But these raw figures on job losses, bad as they are, actually understate the weakness in world labor markets. If you include partially employed workers and discouraged workers who left the U.S. labor force, for example, the unemployment rate is already 16.5%; even temporary employment is sharply down.
This is where the real battle will be fought... No one wants to report it tho..... (Except CR and Dr Doom and other rogues....)
OT question but if figure there are enough glod buffs here that someone might know. Can anyone explain the major differences in prices for 1 oz as listed here... Whats so special about the type of coin? Current Gold Prices - Gold Price Quotes - Price of Gold
Stimulus is a joke of a concept; it doesn't end up with real economic growth in the long term. Even the New Deal failed to increase private investment. good articles: Interesting Finance & Economic articles
Gov'ts can charge whatever premium they want for each coin. And then there's supply and demand. Some people like a pure gold bullion coin better -- supposedly the Buffalo is pretty popular -- than another that still holds an ounce of gold but also additional metals as well for strength, like the eagle.
"If you include partially employed workers and discouraged workers who left the U.S. labor force, for example, the unemployment rate is already 16.5%; even temporary employment is sharply down."
motgagepayer (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 10:11 am
reply ignore user
Unemployment situation is only gonna get worse. 13% maybe. Obama & Geithner are clueless.
Did you ever work at a company that was going down the tubes where you had the obligitary monthly all hands meeting? Management would give the obligitary pep talk but the knew it was baloney, all the employees knew it was baloney, management knew that the employees knew it was baloney and the employees knew that management knew what they were saying was baloney.
But at the end of the day you still went to the same meeting and heard the same words until the company shut down.
The full transcript was:
"Unemployment will continue to rise through out my presidency but as long as the bankers are ok that's all I'm worried about, after all they help pay my campaign cost, so you gotta look after your buddies... say is that microphone on ?"
At least we didn't hear a lot of BS about the new Green Jobs, aka taxpayer subsidized make-work.
Then there's the thing he didn't say....."we're FUBAR in the 2010 Congressional elections....health care, Soto and two more SCOTUSes, green energy....all better happen this year...."
It's even more fun to be in the situation when the execs have p*ssed away that last of the company funds making sure they have a nice safety net to move onto.
Ghostface,
I don't think he's clueless. The powers that be have decided that the old system is to be saved. The only role Obama can play in that process is one of cheerleader: the old system needs continued, unsustainable confidence and profligacy in the face of reason. He's merely trying to restart the dumb-engine.
So they're all clueless, I guess, but consider what it would have taken to dismantle the system. I'm not sure our politics is built for that kind of sea-change.
On the positive side, he said the U.S. has "seen some stabilization in the financial markets, and that's good because my best contributors are getting rich again
you still went to the same meeting and heard the same words until the company shut down.
Ahh, yes, i remember those days. One day I came into the meeting with a striped Cat-In-The-Hat top hat and glasses with spring-loaded pop-out eyes. The entire meeting was deadly serious and people pretended not to notice me.
Although no one has a crystal ball, it does appear the unemployment rate will rise well into 2010 - and then stay elevated for some time as the U.S. suffers with another jobless recovery.
How will we cover the massive deficits we're running with a "jobless recovery"?
Rudimentary reasoning skills (2nd grade, perhaps 3rd grade at most) would suggest another credit debacle is coming.
I would say health care and green energy would bankrupt the country but they're doing so well without spending on either of those two I can't really comment.
The buffalo has taken on some numismatic premium due to lower mintage and popularity. Most of the other differences reflect market preferences. Eagles tend to be preferred in the U.S., Maples in Canada, etc. I prefer Krugs.
I love how Obama pushes green energy. Its just like Bush pushing ethanol. The economics just aren't there ... cost wise, ethanol can't replace petroleum, and neither can solar and wind on a large scale.
Conservation, on the other hand, is something that can be done. But it requires sacrafice. Can't ask voters to sacrifice. Won't ask them to reduce their spending.
"Retail sales rose 0.6 percent, slightly edging out economists’ expectations, as car dealerships enjoyed their best month since January and oil prices drove up receipts at gas stations, the Commerce Department reported."
NYT
it was my impression that the car sales as reported by the auto companies were lower in June than they were in May- so how do the Feds come up with the best month since January?
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs. (For more insight, read Matt Taibbi’s article, “The Great American Bubble Machine” in Rolling Stone, page 52, July 9-23, 2009.) Want to know who’s driving the Wall Street to Washington train? Follow the money.
Tell a politician about a problem and he or she will derive a way government can fix it. Tell a Wall Streeter about a problem and he or she will derive a way to profit from it.
That some intelligent people even mouth these words makes you want to believe that 2012 really is the end. (See movie trailer).
When we get to 10% employed, 90% unemployed down the road a ways, any hopeful increase of economic activity will be a recovery, as we ratchet down toward starvation and anarchy step by step. If GS is making money, times must be great, right?
Eagles tend to be preferred in the U.S., Maples in Canada, etc. I prefer Krugs.
I prefer Silver Maples over Silver Eagles because they have been roughly the same price for me, but the face value of the Silver Maple is 4x the Eagle taking into account the strengthening CDN.
As for gold that I'm not collecting, I shop for deals if they are to be had. For collecting, I'm agree with C. Coinz.
Reich is right - we can't "recover" because there is no plausible set of circumstances that would allow the 2005 FIRE economy to come back on a broad scale. There is not enough revenue to employ people in these industries all across the country. There is only enough revenue for Goldman Sachs. Meanwhile unemployment will continue to drive the remaining sectors of the economy down.
People can make fun of government sponsored programs like trains and green energy, but there really isn't any alternative. Nobody can argue that private markets have been allocating capital efficently or effectively for the last ten years. The system for investing private capital is so far out of whack that we are in the rare situation where government investment would be more efficient and is the better choice.
Unfortunately, until Obama makes some significant program changes, we can't make any private or public investments. Both channels just go straight into the pockets of Goldman Sachs bankers.
As bad as being un/under-employed is; my guess (the data is there, but not at my fingertips) is that its impact on both the individual and the financial system is much greater than in the past due to the leverage brought on by debt.
Food and shelter might be available from friends or family, but debt is the Damocle's sword that goes away only with real loss on the part of either the debtor or the lender.
If the "new new" since 2000 is for jobless recoveries after each recession, how many will it take to get to 0% employment? This new economy is a bitch!
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs.
more finger pointing!
America's economic woes were brought on by Americans. When MJ funeral gets more attention and the viewership for "inside the Jackson family" is higher than any program on health care or global warming or any other major issue- Americans are the problem and deserve exactly what they are getting. Lets face it collectively as Americans we have accepted the bullshit that is put out and believed that we could all get rich, lead a comfortable retirement without saving or working just let the stock and housing bubble take care of the problem
On the positive side, [Obama] said the U.S. has "seen some stabilization in the financial markets, and that's good because that means companies can borrow and banks are starting to lend again."
This is so wrong on so many levels. At half current trends we'll be 11%+ middle of 2010 so the "tics up" prediction is more of an admission of "tango uniform." But back the quote I except here. This is the essence of why we are nowhere near stabilization.
"Borrowing and lending are not the economy."
There is excess debt and leverage in the economy. No amount of renewed lending or leverage can fix that. Obama is faced with the prospect of either throwing the financial sector or the entire economy under the bus and he isn't [yet] up to the task of making the choice. "The Cold Equations" may end up making the decision for him.
I'm with you on this one. The debt financed economy exists because we've done little to increase our per capita incomes. Only way to do that is through technology. The question is....why has the pace of technological innovation slowed?
I just want to re-emphasize how critically important it was for the fed and treasury to preserve our "free" markets with $14 trillion in bailouts and guarantees.
Goldman's monster Q2 earnings and record planned year end bonuses really underscore the importance of "free" markets.
BTW, I like Meredith's estimate of 13% unemployment. A couple of years back I estimated 12%-17% because those are the numbers that economists have come up with for the Depression of 1893 based on production data from the time.
If we have 13% unemployment I don't think people will refer to the episode as simply a "recession".
That some intelligent people even mouth these words makes you want to believe that 2012 really is the end
I need to look up and what the next end-of-the-world date after 2012 is so that I can start exploiting peoples irrational fears for that one. Ideally something around 2023 would be good. Articles, books, TV appearances, I've always wanted to be the profit of the new apocalypse ( I used profit deliberately
Agreed with the ghostly one, the admin/Fed has successfully funded the coffers of GS. Well, yay.
How will we cover the massive deficits we're running with a "jobless recovery"?
Keynsian multiplier thingies aided by magic Krugman dust.
The basic problem is that, once you strip away all the fluff, there's too many people and not enough things to do. So we need to find more things to do, or we need less people. I'd prefer the former solution.
How do you pay off the debts with a jobless recovery. It's called trash your currency!!!
Yep. And that will lead to another credit crisis.
It may look a lot different than 2008, but the consequences will be the same -- less access to real borrowing and the economic side effects of that in a credit dependent economy.
"Too many people and not enough things to do". You do realize this is basically one of Marx's critiques of capitalism....through productivity increases the value of labor continues to decrease....
Wiping out a second lien == debt foregiveness == principal reduction.
Clearly where we are heading. If you are underwater on your mortgage today and in trouble making payments, hold out, you will eventually get a principal reduction (ETA 6 months).
OT question but if figure there are enough glod buffs here that someone might know. Can anyone explain the major differences in prices for 1 oz as listed here... Whats so special about the type of coin?
Nades,
Also, certain coins have curreny value, meaning in the event of illegalization of gold, they wouldn't be subject to confiscation.
I know Kruggerands have some base metals mixed in, so it's not 100% pure gold. At the end of the day though, an ounce is an ounce, and if gold goes to $2000-3000, no one will really care in what form that ounce comes.
As for silver, I would probably stay away from paying the premiums on American Eagles and go for the rounds instead.
I hate outsourcing. I hate Indian techs and customer suport. There is no company here. I buy from a local "sales" office but that is where it ends.
Call To Probe Virginia Outsourcing Deal
Posted by Paul McDougall on July 8, 2009 12:00 PM
Virginia's largest newspaper is calling for a public inquiry into a troubled outsourcing contract that has resulted in the firing of the state's CIO.
State CIO Lemuel Stewart last month criticized Northrop Grumman's performance on Virginia's ten-year, $2.3 billion outsourcing deal with the contractor. He was swiftly canned by the board that oversees Virginia's IT operations.
Gee, what a surprise. The board that canned him has former Northrop and Oracle employees on it.
Complaints about Northrop's performance include allegations that the contractor has missed several, key implementation milestones. Northrop Grumman was slated to fully takeover management of Virginia's IT operations on July 1st, but that deadline has come and gone.
"Too many people and not enough things to do". You do realize this is basically one of Marx's critiques of capitalism....through productivity increases the value of labor continues to decrease....
The problem I have with Marx is that if there's "not enough things for people to do" in a capitalist system that means they essentially cannot be paid for doing these things (because the activities are not profitable).
Most people I know would rather stay home and do nothing than go to work and not get paid.
More things for people to do.
health care reform represents how much construction and remodeling of clinics to provide public clinics and get people out of the expensive emergency room?
Govermentium will grow, as the charade of wall street fails. Now we just need more new products to make a happy healthy society!
Maybe we should legalize some of the DSHEA foolishness, everybody needs anabolic steriods in their cornflakes!
Just decently inspecting imports and moving towards a model of regulation that makes sense would push a lot of jobs.
We should think about making some sort of urban renewal driven by cheap housing again.
Anything to partially fill the output gap. That gap is going to be brutal, judging by the number of folks attempting to make a living off of craigslist.
JimPortland
I keep trying to get my head around what a "jobless recovery" actually looks like. Doesn't money have to be distributed and spent for a recovery? If it's not going to happen through traditional means (jobs, credit), I guess a jobless recovery means direct handouts/subsidies.
Either that, or the distribution of wealth will be even more inequitable than it already is, with those at the top driving a "recovery", and more and more unemployed/underemployed barely able to survive.
No greater fool then the public. Obama doesn't have a crystal ball. Duh, He is using a crisis and amplifying it for his greed an political gain. There can be no recovery with our real simultaneous and real long term jobs. None on the horizon as he continues to absorb new tax streams through banks and major business. Growing UE only makes many more dependent on the crumbs he is serving up.
Bob Dobbs (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:05 pm replyIgnore userGov't out of marriage business? About time.
Gov't should recognize "civil unions" with certain rights and responsibilities for all couples -- the same that marrieds have now. Churches can "marry you in the eyes of God;" but that's outside the civil equation.
It's stupid that a certain type of contract honored by society -- a particular package of rights and responsibilities -- can only be exercised between a man and a woman. From a legal standpoint, i suspect that many lawyers would agree.
BD,
I know we are different sides on the political prism on most not all and here is a perfect example.
I am a christain, religious and spritual. I am a federal minimist and fiscal conservative. But i have always maintained that marriage is religous and that has been the religious arguement i think just not articulated correctly by the masses. And irresponsiblby articulated b7y those who assume to speak for them.
But i have always belived that all states recognize the marriage ceremoney as a civil union and not vice versa. And that all should be aforded civil unions under the state and all the pluses and minuses that come with them.
maybe the states should get out of the business of recognizing marriages (slight separation of C&S) and only recognize civil unions the those that favor opposite sex marriage only could have that but would have to get a civil union to be recognized.
I know others have echoed this thought before but I am waiting for the day we all get our hamster wheels so we can do our part to generate power. Be like a cross between the Matrix and Soylent Green...you know that bike Heston rode to generator power for the television...There's an instant growth model...puts everyone to work, solves the health care crisis with exercise, and global warming is a thing of the past....
Urban renewal....good idea but land sellers are too smart and want top dollar. They've figured that angle out too. You'll have to have the government expropriate the land you want.
It's just amazing to me sometimes how entrenched certain frameworks are.
The forty-hour workweek is a direct result of the Great Depression.
The preceding 48-hour workweek was a direct result of the Industrial Revolution.
Now, I'll admit it may not happen in the United States but only because the productivity gains are in China and India.
And they WILL do it or the U.S. will have to put up tariffs.
1 + 1 = 2, always.
You can't continue to produce goods that people can't afford to purchase.
In the longer term, it really doesn't matter what the fed or government does from here. The fed & treasury's actions to date will only make matters worse as they heighten awareness of the inequities and corruption in the system. More and more will realize that the system is set up to serve the few at the expense of the many. Beyond that, debt levels are too high and the outlook for future income is bleak.
I remain strongly in favor of letting the free markets dish out our well deserved debt purge. Fast and furious.
Consider this. If we did let the free markets decimate the financial community, scores of laid off and newly poor wall streeters would be begging for health care reform.
Speaking of Detroit, Seems Bob Luzt is eying a import that is not a Obama Can car. Why are they still trying to workaround the UAW? Pretty obvious isn't it?
You can't continue to produce goods that people can't afford to purchase.
The prevailing economic theory seems to be for the producer to simply loan you money to purchase the goods you can't afford. Then keep repeating this indefinitely.
Although it doesn't seem to be working all that well for the global economy right now.....
WiW, I can do an easy button on that too- tax rates on vacant urban renewal property are now higher than property in use.
Viola! Instant urban renewal. The dream of squatting vacant property for some dream return died last year. Now, the entire purpose of a lot is to put something on it that will generate a return to the community.
Specusquatting died last year. Land we have coming out our ears everywhere but SF, Portland, Manhattan, and a few really constrained places.
Yesterday's article on Billyburg showed it in spades.
Time for economic reality to set in. The great real estate boom is dead. Dead and gone. Taxes are going up, so we might as well target them selectively to remake the urban environment.
Want a tax break? Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America.
Okay, this takes the cake.....zombie robots...my god we are in such a rush to build skynet.
Upcoming Military Robot Could Feed on Dead Bodies
I'm stating up front I am and always have been on the side of the robots. When you suddenly end up on tier 2 of the foodchain compromise may be a good idea.
For the millionth time. There is no such thing as a jobless recovery in a debt money system. The last "recovery" was nothing of the sort. It only seemed like a recovery while people were impoverishing themselves with unpayable debts.
It is my belief that to maintain the dollar's reserve currency status, Bernanke will only purify a small amount of the last recovery's bogus debt. He will purify just enough to keep the system from imploding.
The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Can I get help fill in the latest numbers (links to figures):
How many people are on the government's payroll system?
bank
auto
insurance
investment broker
semi-financial
welfare
federal
state
local
social security
prison system
contractor working solely with state/federal
"I am a christain, religious and spritual. I am a federal minimist and fiscal conservative. But i have always maintained that marriage is religous and that has been the religious arguement i think just not articulated correctly by the masses. And irresponsiblby articulated b7y those who assume to speak for them."
I'm more of a Christian agnostic; I have been to many different churches of different denominations, and belong to one now. And though there's something to like about most of them, my experiences helped me reach the conclusion that theology and civil law are an unnatural mix.
When I decided to buy a house with my then-girlfriend, with the title in my name, it was my CPA and lawyer came down on me like a ton of bricks -- danger, danger, danger. The lawyer warned against trying to recreate marital rights and privileges with a series of agreements; too hard to enforce, too easy to be ignored or challenged. So, separate the civil and the spiritual. Render to Caesar...
The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Yes.
A lot of 2001-2007 was not real work or it was front-loaded work into the future.
The fraud is tacitly supported because it moves money into the general economy to reflate.
@Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 10:57 am
For the millionth time. There is no such thing as a jobless recovery in a debt money system......The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Crime rates are going to be skyrocketing over the next few years. The blue collar crimes in particular. People robbing and stealing initially for food and shelter, then as employment continues to be high over time it will become more organized and wide spread.
I'd pay close attention to what AllenM is suggesting - whether you agree or disagree in principle I think it is close as it gets to WORD...
BTW taxing land a la some Neo-Georgian movement and subsequently subsidizing 'development' on same would do a lot to increase employment... of course it might also exacerbate the oversupply of Mini-McCondos and such. Won't be a 'problem' though as long as Goldman Sachs finds a way to profit from it.
Sorry if this has already been discussed but with CA giving out IOU's are people on CA state unemployment getting IOU's? BTW, I am on wage reduction (10%) since June, hence the reason for my question.......
My nightmare is that Palin forces a split in the "deer caught in the headlights" remains of the Republican party, and runs as a new 3rd party conservative...I want a new party, but if Palin runs one, it will be the death to any serious consideration of a new party for some time. Just my two cents.
Punitive taxation on "underutilized" real property is just a State grab of the land asset. It is no different in principle or effect than eminent domain for economic reasons.
"Bingo because Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans"
Bingo again. As much as I am a free marketer, I would like to see some kind of tax on "wealth", rather than income, in order to bring better equality. Maybe even more progressive inheritance taxes would do the trick.
I am all for someone making money through hard work or inventiveness (e.g. the Google guys), but spend the damn money or give it away while you are still alive.
All this wealth hoarding is very, very bad for society.
I know Kruggerands have some base metals mixed in, so it's not 100% pure gold.
Maples and buffalos are 24k (pure gold). This also makes them soft and easily damaged.
Krugs are a mix of gold and copper. I like the ruddy red glow of a Krug but that is pure personal taste.
American Eagles are a mix of gold, silver, and copper.
All 1 oz coins, regardless of mix contain a full 1 oz of gold.
This sometimes confuses people new to bullion, thinking that a Krug or Eagle doesn't contain a full 1 oz of gold.
Punitive taxation on "underutilized" real property is just a State grab of the land asset.
Yup... but won't face the same fierce political backlash ED does ESPECIALLY if coupled with tax friendly 'incentives' to develop. Then it isn't confiscation as much as tax driven central planning. We been in that mode since what... 1969?
albrt (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:28 pm
Reich is right - we can't "recover" because there is no plausible set of circumstances that would allow the 2005 FIRE economy to come back on a broad scale.
All they have to do is add government stimulus to create GRIEF.
That acronym cheats a little but FIRE is an anagram of REFI and FREI.
Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans
km4,
I see it a little differently. Debt is capitalism's dirty little secret as long as the free market can create the non-eCONomic debt and lay it off on the fed or the government. Absent that corrupt CONnection, capitalism would create productive debt and a better distribution of wealth.
Bad money forces out good money. Bad debt forces out good debt.
Will Goldman's record earnings based on government bailouts increase or decrease the likelihood of bubbles and shams in the future?
"it does appear the unemployment rate will rise well into 2010 - and then stay elevated for some time as the U.S. suffers with another jobless recovery."
So how many repeated jobless recoveries will we have before there are no jobs left at all?
California needs to issue equity, not debt which it can't pay back anyway.
Seriously, sell off shares of what assets it actually owns.
This would work for the US and individuals as well. And then after the assets are gone, what do we sell?
I read that gold coins are alloyed for durability.
Most.
I believe the American eagle is mixed with copper and is one of the more durable coins.
There's a couple of pure gold coins, I don't rememer which ones, though.
wealth taxes at the federal level are direct taxes, and must be apportioned to the states. I don't think flyover senators would be amenable to such a proposal.
" broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:37 pm
No, we need to redistribute the existing work to match the existing workforce."
You're joking, right? Skill and performance shouldn't factor in? That's the union line-
Right. Alloys are more durable, more suitable for circulation. All U.S. gold and silver coins meant for circulation were alloyed.
Pre-1965 silver coins were 90% silver, 10% copper. This compares with UK sterling at 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper IIRC.
100% gold is very soft & malleable... Spanish pieces of eight as example... easy to cut into eighths and pirates could bite them to 'assay'... do that with most 'alloys' and you break your teeth.
I wonder whether Ken could implement an automatic filter that would instaban any user that posted a link to Sorry. Page not found. . That would be nice. Would have to be extensible to other kinds of misbehavior to be worthwhile of course...
You're joking, right? Skill and performance shouldn't factor in? That's the union line-
No, I'm quite serious.
If you want a stable society.
I think that's what a society has to decide - wealth vs. stability.
I think to some extent they're mutually exclusive.
If so, then you have sort of a game theory type problem where if one nation chooses "stability" and less wealth formation, then that increases the payoff for some other nation to choose "instability" and potentially greater wealth formation.
That doesn't mean the instability won't lead to disaster, but a rational analysis of the risk/reward ratio may start to turn positive.
Well, in our system, said tax is levied against wages and production, both of which are generally only spendable after delivery of output and often after inflation has occurred. Asset owners and those that use leverage to control assets or future output end up gathering much of the inflation on output they don't produce.
And when they over-estimate said future output or inflation, the fed makes them whole.
The forty-hour work week was already underway in private industry a few years before the Great Depression.
By 1935, there was enough public support to pass our currrent labor laws.
I think to some extent they're mutually exclusive.
Sigh.
AC, what's your educational background?
You can't consume more than you produce.
What you produce isn't necessarily consumed but if you want efficiency, it is.
There is no dichotomy between wealth and stability.
Henry Ford laid all this almost a hundred years ago.
When Ford started the 40-hour work week and a minimum wage he was criticized by other industrialists and by Wall Street. He proved, however, that paying people more would enable Ford workers to afford the cars they were producing and be good for the economy.
You, like almost all the investors here, are still viewing this as a "how can I make a big pile of money for myself, fuck evreryone else" mentality. It really is annoying sometimes. THE MONEY DOES NOT MATTER.
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:20 pm
Then there's the thing he didn't say....."we're FUBAR in the 2010 Congressional elections....health care, Soto and two more SCOTUSes, green energy....all better happen this year...."
Irate Obama did scold that health care better happen this year:
A defiant President Barack Obama says health care overhaul will be done this year.
During a Rose Garden event Monday to introduce his pick for surgeon general, Obama brushed off doubts and congressional delays. He said: "Don't bet against us. We are going to make this happen."
The president warned that inaction will create a bigger crisis.
"Want a tax break? Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America."
You can do that now; private subsidized housing corps. are good at putting together a land donor/land owner and a deal for some kind of subsidized housing; submit it to the feds, and if you get the OK you can sell tax credits to investors to fund the development. The deal can be made to pay out in a variety of ways for the different parties.
Churches with excess property are involved in this bigtime; the deal is usually structured so that they 1) get cash up front, 2) get the building and property back in 50 years or so, and 3) don't have to manage it themselves. The developer pays itself for construction costs and management fees, and the investor gets tax credits. Most churches go for the subsidized senior housing instead of subsidized low-income housing for families because, frankly, Christian goodness only goes so far these days and they think that seniors will be less trouble.
The trouble is hitting the sweet spot -- tenants can't make more than X amount, but still have to be able to afford the rent necessary to do the deal. And that's not everybody. In fact, that's not a lot of people.
But I agree -- tax incentives for the kind of economic activity/investments that society decides (we hope) are constructive.
The Billyburg Bust
A working-class neighborhood became a bohemian theme park, which in turn became a fantasyland for luxury-condo developers. Now, littered with half-built shells of a vanished boom, Williamsburg is looking like something else entirely:
You can't consume more than you produce.
What you produce isn't necessarily consumed but if you want efficiency, it is.
There is no dichotomy between wealth and stability.
Education - I had about 5 majors. IIRC I got a degree in computer engineering or math or something like that. I was drunk at the time so my memory is a bit hazy.
I make that comment about wealth/stability from reading about biology and the history of life - all "progress" looks like war to me.
When Ford started the 40-hour work week and a minimum wage he was criticized by other industrialists and by Wall Street. He proved, however, that paying people more would enable Ford workers to afford the cars they were producing and be good for the economy.
Ford never proved this. Ford cut wages in the Great Depression.
Wealth comes from productivity, not nominal wages.
You, like almost all the investors here, are still viewing this as a "how can I make a big pile of money for myself, fuck evreryone else" mentality. It really is annoying sometimes. THE MONEY DOES NOT MATTER.
Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America.
And once they have all us Boomers trapped inside these buildings? No thanks, I've learned a thing or two about Vlad Tepes social planning.
@ Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 11:14 am
Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans
km4,
I see it a little differently. Debt is capitalism's dirty little secret as long as the free market can create the non-eCONomic debt and lay it off on the fed or the government.
right and assuming we can get China, Japan, others to continue to buy our debt or else game over
House Health Plan Seeks 5.4 Percent Millionaire Tax (Update1)
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By Ryan J. Donmoyer and Kristin Jensen
July 14 (Bloomberg) -- House Democrats plan to introduce health-care legislation today that would impose a 5.4 percent surtax on couples earning more than $1 million.
The measure would also place a 1.5 percent tax on couples with incomes between $500,000 and $1 million and a 1 percent surtax on incomes over $350,000. The provision calls for higher taxes if the overhaul doesn’t produce at least $150 billion in cost savings over a decade.
@girlbear Sorry if this has already been discussed but with CA giving out IOU's are people on CA state unemployment getting IOU's? BTW, I am on wage reduction (10%) since June, hence the reason for my question.......
UI in Cali is still issued in cashable checks, not IOUs. It's funded indirectly by the fed - so not part of the "general fund". Thank goodness. (Family member is collecting.)
Something that stood out to me in the last unemployment report was the median duration of unemployment. It jumped by 3 weeks in just one months time to 17.9 weeks! It's also easily the worst measure for that series during modern recessions. It seems like we're really having a hard time getting some of these folks back on the payroll.
Nemoro Uno!
But these raw figures on job losses, bad as they are, actually understate the weakness in world labor markets. If you include partially employed workers and discouraged workers who left the U.S. labor force, for example, the unemployment rate is already 16.5%; even temporary employment is sharply down.
This is where the real battle will be fought... No one wants to report it tho..... (Except CR and Dr Doom and other rogues....)
And what if continuing 10% UE is the 'new normal'?
"seen some stabilization in the financial markets, and that's good because that means companies can borrow and banks are starting to lend again."
Every day I become more convinced he doesn't know what he is talking about, and is just a puppet for the people really in power.
This is no surprise - Meredith told us this months ago.
OT question but if figure there are enough glod buffs here that someone might know. Can anyone explain the major differences in prices for 1 oz as listed here... Whats so special about the type of coin? Current Gold Prices - Gold Price Quotes - Price of Gold
TIA
Every day I become more convinced he doesn't know what he is talking about, and is just a puppet for the people really in power.
Does he outline how people and companies will pay for said debt?
Obama Says Jobless Rate Likely to Tick Up for Several Months
Obama Says Jobless Rate Likely to Tick Up for Several Months - WSJ.com
Me thinks " The One " has been reading Untitled Document
Stimulus is a joke of a concept; it doesn't end up with real economic growth in the long term. Even the New Deal failed to increase private investment. good articles: Interesting Finance & Economic articles
Whats so special about the type of coin?
Off the top of my head, at least three parts:
"Does he outline how people and companies will pay for said debt? "
Or qualify?
Unemployment situation is only gonna get worse. 13% maybe. Obama & Geithner are clueless.
Sorry CR. Should have let you deal with it.
"Unemployment situation is only gonna get worse. 13% maybe. Obama & Geithner are clueless. "
Obama - yes, clueless.
Geithner - no. Goldman reported record earnings today, didn't they? Mission Accomplished.
Geithner and Summers know exactly what they are doing.
"Whats so special about the type of coin? "
Gov'ts can charge whatever premium they want for each coin. And then there's supply and demand. Some people like a pure gold bullion coin better -- supposedly the Buffalo is pretty popular -- than another that still holds an ounce of gold but also additional metals as well for strength, like the eagle.
"If you include partially employed workers and discouraged workers who left the U.S. labor force, for example, the unemployment rate is already 16.5%; even temporary employment is sharply down."
What is UE-6 at now?
My box store purchased crystal ball is only good for predicting events 2 weeks out, max.
"Unemployment situation is only gonna get worse. 13% maybe."
13 percent -- officially. Counted as Roubini is counting in, closer to 20 percent.
I agree my sock draw full of cocaine and doll heads tells me otherwise.
motgagepayer (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 10:11 am
reply ignore user
Unemployment situation is only gonna get worse. 13% maybe. Obama & Geithner are clueless.
Did you ever work at a company that was going down the tubes where you had the obligitary monthly all hands meeting? Management would give the obligitary pep talk but the knew it was baloney, all the employees knew it was baloney, management knew that the employees knew it was baloney and the employees knew that management knew what they were saying was baloney.
But at the end of the day you still went to the same meeting and heard the same words until the company shut down.
Bob & yagij - thanks. It looks like the Bullion is only available in 10 oz blocks so that explains its lack of premium.
The full transcript was:
"Unemployment will continue to rise through out my presidency but as long as the bankers are ok that's all I'm worried about, after all they help pay my campaign cost, so you gotta look after your buddies... say is that microphone on ?"
At least we didn't hear a lot of BS about the new Green Jobs, aka taxpayer subsidized make-work.
Then there's the thing he didn't say....."we're FUBAR in the 2010 Congressional elections....health care, Soto and two more SCOTUSes, green energy....all better happen this year...."
It's even more fun to be in the situation when the execs have p*ssed away that last of the company funds making sure they have a nice safety net to move onto.
Ghostface,
I don't think he's clueless. The powers that be have decided that the old system is to be saved. The only role Obama can play in that process is one of cheerleader: the old system needs continued, unsustainable confidence and profligacy in the face of reason. He's merely trying to restart the dumb-engine.
So they're all clueless, I guess, but consider what it would have taken to dismantle the system. I'm not sure our politics is built for that kind of sea-change.
Poic-
Yes I worked in housing in 2006 and 2007.
On the positive side, he said the U.S. has "seen some stabilization in the financial markets, and that's good because my best contributors are getting rich again
you still went to the same meeting and heard the same words until the company shut down.
Ahh, yes, i remember those days. One day I came into the meeting with a striped Cat-In-The-Hat top hat and glasses with spring-loaded pop-out eyes. The entire meeting was deadly serious and people pretended not to notice me.
Although no one has a crystal ball, it does appear the unemployment rate will rise well into 2010 - and then stay elevated for some time as the U.S. suffers with another jobless recovery.
How will we cover the massive deficits we're running with a "jobless recovery"?
Rudimentary reasoning skills (2nd grade, perhaps 3rd grade at most) would suggest another credit debacle is coming.
I would say health care and green energy would bankrupt the country but they're doing so well without spending on either of those two I can't really comment.
Whats so special about the type of coin?
The buffalo has taken on some numismatic premium due to lower mintage and popularity. Most of the other differences reflect market preferences. Eagles tend to be preferred in the U.S., Maples in Canada, etc. I prefer Krugs.
splat - i'd rather go down swinging at something that might actually make a difference....
Green shoots- more leisure time for more people!
I love how Obama pushes green energy. Its just like Bush pushing ethanol. The economics just aren't there ... cost wise, ethanol can't replace petroleum, and neither can solar and wind on a large scale.
Conservation, on the other hand, is something that can be done. But it requires sacrafice. Can't ask voters to sacrifice. Won't ask them to reduce their spending.
"Retail sales rose 0.6 percent, slightly edging out economists’ expectations, as car dealerships enjoyed their best month since January and oil prices drove up receipts at gas stations, the Commerce Department reported."
NYT
it was my impression that the car sales as reported by the auto companies were lower in June than they were in May- so how do the Feds come up with the best month since January?
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs. (For more insight, read Matt Taibbi’s article, “The Great American Bubble Machine” in Rolling Stone, page 52, July 9-23, 2009.) Want to know who’s driving the Wall Street to Washington train? Follow the money.
Tell a politician about a problem and he or she will derive a way government can fix it. Tell a Wall Streeter about a problem and he or she will derive a way to profit from it.
good articles... Interesting Finance & Economic articles
"Jobless recovery".
That some intelligent people even mouth these words makes you want to believe that 2012 really is the end. (See movie trailer).
When we get to 10% employed, 90% unemployed down the road a ways, any hopeful increase of economic activity will be a recovery, as we ratchet down toward starvation and anarchy step by step. If GS is making money, times must be great, right?
"The powers that be have decided that the old system is to be saved. "
We are not going back to the old system by any means. TPTB have decided to take us straight down the road to Corporatism, which suits them just fine.
EDIT: I should say "further down the road", since we have been going down the road for some time. Full speed ahead.
ac-
How do you pay off the debts with a jobless recovery. It's called trash your currency!!!
Now where was I....oh right trying to figure out how to put my savings in yuan.
Eagles tend to be preferred in the U.S., Maples in Canada, etc. I prefer Krugs.
I prefer Silver Maples over Silver Eagles because they have been roughly the same price for me, but the face value of the Silver Maple is 4x the Eagle taking into account the strengthening CDN.
As for gold that I'm not collecting, I shop for deals if they are to be had. For collecting, I'm agree with C. Coinz.
Reich is right - we can't "recover" because there is no plausible set of circumstances that would allow the 2005 FIRE economy to come back on a broad scale. There is not enough revenue to employ people in these industries all across the country. There is only enough revenue for Goldman Sachs. Meanwhile unemployment will continue to drive the remaining sectors of the economy down.
People can make fun of government sponsored programs like trains and green energy, but there really isn't any alternative. Nobody can argue that private markets have been allocating capital efficently or effectively for the last ten years. The system for investing private capital is so far out of whack that we are in the rare situation where government investment would be more efficient and is the better choice.
Unfortunately, until Obama makes some significant program changes, we can't make any private or public investments. Both channels just go straight into the pockets of Goldman Sachs bankers.
As bad as being un/under-employed is; my guess (the data is there, but not at my fingertips) is that its impact on both the individual and the financial system is much greater than in the past due to the leverage brought on by debt.
Food and shelter might be available from friends or family, but debt is the Damocle's sword that goes away only with real loss on the part of either the debtor or the lender.
Or the lender's surrogate.
Oops! That's me!
If the "new new" since 2000 is for jobless recoveries after each recession, how many will it take to get to 0% employment? This new economy is a bitch!
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs.
more finger pointing!
America's economic woes were brought on by Americans. When MJ funeral gets more attention and the viewership for "inside the Jackson family" is higher than any program on health care or global warming or any other major issue- Americans are the problem and deserve exactly what they are getting. Lets face it collectively as Americans we have accepted the bullshit that is put out and believed that we could all get rich, lead a comfortable retirement without saving or working just let the stock and housing bubble take care of the problem
Getting a Second Opinion on Second Liens
Getting a Second Opinion on Second Liens : HousingWire || financial news for the mortgage market
On the positive side, [Obama] said the U.S. has "seen some stabilization in the financial markets, and that's good because that means companies can borrow and banks are starting to lend again."
This is so wrong on so many levels. At half current trends we'll be 11%+ middle of 2010 so the "tics up" prediction is more of an admission of "tango uniform." But back the quote I except here. This is the essence of why we are nowhere near stabilization.
"Borrowing and lending are not the economy."
There is excess debt and leverage in the economy. No amount of renewed lending or leverage can fix that. Obama is faced with the prospect of either throwing the financial sector or the entire economy under the bus and he isn't [yet] up to the task of making the choice. "The Cold Equations" may end up making the decision for him.
albrt-
I'm with you on this one. The debt financed economy exists because we've done little to increase our per capita incomes. Only way to do that is through technology. The question is....why has the pace of technological innovation slowed?
I just want to re-emphasize how critically important it was for the fed and treasury to preserve our "free" markets with $14 trillion in bailouts and guarantees.
Goldman's monster Q2 earnings and record planned year end bonuses really underscore the importance of "free" markets.
"Nobody can argue that private markets have been allocating capital efficently or effectively for the last ten years. "
You actually believe we have had private markets for the past 10 (or 100) years?
BTW, I like Meredith's estimate of 13% unemployment. A couple of years back I estimated 12%-17% because those are the numbers that economists have come up with for the Depression of 1893 based on production data from the time.
If we have 13% unemployment I don't think people will refer to the episode as simply a "recession".
But we are being programmed to love Goldman Sachs don't you know:
Why We Should Cheer Goldman's Fat Profits
Also like this
Poor IT job market may fuel online crime: Cisco
That some intelligent people even mouth these words makes you want to believe that 2012 really is the end
I need to look up and what the next end-of-the-world date after 2012 is so that I can start exploiting peoples irrational fears for that one. Ideally something around 2023 would be good. Articles, books, TV appearances, I've always wanted to be the profit of the new apocalypse ( I used profit deliberately
The number of long-term unemployed (i.e., for 27 weeks or more) has now jumped to 4.4 million, an all-time high.
I am officially Elite now!
Agreed with the ghostly one, the admin/Fed has successfully funded the coffers of GS. Well, yay.
How will we cover the massive deficits we're running with a "jobless recovery"?
Keynsian multiplier thingies aided by magic Krugman dust.
The basic problem is that, once you strip away all the fluff, there's too many people and not enough things to do. So we need to find more things to do, or we need less people. I'd prefer the former solution.
ac-
How do you pay off the debts with a jobless recovery. It's called trash your currency!!!
Yep. And that will lead to another credit crisis.
It may look a lot different than 2008, but the consequences will be the same -- less access to real borrowing and the economic side effects of that in a credit dependent economy.
splat I think there is a near miss approach for a world ending asteroid around that time...we get it twice again later in the century...
Greater Fool:
"Too many people and not enough things to do". You do realize this is basically one of Marx's critiques of capitalism....through productivity increases the value of labor continues to decrease....
nades: coin prices
Coin prices generally reflect the bullion price with a premium (discount) to reflect supply and demand. Canadian Maple Leafs are
The US Mint sells American Eagles at a 3% premium to the underlying bullion value.
The trading prices that I've seen recently have Eagles trading at a 103.36% bid-106.5% ask spread over bullion.
The Canadian Maple Leafs usually trade at around a 1% discount to American Eagles.
Here is another source of prices:
CCE Bullion prices
click thru to view the page.
The retail market is very inefficient so the bid-ask spreads and premiums of 1 oz. bullion are all over the place.
"Getting a Second Opinion on Second Liens "
Wiping out a second lien == debt foregiveness == principal reduction.
Clearly where we are heading. If you are underwater on your mortgage today and in trouble making payments, hold out, you will eventually get a principal reduction (ETA 6 months).
there's too many people and not enough things to do. So we need to find more things to do, or we need less people. I
No, we need to redistribute the existing work to match the existing workforce.
OT question but if figure there are enough glod buffs here that someone might know. Can anyone explain the major differences in prices for 1 oz as listed here... Whats so special about the type of coin?
Nades,
Also, certain coins have curreny value, meaning in the event of illegalization of gold, they wouldn't be subject to confiscation.
I know Kruggerands have some base metals mixed in, so it's not 100% pure gold. At the end of the day though, an ounce is an ounce, and if gold goes to $2000-3000, no one will really care in what form that ounce comes.
As for silver, I would probably stay away from paying the premiums on American Eagles and go for the rounds instead.
"there's too many people and not enough things to do. So we need to find more things to do, or we need less people."
Why do you think wars exist?
Or the war against "global warming"?
Broward, so you're championing the 3 day work week? I'll support your platform.
LOL. Good luck with that, broward.
I hate outsourcing. I hate Indian techs and customer suport. There is no company here. I buy from a local "sales" office but that is where it ends.
Call To Probe Virginia Outsourcing Deal
Posted by Paul McDougall on July 8, 2009 12:00 PM
Virginia's largest newspaper is calling for a public inquiry into a troubled outsourcing contract that has resulted in the firing of the state's CIO.
State CIO Lemuel Stewart last month criticized Northrop Grumman's performance on Virginia's ten-year, $2.3 billion outsourcing deal with the contractor. He was swiftly canned by the board that oversees Virginia's IT operations.
Gee, what a surprise. The board that canned him has former Northrop and Oracle employees on it.
Complaints about Northrop's performance include allegations that the contractor has missed several, key implementation milestones. Northrop Grumman was slated to fully takeover management of Virginia's IT operations on July 1st, but that deadline has come and gone.
"Too many people and not enough things to do". You do realize this is basically one of Marx's critiques of capitalism....through productivity increases the value of labor continues to decrease....
The problem I have with Marx is that if there's "not enough things for people to do" in a capitalist system that means they essentially cannot be paid for doing these things (because the activities are not profitable).
Most people I know would rather stay home and do nothing than go to work and not get paid.
dupe
Greater Fool, bing bing bing.
More things for people to do.
health care reform represents how much construction and remodeling of clinics to provide public clinics and get people out of the expensive emergency room?
Govermentium will grow, as the charade of wall street fails. Now we just need more new products to make a happy healthy society!
Maybe we should legalize some of the DSHEA foolishness, everybody needs anabolic steriods in their cornflakes!
Just decently inspecting imports and moving towards a model of regulation that makes sense would push a lot of jobs.
We should think about making some sort of urban renewal driven by cheap housing again.
Anything to partially fill the output gap. That gap is going to be brutal, judging by the number of folks attempting to make a living off of craigslist.
Someday this war's gonna end...
JimPortland
I keep trying to get my head around what a "jobless recovery" actually looks like. Doesn't money have to be distributed and spent for a recovery? If it's not going to happen through traditional means (jobs, credit), I guess a jobless recovery means direct handouts/subsidies.
Either that, or the distribution of wealth will be even more inequitable than it already is, with those at the top driving a "recovery", and more and more unemployed/underemployed barely able to survive.
No greater fool then the public. Obama doesn't have a crystal ball. Duh, He is using a crisis and amplifying it for his greed an political gain. There can be no recovery with our real simultaneous and real long term jobs. None on the horizon as he continues to absorb new tax streams through banks and major business. Growing UE only makes many more dependent on the crumbs he is serving up.
previous pigged:
Bob Dobbs (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:05 pm replyIgnore userGov't out of marriage business? About time.
Gov't should recognize "civil unions" with certain rights and responsibilities for all couples -- the same that marrieds have now. Churches can "marry you in the eyes of God;" but that's outside the civil equation.
It's stupid that a certain type of contract honored by society -- a particular package of rights and responsibilities -- can only be exercised between a man and a woman. From a legal standpoint, i suspect that many lawyers would agree.
BD,
I know we are different sides on the political prism on most not all and here is a perfect example.
I am a christain, religious and spritual. I am a federal minimist and fiscal conservative. But i have always maintained that marriage is religous and that has been the religious arguement i think just not articulated correctly by the masses. And irresponsiblby articulated b7y those who assume to speak for them.
But i have always belived that all states recognize the marriage ceremoney as a civil union and not vice versa. And that all should be aforded civil unions under the state and all the pluses and minuses that come with them.
maybe the states should get out of the business of recognizing marriages (slight separation of C&S) and only recognize civil unions the those that favor opposite sex marriage only could have that but would have to get a civil union to be recognized.
funny seems they get the argument backwards.....
LOL. Good luck with that, broward.
It's what happened from 1873-1878 / 1893-1897 in two stages and from 1928 to 1935.
Obama has is no answer or solution for ....
THE VANISHING MIDDLE CLASS THE VANISHING CLASS - NYPOST.com
A new report by Forrester Research Study supports controversial offshore numbers :
News : Business - ZDNet Asia says more than 3 million U.S. jobs will move offshore by 2015
False 'hope and change' does not cut it
I know others have echoed this thought before but I am waiting for the day we all get our hamster wheels so we can do our part to generate power. Be like a cross between the Matrix and Soylent Green...you know that bike Heston rode to generator power for the television...There's an instant growth model...puts everyone to work, solves the health care crisis with exercise, and global warming is a thing of the past....
While he said he doesn't have a "crystal ball," Mr. Obama said ...
You would think crystal ball would have been at the top of the infrastructure list.
Next thing you know, Obama will announce that breaking ground on the new Detroit pixie-dust factory is behind schedule.
He's a Constitutional law professor, not Krugman or Roubini. Besides, sadly, it appears he prefers to listen to neo-liberals. Ugh!!
AllenM-
Urban renewal....good idea but land sellers are too smart and want top dollar. They've figured that angle out too. You'll have to have the government expropriate the land you want.
False 'hope and change' does not cut it
I can't believe anyone fell for that
It's just amazing to me sometimes how entrenched certain frameworks are.
The forty-hour workweek is a direct result of the Great Depression.
The preceding 48-hour workweek was a direct result of the Industrial Revolution.
Now, I'll admit it may not happen in the United States but only because the productivity gains are in China and India.
And they WILL do it or the U.S. will have to put up tariffs.
1 + 1 = 2, always.
You can't continue to produce goods that people can't afford to purchase.
In the longer term, it really doesn't matter what the fed or government does from here. The fed & treasury's actions to date will only make matters worse as they heighten awareness of the inequities and corruption in the system. More and more will realize that the system is set up to serve the few at the expense of the many. Beyond that, debt levels are too high and the outlook for future income is bleak.
I remain strongly in favor of letting the free markets dish out our well deserved debt purge. Fast and furious.
Consider this. If we did let the free markets decimate the financial community, scores of laid off and newly poor wall streeters would be begging for health care reform.
Speaking of Detroit, Seems Bob Luzt is eying a import that is not a Obama Can car. Why are they still trying to workaround the UAW? Pretty obvious isn't it?
freep.com | | Detroit Free Press
Bankerwannabe: I keep trying to get my head around what a "jobless recovery" actually looks like.
Bubble/Bailout Glossary:
"Jobless Recovery" = Stagflation.
Okay, this takes the cake.....zombie robots...my god we are in such a rush to build skynet.
Upcoming Military Robot Could Feed on Dead Bodies
CR. You had a decidedly pessimistic tone in that post. I'm not sure why that caught me by surprise, but it did...
You can't continue to produce goods that people can't afford to purchase.
The prevailing economic theory seems to be for the producer to simply loan you money to purchase the goods you can't afford. Then keep repeating this indefinitely.
Although it doesn't seem to be working all that well for the global economy right now.....
Moody’s Expects US CMBS Delinquencies to Reach 5-6%
Research Recap » Blog Archive » Moody’s Expects US CMBS Delinquencies to Reach 5-6%
WiW, I can do an easy button on that too- tax rates on vacant urban renewal property are now higher than property in use.
Viola! Instant urban renewal. The dream of squatting vacant property for some dream return died last year. Now, the entire purpose of a lot is to put something on it that will generate a return to the community.
Specusquatting died last year. Land we have coming out our ears everywhere but SF, Portland, Manhattan, and a few really constrained places.
Yesterday's article on Billyburg showed it in spades.
Time for economic reality to set in. The great real estate boom is dead. Dead and gone. Taxes are going up, so we might as well target them selectively to remake the urban environment.
Want a tax break? Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America.
Someday this war's gonna end...
1 + 1 = 2, always.
Didn't you work in the field that says: 1+1=10, 10+1=11, 11+1=100 ?
Okay, this takes the cake.....zombie robots...my god we are in such a rush to build skynet.
Upcoming Military Robot Could Feed on Dead Bodies
I'm stating up front I am and always have been on the side of the robots. When you suddenly end up on tier 2 of the foodchain compromise may be a good idea.
-splat
For the millionth time. There is no such thing as a jobless recovery in a debt money system. The last "recovery" was nothing of the sort. It only seemed like a recovery while people were impoverishing themselves with unpayable debts.
It is my belief that to maintain the dollar's reserve currency status, Bernanke will only purify a small amount of the last recovery's bogus debt. He will purify just enough to keep the system from imploding.
The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Can I get help fill in the latest numbers (links to figures):
How many people are on the government's payroll system?
bank
auto
insurance
investment broker
semi-financial
welfare
federal
state
local
social security
prison system
contractor working solely with state/federal
splat,
Made me think of Wall-e, innocent movie there just replace solar power with corpse power....same idea, more or less...
"I am a christain, religious and spritual. I am a federal minimist and fiscal conservative. But i have always maintained that marriage is religous and that has been the religious arguement i think just not articulated correctly by the masses. And irresponsiblby articulated b7y those who assume to speak for them."
I'm more of a Christian agnostic; I have been to many different churches of different denominations, and belong to one now. And though there's something to like about most of them, my experiences helped me reach the conclusion that theology and civil law are an unnatural mix.
When I decided to buy a house with my then-girlfriend, with the title in my name, it was my CPA and lawyer came down on me like a ton of bricks -- danger, danger, danger. The lawyer warned against trying to recreate marital rights and privileges with a series of agreements; too hard to enforce, too easy to be ignored or challenged. So, separate the civil and the spiritual. Render to Caesar...
The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Yes.
A lot of 2001-2007 was not real work or it was front-loaded work into the future.
The fraud is tacitly supported because it moves money into the general economy to reflate.
@Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 10:57 am
For the millionth time. There is no such thing as a jobless recovery in a debt money system......The so called jobless recovery was a bonanza of financial fraud.
Bingo because Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans
FT.com / Comment / Opinion - Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret
Think again if you think the big O is going to upset the financial scheme apple cart on his watch
Gov has to spend spend spend to prop up weak US economy with budget deficit this yr close to $2Trillion!
Palin 4 Prez.
Didn't you work in the field that says: 1+1=10, 10+1=11, 11+1=100 ?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
Prez 4 Pez Dispenser!
Crime rates are going to be skyrocketing over the next few years. The blue collar crimes in particular. People robbing and stealing initially for food and shelter, then as employment continues to be high over time it will become more organized and wide spread.
Bonnie and Clyde allover again.
Unemployment up, Goldman bonuses up, it's all good.
So glad the New Boss looks just like the Old Boss.
I'd pay close attention to what AllenM is suggesting - whether you agree or disagree in principle I think it is close as it gets to WORD...
BTW taxing land a la some Neo-Georgian movement and subsequently subsidizing 'development' on same would do a lot to increase employment... of course it might also exacerbate the oversupply of Mini-McCondos and such. Won't be a 'problem' though as long as Goldman Sachs finds a way to profit from it.
Sorry if this has already been discussed but with CA giving out IOU's are people on CA state unemployment getting IOU's? BTW, I am on wage reduction (10%) since June, hence the reason for my question.......
My nightmare is that Palin forces a split in the "deer caught in the headlights" remains of the Republican party, and runs as a new 3rd party conservative...I want a new party, but if Palin runs one, it will be the death to any serious consideration of a new party for some time. Just my two cents.
You really need to spell check...
Punitive taxation on "underutilized" real property is just a State grab of the land asset. It is no different in principle or effect than eminent domain for economic reasons.
a State grab of the land asset.
The State will have indigestion soon enough.
BD,
Seems we are always rendering doesn't it?
;)~
"a slight decrease in the increase of incline of stopage" Boston ports guy on cnbs
"Bingo because Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans"
Bingo again. As much as I am a free marketer, I would like to see some kind of tax on "wealth", rather than income, in order to bring better equality. Maybe even more progressive inheritance taxes would do the trick.
I am all for someone making money through hard work or inventiveness (e.g. the Google guys), but spend the damn money or give it away while you are still alive.
All this wealth hoarding is very, very bad for society.
I know Kruggerands have some base metals mixed in, so it's not 100% pure gold.
Maples and buffalos are 24k (pure gold). This also makes them soft and easily damaged.
Krugs are a mix of gold and copper. I like the ruddy red glow of a Krug but that is pure personal taste.
American Eagles are a mix of gold, silver, and copper.
All 1 oz coins, regardless of mix contain a full 1 oz of gold.
This sometimes confuses people new to bullion, thinking that a Krug or Eagle doesn't contain a full 1 oz of gold.
Punitive taxation on "underutilized" real property is just a State grab of the land asset.
Yup... but won't face the same fierce political backlash ED does ESPECIALLY if coupled with tax friendly 'incentives' to develop. Then it isn't confiscation as much as tax driven central planning. We been in that mode since what... 1969?
California needs to issue equity, not debt which it can't pay back anyway.
Seriously, sell off shares of what assets it actually owns.
GS will help out, it might even bring its little green shoes.
albrt (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:28 pm
Reich is right - we can't "recover" because there is no plausible set of circumstances that would allow the 2005 FIRE economy to come back on a broad scale.
All they have to do is add government stimulus to create GRIEF.
That acronym cheats a little but FIRE is an anagram of REFI and FREI.
Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans
km4,
I see it a little differently. Debt is capitalism's dirty little secret as long as the free market can create the non-eCONomic debt and lay it off on the fed or the government. Absent that corrupt CONnection, capitalism would create productive debt and a better distribution of wealth.
Bad money forces out good money. Bad debt forces out good debt.
Will Goldman's record earnings based on government bailouts increase or decrease the likelihood of bubbles and shams in the future?
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 2:09 pm
it will be the death.... agreed!
"it does appear the unemployment rate will rise well into 2010 - and then stay elevated for some time as the U.S. suffers with another jobless recovery."
So how many repeated jobless recoveries will we have before there are no jobs left at all?
I read that gold coins are alloyed for durability.
agreeeeeeeed
Phew! Thank God it is only ticking.
Property tax is a wealth tax.
Estate tax is a wealth tax.
Phew! Thank God it is only ticking.
Ken needs to include a
icon...
California needs to issue equity, not debt which it can't pay back anyway.
Seriously, sell off shares of what assets it actually owns.
This would work for the US and individuals as well. And then after the assets are gone, what do we sell?
The manufacturer of mine went out of business when they failed to anticipate demand.
Property tax is a wealth tax.
Estate tax is a wealth tax
Yes and your point is...?
Right. Alloys are more durable, more suitable for circulation. All U.S. gold and silver coins meant for circulation were alloyed.
Pre-1965 silver coins were 90% silver, 10% copper. This compares with UK sterling at 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper IIRC.
i would assume that as far as jobless recoveries go , they really only apply to those with jobs, no?
Inflation is a wealth tax.
Ghost said he wanted to see a wealth tax.
" broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:34 pm
The number of long-term unemployed (i.e., for 27 weeks or more) has now jumped to 4.4 million, an all-time high.
I am officially Elite now!"
Or at least a trend setter-
I read that gold coins are alloyed for durability.
Most.
I believe the American eagle is mixed with copper and is one of the more durable coins.
There's a couple of pure gold coins, I don't rememer which ones, though.
"
Phew! Thank God it is only ticking.
Ken needs to include a
icon...
"
He can just use the one from the TickerForum site. Unfortunately I need two 60" monitors to fit the whole thing onto my screen as it's a tad large.
wealth taxes at the federal level are direct taxes, and must be apportioned to the states. I don't think flyover senators would be amenable to such a proposal.
so we just inflate.
"There's a couple of pure gold coins"
Canadian maples and Austria Philharmonics I believe.
" broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 1:37 pm
No, we need to redistribute the existing work to match the existing workforce."
You're joking, right? Skill and performance shouldn't factor in? That's the union line-
Right. Alloys are more durable, more suitable for circulation. All U.S. gold and silver coins meant for circulation were alloyed.
Pre-1965 silver coins were 90% silver, 10% copper. This compares with UK sterling at 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper IIRC.
100% gold is very soft & malleable... Spanish pieces of eight as example... easy to cut into eighths and pirates could bite them to 'assay'... do that with most 'alloys' and you break your teeth.
Inflation is a wealth tax.
And deflation a debtor's tax.
"There's a couple of pure gold coins"
there is also the Solid Gold Dancers
Solid Gold Dancers
I wonder whether Ken could implement an automatic filter that would instaban any user that posted a link to Sorry. Page not found. . That would be nice. Would have to be extensible to other kinds of misbehavior to be worthwhile of course...
Our children. And when they're gone, our souls.
Oh...wait, Goldman Sachs already has our souls...
You're joking, right? Skill and performance shouldn't factor in? That's the union line-
No, I'm quite serious.
If you want a stable society.
"100% gold is very soft & malleable"
Agreed. I dented a few maples that way, dropping to the tile
It's hard not to play with them; although my favorite is a Britannia.
http://www.atsbullion.com/images/large/d_162.jpg
"Inflation is a wealth tax."
But a very regressive one.
We need progressive wealth/inheritance taxes.
Property tax is NOT a wealth tax, as we know most property is not owned outright, but financed with debt.
i.e. a person with a $100K house debt free has a lot more "property wealth" than a person with a $2MM house and a $2.5MM mortgage.
Or we can just keep going on down the road to a banana republic.
My expectation is that we will probably continue to see unemployment tick up for several months," Mr. Obama told reporters ...
Ticks suck blood, like zombies.
You're joking, right? Skill and performance shouldn't factor in? That's the union line-
No, I'm quite serious.
If you want a stable society.
I think that's what a society has to decide - wealth vs. stability.
I think to some extent they're mutually exclusive.
If so, then you have sort of a game theory type problem where if one nation chooses "stability" and less wealth formation, then that increases the payoff for some other nation to choose "instability" and potentially greater wealth formation.
That doesn't mean the instability won't lead to disaster, but a rational analysis of the risk/reward ratio may start to turn positive.
Inflation is a wealth tax?
Well, in our system, said tax is levied against wages and production, both of which are generally only spendable after delivery of output and often after inflation has occurred. Asset owners and those that use leverage to control assets or future output end up gathering much of the inflation on output they don't produce.
And when they over-estimate said future output or inflation, the fed makes them whole.
If you want to write explosively say BOOM after all punctuation marks while typing.
oh CR you didn't - dammit - there is no such thing as a jobless recovery!
The forty-hour work week was already underway in private industry a few years before the Great Depression.
By 1935, there was enough public support to pass our currrent labor laws.
I think to some extent they're mutually exclusive.
Sigh.
AC, what's your educational background?
You can't consume more than you produce.
What you produce isn't necessarily consumed but if you want efficiency, it is.
There is no dichotomy between wealth and stability.
Henry Ford laid all this almost a hundred years ago.
Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When Ford started the 40-hour work week and a minimum wage he was criticized by other industrialists and by Wall Street. He proved, however, that paying people more would enable Ford workers to afford the cars they were producing and be good for the economy.
You, like almost all the investors here, are still viewing this as a "how can I make a big pile of money for myself, fuck evreryone else" mentality. It really is annoying sometimes. THE MONEY DOES NOT MATTER.
Love Britannias have many in Gold and Silver form...just a great looking coin.
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 5:20 pm
Then there's the thing he didn't say....."we're FUBAR in the 2010 Congressional elections....health care, Soto and two more SCOTUSes, green energy....all better happen this year...."
Irate Obama did scold that health care better happen this year:
A defiant President Barack Obama says health care overhaul will be done this year.
During a Rose Garden event Monday to introduce his pick for surgeon general, Obama brushed off doubts and congressional delays. He said: "Don't bet against us. We are going to make this happen."
The president warned that inaction will create a bigger crisis.
The article requested is no longer available.
"Want a tax break? Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America."
You can do that now; private subsidized housing corps. are good at putting together a land donor/land owner and a deal for some kind of subsidized housing; submit it to the feds, and if you get the OK you can sell tax credits to investors to fund the development. The deal can be made to pay out in a variety of ways for the different parties.
Churches with excess property are involved in this bigtime; the deal is usually structured so that they 1) get cash up front, 2) get the building and property back in 50 years or so, and 3) don't have to manage it themselves. The developer pays itself for construction costs and management fees, and the investor gets tax credits. Most churches go for the subsidized senior housing instead of subsidized low-income housing for families because, frankly, Christian goodness only goes so far these days and they think that seniors will be less trouble.
The trouble is hitting the sweet spot -- tenants can't make more than X amount, but still have to be able to afford the rent necessary to do the deal. And that's not everybody. In fact, that's not a lot of people.
But I agree -- tax incentives for the kind of economic activity/investments that society decides (we hope) are constructive.
The Billyburg Bust
A working-class neighborhood became a bohemian theme park, which in turn became a fantasyland for luxury-condo developers. Now, littered with half-built shells of a vanished boom, Williamsburg is looking like something else entirely:
The Bust of the Williamsburg Condo Boom -- New York Magazine
More doomed condo projects.
OT-GM CEO says July sales appear weaker than year ago
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Obama and Timmy,
how's that investment looking, did we setup a stop loss....
auto credit applications are down again this month....no bottom here
look here to see a real bottom....
http://www.famemarket.com/pic/0711141354.jpg
Sigh.
AC, what's your educational background?
You can't consume more than you produce.
What you produce isn't necessarily consumed but if you want efficiency, it is.
There is no dichotomy between wealth and stability.
Education - I had about 5 majors. IIRC I got a degree in computer engineering or math or something like that. I was drunk at the time so my memory is a bit hazy.
I make that comment about wealth/stability from reading about biology and the history of life - all "progress" looks like war to me.
When Ford started the 40-hour work week and a minimum wage he was criticized by other industrialists and by Wall Street. He proved, however, that paying people more would enable Ford workers to afford the cars they were producing and be good for the economy.
Ford never proved this. Ford cut wages in the Great Depression.
Wealth comes from productivity, not nominal wages.
You, like almost all the investors here, are still viewing this as a "how can I make a big pile of money for myself, fuck evreryone else" mentality. It really is annoying sometimes. THE MONEY DOES NOT MATTER.
It matters to me. =(
Build subsidized old folks housing, which we will need to triple or quadruple based on the demographic reality coming to America.
And once they have all us Boomers trapped inside these buildings? No thanks, I've learned a thing or two about Vlad Tepes social planning.
Just kidding,...
I think.
I think the deal is...Wall Street agrees to keep pumping up the stock market indexes...and Obama gives Wall Street immunity against everything.
That might work for awhile.
@ Angry Saver (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 11:14 am
Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret and excessive lending is the only way to maintain the living standards of Americans
km4,
I see it a little differently. Debt is capitalism's dirty little secret as long as the free market can create the non-eCONomic debt and lay it off on the fed or the government.
right and assuming we can get China, Japan, others to continue to buy our debt or else game over
In the category of "Bills That Will Never Pass" At least the House doesn't consider couples making $250K as "rich".
House Health Plan Seeks 5.4 Percent Millionaire Tax (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
House Health Plan Seeks 5.4 Percent Millionaire Tax (Update1)
Share | Email | Print | A A A
By Ryan J. Donmoyer and Kristin Jensen
July 14 (Bloomberg) -- House Democrats plan to introduce health-care legislation today that would impose a 5.4 percent surtax on couples earning more than $1 million.
The measure would also place a 1.5 percent tax on couples with incomes between $500,000 and $1 million and a 1 percent surtax on incomes over $350,000. The provision calls for higher taxes if the overhaul doesn’t produce at least $150 billion in cost savings over a decade.
wealth comes from monopoly. pure and simple.
monopoly or degree of monopoly over:
whether it be legal or illegal. monopolize any combination of the above and you get wealth.
Ex:
-Standard Oil
-Microsoft
-GS
Wealth comes from people being able to afford something.. how can you afford something if you have no money.
Wealth comes from people being able to afford something.. how can you afford something if you have no money.
CREDIT!!!!!!!!!!!! ............Oh wait.
Would inflation be a flat tax?
Property tax is a gross wealth tax but a mortgage or car loan figures in net wealth.
I assume there will be a cost of living adjustment as is the case with GSE loan caps on the graudated surtax. lol
For a portrait of the state of the Union look no further than the Congressional idiots
I think that many do not understand the difference between wealth, money and control. They are three different things.. not the same.
Would inflation be a flat tax?
No - it falls disproportionately on those who don't understand money or are not financially mobile.
It is a highly regressive tax.
This is why it makes nations poor.
"Would inflation be a flat tax?"
Inflation is effectively a consumption tax, which is regressive on income.
@girlbear
Sorry if this has already been discussed but with CA giving out IOU's are people on CA state unemployment getting IOU's? BTW, I am on wage reduction (10%) since June, hence the reason for my question.......
UI in Cali is still issued in cashable checks, not IOUs. It's funded indirectly by the fed - so not part of the "general fund". Thank goodness. (Family member is collecting.)
ac (profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 6:48 pm
No - it falls disproportionately on those who don't understand money
Like Fed chairmen, Treasury secretaries, and presidents?
or are not financially mobile.
Those who invest in other currencies realize the inflation tax upon repatriation.
we will not monetize (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 7/14/2009 - 2:44 pm replyIgnore userwealth comes from monopoly. pure and simple.
monopoly or degree of monopoly over:
i have wealth, not close to a monopoly, but produce what enough people are willing to pay for....
Inflation taxes consumption less than savings.
Inflation taxes, from most to least:
Savings
Consumption
Debt
The purpose of inflation from FDR to Bernanke is to make consumption a better bargain than savings to a rational actor.
Well I do have a "crystal ball" and can't see Obama being re-elected
Something that stood out to me in the last unemployment report was the median duration of unemployment. It jumped by 3 weeks in just one months time to 17.9 weeks! It's also easily the worst measure for that series during modern recessions. It seems like we're really having a hard time getting some of these folks back on the payroll.
On the next thread, I got THIS message:
DRUPAL - Site off-line
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