of the S&P chart!

cinco-

No I'm not saying that at all...I've been getting his emails for over a year now and just recently they are all over the place.....each day. He still has a bearish slant but it's more and more commentary without any back-up when he does get fluffy. Go to his site and you'll see what I mean.

But one example (not from his site but...

U.S. Recession May End This Year, Roubini Predicts (Update4) - Bloomberg.com

and then we have this:

Lost ‘Animal Spirits’ Worsen Economy, Roubini Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com 

Granted these are several days (6 I think) apart but there is nothing fundamentally different when the first one was written as opposed to today's (the first one)

See what I mean? It's even worse in his daily's

Ciao
MS

I thought you were talking about a stimulus package from our bought and paid from Congress, not something voted on in a general election. - c

The election is always on the politicians' minds, and that effects their votes. If they thought it would get them re-elected, they'd vote to (insert improbable scenario here). But I think there will be some resistance to a second stimpack, and with the elections getting closer, that rumbling will have some impact. Not that there are a lot of Congressional seats coming up, but it is already being looked at as a bellweather. In other words, will the Dems consolidate their gains even more, or drop back as reaction to the debt sets in? Roubini has already started a "government re-leveraging with unsustainable debt" meme, and that ball will keep rolling through the year.

From my inbox:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

July 16, 2009

STATEMENT ON U.S. ECONOMIC OUTLOOK BY DR. NOURIEL ROUBINI

The following is a statement from Dr. Nouriel Roubini, Chairman of RGE Monitor and Professor, New York University, Stern School of Business:

“It has been widely reported today that I have stated that the recession will be over “this year” and that I have “improved” my economic outlook. Despite those reports - however – my views expressed today are no different than the views I have expressed previously. If anything my views were taken out of context.

“I have said on numerous occasions that the recession would last roughly 24 mon ths. Therefore, we are 19 months into that recession. If as I predicted the recession is over by year end, it will have lasted 24 months with a recovery only beginning in 2010. Simply put I am not forecasting economic growth before year’s end.

“Indeed, last year I argued that this will be a long and deep and protracted U-shaped recession that would last 24 months. Meanwhile, the consensus argued that this would be a short and shallow V-shaped 8 months long recession (like those in 1990-91 and 2001). That debate is over today as we are in the 19th month of a severe recession; so the V is out of the window and we are in a deep U-shaped recession. If that recession were to be over by year end – as I have consistently predicted – it would have lasted 24 months and thus been three times longer than the previous two and five times deeper – in terms of cumulative GDP contraction – than the previous two. So, there is nothing new in my remarks today about the recession being over at the end of this year.

“I have also consistently argued – including in my remarks today - that while the consensus predicts that the US economy will go back close to potential growth by next year, I see instead a shallow, below-par and below-trend recovery where growth will average about 1% in the next couple of years when potential is probably closer to 2.75%.

“I have also consistently argued that there is a risk of a double-dip W-shaped recession toward the end of 2010, as a tough policy dilemma will emerge next year: on one side, early exit from monetary and fiscal easing would tip the economy into a new recession as the recovery is anemic and deflationary pressures are dominant. On the other side, maintaining large budget deficits and contin ued monetization of such deficits would eventually increase long term interest rates (because of concerns about medium term fiscal sustainability and because of an increase in expected inflation) and thus would lead to a crowding out of private demand.

“While the recession will be over by the end of the year the recovery will be weak given the debt overhang in the household sector, the financial system and the corporate sector; and now there is also a massive re-leveraging of the public sector with unsustainable fiscal deficits and public debt accumulation.

“Also, as I fleshed out in detail in recent remarks the labor market is still very weak: I predict a peak unemployment rate of close to 11% in 2010. Such large unemployment rate will have negative effects on labor income and consumption growth; will postpone the b ottoming out of the housing sector; will lead to larger defaults and losses on bank loans (residential and commercial mortgages, credit cards, auto loans, leveraged loans); will increase the size of the budget deficit (even before any additional stimulus is implemented); and will increase protectionist pressures.

“So, yes there is light at the end of the tunnel for the US and the global economy; but as I have consistently argued the recession will continue through the end of the year, and the recovery will be weak and at risk of a double dip, as the challenge of getting right the timing and size of the exit strategy for monetary and fiscal policy easing will be daunting.

“RGE Monitor will soon release our updated U.S. and Global Economic Outlook. A preview of the U.S. Outlook is available on our website: www.rgemonitor.com”

I figured out why company profits are declining so rapidly...

Their revenues are declining by 25-50%, and yet they continue to pay Google (revenues up slightly) the same amount for advertisement.

I cannot believe that Google can continue to grow as other companies see their revenues and earnings plummet (not to mention all those that are going BK).

Maybe the government (and government-supported companies) will spend billions on online advertising.

And to think, that misinterpretation added 1% to the market.

Anyone want to bet their arse his recanting does not push it down 1%?

Anyone want to bet their arse his recanting does not push it down 1%? - G

Not unless it gets trumpeted on CNBC and the other MSM, which seems unlikely because it would make them look bad. Welcome to the Ministry of Truth.

Thanks, G! I'm off to the gym to work off the burger!

The best description of the market was from an old-time trader I saw interviewed on a financial show year ago. Basically, he said, day to day, there was not rhyme of reason. The market goes up, or down, because that is what it wants. When it wants to go up, it will find a reason (Roubini's comments). When it wants to go down, it will find a reason (CIT BK, whatever). Which is why I don't trade; don't got the stomach for it.

There are a lot of mixed signals right now.

The net of it might be that things have stabilized and may improve for the 59.5% of the people who are working .

For the rest, the Great Recession will only get worse.

Rob Dawg:

So what's the endgame? Municipal bond dislocation? Federal receivership? Business as usual?

Well, since it's impossible to read to the bottom.

Anecdote of the day.

Went to my first foreclosure mediation.

Had really very little hope, just filed the request to delay.

Well. New fed program. My guy is getting 2% interest; was told he didn't qualify
but he had six months to show additional income, and could make x dollars
a month payments (equal or less than a rental amount) . 2% for 5 years, then 3, then 5
then 5. then 5 1/4 for the rest of the 40 year term. With the 80k he owes now, (including
taxes and insurance the bank pays to balloon in FORTY YEARS.

They asked if he had a second, which he does, that he hasn't paid in about a year
and a half. We said. They didn't ask how much was owed. He said they wrote it
off, which I think is true. he's gotten a few half hearted calls from a bill collector
type person, not that bank, so I suppose they've sold the 150k owed to the 2nd
for a few pennies on the dollar.

The thing is, he can't possibly sell the property for at least 28 years--to allow the 2nd
to expire, forgetting about the balloon.

But he gets to stay there for a while and seems happy. At some point, if he stays, no
doubt he'll bargain down that balloon.

So, since this is a federal program, I guess you guys should be happy that
your taxpayer dollars are being used to bail out a person, rather than GS (snark).

One less rotted house, I guess.

Roubini == Evil!

Comrade Coinz: You are absolutely correct with respect to how to hold PMs.Yes it is wrong to consider it an investment when as you point out it is merely insurance.. One thing I might add and that is have a few common dates collectors gold. True you pay a premium but these coins were exempt from confiscation and i hope would continue to be so. With respect to gold I can't see the government in the long term do anything but make gold transactions illegal except for sales to the government. Sort of like 1932 but not confiscation just merely a restriction on sale. Thank you for your insights.

S and JP:

Yeah, got that newsmail from RGE - looks like Roubini was misquoted by that paragon of business networks CNBC. Now if he demands a retraction/clarification from those guys...

Evidence that this rally is like all the others, sauce for the eventual decline/fall back to near March lows. That'll happen only when my short positions are all but worthless of course.

put me down for a Double Digit Doozy tomorrow.

Wine icon??

He allowed that perception on TV and in this B'Berg article:

What did he say on TV?

As far as the Bloomberg article: Anyone who has had significant interaction with reporters knows that quotation marks can be pretty loose. I am happy if the reporter gets 25% of my words in the quotation correct, and ecstatic @ 50%. Seriously.

Issuing PR like this is typical of correcting a misrepresentation, so I'm curious at what is actually filmed. If he's playing both sides of the coin, then it's the world's worst attempt.

Liz...the wine icon has arrived (I think it's red only) Give it a lookup...Im too stoopid to know how to use them.

good clip from Ron Paul on the Fed audit, from today.

support HR 1207 and S 604

Ron Paul The American People Demand Transparency! Audit the Fed: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

Hurrah, hurrah. Let's see.

California endgame; slouching towards gomorrah.

So, Dawg, deal or no deal?

No deal?

MS, Thank you for the heads up.

It's always nice when the government decides to "partner" with you isn't it?

My guy is getting 2% interest

This part of the Hope for Homeowners plan infuriates me. No delinquent borrower should be allowed a mortgage mod at a rate below the current consensus for 30-yr mortgages for prime borrowers! If you can't afford the current 30-yr rate for prime borrowers, then you can't stay in your house.

liz: thanks for the real world anecdotal

ms: SLV is a sham

Off to a meeing. I'd rather be here.

Joe Biden spoke today.

Vice President Joe Biden told people attending an AARP town hall meeting that unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money.

“Well, people when I say that look at me and say, ‘What are you talking about? You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’” Biden said. “The answer is yes, I’m telling you .”

Some folks here seemed pretty quick to throw Meredith Whitney and then Roubini to the curb. I'd suggest next time something like this happens, try to find the original source material, not just the out of context headline from yahoo finance, and read it yourself. Then make your own judgment.

"Honestly I am running out of options to put money to work.."

Me too. Everything looks expensive to me.

You have plenty of options.
You can send it to me, I'm fairly cheap.

"You can send it to me, I'm fairly cheap."

No, no! Send it to me, I'm cheaper! If I'm not home when you come by, just leave it on the kitchen table, the window will be open--it's my drive thru convenience.

volcker-

I know......doesn't mean I can't have an entry and exit strategy. If it bites me...it does..I'm not massively in it like other's here. It's a bet just like everything else is including whatever you have as well.

The biggest problem is that if SLV does go ballistic you may see a HUGE spread in bid/ask so it won't make a damn bit of difference if you own and want to sell. I see that as a bigger issue (and more importantly for the overall markets as well) then the actual irregularities it has with what it claims to hold or not.

This is also a motivator for my physical purchase.

Ciao
MS

Cinco:

That's the bush I was beating around.

"Vice President Joe Biden told people attending an AARP town hall meeting that unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money."

I thought they saved the scare tactics for election season. Are we going to have to put up with this stuff 24x7 now?

@nincompoop,

If you think confiscation is still a possibility, collector gold (pre-1933) would be useful. For several reasons, I don't think that is a threat any more, but who knows.

And if I ever make a mistake on your account, I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

" sm_landlord (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 7/16/2009 - 6:01 pm
.....
I thought they saved the scare tactics for election season. Are we going to have to put up with this stuff 24x7 now?"

I suspect that the election season has already started......and apparently, yes-

Comrade Coinz (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Thu, 7/16/2009 - 10:01 pm
@nincompoop,
If you think confiscation is still a possibility, collector gold (pre-1933) would be useful.

Pre-confiscated.

Avoid the rush.

I am outraged. MUST READ:
Zero Hedge: Mark It Zero!

Freedom of speech, anyone? I used to wonder what direction our country is taking. Now I fear that my nightmares are coming true.

Roubini's credibility is shot in my opinion after this latest statement about the worst being over. What exactly has changed for the better since his last recent comments dismissing any evidence of green shoots?

He said we are done jumping off a 50-story building and now we will merely be jumping off a 20 story-building.

ummm. There's no copyright infringement with "Tyler Durden" is there?

yes there is

"It's very interesting. Roubini linked himself to the Recession meme and rode it up.
And because he's lilnked to it, now he's fading out as it fades out."

The recession meme will fade out and become a depression meme in due time.

"In Germany doesn't act fast and bailout the country, things could get ugly..."

Why is it Germany's problem to bail out Greece?

Why is it Germany's problem to bail out Greece?

Alphabetical buddy system?

"You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’” Biden said. “The answer is yes, I’m telling you .”

You have to burn your savings in order to save it.

or we had to destroy the village in order to save it

Nuke-

That happening here is not to be discounted.......maybe not soon but they are running out of options. Why do you think Bush wanted to privatize everything?

Ciao
MS

.I wonder why and doubt an advertising company would give anything away for free..

Show bad balance sheet, get bailout.

Charles-that's true...didn't think of that...

"Roubini's credibility is shot in my opinion after this latest statement about the worst being over. What exactly has changed for the better since his last recent comments dismissing any evidence of green shoots?"

He just said that his opinion was EDITED & Taken out of context. He called for U shaped 24 month long recession, with below normal growth at least couple of years after that!
SO he says that recovery might be there by the end of this year (December) however there is a huge possibility of double dip, which will depend on government policy, etc.

GS and BAC got the hooks into Zero-hedge it seems.
Goebbels would be proud wouldn't he?

Ciao
MS

"SO he says that recovery might be there by the end of this year (December) however there is a huge possibility of double dip, which will depend on government policy, etc."

Silly wabbit - double dipping is for government pensions, not for recessions.

And Trix are for Feds.

Well, f*ck here we go again...it isn't bankers fault, it isn't deregulation, it isn't the government.. no it is joe consumer who isn't maxing out his credit cards buying crap...somebody forget to tell the people in charge that the bankers aren't the people's friend anymore? Somebody dig up Phil Gramm, looks like he was right after all.

"I cannot believe that Google can continue to grow as other companies see their revenues and earnings plummet (not to mention all those that are going BK)."

I would argue that it is TV advertising that is getting cut first, and online will be more stable.