U.S. auto manufacturers General Motors and Ford have suspended operations for their production lines in Russia, Al Jazeera reported July 1. GM said there would be no major layoffs at its brand new plant outside St. Petersburg but that manufacturing would cease until Aug. 31. The company did not indicate whether the production halt signals smaller-scale cutbacks or unpaid temporary leaves of absence. A spokeswoman for Ford said it would shut down its St. Petersburg-area factory until July 13."
This is getting ridiculous.... How can the US bailout states when its already planning to borrow at least $10 trillion over the next 10 years ?
As Niall Ferguson there's just not enough money in the world to finance all the borrowing the U.S. ( and other big countries ) will be doing over the next few years.
What do we just put it on the tab U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time then tell rest of world keep on buying our T-Notes because the US will not default like Argentinia ?
But then again since California is a Latin American economy that just happens to be in the U.S maybe we will
If Obama wants to get reelected they will be backstopped, starting with Cali. Many states are not that bad off. Especially flyover states. They all cook the books and cry to the Feds so they get their share of Obama bucks. Should states get bailed out? NO but everybody except the responsible are, why stop now. A good voter is a dumb and happy voter.
The weird thing is if we could go jubilee then the other 49 would be looking to California for more assistance.
ee,
My friend Sandy Smith is a well known Philly journalist and my aunt has been part of the inner circle of society for oh... 60 years. The City of Friends is in trouble.
CalculatedRisk (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:04 pm
Rob Dawg, unemployment is being backstopped, but there are penalties for a state behind longer than a certain period (I'd have to look up the rules).
But I think you are correct - frequently these trial balloons come out of Fed economic letters.
For California it is a zero interest loan with a balloon in 2011. I don't have the exact date but it doesn't matter. There's no mechanism left to pay this back. I'm not being tinfoil or anything, we just don't have an economy now or in the future that supports these levels of largesse.
Right now we could use a greenland sized Papillon to house all the stupid ideas, congress critters, the treasury and people and it still might not be enough..btw-I booked my boat ride there already...
Instead of 50 Herbert Hoovers, we need 50 FDRs. For example, Schwarzenegger just needs to pack the (CA) Court and then he can unilaterally overturn the results of the special election and implement his proposals.
Yeah, we had a escaped pet python discussion some weeks ago.
It's real, here in the home of the Weird. People let the things go, and they
multiply in the swamps and eat the alligators. Someone posted a picture of
an exploded python who tried to eat a really big gator.
from my link above about nevada:
"Reinstatement fees for revoked or suspended licenses will go also go into effect Wednesday. Drivers who lost their licenses following a drunken driving arrest will be forced to pay between $65 and $120. Reinstatement fees for other offenses range from $40 to $75."
why not raise those dui fees to $6,500 to $12,000? the state would get extra cash and health care costs would go down. oh yeah, and less people would probably get killed by drunks too.
what group would protest raising fees on drunk drivers? here in nv catching drunks is like shootin fish in a barrel.
sneering nihilist-for that matter why not the cell phone driving ticket be $500.00 first time, $1000.00 second time with 30 day license susp...
How about enforcing the $500.00 littering ticket...tons of money there...or if your caught with one fish over limit or under size limit $500.00 per fish, 1000.00 per fish if over 2...
Well, here in the late great state of Arizona we have a budget, cobbled together out of bailing wire and line item vetoes. Arizona Governor Jan Brewer check out her 130 pages of veto!!!
The Governor is playing hardball with a legislature that has found new levels of disfunctionality.
Meanwhile tax collections keep on cliff diving, albeit at a declining rate: http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/mfh-jun-09.pdf
See page 10
Total tax collections are off 18% from May 08 to May 09-
This matches the average rate this year for the 11 month average.
But the reality is that May 08 already sucked compared to May 07 - That YoY drop was already 25.5%.
So the real conclusion is that we can't shrink state government fast enough to account for the huge drops in revenue, we need tax increases pronto, and a DC bailout.
There really is no easy way to look at the crash as anything other than a minidepression.
If you want to see the drop in even more stark terms:
11 months through May 2009 Total Tax revenues $6,685,301,764
11 months through May 2008 Total Tax revenues $8,198,744,986
11 months through May 2007 Total Tax revenues $8,832,440,546
A 2.2 BILLION DOLLAR DROP IN TWO YEARS?
This is Coyote territory- still good until you hit the bottom of the canyon.
sneering- that didn't come out right, I agree with you. Make the penalty so mean it bites...Murderer-put them to death in 30 days after conviction, you made the choice to take a life so we now end yours..
"After Rey’s $42,500 credit line was cut to $12,000, her debt relative to available funds almost quadrupled. This so- called utilization rate is a large component of the FICO formula and a higher ratio can lower a score. Rey, 62, is concerned a new FICO score will squash her ability to borrow."
LOL! A 62-year old worrying about a FICO score is beyond hope.
lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 3:56 pm
California needs more all right: a bop on the head with a baseball bat.
Liz you are too kind.
I think Rob may be onto something. Treat it like a reboot- turn the power off and wait until all the little electron's attitudes improve.
If that fails, crank it up a notch such as a glue soaked 2x4 upside the head.
"sales tax here in las vegas just went up to 8.1% today"
We're still at 6.75% No wonder the guys and gals are flocking across county lines to frequent OUR brothels - less sales tax.........oh wait........you don't have brothels........nevermind.....
cc lt -- i think that the dui market is a broad and deep resource for state funds here in nv. the thingy about capital punishment is that sometimes the wrong guy is convicted. aside from that, i agree with you too.
Black Star Ranch (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:32 pm
We're still at 6.75% No wonder the guys and gals are flocking across county lines to frequent OUR brothels - less sales tax.........oh wait........you don't have brothels........nevermind.....
bsr -- i've been tempted to drive over the hump and give one of those establishments a spin. never really even got close to actually going. (whispers) i'm not a nihilist in real life.
......LOL........I'm glad our Supervisors dislike large local vocal crowds with rolls of necktie rope - they're a pretty frugal bunch 'cept for a few we're replacing.
".....i've been tempted to drive over the hump and give one of those establishments a spin."
Well, they're a great tourist attraction with eye-pleasing candy walking around being pretty - but I've already lost three fingers doing more than looking - the Mrs is real quick with a pen-knife.
You should take a look at the studies on driving while on the cell-phone. It's the equivalent to being under the influence in terms of degradation of motor skills. As is texting while driving I believe.
Crap, we are at the 11th floor having jumped out of a highrise.
All is well, you can cut strings on the parachute- after all we think lower taxes will stimulate the economy.
Just like more adrenalin for Michael Jackson.
The stimulated economy of Greenspan is dead.
Just like a giving the markets a little shot Benjamin Strong style.
A pause on the glidepath is perceived as a point of stability.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
This budget crisis here in Arizona will be coming to state near and dear to most of you- namely yours!
The drop in economic activity is stunning. No other way to play it. And people wonder why I am short oil. Just waiting for reality to reassert itself.
You should take a look at the studies on driving while on the cell-phone. It's the equivalent to being under the influence in terms of degradation of motor skills. As is texting while driving I believe.
Why not just lump it all into Reckless Driving and take the caste system out of it?
How about slicing the IOUs into risk pools that can be sold to pension funds, japanese housewives, and AIG. Give them a high-falutin' French name..."tranches" perhaps. Problem solved.
Reno Realtor (homepage, profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:41 pm
I read Krugman's piece that we can't stop spending now--totally different from what I think should be done. But what do I know compared to the guy?
At the very least I at least know a compelling different perspective.
Krugman has his head up his ass on this....in case you missed this.
Just why is there so much debt in the Anglo-Saxon world? Bankers and regulators know well that it is in nobody’s long-term interests to have allowed borrowing to escalate to a position where the US now owes far more, as a multiple of the economy, than at the start of the Great Depression.
The answer is capitalism’s dirty little secret: excessive lending was the only way to maintain the living standards of the vast bulk of the population at a time when wealth was being concentrated in the hands of an elite.
At the same time, our unwillingness to say no to great society programs, without raising taxes to pay for them, meant that we became beholden to the bond market for funding ongoing operations, this creating an elevated base of required income to service our rising debt.
We should all come to terms with the fact that these are structural issues needing structural solutions; they need to be enforced over a longer time period than any one government’s term. So we need a new political consensus, one aimed at reducing overall debt levels while reducing inequality by encouraging education, entrepreneurship and investment in innovation.
Thanks for posting that file. Here's a key sentence, from page 5 of the pewtrust report:
"A key indicator of a pension fund’s condition is how much in assets it has to cover its longterm liabilities to retirees. In other words, a fund that is 50 percent funded has half the assets it needs. A safe level is considered to be 80 percent. All figures represent locally-run pension systems for general fund employees only."
That is not correct. An 80% funded ratio would never be considered "safe." It would be "adequate" if the government entity backing the pension is economically strong and solvent, capable of making continued pension contributions including amounts to fill shortfalls and bring funding up to 100%.
Currently (by eyeballing graphs for 2008):
Philly 58%
Boston 63%
Pittsburgh 29%
Atlanta 55%
Chicago 63%
Not only have the assets behind these funds probably dropped since 2008. The liabilities have increased due to low interest rates (discount rates). I'd bet all of these ratios are now about 5-10% lower. Very, very bad.
Public DB pensions are a nightmare. Not PBGC insured, either. Many public retirees will get hosed.
Alas, the imperial machine is now so metastasized in our economic life that excising the cancer might prove fatal to the patient. You'd need an entire new plan for how to run America, Inc. Not to mention you'd cede the lucrative arms running game to other powers, and weak nations now forced into paying us tribute would soon find new masters to please.
But that's all hypothetical. I don't think anybody seriously believes that Americans are free to choose their destiny in this matter. We are now well on our way to becoming the "mega banana republic" Mailer envisioned.
BSR writes: ".....well, being old, I sometimes have a little trouble standing up without a soft shoulder or a pretty little strong hip for help......."
By such reasoning, the more reckless the better, others should be compelled to help fulfill your "need". CA doesn't "need" anything except to live within their means.
Connecticut towns are in some of the worse shape that I've seen, partially because they were such easy prey for Wall Street. I remember reading about a town that used to be PAYGO for its benefits. Then, the town was convinced to finance the fund by issuing hundreds of millions in bonds. Of course, the fund investments have collapsed, but the debt and bennies still needs to be serviced.
in a way, public DB plans, because they are backstopped by taxpayers, are "heads i win, tails you lose"
No!!! It's nonsense. Every state has the ability to cut their spending and raise their taxes. Why should the federal government (and all taxpayers) pay for the benefits that other states have? Why should someone in Missouri pay for the wildly liberal social programs that Californians have.........if they want those benefits then tax themselves.......if they don't cut the services.
now..lets see....judging from the kind of jobless recovery we had after the last recession, where it took nearly two years after the worst monthly job loss (325k lost in Oct 2001) before we got any meaningful job gains...that would put us at end of 2010 when job gains are enough to stop the rise in the unemployment rate. Which would probably put us at close to 13% or perhaps higher.
The last jobless recovery was relatively jobless, even though we created a lot of housing market bubble related jobs. And this time around, those arent going to appear. So, it's easy to make the case that this time around, a jobless recovery will last through most of 2011.
Now think of what this means to California. 18% unemployment? I mean, basically, we're talking about a depression.
No way no how, the Feds dont bail out CA. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not next week, but its going to happen.
Hondo I completely agree i.e. the dead beat states that get back $1+ to almost $2 for every $1 paid to Fed gov ( and BTW are mostly mostly red states in South and flyover country ) can cut their spending and raise their goddam taxes.
And regarding Cali which is Latin American economy that just happens to be in the U.S well let's just say I don't give a shit !
And people wonder why I am short oil. Just waiting for reality to reassert itself.
Allen, It is idiocy to be short oil, if your fundamental view is sustained economic weakness. Oil is a universal store of value, and in times of economic weakness production declines. If you are such an economic bear, short...
tech
small caps
europe
japan
emerging markets
reits
in a way, public DB plans, because they are backstopped by taxpayers, are "heads i win, tails you lose"
They are not heads I win tails you lose for plan participants.
They are lose, lose, lose for plan participants,who have been banking on this money for decades and will get royally screwed in their old age. They are not insured by anybody.
DB plans aren't a great deal for governments either. When investment markets and interest rates drop at the same time, they create funding nightmares.
The easiest, fairest most efficient way possible to save millions of jobs, reinvigorate states and business, turn around consumer sentiment and get the country stabilized is initiating Single Payer Healthcare ...
America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them.
GDD9000 (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 7:24 pm
Now think of what this means to California. 18% unemployment? I mean, basically, we're talking about a depression.
No way no how, the Feds dont bail out CA. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not next week, but its going to happen.
Moloch is a hungry, and intensely jealous, god. He requires the sacrifice of our children to propitiate his insatiable appetite for life. Ours is the magic of anti-life and Moloch requires living hosts. Who among those who remained could survive without him? The future of the few must be sacrificed so the illusions of the many may be sustained in the present. It's not about California and its demographic realities as much as the collective delusion. Terrorism was always a real threat, but it only became visceral to the many following unthinkable actions of both physical and psychological significance. Moloch's followers have always lived far above the common herd; he rewards his faithful servants with temporal power.
Maybe Cali should not worry about subsidizing other states now they are in trouble and should have worried about supporting our neighboring countries to the south for decades.
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
While we definitely need a wake-up call and need to learn within our means I don't know about going back to banking panics, boom and bust and people hungry on the street.
My late grandmother was born in 1896 and lived to a hundred and I NEVER remember her talking fondly of the Great Depression of World Wars 1 and 2.
WRT the public pensions you've been discussing. Does it make a difference if those pensions are guaranteed by the state constitution as they are in New York? Or do you think those pensioners are in for as much of a surprise as others?
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
While we definitely need a wake-up call and need to learn within our means I don't know about going back to banking panics, boom and bust and people hungry on the street.
More dead means less income being consumed, making the rest of us all richer since there's more to distribute among fewer people. We have or had enough surplus income to sustain a social safety net, but not a free lunch much less subsidizing industries and institutions. I'm also not so sure we'd want to throw out the real (largely non-economic) gains made in the past century. Baby and bathwater. The free marketeer is all for letting nature take its course... as long as he remains in a superior position.
No way Obama bails out Cali. He'll never get re-elected after three years of Fox News reports on the six figure pensions. You'd be surprised to find out that there are a lot of people in America that don't like Californians. Or maybe you won't.
Most of you folks are so selfish. Besides, do you really want millions of Californians moving to your states? Bail 'em out, I say. But, the federal government should be responsible in how it does so. For example, the loans must be repaid, at least partially, anyway, within the next, say, 100 years. (This of course assumes that repayment would not constitute an inconvenience.) And the interest which the federal government is to earn on these loans should be funneled to homeowners in default, so they can continue to live the lives to which they have become accustomed. (I've become accustomed to your face, accustomed to your smile, accustomed to your _______. I forgot the rest of the line.) Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Forgive your trespasser. And, finally, bail bail bail.
North Carolina is in terrible shape. New taxes and even more spending will bankrupt the state. Corrupt governor wants new taxes of over 1.5 billion to spend.
"Should US bail out States?
Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?
Most of you folks are so selfish. Besides, do you really want millions of Californians moving to your states? Bail 'em out, I say. But, the federal government should be responsible in how it does so. For example, the loans must be repaid, at least partially, anyway, within the next, say, 100 years
So the children of our children can pay for our plundering crazy legislators and credit criminal induced public...right
presents the federal pension bail maximums for pensions.
Currently it is $4500/mo for retirement at 65, $2900 at age 65 ans $2000 at age 55.
I bet these look a lot different then California's pension plans.
If any State wants a bail-out it should first reduce its pension benefits to PBGC guidelines
FEDs take over police, fire and schools in exchange for money. There will be 50 state czars and will report directly to the White house making the Senate and Congress irrelevant.
"You'd be surprised to find out that there are a lot of people in America that don't like Californians."
of course. everytime we have an economic boom (and we've had at least a dozen) we suck up and spit out millions of wannabes from everywhere from Russia to Kansas. few are successful enough to put down roots. been that way since 1849 or so... and the bitter losers go home, with enough bile for a lifetime.
And you put money behind every one of Abby's calls?
I sure didn't.
So, a shill for GS spouts some noise, and you point to an article showing the last big source of funds is pushing into a narrow market afloat on oil.
Lol, the funny part is the amount of oil on hand has to keep dropping just to reflect the dropping demand. After all, if the price of oil has stayed up, but gas, diesel, and heating oil fell throughout the last bit of time.
Hmm, out on a limb, hoping for a hurricane.
But demand keeps on dropping- everybody keeps pointing at miles driven, but petrochemicals are cratering in demand. Plus natty gas is cheap, so anybody who can switch, is doing so.
What truth? The nobles and the church refused to pay taxes even after france was insolvent! I would not be surprised if the young queen Antoinette (who liked to spend her vacations in carefully designed villages to "connect" with real country life) was a stupid and arrogant twit.
//I do not think you are familiar with the truth behind the "let them eat cake" story.//
Citizen Allen..I think my writing style is throwing you off? I've been thinking of doing what you mentioned..but I keep seeing the market react opposite to truth..So I was just seeing if your reasoning was similar...
disclaimer-I got hammered in reit shorts...but still feel it was and will be a good trade...
//Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?//
"If I wanted to destroy a nation," he wrote in 1966, "I would give it too much and I would have it on its knees, miserable, greedy and sick."
- John Steinbeck
//Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?//
I think some braindead idiots have a rather romantic view of history!
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
"PS- you also forgot about various faultlines in CA"
forget? naw, I've felt a few quakes in the past year. they're fun. the real fault lines are places like the san marino/alhambra border, or the atherton/north fair oaks border, or the perimeter of schools like Mills or USC...
July 1 (Bloomberg) -- When CondoFlip.com debuted in 2004, you knew housing was headed for a tumble.
Here was a Web site where customers could buy and sell, sight unseen, condominiums that had yet to be built. It was confirmation of the degree to which home prices had come untethered from housing fundamentals.
Billionaire investor George Soros today said that Obama is "doing very well except in the recapitalization of banks and the reorganization of the mortgage market."
Soros, the chairman of Soros Fund Management, said he was pleased with the administration's handling of education, health care and global warming.
But, he said, "I'm afraid that it's too much continuity between the Obama administration and the Bush administration as far as the management of the financial system is concerned," Soros said this morning at a breakfast discussion hosted by the Wall Street Journal.
George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2.
Soros has done many positive things, and been consistently right on a wide variety of issues - the degree to which someone uses him as a bête noire is a good barometer of their idiocy (see: triumphalist GOP ca. 2002-2006)
Yes! I am in the middle of rereading it now. The technology and the devices (and housing=farms) have changed. The story has not.
I'm pretty sure that Steinbeck would not have written that book if he had the outlet of CR & doomster boards.
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:51 pm
George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2.
Exactly. Soros advocates rationing resources for OTHER people. I wonder what he would think of my vote for where he should be for a place in line.
you are correct in that the pain is slowly bubbling up the socioeconomic ladder. it has been here for at least a few months for folks who actually work for a living (notwithstanding the long term post-reagan income gap)
If you looked beyond you nose and realize food stamps are a locked in sale for farm products. Powerful farmers and the land barons of the US.First it was SS, Food stamps, school lunches, school breakfast, medicare/medicade, unemployment, job training, free school, cash for kids, day care, housing, gas and electric, ETC. Problem is it these are not all for the poor anymore. The level of poverty has grown out of control.
"George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2."
~~~~
Merely noting the kerfluffle ...
Soros is bailing while the bailing is good ...
Obama's about to get a real edumacation for trusting Summers and Geithner ...
Soros is behind all those colored revolutions that fade into kaos ...
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:56 pm
Rob Dawg,
Same with Paul Krugman, Jared Diamond, Paul Ehrlich (the enviro).. They all want to lord over other people.
I have a special category set aside for Krugman but comity and Godwin prevent me from naming that particular circle of Hell.
Ref. Lord Haw-haw.
Krugman wants to believe Malthus because he was right for 58 out of 60 centuries. So why criticize the financial system that was "working perfectly" till late 2007?
//Leave aside the climate science issues. What very few people realize is that Malthus was right about most of human history — indeed, he was right about roughly 58 out of 60 centuries of civilization://
HollywoodHack (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:52 pm
Soros has done many positive things, and been consistently right on a wide variety of issues - the degree to which someone uses him as a bête noire is a good barometer of their idiocy (see: triumphalist GOP ca. 2002-2006)
Soros is surprisingly insightful and I have a lot more respect for his opinions after having read most of The Alchemy of Finance. I came up the path of the paranoid conspiracists, not formal or informal interest in money and economics, so nothing really surprises me now. I especially like his analysis of the Reagan era (the "Imperial Circle"), which I am way too young to remember. That said I would not take investment advice from him, as he has way too much skin (and reputation to uphold) in this game.
volker the viking (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:41 pm
reply ignore user
"disclaimer-I got hammered in reit shorts...but still feel it was and will be a good trade..."
right
As a proud SRS owner who currently has problems sitting down that gives me hope.
"Millions still go hungry at the end of each month ...
Schools out so no school lunches ...
There are people starving in Central California ...
Your quips are vulgar ... "
No one goes hungry in the US if truly needy. Bums and kids with idiot parents are another story. So go feed them, the excess from my garden will go to the local senior center. Seriously you need to do some studying.
Feinstein said the $787 billion federal stimulus package helped but said it's not enough. She asked Vilsack to provide even more assistance for California food banks.
"Local resources are inadequate to cope with this emergency," Feinstein wrote.
Requests for comment from the Department of Agriculture were not immediately returned late Wednesday.
Dayatra Latin, director of operations for the Community Food Bank in Fresno, said her organization feeds about 70,000 people a week -- 30,000 more than it served two years ago.
It distributes rice, dried beans, pasta, poultry and canned fruits and vegetables. She said lines for food are typically one or two blocks long.
During a recent distribution, recipients began lining up at 4 a.m., even though the food was not scheduled to be made available until five hours later.
"It's just an amazing sight to see, particularly here in this country, that you'll see folks line up that early for food -- not 'American Idol' auditions or something," said Latin, whose organization serves a three-county region in the Central Valley.
I left Cali 30+ years as I could not stand the direction it was going. Now it is finally clasping and you defend give aways. The difference is enabling to helping. I bet most (not the kids) deserve the mess they are in, that is my point. I believe help comes with respect and responsibility, even pay back. The system has none of that.
creditcriminalslovetarp, I was being tongue-in-cheek. I am sick of the bailouts, especially those directed at the housing industry. If we ever again experience a healthy housing market, it will be in spite of what government is now doing. Perhaps before long the BHO administration will mandate price levels. (BHO will tell us how to build cars and at what price to sell homes.)
I love visiting San Francisco, but I really can't muster too much sympathy for the state and their wayward ways and foolish residents who are solely responsible for the mess they are in. Sorry, but I think there are other areas that can produce lettuce. And most CA varietal wines are vastly overpriced. Californians created their mess, let them clean it up. If they can't, too bad for them.
Please, with these kinds of terms, if it's the action in the sentence then it's two words: 'The government will bail out another bank.'
If it's an entity in the sentence, or a description of one, then it's one word: 'That's another bailout.'
It's just like so many other similar pairs:
blow up vs. blowup
back up vs. backup
break down vs. breakdown
cut back vs. cutback
run away vs. runaway
etc.
If one wants to get technical, the first example on each line is a phrasal verb and the second one is a noun, or maybe an adjective in the right context. It's actually a rather useful and consistent pattern in our otherwise pretty inconsistent language. The alternatives are either to make these things always be single words (try on 'bailouted' for size) or have all the many hundreds of phrasal verbs out there split when they change form: 'Should we bailout them now, or should they be bailed out later?'.
No need; California is already issuing its own scrip.
Good as cash!
Need cash now? Cash4Warrants.com... offer them 50% face value.
Seriously, though, if banks accept Bear Chits, every other state will follow. We'll be back to Continental Currency days.
Unemployment funds are already being backstopped. this is just the trial balloon to judge the tolerance of the sheeple.
are the warrants taxed as income when issued, or when redeemed? And is the interest received tax free at the federal level?
pigged
ot cali state workers plan protest tonight and tomorrow.
we do not have the money.
and the gov talks about us buying stuff we cannot afford.!
Oh, Basel, you are just picky.
California needs more all right: a bop on the head with a baseball bat.
"July 1, 2009
U.S. auto manufacturers General Motors and Ford have suspended operations for their production lines in Russia, Al Jazeera reported July 1. GM said there would be no major layoffs at its brand new plant outside St. Petersburg but that manufacturing would cease until Aug. 31. The company did not indicate whether the production halt signals smaller-scale cutbacks or unpaid temporary leaves of absence. A spokeswoman for Ford said it would shut down its St. Petersburg-area factory until July 13."
Hey RD,
Here is an interesting write up of one impending shoestorm of public employee benefits
Philadelphia Confronts the Cost of Employee Benefits
http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Philadelphia-area_grantmaking/PewBenefits_June2909.pdf
Basel Too,
From last thread - that project would take a small army of RA's in some MPA program or some such...
This is getting ridiculous.... How can the US bailout states when its already planning to borrow at least $10 trillion over the next 10 years ?
As Niall Ferguson there's just not enough money in the world to finance all the borrowing the U.S. ( and other big countries ) will be doing over the next few years.
What do we just put it on the tab U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
then tell rest of world keep on buying our T-Notes because the US will not default like Argentinia ?
But then again since California is a Latin American economy that just happens to be in the U.S maybe we will
If Obama wants to get reelected they will be backstopped, starting with Cali. Many states are not that bad off. Especially flyover states. They all cook the books and cry to the Feds so they get their share of Obama bucks. Should states get bailed out? NO but everybody except the responsible are, why stop now. A good voter is a dumb and happy voter.
My question is, what happens so special by October 9th that makes CA think it will have the money then, either.
Rob Dawg, unemployment is being backstopped, but there are penalties for a state behind longer than a certain period (I'd have to look up the rules).
But I think you are correct - frequently these trial balloons come out of Fed economic letters.
best wishes
The weird thing is if we could go jubilee then the other 49 would be looking to California for more assistance.
ee,
My friend Sandy Smith is a well known Philly journalist and my aunt has been part of the inner circle of society for oh... 60 years. The City of Friends is in trouble.
October 9th is one day after October 8th.
And it's in the future.
Well, if Cali gets something, relatively Frugal Florida should get something too!
A canal separating it from the rest of the Union?
sales tax here in las vegas just went up to 8.1% today
Gibbons: Tax Increase Result Of 'Conspiracy' - Las Vegas News Story - KVVU Las Vegas
Sorry, but Philly is one city that is even uglier than Balto.
My mom was remarking how beautiful everything in Merritt Island.
I refrained, but then she said, don't say in comparison to Baltimore.
I laughed and said that was just what I was thinking.
Here's what Americans will be showing ( with US $$$ ) if Obama keeps on borrowing trillions and bailing out over next few years.
http://bit.ly/18IWU3
CalculatedRisk (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:04 pm
Rob Dawg, unemployment is being backstopped, but there are penalties for a state behind longer than a certain period (I'd have to look up the rules).
But I think you are correct - frequently these trial balloons come out of Fed economic letters.
For California it is a zero interest loan with a balloon in 2011. I don't have the exact date but it doesn't matter. There's no mechanism left to pay this back. I'm not being tinfoil or anything, we just don't have an economy now or in the future that supports these levels of largesse.
Only 8.1? A pittance. Actually, less here.
That canal thing got rejected some while ago. I forgot about that.
Right now we could use a greenland sized Papillon to house all the stupid ideas, congress critters, the treasury and people and it still might not be enough..btw-I booked my boat ride there already...
lawyer liz...
Why would anyone want a 12 ft python pet?
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
boyfriend and mother for letting him have it in the house can join me on greenland-papillon....
...we just don't have an economy now or in the future that supports these levels of largesse.
And therein lies the core of the problem. It goes for individuals, states, municipalities and eventually, the federal government.
Instead of 50 Herbert Hoovers, we need 50 FDRs. For example, Schwarzenegger just needs to pack the (CA) Court and then he can unilaterally overturn the results of the special election and implement his proposals.
Without comment:
YouTube - Bugs Bunny Cuts Florida Loose
Yeah, we had a escaped pet python discussion some weeks ago.
It's real, here in the home of the Weird. People let the things go, and they
multiply in the swamps and eat the alligators. Someone posted a picture of
an exploded python who tried to eat a really big gator.
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse in California. . .
We have got to stop putting federal bailout money into the hands of people with a demonstrated inability to manage money! [screams into pillow]
Even Bugs B doesn't like us??
Thrice cursed: a woman, a lawyer and from Florida.
from my link above about nevada:
"Reinstatement fees for revoked or suspended licenses will go also go into effect Wednesday. Drivers who lost their licenses following a drunken driving arrest will be forced to pay between $65 and $120. Reinstatement fees for other offenses range from $40 to $75."
why not raise those dui fees to $6,500 to $12,000? the state would get extra cash and health care costs would go down. oh yeah, and less people would probably get killed by drunks too.
what group would protest raising fees on drunk drivers? here in nv catching drunks is like shootin fish in a barrel.
Bursting bubble jokes in 3... 2... 1...
OT: Hmmm: Charges filed against Beazer; Settlement reached
Edit: Link working now.
lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:16 pm
Even Bugs B doesn't like us??
Thrice cursed: a woman, a lawyer and from Florida.
At least you aren't a Democrat... oh?... sorry.
sneering nihilist-for that matter why not the cell phone driving ticket be $500.00 first time, $1000.00 second time with 30 day license susp...
How about enforcing the $500.00 littering ticket...tons of money there...or if your caught with one fish over limit or under size limit $500.00 per fish, 1000.00 per fish if over 2...
Met the hub at a Goldwater meeting, still registered Republican for want of
any other way to be registered.
Who knew dawgs had such a tribal streak in them?
creditcriminalslovetarp -- nice slippery slope. drunks kill people.
Is there ever a rationale for governments to cut spending according to economists?
The Feds will bailout the states. This preamble is all about positioning, negotiation tactics, etc.
lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:21 pm
Met the hub at a Goldwater meeting, still registered Republican for want of
any other way to be registered.
For the record I'm a registered R and Mrs. Dawg a D. That way we get all the propaganda in election cycles. It was a coin toss and I lost.
Read what i wrote three years ago: Exurban Nation: Political Fallout
Well, here in the late great state of Arizona we have a budget, cobbled together out of bailing wire and line item vetoes.
Arizona Governor Jan Brewer check out her 130 pages of veto!!!
The Governor is playing hardball with a legislature that has found new levels of disfunctionality.
Meanwhile tax collections keep on cliff diving, albeit at a declining rate:
http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/mfh-jun-09.pdf
See page 10
Total tax collections are off 18% from May 08 to May 09-
This matches the average rate this year for the 11 month average.
But the reality is that May 08 already sucked compared to May 07 - That YoY drop was already 25.5%.
So the real conclusion is that we can't shrink state government fast enough to account for the huge drops in revenue, we need tax increases pronto, and a DC bailout.
There really is no easy way to look at the crash as anything other than a minidepression.
If you want to see the drop in even more stark terms:
11 months through May 2009 Total Tax revenues $6,685,301,764
11 months through May 2008 Total Tax revenues $8,198,744,986
11 months through May 2007 Total Tax revenues $8,832,440,546
A 2.2 BILLION DOLLAR DROP IN TWO YEARS?
This is Coyote territory- still good until you hit the bottom of the canyon.
Someday this war's gonna end...
sneering- that didn't come out right, I agree with you. Make the penalty so mean it bites...Murderer-put them to death in 30 days after conviction, you made the choice to take a life so we now end yours..
All is fine.........."Bank of America to accept California state IOUs"
MarketWatch
"Is there ever a rationale for governments to cut spending according to economists?"
Sure, in the past and future.
Hurrah for the goveratress!
Must stop typing, must, must.
Here's my laugh of the day:
"After Rey’s $42,500 credit line was cut to $12,000, her debt relative to available funds almost quadrupled. This so- called utilization rate is a large component of the FICO formula and a higher ratio can lower a score. Rey, 62, is concerned a new FICO score will squash her ability to borrow."
LOL! A 62-year old worrying about a FICO score is beyond hope.
Bloomberg.com
[...we just don't have an economy now or in the future that supports these levels of largesse]
Ummm, when did we have one ?
lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 3:56 pm
California needs more all right: a bop on the head with a baseball bat.
Liz you are too kind.
I think Rob may be onto something. Treat it like a reboot- turn the power off and wait until all the little electron's attitudes improve.
If that fails, crank it up a notch such as a glue soaked 2x4 upside the head.
.... damn, sneering nihilist
"sales tax here in las vegas just went up to 8.1% today"
We're still at 6.75% No wonder the guys and gals are flocking across county lines to frequent OUR brothels - less sales tax.........oh wait........you don't have brothels........nevermind.....
cc lt -- i think that the dui market is a broad and deep resource for state funds here in nv. the thingy about capital punishment is that sometimes the wrong guy is convicted. aside from that, i agree with you too.
Well this 63 year old might buy another car sometime on time and would
like to have a good score to get low rates.
So fie on you, Charles.
Black Star Ranch (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:32 pm
We're still at 6.75% No wonder the guys and gals are flocking across county lines to frequent OUR brothels - less sales tax.........oh wait........you don't have brothels........nevermind.....
We don't have taxable brothels.
[Political contributions are deductible,]
Actually, CR, a lot of the stimulus was aimed at states.
Well, there you go, Californicators prob solved!
The Fed Letter is dated "August, 2009"
Can't they just use their time machine to figure out the best outcome?
Leaked letter? CR? Squid?
bsr -- i've been tempted to drive over the hump and give one of those establishments a spin. never really even got close to actually going. (whispers) i'm not a nihilist in real life.
"A 62-year old worrying about a FICO score is beyond hope."
A 62-year old counting on a credit card line of $42,500 is beyond hope.
......LOL........I'm glad our Supervisors dislike large local vocal crowds with rolls of necktie rope - they're a pretty frugal bunch 'cept for a few we're replacing.
May I ask where your name came from Squidsie?
Shouldn't have counted on it--should have taken it out and counted it.
I read Krugman's piece that we can't stop spending now--totally different from what I think should be done. But what do I know compared to the guy?
At the very least I at least know a compelling different perspective.
-Joe Salcedo
".....i've been tempted to drive over the hump and give one of those establishments a spin."
Well, they're a great tourist attraction with eye-pleasing candy walking around being pretty - but I've already lost three fingers doing more than looking - the Mrs is real quick with a pen-knife.
" sneering nihilist (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:22 pm
* reply
* Ignore user
creditcriminalslovetarp -- nice slippery slope. drunks kill people."
You should take a look at the studies on driving while on the cell-phone. It's the equivalent to being under the influence in terms of degradation of motor skills. As is texting while driving I believe.
You did more than look,
?
Crap, we are at the 11th floor having jumped out of a highrise.
All is well, you can cut strings on the parachute- after all we think lower taxes will stimulate the economy.
Just like more adrenalin for Michael Jackson.
The stimulated economy of Greenspan is dead.
Just like a giving the markets a little shot Benjamin Strong style.
A pause on the glidepath is perceived as a point of stability.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
This budget crisis here in Arizona will be coming to state near and dear to most of you- namely yours!
The drop in economic activity is stunning. No other way to play it. And people wonder why I am short oil. Just waiting for reality to reassert itself.
Someday this war's gonna end...
You should take a look at the studies on driving while on the cell-phone. It's the equivalent to being under the influence in terms of degradation of motor skills. As is texting while driving I believe.
Why not just lump it all into Reckless Driving and take the caste system out of it?
Nitey-nite.
How about slicing the IOUs into risk pools that can be sold to pension funds, japanese housewives, and AIG. Give them a high-falutin' French name..."tranches" perhaps. Problem solved.
Mothers Against Reckless Driving doesn't have some stupid way to make a word from the acronym. Mothers Against Backronyms is worth supporting.
Reno Realtor (homepage, profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 4:41 pm
I read Krugman's piece that we can't stop spending now--totally different from what I think should be done. But what do I know compared to the guy?
At the very least I at least know a compelling different perspective.
Krugman has his head up his ass on this....in case you missed this.
Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret
FT.com / Comment / Opinion - Debt is capitalism’s dirty little secret ( Financial Times )
Just why is there so much debt in the Anglo-Saxon world? Bankers and regulators know well that it is in nobody’s long-term interests to have allowed borrowing to escalate to a position where the US now owes far more, as a multiple of the economy, than at the start of the Great Depression.
The answer is capitalism’s dirty little secret: excessive lending was the only way to maintain the living standards of the vast bulk of the population at a time when wealth was being concentrated in the hands of an elite.
At the same time, our unwillingness to say no to great society programs, without raising taxes to pay for them, meant that we became beholden to the bond market for funding ongoing operations, this creating an elevated base of required income to service our rising debt.
We should all come to terms with the fact that these are structural issues needing structural solutions; they need to be enforced over a longer time period than any one government’s term. So we need a new political consensus, one aimed at reducing overall debt levels while reducing inequality by encouraging education, entrepreneurship and investment in innovation.
.....well, being old, I sometimes have a little trouble standing up without a soft shoulder or a pretty little strong hip for help.......
allen M,
the only issue with demand and shorting oil is in bold here...
MarketWatch - Stock Market Quotes, Business News, Financial News
just more games being played by GS, JPM as us pawns get taken out...
Specifically, the Treasury’s report found that the aid to the states arrived after the recession had already bottomed out
I don't think we'd need to worry about that this time....
They've bailed out the banks, investment banks, automakers, insurance companies, realtors and homebuilders.
How can they possibly have the fortitude to turn down the states!???
energycom,
Thanks for posting that file. Here's a key sentence, from page 5 of the pewtrust report:
"A key indicator of a pension fund’s condition is how much in assets it has to cover its longterm liabilities to retirees. In other words, a fund that is 50 percent funded has half the assets it needs. A safe level is considered to be 80 percent. All figures represent locally-run pension systems for general fund employees only."
That is not correct. An 80% funded ratio would never be considered "safe." It would be "adequate" if the government entity backing the pension is economically strong and solvent, capable of making continued pension contributions including amounts to fill shortfalls and bring funding up to 100%.
Currently (by eyeballing graphs for 2008):
Philly 58%
Boston 63%
Pittsburgh 29%
Atlanta 55%
Chicago 63%
Not only have the assets behind these funds probably dropped since 2008. The liabilities have increased due to low interest rates (discount rates). I'd bet all of these ratios are now about 5-10% lower. Very, very bad.
Public DB pensions are a nightmare. Not PBGC insured, either. Many public retirees will get hosed.
How can they possibly have the fortitude to turn down the states!???
Banksters won't be directly hurt. In fact, if there are CDSs written on state bonds, banksters will benefit by not bailing out the states. Profit!
cr writes: "Of course states like California need more than a little aid ..."
Once again, CR has a way with the obvious.
Looking for discretionary spending to cut?
The cost of empire is huge.
Alas, the imperial machine is now so metastasized in our economic life that excising the cancer might prove fatal to the patient. You'd need an entire new plan for how to run America, Inc. Not to mention you'd cede the lucrative arms running game to other powers, and weak nations now forced into paying us tribute would soon find new masters to please.
But that's all hypothetical. I don't think anybody seriously believes that Americans are free to choose their destiny in this matter. We are now well on our way to becoming the "mega banana republic" Mailer envisioned.
BSR writes: ".....well, being old, I sometimes have a little trouble standing up without a soft shoulder or a pretty little strong hip for help......."
and how is Milk Shake these days?
@That Barton Fink Feeling
We are now well on our way to becoming the "mega banana republic" Mailer envisioned.
Bingo !
By such reasoning, the more reckless the better, others should be compelled to help fulfill your "need". CA doesn't "need" anything except to live within their means.
Public DB pensions are a nightmare.
Connecticut towns are in some of the worse shape that I've seen, partially because they were such easy prey for Wall Street. I remember reading about a town that used to be PAYGO for its benefits. Then, the town was convinced to finance the fund by issuing hundreds of millions in bonds. Of course, the fund investments have collapsed, but the debt and bennies still needs to be serviced.
in a way, public DB plans, because they are backstopped by taxpayers, are "heads i win, tails you lose"
No!!! It's nonsense. Every state has the ability to cut their spending and raise their taxes. Why should the federal government (and all taxpayers) pay for the benefits that other states have? Why should someone in Missouri pay for the wildly liberal social programs that Californians have.........if they want those benefits then tax themselves.......if they don't cut the services.
now..lets see....judging from the kind of jobless recovery we had after the last recession, where it took nearly two years after the worst monthly job loss (325k lost in Oct 2001) before we got any meaningful job gains...that would put us at end of 2010 when job gains are enough to stop the rise in the unemployment rate. Which would probably put us at close to 13% or perhaps higher.
The last jobless recovery was relatively jobless, even though we created a lot of housing market bubble related jobs. And this time around, those arent going to appear. So, it's easy to make the case that this time around, a jobless recovery will last through most of 2011.
Now think of what this means to California. 18% unemployment? I mean, basically, we're talking about a depression.
No way no how, the Feds dont bail out CA. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not next week, but its going to happen.
Hondo I completely agree i.e. the dead beat states that get back $1+ to almost $2 for every $1 paid to Fed gov ( and BTW are mostly mostly red states in South and flyover country ) can cut their spending and raise their goddam taxes.
And regarding Cali which is Latin American economy that just happens to be in the U.S well let's just say I don't give a shit !
got gold?
Canadian Mint still can't find C$18.8 million in gold
| Canada
| Reuters
Canadian Mint still can't find C$18.8 million in gold
you are victims of state controlled propaganda
Allen, It is idiocy to be short oil, if your fundamental view is sustained economic weakness. Oil is a universal store of value, and in times of economic weakness production declines. If you are such an economic bear, short...
tech
small caps
europe
japan
emerging markets
reits
short weakness, not strength
Damn good thing you just used your hand...
They are not heads I win tails you lose for plan participants.
They are lose, lose, lose for plan participants,who have been banking on this money for decades and will get royally screwed in their old age. They are not insured by anybody.
DB plans aren't a great deal for governments either. When investment markets and interest rates drop at the same time, they create funding nightmares.
The easiest, fairest most efficient way possible to save millions of jobs, reinvigorate states and business,
turn around consumer sentiment and get the country stabilized is initiating Single Payer Healthcare ...
Its also the other way around. A lot of California's revenue goes to prop up the "red states"
Really the only solutions are returning power to the states and the people (via social credit) all else will fail.
I'm all for getting the right mixture of Jeffersonian and Jacksonian democracy because the USA Fed gov today is FUBAR and broke!
unfortunately, Jefferson and Jackson are dead
"Really the only solutions are returning power to the states and the people (via social credit) all else will fail."
~~~~
Won't work ...
Corporations and high income individuals will play states against each other ...
as they already are in many cases ...
AMEN
"I'm all for getting the right mixture of Jeffersonian and Jacksonian democracy because the USA Fed gov today is FUBAR and broke!"
~~~~
The US is far from broke ... We just need to raise taxes on the wealthy, high income and corporations ... plus a few other use taxes ...
Notice that the first mention of higher taxes was on the middle class ... taxing health benefits !
America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them.
GDD9000 (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 7:24 pm
Now think of what this means to California. 18% unemployment? I mean, basically, we're talking about a depression.
No way no how, the Feds dont bail out CA. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not next week, but its going to happen.
Moloch is a hungry, and intensely jealous, god. He requires the sacrifice of our children to propitiate his insatiable appetite for life. Ours is the magic of anti-life and Moloch requires living hosts. Who among those who remained could survive without him? The future of the few must be sacrificed so the illusions of the many may be sustained in the present. It's not about California and its demographic realities as much as the collective delusion. Terrorism was always a real threat, but it only became visceral to the many following unthinkable actions of both physical and psychological significance. Moloch's followers have always lived far above the common herd; he rewards his faithful servants with temporal power.
"...we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
+10
Maybe Cali should not worry about subsidizing other states now they are in trouble and should have worried about supporting our neighboring countries to the south for decades.
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
While we definitely need a wake-up call and need to learn within our means I don't know about going back to banking panics, boom and bust and people hungry on the street.
My late grandmother was born in 1896 and lived to a hundred and I NEVER remember her talking fondly of the Great Depression of World Wars 1 and 2.
News from Hawaii, where tourist visits (the lifeblood of the economy) are down 20% YOY.
Hawaii state workers rally at Capitol to protest furloughs | honoluluadvertiser.com | The Honolulu Advertiser
Lobbyist Ben Dover
"America worked fine till the social safety net started.
Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
~~~~~
Total crap ...
As if Food Stamp recipients caused the financial crisis ....
get a life ...
volker the viking
"...we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
+10
~~~~
Card carrying member of the Troglodyte Party?
what does mmckinl represent?
The tree of solvency must be watered, now and then, with the worth of financiers and debtors.
(With apologies to Thomas Jefferson.)
rich,
WRT the public pensions you've been discussing. Does it make a difference if those pensions are guaranteed by the state constitution as they are in New York? Or do you think those pensioners are in for as much of a surprise as others?
Edited for typo
poic (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:08 pm
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
While we definitely need a wake-up call and need to learn within our means I don't know about going back to banking panics, boom and bust and people hungry on the street.
More dead means less income being consumed, making the rest of us all richer since there's more to distribute among fewer people. We have or had enough surplus income to sustain a social safety net, but not a free lunch much less subsidizing industries and institutions. I'm also not so sure we'd want to throw out the real (largely non-economic) gains made in the past century. Baby and bathwater. The free marketeer is all for letting nature take its course... as long as he remains in a superior position.
volker the viking
what does mmckinl represent?
~~~
A little social justice would be appropriate after Reaganomics has created
the biggest wealth and income gap in American history ...
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
and Thos. Jefferson
"The free marketeer is all for letting nature take its course... as long as he remains in a superior position. "
How true. A lot of "free marketeers" become Socialists when times are tough.
mmckinl: so what does it mean?
No way Obama bails out Cali. He'll never get re-elected after three years of Fox News reports on the six figure pensions. You'd be surprised to find out that there are a lot of people in America that don't like Californians. Or maybe you won't.
Most of you folks are so selfish. Besides, do you really want millions of Californians moving to your states? Bail 'em out, I say. But, the federal government should be responsible in how it does so. For example, the loans must be repaid, at least partially, anyway, within the next, say, 100 years. (This of course assumes that repayment would not constitute an inconvenience.) And the interest which the federal government is to earn on these loans should be funneled to homeowners in default, so they can continue to live the lives to which they have become accustomed. (I've become accustomed to your face, accustomed to your smile, accustomed to your _______. I forgot the rest of the line.) Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Forgive your trespasser. And, finally, bail bail bail.
volker the viking
mmckinl: so what does it mean?
~~~~~
It means a fair and just social contract given the wealth of the country ...
Not ...
Taxing the Health Care Benefits of the middle class ...
poic (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:18 pm
"The free marketeer is all for letting nature take its course... as long as he remains in a superior position. "
How true. A lot of "free marketeers" become Socialists when times are tough.
And corporate fascists when times are good.
fear has strange effects on otherwise rational people, brianinboise
North Carolina is in terrible shape. New taxes and even more spending will bankrupt the state. Corrupt governor wants new taxes of over 1.5 billion to spend.
and bullshit on mmckinl
That article is exactly why I feel comfortable shorting.
GS is on the other side of those trades with the big funds.
Now, who would you bet on? Large institutional funds or GS?
I take the house.
Someday this war's gonna end...
"Should US bail out States?
Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?
volker the viking
and bullshit on mmckinl
~~~~~
Coming from you that is a compliment ...
thanks !
brianboise,
Most of you folks are so selfish. Besides, do you really want millions of Californians moving to your states? Bail 'em out, I say. But, the federal government should be responsible in how it does so. For example, the loans must be repaid, at least partially, anyway, within the next, say, 100 years
So the children of our children can pay for our plundering crazy legislators and credit criminal induced public...right
Let CA eat cake.
citizen allen M,
I thought GS was calling for $85.00 oil? are u saying they are going to pull the reit trick?
my pleasure
bearly (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:23 pm
Let CA eat cake.
Fitting, as they already tried to have it.
I pity the fools stuck in the eighty's
bearly,
I do not think you are familiar with the truth behind the "let them eat cake" story.
It is funny the way you other 49 keep finding new ways to pretend that California is not your latest AIG.
Maximum monthly guarantee tables (PBGC.gov)
presents the federal pension bail maximums for pensions.
Currently it is $4500/mo for retirement at 65, $2900 at age 65 ans $2000 at age 55.
I bet these look a lot different then California's pension plans.
If any State wants a bail-out it should first reduce its pension benefits to PBGC guidelines
Wow looking at auto sales... What a disappointment
What am I going to do with 100 balloons with "10 million SAR" printed on it?
On the states
Here is the grand plan
FEDs take over police, fire and schools in exchange for money. There will be 50 state czars and will report directly to the White house making the Senate and Congress irrelevant.
CA is our latest France
"You'd be surprised to find out that there are a lot of people in America that don't like Californians."
of course. everytime we have an economic boom (and we've had at least a dozen) we suck up and spit out millions of wannabes from everywhere from Russia to Kansas. few are successful enough to put down roots. been that way since 1849 or so... and the bitter losers go home, with enough bile for a lifetime.
creditcriminalslovetarp,
And you put money behind every one of Abby's calls?
I sure didn't.
So, a shill for GS spouts some noise, and you point to an article showing the last big source of funds is pushing into a narrow market afloat on oil.
Lol, the funny part is the amount of oil on hand has to keep dropping just to reflect the dropping demand. After all, if the price of oil has stayed up, but gas, diesel, and heating oil fell throughout the last bit of time.
Hmm, out on a limb, hoping for a hurricane.
But demand keeps on dropping- everybody keeps pointing at miles driven, but petrochemicals are cratering in demand. Plus natty gas is cheap, so anybody who can switch, is doing so.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Isn't this scrip an invitation for vast amounts of tax headache, litigation, claims and unwelcome surprises?
C
C: uh, yes
Isn't this scrip an invitation for vast amounts of tax headache, litigation, claims and unwelcome surprises?
C
That's part of the plan. More work for accountants and attorneys.
What truth? The nobles and the church refused to pay taxes even after france was insolvent! I would not be surprised if the young queen Antoinette (who liked to spend her vacations in carefully designed villages to "connect" with real country life) was a stupid and arrogant twit.
//I do not think you are familiar with the truth behind the "let them eat cake" story.//
Counterpointer (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:31 pm
Isn't this scrip an invitation for vast amounts of tax headache, litigation, claims and unwelcome surprises?
C
green jobs, naturally.
HollywoodHack,
1930s = grapes of wrath
2010s = wrath of gapes
PS- you also forgot about various faultlines in CA
// few are successful enough to put down roots. been that way since 1849 or so... and the bitter losers go home//
Citizen Allen..I think my writing style is throwing you off? I've been thinking of doing what you mentioned..but I keep seeing the market react opposite to truth..So I was just seeing if your reasoning was similar...
disclaimer-I got hammered in reit shorts...but still feel it was and will be a good trade...
peace...
As opposed to?
//Isn't this scrip an invitation for vast amounts of tax headache, litigation, claims and unwelcome surprises?//
13.9 Trillion to Banksters?
//Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?//
"If I wanted to destroy a nation," he wrote in 1966, "I would give it too much and I would have it on its knees, miserable, greedy and sick."
- John Steinbeck
Prescient....YES !
Grapes of Wrath, a classic for today?
BBC NEWS | Americas | Grapes of Wrath, a classic for today?
Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:28 pm
Wow looking at auto sales... What a disappointment
What am I going to do with 100 balloons with "10 million SAR" printed on it?
20,000 auto dealers are going to need "girl condoms" for what's coming.
KM4
Excellent quote!
RD - LOL
Hopefully CR doesn't catch that one
So let me get this right... 13.9 Trillion to irresponsible bakers is a good idea, and a fraction of that to everyone else is a bad idea?
//"I would give it too much and I would have it on its knees, miserable, greedy and sick."//
Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:38 pm
RD - LOL
Hopefully CR doesn't catch that one
Experience suggests funny gets a bit more latitude.
Worth repeating :
Lucifer
13.9 Trillion to Banksters?
//Should a person whose credit cards are maxed out and who has no possible way of of paying them back, borrow more money in order to bail out his insolvent boss?//
"disclaimer-I got hammered in reit shorts...but still feel it was and will be a good trade..."
right
I think some braindead idiots have a rather romantic view of history!
"America worked fine till the social safety net started. Maybe it is to far gone and we need a greater depression to realize we have to take care of ourselves and help others not enable them."
"PS- you also forgot about various faultlines in CA"
forget? naw, I've felt a few quakes in the past year. they're fun. the real fault lines are places like the san marino/alhambra border, or the atherton/north fair oaks border, or the perimeter of schools like Mills or USC...
Luci: you keep posting links to articles you didn't write and you'll be okay
As opposed to hallucinating about something that never existed?
// you'll be okay//
Luci, you're not old enough to have a sufficient perspective.
It is funny, bur she NEVER said anything like than in 2005,2006 and most of 2007.
Scooping Poop to Mozart Augurs Trough in Housing: Caroline Baum
Scooping Poop to Mozart Augurs Trough in Housing: Caroline Baum - Bloomberg.com
Commentary by Caroline Baum
July 1 (Bloomberg) -- When CondoFlip.com debuted in 2004, you knew housing was headed for a tumble.
Here was a Web site where customers could buy and sell, sight unseen, condominiums that had yet to be built. It was confirmation of the degree to which home prices had come untethered from housing fundamentals.
So how is the "perspective" working out? Still think you can play 'mercantilism reloaded'?
//Luci, you're not old enough to have a sufficient perspective.//
Billionaire investor George Soros today said that Obama is "doing very well except in the recapitalization of banks and the reorganization of the mortgage market."
Soros, the chairman of Soros Fund Management, said he was pleased with the administration's handling of education, health care and global warming.
But, he said, "I'm afraid that it's too much continuity between the Obama administration and the Bush administration as far as the management of the financial system is concerned," Soros said this morning at a breakfast discussion hosted by the Wall Street Journal.
Soros: Obama's Econ. Policy Too Much Like Bush - ABC News
Wow !
What a broadside ...
George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2.
Oklahoma Republicans Ready To Blame The Recession On 'Debauchery'
Oklahoma Republicans Ready To Blame The Recession On 'Debauchery'
Funny ... they don't mention Governor Sanford ...
Soros has done many positive things, and been consistently right on a wide variety of issues - the degree to which someone uses him as a bête noire is a good barometer of their idiocy (see: triumphalist GOP ca. 2002-2006)
More mass layoffs coming to the MSM soon. Even the WSJ has it up (a few months late, but whatever).
This ship is still taking on water and it's movedd up to middle-class/mgmt types.
They bought nice houses arouond here and every city they work in spread around the country.
Real pain starts about Sept./Oct.
Grapes of Wrath, a classic for today?
Yes! I am in the middle of rereading it now. The technology and the devices (and housing=farms) have changed. The story has not.
I'm pretty sure that Steinbeck would not have written that book if he had the outlet of CR & doomster boards.
Yes.. Stanford believed that gay marriage destroyed the sanctity of hetero marriage. His numerous affairs only enhanced the sanctity of his marriage.
//Oklahoma Republicans Ready To Blame The Recession On 'Debauchery'//
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:51 pm
George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2.
Exactly. Soros advocates rationing resources for OTHER people. I wonder what he would think of my vote for where he should be for a place in line.
"Real pain starts about Sept./Oct. "
you are correct in that the pain is slowly bubbling up the socioeconomic ladder. it has been here for at least a few months for folks who actually work for a living (notwithstanding the long term post-reagan income gap)
mmckinl
If you looked beyond you nose and realize food stamps are a locked in sale for farm products. Powerful farmers and the land barons of the US.First it was SS, Food stamps, school lunches, school breakfast, medicare/medicade, unemployment, job training, free school, cash for kids, day care, housing, gas and electric, ETC. Problem is it these are not all for the poor anymore. The level of poverty has grown out of control.
Back to weeding my Obama survival garden.
Lucifer
"George Soros also supports rationing energy , resources to people.. It is somewhat funny that he has issues with that when the occupying germans did that to his family in ww2."
~~~~
Merely noting the kerfluffle ...
Soros is bailing while the bailing is good ...
Obama's about to get a real edumacation for trusting Summers and Geithner ...
Soros is behind all those colored revolutions that fade into kaos ...
Rob Dawg,
Same with Paul Krugman, Jared Diamond, Paul Ehrlich (the enviro).. They all want to lord over other people.
rottweiler writes: Real pain starts about Sept./Oct"
Open a window, somebody is talking out their ass
volker which ass am i talking out of, and what window would you have me open?
Lobbyist Ben Dover
Millions still go hungry at the end of each month ...
Schools out so no school lunches ...
There are people starving in Central California ...
Your quips are vulgar ...
More Cali hijinks...Frustration reigns as budget crisis deepens
Assembly speaker storms out of meeting.
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:56 pm
Rob Dawg,
Same with Paul Krugman, Jared Diamond, Paul Ehrlich (the enviro).. They all want to lord over other people.
I have a special category set aside for Krugman but comity and Godwin prevent me from naming that particular circle of Hell.
Ref. Lord Haw-haw.
Krugman wants to believe Malthus because he was right for 58 out of 60 centuries. So why criticize the financial system that was "working perfectly" till late 2007?
//Leave aside the climate science issues. What very few people realize is that Malthus was right about most of human history — indeed, he was right about roughly 58 out of 60 centuries of civilization://
HollywoodHack (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 8:52 pm
Soros has done many positive things, and been consistently right on a wide variety of issues - the degree to which someone uses him as a bête noire is a good barometer of their idiocy (see: triumphalist GOP ca. 2002-2006)
Soros is surprisingly insightful and I have a lot more respect for his opinions after having read most of The Alchemy of Finance. I came up the path of the paranoid conspiracists, not formal or informal interest in money and economics, so nothing really surprises me now. I especially like his analysis of the Reagan era (the "Imperial Circle"), which I am way too young to remember. That said I would not take investment advice from him, as he has way too much skin (and reputation to uphold) in this game.
volker the viking (profile) wrote on Wed, 7/1/2009 - 6:41 pm
reply ignore user
"disclaimer-I got hammered in reit shorts...but still feel it was and will be a good trade..."
right
As a proud SRS owner who currently has problems sitting down that gives me hope.
RobDawg,
Is it too much to ask those remind us of the injustices meted out to their ancestors, to not become like their ancestor's oppressors?
//I have a special category set aside for Krugman but comity and Godwin prevent me from naming that particular circle of Hell.//
"Millions still go hungry at the end of each month ...
Schools out so no school lunches ...
There are people starving in Central California ...
Your quips are vulgar ... "
No one goes hungry in the US if truly needy. Bums and kids with idiot parents are another story. So go feed them, the excess from my garden will go to the local senior center. Seriously you need to do some studying.
Forgot, kids up to the age of 18 get free lunch all summer in my town. I wonder who pays for that?
Lobbyist Ben Dover
Feinstein said the $787 billion federal stimulus package helped but said it's not enough. She asked Vilsack to provide even more assistance for California food banks.
"Local resources are inadequate to cope with this emergency," Feinstein wrote.
Requests for comment from the Department of Agriculture were not immediately returned late Wednesday.
Dayatra Latin, director of operations for the Community Food Bank in Fresno, said her organization feeds about 70,000 people a week -- 30,000 more than it served two years ago.
It distributes rice, dried beans, pasta, poultry and canned fruits and vegetables. She said lines for food are typically one or two blocks long.
During a recent distribution, recipients began lining up at 4 a.m., even though the food was not scheduled to be made available until five hours later.
"It's just an amazing sight to see, particularly here in this country, that you'll see folks line up that early for food -- not 'American Idol' auditions or something," said Latin, whose organization serves a three-county region in the Central Valley.
liz,
That may be an overstatement. I have nothing against women.
mmckinl'
I left Cali 30+ years as I could not stand the direction it was going. Now it is finally clasping and you defend give aways. The difference is enabling to helping. I bet most (not the kids) deserve the mess they are in, that is my point. I believe help comes with respect and responsibility, even pay back. The system has none of that.
....do they still have battling caterers for the homeless in Santa Monica park?
creditcriminalslovetarp, I was being tongue-in-cheek. I am sick of the bailouts, especially those directed at the housing industry. If we ever again experience a healthy housing market, it will be in spite of what government is now doing. Perhaps before long the BHO administration will mandate price levels. (BHO will tell us how to build cars and at what price to sell homes.)
I love visiting San Francisco, but I really can't muster too much sympathy for the state and their wayward ways and foolish residents who are solely responsible for the mess they are in. Sorry, but I think there are other areas that can produce lettuce. And most CA varietal wines are vastly overpriced. Californians created their mess, let them clean it up. If they can't, too bad for them.
CR,
Please, with these kinds of terms, if it's the action in the sentence then it's two words: 'The government will bail out another bank.'
If it's an entity in the sentence, or a description of one, then it's one word: 'That's another bailout.'
It's just like so many other similar pairs:
blow up vs. blowup
back up vs. backup
break down vs. breakdown
cut back vs. cutback
run away vs. runaway
etc.
If one wants to get technical, the first example on each line is a phrasal verb and the second one is a noun, or maybe an adjective in the right context. It's actually a rather useful and consistent pattern in our otherwise pretty inconsistent language. The alternatives are either to make these things always be single words (try on 'bailouted' for size) or have all the many hundreds of phrasal verbs out there split when they change form: 'Should we bailout them now, or should they be bailed out later?'.
Bill D.
California will be bailed....you can bank on it