Its a good things that OLD GM didn't have to pay any student loans or credit cards that can't be forgiven in a bankruptcy of "real" people. Corporate "Persons" (under the law) have superior rights to citizens. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be under our Constitution that never mentions corporations?
volker the viking (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/10/2009 - 9:04 am reply Ignore user AIG is now a single digit midget AFTER the reverse split, bids around 9.30 this AM.
Lemme see, was it 20 to one reverse? so, divvy this by 20 and the original price would be discovered to be 46 or 47 cents a share split adjusted
And the Compensation Czar will allow them million $$$ bonuses accordingly
Any one notice there has been no mention on selling Holden, Daewoo, GM China? All Euro and some US lines are going away. Could it be that the growth market is in Asia? This show Europe and the US consumer has no increase buying potential.
Anyone know how far down in its position the taxpayer is in GM? The amount of money that we gave them, then gave up in bankruptcy should be part of the equation. I'm guessing the taxpayer needs to make back about 1000% of what's left of its GM investment.
Taxpayers will never see a dime of profits from any of these business deals. Barney Frank is working on that right now. Just new tax revenue stream for the Gov.
I don't know ... I thought "Vehicle Acquisition Company" had a certain Soviet-style literal flair.
Fit right in with other government naming conventions.
Sort of like "Department of Agriculture," or "Bureau of Land Management," or something.
From previous thread "have we got anything paid off?" @gabyjan
Yes. Recently (last coupla years) a Federal Tax on telecommunications was removed because the gov't bond, used to help finance the Spanish American War, was paid off.
we will not monetize...............most excellent observation quipped with "sardonicism;" Origin:
1630–40; alter. of earlier sardonian --alluding to a Sardinian plant which when eaten was supposed to produce convulsive laughter ending in death
JimPortlandOR: Its a good things that OLD GM didn't have to pay any student loans or credit cards that can't be forgiven in a bankruptcy of "real" people. Corporate "Persons" (under the law) have superior rights to citizens. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be under our Constitution that never mentions corporations?
Isn't it cool to live in a cyperpunk novel where the cops brace people and squeeze them out across multiple national jurisdictions for you because you're worried someone MIGHT be using your proprietary data?
Not too much question about who really runs America -- the question is, when will the suckers who still worship Brand Donkee and Brand Elefunt notice that Sarah Palin and the O are the same depthless media phantom.
Apropos of the prior post (now pigged prematurely) -- Looking at the big version of the chart in detail, I'd say what we're seeing is NOT the "end of cliff-diving" in trade, it's just that we've gone from fast ("rapid collapse") to normal ("generic recession") rates-of-decline.
In terms of average downhill slope (for imports) or the trend defined by lower-lows and lower-highs (exports), the rate of decline now looks "just" like the 2001 recession. Maybe imports are declining a bit more slowly (for the moment), but with oil prices trending down again that slope might steepen a bit again.
More apropos of prior post: the dollar, having fallen in the past few months, accounts for a significant part of the break-in-slope on the trade picture. Export prices up 0.8% m-o-m? Import prices up 0.2%? Only in dollar terms!
we will not monetize (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 7/10/2009 - 9:15 am the best part comes when you go to buy your next GM
Buy? Only nominally. I imagine the tax credit for buying one will swiftly rise until it nearly covers the purchase price. It will work because our trade partners can't figure out how to get rid of us and never shall, no matter how much we impose on them.
And remember, if we didn't pursue these policies, the unspecified alternatives would be MUCH MUCH WORSE. Flying spaghetti monsters would carry off your kids. If Japan hadn't said "yes" to the lost two decades, they'd have had cannibalism.
QED. Keynesian stimulus spending is never wrong, and if it is, it's because you just didn't do it enough.
Chrysler has been out of BK for about a month and they don't seem to be tearing up the marketplace. I don't know if GM will be successful any time soon, even without their debt burden.
They left retiree health care with the bad GM. Who is going to pay for those liabilities? Look in the mirror.
How do you say "green shoots" in Mandarin and Cantonese?
China’s Exports Slide for Eighth Month as Import Decline Slows
July 10 (Bloomberg) -- China’s exports fell for an eighth month as the global recession cut demand, highlighting the economy’s dependence on stimulus spending to revive growth.
Overseas sales slid 21.4 percent in June from a year earlier, the customs bureau said today on its Web site, after a record 26.4 percent drop in May.
Imports fell a less-than-estimated 13.2 percent, the smallest decline in eight months, signaling that the worst may almost be over for the nation’s trade. China, the world’s second-biggest exporter, has stalled gains by the yuan against the dollar and increased export-tax rebates as the government’s 4 trillion yuan ($585 billion) stimulus package drives an economic recovery.
I love W. Gibson, haven't read Spook Country yet. In one of the recent books, he wrote in the forward that reality was getting so distorted that it made more sense for him to start writing about what is happening now instead of speculating on near future. Plenty of current dystopia to write about.
VonBek: Byz,
At this point I have given up hope for an internal solution. Some external event will hold our salvation or damnation.
Oh, we're going to crash this puppy into a wall at full speed. There's no way they're ever going to be able to spend substantially less on stimulus than they are spending now, because every time they try to and there's the most minuscule economic downturn, parallels will be drawn with defense spending and 9/11 (or something -- it helps that the people doing the drawing start at the destination and don't care if what they're saying is factually correct) and we'll have to go back to mega-spending to "prevent an economic 9/11" or whatever the rhetoric of the day is.
You can see it already with people starting to draw parallels with 1937. Krug and all the other professional gasbags will make sure they're not publicly seen to make a wrong call in calling for fiscal discipline too early by condemning anyone who mentions the concept of fiscal discipline as a libertarian jihadist with no concept of reality, and then saying their cause was just, their intentions were pure and whocoodanode when the dollar crisis comes.
That's just the nature of US domestic politics at this time. Anybody who brings up the idea of finite resources or careful policy is an America-hater -- either that we can't kill everyone who disagrees with us and jam our fist down the throat of every country in the world simultaneously, or that we can't spend however much money the most professionally breathless activist says is needed to achieve whatever the social goal du jour is -- because the thing the Mayans absolutely do not want to hear is that their agricultural system and population explosion is totally unsustainable.
Scanning headlines again this morning....everyone is still trying to sell optimism. Liked the "we're on the cusp of stabilization"... It is like the stereotypical family vacation. 'Are we there yet?'
Any idea if / when we'll see this quarter's rollover on the national debt chart? Is there a release day for the data in it, or is it energyecon time-constrained and I should shut up?
Byz,
"because the thing the Mayans absolutely do not want to hear is that their agricultural system and population explosion is totally unsustainable."
Bingo, that is the key. Again, we are seeing 'over-leverage' in every aspect of American life. And I agree with 'crashing into the wall at full speed'. Hell The Starship Enterprise is at warp 9.9...Either we blow up or go back in time....not seeing much hope of escaping the massive singularity that is dragging us down.
On my block about half the houses have been lived in by the same people for over 12 years. Out of 20 houses we have had 3 foreclosures. The last one the bank dumped at 100k below anyrhing else selling like it.
My neighbor at the end has lived there over 20 years. She is in her late 50's and worked at a bank for years processing mortgage paperwork. Her daughter lives with her and she has 2 kids.
I saw her out last evening and brought her some tomatos. We got to talking and she told me she had been unemployed for awhile. Her a/c had died and her garage door had broke. Then she told me her daughter had been let go last week. This was mixed in with the rest of the conversation.
This was a woman who always presented her self with confidence. It is gone. This is a woman who is scared, very scared. It reminded me a lot of Bob Dobbs story. She had perfect hair, lives in a good area, has an okay car, and it is only a matter of time before they go over the financial edge.
"the weavers live up the street from me
the crackheads, they live down the street from me
the tall grass makes it hard to see
beyond my property
hey man, this is criminal,
this hard line symmetry of people and pets"
Yeah, maybe the new GM won't work, or maybe it will.
Don't you think the outcome so far of having GM auto workers working again is better than having GM bond holders liquidating GM to get their money back and GM autoworkers on the dole and not on the job or with any immediate prospects of working?
After the money we have given banksters... never mind, don't get me started..
My daughter is in summer school. Like her father, she is "math challenged." The school provides lunch for a fee. The problem is they are bringing it in from fast food places and charging for it. So lunch is going to cost her about $5.
Fine, she can bring one. What makes it interesting is that a lot of the kids in summer school were also the ones getting almost free lunches. They can't afford it and I guess there is nothing at home. So they don't eat.
My cooworker was telling me this morning about how theu converted the garage into a room for her Mom. Why? Because her sister and kids were homeless and Mom had a paid for house. Sis gets the house and Mom moves in with them.
The security guards as I came in were talking about how "its all about money" and how there is none out there.
nova,
I think that financial edge of the cliff is getting closer for a lot of people. Wife and I were talking about all the heated domestic disputes we are seeing in public over 'money' issues. More correctly, spending money issues. Nerves are frayed, and tempers are short. Best ones are dad's explaining to teenage daughters that cellphones aren't a necessity. Lots of families moving to pre-paid cells. Lots of teens unhappy.
The Mrs two youngest would LITERALLY be devastated without a mobile phone. It would be like them dropping off the face of the world.
Nova....the school food program is a crime. Used to be the schools PREPARED lunches - not ordered in from junk food establishments. Not to mention, coke machines in school? You gotta be kidding. How about white milk and REAL juice - not the kind "made from real fruit flavors"!
Many more are feeling it - and worried. When our local Fox News channel (night before last) spent more time on the bad economy than Hollywood, I even was shocked.
Is the Credit Bureau now going to tell the world that GM is a credit scumbag, like they do to a person that has his house foreclosed on by an evil bank?
Are we sure VAC doesn't stand for a money VACuum?
OT but a good read on health etc... Experimental Diet a Fountain of Youth for Monkeys | Wired Science | Wired.com
...............
Cool feed CR
This ain't going to work.
Good grief, that was fast. Reminds me of the band, Kiss. You know the deal, you can't have a reunion tour without a farewell tour.
what about this
House Committee Votes to Protect Auto Dealerships (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
tells gm and chrysler to make nice nice with dealers they threw away.
and maybe just maybe this is the reason their bk was so speedily done.
All these bailouts and interventions raise an important point. Who says the government is slow and inefficient?
Its a good things that OLD GM didn't have to pay any student loans or credit cards that can't be forgiven in a bankruptcy of "real" people. Corporate "Persons" (under the law) have superior rights to citizens. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be under our Constitution that never mentions corporations?
Hey - he thanked the taxpayers ... of course WE own GM now.
Angry Saver, in this case, they were very quick
best wishes
AIG is now a single digit midget AFTER the reverse split, bids around 9.30 this AM.
Lemme see, was it 20 to one reverse? so, divvy this by 20 and the original price would be discovered to be 46 or 47 cents a share split adjusted
We can eat!
the quick and the dead....
Hes going to have a website where people can write in ideas.... LOL.... That is going to get some priceless comments....
volker the viking (profile) wrote on Fri, 7/10/2009 - 9:04 am reply Ignore user AIG is now a single digit midget AFTER the reverse split, bids around 9.30 this AM.
Lemme see, was it 20 to one reverse? so, divvy this by 20 and the original price would be discovered to be 46 or 47 cents a share split adjusted
And the Compensation Czar will allow them million $$$ bonuses accordingly
AIG Prepares to Pay More Bonuses to Executives - Companies * US * News * Story - CNBC.com
That weird 12 strand comb over doesn't inspire confidence.
He had me at "ebay"
Any one notice there has been no mention on selling Holden, Daewoo, GM China? All Euro and some US lines are going away. Could it be that the growth market is in Asia? This show Europe and the US consumer has no increase buying potential.
I'm amused that he said "building more" rather than "selling more" cars.
Sounds to me like he just got thru reading "Good to Great" or "Built to Last"
Oddly enough GM was never included in those studies....
Is it selling to loan at no interest with cash back? When does a sale become a subsidized gift?
Angry Saver, in this case, they were very quick
They were indeed. Although it probably helps when allow yourself to take liberties with 400 years of CONtract law.
Does anyone know our VaR with AIG, FNM, FRE, GM, etc.
I'm trying get my own financial house in order and a rough calculation shows my family's share of our unfunded liabilities is approaching 800K!
Woah, I'm not saving enough.
Anyone know how far down in its position the taxpayer is in GM? The amount of money that we gave them, then gave up in bankruptcy should be part of the equation. I'm guessing the taxpayer needs to make back about 1000% of what's left of its GM investment.
the best part comes when you go to buy your next GM and you pay for 100% of a car that you already own 60% of.
that's my favorite part.
Taxpayers will never see a dime of profits from any of these business deals. Barney Frank is working on that right now. Just new tax revenue stream for the Gov.
I don't know ... I thought "Vehicle Acquisition Company" had a certain Soviet-style literal flair.
Fit right in with other government naming conventions.
Sort of like "Department of Agriculture," or "Bureau of Land Management," or something.
From previous thread "have we got anything paid off?"
@gabyjan
Yes. Recently (last coupla years) a Federal Tax on telecommunications was removed because the gov't bond, used to help finance the Spanish American War, was paid off.
Nice way for Congress to show constituents they care. Too late.
we will not monetize...............most excellent observation quipped with "sardonicism;" Origin:
1630–40; alter. of earlier sardonian --alluding to a Sardinian plant which when eaten was supposed to produce convulsive laughter ending in death
JimPortlandOR:
Its a good things that OLD GM didn't have to pay any student loans or credit cards that can't be forgiven in a bankruptcy of "real" people. Corporate "Persons" (under the law) have superior rights to citizens. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be under our Constitution that never mentions corporations?
Ex-Goldman Programmer Described Code Downloads to FBI (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Isn't it cool to live in a cyperpunk novel where the cops brace people and squeeze them out across multiple national jurisdictions for you because you're worried someone MIGHT be using your proprietary data?
Not too much question about who really runs America -- the question is, when will the suckers who still worship Brand Donkee and Brand Elefunt notice that Sarah Palin and the O are the same depthless media phantom.
Apropos of the prior post (now pigged prematurely) -- Looking at the big version of the chart in detail, I'd say what we're seeing is NOT the "end of cliff-diving" in trade, it's just that we've gone from fast ("rapid collapse") to normal ("generic recession") rates-of-decline.
In terms of average downhill slope (for imports) or the trend defined by lower-lows and lower-highs (exports), the rate of decline now looks "just" like the 2001 recession. Maybe imports are declining a bit more slowly (for the moment), but with oil prices trending down again that slope might steepen a bit again.
Interesting, because GM was the subject of the original book of that genre, Drucker's Concept of the Corporation.
It was published 63 years ago. At the time Sloan's GM was the model for how all corporations should be managed, all over the world.
It indicates that the lifespan of a huge modern corporation has become approximately the same as that of a human.
When does CA emerge from BK ?
Byz,
At this point I have given up hope for an internal solution. Some external event will hold our salvation or damnation.
More apropos of prior post: the dollar, having fallen in the past few months, accounts for a significant part of the break-in-slope on the trade picture. Export prices up 0.8% m-o-m? Import prices up 0.2%? Only in dollar terms!
we will not monetize (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 7/10/2009 - 9:15 am
the best part comes when you go to buy your next GM
Buy? Only nominally. I imagine the tax credit for buying one will swiftly rise until it nearly covers the purchase price. It will work because our trade partners can't figure out how to get rid of us and never shall, no matter how much we impose on them.
And remember, if we didn't pursue these policies, the unspecified alternatives would be MUCH MUCH WORSE. Flying spaghetti monsters would carry off your kids. If Japan hadn't said "yes" to the lost two decades, they'd have had cannibalism.
QED. Keynesian stimulus spending is never wrong, and if it is, it's because you just didn't do it enough.
Chrysler has been out of BK for about a month and they don't seem to be tearing up the marketplace. I don't know if GM will be successful any time soon, even without their debt burden.
They left retiree health care with the bad GM. Who is going to pay for those liabilities? Look in the mirror.
I'm about halfwy through William Gibson's "Spook Country," - the timeline of his novels seem to be converging on the present day...
William Gibson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
viz the late period references
How do you say "green shoots" in Mandarin and Cantonese?
China’s Exports Slide for Eighth Month as Import Decline Slows
July 10 (Bloomberg) -- China’s exports fell for an eighth month as the global recession cut demand, highlighting the economy’s dependence on stimulus spending to revive growth.
Overseas sales slid 21.4 percent in June from a year earlier, the customs bureau said today on its Web site, after a record 26.4 percent drop in May.
Imports fell a less-than-estimated 13.2 percent, the smallest decline in eight months, signaling that the worst may almost be over for the nation’s trade. China, the world’s second-biggest exporter, has stalled gains by the yuan against the dollar and increased export-tax rebates as the government’s 4 trillion yuan ($585 billion) stimulus package drives an economic recovery.
“There’s light at the end of the tunnel, given that imports are a leading indicator for exports in China,” said Sun Mingchun, chief China economist at Nomura Holdings Inc. in Hong Kong. “The worst for exports will be over soon.”
China’s Exports Slide for Eighth Month as Import Decline Slows - Bloomberg.com
I sure would hate to hold the "Old GM' debt.
@energyecon,
I love W. Gibson, haven't read Spook Country yet. In one of the recent books, he wrote in the forward that reality was getting so distorted that it made more sense for him to start writing about what is happening now instead of speculating on near future. Plenty of current dystopia to write about.
Conferenace? An inmates source of heat?
VonBek:
Byz,
At this point I have given up hope for an internal solution. Some external event will hold our salvation or damnation.
Oh, we're going to crash this puppy into a wall at full speed. There's no way they're ever going to be able to spend substantially less on stimulus than they are spending now, because every time they try to and there's the most minuscule economic downturn, parallels will be drawn with defense spending and 9/11 (or something -- it helps that the people doing the drawing start at the destination and don't care if what they're saying is factually correct) and we'll have to go back to mega-spending to "prevent an economic 9/11" or whatever the rhetoric of the day is.
You can see it already with people starting to draw parallels with 1937. Krug and all the other professional gasbags will make sure they're not publicly seen to make a wrong call in calling for fiscal discipline too early by condemning anyone who mentions the concept of fiscal discipline as a libertarian jihadist with no concept of reality, and then saying their cause was just, their intentions were pure and whocoodanode when the dollar crisis comes.
That's just the nature of US domestic politics at this time. Anybody who brings up the idea of finite resources or careful policy is an America-hater -- either that we can't kill everyone who disagrees with us and jam our fist down the throat of every country in the world simultaneously, or that we can't spend however much money the most professionally breathless activist says is needed to achieve whatever the social goal du jour is -- because the thing the Mayans absolutely do not want to hear is that their agricultural system and population explosion is totally unsustainable.
Scanning headlines again this morning....everyone is still trying to sell optimism. Liked the "we're on the cusp of stabilization"... It is like the stereotypical family vacation. 'Are we there yet?'
But will they be profitable... Ever?
Energyecon,
Any idea if / when we'll see this quarter's rollover on the national debt chart? Is there a release day for the data in it, or is it energyecon time-constrained and I should shut up?
Byz,
"because the thing the Mayans absolutely do not want to hear is that their agricultural system and population explosion is totally unsustainable."
Bingo, that is the key. Again, we are seeing 'over-leverage' in every aspect of American life. And I agree with 'crashing into the wall at full speed'. Hell The Starship Enterprise is at warp 9.9...Either we blow up or go back in time....not seeing much hope of escaping the massive singularity that is dragging us down.
LOL!
More of the latter but thanks for the reminder - I will get that knocked out this weekend - data should be out already.
On my block about half the houses have been lived in by the same people for over 12 years. Out of 20 houses we have had 3 foreclosures. The last one the bank dumped at 100k below anyrhing else selling like it.
My neighbor at the end has lived there over 20 years. She is in her late 50's and worked at a bank for years processing mortgage paperwork. Her daughter lives with her and she has 2 kids.
I saw her out last evening and brought her some tomatos. We got to talking and she told me she had been unemployed for awhile. Her a/c had died and her garage door had broke. Then she told me her daughter had been let go last week. This was mixed in with the rest of the conversation.
This was a woman who always presented her self with confidence. It is gone. This is a woman who is scared, very scared. It reminded me a lot of Bob Dobbs story. She had perfect hair, lives in a good area, has an okay car, and it is only a matter of time before they go over the financial edge.
......I didn't think Consumer Sentiment would be a winner today. Even below consensus ranges 64.6 - figures with retail in the toilet
I'm currently getting my BFF drinks out of the way early. Gotta love a country where beer is cheaper than bottled water.
I still don't understand how penske bought saturn but not their hitech factory. He couldve started acraft car industry buildin cars on contract.
nova,
excellent post.
Reminds me of a song:
"the weavers live up the street from me
the crackheads, they live down the street from me
the tall grass makes it hard to see
beyond my property
hey man, this is criminal,
this hard line symmetry of people and pets"
Yeah, maybe the new GM won't work, or maybe it will.
Don't you think the outcome so far of having GM auto workers working again is better than having GM bond holders liquidating GM to get their money back and GM autoworkers on the dole and not on the job or with any immediate prospects of working?
After the money we have given banksters... never mind, don't get me started..
My daughter is in summer school. Like her father, she is "math challenged." The school provides lunch for a fee. The problem is they are bringing it in from fast food places and charging for it. So lunch is going to cost her about $5.
Fine, she can bring one. What makes it interesting is that a lot of the kids in summer school were also the ones getting almost free lunches. They can't afford it and I guess there is nothing at home. So they don't eat.
My cooworker was telling me this morning about how theu converted the garage into a room for her Mom. Why? Because her sister and kids were homeless and Mom had a paid for house. Sis gets the house and Mom moves in with them.
The security guards as I came in were talking about how "its all about money" and how there is none out there.
It better be a cusp and turn around soon
nova,
I think that financial edge of the cliff is getting closer for a lot of people. Wife and I were talking about all the heated domestic disputes we are seeing in public over 'money' issues. More correctly, spending money issues. Nerves are frayed, and tempers are short. Best ones are dad's explaining to teenage daughters that cellphones aren't a necessity. Lots of families moving to pre-paid cells. Lots of teens unhappy.
The Mrs two youngest would LITERALLY be devastated without a mobile phone. It would be like them dropping off the face of the world.
Nova....the school food program is a crime. Used to be the schools PREPARED lunches - not ordered in from junk food establishments. Not to mention, coke machines in school? You gotta be kidding. How about white milk and REAL juice - not the kind "made from real fruit flavors"!
Many more are feeling it - and worried. When our local Fox News channel (night before last) spent more time on the bad economy than Hollywood, I even was shocked.
Free School lunch programs are another way to free up money for abusive parents to buy crap.
Is the Credit Bureau now going to tell the world that GM is a credit scumbag, like they do to a person that has his house foreclosed on by an evil bank?
What a wonderful precedent and fine example to private individuals who may want to shuck of some bothersome old debts and obligations!
Ruthless defaults and Reno-style BKs... corporate America at its finest.
Only question that matters: when can I short the stock?
What's the point of bankruptcy if they exit it with 48 billion of debt; Do they intend to file for new chapter 11 next year?