CIT: Government Support Unlikely
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Wed, 07/15/2009 - 2:12pm (197 comments)
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So, Corus and CIT in extremis.
WAYYYYY TBTF. Too asset heavy and no one wants any more distress sales price discovery. There's a bailout comin'. Just watch.
Glad to see that stuffing the toxic waste into the FDIC is off the table.
Emperor G Sachus gave them the thumbs down?
This is Bair v Geithner/Bernanke round 3
I'll be impressed if Bair wins
GS must be shorting CIT. They'll go long right before the bailout.
Hmmm ...
And hedged too - their CDS book overfloweth...
Would worhipping blankfein make fed support more likely?
It's a trap! Bailout is coming, I can smell it! Take cover!
Ghost, if I didnt know any better I would have guessed that you penned this great article on our debt and last and only debt buyers being ben and QE.
Zero Hedge: Sprott On Problems And... Problems
Don't need a bailout.
Recession is ending!
.
.
http://www.realmeme.com/roller/page/realmeme?entry=2009_recession_revisited
.
.
Maybe it's small enough to fail ... or they were too late to the trough.
too late to the trough
someone has to be allowed to go down to prove the 'recovery' is real
Super fast bankruptrcy:
Bad loans and assets go to the the US taxpayers
Good Assets get taken over by GS.
Problem solved.
Debt per US household moves a notch higher so we are all better off
this will be a managed bk
US gov may not go forward with the equity windfall but there will be extension of lines of credit and likely bondholders won't take the full bloodbath they otherwise would have seen
I'd be really surprised if they were allowed to go belly up. Maybe Timmy has been chastened by GS's quarterly report. People are going to want his head soon if the bailouts continue.
darn, the pig didn't show.
CIT was a political pissing contest, and Geithner lost.
CIT's bailout problem is that its only 2 options were the 23A exception or the TGLP, which would have required FRB or FDIC acquiescence, respectively. Bernanke has stated that the FRB can not be bailing out individual companies; it would take away from its macroeconomic priorities. To this end, it has done things like dump Maiden Lane onto the UST; also, AIG has been forced to repay FRB debt with proceeds from UST trust co assets. On the other side, Bair has already began phasing out TGLP. The one shot for Geithner to bailout CIT was via TARP, and it did it to the tune of $2B.
but couldn't Geithner still pony up another 10 billion or so in TAPR funds
that's where I'm a little confused (and where I think this decision was actually made a pay grade above him...)
"
but couldn't Geithner still pony up another 10 billion or so in TAPR funds
that's where I'm a little confused (and where I think this decision was actually made a pay grade above him...)
"
He may need that for the next 100 banks coming to the trough. Or the next injection for GM or [insert company name here]
waiting now for Nemo's "How big is CIT" posting...
There may be another way:
Tax all financial institutions equlal to the amount to cover CIT. Reassign CITs assets to the taxpayer for public auction. There, everyone remians whole.
"Tax all financial institutions equlal to the amount to cover CIT"
Jesus Christ you can't do that, that's Socialist. We are living in the god-damn Capitalist US(SR) or A!
CIT had initially applied for $10B in TARP funds, but only received ~$2B. EESA put limits on the amount of funds that could be received (1%min and 3% max of the Risk Weighted assets).
Rule 23A exception and TGLP were the only government options.
CR, board's gonna be pretty grouchy for awhile.
The Doomer Scenario is fading out and we're gonna have withdrawal symptoms.
Do you have any digital methadone?
Basel - Thanks!
What did they do to the pig?
Link to latest WSJ article on CIT:
CIT Rescue Talks Collapse - WSJ.com
broward - did you know there is a US senator from Rhode Island named Sheldon Whitehouse?
Are you sure there's nothing to the name meme?
What did they do to the pig?
You missed the bbq?
This is not what I expected. And still not what I expect, truth be told.
I guess I should be buying Good Stocks - loading up the boat.
I'm a dope for not doing this sooner. Go with the guaranteed winner.
are they still taking cali ious?
Can anyone tell me where to find the consumer debt level year by year ?
Once the green shoots are firmly established, Feds will let the market drop again to keep everyone off balance.
sporkfed - try this and see if it's what you're looking for:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/z1r-2.pdf
If they really let CIT do a bankruptcy, then maybe the economy really is on the mend. I believe it when I see it, but I would consider having to go long (after the negative market reaction, of course).
Upscale home sales lag as jumbo loans are hard to get - USATODAY.com
Real estate groups such as the NAR are pressuring Congress and the Obama administration to increase the jumbo loan limits that Fannie and Freddie will guarantee and make them permanent. Current amounts were raised in 2008 and are set to expire Dec. 31. They also want the Federal Reserve to buy jumbo-backed securities because Freddie and Fannie can't. The hope is that Fed purchases would create enough of a secondary market for these loans so banks would be more open to lending higher amounts.
Meanwhile, in jumbo-heavy markets, homeowners are increasingly frustrated by their inability to sell. They can't relocate for jobs or retirement. They can't unload vacation homes that they may now struggle to afford.
One such homeowner is Robert Westover, who works for the federal government in Washington, D.C. He's been trying for months to sell a home in Hawaii with an ocean view. He bought it for $585,000 six years ago; it was valued at $1.1 million during the real estate peak in 2006. But there are no offers. He planned to list it for $940,000, but his Realtor suggested $890,000. Then he lowered it to $850,000. At one point, a potential buyer came forward but had no financing.
"It's just been tough. It was getting crazy," says Westover, 45, who now is taking the home off the market and renting it instead. "I hope I've learned a lesson, which is don't put anything on the market in this economy. Most people who have homes in the jumbo (price range) are reliable, pay bills. Why are we suffering while the government gives help to everyone else?"
LOL
"GS must be shorting CIT. They'll go long right before the bailout."
So true.
Sporkfed, there is a link in my 11/24 article.
so when are gs,jpm,ms going to really get down to playing "who is king of the hill"
"I hope I've learned a lesson, which is don't put anything on the market in this economy"
Well, duh!
"I hope I've learned a lesson, which is don't put anything on the market in this economy"
I hope he learned another lesson that 100% return on real-estate in 6 years is not normal and asking for a crash.
Robert Westover - you make too much money. You make this much money because the Chinese will loan it to us, because your salary is not supportable with federal tax revenues. Your salary has unsustainably inflated the DC area home prices, to the point that this private company employee with a young family cannot afford a home in said DC area.
O/T and sorry if already posted:
A market is set to emerge this week in Californian IOUs as the persistence of the state’s budget crisis is making it increasingly difficult to exchange these emergency instruments for cash.
California is printing $3bn of IOUs for businesses, individual taxpayers and local counties in lieu of cash. It has sent more than $450m of them to court-appointed attorneys, county-run health schemes and taxpayers awaiting rebates, among others
SecondMarket, a New York firm that trades illiquid assets, launched a platform for trading the IOUs on Wednesday
FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - California IOUs set for trade
I suggest we at CR use pig wear as a fom of currency, no?
Thanks, Outsider. I'm working off the idea that the recession will be over when debt levels fall back to manageable levels. If I can determine a rate of improvement, I might
go long on a few companies.
Thanks, Outsider. I'm working off the idea that the recession will be over when debt levels fall back to manageable levels. If I can determine a rate of improvement, I might
go long on a few companies.
If they really let CIT do a bankruptcy, then maybe the economy really is on the mend.
Give that man a beer. I was wondering how a CIT bankruptcy would cause a market rally.
JP - lol!
Obama, who long accused predecessor George W. Bush of ignoring Afghanistan...
In the two weeks since U.S. and British troops launched massive assaults, Western troops have died at an average rate of three a day, nearing the tempo of the bloodiest days in Iraq and almost 20 times the rate in Afghanistan from 2001-04.
Obama has "succeeded" in raising his death rate to match Bush's death rate.
LBPOST.com: Port Traffic Declines In June After Hopes Of Improvement
LA port shows decline in shipping traffic. Looks like the bloom is off.
Eight years on and what do we have to show for it as a nation?
No pig on the other thread?
Thought I'd check before i left.
I didn't see it either, Liz.
"One such homeowner is Robert Westover, who works for the federal government in Washington, D.C. He's been trying for months to sell a home in Hawaii with an ocean view. He bought it for $585,000 six years ago; it was valued at $1.1 million during the real estate peak in 2006. But there are no offers. He planned to list it for $940,000, but his Realtor suggested $890,000. Then he lowered it to $850,000. At one point, a potential buyer came forward but had no financing."
Sickening, isn't it?
but they let lehman do a bk, oh i know lehman was a wall st. cit is a main street with little dont matter companies and people. this really might be a jobless ..
BK is the new black.
So why is Obama going after Bin Laden? Hes is contained just like Sadam.
No wonder that other thread was not hopping. We were divided.
Now, I really am going.
Rob Dawg, got invisible-pigged on this one:
"They keep running into a problem. There's nothing left to tax. That's not hyperbole. Two ideas; removing the home mortgage interest deduction and extending sales taxes to services. Both would work for a while but even the Dems know it would crash home values in the first gut the business community with the second. The Dems also fear for their party but not like you may imagine. The Gerrymandered districts keep party dominance safe but if they make the draconian (c. 2004 funding levels) cuts necessary the primary electoral system is likely to be swamped with even more extreme candidates.
I'm still hearing the whisper of a "temporary" VAT repayment mechanism in exchange for Federal bailouts now. "
I'm really hoping that the gerrymander system starts to break down with the implementation of Prop 11 and the advent of more moderate candidates: Dems who don't worship the public unions, Repubs who don't think tax cuts are the only way and prisons are sacred. Such moderate political animals would be wilder and scarier to the powers that be than "extreme" candidates. I mean, the current district system encourages extreme, discourages moderation. After that, I'm really hoping for a two-top primary proposition in '10.
As for cutting spending, the problem is that not enough is on the table, because the extremists in charge now can't deviate from their bases:
These and others are all unthinkable under the current California political system. That's why that political system -- has to go.
Now, I really am going.
Don't go, all the plants will die.
"No pig on the other thread?"
Because the previous thread was double-pigged. CR is now posting too fast for Ken's code to keep up...
California (and the other states as well) should begin taxing churches.
Because of the double pig, comments will be extended 15 minutes after the close of the previous pig.
Here's a cringe inducing video.
YouTube - Bank of America sings U2's One
reposted from last thread:
CIT is in big trouble because they do things that the too big to failers want to do.
can't get in the way of the TBTF crowd.
it's honestly ridiculous. One of the reasons why CIT is in such bad shape is because they must compete with a bunch of banks that have artificially low borrowing costs due to governmental support.
aarrrgggghhhh.
I'm not saying CIT shouldn't fail.
I'm saying it's ridiculous that CIT should have to "compete" with govt supported banks.
retarded.
=========
(poic said:): CIT is in bad shape because they got into sub-prime and student debt in a major way and were funding their day to day operations with CP. Once that froze up they were SOL. Now they're doubly screwed because of what you mentioned. But doesn't sound like that's why they got into trouble in the first place.
(my reply):
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sorry if it came off sounding like CIT is an angel or something.
However, one of the reasons they got into sub prime and student debt is because they "had" to compete with the TBTF banks. Not sure I see why CIT should fail when nobody else does.
The ONLY reason I would want CIT to "live":
1) because I don't want to concentrate yet more power into the #$%#(#@ biggest banks.
2) because in the past CIT lent to small businesses, at least until they ran into funding problems.
I care little/nothing for CIT, but would like the US govt to address increasing lending to small businesses in some manner. small businesses do employ a fair number of people, and small businesses don't outsource as much as the megacorps do IMO.
Poic,
Please don't do that again...
One of the reasons why CIT is in such bad shape is because they must compete with a bunch of banks that have artificially low borrowing costs due to governmental support.
The investment banks used the same argument wrt to subprime home loans and FRE/FNM.
HomeGnome,
That was like a nightmare rerun of some of the original Office series and the pep-talks at my last couple companies all rolled into one. Ewwww.
Once you start tinkering with the banks, where do you stop?
Turbo Timmy can't scare BOA Ken into buying CIT like Paulson could!
From Marketwatch:
CIT was one of the largest non-bank lenders in the world, a big part of the so-called shadow banking system that collapsed when the financial crisis erupted last year.
Now there's your problem. I wonder why the Fed isn't interested in helping poor old CIT?
Not sure I see why CIT should fail when nobody else does.
There is a great reason to let it fail: This administration has not had a major bank failure before. (They've inherited the others.) So if somebody is paying attention:
Now whether they actually follow thru on such a strategy is another story. I mean, nobody consulted with me..
California (and the other states as well) should begin taxing churches. - HG
Frank Zappa used to say, "tax the churches, tax the businesses owned by the churches." He didn't get anywhere with that, though.
Give me
Your dirty love
Like some tacky little pamphlet
In your daddys bottom drawer
Wonder how far Frank got with that...
we need to see what the Administration is going to do about small businesses.
if they thought unemployment was a problem just see what'll happen if we don't get some financing to the small businesses of America.
if they let CIT fail they need to figure out how to get lending to the small businesses again, including factoring loans.
Wow, that would be heartening, if Obama has the guts to let CIT fail, as it should.
Go, O-, go!
P.S. -- probably, China told Timmy, 'Do not do it, minion.'
sm_landlord wrote:
Once you start tinkering with the banks, where do you stop?
Rome, circa 1936.
There is a great reason to let it fail: This administration has not had a major bank failure before.
risky. let's see how it plays out.
Wall street bailout? check.
main street bailout? (CIT funds small businesses, or at least they used to up till last year). nope.
Possible take home message: Obama hates small businesses.
They let CIT fail if and only if they can figure out a way to roll out a small business lending plan at the same time. That's my prediction.
unfortunately, I'll puke if this plan is to use wells and JPMorgan and BofA etc to do it.
I better get an air sickness bag.
The signal the government sends with any sort of CIT assistance is that the economy is too fragile to withstand a CIT failure.
Why not shotgun marry Corus and CIT? Then they can hit the window.
P.S. -- probably, China told Timmy, 'Do not do it, minion.'
A bankruptcy is deflationary, which makes their $$ worth more.
A bailout is inflationary, which makes their $$ worth less.
China might well have told Timmy to knock it off already with the bailouts.
"Why not shotgun marry Corus and CIT? Then they can hit the window. "
New symbol coitus.
Possible take home message: Obama hates small businesses.
Not entirely accurate. The Administration had its one shot with TARP. Bernanke and Bair were the only available options, and they've both made it clear that they're trying to extricate themselves from individual bailouts.
Edited: Didn't see "possible"
"I better get an air sickness bag. "
I'm going to see if they sell those by the shitload at Costco.
You can't be too prepared in an environment like this.
Wall street bailout? check.
@ YTL: Who have they bailed out that was not a continuation?
"One of the reasons why CIT is in such bad shape is because they must compete with a bunch of banks that have artificially low borrowing costs due to governmental support.
The investment banks used the same argument wrt to subprime home loans and FRE/FNM."
Turns out they were right - look where the cheap money lead everyone.
EDIT: Where will the cheap money today lead us?
"Possible take home message: Obama hates small businesses."
Actually, the take home message for me is "Timmy is not in town".
Wait until he returns later this week. If CIT can hang on that long, they will be bailed out.
The most important thing to them right now is making sure his flight isn't delayed.
"Frank Zappa used to say, "tax the churches, tax the businesses owned by the churches." He didn't get anywhere with that, though.'
You'd get some money out of a few big individual churches, Catholics, Moonies, Scientologists..
But the vast majority of neighborhood churches are so underfunded these days they'd fall over if you sneezed at them. The major "business" they take part in is renting out unused parts of the building to daycare organizations or nonprofit groups. Without that, a lot of them would be gone.
This is California. Missouri mileage may vary.
"Possible take home message: Obama hates small businesses."
Reviewing the Democrat's health-care plan, I'd have to agree. The one revenue-raising step that makes sense, to tax the gold-plated health plans of big corporate workers (you both raise revenues and reduce excessive health care demand) is a no go. Big labor made sure of that.
"But the vast majority of neighborhood churches are so underfunded these days they'd fall over if you sneezed at them."
On a recent field trip, I noticed quite a few small "startup" churches operating out of storefronts and industrial facilities. Clearly they don't have the income for significant tax payments. But they do seem to be helping the CRE situation a bit.
Obama doesn't "hate" small business. He has no idea what they are and what they do. His background just has no exposure to their issues.
"Possible take home message: Obama hates small businesses."
Does anyone here really believe that the collective US citizenry memory lasts until mid-term elections, let alone 2012?
"Does anyone here really believe that the collective US citizenry memory lasts until mid-term elections, let alone 2012? "
By 2012, there may not be any small businesses left to worry about.
Problem Solved!
What is the taxpayers responsibility here? How can one calculate it?
75 billion in assets
so would this be a liquidation event?
if so, that's a fair number of bondholders going belly up
FDIC has no jurisdication here, so no role for receivership
I honestly don't see it, even though this is a relatively small bank, it is still fairly sizeable and there will be shockwaves if this is a straight liquidation
Obama doesn't "hate" small business. He has no idea what they are and what they do. His background just has no exposure to their issues.
Sure he does - they print leaflets for community organizers... btw which is about as much as Bush knew... he thought they came to the ball park once in a while on employee picnics. Otherwise invisible to both.
"Does anyone here really believe that the collective US citizenry memory lasts until mid-term elections, let alone 2012?"
If you hit them over the head with some outrageous corrupt act, and then remind them tomorrow by hitting them over the head again with it again; and keep doing it daily for two or three years.... they'll remember.
By 2012, there may not be any small businesses left to worry about.
Well, the ones that don't rely on credit might thrive. But no one seems to believe that businesses need 6-9 months of cash in the bank anymore.
One of the latest details to come out about the health plan in Congress is an exception to the insurance requirements for businesses below a certain size. If passed, there will be a strong temptation for businesses to adjust.
I remember back in the early 2000s that there was some set of requirements that kicked in when your employee head count rose above 50. Needless to say, many businesses went to great lengths to keep the head count at or below 50. Quite a boon for consultants.
What is the taxpayers responsibility here? How can one calculate it?
1) How much do you make?
2) Send it in.
"Why not shotgun marry Corus and CIT? Then they can hit the window. "
Tried that with CITI and Wachovia. Never had the chance to see if it worked, maybe worth another try.
Small businesses can go to hell while GS eats grapes and sip nectar
btw which is about as much as Bush knew
Nah. Bush actually had first hand experience bankrupting an oil company (Arbusto) that he started with his trust fund.
So what are the warrants worth that we got when we gave them 2.33B in TARP money?
This should be interesting... A Lehman for Main street... tick tick BOOM!
So maybe the vix was rising today bcse this was already known, throw in a fake out from the press, get longs to pile in and wala....bull trap?
"But no one seems to believe that businesses need 6-9 months of cash in the bank anymore. "
Well, I do. But it's not possible for some companies.
What surprised me was that a lot of CIT's small business customers relied on CIT for factoring.
Now any business that needs factoring:
1. Has little or no cash at all.
2. Has no control over their cash flow
3. Is on the brink anyway.
Lehman for Main Street - good way to describe this... I wonder if the parade of tragedies will actually materialize.
This should be interesting... A Lehman for Main street... tick tick BOOM!
For you longwaver....
@ YTL: Who have they bailed out that was not a continuation?
A continuation of a bailout IS a bailout.
Especially when you allow companies to "give back" TARP money but still keep the federal guarantee on debt, allowing them to have record bonuses.
===
there may be no need to merge CIT and corus.
From "A" at zerohedge:
The thing to watch now is who benefits. The likely biggest winners:
The unsecured bondholders can't be looking at more than a few cents on the dollar....let the games begin
So when do we get that 2.33B of TARP money back?
"So when do we get that 2.33B of TARP money back? "
Do you have your air sickness bag ready?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Never.
"One of the latest details to come out about the health plan in Congress is an exception to the insurance requirements for businesses below a certain size. If passed, there will be a strong temptation for businesses to adjust."
To me, this was an obvious intentional loophole. Of course they'll adjust; outsource, split into two, hire fewer full-time workers, whatever they have to do.
So when do we get that 2.33B of TARP money back?
Don't worry. I think AIG had written some CDS on it or something.
The way I understand it, when CIT goes down it makes AIG more profitable, which leads to money in the taxpayer's pocket! At least that's what the kind man on CNBC told me.
/snark.
This is just the type of good idea we need, Governor.
It was an intentional loophole, but probably not an intended consequence.
"Tax the Wealthy to Keep US Healthy"
Robin-Hood Reich is happy:
The House: Tax the Wealthy to Keep Everyone Healthy, by Robert Reich: It's the most blatant form of Robin-Hood economics ever proposed. The universal health care bill reported by the House yesterday pays for the health insurance of the 20 percent of Americans who need help affording it with a surtax on the richest 1 percent.
Economist's View
" bout time ...
The biggest wealth gap since 1928 and getting bigger ...
Which of the states that formerly composed California is RD the governor of?
I really need to start paying more attention...
I completely agree. Factoring A/R is what a small business does after maxing out all of its other credit options.
GE for sure - I know a lot of small mid-sized companies who are 'owned' by GE capital [in the same way a homedebtor's house is owned by the bank... sooner or later].
"The thing to watch now is who benefits. The likely biggest winners:
Aha! I knew they were being allowed to fail to benefit someone.
But is GE still solvent?
Janet Tavekoli speaks up against Goldman Sachs, and competing against the TBTF banks.
worth a listen/view (video)
SqueezePlay : July 15, 2009
Well, I do. But it's not possible for some companies.
Then we have to decide whether they are, in fact, viable companies. I say no. You probably do too. But it's a hard pill to swallow.
Sadly, if we want a robust economic structure, that pill must be swallowed.
What surprised me was that a lot of CIT's small business customers relied on CIT for factoring.
That's what I was getting at with 6-9 months. There seems to have been an arms race for companies to hold as little cash as possible. (CEO walks in the CFO office: OMG we have 6 months of cash?! Put it to work! ... and so it begins.)
Naturally, there are good reasons to hold onto cash and those reasons have been forgotten in the past couple of decades. I suspect that those reasons will be re-remembered quickly.
Which of the states that formerly composed California is Rob Dawg the governor of?
None.
Yet.
Factoring A/R is what a small business does after maxing out all of its other credit options.
And if they sell to big OEMs you can bet it isn't 30 days either... for automotive it WAS 120 days minimum BEFORE the BKs.
Strangely, health care workers make up a non-trivial portion of that 1%. Money going in circles
I can't believe we aren't going to get our 2.33B of TARP money back from CIT.
What interest rate were they paying again? They must have been a risky company, surely we were charging them a rate commensurate with their risk?
Which of the states that formerly composed California is Rob Dawg the governor of?
Yo Dawg, I hear there is a governor recall process in CA. You know you want to.
California got greedy, and get-rich-quick schemes took over the economy, first the dot.com madness and then the real estate bubble.
Truthfully, I think it goesa back a bit further... That's why the State Motto is "Eureka!"
What happened was California got "comfortable." Rested on its' laurels if you will. Another problem is very clear to me but will piss people off until I explain. The State legislature became a single party Democrat body. Now, hold on. While I believe most of the problems facing the State are directly attributable to the liberal Democrats that have a stranglehold State policies at every level I think it is the nature or single party politics not that they are Democrats in this case that is responsible. Were it the Republicans that had staged staged a coup we'd be facing an entirely different set of equally bad problems. As it is we are high tax, business hostile, anti-productivity, expansionist government spendthrifts. Short of a revolution or less likely court mandated redistricting plan that won't change either.
After the revolution I plan on using SLO as my new Capital of El Centro de Kalifornia. Stretching from San Vincente Blvd at the base of the Pacific Palisades to my summer Palace at San Simeon, encompassing the Santa Monica Mtns., Santa Lucia Range, San Rafael Mtns inland to as far as Taft, my
benevolent dictatorship will rule in peace and prosperity. After the rotting corpses of any remaining lawyers are dealt with my first act will be to outlaw public transit. My second act will be to replace all these damn compound Spanish place names. Henceforth Santa Barbara will be simply known as "Babs."
Regards from the temporary exile HQ in "Cam,"
El Roberto de Dawg
aka. El Supremo de Nueva Kalifornia
[first published Oct '07]
But is GE still solvent?
According to the fed & treasury alphabet soup... 'yup'.
A continuation of a bailout IS a bailout.
Especially when you allow companies to "give back" TARP money but still keep the federal guarantee on debt, allowing them to have record bonuses.
I agree that continuations are bailouts, but they are politically very different beasts. THat is what my posts above are getting at: There is a chance to cause a break with the past.
The tone here in DC is a bit different than last year. I'm not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised either.
All Hail, the Dawg!
Isn't this the 2nd big small biz loan maker to die? Who is loaning to small biz? If you do service you might be okay. If you have to buy inventory then I guess life is not as green
Kung.Fu.Panda
"Strangely, health care workers make up a non-trivial portion of that 1%. Money going in circles "
~~~~
Not the workers that do the work ...
Get ready for a slew of 37.5 hour / week employment gigs.
The Arnold said "They have a plan." All is well. It really is a recovery! Unless you are Michigan
a surtax on the richest 1 percent.
It's not a exactly a tax on the richest 1%; it's a tax on income over a certain amount, which correlates to the top 1%. However, many in the richest 1% are either in tax shelters or generate income not taxable by the IRS (e.g. muni bond interest).
Fine distinction, but once again, the uber-wealthy are going to skate...
OT: funny how the (inter)national mood swings on the fortunes of the stock market. a week ago, when the S&P was dipping into the 870s, the MSM was looking to unemployment and getting all pessimistic, today, all you here is happy happy talk.
Of course BB knows this...
Thanks. I'll be sure to hire gnomes to run the banks. Coins will bear the likeness of coastal sea creatures. Silver Urchins, Golden Otters and the Platinum Abalone.
Dawg,
Surf bunnies! Take a hint. Make a mint
Coins will bear the likeness of coastal sea creatures. Silver Urchins, Golden Otters and the Platinum Abalone.
I assume that paper currency will then bear the likeness of famous Pigs?
My kind appreciate it.
But no Troll Roads, ok?
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Wed, 7/15/2009 - 5:11 pm
Dawg,
Surf bunnies! Take a hint. Make a mint
Gilt edged negotiable blondes?
Or the Paris Hilton Buck
$5 for Marilyn
$10 for Hepburn
$20 for Betty Paige
After the revolution I plan on using SLO as my new Capital of El Centro de Kalifornia.
SLO is awesome but I question your choice of Hearst castle in San Simeon.
It's a tad garish and undignified.
What about Atascadero State Hospital?
Already fortified for the counter-revolution.
cit does financing for fingerhut among other and i think for dell uk and dell canada. didnt think they would get any help but suprised they let them know so soon, usually it is a weekend thing.
"It's not a exactly a tax on the richest 1%; it's a tax on income over a certain amount, which correlates to the top 1%. However, many in the richest 1% are either in tax shelters or generate income not taxable by the IRS (e.g. muni bond interest).
Fine distinction, but once again, the uber-wealthy are going to skate... "
~~~
It's a start ... they could always add it to the Alt Min Tax ~ !
gabyjan, probably why DELL announced they were looking for new financing arrangements...
nova i thought dell(us) got away in 07. lot of jobs on the line little jobs little people.
WSJ: A Treasury official says the U.S. expects to lose its $2.3 billion TARP investment in CIT.
lot of jobs on the line little jobs little people
They're only little compared to Americans.
In Asia, they're average height.
now is that suprising?
WSJ: A Treasury official says the U.S. expects to lose its $2.3 billion TARP investment in CIT.
What?! I was told that we the taxpayers were going to be paid back, with a profit even!
I still think CIT will get a bail out. Maybe that is what will happen over the weekend.
We all know who is losing money. Who made $2.3b on the deal? They owed it to someone. Someone who got paid.
Broward,
That's meme.
gabyjan, I don't know. That was what I remember seeing the other day. Perhaps the US financier is someone else who is in trouble also?
"I still think CIT will get a bail out. Maybe that is what will happen over the weekend. "
Unless Sheila gets to their bank first...
See, that's what happens when you don't double salaries and bonuses.
2.3 billion? That is not bad.
cit is the lead domino and it will follow the chain all around the world. or the chain will follow it all around the world. or whatever.
is this the first actual loss from the TARP?
(besides the other ones that are hidden in plain sight)
man, I didn't realize wednesday is the new Sunday
first CIT, then Cali
monte's ankle
the first one that someone noticed
The Treasury official just gave a reason to double-down to "save the taxpayers' money."
Likewise, Obama said he would spend $1.5T on health reform to save money.
Saving money is awfully expensive.
I am not sure how much longer we can afford to save so much money.
Bubble/Bailout Glossary:
"Save" = Spend
BFTh. Sheila would be playing hardball.
That could be allot of fun to watch. Tim & Sheila going toe to toe.
Didn't we also lose money in the TARP on GM and Chrysler?
Looks like I was off by a few hours on my budget prediction:
California Near Budget Deal, Slashing Money for Schools and Cities - NY Times
I predict that over the next two quarters, Mish will become increasingly grouchy and outspoken over the "impossibility" of government ever doing anything right, and that his investment batting average will decline significantly.
This level of performance clearly deserves a name. I propose the following: Bair Balls.
As used in a sentence: The government's decision to allow CIT to fail required considerable Bair Balls.
is GE aig?
Are we in a bair market?
from the ny link
Public colleges and universities across the state have already prepared for millions of dollars in cutbacks by furloughing employees. Statewide furloughs of three days a month for government employees are likely to continue through the rest of the fiscal year.
Local governments, which have already suffered their own losses of tax revenues, will probably lose far more as a result of the deal when the state begins dipping into tax streams on which they depend, including gas taxes. Cities can try to borrow the amount they are losing, and the agreement calls for the state to repay them over three years, but many of the weaker localities may face the prospect of defaulting on their bonds.
Who will have the Bair Balls to put an end to the Bear Chits?
List of banks participating in the TARP (as of 6-24-09)
This level of performance clearly deserves a name. I propose the following: Bair Balls.
As used in a sentence: The government's decision to allow CIT to fail required considerable Bair Balls.
Just thinking out loud: does "bairchit" mean anything?
Didn't we also lose money in the TARP on GM and Chrysler?
Not technically, as i believe the loans were rolled into equity,
Its a bitch not to be Goldman
Just thinking out loud: does "bairchit" mean anything?
Only if it's in the woods.
Sometimes, I wonder what hole in the ground posters have been living in.
All "fair share" health insurance plans and proposals have an exemption for the smallest businesses. Massachusetts does. San Francisco does.
Every proposal for the federal plan that's been made by anybody has a fair share exemption, and most also have a small business federal tax credit.
It's designed to help small businesses afford govt.-mandated costs. What's your problem with that?
Hrm, maybe I should have loaded up on Cali bonds today. No doubt they will skyrocket tomorrow.
I predict that over the next two quarters, Mish will become increasingly grouchy and outspoken over the "impossibility" of government ever doing anything right, and that his investment batting average will decline significantly.
So, handicapped by bad hair, his life will become a nightmare? Ending in an all caps missive that rips GW Bush a new one?
Well done, RD. What's next?
What do you suppose it means that the situation of CIT has deteriorated in the last few days?
I think it means the govt finally had a good look at CIT's books.
Ending in an all caps missive that rips GW Bush a new one?
I refuse to Denningerfy Mish.
I remember back in the early 2000s that there was some set of requirements that kicked in when your employee head count rose above 50. Needless to say, many businesses went to great lengths to keep the head count at or below 50. Quite a boon for consultants.
A great incentive to subdivide a company into two separate businesses.
is ge's books any better?
are ge's books any better? sorry
Here are some conclusions that I take away from this lack of action today:
mr beach
how many do we have now?
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Wed, 7/15/2009 - 5:35 pm
from the ny link
...Cities can try to borrow the amount they are losing, and the agreement calls for the state to repay them over three years, but many of the weaker localities may face the prospect of defaulting on their bonds.
That's the money Oxnard was using to finance their leaseback arrangement for their own city streets. Ruh roh.
barfly (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 7/15/2009 - 5:41 pm
[impending California budget agreement] Well done, RD. What's next?
The Cities are an unpredictable bunch. I expect the gas tax diversion is going to be their target of opportunity.
The Family Medical Leave Act, enacted after a woman travelled across the continent to testify before Congress that she couldn't leave home to go to work.
Well that and remember CIT is about Mainst not Walltreet
Hopefully this pig burns down and takes plenty of loser businesses with it. If a business can't survive on its own cash flow, the world is better off without it.
hollywoodhack
i think that is what this board tried to tell tptb before the first tarp
...the U.S. expects to lose entire TARP investment in CIT ($2.3 billion). Is this anything like the rate of return Hank Paulson promised us?
Eight years on and what do we have to show for it as a nation?
Eight years without a diaper head causing trouble in this hemisphere.
So is it a good time to cash out my small and mid caps?