It can be - consider Alexander's looting of the Persian treasury, or Caesar taking Egypt's hoard.
This was large scale wealth distribution which sharply increased velocity of money and reduces concentration and provided multi-generational stimulus.
They couldn't sell 'em to anyone else for what they wanted so they dumped 'em on the Fed -- grrrrrreat!
P.S. And it is a miracle that the Fed didn't buy AIG's 1.4 million sq ft of office space on Pine Street, surely they would have paid more than the investors who scooped it for less than $100 sq ft.
Our education system has done well. Most Americans are not smart enough to be mad. Government is taking ownership of key business for a tax revenue stream and control. Maybe Jaz is more right then I thought.
Well, the biggest places revenue is spent is the school system and prisons, I think, so think about who their vendors are (employees can't be paid by IOUs, so its the vendors)
I wonder how CRE in natural resource rich counties will do. Both canada and australia had huge CRE building sprees during the commodity boom. I hope they both go down the shitter.
the aussie govt came up with a plan months ago to save CRE from the shitter that has stalled over executive compensation
@ Bankers or Terrorists
Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement...
Weren't Constitutions such quaint notions...
Was senior secured debt in an admittedly wobbly AIG superior to a preferred stake in two wholly-owned subsidiaries? How was the valuation determined? Why does WaPo refer to these two divisions as 'crown jewels'?
Heh...the Fed is going to be in every business...the Plutocrats have finally succeeded in total domination of the state and the people.
I'll say "RED" - because we wouldn't be in this mess if we hadn't pursued the Rand-ian right-wing/libertarian anti-regulatory policies of the past 30 years, particularly under Greenspan (who was just bleating about inflation of all things - Mr. 1.25% FFR himself). The Clintonistas were/are hardly "liberals", "socialists" or "pro-government" - Rubin, Summers & now Geithener have demonstrated clearly that they are Ray-gun/Greenspan style oligopolist plutocrats. Now that we've permitted "private" entities to capture the infrastructure of our economy, we have no choice but to save them...this was all baked in, decades ago. The RTC made that clear.
When will Greenberg be hauled in for Tarring & Feathering?
Sounds like an SPV shell game to me. I thought the US gov already owned 80% of AIG, so how does moving AIG assets to a new SPV and using shares in that to pay off AIG debt owed to the US gov really do much?
Ya gotta luv those Enron-specials 'special purpose vehicles'. Their special purpose is to hide outright thievery from those who read the financial statements.
Somehow, FED = Enron rings my Friday bell like it is VE/VJ day plus Bush's departure from POTUS. Let freedom ring, baby!
Ok, let's go with California Bailout.
What about the other 40 something states that are also insolvent.
How many states/ companies can we bail before the USD does lose reserve currency status?
And what is that going to do to the bond market?
Elephants and Asses
Trampling the Masses
Does it matter who steals from you?
Red or Blue?
It would be a lot easier if the dynamic duo BB and Timmy would just publish the firms chosen to survive the coming economic apocalypse. Just let the public know which companies won the survival lottery and won't be allowed to fail no matter what. I know the free market dogma and religion is crucial to American self-image, but unless we are going down the road to the Orwellian 2+2=5 scenario, we need to shed it and come to terms with what we are becoming. It is clear we aren't going to federalize everything, but I am getting the sneaking suspicion that by the time this is all over the survivors will all have federal oversight and ties that bind. I suggest everyone stop bickering about donkeys and elephants. Doesn't matter. There is only one party, one company, one religion now....I never thought it would happen so fast.
"HomeGnome (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009
OK, let's go with California Bailout.
What about the other 40 something states that are also insolvent.
How many states/ companies can we bail before the USD does lose reserve currency status?
And what is that going to do to the bond market?"
Yeah, but you're looking at it without the time variable. All 40 states you mention won't blow up on the same day....it will happen over time. Probably the hope on the Feds part here is that while states are blowing up, one by one, small eastern European countries start blowing up (Latvia, Estonia, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Greece) along with western Europe's banking system with owns those countries (oopsie!), therefore trashing the euro. I'll say it again: MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline.
And pushes oil and commodities way, way, up. Oil....the new reserve currency.
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout.
Where in the Constitution is any of the BS the TPTB have pulled?
THEY will do what they want, when they want, and you; CONSUMER, will STFU and CONSUME.
"Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout. "
Actually Rob I'm working here in Dubai so I don't have a 401k. That was an easy bet on my part. Saw this coming in California in 2007 and decided I didn't need to be shipping portions of my paycheck to the state of California anymore.
And Dubai is coming back, for all of those about to make fun of it. Abu Dhabi is bailing it out and the stopped construction sites are moving again. I want to thank all my statesside friends everytime they fill up their gas tanks for bailing us out.
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 8:00 am
"Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement..."
Is that true? C'mon
Yeah I don't quite remember that line in the Constitution.
Snigger. He invoked the Constitution. Heehee.
Just the bottom line. California will get a bailout because the Democrats don't have an electoral chance in hell of holding the Presidency in '12 without California safely in their column. The very fact that they might have to fight for the State loses them as many electoral votes elsewhere with the effort. Personally i think the House could change hands in '10 if the Democrats bungle the California insolvency.
" It's fascinating to follow the coverage of Michael Jackson's death, but especially the lavish tributes to his "genius" and general wonderfulness. He was, in fact, a monster, and an apt reflection of America's extreme collective cultural confusion. He was a distillation of the lies America tells itself. He was infantile, grandiose, horrifying, and probably dangerous. His "accomplishments" as a grown man amounted to little more than a half dozen popular songs. The arc of his life may have been tragic, but it was a tragedy of his own making. His sudden end brings to mind a remark Gore Vidal made upon hearing about the death of Truman Capote: "Good career move."
". I'll say it again: MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline."
FYI, most Eastern European countries are not even in eurozone, not to mention most of money invested there went into meaningful projects. Dollar is DEAD man walking since you guys did not bother to take care of your manufacturing base. Candy paper flag country called USA is going down.
@Vonbek777: It's depressing, but yes, I think you've nailed it. I am sorry/sad to say that the Orwellian NewSpeak has been with us for a good long while now.
"Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:58 am
MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline.
And pushes oil and commodities way, way, up. Oil....the new reserve currency."
If the dollar goes up in value, oil should go down, no?
crazyv (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 8:11 am
California IOU's - Continental Congress IOU ?
Heck if CA can get away with them why not every other state?
Will be interesting to see the market in those IOU's
I want mine in the form of a debit card I can swipe to pay sales taxes on all my transactions.
California will be bailed out and the market will rally on the back of it. Does anyone realistically think that if a single bank is too big to fail that the biggest state will be allowed to fail. Come on get real.
" Rob Dawg (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:59 am
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout."
How'd you guys (and gals) get to keep your 401k when all I got left with was a 201k?
This isn't intended to promote conspiracy theories of a North American Union but here is some food for thought. A couple of years ago a retired army general was made the head of W's bird flu pandemic panel (can't remember the name of the general right now, drawing a blank)...anyway this panel was tasked with planning and response. There were high profile meetings all over the place and one of the things that was discussed was using Canadian troops in US cities along the Canadian border and Mexican troops in places like L.A. where large Spanish speaking populations lived. This would only happen if there was a pandemic and martial law had to be invoked. Rational is that there aren't enough US troops and National Guard units to go around in the case of a nation wide pandemic. Problem is US constitution. But a martial law coupled with existing emergency agreements between all three countries bypasses this issue. To my knowledge, Obama hasn't rebuked or dismantled this framework. I am not suggesting a conspiracy here. I think the extra troops would be necessary if a crisis of the magnitude war-gamed happened. What I am suggesting is that this is a sure sign of US decline. The US military over-stretched and committed abroad, can't meet the requirements of its own people in an emergency. Now combine economic collapse with flu pandemic in the fall. Just something I have been thinking about lately.
June 26 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. are expanding in “jumbo” mortgages used to buy the most expensive homes, helping revive a market that shriveled amid a three-year jump in homeowner defaults.
JPMorgan resumed buying new jumbo loans made by other lenders this month, after halting purchases in March, spokesman Tom Kelly said. Borrowers must have checking accounts with the bank, he said. Citigroup is again offering the loans through independent mortgage brokers, spokesman Mark Rodgers said.
" Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:18 am
........ high profile meetings all over the place and one of the things that was discussed was using Canadian troops in US cities along the Canadian border and Mexican troops in places like L.A. where large Spanish speaking populations lived. This would only happen if there was a pandemic and martial law had to be invoked. Rational is that there aren't enough US troops and National Guard units to go around in the case of a nation wide pandemic. Problem is US constitution....... "
" shill (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:19 am
Looks like AIG was just un-officially NATIONALIZED."
We and they are just realizing it. It happened to them some time ago, at the end of the Bush Admin. I believe. Citi and others as well. Welcome to New Think....
AIG is swapping debt for equity. That's what should have happened to our insolvent banks.
Shell games don't address the fundamental problems afflicting our eCONomy. Shell games may be good for banks and a select few, but only at the expense of others.
I can't say I disagree with any of "The Obama Administration's Five Errors". It makes total sense. This was interesting:
"Obama has promised to introduce healthcare coverage for America's close to 46 million uninsured. That would be like adding a country the size of Spain to the US."
Volker,
I think people just don't get the Fed being a private bank thing. I have been trying to talk to people about this for years, and it just goes right through the ears. It's like the private citizens fighting in Iraq. Most have dual citizenship. The don't fall under military authority. They aren't governed by the US constitution or any agreements regulating the behavior of the US armed forces. They are truly free agents who can wreak havoc for better or worse. Whose interests do they represent?
"Now combine economic collapse with flu pandemic in the fall. Just something I have been thinking about lately."
Various war game have shown various things. Internal administrative control (whose?) seems to have been an issue. I've never seen anything suggesting introducing foreign forces and it sounds far-fetched to me. But I'm not an insider.
Opinion from a friend of long experience re Swine flu:
"This flu is killing people between the ages of 15 and 50 - those folks who weren't around for the last Swine flu outbreak.
At any rate, this flu is not as severe as the flu bugs of the past .... We will see the true consequences of the outbreak this coming winter - that's when this bug is going to wreak havoc."
Since when did you start believing that anyone is in control?
//Various war game have shown various things. Internal administrative control (whose?) seems to have been an issue. I've never seen anything suggesting introducing foreign forces and it sounds far-fetched to me. But I'm not an insider.//
As for surviving the Soviet collapse. I was there for a visit in October of '91, and I well recall that even people who were relatively well-placed economically were scared.
"Privatization" of AIG could not be more incorrect given that Greenberg's looted monster will only be nominally transfered to a private banking cartel called FED.
The payment will of course be made with the blood, sweat and tears of future generations of unwitting J6Ps.
Satan must be proud of his childrens' legerdemain.
I think people just don't get the Fed being a private bank thing. I have been trying to talk to people about this for years, and it just goes right through the ears.
Not a lot of folks around that can remember when a "bank" could provide private script, and that there used to be exchange rates for the script.
Now we limit only one bank to being able to provide script.
The guiding principle in seeking standard coverage for those 46 million uninsured has been given a smaller scale run in Massachusetts. Rather than funneling those with no coverage through their preferred access point - the emergency room - and requiring hospitals to address the problem ad hoc, requiring some reasonable coverage for all who are working (as it was done in Mass) and imposing a significant penalty on those who have income, but no insurance, has brought health care costs down. Somewhat.
When almost everyone has coverage, it turns out indigent care gets back to more nearly reasonable numbers, and there are some net savings.
pavel,
I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites, but my primary source comes word of mouth from someone who sat in on briefings given to the President Bush. Again this was a war-game scenario. The agreements were put in place, but it was not an automatic contingency plan. There aren't troops waiting in Canada or Mexico to deploy to the US in the event of a disaster. A formal request would have to be put in place by the President, and it would likely take months to implement. There were actual constitutional scholars brought in to address the issue.
Since when has reality followed war games and other gerrymandered scenarios?
//I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites, but my primary source comes word of mouth from someone who sat in on briefings given to the President Bush. Again this was a war-game scenario.//
"pavel,
I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites,"
OK, thanks Vonbek777. Since the last foreign occupation of the US - by a recognized state that is - took place in 1812, it's kind of hard to imagine. Confederate nostalgia may differ.
What?
China is refusing a Hummer?
BEIJING (AP) -- China National Radio says the state planning agency is likely to reject a Chinese company's bid to acquire bankrupt General Motors Corp.'s Hummer unit.
Lucifer,
Not suggesting it does. The point of interest to me, is that the planning and conversations were happening at all. Regardless of what everyone thought about W, he was very worried about a bird flu outbreak.
"HomeGnome (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:41 am
If everyone MUST have insurance, then what is the point?"
The point is to distribute risk, just like every other legitimate form of insurance (not those credit default devices that have been the source of so much trouble).
HomeGnome, can't speak for programs yet to be implemented, but in MA service was provided for those who can't pay - and those who wouldn't pay got such a stiff fine, it was cheaper for them to buy the minimal insurance. Not bad, I say.
Don't know about effect on health services costs, but individual and group private insurance premiums came down.
So we the taxpayers got the rare opportunity to buy 79.9% of AIG for close to 1/5th of a Trillion dollars, and AIG is now tossing assets overboard, like so much floatsum and jetsum...
" burnside (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:45 am
HomeGnome, can't speak for programs yet to be implemented, but in MA service was provided for those who can't pay - and those who wouldn't pay got such a stiff fine, it was cheaper for them to buy the minimal insurance. Not bad, I say.
Don't know about effect on health services costs, but individual and group private insurance premiums came down."
Another feather in Mitt Romney's cap? Health care costs here continue to go up (higher payments, higher deductables for Harvard-Pilgrim, Tufts, et al), and since the minimal insurance required by the Commonwealth has a VERY high deductible, is suspect that poor folks are still going to the emergency room. That said, it probably did slow the climb of costs to a degree.
Another attack on the dollar from the People’s Bank of China. The PBC has repeated its call for the world to cut its reliance on a small set of reserve currencies(Read: the dollar).
In its annual financial stability report, the PBC said it saw serious defects in one currency dominating the global monetary system.
If this mumbling ever turns into a panic rush out of the dollar, the price inflation that would hit the U.S. would be dramatic.
Yeah, yeah. We understand. Get on with it already.
There will be no savings in government health care. The current ER system of no pays is charged off to insurance and cash payers. There is no pennies from heaven. Everyone is covered now. The only chance of savings is to drive down prices which will come from lower wages, reduced employment. The side effect will be less income tax the Feds need badly. The whole thing is a sham in front of you face. SS and Medicare are proof it won't work and the Government will have a new (tax) revenue stream and control.
"So we the taxpayers got the rare opportunity to buy 79.9% of AIG for close to 1/5th of a Trillion dollars, and AIG is now tossing assets overboard, like so much floatsum and jetsum... "
Once completed there will be nothing but a steaming pile of bad CDS and a whole lotta debt. I sure will want to know why AIG made good on the UBS and GS swaps, when this is all over.
I am curious those of you who are against health care reform- what do you think happens when the uninsured go from 46MM to 70MM? I don't believe that it will be possible to cost shift enough to the existing folks with health insurance without setting off a downward spiral in the insured. If we are in a deflationary environment no business is going to be able to afford to absorb 10% plus increases without dropping insurance or transferring that cost to their employees.(who are in no position to absorb that expense). Couple that with an aging population and more people going onto Medicaire which already does tremendous cost shifting and the ingredients are all there for a train wreck. Images of the financial markets come to mind.
Bottom line in the next couple of years expect to see a huge number of hospitals go under as the cost of uncompensated care sinks them. Those with insurance are not going to be able to get into hospitals and all the horror stories that people have tried to put out about other systems -long waiting lines- will be here.
IMHO Obama along with virtually everybody else has been completely dishonest about the problem. There is a simple truth about health care- technology increases costs not reduces it. Does and X-ray cost less (absolute or real dollars) than it did 30 years ago. Does the new imaging technology reduce or increase costs.? To the extent that medical technology advances faster than the overall economy it is inevitable that health care costs will destroy us.
Good to have man-on-the-scene view. My understanding of it relies on a few articles - evidently given the rosy scenario.
Seems to me the program is sound in concept, but failing in practice. I understood recent polls showed most in the state were critical, but a majority would vote to keep the program.
"CDC is now estimating that the novel H1N1 virus will be “Category 2” in severity. They are closely watching the situation in the Southern Hemisphere for validation of this estimate.
A category 2 pandemic has the following characteristics:
• Case fatality ratio of 0.1 percent to less than 0.5 percent.
• Between 90,000 and 450,000 deaths in the U.S. (compared with estimated 36,000 deaths during a typical influenza season).
• Excess death rate of between 30 to less than 150 per 100,000 people.
• Illness rate of between 20 and 40 percent.
• Similar to 1957 pandemic."
@ Crazy V
If we are in a deflationary environment no business is going to be able to afford to absorb 10% plus increases without dropping insurance or transferring that cost to their employees.(who are in no position to absorb that expense).
I hear the sound of helicopters starting up.
Where's the magic money come from?
from the last thread
Well I did my part to reduce my saving account and contribute to consumer spending. I bought 2 suits (which I had been saving for anyways) with a new CC that gave me 30% off something already on sale. I'll pay them off when the bill arrives and close the card. That was my annual wardrobe spending for the year and I'm ready for interviews when the state lays me off.
My dental coverage: Called all dentists in town, got cash prices for my 4-extractions and a new set of dentures - took the two lowest and made both my "last offer" - I now have new teeth at 1/3 the cost - no receipt was needed, no receipt was desired. Now THAT'S healthcare!
A pandemic is by definition not limited to the geography or nationality of a particular country. The idea that Canada or Mexico would be saved from a pandemic sufficient enough to render the US incapable of enforcing quarentines across the country but insufficient to render those countries helpless is ridiculous.
Having just reviewed the real pandemic plan I'll just say that the quarentine piece is a) scary enough, and b) enforceable.
In worse-case scenarios, 40% of the population is affected at any one out-break, out-breaks may come in multiple waves, and 1-5% of the population may die in any particular wave.
If you look at Mexico in particular, because of the poor health-infrastructure, and large level of poverty coupled with population density, it will be hit much harder in a pandemic. See swine-flu for example.
Canada will likely be affected just as much as the US. There will not be slack in the system for either of them to send surplus troops. They'll quarentine (or attempt) just like everyone else.
What people seem to ignmore is that in a worst case scenario, almost everyone will know, and/or be caring for somebody sick, and therefore most will "self" quarentine in their roll as care-giver.
That being said, I have not seen the details of mitigating food supply disruptions, although it is identified as critical infrastructure.
"crazyv (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:56 am
I am curious those of you who are against health care reform-"
I'm not against reform; I'm against government run health care. I hear stories about GB having lower costs and better outcome, but I NEVER hear that from someone from GB who's actually had to deal with the system. Most of this talk is from folks on DK who are simply repeating talking points and have no real idea about what they're talking about.
The problem we have with US health care is that no one with any real say in the matter has any incentive to lower health care costs. Not doctors, not lawyers, not insurance companies, and not politicians (check our opensecrets.org). Until there's an incentive to lower costs, we'll either see higher costs or reduced services (which is what really has happened in GB, etc.). Putting the government in charge is NOT the route to greater efficiency.
I'm not against reform; I'm against government run health care. I hear stories about GB having lower costs and better outcome, but I NEVER hear that from someone from GB who's actually had to deal with the system.
Why talk about Great Britain? If you want to get opinions on how well government run health care works, talk to anybody in the U.S. over age 65.
I know dozens of people on Medicare, and I have heard very few complaints about it. Most older people like the combination of Medicare and prvate Medigap. You hear health insurance horror stories and complaints all the time. But not generally from people age 65+.
" rich (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 12:11 pm
You hear health insurance horror stories and complaints all the time. But not generally from people age 65+. "
Actually, you do, and the prescription drug benefit didn't do much to quell that.
The banks that are "too big to fail" are too risky to break apart or put into receivership.
Yet, banks should not expect to receive money. Precisely as they have in the past - what
malarky!
Individuals that have loans should be accountable. But, not banks that get their debts paid
or forgiven by the government.
No regulations are proposed to break these institutions up so they're no longer too big to
fail - just more watching them - but, wasn't Geithner the guy watching them before as head
of the NY Fed? Doubletalk and lies.
Obama has no intention of installing meaningful controls. He's just giving bankers full
The banks that are "too big to fail" are too risky to break apart or put into receivership.
Yet, banks should not expect to receive money. Precisely as they have in the past - what
malarky!
Individuals that have loans should be accountable. But, not banks that get their debts paid
or forgiven by the government.
No regulations are proposed to break these institutions up so they're no longer too big to
fail - just more watching them - but, wasn't Geithner the guy watching them before as head
of the NY Fed? Doubletalk and lies.
Obama has no intention of installing meaningful controls. He's just giving bankers full
" To the extent that medical technology advances faster than the overall economy it is inevitable that health care costs will destroy us."
Then a serious conversation would require that it be clear that a good deal of medical advances made possible by technology will not be generally available. Heart bypass surgery, organ transplants, neo-natal care for extreme premies...all of that would be off the table except for those able to foot the bill privately.
I expect government to initiate this discussion when pigs fly.
I'm from GB, have lived in the US for 10 years. I have a PPO, good income so am in the 'top end' of medical care here. Was in an HMO for a couple of years.
While the NHS has its problems, I'd take it over the situation here in the US any day, and that's both looking at it as an individual and for the country as a whole. Standard of care etc is a bit better than an HMO, with no insurance hassles ever, no stress from payment worries - but everyone gets it. A PPO is better than the NHS but boy do you pay for it - and in GB you could do the same and opt for private health care and pay for it.
That aspect of the UK healthcare system is forgotten here - you have the choice, you can go private if you want and can pay/have insurance. No refund on the NHS payment though.
And this is me talking when I have no major illnesses to deal with - I've seen family go through that in GB, and what people go through here in the US. Give me an NHS as I get old, please.
My parents are with AIG
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Two flat out broke ones made a deal ?
Which political group is more fascist?
Red? or Blue?
Ummm.....going to go out on a limb and say RED!
Da Dawg said (pigged from previous thread):
"Wealth redistribution is not stimulus."
It can be - consider Alexander's looting of the Persian treasury, or Caesar taking Egypt's hoard.
This was large scale wealth distribution which sharply increased velocity of money and reduces concentration and provided multi-generational stimulus.
Which political group is more fascist?
Red? or Blue?
Yes.
They couldn't sell 'em to anyone else for what they wanted so they dumped 'em on the Fed -- grrrrrreat!
P.S. And it is a miracle that the Fed didn't buy AIG's 1.4 million sq ft of office space on Pine Street, surely they would have paid more than the investors who scooped it for less than $100 sq ft.
What will it take to let a failed company actually fail in this environment?
The color Purple?
I don't remember voting on this.
California may get a bailout AFTER they submit themselves to FEDERAL control.
Goodbye state sovereignty and constitution.
JP wins the contest.
I don't remember voting on this.
Your vote is of no concern to us, CONSUMER!
Wrong question. Since the debts are all being transferred to countries....question is what will cause sovereign default. That's a fun one.
No wonder Michael Jackson bailed out
This shit is going down with a depth charge trigger set to 666 feet.
MJ is like "you kids have fun, I'm outta here"
the USG's theme song should be Michael Jackson's "Smooth Criminal"
Going down like a $2 San Diego hooker during fleet week.
Kilroy-
LMFAO......
Query: Who stands to lose the most if California state government begins issuing vouchers next week?
Perhaps another way of asking it is - 'Who provides the largest dollar value of contract services to California state government?'
I am thinking commercial real estate, because of all the office space they lease. I would imagine contract IT services would also be huge.
Anyone know any specific companies?
"California may get a bailout AFTER they submit themselves to FEDERAL control.
Goodbye state sovereignty and constitution."
Seems like they'd only be making things that were already true official.
P.S. Happy Birthday.
Yeah, MJ touched the hair trigger of economic meltdown with his moonwalk.
Our education system has done well. Most Americans are not smart enough to be mad. Government is taking ownership of key business for a tax revenue stream and control. Maybe Jaz is more right then I thought.
Oh good. I was afraid of having to go to the private sector to insure my government made auto financed through a government bank.
Sorry to break this you but I'm thinking those 55 electoral votes just kinda might get in the way.
RD don't forget government mortgages and food! almost complete coming and going!
Zack Attack-
Well, the biggest places revenue is spent is the school system and prisons, I think, so think about who their vendors are (employees can't be paid by IOUs, so its the vendors)
lucifer whinged
I wonder how CRE in natural resource rich counties will do. Both canada and australia had huge CRE building sprees during the commodity boom. I hope they both go down the shitter.
the aussie govt came up with a plan months ago to save CRE from the shitter that has stalled over executive compensation
Rudd Bank may survive Senate setback | The Australian
New Zealand, whose big banks are owned by Australians who don't bother paying above minimum wage, learns to love the shitter
Receivers don't know if Kawarau Falls development can proceed | Otago Daily Times Online News
Nate, Thanks.
@ Bankers or Terrorists
Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement...
Weren't Constitutions such quaint notions...
Was senior secured debt in an admittedly wobbly AIG superior to a preferred stake in two wholly-owned subsidiaries? How was the valuation determined? Why does WaPo refer to these two divisions as 'crown jewels'?
Opaque to me. Anybody?
Home Gnome-
If the Feds allow California to go insolvent (whatever that means) the bond market will crash like AF447. So, bailout it pretty much is.
Heh...the Fed is going to be in every business...the Plutocrats have finally succeeded in total domination of the state and the people.
I'll say "RED" - because we wouldn't be in this mess if we hadn't pursued the Rand-ian right-wing/libertarian anti-regulatory policies of the past 30 years, particularly under Greenspan (who was just bleating about inflation of all things - Mr. 1.25% FFR himself). The Clintonistas were/are hardly "liberals", "socialists" or "pro-government" - Rubin, Summers & now Geithener have demonstrated clearly that they are Ray-gun/Greenspan style oligopolist plutocrats. Now that we've permitted "private" entities to capture the infrastructure of our economy, we have no choice but to save them...this was all baked in, decades ago. The RTC made that clear.
When will Greenberg be hauled in for Tarring & Feathering?
Alas, my government spork has no tines.
Sounds like an SPV shell game to me. I thought the US gov already owned 80% of AIG, so how does moving AIG assets to a new SPV and using shares in that to pay off AIG debt owed to the US gov really do much?
Did AIG write CDS on CA??
Ya gotta luv those Enron-specials 'special purpose vehicles'. Their special purpose is to hide outright thievery from those who read the financial statements.
Somehow, FED = Enron rings my Friday bell like it is VE/VJ day plus Bush's departure from POTUS. Let freedom ring, baby!
Ok, let's go with California Bailout.
What about the other 40 something states that are also insolvent.
How many states/ companies can we bail before the USD does lose reserve currency status?
And what is that going to do to the bond market?
Elephants and Asses
Trampling the Masses
Does it matter who steals from you?
Red or Blue?
The Fed can buy votes with an Electoral Vote Interim Liquidity (EVIL) Facility.
some investor guy (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 5:50 pm
Did AIG write CDS on CA??
AIG and California.....perfect for each other....
It would be a lot easier if the dynamic duo BB and Timmy would just publish the firms chosen to survive the coming economic apocalypse. Just let the public know which companies won the survival lottery and won't be allowed to fail no matter what. I know the free market dogma and religion is crucial to American self-image, but unless we are going down the road to the Orwellian 2+2=5 scenario, we need to shed it and come to terms with what we are becoming. It is clear we aren't going to federalize everything, but I am getting the sneaking suspicion that by the time this is all over the survivors will all have federal oversight and ties that bind. I suggest everyone stop bickering about donkeys and elephants. Doesn't matter. There is only one party, one company, one religion now....I never thought it would happen so fast.
good one, Cent.
OT:
Probably most notable is the screaming increase in overall program trading, from 30.7% of all NYSE volume to 40.4%!
Zero Hedge
OT-Marketwatch ticker
U.S. stock standouts are casinos and nursing homes!
jack staub...good call out...how does that work?
Perhaps then Cali can stop forwarding federal income tax $$.
First things first....... EVERYONE dies of "cardiac arrest" (a heart attack) - the heart always stops. Michael Jackson died of a DRUG OVERDOSE.
"Who stands to lose the most if California state government begins issuing vouchers next week?"
I remember seeing Japanese occupation currency from WWII. It looked like money.
Lobbyist Ben Dover (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:42 am
RD don't forget government mortgages and food! almost complete coming and going!
Coming soon; health care.
Our conversion to the dark side is almost complete.
California's U.I. has already rec'd a no-interest loan...the only reason it is still paying on the claims.
Ciao
MS
"HomeGnome (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009
OK, let's go with California Bailout.
What about the other 40 something states that are also insolvent.
How many states/ companies can we bail before the USD does lose reserve currency status?
And what is that going to do to the bond market?"
Yeah, but you're looking at it without the time variable. All 40 states you mention won't blow up on the same day....it will happen over time. Probably the hope on the Feds part here is that while states are blowing up, one by one, small eastern European countries start blowing up (Latvia, Estonia, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Greece) along with western Europe's banking system with owns those countries (oopsie!), therefore trashing the euro. I'll say it again: MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline.
And pushes oil and commodities way, way, up. Oil....the new reserve currency.
"Why does WaPo refer to these two divisions as 'crown jewels'?"
Probably for the same reason I keep hearing the phrase "leading practices". Marketing speak.
"Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement..."
Is that true? C'mon.
lama-
It's code for us sucking on them...
Ciao
MS
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout.
@ pavel
About as true as "rendition" to torture camps...
"Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement..."
Is that true? C'mon
Yeah I don't quite remember that line in the Constitution.
"Why does WaPo refer to these two divisions as 'crown jewels'?"
Because telling the masses that a company has been kicked hard in the family jewels leads to poor PR.
Pavel could make a killing selling how he survived the Great Soviet Union Collapse...
We can't go on this way. Can we?
"Pavel could make a killing selling how he survived the Great Soviet Union Collapse."
I wasn't living there, that's how. Just passing through.
Shouldn't stop you from writing it down, anyway.
Where in the Constitution is any of the BS the TPTB have pulled?
THEY will do what they want, when they want, and you; CONSUMER, will STFU and CONSUME.
"Rob Dawg-
"Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout. "
Actually Rob I'm working here in Dubai so I don't have a 401k. That was an easy bet on my part. Saw this coming in California in 2007 and decided I didn't need to be shipping portions of my paycheck to the state of California anymore.
And Dubai is coming back, for all of those about to make fun of it. Abu Dhabi is bailing it out and the stopped construction sites are moving again. I want to thank all my statesside friends everytime they fill up their gas tanks for bailing us out.
pavel, we can go on this way far longer than we like to think.
The final year of the Nixon administration felt very much like this - it seemed every aspect of public life had become foreign or unrecognizable.
I read that the Dubai gold market is doing well.
Surely its AIG gets into the Fed/Treasury business...
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 8:00 am
"Perhaps California won't have any electoral votes (until they repay the bailout)
All it takes is a presidential signing statement..."
Is that true? C'mon
Yeah I don't quite remember that line in the Constitution.
Snigger. He invoked the Constitution. Heehee.
Just the bottom line. California will get a bailout because the Democrats don't have an electoral chance in hell of holding the Presidency in '12 without California safely in their column. The very fact that they might have to fight for the State loses them as many electoral votes elsewhere with the effort. Personally i think the House could change hands in '10 if the Democrats bungle the California insolvency.
On the Jackson front
I think Kunstler said it best and I quote:
" It's fascinating to follow the coverage of Michael Jackson's death, but especially the lavish tributes to his "genius" and general wonderfulness. He was, in fact, a monster, and an apt reflection of America's extreme collective cultural confusion. He was a distillation of the lies America tells itself. He was infantile, grandiose, horrifying, and probably dangerous. His "accomplishments" as a grown man amounted to little more than a half dozen popular songs. The arc of his life may have been tragic, but it was a tragedy of his own making. His sudden end brings to mind a remark Gore Vidal made upon hearing about the death of Truman Capote: "Good career move."
A signing statement accompanies a Congressional bill.
An executive order does not.
In case you missed this from yesterday:
BBC NEWS | Business | Gazprom seals $2.5bn Nigeria deal
A little humor is always good.
Ciao
MS
". I'll say it again: MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline."
FYI, most Eastern European countries are not even in eurozone, not to mention most of money invested there went into meaningful projects. Dollar is DEAD man walking since you guys did not bother to take care of your manufacturing base. Candy paper flag country called USA is going down.
A view from the others side of the pond.
Obama's Mistakes: Chancellor Merkel Visits the Debt President - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
@ Cent RE: Executive Order
Thank you for correcting my error.
"Lobbyist Ben Dover (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:42 am
RD don't forget government mortgages and food! almost complete coming and going!"
When do we start seeing the lines?
I can't get this long-time favorite of mine out of head--wonder why?
YouTube - Guy Clark - Live From Austin Texas
shill - Wow.
My guess is when the retirees and unemployment (drastic unemployment) Flood social services that have no support.
California IOU's - Continental Congress IOU ?
Heck if CA can get away with them why not every other state?
Will be interesting to see the market in those IOU's
@Vonbek777: It's depressing, but yes, I think you've nailed it. I am sorry/sad to say that the Orwellian NewSpeak has been with us for a good long while now.
@shill - Hah! Kuntsler is right on, as always.
"Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:58 am
MASSIVELY trashing the euro. That pushes the dollar up, or mitigates the decline.
And pushes oil and commodities way, way, up. Oil....the new reserve currency."
If the dollar goes up in value, oil should go down, no?
crazyv (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 8:11 am
California IOU's - Continental Congress IOU ?
Heck if CA can get away with them why not every other state?
Will be interesting to see the market in those IOU's
I want mine in the form of a debit card I can swipe to pay sales taxes on all my transactions.
California will be bailed out and the market will rally on the back of it. Does anyone realistically think that if a single bank is too big to fail that the biggest state will be allowed to fail. Come on get real.
" Rob Dawg (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:59 am
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 7:29 am
reply ignore user
If this is possible I'm betting someone my entire 401k that California gets a bailout.
Ummmm... well... it's like this. You see... ummm it appears the government has already bet your entire 401k for the California bailout."
How'd you guys (and gals) get to keep your 401k when all I got left with was a 201k?
This isn't intended to promote conspiracy theories of a North American Union but here is some food for thought. A couple of years ago a retired army general was made the head of W's bird flu pandemic panel (can't remember the name of the general right now, drawing a blank)...anyway this panel was tasked with planning and response. There were high profile meetings all over the place and one of the things that was discussed was using Canadian troops in US cities along the Canadian border and Mexican troops in places like L.A. where large Spanish speaking populations lived. This would only happen if there was a pandemic and martial law had to be invoked. Rational is that there aren't enough US troops and National Guard units to go around in the case of a nation wide pandemic. Problem is US constitution. But a martial law coupled with existing emergency agreements between all three countries bypasses this issue. To my knowledge, Obama hasn't rebuked or dismantled this framework. I am not suggesting a conspiracy here. I think the extra troops would be necessary if a crisis of the magnitude war-gamed happened. What I am suggesting is that this is a sure sign of US decline. The US military over-stretched and committed abroad, can't meet the requirements of its own people in an emergency. Now combine economic collapse with flu pandemic in the fall. Just something I have been thinking about lately.
Looks like AIG was just un-officially NATIONALIZED.
More Fed Lawlessness: AIG - The Market Ticker
more money created that will never be extracted from the system.
what part of the Fed charter allows this?
JPMorgan, Citigroup Expand in ‘Jumbo’ Loans for Expensive Homes
JPMorgan, Citigroup Expand in ‘Jumbo’ Home Mortgages (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
By Jody Shenn
June 26 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. are expanding in “jumbo” mortgages used to buy the most expensive homes, helping revive a market that shriveled amid a three-year jump in homeowner defaults.
JPMorgan resumed buying new jumbo loans made by other lenders this month, after halting purchases in March, spokesman Tom Kelly said. Borrowers must have checking accounts with the bank, he said. Citigroup is again offering the loans through independent mortgage brokers, spokesman Mark Rodgers said.
" Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:18 am
........ high profile meetings all over the place and one of the things that was discussed was using Canadian troops in US cities along the Canadian border and Mexican troops in places like L.A. where large Spanish speaking populations lived. This would only happen if there was a pandemic and martial law had to be invoked. Rational is that there aren't enough US troops and National Guard units to go around in the case of a nation wide pandemic. Problem is US constitution....... "
Perhaps they'll pay for it with Ameros
" shill (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:19 am
Looks like AIG was just un-officially NATIONALIZED."
We and they are just realizing it. It happened to them some time ago, at the end of the Bush Admin. I believe. Citi and others as well. Welcome to New Think....
shill: you and Herr Karl seem to miss that the Fed is not a part of our government, it's a private bank
whether this matters is what makes for an interesting discussion
So if CA is taken over by the Feds, does that mean good news for the flag makers?....Go back to 49 stars?
" volker the viking (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:24 am
shill: you and Herr Karl seem to miss that the Fed is not a part of our government, it's a private bank
whether this matters is what makes for an interesting discussion"
Maybe our govt. is part of the Fed?
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 10:38 am
Uh ... yeah ...
Banksters 'Я' Terrorists®
AIG is swapping debt for equity. That's what should have happened to our insolvent banks.
Shell games don't address the fundamental problems afflicting our eCONomy. Shell games may be good for banks and a select few, but only at the expense of others.
Another sham. What a surprise.
I can't say I disagree with any of "The Obama Administration's Five Errors". It makes total sense. This was interesting:
"Obama has promised to introduce healthcare coverage for America's close to 46 million uninsured. That would be like adding a country the size of Spain to the US."
shill: you and Herr Karl seem to miss that the Fed is not a part of our government, it's a private bank.
Funny up to this point it seems more like a money laundering outfit.....Call it what you will, but it most certainly is not a bank.
Inflationistas:
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
lost-confused (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 8:26 am
So if CA is taken over by the Feds, does that mean good news for the flag makers?....Go back to 49 stars?
The 31st star just goes to red.
Volker,
I think people just don't get the Fed being a private bank thing. I have been trying to talk to people about this for years, and it just goes right through the ears. It's like the private citizens fighting in Iraq. Most have dual citizenship. The don't fall under military authority. They aren't governed by the US constitution or any agreements regulating the behavior of the US armed forces. They are truly free agents who can wreak havoc for better or worse. Whose interests do they represent?
"Now combine economic collapse with flu pandemic in the fall. Just something I have been thinking about lately."
Various war game have shown various things. Internal administrative control (whose?) seems to have been an issue. I've never seen anything suggesting introducing foreign forces and it sounds far-fetched to me. But I'm not an insider.
Opinion from a friend of long experience re Swine flu:
"This flu is killing people between the ages of 15 and 50 - those folks who weren't around for the last Swine flu outbreak.
At any rate, this flu is not as severe as the flu bugs of the past .... We will see the true consequences of the outbreak this coming winter - that's when this bug is going to wreak havoc."
Since when did you start believing that anyone is in control?
//Various war game have shown various things. Internal administrative control (whose?) seems to have been an issue. I've never seen anything suggesting introducing foreign forces and it sounds far-fetched to me. But I'm not an insider.//
"I've got my chickens (3.5 mos. till we start getting fresh eggs), goats, garden, etc., and essentially no debt."
Good thinking - Things aren't as dire when "well positioned".
As for surviving the Soviet collapse. I was there for a visit in October of '91, and I well recall that even people who were relatively well-placed economically were scared.
shill and cinco-x: nobody truly knows who owns the Fed, they won't reveal either
BSR: well positioned with both hands cupped beneath and behind your layers, don't wanna break any 8)
"Privatization" of AIG could not be more incorrect given that Greenberg's looted monster will only be nominally transfered to a private banking cartel called FED.
The payment will of course be made with the blood, sweat and tears of future generations of unwitting J6Ps.
Satan must be proud of his childrens' legerdemain.
I think people just don't get the Fed being a private bank thing. I have been trying to talk to people about this for years, and it just goes right through the ears.
Not a lot of folks around that can remember when a "bank" could provide private script, and that there used to be exchange rates for the script.
Now we limit only one bank to being able to provide script.
BSR,
The guiding principle in seeking standard coverage for those 46 million uninsured has been given a smaller scale run in Massachusetts. Rather than funneling those with no coverage through their preferred access point - the emergency room - and requiring hospitals to address the problem ad hoc, requiring some reasonable coverage for all who are working (as it was done in Mass) and imposing a significant penalty on those who have income, but no insurance, has brought health care costs down. Somewhat.
When almost everyone has coverage, it turns out indigent care gets back to more nearly reasonable numbers, and there are some net savings.
Vonbek777 (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:18 am
"... and Mexican troops in places like L.A. where large Spanish speaking populations lived. "
I thought Mexican troops were already patrolling US cities?
... so then who are all those hispanic guys running around with automatic weapons?
pavel,
I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites, but my primary source comes word of mouth from someone who sat in on briefings given to the President Bush. Again this was a war-game scenario. The agreements were put in place, but it was not an automatic contingency plan. There aren't troops waiting in Canada or Mexico to deploy to the US in the event of a disaster. A formal request would have to be put in place by the President, and it would likely take months to implement. There were actual constitutional scholars brought in to address the issue.
If everyone MUST have insurance, then what is the point?
Other than providing for some corporate profit and propping up the price of care?
Now, providing a service to those who can't or won't pay is a whole other issue...
Since when has reality followed war games and other gerrymandered scenarios?
//I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites, but my primary source comes word of mouth from someone who sat in on briefings given to the President Bush. Again this was a war-game scenario.//
"pavel,
I will try to find a press release for you. It was posted once upon a time on some military sites,"
OK, thanks Vonbek777. Since the last foreign occupation of the US - by a recognized state that is - took place in 1812, it's kind of hard to imagine. Confederate nostalgia may differ.
What?
China is refusing a Hummer?
BEIJING (AP) -- China National Radio says the state planning agency is likely to reject a Chinese company's bid to acquire bankrupt General Motors Corp.'s Hummer unit.
Lucifer,
Not suggesting it does. The point of interest to me, is that the planning and conversations were happening at all. Regardless of what everyone thought about W, he was very worried about a bird flu outbreak.
"HomeGnome (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:41 am
If everyone MUST have insurance, then what is the point?"
The point is to distribute risk, just like every other legitimate form of insurance (not those credit default devices that have been the source of so much trouble).
HomeGnome, can't speak for programs yet to be implemented, but in MA service was provided for those who can't pay - and those who wouldn't pay got such a stiff fine, it was cheaper for them to buy the minimal insurance. Not bad, I say.
Don't know about effect on health services costs, but individual and group private insurance premiums came down.
So we the taxpayers got the rare opportunity to buy 79.9% of AIG for close to 1/5th of a Trillion dollars, and AIG is now tossing assets overboard, like so much floatsum and jetsum...
OT-
IPO of Reit falls in debut...
IPO of Invesco REIT falls in debut - MarketWatch
Seems as majority owner of A.I.G.; we should at least have some say...
" burnside (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:45 am
HomeGnome, can't speak for programs yet to be implemented, but in MA service was provided for those who can't pay - and those who wouldn't pay got such a stiff fine, it was cheaper for them to buy the minimal insurance. Not bad, I say.
Don't know about effect on health services costs, but individual and group private insurance premiums came down."
Another feather in Mitt Romney's cap? Health care costs here continue to go up (higher payments, higher deductables for Harvard-Pilgrim, Tufts, et al), and since the minimal insurance required by the Commonwealth has a VERY high deductible, is suspect that poor folks are still going to the emergency room. That said, it probably did slow the climb of costs to a degree.
Could we slip this in on Obama's teleprompter.
Another attack on the dollar from the People’s Bank of China. The PBC has repeated its call for the world to cut its reliance on a small set of reserve currencies(Read: the dollar).
In its annual financial stability report, the PBC said it saw serious defects in one currency dominating the global monetary system.
If this mumbling ever turns into a panic rush out of the dollar, the price inflation that would hit the U.S. would be dramatic.
Yeah, yeah. We understand. Get on with it already.
When do I get my Govt gas stipend card from BHO ?
Boy, looks like the shareholders are getting hosed. Hey, wait a minute...
[The PBC has repeated its call for the world to cut its reliance on a small set of reserve currencies]
Well, they can start by depegging.
There will be no savings in government health care. The current ER system of no pays is charged off to insurance and cash payers. There is no pennies from heaven. Everyone is covered now. The only chance of savings is to drive down prices which will come from lower wages, reduced employment. The side effect will be less income tax the Feds need badly. The whole thing is a sham in front of you face. SS and Medicare are proof it won't work and the Government will have a new (tax) revenue stream and control.
Time to weed the Obama survival Garden!
OT:
Michael Jackson Quiz:
How many different drugs will Jacko end up having in his bloodstream at time of death?
I'll open with 14.
"So we the taxpayers got the rare opportunity to buy 79.9% of AIG for close to 1/5th of a Trillion dollars, and AIG is now tossing assets overboard, like so much floatsum and jetsum... "
Once completed there will be nothing but a steaming pile of bad CDS and a whole lotta debt. I sure will want to know why AIG made good on the UBS and GS swaps, when this is all over.
I'm going with 6
HomeGnome (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:54 am
OT:
Michael Jackson Quiz:
How many different drugs will Jacko end up having in his bloodstream at time of death?
I'll open with 14."
I'll see your 14, and raise you one..........
"I've got my chickens"
Good plan, you will have eggs to throw at the tanks when they come rumbling through....
I am curious those of you who are against health care reform- what do you think happens when the uninsured go from 46MM to 70MM? I don't believe that it will be possible to cost shift enough to the existing folks with health insurance without setting off a downward spiral in the insured. If we are in a deflationary environment no business is going to be able to afford to absorb 10% plus increases without dropping insurance or transferring that cost to their employees.(who are in no position to absorb that expense). Couple that with an aging population and more people going onto Medicaire which already does tremendous cost shifting and the ingredients are all there for a train wreck. Images of the financial markets come to mind.
Bottom line in the next couple of years expect to see a huge number of hospitals go under as the cost of uncompensated care sinks them. Those with insurance are not going to be able to get into hospitals and all the horror stories that people have tried to put out about other systems -long waiting lines- will be here.
IMHO Obama along with virtually everybody else has been completely dishonest about the problem. There is a simple truth about health care- technology increases costs not reduces it. Does and X-ray cost less (absolute or real dollars) than it did 30 years ago. Does the new imaging technology reduce or increase costs.? To the extent that medical technology advances faster than the overall economy it is inevitable that health care costs will destroy us.
"OT:
Michael Jackson Quiz:
How many different drugs will Jacko end up having in his bloodstream at time of death?
I'll open with 14."
Is that limited to prescription and class A substances, or do you include the herbal/new age/GNC stuff?
"
Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:55 am
Once completed there will be nothing but a steaming pile"
Maybe we can utilize this to fertilize the eCON.......oh wait!
Cinco-X:
Good to have man-on-the-scene view. My understanding of it relies on a few articles - evidently given the rosy scenario.
Seems to me the program is sound in concept, but failing in practice. I understood recent polls showed most in the state were critical, but a majority would vote to keep the program.
Why doesn't Government just outlaw "health" insurance?
What would that do to the cost of care?
And yes, if you can't/ won't pay, then no care.
@ Anon2
Can't throw eggs at trillions of little green USD suicide bombers, now can you?
@ Blackhalo
Any and all drugs included.
Even the JesusJuice
Pavel,
This talks about the beginning steps Canada and the US took late 2007/early 2008
"Canada, U.S. agree to use each other’s troops in civil emergencies"
I know some DOD sites had more info, will try to find it.
On the H1N1 virus, this link (on Denninger) to Utah Public Health yesterday was interesting:
http://health.utah.gov/epi/h1n1flu/sitrep062409.pdf
Money quote -
"CDC is now estimating that the novel H1N1 virus will be “Category 2” in severity. They are closely watching the situation in the Southern Hemisphere for validation of this estimate.
A category 2 pandemic has the following characteristics:
• Case fatality ratio of 0.1 percent to less than 0.5 percent.
• Between 90,000 and 450,000 deaths in the U.S. (compared with estimated 36,000 deaths during a typical influenza season).
• Excess death rate of between 30 to less than 150 per 100,000 people.
• Illness rate of between 20 and 40 percent.
• Similar to 1957 pandemic."
Guys. Really.
OT from an earlier thread:
How "green" is the shoot of a two month increase in Personal Income less Government Social Benefits?
Mirage of the Month Over Month frame of analysis - we are in uncharted territory with respect to the Year Over Year change in (Personal Income - Government Social Benefits) - not in a good way...
energyecon: Personal Income Less Government Social Benefits - YoY Delta
Yesterday was a horrible day for the Me generation.
Yesterday we lost a beloved iconic white woman AND Farrah Fawcett
@ Crazy V
If we are in a deflationary environment no business is going to be able to afford to absorb 10% plus increases without dropping insurance or transferring that cost to their employees.(who are in no position to absorb that expense).
I hear the sound of helicopters starting up.
Where's the magic money come from?
from the last thread
Well I did my part to reduce my saving account and contribute to consumer spending. I bought 2 suits (which I had been saving for anyways) with a new CC that gave me 30% off something already on sale. I'll pay them off when the bill arrives and close the card. That was my annual wardrobe spending for the year and I'm ready for interviews when the state lays me off.
energy.. a very mean graph...what would we do without our govt saviors....
My dental coverage: Called all dentists in town, got cash prices for my 4-extractions and a new set of dentures - took the two lowest and made both my "last offer" - I now have new teeth at 1/3 the cost - no receipt was needed, no receipt was desired. Now THAT'S healthcare!
vonbek777,
A pandemic is by definition not limited to the geography or nationality of a particular country. The idea that Canada or Mexico would be saved from a pandemic sufficient enough to render the US incapable of enforcing quarentines across the country but insufficient to render those countries helpless is ridiculous.
Having just reviewed the real pandemic plan I'll just say that the quarentine piece is a) scary enough, and b) enforceable.
In worse-case scenarios, 40% of the population is affected at any one out-break, out-breaks may come in multiple waves, and 1-5% of the population may die in any particular wave.
If you look at Mexico in particular, because of the poor health-infrastructure, and large level of poverty coupled with population density, it will be hit much harder in a pandemic. See swine-flu for example.
Canada will likely be affected just as much as the US. There will not be slack in the system for either of them to send surplus troops. They'll quarentine (or attempt) just like everyone else.
What people seem to ignmore is that in a worst case scenario, almost everyone will know, and/or be caring for somebody sick, and therefore most will "self" quarentine in their roll as care-giver.
That being said, I have not seen the details of mitigating food supply disruptions, although it is identified as critical infrastructure.
--bh
"crazyv (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 11:56 am
I am curious those of you who are against health care reform-"
I'm not against reform; I'm against government run health care. I hear stories about GB having lower costs and better outcome, but I NEVER hear that from someone from GB who's actually had to deal with the system. Most of this talk is from folks on DK who are simply repeating talking points and have no real idea about what they're talking about.
The problem we have with US health care is that no one with any real say in the matter has any incentive to lower health care costs. Not doctors, not lawyers, not insurance companies, and not politicians (check our opensecrets.org). Until there's an incentive to lower costs, we'll either see higher costs or reduced services (which is what really has happened in GB, etc.). Putting the government in charge is NOT the route to greater efficiency.
Cinco-X (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 3:45 pm
The point is to distribute risk,
The point is to distribute money.
Why talk about Great Britain? If you want to get opinions on how well government run health care works, talk to anybody in the U.S. over age 65.
I know dozens of people on Medicare, and I have heard very few complaints about it. Most older people like the combination of Medicare and prvate Medigap. You hear health insurance horror stories and complaints all the time. But not generally from people age 65+.
Coming soon; health care.
Our conversion to the dark side is almost complete.
Chavez is such a piker.
When the government takes over the Detroit Lions, I'm outta here.
When the government takes over the Detroit Lions, I'm outta here.
Now, there are somethings just not worth taking over...
" rich (profile) wrote on Fri, 6/26/2009 - 12:11 pm
You hear health insurance horror stories and complaints all the time. But not generally from people age 65+. "
Actually, you do, and the prescription drug benefit didn't do much to quell that.
Medicare D caused an uproar and mass confusion of red tape.
The banks that are "too big to fail" are too risky to break apart or put into receivership.
Yet, banks should not expect to receive money. Precisely as they have in the past - what
malarky!
Individuals that have loans should be accountable. But, not banks that get their debts paid
or forgiven by the government.
No regulations are proposed to break these institutions up so they're no longer too big to
fail - just more watching them - but, wasn't Geithner the guy watching them before as head
of the NY Fed? Doubletalk and lies.
Obama has no intention of installing meaningful controls. He's just giving bankers full
control. Replace Obama at the next opportunity.
he's right: Financial Opinions Updated Daily iamned.com why aren't our voices being heard by Washington?
The banks that are "too big to fail" are too risky to break apart or put into receivership.
Yet, banks should not expect to receive money. Precisely as they have in the past - what
malarky!
Individuals that have loans should be accountable. But, not banks that get their debts paid
or forgiven by the government.
No regulations are proposed to break these institutions up so they're no longer too big to
fail - just more watching them - but, wasn't Geithner the guy watching them before as head
of the NY Fed? Doubletalk and lies.
Obama has no intention of installing meaningful controls. He's just giving bankers full
control. Replace Obama at the next opportunity.
he's right: Financial Opinions Updated Daily iamned.com why aren't our voices being heard by Washington?
" To the extent that medical technology advances faster than the overall economy it is inevitable that health care costs will destroy us."
Then a serious conversation would require that it be clear that a good deal of medical advances made possible by technology will not be generally available. Heart bypass surgery, organ transplants, neo-natal care for extreme premies...all of that would be off the table except for those able to foot the bill privately.
I expect government to initiate this discussion when pigs fly.
Cinco-X
I'm from GB, have lived in the US for 10 years. I have a PPO, good income so am in the 'top end' of medical care here. Was in an HMO for a couple of years.
While the NHS has its problems, I'd take it over the situation here in the US any day, and that's both looking at it as an individual and for the country as a whole. Standard of care etc is a bit better than an HMO, with no insurance hassles ever, no stress from payment worries - but everyone gets it. A PPO is better than the NHS but boy do you pay for it - and in GB you could do the same and opt for private health care and pay for it.
That aspect of the UK healthcare system is forgotten here - you have the choice, you can go private if you want and can pay/have insurance. No refund on the NHS payment though.
And this is me talking when I have no major illnesses to deal with - I've seen family go through that in GB, and what people go through here in the US. Give me an NHS as I get old, please.