As Foreclosure Activity Surges, Obama Considers Rental Option
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Tue, 07/14/2009 - 11:47am (244 comments)
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Recent Recommendations
Renting is for losers.
excaliBare = When no more equity can be pulled out
okay this is it, why should I keep paying my mortgage...give me a compelling reason?
Under one idea being discussed, delinquent homeowners would surrender ownership of their homes but would continue to live in the property for several years ...
I thought this was already the norm.
As Foreclosure Activity Surges, Obama Considers Rental Option
I thought Obama was going to rent the Lincoln Bedroom or the 7th Fleet.
Why pay to "rent" your home when you can not pay and banks won't evict you for 1 or 2 years anyways?
Public housing. There's change we can believe in. We're all Section 8 now.
What about the ownership society? This is not going to help Bush's legacy.
GS memo to the fed: The surge in foreclosures is working!
The states can not afford it. I suppose the gov could make grants to states to help keep the safety net functioning somewhat. Something like this:
Fairfax County, VA July 13, 2009
Today the county board approved funding for the "Cone" program. People who previously would have been housed at county homeless shelters will now be issued a red plastic traffic cone. County Supervisor Mark Delantis, spoke about this program at a news conference today.
"These cones will be important to homeless of any kind. People who sleep in their cars will now be able to reserve popular parking spots near the mall. Those with out a vehicle will find them extremely handy for reserving the right tree."
Also announced was the closing of all shelters due to lack of funding.
Basel: I thought this was already the norm.
Politicians try never to let the inevitable happen without them.
"surrender ownership"...HaHAAHAA haaaa...The president is a comedian
Just thinking out loud, probably wrong. This has to be tied with increasing unemployment...there must really be a timebomb ticking out there and we have to keep unemployment a non-devastating event. You lose your job, but you will still have room and board...
Bubble/Bailout Glossary:
"Ownership Society" = Communism (ends with state ownership of society)
Nice. But who is going to pay for my cable?
I have a better idea: how about principal reductions?
WHERE IS THE CRAMDOWN LEGISLATION, OBAMA, YOU FRAUD?
" Lobbyist Ben Dover (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 3:49 pm
To late Hoops all levels of corruption will have their effect including the welfare queens. They are there to take just like the evil corps and the rest. Who was suppose to be watching the store? "
The difference between welfare queens and corporate welfare queens is who pays for the elections. Just sayin'.....
So you go at least 3 months with no mortgage payments then the bank takes it back at a huge loss, and then rents it out to you at a price you can afford?
What a load of crap.
If Obama seriously starts paying these f&*kers mortgages....I am going to go buy the biggest f$%king house I can find and then never make a single payment.
Why continue to be the a$$hole who rents and pays his bills?
I'm an Obama guy, but you'll see more stuff like this. Realization has hit that election 2010 is going to be a real bitch.
The next step after moral hazards aren't anymore gets pretty ugly.
Waitaminit... So, no one has the resources or the motivation to evict you from a foreclosed home, but presumably they do for a rental.
OK.
Maybe that is the trick and then they will declare that the program applies only to legacy deadbeats.
Let them eat Cramer.
In unrelated good news:
Unwind of FRB support to Euro banking system
Per ZH, the FRB has decreased down the swap lines extended to European central banks from $600B to $100B. I think some AIG payouts were part of what allowed this to happen. Otherwise Deutsche Bank, UBS, and others would have collapsed. Less direct exposure to the Euro banking system.
Does anyone NOT believe this guy is a fraud?
"As Foreclosures Surge"
EDITORIAL; As Foreclosures Surge ... - NY Times
Published: May 3, 2009
The Obama administration sat by last week as 12 Senate Democrats joined 39 Senate Republicans to block a vote on an amendment that would have allowed bankruptcy judges to modify troubled mortgages.
Senator Obama campaigned on the provision. And President Obama made its passage part of his antiforeclosure plan. It would have been a very useful prod to get lenders to rework bad loans rather than leaving the modification to a judge.
But when the time came to stand up to the banking lobbies and cajole yes votes from reluctant senators — the White House didn’t. When the measure failed, there wasn’t even a statement of regret.
There is an increasingly angry tone creeping into this board.
I propose some posters should take a spare old PC monitor out to the garage and say what must about Obama and GS while slugging the hell out of it with a sledgehammer, until the hammer breaks in half.
It's not an original idea, but it might work.
Officials are also considering whether the government should make mortgage payments on behalf of borrowers who cannot keep up with their home loans, tapping an unused portion of a $50 billion housing aid kitty.
As part of this plan, jobless borrowers might receive a housing stipend along with regular unemployment benefits, the sources said.
Wouldn't that $50B be better spent paying the homeowner to do something productive; then the homeowner could use the income to live somewhere more affordable? Oh wait, this is $50B that's going to the lenders.
Back to the Alice quotes this morning.....when did we go down the rabbit hole? Least the Mad Hatter had a mercury excuse...
"I think events will force Mr. Obama to assert some real leadership and take the national debate on our predicament in another direction, even if it is an uncomfortable direction for him and everybody else. Despite the massive disappointment being expressed by so many Obama voters these days, I believe the president will redeem himself before long."
That's Kunstler this week.
Even the doomiest want to believe in the change they can believe in.
I think events will consume the prez, whose flailing will be astonishing.
The difference between welfare queens and corporate welfare queens is who pays for the elections. Just sayin'.....
An earlier poster posted and story that 40% of Americans don't pay Fed taxes. Based on that and the Community activist who influence welfare queens and other low income to vote, what do you guess they vote for? More for themselves?
The honest thing to do is inspect the little guys in a mass as we do the big guys in a small mass. Same effects. Just because I see both as part of the problem seems many just put a socially acceptable blind eye. I am for being a helper not a enabler.
Washington DC, July 14, 2010
President Obama, speaking from a podium in the Rose Garden to day announced the "Weber Kettle" program. All unemployed Americans would be able to receive a new Weber Kettle free at the local food bank. He said:
"I know many of you are living in homes with out power. With our new kettle program you will now be able to make the grilled cheese sandwhich again. It is hard times America. That is why, in partnership with Exxon Mobil we will begin mailing charcol lighter coupons to every Anerican household."
"
ghostfaceinvestah (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 3:57 pm
Does anyone NOT believe this guy is a fraud?
.......
But when the time came to stand up to the banking lobbies and cajole yes votes from reluctant senators — the White House didn’t. When the measure failed, there wasn’t even a statement of regret. "
I guess he didn't have the cojones to cajole yes votes from reluctant senators
"I propose some posters should take a spare old PC monitor out to the garage and say what must about Obama and GS while slugging the hell out of it with a sledgehammer, until the hammer breaks in half."
Wasn't there a video posted of some guy doing just that recently?
In the Internet age, you can even go nuts vicariously...
nova,
funny, but by that time charcoal lighter will be outlawed as a terrorist weapon of choice.
force Mr. Obama to assert some real leadership
Generally speaking, circumstances can't force anyone to show real leadership. Though they may function as a test to see who has it and who doesn't. At this point I'm not holding out a lot of hope for decisive action from Obama. It's too bad - I was never a great fan of his, but I was optimistic that he'd make some good moves on civil liberties and transparency, and maybe call some corporate villains to account. No such luck.
Here in small town America I have started rental shopping and to my surprise (not really) there are many houses titled in FNMA. People still living in them. Why rent when you can have the cow for free! Obama Rentals more government control and it starts out sounding socially good but will end badly.
"Wouldn't that $50B be better spent paying the homeowner to do something productive; then the homeowner could use the income to live somewhere more affordable? Oh wait, this is $50B that's going to the lenders."
Exactly, at least someone gets it.
This isn't about bailing out homeowners, it is about bailing out banks.
What is the worst thing that could happen to a bank? The borrower walks away from the mortgage, and the bank is forced to (finally) realize their loss.
What is the best thing that could happen to a bank? The borrower (or someone for the borrower) continues to pay on an underwater mortgage.
Now you all figure out who all these programs are meant to support.
Cramdown legislation would have actually helped the borrower, as they would have been left with debt at a supportable level.
As part of this plan, jobless borrowers might receive a housing stipend along with regular unemployment benefits, the sources said.
This is waaaaay fucked up. Why O why are we differentiating between jobless homeowners and jobless non-homeowners? ARG!
nova,
LOL
Welcome to Hell.
Population:
YOU
I'm buying a home in detroit and going on unemployment if this takes place- I think I'll be in the black...
I expected a Single Griller system with one, big, centralized, national Weber grill.
McCain's campaign plan to use $300B to buy out mortgages and refinance them doesn't sound so outlandish these days.
Why O why are we differentiating between jobless homeowners and jobless non-homeowners?
When you buy a home you can't afford by way of an Option ARM or subprime mortgage, you also get anointed with the Secret Mark of the Middle Class, which means you're entitled to a certain amount of government protection lest you backslide and become one of the lumpenproletariat again. Anyway maximum homeownership is good for society, GW Bush himself said so.
(and uh yeah it's actually about the banks...)
@ ghostfaceinvestah (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:04 pm
"Wouldn't that $50B be better spent paying the homeowner to do something productive; then the homeowner could use the income to live somewhere more affordable? Oh wait, this is $50B that's going to the lenders."
This isn't about bailing out homeowners, it is about bailing out banks.
DING DING DING we have a winner
More financial engineering ponzi schemes from Wall St and Obamanomics will save the American way of life and dream
Favorite CR handles include:
That Barton Fink Feeling
Maury the Credit Responsibility Panda
Sigh.
This is good in the sense that most of these house-debtors should be renters, as they cannot afford their houses.
On the other hand, it's bad if the taxpayer takes on the losses on the mortgage, instead of the lenders/investors taking the loss. I think the general public will get just as angry as the folks on this board, if this proposal were to go through in that form.
McCain's campaign plan to use $300B to buy out mortgages and refinance them doesn't sound so outlandish these days.
~B2
I think it would be better if America owned America.... But where do we get the 300B from?
Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing...
Today in this unusually quiet suburb of Detroit a strange silence, a pall really, hung in the air. The quiet marred by the shrieks and wails coming from random houses jolted our newscrew as they fearfully walked the streets. Streets that were empty. Finally Channel 4 News was able to locate a small boy sobbing on a street corner.
Channel 4 News: What has happened here lad? Was it the flu? Did Canada invade? Tell us!
Small boy: The mailman ran over the last squirrel! We are doomed......
And so the last link in the safety net was flattened by Joseph Kabrosky.
" Lobbyist Ben Dover (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:00 pm
The difference between welfare queens and corporate welfare queens is who pays for the elections. Just sayin'.....
An earlier poster posted and story that 40% of Americans don't pay Fed taxes. "
Actually, the bottom 40% received a negative tax (earned income tax credits) and the net effect was that the bottom 60% don't pay taxes, since the taxes paid by the middle 20% are canceled by the negative tax returned to the bottom 40%. That said, the original comment by Hoopajoops was : "Let's cut the banks and corporations loose. No more government subsidies, including mineral rights. These welfare queens have gotten too lazy." He was calling these larger corporations welfare queens and recipients of corporate welfare, or at least that's how I read it. Of course, I'm getting old, and sometimes I get these brain farts, so......
Going swimming with the fishes...
AMF
This is waaaaay fucked up. Why O why are we differentiating between jobless homeowners and jobless non-homeowners? ARG!
Because one provides cashflow to investors and the other does not.
And there it is ... that squishy, thumpy, flapping sound you all just heard was, finally, TSHTF. For reals, y'all.
Things must be very, very bad for the Fed and the Administration to speak openly about such high levels of unemployment, which will ensure high levels of bankruptcy, poverty, hunger, and homelessness. Oh, and armed robbery if the safety nets fail.
Add in the ridiculous succession of lunatic non-solutions, and we are indeed down the rabbit hole.
Happy Bastille Day, everyone! This sucker's goin' down!
GW Bush himself said so.
Clinton pushed the same idea. None of them (including obmama) said anything about paying for them.
Because one provides cashflow to investors and the other does not. ~Yalt
Only if O "saves" their job! LOL!
Pigged:
Yancey Ward (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 2:38 pm
They can only be used if the two parties (long and short) agree to it. If the holder of the long position wishes, he can still take actual physical delivery. I don't really understand the big deal with this- most contracts are settled in cash anyway.
The settlement is the point.
There are more outstanding contracts on Gold, Silver, etc on the C(ri|o)mex than actual outstanding inventory. It is just a game of paper pushing/shuffling, and when you are expected to delivery physical gold instead of more paper, it puts a serious kink in the flow of paper. In other words, the commodities market is also over leveraged. In many ways, it is more leveraged than other markets because the pool of resources being traded is much, much, much shallower.
To resolve a contract using another means of paper is just another layer for the ponzi scheme.
Only if O saves their job! LOL!
No, he only needs to save their payment, not their job. It's important to preserve the mortgagor as a conduit to MBS investors; it doesn't really matter so much whether that conduit involves an employer or instead involves direct government aid.
Going to have to let them stay and pay rent or at least send in coupons or something. Do we really want them on the street? Fighting with racoons for our garbage. Standing silently outside the grocery store watching as we wheel the cart to the car. Their children following us whispering "Please, a lunchable and and pepsi sir...."
So much for free markets.
I feel sorry for any residential landlords that will have to go head to head against Uncle Sam. Their tax dollars will be subsidizing their competitors. And who will determine the rent? Or will the government just keep lowering the rent (and forcing capitulation by landlords) to maintain 100% occupancy?
This is the most disgusting (and stupidest) thing Obama has come up with yet.
Cinco-X ,
I am dyslexic among other wonderful abilities. I see now it can be read two ways.b To me Welfare Queens are lower social group and the other is Corporate welfare. Any way they all have abused our country.
It's important to preserve the mortgagor as a conduit to MBS investors; it doesn't really matter so much whether that conduit involves an employer or instead involves direct government aid.
What's sick is that I have the impression regarding universal health care.
This lady wasn't too far off
Obama Is Going To Pay For My Gas And Mortgage!!!
YouTube - Obama Is Going To Pay For My Gas And Mortgage!!!
Si Se puede!
So what happens to Joe and Jane the renters? they run out of UE benefits and get kicked to the street? Crime does pay, Obama approved!
Some good news from Detroit: automakers move fast online with "Cash for Clunkers" search campaigns bit.ly/NukzK
Is there an equivalent for "Cash for Clunker Homes" ?
Oh wait....that's the Obama Rental Option
I don't think this will happen. O is ultimately going to have to do some FDR-esque direct government employment stuff. Check out the Powerpoint on Zero Hedge from yesterday....upcoming foreclosures due to Pay Options about to absolutely roar in 2010. Most of the 2011 and 2012 resets will now concentrate in 2010.
This sounds similar to the PPIP program.
1.) Home debtors are giving a get out of debt free card.
2.) Rest of us get to pump more money into the banks to "subsidize" the rent.
3.) Banks profit.
~miser
Yalt (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 8:15 pm
No, he only needs to save their payment, not their job. It's important to preserve the mortgagor as a conduit to MBS investors; it doesn't really matter so much whether that conduit involves an employer or instead involves direct government aid.
Instead of complicated tax codes and stimulus programs, it would be simpler if we dropped pretenses and Obama decides what the bottom line is for what each of us "should" have and types that number into our bank account while we all stay home.
yagij - that make sense. what do you think of this:
Total Market Value = total physical commodity x spot price x leverage
New spot price with no leverage if delivery is ever required = spot price x leverage
Now we need to figure out how much leverage is in the system....
From the last thread:
I can't imagine why anybody would start a business in the US now.
I can think of a good one... booth at the airport and at the border along the highway from Berdoo to Vegas that exchanges bear chits for dollars, once CA makes them legal tender.
Gotta figure the check-cashing places will have the urban business cornered.
nova - amen to that... people who want the system to crash havent ever been to India...
nades-
explain...
We have 20 million vacant homes. A puny portion of the labor force produces excess food and water.
This financial calamity is about fraud and greed not need.
" nades (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:09 pm
McCain's campaign plan to use $300B to buy out mortgages and refinance them doesn't sound so outlandish these days.
~B2
I think it would be better if America owned America.... But where do we get the 300B from? Wink"
We found a trillion so far to borrow; what's another 300 billion?
I am already planning on dropping food off at the front door of my neighbor. She is a welfare queen who worked 30 years and can't find work now. Her daughter got laid off last week. She has 2 kids. Kick their asses into the street the freakin parasites.
Instead of complicated tax codes and stimulus programs, it would be simpler if Obama decided what the bottom line is for what each of us "should" have and type that number into our bank account while we all stay home.
That proposal utterly fails to solve the problem. How does the money cashflow into financial assets if it simply appears in your bank account? A lot of it would be wasted on unimportant stuff like food and clothing instead of being used to service debt.
I should clarify: by admitting to 10 (%), or perhaps 10.5, they (varoius .govs) can be assumed to be internally predicting a (slightly less rosy) possible scenario in which they might envision 12, 12.5, or even 13. Their pupils are constricting ... small droplets of moisture are rolling down the backs of thier necks, under those starched white collars. A small tremor in the voice, as they propose taxpayer-subsidized rent payments to the banks on behalf of the unemployed ... They are beginning to show fear, and that can be dangerous.
Mobs, much like wolverines and locusts, can smell fear.
which comment...
)
(some should be obvious some might be full of holes!
That is not a welfare queen. STTTTTRECH!
Can we call it the...
Bailout
Underwater
Landholder
Loans
Stabilize
Housing
Investment
Tax?
~miser
We are not India. Or Chindia or a 3rd world nation. We produce in abundance. This financial crisis is about greed, not need. We have a distribution problem, not a production problem.
That said, I don't see how you can go wrong with conservation.
From the last thread:
I can't imagine why anybody would start a business in the US now.
I can think of a good one... booth at the airport and at the border along the highway from Berdoo to Vegas that exchanges bear chits for dollars, once CA makes them legal tender.
Gotta figure the check-cashing places will have the urban business cornered.
The point is with the current deficits the only way the US government can realistically continue to function over the next several years is to confiscate essentially all business profits - consumers certainly aren't going to be able to fund government operations.
The only alternative is to cut spending.
If businessmen come to realize that there's no point to operating their businesses in the near future, they might decide to stop doing so, leading to a cascading collapse of business and tax revenue.
Obama's idea creates further disconnect between demand and supply in housing. This helps NO one.
He should be penalizing banks for sitting on foreclosures.
People will only be loosing their old unaffordable homes and moving across the street to a fresh on-the-market foreclosure of their neighbor which will be available now at a much more affordable price....which will come with a mortgage that they can pay albeit at a higher mortgage rate.
What happens when wages fall and house prices do not?
That is not a welfare queen. STTTTTRECH!
The same people that gutted the safety net are going watch as their world falls with it.
Angry Saver - I'm more referring to a massive 'poor class' with their needs unmet. Regardless of how we get a good percentage of the population scared for their basic requirements the outcome is the same. Violence, civil unrest, danger, ignorance. Not pretty...
What happens when wages fall and house prices do not?
2007
Violence, civil unrest, danger, ignorance. Not pretty...
Detroit?
Obama's idea creates further disconnect between demand and supply in housing. This helps NO one.
He should be penalizing banks for sitting on foreclosures.
Yep.
Cheap houses lets everyone own a house, solves the inventory problem, and preserves homeownership. There may be significant turnover in homeownership, but in the end we won't be replacing private homeowners with indentured servants.
He has to know that accepting this presidency was political suicide given the shit pile he inherited, why not do what is right as opposed to what is popular?
Is there even one ounce of courage left in all of D.C?
Tim - you pray for a currency crisis / massive inflation and produce the required goods from with in the borders.
Intel blew away numbers and guidance--kinda Goldman Sachish.
Value businesses can be started now due to the older blotted expenses can not be met. Simple as a plumber and a helper can do quit well with a cell phone and a truck. Equipment is cheap and plentiful but the work is hard. the advantage is customers cost is lower and your bottom line is better.That is where many Americans will have to start and may end well when things do change.
He has to know that accepting this presidency was political suicide given the shit pile he inherited, why not do what is right as opposed to what is popular?
I think his idealism lead him to believe that his beliefs were practical and could somehow save the country.
Our biggest safety net is for financial fraud. $14 trillion in baillouts and guarantees were needed to preserve our "free" markets.
Free markets, what a joke.
I'm surprised Goldman's profits were'nt bigger. Seriously. Borrow at zero % and then manipulate markets via opaque credit default swaps.
Cheap houses would occur without government action so Obama declares that government inaction is not an option.
Bubble/Bailout Glossary:
"Stabilize" = Sabotage solution
we will not monetize - political suicide ? He made it to the top... Cant be king of the world any more....
..........
Tim - re Detroit - yep. I use to like Eminem tho LOL!
"He has to know that accepting this presidency was political suicide given the shit pile he inherited, why not do what is right as opposed to what is popular?"
I think he is an idiot being played like a fiddle, while being led to believe he is following his own agenda.
I think his idealism lead him to believe that his beliefs were practical and could somehow save the country.
Are we talking about George W Bush or Barack Obama?
OT:
Some food for thought about valuations in today’s stock market:
Whole Foods Market (WFMI), share Price = $20.46
That’s a 191% gain since hitting its 52-week low of $7.04 back in March.
PE Ratio = 32
All that for a grocery store chain with Quarterly Earnings Growth (yoy) of -11.8%.
All that with its high-end customer base staring at rising foreclosure and unemployment.
Urban Outfitters (URBN), share price = $21.06
This is a retailer whose share price was $2 when the bubble started back in 2003.
PE Ratio = 19
Quarterly Earnings Growth (yoy) of -27.6%.
Don’t even get me started on Amazon (AMZN) with a PE ratio of almost 53.
(all PEs are trailing twelve month earnings, all figures from Yahoo Finance).
What happens when communities hit the tipping point of more foreclosures than people paying?
What happens to the tax base?
What happens when they have a roof but can't afford the power to keep it warm?
What happens when the BMW needs an oil change?
— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —
For a Constitutional lawyer somebody seems to be forgetting the basis for those noble laws.
Intel blew away numbers and guidance--kinda Goldman Sachish.
Today on "Let's Hose the Shorts"......
Congress, Europe, China, and the Middle East did not bow before Obama's hand-waving charisma after all.
Nades Worse than Detroit will be Stockton CA. At least Det will have water
Basel I think we are talking about Congress too
INTC expects revenues to rise in the Fall. Doubtful considered Avg selling prices fell within the 2nd quarter. .
I took the Financial Personality test the other day.
I am CRAP. Guess that is what is to be expected from a renter.
Credit
Rich
Asset
Poor
It seems that their will be a new class of homedebtors through this Obama program.
They may be called DIRT.
Debt
Impaired
Renting
Taxpayer
~miser
Intel blew away numbers and guidance--kinda Goldman Sachish.
What does DELL use as a processor? One the biggest consumers of chips was the auto industry. Must be a spring again.
Better get started... Just found out our Marina Del Ray ocean front rental just got foreclosed on; owners purchased it in Jan 2006 for $4.2 Million. Got our deposit back but I now have 3 weeks to find another rental. It's about to get real ugly...
Nova,
Two direct questions.
Neighbor after 30 years has no safety net of her own? Husband died?
Where is the daughters husband and support in this scenario?
Details need to be examined to be honestly decided.
WTF?!
What about people who are renting now and trying to scrape up enough to buy one of these houses? Seriously, if they float this, O has lost my vote.
unearthly - who'd you rent from Mother Teressa? (Got our deposit back.... I'm still waiting for my deposit from a CA landlord from a year and half ago....)
Seriously, if they float this, O has lost my vote.
He's already sworn in. He doesn't need your vote.
Pretty much the same reason why "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" hasn't been repealed. He doesn't care, he doesn't have to.
I agree...no one should offer food to a neighbor without carefully examining all the details of the neighbor's situation.
" Seriously, if they float this, O has lost my vote."
Cadillac buyer is born every minute
Ben.
IShe has been single for the 20 plus years I have known her. I have never asked. I have never seen any men there. The daughter I don't know. She worked and lived with her Mom for about 4 or 5 years now.
I know one thing. She went from a strong personality to one that is scared, badly.
Nades,
My point is that if the masses can't afford high priced houses and other goods, then lower prices are the order of the day. The assets are already produced. Articficially keeping goods off the market at lower/affordable prices in order to preserve faux wealth will be the spark for civil unrest imo.
It's one thing not to have (like India), it's another to have and not use in order to protect faux wealth (unearned privilege).
"There may be significant turnover in homeownership"
Sure from the stupid bubble chasers, to the frugal renters. As it should be.
"I think his idealism lead him to believe that his beliefs were practical and could somehow save the country."
Are we talking about George W Bush or Barack Obama?
They're not materially different.
Both live in fantasy worlds of their own making and have little or no contact with the real one.
No, if she tells me they have no food in the house and that the kids are hungry. She will get food from me.
AS - totally concur... We're reading the same page of the same book... you're about a paragraph or two ahead of me tho...
But it sure is fun to pretend you're rich tho!
"Seriously, if they float this, O has lost my vote."
What is the alternative? What would McCain/Palin have done differently?
Short Courage,
All your stock examples are bargains compared to the broad indexes:
Russel 2000 - no p/e as earnings are negative.
S&P 500 - current p/e > 300, expected to be negative as of 9/30/09 (1st time ever!)
What is the alternative? What would McCain/Palin have done differently?
Blown up Iran.... At least last depression a war worked... Might have worked this time too.... (Note I hate them both)
The deposit was paid by credit card and held by the booking agent; something like 5% of the weekly rental price.
I agree...no one should offer food to a neighbor without carefully examining all the details of the neighbor's situation.
I am not social services. I am not god.
If my neighbor is hungry, her kids hungry, and I can't give them food then I am as bad as any banker.
Well he needs it again 2012 doesn't he?
Then there is 2010. I hope the Dem party comes up with some decent people to run against the incumbants because everyone I know if determined to see Fienstein and Boxer gone. These are pissed small R folks, these are moderate dems all the way over to green party folks.
Tim, I drive a Civic H and my bike, k thanks~
reported a second-quarter loss of $398 million, or 7 cents a share, compared with a profit of $1.6 billion, or 28 cents a share for the year-earlier period. Revenue was $8 billion, down from $9.5 billion for the same quarter last year. Adjusted income, which excludes the impact of a fine imposed by European Commission, was 18 cents a share. Analysts had expected the Santa Clara, Calif.-based chip giant to report earnings of 8 cents a share, on revenue of $7.3 billion, according to a consensus survey by FactSet Research.
they reported a loss...
thier revenue was down 1.5 billion..if thats blowing away numbers, then the girls out by BSR's ranch are really blowing away members...
I've got a Hoopariddle for you all:
Q: What do you call it when someone owes you a debt, and you pay them interest the longer they owe it?
..
..
A: A federal reserve note. A.K.A. a dollar bill.
Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:38 pm
"There may be significant turnover in homeownership"
Sure from the stupid bubble chasers, to the frugal renters. As it should be.
Not yet. There were a lot of people who didn't get burned badly enough to scare them away from real estate a an investment class. And there's an even larger contingent of desperate gamblers ready to double down with the rent money.
What would McCain/Palin have done differently?
Mooseburgers instead of squirrelburgers.
I really, really hoped that post of mine didn't need a /snark tag.
Sorry yalt. I was busy getting righteous.
Yalt - I missed it too... Sorry bro....
Gotta run....
Not yet. There were a lot of people who didn't get burned badly enough to scare them away from real estate a an investment class. And there's an even larger contingent of desperate gamblers ready to double down with the rent money.
And at the rate we are going, we'll never get there. (Yes, I'm impatient.)
Doesn't matter which class one puts themselves, we are all under water. This is truly sad .
Bank Holiday!!!!!!!!!!!
That's when we are all underwater.
"There were a lot of people who didn't get burned badly enough to scare them away from real estate a an investment class. And there's an even larger contingent of desperate gamblers ready to double down with the rent money."
I sure hope they end up being knife-catchers and bag-holders.
ac (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 3:39 pm
"I think his idealism lead him to believe that his beliefs were practical and could somehow save the country."
Are we talking about George W Bush or Barack Obama?
They're not materially different.
Both live in fantasy worlds of their own making and have little or no contact with the real one.
Let's see how that works out.
ac, in the New World Order, You Create Your Own Reality!
Angry Saver,
Yeah, I agree about the index PE ratios..
But some companies might at least expect to see their earnings recover, so the index PEs are a tough call. If you use smoothed earnings, they're still above normal, but not outrageously so...
Not so with these bubble retailers, in my humble opinion... I see their customer base getting hammered starting now, as the housing bust moves further into the nicer neighborhoods, and more folks realize they can't afford to shop at Whole Foods, or URBN'shigh-end stores (Anthropologie and Free People).
Does anyone here remember John McCain's proposal?
Why did we hold the election, again?
No need to apologize. You just pounded something into my head that I've been trying very hard not to understand.
since I don't own yet, can I at least default on my grad school loan?
whole foods has wild oats to massage its "earnings."
since I don't own yet, can I at least default on my grad school loan?
Defaulting is easy. Discharging, on the other hand, isn't.
I have a unique talent of being picked by panhandlers for a target...always I am starving, I need money. Long time ago, I stopped giving money and offered to buy lunch or dinner or breakfast for the individual in question...short story no one takes me up on it, and I usually get cursed at. Last year, a man stopped me in at a Carl's Junior in Wichita Falls, said he and his wife hadn't eaten in three days and were waiting for a bus to Atlanta...bus station being next door, I said well my family and I are stopping for lunch, you can join us...my surprise he and his wife did, and they were hungry. Conversation was awkward, people don't do to well in that kind of a situation, but we made it through, and the man was very grateful. I gave him a 20 (all I could afford) for down the road. This year, I was stopped at a sandwich joint by a family of four, two young children...they took me up on the offer, and I bought lunch there too. Turns out they were just kicked out of their home, no savings, going to a shelter...(gave them 50.00 and a job tip) Last month, a gentleman tried to sell me his old 8 track deck at a gas station for money to buy gas. Empty, no money...did not look like he had eaten for days. Bought him lunch, filled his car up...now maybe these people are all in dire straits because of bad choices in life, but I saw a need in these cases. I don't go to church, don't tithe, but I do try to help those who come into my path.
Ok.. my comment earlier about the new government soviet of the people taking over privately held property was a joke, it wasn't supposed to be a policy proposal for this administration.
The most important and number #1 question regarding this plan is.. will it help Goldman Sachs ?
Yeah, imagine a McCain/Palin administration. We'd be bombing Iran to the sound of the Beach Boys too. And think of Palin. Sheesh!
earnings are back this afternoon, animal spirits ready to run wild. maybe Phil was right and this recession was all mental?
Nova
Then you are a very good neighbor as America used to have. This brings the point of we being our brothers keeper and not the government. I bet she will respect you and reciprocate with a special thank you. Her fear and pain will be i bet may be a good lesson for the rough future we all will have for some time. Helping her is not enabling.
My garden after being hail pounded will produce a less bountiful crop but the excess will go to our senior center.
JP (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:46 pm
Not yet. There were a lot of people who didn't get burned badly enough to scare them away from real estate a an investment class. And there's an even larger contingent of desperate gamblers ready to double down with the rent money.
And at the rate we are going, we'll never get there. (Yes, I'm impatient.)
Capitulation this year or next? No idea. Capitulation? Yes, absolutely. There were two possible ways of avoiding capitulation; price inflation or rent increases. Neither is possible in time to make a difference. Even if one or both were coming in time the recent housing interlocutions of the administration have erased any possible impact.
Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 3:38 pm
Nades,
My point is that if the masses can't afford high priced houses and other goods, then lower prices are the order of the day. The assets are already produced. Articficially keeping goods off the market at lower/affordable prices in order to preserve faux wealth will be the spark for civil unrest imo.
It's one thing not to have (like India), it's another to have and not use in order to protect faux wealth (unearned privilege).
Since the ponzi-level growth has stopped, now the owner/investor class gets to sit on their physical assets and watch them depreciate, regardless whether they deflate in financial terms. When no one else can afford either to buy or finance those assets, they will just have each other as trading partners. Of course they aren't makin' more land...
Yagij,
It may well be that there isn't enough actual physical to cover expiration if enough longs take actual delivery- but, that is the point, enough people have to actually want to do this to expose the Ponzi. So far, I don't see it happening. Now, if Comex actually rules that settling in ETFs is allowed over the objection of a long contract holder, then the gig is up. I have been watching for a failure in this market, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
For those interested in the AZ Anti-Deficiency law changes, check this:
ARIZONA’S ANTI-DEFICIENCY LAWS ARE CHANGING! - Marc McCain
I just wonder what I am going to do when that one neighbor becomes 3 or 4.
And, Basel Too did remember McCain's proposal! LOL!
pigpen,
Whose earnings are back, aside from Goldman Sucks?
Wake me up when companies start beating yoy earnings numbers, rather than just beating Analysts forecasts (which were set so low that they couldn't miss).
How is this even going to work? Is the federal government going to acquire the mortgage from the bank? Then accept lower payments to the point that it is affordable? What does this even mean?
Château d'If they are guilty of fraud...
bond girl: i think the Administration is waiting to hear back from Hyundai on the details.
Short, I agree analysts estimates are so low it is kind of embarrassing. Dell's numbers are awful so wondering how intel managed to do better than expected.
"Why continue to be the a$$hole who rents and pays his bills?"
Why, that would be me. Of course, I am the jacka$$ who voted for Obama, so I deserve to be sucker-punched over and over and over again.
........first the Administration adds 33-weeks to unemployment coverage. Now they will help you take care of your shelter.
Doesn't anyone see a danger in this? If the new FedGov Mommy owns your house, manufactures your car, and provides you with the paycheck you receive..........how can you possibly say NO to anything it wants to do? Welcome to your new world. Change you can believe in.
Our contemporaries 220 years ago were pumping out pamphlets daily for distribution amongst the hoi polloi...
Often filled with reasoned critical thinking, the "pamphleteers" were the blogs of their day.
Some were dozens of pages long.
ac, in the New World Order, You Create Your Own Reality! Let's see how that works out.
I'm quitting my job and playing online games for the rest of my life.
No need busting my ass to earn a living when somebody else can bust their ass to do it for me.
Often filled with reasoned critical thinking, the "pamphleteers" were the blogs of their day.
But a Paine to read...
GS's profit is smelly, maybe that's where the word corruption comes from.
Now we need to figure out how much leverage is in the system....
I think that the debate of PM leverage is the crux of the situation, and the leverage on the Comex is what makes the conversations about PMs, Goldbugs, etc get bogged down.
Wikipedia states: "In 2005 the World Gold Council estimated total global gold supply to be 3,859 tonnes and demand to be 3,754 tonnes, giving a surplus of 105 tonnes." Simple math says: 3,859 tonnes * 32 151 (troy oz.) = 124,070,709 troy oz. of gold * 925 US/oz (today's rate ) = 114,765,405,825 For the estimated total global gold supply in 2005, we don't even have enough gold to cover 20% of last fall's TARP. Gold futures on the Comex covers 100 troy oz., and their miNY covers 33 troy oz.
Figure out how much paper is in the system, how much physical is suppose to be in the system, and we could probably figure out the leverage part.
Black Star Ranch (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:02 pm
........first the Administration adds 33-weeks to unemployment coverage. Now they will help you take care of your shelter.
Doesn't anyone see a danger in this? If the new FedGov Mommy owns your house, manufactures your car, and provides you with the paycheck you receive..........how can you possibly say NO to anything it wants to do? Welcome to your new world. Change you can believe in.
BSR, again, You Create Your Own Reality, remember. Reality-according-to-Goldman, however, tends to have a bit more authority in the zero-sum gameworld.
paying mortgages on behalf of individuals would require an act of congress. There is currently no appropriation for this, and this isn't something that can be accomplished via FDIC guarantees or Fed programs.
Consider this leak to be a lead trial balloon, a political non-starter that will never happen.
I wish I hadn't got talked into that YAP ETF investment by the pesky salesman on the phone.
Oh quit whining...
You are getting to partcipate in history. No longer when Grandpa tells you about walking 3 miles to school each day - and how it was uphill both ways. Why now, throw back your chest like a man and say "I watched my life savings get wiped out to support the rich!"
And are they going to limit who they are going to do this for? I hear it is difficult to sell an estate these days....
ac (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:03 pm
ac, in the New World Order, You Create Your Own Reality! Let's see how that works out.
I'm quitting my job and playing online games for the rest of my life.
No need busting my ass to earn a living when somebody else can bust their ass to do it for me.
No, we must all work harder and for less, as half the population is depending on us now and that number is only growing. What's worse: THEY CAN ALL VOTE!
That will Create one hell of a Reality.
JD, Nova...back when those 'blogs' were being written the percentage of the total population that could read was small (i know the pamphlets weren't meant for the general population for the most part) now everyone can read but hardly anyone can comprehend...makes you wonder...
"would require an act of congress. "
How about an executive order, made possible by the provisions in the Patriot Act?
How bullish~! And INTC beat earnings estimates by a whopping 80%!
If I were a CEO I would drive estimates to $0.01 and then if they come in @ $0.02 THAT'S A 100% BEAT! Think the number of ways how the shills on CNBC could celebrate a 100% BEAT!!
It's hard to fathom that something as meaningless as the OJ trial held the entire country rapt for about a year, once upon a time.
BTW, JD.........in response to your question hours ago...........seems this valley attracts a lot of "outlier" types. Come home again ex-pats, LOTS of viet vets, RV'ers who finally settled down, miners, drifters, petty criminal-types with warrants from other juris without transport, many drunks, tons of other Master Gardeners, and many many animal shelters/rescues and pet lovers. A lot of people and pets come here to die.
Guys think about kindergarden, a nap after milk and cookies.
no, not pain, Paine!
sigh...
time to go.
I agree there's a lot of Anger. I think Obama should be doing more, but I don't think he can politically - the country isn't ready politically for policies which will be labelled socialist... things still seem 'okayish' now for everyone still with a job. Things are going to have to get worse before the country cries out for real action. It's still a political football now.
Bond Girl said it best: What does this even mean?
I take it to mean Barry O has been hitting Dean Baker's bong. Big time.
paying mortgages on behalf of individuals would require an act of congress.
The money and authorization comes from the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008
Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you use smoothed earnings, they're still above normal, but not outrageously so...
Short Courage,
I smooth earnings and adjust for inflation. I also make an adjustment for the bubble decade in my earnings smoothing. I also track index profit margins and levels against national profits.
Imo, earnings are well above normal. What's worse, debt levels are at record levels. Unless you believe in high inflation or a return of the credit bubble markets, stocks are indeed outrageously over-valued.
Currently, the S&P 500 is projected to have a 2.4% dividend yield for the next 12 months. Historically, short and long run returns have been abysmal from that dividend level.
FYI:
St. Louis Fed: Series: CP, Corporate Profits After Tax
Just thoughts.
" Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:40 pm
"Seriously, if they float this, O has lost my vote."
What is the alternative? What would McCain/Palin have done differently?"
I'm sure it would have been much more mavericky, and Sarah is mighty fine to look at, at least for these old eyes.
Please pinch me, I think I am dreaming.
Is it still politically incorrect to suggest that we could free up 10 million jobs by requiring employers to verify immigartion status?
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 3:55 pm
* reply
* Ignore user
I'm an Obama guy, but you'll see more stuff like this. Realization has hit that election 2010 is going to be a real bitch.
I was an Obama guy and feel like a jackass . I should have kept my money - don't think that a Clinton administration could have been any worse.I think the Democrats are going to get their clocks cleaned in 2010 and unless the Republicans nominate somebody like Palin Obama is in deep trouble in 2012. I think he is taking the left side of his party for granted while he panders to the Republicans and Wall Street. In the end he will end up pissing of the fiscal conservatives, those who object to the war, those who respect the constitution and think that torture is wrong, gays, etc.
It's ALWAYS been about bailing out the banks, the lenders, the pension funds, the 401ks... never about the homeowners.... calling it Obamanomics is kind of overlooking the disaster he inherited.
I've been out working the fields all day today.
What did I miss?
JS123,
Yes, you juan to get into trouble?
7,000 Frenchwomen marched on the Royal Palace @ Versailes, with cannons, guns, pikes, pitchforks, scythes and i'd guess anything else pointy and sharp, one day in October 1789...
back when those 'blogs' were being written the percentage of the total population that could read was small
Literacy in colonial New England was around 90% (well at least for whites). Those people were neither undereducated nor stupid compared to the populace we have today (and don't even get me started on the relative intellectual merits of the leadership then and now...).
The Republicans will look great for 2012 until they nominate a candidate and that candidate opens their mouth and out will spew policies to destroy the middle class and protect the uber-wealthy like nothing you have ever heard before. It's what they do. If you looked last time, McCain's tax cuts were all directed at the wealthy - nothing for the middle class except Reagan/Bush/Laffer trickle down mumbo jumbo.
"overlooking the disaster he inherited"
Please. Stop making excuses.
"Is it still politically incorrect to suggest that we could free up 10 million jobs by requiring employers to verify immigartion status?"
NO. And the Hb-1 visa program needs to be killed pronto.
'A new statistic we are watching closely is the number of properties actively scheduled for sale – maning that a Notice of Trustee Sale has been filed to set the auction date and time, but the foreclosure has not yet been sold or cancelled.'
Just this last week I noticed something odd on the Fidelityasap trustee sales. The number of cancelled sales in my county went from a steady 5 or 6 to 17. But if you searched through the rest of the list, the house reappeared as a sale again. So is this the new trick to make it look like there aren't anymore postponed?
HomeGnome (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 2:12 pm
I've been out working the fields all day today.
What did I miss?
Nothing. Same policies different administration.
Bond Girl (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 4:59 pm
* reply
* Ignore user
How is this even going to work? Is the federal government going to acquire the mortgage from the bank? Then accept lower payments to the point that it is affordable? What does this even mean?
Surprised that you had to ask the question. Bankers get their loans repaid at 100% (well actually Goldman who would have bought those loans at a discount) and taxpayers get the shaft, Obama gets contributions and Tim and Larry have nice post administration jobs in the financial services sector.
Nova,
no, not pain, Paine!
sigh...
time to go.
okay, I need help with this one, I am not following the chain of logic. I got the Paine reference...what are you referring too?
" Black Star Ranch (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:02 pm
........first the Administration adds 33-weeks to unemployment coverage. Now they will help you take care of your shelter.
Doesn't anyone see a danger in this? If the new FedGov Mommy owns your house, manufactures your car, and provides you with the paycheck you receive..........how can you possibly say NO to anything it wants to do? Welcome to your new world. Change you can believe in."
When do the breadlines start?
we could free up 10 million jobs by requiring employers to verify immigartion status?
Jobs aren't some static resource pie that just gets distributed. I would prefer to restrict immigration to the skilled, but if you're going to argue against the poor Mexicans you'll need a better economic model than your comment implies you're packing.
New boss same as the old boss, Dawg?
Like I've always said:
Elephants and Asses
Trampling the Masses
Does it matter who steals from you?
Red or Blue?
And Obama used to teach Constitutional Law...and I thought that meant something...a certain affinity for constitutional principles...Bwahahahaha, the joke's on me. I am the sucker who voted for this nightmare administration.
bbartlog,
I have read that the literacy was much lower than that. It was quite high for white property owners, almost 100%. I didn't think it was that high throughout the whole spectrum...
Someday, someway, Pig.
I shall have my revenge!
Hi, everybody.
Pay the borrower's payment?? That might have worked a year and half ago.
As small cramdowns 6-9 months ago.
But now---it's tooo laaaate.
Only big cramdowns will work now.
I'm hearing more and more that the lenders are doing stuff that makes no
sense--everybody is saying it.
I just did an all cash sale (for a friend; charged her hardly anything)
buyter was a south American.
Another all cash walked in yesterday.
And to repeat again. Someone had better start financing the REOs, or else.
Re AZ "recourse" law:
There goes the bottom end of the market being propped up by mini land barons, Tempe had been only slowly sinking, this could force some local slumlords around the university to cut bait on properties past their replacement cost.
To those who kvetch on the foolishness of green energy, are we already going BK on shipping$$$ to OPEC?
PV needs to get to 30% efficiency on an industrial scale to take off. with concentrated PV they're already past that, With multispectrum they're well past that point, they just need to ramp up manufacturing. Solar takes care of peak production, concengrated solar towers can help handle baseline demand at night along with nukes(if the plants are cheap and safe enough.)
As exxon has finally woken up to, algae diesel has a real shot at being scalable and competitive.
We don't need to replace %100 of energy, just enough to kill pricing power.
Just read up on preliminary Basel III, will basically price CDO squares out of existence and sort of force commercial banks out of propriatary trading by making them reserve too much capital.
A nice start.
What you're confusing is the seasonal winds of change in earnings with permanent (or long-term) headwinds against earnings, not just of specialty retailers but of virtually all U.S. companies.
We'll probably not again in our lifetimes see earnings conditions like we had before. Well, maybe if you're under 30, you might..
Universal healthcare is needed and probably will be a long-term positive for the U.S. economy. But it's not a positive for corporate earnings. The same with the federal deficit, cap-and-trade, and a long list.
When people realize that earnings aren't coming back, P/E multiples will get real.
It will happen in the next year. Or two. It's why I mostly switched over from double to single short ETFs.
Except for SRS, of course, for sentimental reasons.
yes yes only bums can't feed their kids
I am no socialist - but clearly the so called "capitalism" that existed in the US between 1980 and 2007 with huge debt run ups was not sustainable and will not be seen again any time soon. The economic system is in a slow motion collapse - and you should thank God that it is not a high speed collapse.
If you are some kind of laissez faire, free market fundamentalist then you are going to be shocked by more and more government intervention in the economy. But, get real, the ponzi, debt fuelled, free trade give away of the past 30 years has shown itself to be unworkable - you can't go back to that.
Visa claims teen spent $23,148,855,308,184,500.00 on prepaid credit card
Obama taught his students that the Founding Fathers disagreed so the Constitution does not mean any one thing.
Not one damn bit of difference between the Elephants and the Asses, Cent.
Not one damn bit.
you guys are giving Obama way too much credit, just like you did with GWB. What can one man do? He signs legislation into law, not make it. Listen to yourselves. Our legislators are representative of us at the local and regional level. As a body, they decide what will or will not happen, not the President.
With all due respect, barfly.
Congress did not write nor read the PATRIOT ACT; they merely voted it into law, so what are you talking about "they represent us"?
Wrong.
"They" are lapdogs to TPTB.
"surrender ownership"...HaHAAHAA haaaa...The president is a comedian
No thal is Al Franken the clown.
"This is the most disgusting (and stupidest) thing Obama has come up with yet."
The day's not over yet.
This is the stupidest
I though everything he has done is studid!
barfly (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:33 pm
reply Ignore user
you guys are giving Obama way too much credit, just like you did with GWB. What can one man do? He signs legislation into law, not make it. Listen to yourselves. Our legislators are representative of us at the local and regional level. As a body, they decide what will or will not happen, not the President.
I thought obama was dictator for life. Am I wrong?
so what are you talking about "they represent us"?
I guess you are assuming that there is a difference between the Elephants and the Asses, then?
The "system" has been corrupted; doesn't matter who holds office at this point.
Bought and Paid for lapdogs.
Nova - that made me laugh.
Absolutely there are major differences between the two parties. Why do we have gridlock?
gridlock over what, exactly?
Lobbyists have more influence than voters.
Does it matter who gets into office as long as you've bribed both sides?
It's about MONEY.
ACORN will be the landlord. The tenant will receive one month's free rent for each voter registration card that he or she completes. (Any friend of ACORN is a friend of mine.)
we have gridlock because we have two parties of relatively equal strength with opposing ideals.
Name a gridlock then, please.
What "opposing ideals"?
I guess it does matter who steals from you then, Red or Blue?
Name a gridlock then, please.
What "opposing ideals"?
regulation vs. de-regulation
regressive taxation vs. progressive taxation
universal healthcare vs. the status quo
bail-outs vs. no bail-outs
I'm sure there are some here who could list more.
I wonder if Obama or any other president today could find a course of action that would enjoy widespread public and Congressional support. Too many of us, rich and poor, are still in denial. Policies that addressed actual economic realities would be very unpopular. Polices that DON'T address economic realities are doomed to fail. And here we are.
regulation vs. de-regulation <----do you mean enforcement?
regressive taxation vs. progressive taxation <---taxation without representation (there are only 2 parties afterall and I know they don't represent every viewpoint)
universal healthcare vs. the status quo <---I say we should OUTLAW insurance.
bail-outs vs. no bail-outs <---Red and Blue both bailed out.
I'd love to continue this discussion; but the fine Mrs. Gnome just got home and it is time to relax.
Lemme buy you a virtual beer?
Perhaps we can continue at another time?
Good night, barfly.
I mean, why aren't we all just one big happy family?
"drill, baby, drill" vs alternative energy
public transportation vs private
c'mon people, help me out here.
sacred vs secular
Gah! How could I forget that one?
Thank you.
Rob Dawg
Public housing. There's change we can believe in. We're all Section 8 now.
I don't think it could be described any better than this.
We're moving from the Ownership society to the Government society. Talk about whiplash.
Government society vs No society?
"We're moving from the Ownership society to the Government society. Talk about whiplash. ......"
What concerns me is the backlash, when the pendulum swings the other way. The gov has title to a lot of serfs, but it's for a good cause, help the poor suffering masses etc.
2012, the backlash takes effect, time for the stick not the carrot. Now a goverment with a less fluffy outlook might make some serious hay with all the indentured servants it owns.
Bingo John Stark - when reality is sufficiently miserable we will get substantive action, not before.
tax cuts for the rich vs. tax cuts for the other 95% of the population.
M-F - major difference, yes.
Thank you.
also, pro-union vs anti-union
The point is, there's major differences between the two major parties, and to make blanket statements to the contrary is patently false.
Barfly,
You are correct and I thank you (and John Stark and M-F) for pointing out the error in my statement.
My point was that both the Reds and the Blues tax us and give our monies to their own special little groups which keep them in power on a seemingly revolving basis.
Therefore, we have no real "change" just a battle between two opposing forces when there is usually a third (or fourth or fifth alternative)
Agree or no?
I see the "Reds" as corporate power, and the "Blues" as people power. Certainly there is room for more viewpoints and opinions, but they will have to overcome one of these two major groups to get anywhere. Which group is the question.
Thus, we see the "libertarians" aligning themselves with the "Reds", and the "Greens" aligning themselves with the "Blues".
"Officials are also considering whether the government should make mortgage payments on behalf of borrowers who cannot keep up with their home loans"
FROM WHOSE POCKETS ??
THESE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE SWINES, ARE THEY TRYING TO PLAY ROBINHOOD?