"Seven million people are collecting unemployment benefits, and another eight million are unemployed and collecting nothing! There are 38 million part-time or self employed workers, and 2.4 million people in jail (1 in 100 adults). 51 million are collecting Social Security benefits, 12 million are on Social Security Disability, and 34 million are on food stamps."
Off-topic in a direct sense, but it's after hours. From an informed friend:
" It is curious to me that there have been so many swine flu cases in the UK. It isn't winter there, as it is in the southern hemisphere - where you would expect to see an increased number.
If a vaccine isn't developed for H1N1 soon, it's going to be a very bad winter for us. "
His next movie. Already in shooting is called Condos: A Date from Hell
Moore's look at the consequences of big business will be called "Capitalism: A Love Story." The documentary is due in theaters Oct. 2.
Distributor Overture Films said "Capitalism" examines the disastrous effects of corporate profiteering.
"It will be the perfect date movie," Moore said. "It's got it all — lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated every day. It's a forbidden love, one that dare not speak its name. Heck, let's just say it: It's capitalism."
The owners are responsible for the association debts in both a practical and a legal sense. From a practical perspective, condos are completely dependent on their associations, and there is no way a condo can have any significant value unless the association is functioning and able to do things like repair the roof or the elevator.
In all cases I am aware of, the association has the power to lien the condos for regular fees plus whatever additional assessments are necessary.
Sounds like roofers, painters, landscapers and other contractors are not going to be anxious to get those jobs anymore. At least not without getting paid up front.
Leasing a pool? I didn't realize condo associations didn't own their pools outright. I also didn't know the associations themselves were in that much debt. I just figured the projects would be put off if the dues weren't there.
What a nightmare for the owners who do pay their fees.
pavel,
The last thing I read on the UK, is that the large numbers of obese people in Britain are at the root of the problem. If that's the case, why isn't it spreading more in the US? I read about Argentina being in bad shape today too. I don't know what to think at this point. It is worse than we know, but is it as bad as we fear? This winter will tell.
This is an early indicator of what is going to happen to municipalities who engineered the same leaseback type arrangements. In the cases like Oxnard it will prove interesting when they default on their sale and leaseback of the city streets. Go long K-Rails and cyclone fence.
Would not the remaining owners walk when this happens? Why pay on a mortgage that is probably underwater when your pool is green and the flat screen from in the gym is broken?
The owners are responsible for the association debts in both a practical and a legal sense. From a practical perspective, condos are completely dependent on their associations, and there is no way a condo can have any significant value unless the association is functioning and able to do things like repair the roof or the elevator.
In all cases I am aware of, the association has the power to lien the condos for regular fees plus whatever additional assessments are necessary.
And supposedly 'rational' people bought these things instead of just 'renting'. Good God, what insanity.
This is an early indicator of what is going to happen to municipalities who engineered the same leaseback type arrangements. In the cases like Oxnard it will prove interesting when they default on their sale and leaseback of the city streets. Go long K-Rails and cyclone fence.
Hell - not just municipalities... WHOLE STATES and their toll roads!
Seriously. They can lein and what not but if nobody pays - then what? First the bulbs in the halls go out? Who is going to service the A/C in a building like that? As well built as they usually are - why if you leave now you might be okay.
Usually big condo complexes have retail built around them because of the antcipated needs of the owners. That goes away also. Probably some decent tax projections built around the big ones also.
A letter said it is ok to park on the gravel lawn - but if you didn't rake the grave to make it look nice we would get a fine. Stupid.
Most of the HOAs I have to deal with are in fine for anything mode. They are all broke and looking for more money. i am sick of the picky, insane, stupid letters and conditions and changes they make for no reason.
All owners of properties in HOAs should vote to abandon them.
Not sure what the number is something like 50% When they hit to many foreclosures the lose their loan rating. Real ugly when you need to sell or try to buy.
The individual units are no longer salable at any price. Would you buy one for a dollar knowing you were potentially liable for any or all of the debts piling up? Their only hope is some kind of collective bankruptcy and sale of all assets and liabilities en masse. Lawyers full employment act of 2009.
Lots of newer HOA for SFR are builders way of sucking up to local politicians by dumping services on the home owners while the gov collect full property tax.
I can see this happening in some of the condo associations I know of in San Diego... too many foreclosed owners, deadbeat owners (not paying HOA), etc. It's already proving challenging to get financing in some of the condo communities because of lawsuits and underfunded HOAs.
I should clarify that the condo owners are not directly responsible for the debts of the association, in the sense that if the association bankruptcy is successful the debts will be discharged and the condo owners will not have to pay them. But the bankruptcy plan will need to explain how to pay the lawyers, the debts going forward, and whatever debts are not discharged. Condo owners will have to pay for that.
I don't know what liens are most senior - the general rule is that the earliest lien is most senior, but statutes and the condo documents may provide exceptions.
I lived in Massachusetts during the 1980s condo bust. I distinctly remember stories in the Boston Globe about the last two or three residents of a condo building having spotty electric and water service, no trash disposal, walking up to the fifth foor because the elevators were broken, being surrounded by what we now call Bandos, etc. It will be very bad and almost everyone will have no choice but to walk away.
Interestingly, if the building has any potential value as a hotel or whatever, the association documents from about 2004 onward contain interesting provisions allowing the developer/association/financier (or whoever is standing in their shoes) to "repurpose" the property and pay only fair market value to buy back the condo "owner's" interest. Leaving the owner with the excess debt but no condo.
Nova - They're still young, too afraid to come out of the pen yet. Another few months and the de-ticker machines ought to be in full swing. Too late for my husband, who was diagnosed w/Lyme last week. But the birds are so ugly they're cute. Fun to watch.
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:07 pm
Almost every dev. built since the early 90's in No. VA is HOA. Maybe every single one.
in case you needed another reason never to live in a development. Condo rape for freestanding structures! Hooray, it's the FUTURE! Mortgage AND rent AND fines!
In NYC, the condo conversion of the beautiful old Apthorp is a continuing mess. The chased out many of the long time renters, then bumbled the pricing and management. The would-be converters paid just under half a billion for the building. Now they are slashing prices on condos by 20% to sell the 25 condos necessary to legally convert from rental to condo ownership. Problem is, occupancy is below 15% so jumbo loans for the multi-million dollar places are going to be hard to get.
Interesting. I wonder if there is an opportunity to restructure these condo associations as something else or nothing at all.
For a low enough price, apartment conversions would be possible. But you would have to find a way to permanently kill off the HOA and eliminate any claims against the property. And you would have to convert the entire complex at once, not one unit at a time.
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 2:05 pm
It is too earlier for the French speakers...
Now if it had been named Casa Grande
SoCal got into some weird convoluted "ownership" arrangements during the bubble madness. Actually is is still happening:
We owe $1,400,000
Home appraised in december 2007 $1,790,000 (but we will get an updated appraisal. Comps are at 1,600,000 right now)
You Assume the 1st TD at 1,200,000 (payment $5,900)
You Assume the 2nd TD at $200,000 (payment $700)
You pay the Balance to us $175,000. (we would accept a $100,000 payment now, and $50,000 in 4 months)
That's less then 10% down, and no qualifying!!!!!
"Who pays" will be the big question for a long time.
The way these were structured, the easiest way to take control is probably to buy the mezz lender's interest, which makes you the successor to the developer. Then you have the right to buy out all the so-called owners for fair market value. Which in reality is zero, but I doubt you could get a judge to go along with that. I wouldn't do it - all you are really buying is a ticket to a decade long class action lawsuit.
I think the parking spaces were also leased, so people still paying may lose their parking spaces.
It would suck to park on the street and carry your groceries past the green slime pool, up the stairwell, and through the dark hallways, to the last condo on the left.
sm_landlord (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:15 pm
For a low enough price, apartment conversions would be possible. But you would have to find a way to permanently kill off the HOA and eliminate any claims against the property. And you would have to convert the entire complex at once, not one unit at a time.
And just think, this kind of horror is looming over however many hundreds of thousands of freestanding structures as well.
That'll kill sales inertia on bubble community #241545455, GROUSE POINTE HAVEN MEADOWBROOKE LANE AT THE LARCHES
Someone had to have made a business out of tending to the grass for all those places with too many 'E's at the end of the words. They are a short sale candidate, IMO.
I probably would not have the patience to do it personally, but an organization with enough scale to have in-house lawyers and such could probably pull it off.
Actually, if things get bad enough for the remaining "owners", enough of them might walk so that you could deal directly with the banks that hold the "owners" mortgages. Once again, that would take more scale than I have, but the right sort of organization...
I hate my condo association with a passion. I did take more than a small bit of pleasure from publicly spanking them when they tried to harass me about my DirecTV dish installation. The arrogant jackass president of the association board looked like he was going to stroke out at the board meeting when i calmly and clearly pointed out to them that the existing dish policy violated the FCC rules in about 5 different ways and that if they wanted to fight then I was more than willing to file a complaint with the FCC review board because I had no doubt that I would win (and even if I didn't, their attorney fees cold not be assessed to me). The builder's rep on the board (who was the only sane person with the power to do anything) finally managed to talk the jackass off the ledge.
Four months later, they published a revised dish policy that was taken nearly verbatim from my last letter to them on the subject. Satisfying, although I definitely should have billed them for my time.
As much as I want to be amused by the prospect of a jackal developer vs a hyena bank tearing at the carcass here, the condo owners themselves are totally and royally screwed. Maybe they were speculator/flippers, maybe not.
The person that said these units are totally and utterly worthless is correct. They have zero value except to the lawyers that will get to argue over whether the bank takes possession or the HOA does.
General Electric Capital Corporation has just filed an automatic shelf registration with the SEC. This filing is for Variable Denomination Floating Rate Demand Notes, to the tune of $12,000,000,000.00.
Most CC&Rs contian a % of owners to vote for a disolustion. I would be signing up ASAP. Turn the parks, water falls and bike paths over to the city and be done with it. This is for single family asso.
For apartment type buildings, change it into a co-op. Shares in the building per occupant. Those seem to work much better. If someone doesn't pay his/her share (% of ownership) the % (sq ft) goes back to the co-op.
" Outsider (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:12 pm
Nova - They're still young, too afraid to come out of the pen yet. Another few months and the de-ticker machines ought to be in full swing. Too late for my husband, who was diagnosed w/Lyme last week. But the birds are so ugly they're cute. Fun to watch."
Sorry to hear about the hubby; I'm looking for Muscovy ducks along with my Buff Orpingtons to do that-
Do the banks pay the HOA dues when they take the property? Does the bank have to bring the dues current, at least while bank owned, when they sell the property?
Yesterday on their website, the People's Bank of China announced new Chinese bank lending for June was 1.53 trillion yuan ($224 billion), double the lending in May. The total already for the year is an astounding 7.4 trillion yuan when the target for the entire year was 5 trillion.
This means there are likely large bubbles forming in the Chinese stock market and real estate market, with the possibility for very strong price inflation down the road.
For an economy still coming out of the totalitarian grip of communism, this is not a good sign
Usually 66% and over. One I deal with is 75% and the owners are signing up now to dissolve the HOA. But they have no clue how to deed land to the city etc. it will be a waste land before it gets done.
AIG May Have Zero Value After Rescue, Citigroup Says (Update4) Bloomberg.com
By Erik Holm and Hugh Son
July 9 (Bloomberg) -- American International Group Inc., the insurer bailed out four times by the government, fell the most in nine months after Citigroup Inc. said the firm may have no value left for shareholders after repaying the U.S. AIG plunged $3.62, or 28 percent, to $9.48 at 4:15 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, the biggest drop since September 2008. The insurer has lost more than half its value after implementing a 1-for-20 reverse stock split when trading closed June 30.
I never understood the appeal of a condo (or HOA) where your investment is dependent on others.
This happened in the eighties, wait till the banks won't loan due to low owner occupancy!
That's why it used to be a risky loan for lenders if the % of builder-owned units was greater than 20%. Condo loans (when I bought a condo in '91) generally required 20% down, and often more if there were plenty of unsold units or units in arrears. I had to talk to mortgage companies and send them association finances all the time whenever an owner wanted to refi or a potential buyer had a deal pending on a unit. (This extra work is the reason I got the heck out.) Lax underwriting standards strike again.
"Most people stop paying the dues before the mortgage. If we knew how many were behind on HOA dues, we could figure out future repos."
If I ever decide to jingle mail my condo, I'll keep paying the condo dues even after i stop the mortgage payments. The mortgage stuff gets fully discharged by a foreclosure. Not so much the long arm of the association.
Banks normally do have to pay HOA fees. Which is another reason for the so-called backlog of incomplete foreclosures. State laws vary, but generally if you think of an HOA fee as being equivalent to a property tax, you will not be far off the mark.
Published: Thursday, 9 Jul 2009 | 10:49 AM ET Text Size
By: Andrew B. Busch
Yesterday on their website, the People's Bank of China announced a shocker. New Chinese bank lending for June was 1.53 trillion yuan ($224 billion), double the lending in May. The total already for the year is an astounding 7.4 trillion yuan when the target for the entire year was 5 trillion. Putting this in context, total lending this year so far has amounted to 25% of 2008 GDP. As I wrote earlier this week, Chinese regulators are getting concerned that this lending is going towards poor credit and bleeding into commodity market speculation.
I've never heard of anyone who has lived with a condo ass in any kind of stress who has signed up for a second one. Telling. In good times, they get captured by control freaks who have way too much time on their hands and a driving need to crush their opponents. In bad times, the financially ignorant rise to the surface (control) like scum from boiling sausages.
There is no good solution for a condo ass. in deep financial trouble, especially if the condos themselves are way way underwater. At it takes is a water leak somewhere that leads to mold infestations, and the whole project is in jeopardy. - the cure is very expensive and very time consuming. Systemic failure on the middling scale.
A couple of blocks from me is a 20-30 story condo (maybe 15 years old). For an entire weekend recently, a major downtown street was blocked as the Transformer of all mobile cranes (hydraulic extenders a couple hundred feet long) was used to haul roofing material to the top of the tower. My guess is hundreds of thousands of $$ to reroof that palace. Did they have set-aside funds in the association to pay for that? How many hours of argument and fist fights in the condo owners meeting did they have before they could agree 'it had to be done'?
Why are all these horrible financial things happening to us? Foreclosures are soaring, personal bankruptcies are soaring, unemployment is soaring, wages are shrinking, 401Ks are dwindling, 40 million are without health care, the middle class is shrinking.
I thought if we bailed out wall street, it would save Main St. What gives Ben?
More from a health-professional friend in the US midwest:
"We are already handling those flu cases. One of the infectious disease docs that I know well told me that he had an H1N1 case in ICU - on a vent. The cases have been coming in all summer.
"P.S. At least they are now swabbing patients in order to find out if they have swine flu - but that is only in the ER and hospital proper. Doctors on offices have not been sending in swabs. "
My condo association is quite reasonable - it's the owners who are crazy. I would never serve on such a board. I've never seen so many people complaining and whining. We have a listserv, and I would say that I may be one of two people who ever post anything that is not a complaint or attack. Every time I think that this the community with whom I will be circling the wagons, should times worsen, then I realize how unappetizing a prospect that is.
I lived in a private community and we had to do a special assessment for street paving. Some cheap squids thought the HOA should deed the streets to the city. The city refused on two counts. The streets had to be open to the public and they needed to meet current side walk, handicapped access, curb, gutter and paving standards, In reality all had to be replaced. Sounds easy but why would the city buy when they get the same property tax with out the expense!
Published: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 11:27 am
Last Modified: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 11:38 am
WASHINGTON -- The recipients of billions of dollars in IOUs being issued by California soon may have a regulated market where they could sell them. Some of the nation's largest banks say that, starting Friday, they will no longer accept the IOUs. The banks want to pressure the state to end its budget impasse, but their action could leave many businesses and families with fewer options for getting their money.
By Jon Ortiz
Published: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 7:30 am | Page 3A
The governor's latest budget proposal assumes almost 20 percent in employee wage cuts: 15 percent from the three-day furloughs that started this month, plus another 5 percent across-the-board whack.
Up until recently, I was paying $375 a month in HOA for a townhouse. But the equivalent free standing house in SV would be 2-3x, so I deemed it worth it.
As I read all these horror-stories that are apparently the rule rather than the exception, I have to thank my lucky stars that when I was a young naif and bought a condo about 8 years ago (since sold) that the HOA was managed incredibly well by a few of the owners that had lived there for years. Our dues were <$200 and they had a financial plan that literally had 2 decades of projections and included things like roof, siding, etc. Nobody ever wanted to vote these guys out because they did such a great job. Hardly anyone could ever even be troubled to show up for the annual meeting it seemed to function so well.
That being said, I would never ever buy a condo again.
I drove past a lot in a marina development last weekend, and on the For Sale sign it said:
No HOA
No Mello-Roos
I almost called the number to inquire, but then I restrained myself and decided to wait until summer is over. No point in even asking the price until the summer wishing season is past and done.
sorry if this was discussed already, but does the expected amount of CRE defaults exceed the current amount of subprime defaults?
If it does, won't we have a worse credit-market freeze up than what was caused by CDO implosion? and bank crash? Presumably these loans were also securitized and bought with leverage too, right?
On the Barney Frank proposal, If Barney Frank thought a recovery were coming he would not propose this.
Take this as a very clear sign that our govt really doesn't believe what they
are saying about a recovery.
Giving or loaning. This sounds like a big bank bailout proposal to me...another way
to pour more money into our friendly bankers.
It also sounds like a back door approach to returning to the sub prime home loan.
The only way to restart the housing market is to return to the Guaranteed Default Loan
program we just left.
It will happen.
Our HOA has no dues, barely exists. All it has to do is resurface a common driveway every four years and buy insurance for it (guess who does that); we just pass the hat. If some of them didn't ante up, the rest of us could handle it; hell, I could handle it. I painted my house bright blue, the neighbor across the street keeps a pig; the neighborhood teeenie girl has pom pom team rehearsals in the driveway. Who cares?
That said, it's still a distant second to having a stand-alone home. If the other four walked away (doubtful) and I could get the right price, I'd buy them all and make a nice compound out of the thing.
"The U.S. housing market is facing new downward pressure as holders of subprime-mortgage bonds flood the market with foreclosed homes at prices that are much lower than where many banks are willing to sell."
"In March, the mortgage-processing firm that works on behalf of a Goldman Sachs Group Inc. mortgage trust sold a house in southwest Atlanta for $17,000 -- a markdown of 87% from the original loan value. A Goldman spokeswoman declined to comment."
""We see local and regional banks having to withstand continued devaluation pressure from the disposition of mortgage-backed securitized properties," said Mason Maynard, founder of Data Intelligence."
Hmmm. Wonder why Hotlanta has all of the bank failures...
On the Barney Frank proposal, If Barney Frank thought a recovery were coming he would not propose this.
Take this as a very clear sign that our govt really doesn't believe what they
are saying about a recovery.
Exactly. Plus, if the borrower keeps paying his mortgage, then the municipalities keep getting their property taxes. It's all about avoiding price discovery (including the price of labor).
And condo fees are not rip offs. I have done a few budgets and looked at a few, and believe
it or not, you have to pay for garbage and water and lighting and repairs and INSURANCE, and
grass mowing, and you ought to be putting aside money to replace the roof and paint etc, etc.
I am a doc in Northern CA, Bay Area. I and my colleagues have taken care of 3 ICU-level H1N1 pts. All vented and sick as dogs. These are people in their 30s and 40s.
That depends on the association. There are many that have gold-plated budgets and overpay for many services. For example, hiring a lawyer to write their budget.
Max Kesier: Does the treasury secretary work for the people or does he work for the banking system on Wall Street?
Paul Craig Robert (Former US. Assistant Secretary of Treasury) He works for Goldman Sachs. Daily Kos :: Comments The Outrage Against Goldman-Sachs Builds
If you mean garbage, generally the county charges what it charges. Private waste
disposal isn't cheap. Electricity is whatever Fla P & Light charges. Water is whatever
the County water charges. Some people do mow their own grass. Big condos with
lots of grass-and there are some--need to hire somebody. Who's gonna clean the pool?
Who is gonna sweep the common areas for dirt and trash?
There are small condos, but the vast majority have way more than 10 units.
Starve the Rich, did it seem to you like there might have been a lot of H1N1 in the general Bay Area population, just not as severe and not reported? We had an outbreak of -- something -- in Santa Cruz in April and May. Put a lot of people under the weather for weeks.
"The number-two official at the Federal Reserve tells lawmakers to respect the central bank's independence and warns that injecting politics into monetary policy would only make things worse."
The budgets I prepared were the initial budget necessary to get the ok from the condo
people in Tallahassee before the units were ever sold. I look at them sometimes for
condo transactions. Errr, that is to say I used to look at them, back when there were condo
transactions.
And yep, Citizens, the Fla insurer of supposedly last resort has raised their charges
some humongous amount or other.
I haven't read Barney Frank's proposal, yet, but, sight unseen, I can tell you all that:
"I am a doc in Northern CA, Bay Area. I and my colleagues have taken care of 3 ICU-level H1N1 pts. All vented and sick as dogs. These are people in their 30s and 40s.
I'd rather not see more cases."
Thanks for the info, starve the rich. The ages of the patients give one a shock, as does the season of the year.
I wish I could say I was surprised. As a bankruptcy attorney in Boston, I've noticed some troubling trends with condo associations. Bad accounting, spotty services, under-funding. I doubt this filing will be the last of them as things continue to deteriorate.
Many California HOA's will face tremendous stress during the next few years. Lenders are not responsible for ongoing assessments until the property is foreclosed on, and this process is moving extremely slowly. Plus, the HOA has to eat the attorney's fees charged by the collection agency filing liens and sending notices. All of the past due fees, late charges, and collection expenses are extinguished on foreclosure, unless the association chooses to go after an individual who has already defaulted.
So a foreclosed condo may have 18 months of past due assessments, plus thousands in collection costs charged by the management company and collection attorneys. As the number of these hits keeps increasing, the remaining owners see their assessments rise even more rapidly, making it more likely that more underwater owners will stop making their payments.
At some point, the directors resign and move out, the management company resigns, and you are left with a carcass where the courts and attorneys try to make some sense out of a mess. Meanwhile, if maintenance and replacements aren't done, you have the possibility of things like failed roofs, structural problems, uninsurability - the list goes on.
" pavel.chichikov (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 6:23 pm
Thanks for the info, starve the rich. The ages of the patients give one a shock, as does the season of the year.
Perhaps older people have some residual immunity?"
"Serological tests showed that some adults, particularly those over 60, had antibodies effective against the new strain, Jacqueline Katz, Ph.D., of the influenza division of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, and colleagues wrote in the May 22 issue of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. "
yes, I did a bit of research and it seems 30-60 year olds are very vulnerable. no one knows why. perhaps years of additional antigenic challenge from repeated flu vaccines in older folks over time makes their immune systems quicker to react to h1n1. but that's just my thought.
in terms of epidemiology, a colleague mentioned that my county has had 100 cases with 3 documented mortalities. of course, these 100 cases are the ones that present to hospital and have positive serology. who knows how many else out there.
eventually the water gets turned off; the garbage literally piles up, the roof starts to
leak etc, etc.
I posted about the garbage building; after the garbage piled up a certain amount,
the county made everyone move out. Haven't heard what's happened yet.
This Maison Grande is the among the first ripples of the Great Condo Disaster
Tsunami.
There was another condo who didn't pay the water bill. Water got shut off and
the county made people leave; but the water got put back on and I don't know
what happened next.
I would only buy a condo in South Fla that is full of old people. They have low
or no mtges.
starve the rich (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 3:38 pm
"Serological tests showed that some adults, particularly those over 60, had antibodies effective against the new strain, Jacqueline Katz, Ph.D., of the influenza division of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, and colleagues wrote in the May 22 issue of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. "
I think it has to do with exposure to the strain responsible for the pandemic of 1957-58. It was particularly hard hitting in Massachusetts.
"yes, I did a bit of research and it seems 30-60 year olds are very vulnerable. no one knows why. perhaps years of additional antigenic challenge from repeated flu vaccines in older folks over time makes their immune systems quicker to react to h1n1. but that's just my thought."
Uh-oh! Wasn't that the same age group that got clobbered by the 1918 pandemic!
Swine flu immunity. . . low or no mtges. . . possibility of getting some SS before it
goes busto. . . . it's good to be old!! And it beats the other possibility.
I'd love to stay & chat but must drive to Merritt Island, where I have a ugh dentist
appointment tomorrow and even more uggg, an appointment with an "investment
advisor" on my mom's money. I would feel a fight coming on, but I have no
idea where to put my money much less hers. Mine continues to sit on the
sidelines.
"I think it has to do with exposure to the strain responsible for the pandemic of 1957-58. It was particularly hard hitting in Massachusetts. "
Has there been any evidence to suggest that MA is getting fewer cases of the current H1N1 variant? On might think that in an area hard hit by the precursor, it would travel as fast or saturate the populace quite so thoroughly.....or not;)
Liz is right, condo associations are not a rip off. Yeah, some overpay for services, but my guess is someone will notice, raise hell, and get a new condo board that will do a better job.
To the guy who said, "I hate my condo associations with a passion"; get in line. Everybody has strong feelings about their association. I was a director for four years until I couldn't take anymore. I really got tired of people saying, " I want this and this and this (all expensive projects) and I want you to cut assessments". I'm tired of listening to unit owners venting...l'd rather eat dirt.
Hey, I need for TIP to dip below $100 tomorrow, just long enough for me to buy some more. Does anyone know who I should call at Goldman Sachs to have them arrange that?
" sm_landlord (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 6:47 pm
Hey, I need for TIP to dip below $100 tomorrow, just long enough for me to buy some more. Does anyone know who I should call at Goldman Sachs to have them arrange that?"
I've heard that H.Paulson still has contacts there-
traderwalt (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 3:46 pm
Everybody has strong feelings about their association. I was a director for four years until I couldn't take anymore. I really got tired of people saying, " I want this and this and this (all expensive projects) and I want you to cut assessments". I'm tired of listening to unit owners venting...l'd rather eat dirt.
starve the rich,
Thanks for posting, I have been following it locally, since we have had so many cases in the DFW area. My family and I were sick just a few weeks ago and our doctor took swabs from our youngest, and said they came back negative, we just went back in for his 18month checkup, and he admitted that there was a backlog on swab testing, and we might have had it, but he is still not sure. Doesn't matter cause we got better. Our doc mentioned that this flu is different, symptoms still not pinned down, and it is changing. He is just a local pediatrician, so I don't know how much of that is just talk. Also said DFW has several people in ICU around the area too, and it is being kept hush, hush. He is really scared about school starting up again this fall, and actually advised us to bring one child in and one parent (we usually all go since the kids are still so young) for appointments to limit infection possibilities at his office. Scary stuff.
"Uh-oh! Wasn't that the same age group that got clobbered by the 1918 pandemic! "
More younger people, as I recall. An interesting analysis from the Wikipedia entry:
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much deadlier than the first. During the first wave, which began in early March, the epidemic resembled typical flu epidemics. Those at the most risk were the sick and elderly, and younger, healthier people recovered easily. But in August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone and the United States,[39] the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. This has been attributed to the circumstances of the first World War.[40] In civilian life evolutionary pressures favor a mild strain: those who get really sick stay home, but those mildly ill continue with their lives, go to work and go shopping, preferentially spreading the mild strain. In the trenches the evolutionary pressures were reversed: soldiers with a mild strain remained where they were, while the severely ill were sent on crowded trains to crowded field hospitals, spreading the deadlier virus. So the second wave began and flu quickly spread around the world again.[41] It was the same flu, in that those who recovered from first-wave infections were immune, but it was far more deadly, and the most vulnerable people were those like the soldiers in the trenches—young, otherwise healthy, adults.[42] Consequently, during modern pandemics, health officials pay attention when the virus reaches places with social upheaval, looking for deadlier strains of the virus.[41]"
josap,
I witnessed some of the cleanup from the last big bust here in Phoenix when the AFR Hoas went bust.
The city never takes any of the amenities or streets.
Instead, the properties are sold to the ultimate bottom feeding scum (of which I partake every once in a while)- tax lien investors.
A more amoral and vicious crew you have never seen (the pros, not the little old ladies who went to the stupid seminars).
You will find that someone will buy that nice park like lot that was left for doggie runs, destroy the easements on it, and then sell it to folks to build a house on from LA.
The first anyone knows that it is gone is when the cyclone fence and building permit go up.
Other tricks include selling small parcels to the adjacent owners to increase their setbacks to make bigger houses or mother inlaw apartments.
I shudder at some of the more foolish folks taking stuff for granted when their HOA dissolves. Best thing to do is make an offer for the commons, cheap, and then do a really cheap lease that allows some maintenance by the neighbors and lodge it in a nonprofit 501C corp.
But just letting stuff go and counting on "easements" is a very dangerous course.
I remember one of my former neighbors in Carefree had a wash on the lot next door in a neighborhood of multimillion dollar homes- he assumed that the lot would be empty in perpetuity because of that natural drainage- well think again. They built a house suspended over the wash- yup they have a river when it floods with a glass floor to watch.
After seeing that, I never make assumptions about a property.
"sounds like whining for more services and not wanting to pay might have other ramifications too. Could be big. Statewide even"
It's my experience that after bitching, pissing and moaning at the meeting, almost all unit owners go back to their units and pay their bills if they have the money rather than get sued by the HOA(home owner's association). Here in Illinois the HOA will sue for up to six months of assessments that will be paid by the mortgage holder, if the unit is foreclosed.
josap, the banks pay whent they sell the property- Title companies are sticklers about that.
Due to recent changes in the law, you have to pursue late payment within 3 years or they are uncollectable legally.
Buuut, they are a priority, so if you sue, your lender gets notice and pays and tacks them on to the property- or the lender loses position and the HOA sells the entire property.
If that happens, I expect changes in the law again to preserve bankster assets.
Luxury condo to Section 8 housing...long predicted, now happening in NYC...
"A $20 million pilot program designed to turn unsold condominiums and stalled residential construction sites into as many as 400 affordable housing units for moderate- and middle-income families was unveiled today by city officials.
Under the Housing Asset Renewal Program, officials will seek to wring some good out of the current building bust by working with developers and banks to bring the cost of apartments in selected projects to below market rates.
“The credit crunch has left buildings across our city empty, just waiting for someone to call them home,” said City Council Speaker Christine Quinn."
High-end gardening chain Smith & Hawken to close, 56 stores. Probably doesn't mean much except to us granola-encrusted Northern Californians. Places like S&H pretty much defined classic yuppie culture in the early '80s.
more "green shoots": Las Vegas revenue ONLY down 8.3% y-o-y.
Of course, by last May the economy was starting to crumble, but forget about that. Just wait until November's y-o-y comps, they are gonna be AWESOME: "we were just as good as last year's horrible numbers".
Of course, don't forget this, this is a revenue number only, and only represents gambling revenue, not other revenue (which might be down more) and expenses (which might be up).
"more "green shoots": Las Vegas revenue ONLY down 8.3% y-o-y."
From the linked article:
"The May win was the amount left in casino coffers after gamblers wagered $12.6 billion during the month, including $10.1 billion in slot machine bets. The balance was wagered on table games."
It looks like the whales are staying away. ISTR that the table games should be a higher percentage than that.
July 9 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. is unwilling to give CIT Group Inc. access to its Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program because the commercial lender’s credit quality is deteriorating, according to people familiar with the regulator’s thinking.
The FDIC, which has backed $274 billion in bond sales under the TLGP since Nov. 25, is concerned that guaranteeing CIT debt would put taxpayer money at risk , said the people, who declined to be identified because the application process is private.
When did that become a factor in an FDIC decision?
I actually think that the end of S&H is very telling. Although there prices were (are) a bit high, their store locations are in the heartland of the upper-middle / upper class (e.g. the top 5% to top 1% of earners). In NorCal -- Berkeley, Burlingame and Palo Alto (land of $1mm+ bungalows).
Indicative of the end of MEW and income even in the most upscale areas.
ghost, sm,
that is truly dismal news- the part that shocks me the most is this:
"The win was down during May in most major markets in the state, including the Las Vegas Strip in southern Nevada, which was off 6.4 percent.
Elsewhere in southern Nevada, Laughlin was down 15.1 percent, downtown Las Vegas declined 10.7 percent, and Mesquite was down 22.1 percent. North Las Vegas was up 2.9 percent and the Boulder Strip was up 10.3 percent.
Casino winnings in the Reno-Sparks-North Tahoe area of northern Nevada was down 8.6 percent. It was the 23rd consecutive month of declines for that area.
Elsewhere in northern Nevada, resorts on Lake Tahoe's south shore reported a 25.5 percent decrease in May compared with the same month a year earlier. Clubs in Elko County, in eastern Nevada, were down 5.7 percent."
The biggest luxury areas were down the most, and the only gains came in the stripped down poor casinos designed to wring the bottom dollar from RVers, social security players, and locals.
This still shows extreme economic distress- 17 months of declines!!! That is five months of stacked YOY declines!!!
We need Plan Z- might as well go to the end of the alphabet.
Federal law boxes the state- they can't cut costs willy nilly.
On the other hand, hope springs eternal for creative destruction in California to solve the housing foreclosure crisis: Mysterious tremors detected on San Andreas Fault
(This one is for Rob Dawg;-}
That is such a crock- the plant was scuttled because the West is now awash in surplus power.
Good news for APS though- they will be selling nice clean nuclear power to LADWP, and taking over the cheap coal power from Navajo. But hey, remember electricity is fungible. But green electricity is special.
My electric bill here in Phoenix thanks those thoughtful folks in California for the subsidy.
Dang, they are still insolvent. Dang, they want more money. Dang, how long will it take the Fed to just give it to them - March 2010 at the very latest. They are too big to fail, rught?
"Two economists with long-standing ties to the Federal Reserve warned Congress on Thursday that it would be a mistake to give the Fed broad power to supervise “systemic risk” and financial institutions that are deemed “too big to fail.”
Palo Verde, firm on-peak, spot $32.68 per megawatt up $1.12 3.55% 07/09
Cheeep. When enron was on their game this was routinely up to $70 bucks in the middle of summer, and hit over a $100 when you guys were browning out. plus we built all those merchant plants here in Arizona- can you say uneconomical with Natural Gas skyhigh- but now with $3 buck chuck - cheep, plus much less carbon tax.
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs. (For more insight, read Matt Taibbi’s article, “The Great American Bubble Machine” in Rolling Stone, page 52, July 9-23, 2009.) Want to know who’s driving the Wall Street to Washington train? Follow the money.
Tell a politician about a problem and he or she will derive a way government can fix it. Tell a Wall Streeter about a problem and he or she will derive a way to profit from it.
starve the rich,
We moved out of the Bay Area, Palo Alto, in Dec and in the hurry hurry of selling and moving I did not get my shot. I am however an old coot, 74, and so talk of residual immunity is comforting. Maybe I should just stay holed up in my mountain fastness untill this blows over?
"Liz, consider here in Boston that a triple decker is considered a condo. One floor is considered a unit. How is $200/month not a rip off?
I do understand some buildings with amenities having fees, but paying for one floor of a former single family is a joke!"----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Liz went to Merritt Island. But having been on a condo board for 4 years, I may be able to partially answer your question. The assessment covers the cost of repairing all the common areas which probably includes the boiler, roof, any parking areas, washers and dryers, keeping up common areas that may include trees, grass trimming and replacement, several kinds of insurance and janatorial services, trash collection, snow removal and probably a lot of other stuff. Once you realize how much it costs to replace a roof or an air conditioning unit, elevator, or repaving a driveway or parking lot, you will probably realize $200/ month is about right.
Back when I was thinking of buying a condo I was thinking that a really old one was the way to go.
I found a building which had stood for 80 years and still looked good, and a legal framework that had worked for so long that it didn't even have the same name as the new ones and was kind of difficult to get a mortgage for reassuring.
The pool/parking lease situation is a way for the developer to get rental income from people who think they own their homes. A bit of the best of both worlds for the developer.
Maison Grande was built in 1971, and is at the 60 block of Collins Ave. The beach is right behind the building.
From the article: "The significant drop in property values is a key factor pushing associations toward bankruptcy filings, said attorney Robert Kaye of Kaye & Bender in Fort Lauderdale. ... “
One would think that most condos in this building were bought many years ago, and now paid off: I.e., a "drop in values" (here is that word again - does he mean price) should not even matter. A lot of older people in this area, Italians from the Northeast, for example. Either, the HOA has jacked up the fees up to the sky. Or, a lot of original owners sold when prices were so high?
Whatever the case in this case, I am sure many others will follow, and I hope the banks that don't pay the HOA fees for the foreclosures will lose their properties.
Lobbyiest Ben Dover is right, the local government is under NO obligation to take over roads that aren't up to spec. The "roads" in most PUDs are, from a legal persepctive, simply common driveways. This was (and still is) an issue in the town I grew up in: Somebody built three houses next to a right of way, and puts gravel down so the buyers can drive there. Now many residents of the town would LIKE to have a road there, it would be a very convenient short cut. But neither the three residents nor the town wants to PAY to have this gravel common driveway upgraded to a paved street. There was a contre temps about snow removal, because the company that the town contracted to plow the streets was plowing this common driveway. It's unclear whether the residents were flagging down the driver and paying him personally, or paying the company seprately to also plow their "street." Either way, the town is not really an interested party, but there was alot of anger over this. And this has been going on for ~15 years with NO end in sight.
Condo fees biggest ripoff going
the joys of multifamily living
How many relatives can you fit in one condo?
"Seven million people are collecting unemployment benefits, and another eight million are unemployed and collecting nothing! There are 38 million part-time or self employed workers, and 2.4 million people in jail (1 in 100 adults). 51 million are collecting Social Security benefits, 12 million are on Social Security Disability, and 34 million are on food stamps."
Hard Times
What happens to the "owners", are they ultimately responsible for the associations debts? Is "their" condo an asset that the creditors can go after?
Hee, hee. Their "debts are overtaking their assets," which has "changed their views on bankruptcy."
Yep, that tends to happen.
Off-topic in a direct sense, but it's after hours. From an informed friend:
" It is curious to me that there have been so many swine flu cases in the UK. It isn't winter there, as it is in the southern hemisphere - where you would expect to see an increased number.
If a vaccine isn't developed for H1N1 soon, it's going to be a very bad winter for us. "
His next movie. Already in shooting is called Condos: A Date from Hell
Moore's look at the consequences of big business will be called "Capitalism: A Love Story." The documentary is due in theaters Oct. 2.
Distributor Overture Films said "Capitalism" examines the disastrous effects of corporate profiteering.
"It will be the perfect date movie," Moore said. "It's got it all — lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated every day. It's a forbidden love, one that dare not speak its name. Heck, let's just say it: It's capitalism."
The owners are responsible for the association debts in both a practical and a legal sense. From a practical perspective, condos are completely dependent on their associations, and there is no way a condo can have any significant value unless the association is functioning and able to do things like repair the roof or the elevator.
In all cases I am aware of, the association has the power to lien the condos for regular fees plus whatever additional assessments are necessary.
How does that affect their water supply, heating, electricity etc..
Sounds like roofers, painters, landscapers and other contractors are not going to be anxious to get those jobs anymore. At least not without getting paid up front.
Leasing a pool? I didn't realize condo associations didn't own their pools outright. I also didn't know the associations themselves were in that much debt. I just figured the projects would be put off if the dues weren't there.
What a nightmare for the owners who do pay their fees.
pavel,
The last thing I read on the UK, is that the large numbers of obese people in Britain are at the root of the problem. If that's the case, why isn't it spreading more in the US? I read about Argentina being in bad shape today too. I don't know what to think at this point. It is worse than we know, but is it as bad as we fear? This winter will tell.
I wonder how that plays out? Do the lobby, elevators and pool get sold at auction?
Must be a lot of candidates for condo board seats...
Thanks, albrt -- who's lien has priority, the bank or the assn?
Hopefully, they got the work done successfully, whatever it was that they spent the $1MM+ on.
It's sort of a "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition.
If so, well done!
albrt,
Thanks for summation. Sounds like the South Florida condo market aught to recover about 2030 or so.
Of course, pity the contractors, etc. who were on the losing side.
This is an early indicator of what is going to happen to municipalities who engineered the same leaseback type arrangements. In the cases like Oxnard it will prove interesting when they default on their sale and leaseback of the city streets. Go long K-Rails and cyclone fence.
Would not the remaining owners walk when this happens? Why pay on a mortgage that is probably underwater when your pool is green and the flat screen from in the gym is broken?
The owners are responsible for the association debts in both a practical and a legal sense. From a practical perspective, condos are completely dependent on their associations, and there is no way a condo can have any significant value unless the association is functioning and able to do things like repair the roof or the elevator.
In all cases I am aware of, the association has the power to lien the condos for regular fees plus whatever additional assessments are necessary.
And supposedly 'rational' people bought these things instead of just 'renting'. Good God, what insanity.
I never understood the appeal of a condo (or HOA) where your investment is dependent on others.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Walkaway en masse
This is an early indicator of what is going to happen to municipalities who engineered the same leaseback type arrangements. In the cases like Oxnard it will prove interesting when they default on their sale and leaseback of the city streets. Go long K-Rails and cyclone fence.
Hell - not just municipalities... WHOLE STATES and their toll roads!
Seriously. They can lein and what not but if nobody pays - then what? First the bulbs in the halls go out? Who is going to service the A/C in a building like that? As well built as they usually are - why if you leave now you might be okay.
Usually big condo complexes have retail built around them because of the antcipated needs of the owners. That goes away also. Probably some decent tax projections built around the big ones also.
Nobody else laughed at "Maison Grande" translating as "The Big House?"
This happened in the eighties, wait till the banks won't loan due to low owner occupancy! Cash is king!
Do not gov programs require a set amount of owner occupied?
As a property manager I HATE HOAs.
A letter said it is ok to park on the gravel lawn - but if you didn't rake the grave to make it look nice we would get a fine. Stupid.
Most of the HOAs I have to deal with are in fine for anything mode. They are all broke and looking for more money. i am sick of the picky, insane, stupid letters and conditions and changes they make for no reason.
All owners of properties in HOAs should vote to abandon them.
Dawg,
It is too earlier for the French speakers...
Now if it had been named Casa Grande
Allot of new developments of single family homes have HOAs now. Not just condos anymore.
They built parks and water falls and entry ways and stuff and more stuff. They can't afford to maintain any of it now.
Not sure what the number is something like 50% When they hit to many foreclosures the lose their loan rating. Real ugly when you need to sell or try to buy.
Almost every dev. built since the early 90's in No. VA is HOA. Maybe every single one.
The individual units are no longer salable at any price. Would you buy one for a dollar knowing you were potentially liable for any or all of the debts piling up? Their only hope is some kind of collective bankruptcy and sale of all assets and liabilities en masse. Lawyers full employment act of 2009.
Nova, I now have a guinea addiction, thank you very much.
No self-respecting HOA would ever accept me now.
Oustside - Are they working?!
Lots of newer HOA for SFR are builders way of sucking up to local politicians by dumping services on the home owners while the gov collect full property tax.
I can see this happening in some of the condo associations I know of in San Diego... too many foreclosed owners, deadbeat owners (not paying HOA), etc. It's already proving challenging to get financing in some of the condo communities because of lawsuits and underfunded HOAs.
I should clarify that the condo owners are not directly responsible for the debts of the association, in the sense that if the association bankruptcy is successful the debts will be discharged and the condo owners will not have to pay them. But the bankruptcy plan will need to explain how to pay the lawyers, the debts going forward, and whatever debts are not discharged. Condo owners will have to pay for that.
I don't know what liens are most senior - the general rule is that the earliest lien is most senior, but statutes and the condo documents may provide exceptions.
I lived in Massachusetts during the 1980s condo bust. I distinctly remember stories in the Boston Globe about the last two or three residents of a condo building having spotty electric and water service, no trash disposal, walking up to the fifth foor because the elevators were broken, being surrounded by what we now call Bandos, etc. It will be very bad and almost everyone will have no choice but to walk away.
Interestingly, if the building has any potential value as a hotel or whatever, the association documents from about 2004 onward contain interesting provisions allowing the developer/association/financier (or whoever is standing in their shoes) to "repurpose" the property and pay only fair market value to buy back the condo "owner's" interest. Leaving the owner with the excess debt but no condo.
Nova - They're still young, too afraid to come out of the pen yet. Another few months and the de-ticker machines ought to be in full swing. Too late for my husband, who was diagnosed w/Lyme last week. But the birds are so ugly they're cute. Fun to watch.
I used to be on the board of a SFR HOA...thankfully I sold and moved. I'd never go near another one. What a nightmare.
Damn. Sorry about the husband. They are ugly and supposedly loud. I am try to get my FIL and SIL to get them. Ticks are everywhere in abundance here.
"Condo fees biggest ripoff going "
I'd have to go with Vegas timeshares as a tad bigger.
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:07 pm
Almost every dev. built since the early 90's in No. VA is HOA. Maybe every single one.
in case you needed another reason never to live in a development. Condo rape for freestanding structures! Hooray, it's the FUTURE! Mortgage AND rent AND fines!
In NYC, the condo conversion of the beautiful old Apthorp is a continuing mess. The chased out many of the long time renters, then bumbled the pricing and management. The would-be converters paid just under half a billion for the building. Now they are slashing prices on condos by 20% to sell the 25 condos necessary to legally convert from rental to condo ownership. Problem is, occupancy is below 15% so jumbo loans for the multi-million dollar places are going to be hard to get.
Apthorp – full coverage on Curbed NY
Interesting. I wonder if there is an opportunity to restructure these condo associations as something else or nothing at all.
For a low enough price, apartment conversions would be possible. But you would have to find a way to permanently kill off the HOA and eliminate any claims against the property. And you would have to convert the entire complex at once, not one unit at a time.
nova (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 2:05 pm
It is too earlier for the French speakers...
Now if it had been named Casa Grande
SoCal got into some weird convoluted "ownership" arrangements during the bubble madness. Actually is is still happening:
We owe $1,400,000
Home appraised in december 2007 $1,790,000 (but we will get an updated appraisal. Comps are at 1,600,000 right now)
You Assume the 1st TD at 1,200,000 (payment $5,900)
You Assume the 2nd TD at $200,000 (payment $700)
You pay the Balance to us $175,000. (we would accept a $100,000 payment now, and $50,000 in 4 months)
That's less then 10% down, and no qualifying!!!!!
"Who pays" will be the big question for a long time.
sm-landlord
The way these were structured, the easiest way to take control is probably to buy the mezz lender's interest, which makes you the successor to the developer. Then you have the right to buy out all the so-called owners for fair market value. Which in reality is zero, but I doubt you could get a judge to go along with that. I wouldn't do it - all you are really buying is a ticket to a decade long class action lawsuit.
I think the parking spaces were also leased, so people still paying may lose their parking spaces.
It would suck to park on the street and carry your groceries past the green slime pool, up the stairwell, and through the dark hallways, to the last condo on the left.
We have become Japan without the politeness or healthy eating habits.
sm_landlord (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:15 pm
For a low enough price, apartment conversions would be possible. But you would have to find a way to permanently kill off the HOA and eliminate any claims against the property. And you would have to convert the entire complex at once, not one unit at a time.
And just think, this kind of horror is looming over however many hundreds of thousands of freestanding structures as well.
That'll kill sales inertia on bubble community #241545455, GROUSE POINTE HAVEN MEADOWBROOKE LANE AT THE LARCHES
Someone had to have made a business out of tending to the grass for all those places with too many 'E's at the end of the words. They are a short sale candidate, IMO.
We have become Japan without the politeness or healthy eating habits.
Or savings, or positive trade balance.
We have become Japan without the politeness or healthy eating habits.
And Disney is our animator.... uggg, we are so screwed.
albrt,
I probably would not have the patience to do it personally, but an organization with enough scale to have in-house lawyers and such could probably pull it off.
Actually, if things get bad enough for the remaining "owners", enough of them might walk so that you could deal directly with the banks that hold the "owners" mortgages. Once again, that would take more scale than I have, but the right sort of organization...
Comrade Coinz (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 2:20 pm
We have become Japan without the politeness or healthy eating habits.
Or savings, or positive trade balance.
Or 2 billion fanatical enemies. Or 4 billion socio/politico/economic competitors rooting for the lead dog to falter.
I hate my condo association with a passion. I did take more than a small bit of pleasure from publicly spanking them when they tried to harass me about my DirecTV dish installation. The arrogant jackass president of the association board looked like he was going to stroke out at the board meeting when i calmly and clearly pointed out to them that the existing dish policy violated the FCC rules in about 5 different ways and that if they wanted to fight then I was more than willing to file a complaint with the FCC review board because I had no doubt that I would win (and even if I didn't, their attorney fees cold not be assessed to me). The builder's rep on the board (who was the only sane person with the power to do anything) finally managed to talk the jackass off the ledge.
Four months later, they published a revised dish policy that was taken nearly verbatim from my last letter to them on the subject. Satisfying, although I definitely should have billed them for my time.
As much as I want to be amused by the prospect of a jackal developer vs a hyena bank tearing at the carcass here, the condo owners themselves are totally and royally screwed. Maybe they were speculator/flippers, maybe not.
The person that said these units are totally and utterly worthless is correct. They have zero value except to the lawyers that will get to argue over whether the bank takes possession or the HOA does.
Need cash?
General Electric Capital Corporation has just filed an automatic shelf registration with the SEC. This filing is for Variable Denomination Floating Rate Demand Notes, to the tune of $12,000,000,000.00.
Link
Perhaps they can just dedicate the common areas as open space and deed it to the municipality. Then it is their responsibility.
Most CC&Rs contian a % of owners to vote for a disolustion. I would be signing up ASAP. Turn the parks, water falls and bike paths over to the city and be done with it. This is for single family asso.
For apartment type buildings, change it into a co-op. Shares in the building per occupant. Those seem to work much better. If someone doesn't pay his/her share (% of ownership) the % (sq ft) goes back to the co-op.
"Edna. Will you open the window? I've got to defecate."
" Outsider (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 5:12 pm
Nova - They're still young, too afraid to come out of the pen yet. Another few months and the de-ticker machines ought to be in full swing. Too late for my husband, who was diagnosed w/Lyme last week. But the birds are so ugly they're cute. Fun to watch."
Sorry to hear about the hubby; I'm looking for Muscovy ducks along with my Buff Orpingtons to do that-
Is anyone else having trouble ordering the TantaWear? The email was returned "mailbox unavailable".
GE's total notes would be 24 Bil.
That is allot of something, problems maybe?
The Condomnation Association.
you think this is bad - try adding in a TIC shared mortgage like in SF on top of it...
Images of vast waste lands of abandond properties in HOA ruled areas.
Most people stop paying the dues before the mortgage. If we knew how many were behind on HOA dues, we could figure out future repos.
What is a typical % of owners that can dissolve an HOA?
Do the banks pay the HOA dues when they take the property? Does the bank have to bring the dues current, at least while bank owned, when they sell the property?
Aggressive Chinese Money Printing
Yesterday on their website, the People's Bank of China announced new Chinese bank lending for June was 1.53 trillion yuan ($224 billion), double the lending in May. The total already for the year is an astounding 7.4 trillion yuan when the target for the entire year was 5 trillion.
This means there are likely large bubbles forming in the Chinese stock market and real estate market, with the possibility for very strong price inflation down the road.
For an economy still coming out of the totalitarian grip of communism, this is not a good sign
Usually 66% and over. One I deal with is 75% and the owners are signing up now to dissolve the HOA. But they have no clue how to deed land to the city etc. it will be a waste land before it gets done.
Who owns AIG?
Did it ever have value?
AIG May Have Zero Value After Rescue, Citigroup Says (Update4)
Bloomberg.com
By Erik Holm and Hugh Son
July 9 (Bloomberg) -- American International Group Inc., the insurer bailed out four times by the government, fell the most in nine months after Citigroup Inc. said the firm may have no value left for shareholders after repaying the U.S. AIG plunged $3.62, or 28 percent, to $9.48 at 4:15 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, the biggest drop since September 2008. The insurer has lost more than half its value after implementing a 1-for-20 reverse stock split when trading closed June 30.
I never understood the appeal of a condo (or HOA) where your investment is dependent on others.
This happened in the eighties, wait till the banks won't loan due to low owner occupancy!
That's why it used to be a risky loan for lenders if the % of builder-owned units was greater than 20%. Condo loans (when I bought a condo in '91) generally required 20% down, and often more if there were plenty of unsold units or units in arrears. I had to talk to mortgage companies and send them association finances all the time whenever an owner wanted to refi or a potential buyer had a deal pending on a unit. (This extra work is the reason I got the heck out.) Lax underwriting standards strike again.
"Most people stop paying the dues before the mortgage. If we knew how many were behind on HOA dues, we could figure out future repos."
If I ever decide to jingle mail my condo, I'll keep paying the condo dues even after i stop the mortgage payments. The mortgage stuff gets fully discharged by a foreclosure. Not so much the long arm of the association.
"Did it ever have value?"
of course it has value - as a sieve to move tens of billions of dollars from taxpayers to GS
Banks normally do have to pay HOA fees. Which is another reason for the so-called backlog of incomplete foreclosures. State laws vary, but generally if you think of an HOA fee as being equivalent to a property tax, you will not be far off the mark.
I am surprised that you are surprised.
Busch: Chinese Bank Announces Bombshell
Busch: Chinese Bank Announces Bombshell - CNBC
Published: Thursday, 9 Jul 2009 | 10:49 AM ET Text Size
By: Andrew B. Busch
Yesterday on their website, the People's Bank of China announced a shocker. New Chinese bank lending for June was 1.53 trillion yuan ($224 billion), double the lending in May. The total already for the year is an astounding 7.4 trillion yuan when the target for the entire year was 5 trillion. Putting this in context, total lending this year so far has amounted to 25% of 2008 GDP. As I wrote earlier this week, Chinese regulators are getting concerned that this lending is going towards poor credit and bleeding into commodity market speculation.
What happens in the NBA if the players stop paying their dues? Could it be converted into rental teams?
I've never heard of anyone who has lived with a condo ass in any kind of stress who has signed up for a second one. Telling. In good times, they get captured by control freaks who have way too much time on their hands and a driving need to crush their opponents. In bad times, the financially ignorant rise to the surface (control) like scum from boiling sausages.
There is no good solution for a condo ass. in deep financial trouble, especially if the condos themselves are way way underwater. At it takes is a water leak somewhere that leads to mold infestations, and the whole project is in jeopardy. - the cure is very expensive and very time consuming. Systemic failure on the middling scale.
A couple of blocks from me is a 20-30 story condo (maybe 15 years old). For an entire weekend recently, a major downtown street was blocked as the Transformer of all mobile cranes (hydraulic extenders a couple hundred feet long) was used to haul roofing material to the top of the tower. My guess is hundreds of thousands of $$ to reroof that palace. Did they have set-aside funds in the association to pay for that? How many hours of argument and fist fights in the condo owners meeting did they have before they could agree 'it had to be done'?
Why are all these horrible financial things happening to us? Foreclosures are soaring, personal bankruptcies are soaring, unemployment is soaring, wages are shrinking, 401Ks are dwindling, 40 million are without health care, the middle class is shrinking.
I thought if we bailed out wall street, it would save Main St. What gives Ben?
That AIG sham makes me want to behave very badly. GRRRRRR!
Just wait until Tuesday when GS reports. You might see me on the news. GRRRRR!
Vonbek777,
More from a health-professional friend in the US midwest:
"We are already handling those flu cases. One of the infectious disease docs that I know well told me that he had an H1N1 case in ICU - on a vent. The cases have been coming in all summer.
"P.S. At least they are now swabbing patients in order to find out if they have swine flu - but that is only in the ER and hospital proper. Doctors on offices have not been sending in swabs. "
I associate the word "trouble" with condo associations.
RBC sues former Calgary-area employee for inflating real estate values
Story - Business - Calgary Herald
Frank proposes home loan plan for jobless ( Hahahahahahahahahah! )
Frank proposes home loan plan for jobless - The Boston Globe
Conjure.. is that you?
//That AIG sham makes me want to behave very badly. GRRRRRR!//
My condo association is quite reasonable - it's the owners who are crazy. I would never serve on such a board. I've never seen so many people complaining and whining. We have a listserv, and I would say that I may be one of two people who ever post anything that is not a complaint or attack. Every time I think that this the community with whom I will be circling the wagons, should times worsen, then I realize how unappetizing a prospect that is.
Hey, I know that city very well. It was absolute madness from 2005-late 2008. People are still waiting for the second coming..
//RBC sues former Calgary-area employee for inflating real estate values//
I lived in a private community and we had to do a special assessment for street paving. Some cheap squids thought the HOA should deed the streets to the city. The city refused on two counts. The streets had to be open to the public and they needed to meet current side walk, handicapped access, curb, gutter and paving standards, In reality all had to be replaced. Sounds easy but why would the city buy when they get the same property tax with out the expense!
WTF?
SEC to call for Calif. IOUs treated as securities
404 - Not Found - sacbee.com
Published: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 11:27 am
Last Modified: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 11:38 am
WASHINGTON -- The recipients of billions of dollars in IOUs being issued by California soon may have a regulated market where they could sell them. Some of the nation's largest banks say that, starting Friday, they will no longer accept the IOUs. The banks want to pressure the state to end its budget impasse, but their action could leave many businesses and families with fewer options for getting their money.
Should a Bando living in a condo be called a Cando? Just wondering.
"SEC to call for Calif. IOUs treated as securities"
Save your confederate money, boys, the South shall rise again.
This is becoming more interesting!
The State Worker: Schwarzenegger plans 20% pay cuts
404 - Not Found - sacbee.com
By Jon Ortiz
Published: Thursday, Jul. 9, 2009 - 7:30 am | Page 3A
The governor's latest budget proposal assumes almost 20 percent in employee wage cuts: 15 percent from the three-day furloughs that started this month, plus another 5 percent across-the-board whack.
Up until recently, I was paying $375 a month in HOA for a townhouse. But the equivalent free standing house in SV would be 2-3x, so I deemed it worth it.
Why isn't it called a valleyhouse?
As I read all these horror-stories that are apparently the rule rather than the exception, I have to thank my lucky stars that when I was a young naif and bought a condo about 8 years ago (since sold) that the HOA was managed incredibly well by a few of the owners that had lived there for years. Our dues were <$200 and they had a financial plan that literally had 2 decades of projections and included things like roof, siding, etc. Nobody ever wanted to vote these guys out because they did such a great job. Hardly anyone could ever even be troubled to show up for the annual meeting it seemed to function so well.
That being said, I would never ever buy a condo again.
My take is if they plan on cutting 20% they better start with mortgage right downs...no one is going to be able to afford to live there.
I drove past a lot in a marina development last weekend, and on the For Sale sign it said:
No HOA
No Mello-Roos
I almost called the number to inquire, but then I restrained myself and decided to wait until summer is over. No point in even asking the price until the summer wishing season is past and done.
sorry if this was discussed already, but does the expected amount of CRE defaults exceed the current amount of subprime defaults?
If it does, won't we have a worse credit-market freeze up than what was caused by CDO implosion? and bank crash? Presumably these loans were also securitized and bought with leverage too, right?
thanks
But ever increasing housing prices are the basis of our current economic system.
//..no one is going to be able to afford to live there.//
On the Barney Frank proposal, If Barney Frank thought a recovery were coming he would not propose this.
Take this as a very clear sign that our govt really doesn't believe what they
are saying about a recovery.
Giving or loaning. This sounds like a big bank bailout proposal to me...another way
to pour more money into our friendly bankers.
It also sounds like a back door approach to returning to the sub prime home loan.
The only way to restart the housing market is to return to the Guaranteed Default Loan
program we just left.
It will happen.
What did I tell you all?
I don't know if this was one of those big towers or not, but they will go 10 or 20 cents
on the dollar, or become welfare housing.
Our HOA has no dues, barely exists. All it has to do is resurface a common driveway every four years and buy insurance for it (guess who does that); we just pass the hat. If some of them didn't ante up, the rest of us could handle it; hell, I could handle it. I painted my house bright blue, the neighbor across the street keeps a pig; the neighborhood teeenie girl has pom pom team rehearsals in the driveway. Who cares?
That said, it's still a distant second to having a stand-alone home. If the other four walked away (doubtful) and I could get the right price, I'd buy them all and make a nice compound out of the thing.
Just in case someone hasn't alreaady posted this:
Subprime Resurfaces as Housing-Market Woe
"The U.S. housing market is facing new downward pressure as holders of subprime-mortgage bonds flood the market with foreclosed homes at prices that are much lower than where many banks are willing to sell."
"In March, the mortgage-processing firm that works on behalf of a Goldman Sachs Group Inc. mortgage trust sold a house in southwest Atlanta for $17,000 -- a markdown of 87% from the original loan value. A Goldman spokeswoman declined to comment."
""We see local and regional banks having to withstand continued devaluation pressure from the disposition of mortgage-backed securitized properties," said Mason Maynard, founder of Data Intelligence."
Hmmm. Wonder why Hotlanta has all of the bank failures...
The good news about CRE is it is not overbuilt, so nothing to worry about there.
the neighborhood teeenie girl has pom pom team rehearsals in the driveway.
Hell, that's gotta be driving values up.
On the Barney Frank proposal, If Barney Frank thought a recovery were coming he would not propose this.
Take this as a very clear sign that our govt really doesn't believe what they
are saying about a recovery.
Exactly. Plus, if the borrower keeps paying his mortgage, then the municipalities keep getting their property taxes. It's all about avoiding price discovery (including the price of labor).
And condo fees are not rip offs. I have done a few budgets and looked at a few, and believe
it or not, you have to pay for garbage and water and lighting and repairs and INSURANCE, and
grass mowing, and you ought to be putting aside money to replace the roof and paint etc, etc.
LLiz, do you think that condo admins are good at negotiating those fees?
Mow the grass yourself.
What fees?
Pavel,
I am a doc in Northern CA, Bay Area. I and my colleagues have taken care of 3 ICU-level H1N1 pts. All vented and sick as dogs. These are people in their 30s and 40s.
I'd rather not see more cases.
Hurricane Insurance on Florida condos is gonna make them wish they were paying earthquake coverage on a glass shop in San Andreas, California.
"And condo fees are not rip offs."
That depends on the association. There are many that have gold-plated budgets and overpay for many services. For example, hiring a lawyer to write their budget.
Max Kesier: Does the treasury secretary work for the people or does he work for the banking system on Wall Street?
Paul Craig Robert (Former US. Assistant Secretary of Treasury) He works for Goldman Sachs.
Daily Kos :: Comments The Outrage Against Goldman-Sachs Builds
Wow!
"And condo fees are not rip offs."
if money gets tight, a house owner can do many repairs him/herself.
I don't think you could get all the condo tenants together and redo the roof...
If you mean garbage, generally the county charges what it charges. Private waste
disposal isn't cheap. Electricity is whatever Fla P & Light charges. Water is whatever
the County water charges. Some people do mow their own grass. Big condos with
lots of grass-and there are some--need to hire somebody. Who's gonna clean the pool?
Who is gonna sweep the common areas for dirt and trash?
There are small condos, but the vast majority have way more than 10 units.
Mow the grass yourself.
I did that at my condo. And the shoveling. Still got bitched at. Asked everyone who'd mow when I moved out? Got more bitching my way.
Democracy is bad enough as it is, wanting a double-dose is insanity.
Starve the Rich, did it seem to you like there might have been a lot of H1N1 in the general Bay Area population, just not as severe and not reported? We had an outbreak of -- something -- in Santa Cruz in April and May. Put a lot of people under the weather for weeks.
Fed steps up fight for independence
Fed steps up fight to protect independent status - MarketWatch
"The number-two official at the Federal Reserve tells lawmakers to respect the central bank's independence and warns that injecting politics into monetary policy would only make things worse."
"a glass shop in San Andreas, California. "
rob, you of all people should know that san andreas is nowhere near the san andreas fault...
warns that injecting politics into monetary policy would only make things worse."
Politics created the Fed.
The budgets I prepared were the initial budget necessary to get the ok from the condo
people in Tallahassee before the units were ever sold. I look at them sometimes for
condo transactions. Errr, that is to say I used to look at them, back when there were condo
transactions.
And yep, Citizens, the Fla insurer of supposedly last resort has raised their charges
some humongous amount or other.
I haven't read Barney Frank's proposal, yet, but, sight unseen, I can tell you all that:
It's toooooo laaaaaate.
Pavel,
"I am a doc in Northern CA, Bay Area. I and my colleagues have taken care of 3 ICU-level H1N1 pts. All vented and sick as dogs. These are people in their 30s and 40s.
I'd rather not see more cases."
Thanks for the info, starve the rich. The ages of the patients give one a shock, as does the season of the year.
Perhaps older people have some residual immunity?
I wish I could say I was surprised. As a bankruptcy attorney in Boston, I've noticed some troubling trends with condo associations. Bad accounting, spotty services, under-funding. I doubt this filing will be the last of them as things continue to deteriorate.
Many California HOA's will face tremendous stress during the next few years. Lenders are not responsible for ongoing assessments until the property is foreclosed on, and this process is moving extremely slowly. Plus, the HOA has to eat the attorney's fees charged by the collection agency filing liens and sending notices. All of the past due fees, late charges, and collection expenses are extinguished on foreclosure, unless the association chooses to go after an individual who has already defaulted.
So a foreclosed condo may have 18 months of past due assessments, plus thousands in collection costs charged by the management company and collection attorneys. As the number of these hits keeps increasing, the remaining owners see their assessments rise even more rapidly, making it more likely that more underwater owners will stop making their payments.
At some point, the directors resign and move out, the management company resigns, and you are left with a carcass where the courts and attorneys try to make some sense out of a mess. Meanwhile, if maintenance and replacements aren't done, you have the possibility of things like failed roofs, structural problems, uninsurability - the list goes on.
HollywoodHack (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 3:20 pm
"a glass shop in San Andreas, California. "
rob, you of all people should know that san andreas is nowhere near the san andreas fault...
Blue screen baby. We'll fix it in post production. Besides, who ever heard of Parkfield?
" pavel.chichikov (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 6:23 pm
Thanks for the info, starve the rich. The ages of the patients give one a shock, as does the season of the year.
Perhaps older people have some residual immunity?"
Medical News: Older Population Might Have Immunity to H1N1 Swine Flu - in Infectious Disease, Swine Flu from MedPage Today
"Serological tests showed that some adults, particularly those over 60, had antibodies effective against the new strain, Jacqueline Katz, Ph.D., of the influenza division of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, and colleagues wrote in the May 22 issue of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. "
shill
Thanks for the 'Fed" post ...
Seems that the bill to audit the 'Fed' has stalled in the Senate ... surprise... surprise ...
What Congress and the people seem not to know is that the 'Fed' is a privately owned and operated
corporation ... Now they do all their market operations through the New York Fed so that their actions
can be held secret under corporate privacy laws ... Of course no one but the like of Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders
and their cosigners are willing to tell people the truth of the matter ... That the Fed corpooration has a monopoly on the creation
of our birthright as Americans ... the creation of our own money ...
All the Donald Trump wannabes got to follow in his footsteps & file BK.
HooooCoooodaNode ?
"We'll fix it in post production."
Famous last words.
Like when the producer's girlfriend shows up during the final sound mix and starts making comments about the editing and the script and...and....
"Serological tests showed that some adults, particularly those over 60, had antibodies effective against the new strain, Jacqueline Katz, Ph.D., of the influenza division of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, and colleagues wrote in the May 22 issue of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. "
yes, I did a bit of research and it seems 30-60 year olds are very vulnerable. no one knows why. perhaps years of additional antigenic challenge from repeated flu vaccines in older folks over time makes their immune systems quicker to react to h1n1. but that's just my thought.
in terms of epidemiology, a colleague mentioned that my county has had 100 cases with 3 documented mortalities. of course, these 100 cases are the ones that present to hospital and have positive serology. who knows how many else out there.
go long Roche, eh?
Luci & all.
eventually the water gets turned off; the garbage literally piles up, the roof starts to
leak etc, etc.
I posted about the garbage building; after the garbage piled up a certain amount,
the county made everyone move out. Haven't heard what's happened yet.
This Maison Grande is the among the first ripples of the Great Condo Disaster
Tsunami.
There was another condo who didn't pay the water bill. Water got shut off and
the county made people leave; but the water got put back on and I don't know
what happened next.
I would only buy a condo in South Fla that is full of old people. They have low
or no mtges.
starve the rich (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 3:38 pm
"Serological tests showed that some adults, particularly those over 60, had antibodies effective against the new strain, Jacqueline Katz, Ph.D., of the influenza division of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, and colleagues wrote in the May 22 issue of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. "
I think it has to do with exposure to the strain responsible for the pandemic of 1957-58. It was particularly hard hitting in Massachusetts.
"yes, I did a bit of research and it seems 30-60 year olds are very vulnerable. no one knows why. perhaps years of additional antigenic challenge from repeated flu vaccines in older folks over time makes their immune systems quicker to react to h1n1. but that's just my thought."
Uh-oh! Wasn't that the same age group that got clobbered by the 1918 pandemic!
Swine flu immunity. . . low or no mtges. . . possibility of getting some SS before it
goes busto. . . . it's good to be old!! And it beats the other possibility.
I'd love to stay & chat but must drive to Merritt Island, where I have a ugh dentist
appointment tomorrow and even more uggg, an appointment with an "investment
advisor" on my mom's money. I would feel a fight coming on, but I have no
idea where to put my money much less hers. Mine continues to sit on the
sidelines.
Toodles.
"I think it has to do with exposure to the strain responsible for the pandemic of 1957-58. It was particularly hard hitting in Massachusetts. "
Has there been any evidence to suggest that MA is getting fewer cases of the current H1N1 variant? On might think that in an area hard hit by the precursor, it would travel as fast or saturate the populace quite so thoroughly.....or not;)
Liz is right, condo associations are not a rip off. Yeah, some overpay for services, but my guess is someone will notice, raise hell, and get a new condo board that will do a better job.
To the guy who said, "I hate my condo associations with a passion"; get in line. Everybody has strong feelings about their association. I was a director for four years until I couldn't take anymore. I really got tired of people saying, " I want this and this and this (all expensive projects) and I want you to cut assessments". I'm tired of listening to unit owners venting...l'd rather eat dirt.
Hey, I need for TIP to dip below $100 tomorrow, just long enough for me to buy some more. Does anyone know who I should call at Goldman Sachs to have them arrange that?
" sm_landlord (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 6:47 pm
Hey, I need for TIP to dip below $100 tomorrow, just long enough for me to buy some more. Does anyone know who I should call at Goldman Sachs to have them arrange that?"
I've heard that H.Paulson still has contacts there-
traderwalt - sounds like whining for more services and not wanting to pay might have other ramifications too. Could be big. Statewide even...
C
traderwalt (profile) wrote on Thu, 7/9/2009 - 3:46 pm
Everybody has strong feelings about their association. I was a director for four years until I couldn't take anymore. I really got tired of people saying, " I want this and this and this (all expensive projects) and I want you to cut assessments". I'm tired of listening to unit owners venting...l'd rather eat dirt.
Running for California Legislature are you?
starve the rich,
Thanks for posting, I have been following it locally, since we have had so many cases in the DFW area. My family and I were sick just a few weeks ago and our doctor took swabs from our youngest, and said they came back negative, we just went back in for his 18month checkup, and he admitted that there was a backlog on swab testing, and we might have had it, but he is still not sure. Doesn't matter cause we got better. Our doc mentioned that this flu is different, symptoms still not pinned down, and it is changing. He is just a local pediatrician, so I don't know how much of that is just talk. Also said DFW has several people in ICU around the area too, and it is being kept hush, hush. He is really scared about school starting up again this fall, and actually advised us to bring one child in and one parent (we usually all go since the kids are still so young) for appointments to limit infection possibilities at his office. Scary stuff.
"Uh-oh! Wasn't that the same age group that got clobbered by the 1918 pandemic! "
More younger people, as I recall. An interesting analysis from the Wikipedia entry:
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much deadlier than the first. During the first wave, which began in early March, the epidemic resembled typical flu epidemics. Those at the most risk were the sick and elderly, and younger, healthier people recovered easily. But in August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone and the United States,[39] the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. This has been attributed to the circumstances of the first World War.[40] In civilian life evolutionary pressures favor a mild strain: those who get really sick stay home, but those mildly ill continue with their lives, go to work and go shopping, preferentially spreading the mild strain. In the trenches the evolutionary pressures were reversed: soldiers with a mild strain remained where they were, while the severely ill were sent on crowded trains to crowded field hospitals, spreading the deadlier virus. So the second wave began and flu quickly spread around the world again.[41] It was the same flu, in that those who recovered from first-wave infections were immune, but it was far more deadly, and the most vulnerable people were those like the soldiers in the trenches—young, otherwise healthy, adults.[42] Consequently, during modern pandemics, health officials pay attention when the virus reaches places with social upheaval, looking for deadlier strains of the virus.[41]"
josap,
I witnessed some of the cleanup from the last big bust here in Phoenix when the AFR Hoas went bust.
The city never takes any of the amenities or streets.
Instead, the properties are sold to the ultimate bottom feeding scum (of which I partake every once in a while)- tax lien investors.
A more amoral and vicious crew you have never seen (the pros, not the little old ladies who went to the stupid seminars).
You will find that someone will buy that nice park like lot that was left for doggie runs, destroy the easements on it, and then sell it to folks to build a house on from LA.
The first anyone knows that it is gone is when the cyclone fence and building permit go up.
Other tricks include selling small parcels to the adjacent owners to increase their setbacks to make bigger houses or mother inlaw apartments.
I shudder at some of the more foolish folks taking stuff for granted when their HOA dissolves. Best thing to do is make an offer for the commons, cheap, and then do a really cheap lease that allows some maintenance by the neighbors and lodge it in a nonprofit 501C corp.
But just letting stuff go and counting on "easements" is a very dangerous course.
I remember one of my former neighbors in Carefree had a wash on the lot next door in a neighborhood of multimillion dollar homes- he assumed that the lot would be empty in perpetuity because of that natural drainage- well think again. They built a house suspended over the wash- yup they have a river when it floods with a glass floor to watch.
After seeing that, I never make assumptions about a property.
Someday this war's gonna end...
"sounds like whining for more services and not wanting to pay might have other ramifications too. Could be big. Statewide even"
It's my experience that after bitching, pissing and moaning at the meeting, almost all unit owners go back to their units and pay their bills if they have the money rather than get sued by the HOA(home owner's association). Here in Illinois the HOA will sue for up to six months of assessments that will be paid by the mortgage holder, if the unit is foreclosed.
josap, the banks pay whent they sell the property- Title companies are sticklers about that.
Due to recent changes in the law, you have to pursue late payment within 3 years or they are uncollectable legally.
Buuut, they are a priority, so if you sue, your lender gets notice and pays and tacks them on to the property- or the lender loses position and the HOA sells the entire property.
If that happens, I expect changes in the law again to preserve bankster assets.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Luxury condo to Section 8 housing...long predicted, now happening in NYC...
"A $20 million pilot program designed to turn unsold condominiums and stalled residential construction sites into as many as 400 affordable housing units for moderate- and middle-income families was unveiled today by city officials.
Under the Housing Asset Renewal Program, officials will seek to wring some good out of the current building bust by working with developers and banks to bring the cost of apartments in selected projects to below market rates.
“The credit crunch has left buildings across our city empty, just waiting for someone to call them home,” said City Council Speaker Christine Quinn."
from Crain's today...
The scenery was good at the G-8:
... - Yahoo! News Photos
Starbucks-
this looks like Blofeld's world command headquarters:
... - Yahoo! News Photos
Plan C-all we need is a billion dollars!!! Errr, make that 5 trillion and we have a deal!
Someday this war's gonna end...
High-end gardening chain Smith & Hawken to close, 56 stores. Probably doesn't mean much except to us granola-encrusted Northern Californians. Places like S&H pretty much defined classic yuppie culture in the early '80s.
After 30 years, Smith & Hawken to close
Heh heh [touches pinkie to curled lip] One Billion Dollars...!
C
granola-encrusted ...
more "green shoots": Las Vegas revenue ONLY down 8.3% y-o-y.
Of course, by last May the economy was starting to crumble, but forget about that. Just wait until November's y-o-y comps, they are gonna be AWESOME: "we were just as good as last year's horrible numbers".
Of course, don't forget this, this is a revenue number only, and only represents gambling revenue, not other revenue (which might be down more) and expenses (which might be up).
desperate.
Nevada casino winnings down 8.3 percent in May
"more "green shoots": Las Vegas revenue ONLY down 8.3% y-o-y."
From the linked article:
"The May win was the amount left in casino coffers after gamblers wagered $12.6 billion during the month, including $10.1 billion in slot machine bets. The balance was wagered on table games."
It looks like the whales are staying away. ISTR that the table games should be a higher percentage than that.
July 9 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. is unwilling to give CIT Group Inc. access to its Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program because the commercial lender’s credit quality is deteriorating, according to people familiar with the regulator’s thinking.
The FDIC, which has backed $274 billion in bond sales under the TLGP since Nov. 25, is concerned that guaranteeing CIT debt would put taxpayer money at risk , said the people, who declined to be identified because the application process is private.
When did that become a factor in an FDIC decision?
Bob,
I actually think that the end of S&H is very telling. Although there prices were (are) a bit high, their store locations are in the heartland of the upper-middle / upper class (e.g. the top 5% to top 1% of earners). In NorCal -- Berkeley, Burlingame and Palo Alto (land of $1mm+ bungalows).
Indicative of the end of MEW and income even in the most upscale areas.
Sheila Bair is no Timmay.
ghost, sm,
that is truly dismal news- the part that shocks me the most is this:
"The win was down during May in most major markets in the state, including the Las Vegas Strip in southern Nevada, which was off 6.4 percent.
Elsewhere in southern Nevada, Laughlin was down 15.1 percent, downtown Las Vegas declined 10.7 percent, and Mesquite was down 22.1 percent. North Las Vegas was up 2.9 percent and the Boulder Strip was up 10.3 percent.
Casino winnings in the Reno-Sparks-North Tahoe area of northern Nevada was down 8.6 percent. It was the 23rd consecutive month of declines for that area.
Elsewhere in northern Nevada, resorts on Lake Tahoe's south shore reported a 25.5 percent decrease in May compared with the same month a year earlier. Clubs in Elko County, in eastern Nevada, were down 5.7 percent."
The biggest luxury areas were down the most, and the only gains came in the stripped down poor casinos designed to wring the bottom dollar from RVers, social security players, and locals.
This still shows extreme economic distress- 17 months of declines!!! That is five months of stacked YOY declines!!!
We need Plan Z- might as well go to the end of the alphabet.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Utah coal plant scuttled, 100th in U.S. since 2002
Utah coal plant scuttled, 100th in U.S. since 2002
| Reuters
Now good news for docs in California:
State can't cut Medi-Cal fees, court rules
Federal law boxes the state- they can't cut costs willy nilly.
On the other hand, hope springs eternal for creative destruction in California to solve the housing foreclosure crisis:
Mysterious tremors detected on San Andreas Fault
(This one is for Rob Dawg;-}
Someday this war's gonna end...
"Utah coal plant scuttled, 100th in U.S. since 2002"
Oh, great. So now we can have electricity shortages again.
Somebody call J** J*** and tell him to blow harder on those windmills up at Tehachapi.
That is such a crock- the plant was scuttled because the West is now awash in surplus power.
Good news for APS though- they will be selling nice clean nuclear power to LADWP, and taking over the cheap coal power from Navajo. But hey, remember electricity is fungible. But green electricity is special.
My electric bill here in Phoenix thanks those thoughtful folks in California for the subsidy.
Someday this war's gonna end...
hopeinsd
I saw the bloomburg article too.
Dang, they are still insolvent. Dang, they want more money. Dang, how long will it take the Fed to just give it to them - March 2010 at the very latest. They are too big to fail, rught?
Looks like an earthquake hit China. 6.0, no details yet.
"Two economists with long-standing ties to the Federal Reserve warned Congress on Thursday that it would be a mistake to give the Fed broad power to supervise “systemic risk” and financial institutions that are deemed “too big to fail.”
- NY Times
Reason making a comeback. Will the politicos listen?
Will the politicos listen?
No - ears full of GS cash for re-election.
Aptly named.
Palo Verde, firm on-peak, spot $32.68 per megawatt up $1.12 3.55% 07/09
Cheeep. When enron was on their game this was routinely up to $70 bucks in the middle of summer, and hit over a $100 when you guys were browning out. plus we built all those merchant plants here in Arizona- can you say uneconomical with Natural Gas skyhigh- but now with $3 buck chuck - cheep, plus much less carbon tax.
Coal will suck for a long while.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Liz, consider here in Boston that a triple decker is considered a condo. One floor is considered a unit. How is $200/month not a rip off?
I do understand some buildings with amenities having fees, but paying for one floor of a former single family is a joke!
America’s economic woes were wrought by Republicans, Democrats and companies like Goldman Sachs. (For more insight, read Matt Taibbi’s article, “The Great American Bubble Machine” in Rolling Stone, page 52, July 9-23, 2009.) Want to know who’s driving the Wall Street to Washington train? Follow the money.
Tell a politician about a problem and he or she will derive a way government can fix it. Tell a Wall Streeter about a problem and he or she will derive a way to profit from it.
good articles... Interesting Finance & Economic articles
starve the rich,
We moved out of the Bay Area, Palo Alto, in Dec and in the hurry hurry of selling and moving I did not get my shot. I am however an old coot, 74, and so talk of residual immunity is comforting. Maybe I should just stay holed up in my mountain fastness untill this blows over?
"Liz, consider here in Boston that a triple decker is considered a condo. One floor is considered a unit. How is $200/month not a rip off?
I do understand some buildings with amenities having fees, but paying for one floor of a former single family is a joke!"----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Liz went to Merritt Island. But having been on a condo board for 4 years, I may be able to partially answer your question. The assessment covers the cost of repairing all the common areas which probably includes the boiler, roof, any parking areas, washers and dryers, keeping up common areas that may include trees, grass trimming and replacement, several kinds of insurance and janatorial services, trash collection, snow removal and probably a lot of other stuff. Once you realize how much it costs to replace a roof or an air conditioning unit, elevator, or repaving a driveway or parking lot, you will probably realize $200/ month is about right.
Back when I was thinking of buying a condo I was thinking that a really old one was the way to go.
I found a building which had stood for 80 years and still looked good, and a legal framework that had worked for so long that it didn't even have the same name as the new ones and was kind of difficult to get a mortgage for reassuring.
The pool/parking lease situation is a way for the developer to get rental income from people who think they own their homes. A bit of the best of both worlds for the developer.
Maison Grande was built in 1971, and is at the 60 block of Collins Ave. The beach is right behind the building.
From the article: "The significant drop in property values is a key factor pushing associations toward bankruptcy filings, said attorney Robert Kaye of Kaye & Bender in Fort Lauderdale. ... “
One would think that most condos in this building were bought many years ago, and now paid off: I.e., a "drop in values" (here is that word again - does he mean price) should not even matter. A lot of older people in this area, Italians from the Northeast, for example. Either, the HOA has jacked up the fees up to the sky. Or, a lot of original owners sold when prices were so high?
Whatever the case in this case, I am sure many others will follow, and I hope the banks that don't pay the HOA fees for the foreclosures will lose their properties.
Lobbyiest Ben Dover is right, the local government is under NO obligation to take over roads that aren't up to spec. The "roads" in most PUDs are, from a legal persepctive, simply common driveways. This was (and still is) an issue in the town I grew up in: Somebody built three houses next to a right of way, and puts gravel down so the buyers can drive there. Now many residents of the town would LIKE to have a road there, it would be a very convenient short cut. But neither the three residents nor the town wants to PAY to have this gravel common driveway upgraded to a paved street. There was a contre temps about snow removal, because the company that the town contracted to plow the streets was plowing this common driveway. It's unclear whether the residents were flagging down the driver and paying him personally, or paying the company seprately to also plow their "street." Either way, the town is not really an interested party, but there was alot of anger over this. And this has been going on for ~15 years with NO end in sight.