Johnny Cash - "I keep a close watch on my credit line... I keep my eyes wide open all the time... I see some deals that make me want to whine... Because it's mine.... My credit line...."
As an aside: My personal view is that in a financially literate world, almost all borrowers would pay off their credit card balances monthly (there are exceptions).
Really? Even if you can buy $5000 worth of goods and only pay $2500 for them?
I always pay off my balances monthly, but stories like this make me wonder who exactly is being "financially literate".
How will they adjust to the new reality ? Making on the transaction fees and perhaps a annual fee for the card ?
No more nice milking of the clueless for 25% monthly fees ?!?!
Their old business model appears to be crumbling. But then again people have a very short memory and will probably back to running large monthly balances when things recover, probably in Q3 ( ha ha ha ).
splat - kinda interesting interest rates are say 3% but a credit card charges 20%...what happens if the interest rate hits 6% do credit card companies charge 80%
There are a lot of people that have what I call 'historic' debt. They have long since paid the principle and a sizeable amount of interest back. They still have a balance because of the minimum payments and high interest rates. The CC companies aren't out any cash from the purchase and have already extracted a sizeable profit. Nothing wrong with everyone walking away satisfied.
So wait a minute... I've got at least $50K in credit extended to me (but carry no balance)... should I consider buying 10 investment properties in Detroit via cash advances and then defaulting? No seriously.
If you have good credit, how much is it worth to wreck your credit for a few years?
I would do it for $100k, maybe $50k.
-- yeah, maybe, but then you're stuck. if i get in a medical bind, i'll max out my cards if i had to. to collect a bunch of consumable shit and gadgets? no thanks. and isn't it like 7-10 years?
I usually concur about the credit payment and do so about 90% of the time.
But this Disney thing is gonna eat me up. Hell, the tix are the highest item and are larger than the car rental/timeshare/airfare combined.
This is gonna be about a three month payoff.
And this is seriously going to make decent "literate" people think twice about ruthless default. With this magnitude, I wonder if there isn't going to wind up being some coming reset such that the average credit rating will decline so precipitously that 380 will be the new 650.
I agree and have paid my CC off in-full every month for the past two years. Before that I really wasnt what you or I would consider financially literate even though I had an advanced degree and I think most people would expect those with higher education to be very financially literate. Granted I never ran up excessive debt, but it really was the internet, and blogs like this that helped me learn on my own about the finer points of our debt laden and controlled economy. I pulled back on buying a house, I still rent, and the wife and I (and baby) are only $2000 of student loans away from being debt free (we own our three cars and have a 6-month emergency fund).
I try to help others make financially sound decisions and I think its spreading. Thanks again for this great blog.
Can someone post a chart that compares the average point hit of a certain charge off, vs the expected cost of restoring ones credit rating - say 12 months after the charge off?
If you have good credit, how much is it worth to wreck your credit for a few years?
Why not? Consumer credit's pretty scare even with good credit. And the government is working to keep giving mortgages to non-credit worthy applicants. HA! Sad isn't?
Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 6/16/2009 - 3:08 am
CR just a little FYI IE does have some trouble loading the site... could be gov't interference.
Everything you type is routed through Sheila Bair.
Anyone read to the end of the article for this paragon of financial virtue?
"Consider Bedros Alikcioglu, a gas station owner in Newport Beach, Calif. He owed $112,000 on four cards and was paying $3,000 a month in interest and late fees. “It was so hard to earn that money, and paying it to nowhere didn’t make sense anymore,” said Mr. Alikcioglu, 75."
There's something very wrong with that value set. Like it's all backwards and slightly surreal. Like this:
Credit and debt are like the slutty cheerleader in high school. You spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to get her and end up spending even more time and effort trying to get rid of her.
C, it's sickening yes? I hear time and time again "but the bank approved it, so I thought it was Okay". Smart. Let the bank make decisions for you. Now, those same folks are looking to the government to make decisions for them. Thinking is so hard...
A friend that was foreclosed on about 6 months ago owed like $25k on an Amex card. He's stony broke and they'll never see a dime, so they've been trying to settle for like $5k...
Randy Waldman at Interfluidity has a long post in credit cards where he emphasizes points out that credit cards serve two purposes: transactional credit (if you pay off the balance each month, e.g. traditional Amex card) and a line of credit for longer term borrowing.
OT: I did a mid-June update of trustee sales for Ventura and Los Angeles county if anyone is interested in the how the pace of sales are going for June:
all these folks that lived the levered up lifestyle and are now defaulting are totally boned. all that crap they bought is getting old fast and soon they won't have all the cutting edge fixins that they need. sure, some will get zen and except their lower status in society. most will burn with shame and anger. most will say something like, "they gotta fix this mess, we're suffering here!"
i'll choke back the urge to say, "spend less than you earn, a-hole!"
I am really starting to feel like a fool paying off my student loans and mortgage. It is just un-nerving to see how disposable we have become where credit / money is something to throw away on crap and then just not bother paying.
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
It is just un-nerving to see how disposable we have become where credit / money is something to throw away on crap and then just not bother paying.
This could be one of those debatable issues of the ages: Which is more immoral - buying on credit and not paying it back, or shoving your credit solicitations down every throat in this country, including canvassing college campuses?
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
In maybe 4 years?
I just don't think people are going to go quietly into the night of living within their means. It seems like a gambler or drug addict, you just can't keep them from it.
"Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then..."
By then, we'll probably have cheap houses and high interest rates, and most people will be paying with cash.
ShadowInventory (profile) wrote on Mon, 6/15/2009 - 8:28 pm
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
Those of us with good credit aren't going to ruin it with RE purchases. There just aren't enough buyers without including a substantial number of these ruthless defaulters.
Outsider - or shoving your credit solicitations down every throat in this country, including canvassing college campuses?
Hey, they pay for the postage, I just tear em up and throw them out. If I had a pet I would use it to line the litter box.
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
If you're going to run up credit cards, why not get oh, 100,000 of your friends, all of you take out $100,000.00, buy swaps against your credit card company, don't make any payments, and wait for them to go BK. Collect your 90% or so CDS, pay back ten cents on the dollar through BK settlement, and get your other 10% on the CDS from that.
I just don't think people are going to go quietly into the night of living within their means. It seems like a gambler or drug addict, you just can't keep them from it.
Was the use of credit inflationary? I imagine the concept of supply & demand would mean that prices have risen as access to credit has risen. It's tough to live within your means when your means keeps getting smaller and the new credit-fueled prices are getting larger. It's a cycle.
A friend works for a hoity-toity Hollywood type that must impress upon everybody how impressive they are, is thinking of cutting back on their over-the-top Father's Day party for employees. Last year's festivities cost around $50k apparently.
Renting a Chrysler T&C for the week here in Orlando. Honestly, the best minivan that I've had has been my 2000 Chevy Venture. Looks like shit but is dependable and never let me sit, unlike my wife's Toyota Sienna.
We sold our Dodge Caravan in 2003 and it crapped out on it's owners after 85k miles.
Know squat about the VW routan, but like VWs for sentimental reasons.
Crossed a line. Made a crossover on truth.
With aid of...
Printing presses
off balance sheet and dodgy accounting
unrivaled MSM and confidence pumpers
It is a MORAL crossover. And people aren't fools;
they feel a new era. They have lost confidence in the totems,
tokens, talismans of a republic and the financial arm for which it stands.
If every means of hammering thin and stretching wide the little scarce value of true creation
were put to account and included in the price tag of the necessary goods, virtually everyone would balk.
Alphasoup Fed projects, deficit spending, the dark embezzlements rampant throughout the supply chain,
inflation, money supply manipulation, redistribution and transfer payments--If all were brought to the pricing bottom line,
Consumption would halt forever. But eventually it must be reconciled. One must win and one must lose in the new capitalism where everything is relative and nothing has an absolute value above the caprice of the state.
This is the robber and rust nation. Where all may break in and destroy on the hush, where every tangible can canker and corrode in an instant. It is gain by trap and snare, where any device above or beyond the law can be engaged in to force a newcomer into a ditch wherein he is parted with acquisitions, fined, and assisted for onerous fees.
It can exist only so long as caravans of innocents porting some treasure pass through. Without them the moneychangers, the mathematically cunning looters, the discounters of notes and souls have no meat upon which to feed.
"If you're going to run up credit cards, why not get oh, 100,000 of your friends, all of you take out $100,000.00, buy swaps against your credit card company"
That's a mean trick to pull against China, Mr. Geithner
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
but drug dealers don't have multi-billion dollar advertising campaigns either. marketing is very sophisticated now days. designed to pry at your every insecurity especially youthful ones. should really be called mindfucking, not advertising.
It is gain by trap and snare, where any device above or beyond the law can be engaged in to force a newcomer into a ditch wherein he is parted with acquisitions, fined, and assisted for onerous fees.
Congratulations.
You just described today's corporate work environment.
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
We all do, just watch TV for an hour and count the drug-co commercials. Lots of lifestyle enhancers, less than zero medical benefit. In fact worse because the lifestyle enhancers are simply sucking R&D dollars away from medical advancement and into making sure boomers will be able to get stiffies into their late 70s. Great use of R&D. But I digress.....
ED it looks like the 3rd parties are getting a little more agressive about collecting...
I don't have historic numbers but I would venture a guess that third party sales are at or near record numbers right now. The lack of inventory in most (lower end) areas of the market means quite simply they have pricing power. Unless the shadow inventory legend is true, that there are a mass number of foreclosed home that haven't been put on market, the investors should have at least several months of profitable flipping ahead of them.
I've looked at the records I have access to. While nowhere near scientific I quite simply don't see masses of foreclosures sitting off market. I see masses of potential foreclosures sitting off market... but with loan mods and massive political pressure against foreclosure.. That isn't nearly the same thing. Combine that with every single underwater/distressed homeowner out there thinking they will get a loan mod and keeping their home off the market... Inventory is getting at critically low levels in many area on the low end.
This is happening in many markets across the country. Especially the places close into job centers.. The outer areas and the high end are what are suffering most.
Why ? Free ponzi money that cannot be ever collected in totality. Indeed it would be stupid not to abuse them (especially in a world where pay does not keep up with real inflation).
//My personal view is that in a financially literate world, almost all borrowers would pay off their credit card balances monthly (there are exceptions).//
Meredith Whitney has been calling this for some time:
Credit card lines are being cut at an accelerating pace," Whitney said on Tuesday, "and this clearly does not bode well for consumer confidence or prospective consumer spending."
From its peak, she estimates that over $1 trillion in lines have already been cut from the market. One predominant reason she remains so cautious on the U.S. consumers and prospective consumer spending over the next year and a half is the overwhelming trend she sees in available consumer liquidity.
Whitney, a closely followed Wall Street analyst who recently opened the Meredith Whitney Advisory Group, has long warned of cutting credit card lines, which she described to Forbes as the "most interesting topic" she follows.
viagra is great.. even for guys who have no ED. It is incredibly good for lasting a long... time. try going 30 minutes.. then 30 minutes again.. then 40 minutes .... your partner might be sore, but that is her problem.
I actually do that a lot, I got in the habit after taking a PolSci class on the media.
I just don't suffer from that, at least I'm highly resistant, I have been driving my close to POS car for 12 years and am looking for a new one only because my car is quickly becoming a POS where it will cost more to maintain it than buy a new one.
Maybe it was my dirt poor upbringing, what I crave the most is financial security, until then everything else is minimalist, so I think I be a Spartan for the rest of my life because I really don't see a good way out of this crap.
I am currently laid off from work and am carrying a 3,000 balance on Discover. They recently moved up the payment due date by 5 days without a notice. I happened to catch it on the bill. I called them and explained that I had requested and recieved a specific due date to make sure I would be able to make my payment on time. I have never been late. The Rep. eventually changed the date back. I was told this would not change my terms in any way. The next bill arrived, interest had been jumped from 9.99 to 17%! Husband took over and rate is supposed to be returned to 9.99% . I am really getting tired of tying to play by the rules when the game is stacked against you. Oh, and for that person that wants to tell me how I shouldn't be carrying a balance at all. Of course, you are right. I also wasn't smart enough to take out a whopping HELOC to pay off my credit cards like so many others.
Thank you for the post and link, it is very interesting.
So do you think the next leg of Alt-A and Option Arms will be the last wave?
Or will rising un-employment and furloughs make a series of waves?
That chair retails for $ 5,486 after tax. If you're smart, you could get it for $50 at a flea market. This guy clearly isnt so smart. But I bet you he thinks he is clever.
I wonder if there isn't going to wind up being some coming reset such that the average credit rating will decline so precipitously that 380 will be the new 650.
For many leaders, it is hard to make the announcement that they will soon be passing the baton of leadership to their successor. The common fear is that if they declare their intentions too soon, they will become lame ducks. No one wants that to happen.
Almost every leader goes through this inner dialogue as part of the challenge of "slowing down." This fear, which often results in postponing the announcement about succession until the last minute, inhibits what could have been a much smoother transition.
Face it: When you are nearing the time to exit, you will become a lame duck! That is okay. Eyes will immediately turn to your successor as their vision for the team, department or company will mean more than yours. Colleagues who have encountered your disapproval for their pet ideas will just "wait it out" and re-sell their ideas to your successor. People will start sucking up to him or her the way they used to suck up to you
So our government takes our money and gives it to banks so that they can spend it on this? The system is rotten. I have already started to cash out my chips (dollars). Every day I get closer to taking my ball and going home for good. Cash will just be temporary storage until I can spend it on hard assets - no more stocks, no more bonds, no more bank accounts.
That 75 year old with 112k in cc debt who is blowing it off...Moral Hazard. Though I doubt the old goat has ever heard the term. Folks are getting the message that you just don't have to pay...and the "financially literate" is clearly the smallest possible segment of Americans.
Time for a War on Credit.
@OnlineBrokerReview
Don't know if you read my post a few days ago:
I am on strike against the system
Dear State of California,
I quit my job last friday (a full time highly paid position), so sadly I won't be able to help you with your impending bankruptcy. I will, however, watch the trainwreck from afar.
Dear Bank of America,
I have closed all my long time accounts. Try charging me for checks now. Good luck making any mortgages/refinances with the increasing interest rates.
Dear Fidelity,
I have cashed out all my 401k/IRA. Good luck trying to push more suckers into bonds from stocks.
Dear Chase,
Only integrity stands between me charging the max on all my credit cards, and declaring bankruptcy. That line's getting thin, too. The creditors can't call me if I'm not in United States.
Dear Fed Reserve,
I will be traveling in Asia, with my savings already in a foreign bank account, living comfortably with $7/day food and $400/month rent. Why work when the government steals your labor via the printing press, I ask myself. I'll just come back when hyperinflation prompts the american public to hang you from the statue of liberty.
excellent question, and one with which I would have to agree.
Also, wouldn't credit card company writeoffs be considered losses and therefore tax deductable, and, in effect, they get paid either way? Hopefully, it's not that simple.
Actually, the question is what have people got to lose by not paying their credit card bills when everyone else has already been deep-sixed financially?
I have been struggling a bit to meet my obligations. I guess whats at stake is my credit score and dignity. But maybe it's like that saying," If you can't get your dignity back, at least get your underwear".
June 16 (Bloomberg) -- The Bank of Japan raised its view of the economy for a second month as improvements in exports and industrial output added to evidence that the nation’s deepest postwar recession is easing.
“Japan’s economic conditions, after deteriorating significantly, have begun to stop worsening,” the bank said in a statement in Tokyo today after leaving the overnight lending rate at 0.1 percent. “In the coming months, Japan’s economy is likely to show clearer evidence of leveling out over time.”
Ahh you went full on Atlas Shrugged...good for you.
I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me.
I am going to stay at rental sponsored by the language school in Tokyo...
Sounds interesting one of my bartender's went to teach English in Thialand, it may be good to do for a change but I don't know if I would like to make it long term.
@shoulda - I'm sure a lot of us are tempted to join in the looting, but won't. I really don't know how people sleep at night after walking away from a mortgage or other debt, except that they apparently can't see the faces of the people their actions affect. It's not the big banks or CC companies losing - it's the savers and investors that are having their pensions and equity wiped out.
Bankruptcy idiocy...Judge rejects sale of Coyotes, move to Canada..."A bankruptcy judge has rejected the proposed sale of the franchise to Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie, who would have moved the team to Hamilton, Ontario.
Judge Redfield T. Baum issued a 21-page ruling late Monday afternoon, concluding the June 29 deadline imposed by Balsillie did not allow enough time to resolve the complex case.
“Simply put, the court does not think there is sufficient time (14 days) for all of these issues to be fairly presented to the court given that deadline,” the judge wrote."
Dummy! You only need a couple of days...the Supreme Court said so!
Will the recipients of CC company largesse receive a 1099 on their forgiven debt? I helped prepare returns this year and we had a couple people in this situation. One just threw up his hands and said he didn't have the money (for the additional tax) and that he was old enough that the IRS would probably not catch up to him before he died. So he didn't file.
Looks like we should prepare for more this coming year.
Scrooge, that's a nice deal you're getting in Tokyo.
In most of Asia you'll find that the income from teaching English will tend to track the level of local costs. So yeah, Bali and VN will be cheap living, but teaching won't pay. Taiwan will be remunerative, but will cost you (worth it, IMO). Watch the forbearance level of the var gov'ts for no doc workers, and get some certification if you can. Unless you get a real kick out of teaching, don't let it run too long. Tends to infantalize and corrupt the casual teacher. Happy travels.
There was a family in our town that lost a buisness. The wife and kids moved out, to her folks out of state. a few weeks later the husband was moving out. He went inside the almost empty house, lit it on fire, the shot himself in the head. He must have used gas cans in the garage because the garage door blew off and landed 20 feet away. Oh, and he didn't die. The wife had to come back to pull the plug. he was in his late 30's with little kids. The house is being torn down. This is why am so angry when I think of all the greed and theivery that is being rewarded right now.
I know that you have created this site for free and, of your own goodwill, given it to me. I know that you owe me nothing and I owe you for hours of fun and entertainment. But I also know that your web-foo is great. I therefore come bearing a request. You have given us the mighty "ignore user" features. I now ask of you... ignore replies to user?
Sounds interesting one of my bartender's went to teach English in Thailand
KK: Were you in San Francisco? Couple of years ago the local Irish bartender said the "hell with it, you only live once" and moved to Thailand to teach English.
I hope that the thai kids that he is teaching don't "tink" that "fuucking" is the correct adjective to precede all nouns in english.
Reboxetine is a funny drug.. they first developed it as an atypical antipsychotic, then as an anti-depressant.. and now for restless leg syndrome. You get the point.. right?
Pfizer is accused of “deception through concealment” and “cheating” in failing to disclose nine of 16 trials of an antidepressant, Edronax (reboxetine), in Germany. The German Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Health Care slammed Pfizer in a press release titled:
Pfizer conceals study data; Drug manufacturer hinders the best possible treatment of patients with depression
Essex Pharma was also noted for not being completely upfront about its antidepressant, mirtazapine, and the Institute praised GlaxoSmithKline in the same set of statements for providing a full database of studies for bupropion XL.
Pfizer’s refusal to disclose its studies violates its own published policy about studies. That policy states:
In all cases, study results are reported by Pfizer in an objective, accurate, balanced, and complete manner and are reported regardless of the outcome of the study or the country in which the study was conducted.
Youshouldaknowed, people often denigrate the "sheeple" for their shortcomings, and are pitiless to their plight, but stories like yours help to provide missing context and put a human face on the situation, however sad. It must always be remembered that we are talking about real people, and not some abstraction.
Thank you Barfly. That is exactly it. There is a lot of pain going around now, and many people do not deserve it. This was just a man with a family. Now if he'd have been a Banker, Broker, or Politician...... Well, he never would have done it.
In that regard, barfly, it should be EVERYONE'S first mission to not allow this thievery to continue. Do whatever you can individually to inhibit the FedGov and its financial partners from utilizing any of your resources directly or indirectly for their continued immoral and unjust gain. All can do it in a dozen different anonymous ways.
Yes, at this point my advice to my cash-strapped self-employed friend -- who has worked hard to be 'middle class' for over 25 yrs -- is don't pay the damn ccs.
Put those funds in savings (so you have some) and let 'em call you. Then negotiate, or since this is one of my strengths, have 'em call you back and let me answer and do the deal for you. Eliminates the emotion. (Maybe this could be my new sideline...)
There is no way anyone will be giving her any credit anytime soon, so who cares about the gd credit score?
Just sent her the link to this article.
I of course paid mine off a year ago, so this news brings no benefit for me (at this point). Though in my continuing pondering of paying or not paying for health insurance, this article is yet another push to the NOT side. 1k/month, I'm just saying.
BTW, I also got killed in state and fed RE capital gains taxes 'cause I'm single & sold the house that I'd owned for 15 years. No consideration of the fact that I'm a head of household, or under-employed currently. Wrote the big checks... Ah well.
NorkaWest -
KK: Were you in San Francisco? Couple of years ago the local Irish bartender said the "hell with it, you only live once" and moved to Thailand to teach English.
I hope that the thai kids that he is teaching don't "tink" that "fuucking" is the correct adjective to precede all nouns in english.
No this was a pretty blond who was smart and I'm sure will do well teaching, I also told her the Thai men would go nuts over her. I'm sure she is having fun.
Thai men are not stupid! White women are only considered a catch in arabian and black culture.
//No this was a pretty blond who was smart and I'm sure will do well teaching, I also told her the Thai men would go nuts over her. I'm sure she is having fun.//
During the '90's an long time acquaintance called me up after a long silence. During the course of the conversation, he mentioned that he'd run up $16,000 in debt on a credit card. How'd you do that? I asked. Gambing at a casino, he replied. But . . .. how did you happen to have that much?
He said that he just kept getting cash advances via the card. I think he ran up the $16,000 in a day or two, just gambling.
His mother (in her 70's) paid it off for him (he was a systems analyst, made good money but had no savings, naturally) on condition that he attend GA (Gamblers Anonymous) regularly. He agreed but told me years later that it was BS, he'd soon started gambling again. I lost touch with him not long after that for probably 7 years or so, but I suspect that his mother either ended up advancing his inheritance (so to speak) prior to her death, or that he rapidly ran through his share of her estate (which I believe was a good sized estate) pretty rapidly. Next time I heard from him he been unemployed, for probably 4 years, been on on SSDI for several years, and last year he got around to filing bankruptcy so he could quit making payments (or having his disability benefit garnished) on his credit cards. Never got around to or wanted to buy an RRE, apparently, & I doubt if he could've held onto it if he had. Says he's trying to get used to living a boring life (no gambling).
so, speaking of gambling, i guess i'm feeling pretty good about my moves last week - half of my dba into ung, sold 2/5 of the tbt, doubled down on TZA and held the FAZ, and, my best play, bought some FXP at the low....
Thanks; I should clarify that I'm going to the school to learn japanese, not to teach english. My grammer's horrendous I would cause more harm than good.
Great link on phase transitions...Crichton's Jurassic Park novel is a good illustration of the concepts, and a relevant analogy. The park builders are like the banksters/regulators who think they can maintain control. Once the power goes out though(i.e. summer 2007 credit crisis), the raptors and T-Rex get out and regardless of restoration of parts of the system full recovery to the pre-existing state is impossible.
The credit card companies are busy increasing the rates, lowering the limits, and closing accounts. So j6p isn't going to have any credit even if he keeps making his payments.
With all the underwater sellers out there how hard do you think it is to find a house to buy/rent/lease option, etc. How hard would it be to find someone about to have their car repoed and offer to make their payments.
If you are able to maintain an income I think you will be able to get whatever you need with completely trashed credit. Collections people will try any trick to guilt you into making another payment. You have to learn to tell them no, conserve your cash, and avoid using up your friends and family until they have gone away. You certainly won't get any gratitude for making another payment.
There are lots of educated, well informed posters on this website, but the majority are fiscal conservatives and many clearly have no clue what the world looks like from the other side.
So, I've just finished a full-time graduate degree. School was paid for through savings, but I needed approximately $30k to live on per year where I was located. The previous year, I was able to get that $30k in private student loans - no problem.
This past year, I needed that money about the same time the market was going to hell. Guess what? Loan declined! So how did I make it this past year? Prior to school, I had fantastic credit, so I had about $50k in CC lines at very low CC rates. We're talking single digits.
So, that's one way to rack up massive credit card debt. I now have $35k on my cards, THANK GOD the rates have only inched up slightly, although the issuers have tailored my lines lower, which does not help my credit rating. I'm into the high 600s at the moment.
I continue to make payments, and as soon as I start my new job in a month or so, I should be able to work out those balances to zero in the next 6-9 months.
But stories like this make me want to say the hell with it to the CC companies - come and get it!
There are lots of educated, well informed posters on this website, but the majority are fiscal conservatives and many clearly have no clue what the world looks like from the other side.
I grew up what most people would consider dirt poor, and most of my friends from school are in the same boat still. But I still can't see overspending, maxing out yourself and then just walking away.
Now for those who have never been able to save simply because they have had to spend every penny just to survive, finally gets a credit card and then have a medical emergency I can understand.
People who lived large off of MEWS, and rolling credit, have my despise.
Hey, despite a decent upbringing I certainly didn't start that way -- ended up in Chapter 13 as a result.
You're dead right about saying no to collections people. I wish I knew before what I know now. First item of business -- DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE. Get a machine, screen all calls, and never pick up for collectors, period.
landslide -
I had to drop out of Grad School before my final semester because the paperwork I filled out to take a six month break for the Reserves got messed up by the College, which kicked off my student loans, and they never contacted me. When I found out about it, it was over 90 days past due and I had a hell of a bill for fines, etc.
I saw my only option was to drop out and get a job that would allow me to pay my bills and live within my means. Different times, but hell it was only 14 years ago.
What if you make an all out attempt to start a business and it fails? Whatever the rights or wrongs there comes a time when you simply can't make the payments. You are much better off if you realize that early and face the reality while you still have resources such as friends and family.
The banks made a business decision that they could profitably lend to people with certain credit characteristics. The projected loss rate would be more than compensated for by the profits. So now they get to tell their creditors "Whoops, that didn't work out like we planned."
I must admit to a certain amount of Schadenfreude as I see them having done the same dumb things I did but with lots more zeros.
"Discovery channel has a show on now called "Pig Bomb" "
That reminds me. My buddy, an observant man with 4 kids who worked for the judge next door, started calling me "Pig Bunny", which he found hilarious. He walked in to our chambers and said to my boss, "Judge, you are a caricature of yourself", which contained too much truth.
I asked him jokingly if he had taken his medication that day, but he gave me a serious answer. So following traditional advice, I never ask that question any more unless I already know the answer.
After a job loss my spouse and I racked up $10k of living expenses (meaning groceries and rent, not jet skis or vegas vacations) on credit cards. Unable to pay, I looked into it and discovered I had bargaining power. It took me weeks of horrible phone calls. I'd play the passive aggressive, the credit collector played the sheriff threatening to arrest me. In the end I managed to negotiate our debts down maybe 30-35%, which at the time felt like pulling teeth. I felt like it would literally have taken a year of phone calls to get down to 50% off, although there is of course no telling if or when that would have happened. So to read that they now do 50% at the drop of a hat is stunning to me.
I got our debt marked as paid-in-full, but I did not know enough to do things perfectly, so I do have two negatives on my report that will fall off later this year. But even with those, my credit report repaired itself over the years to the point where in the fog-a-mirror days we surely could have HELOC'd or bought a house, etc.
For anyone in these straits considering doing this, you'll want to negotiate a one-time lump sum payment in exchange for the chargeoff. You'll also want to be sure to get the debt marked as paid in full, and, if possible, on good conditions - meaning there are no prejudicial statements in your credit report. Get a FAXED, WRITTEN offer from your credit card with everything spelled out clearly. There are a few good Nolo press books on dealing with out-of-control credit, and A LOT of total scams on the internet that need to be avoided.
Be careful. Take your time. All unsecured debt is negotiable.
mhdoc -
I remember learning a long time ago that if you find yourself in a hole, first thing to do is STOP DIGGING.
I have made many boneheaded mistakes in my life, and still do. I just try not to make the same mistake twice, and after dealing with the bank on my student loans, man I do not want to ever make that mistake again. Maybe I just learned early, which reminded me of the stories my grandparents would tell me of how they got screwed royally by the banks during the Depression.
There is still a lot of pain to come.
Thank you for the post and link, it is very interesting.
So do you think the next leg of Alt-A and Option Arms will be the last wave?
Or will rising un-employment and furloughs make a series of waves?
With such an engineered and interfered with market I have a hard time seeing the government letting it deflate. Option-arms will be modified where they can be. There isn't a solution to unemployment outside of forebearance though.
It is really hard to overstate just how little inventory there is in the affordable ranges near the population centers in CA. Much of it got swallowed up since December and very little inventory has come on.
Will the floodgates open, Short sales or foreclosures? Or will loan mods and political pressure win out? Transaction volume should plummet if the government "wins". There is the big lump of old short sales sitting contingent but not yet approved off market. Once those get processed through we will be in a very low volume enviroment unless something breaks.
Depressing to think about from a point of view of someone who was responsible and saved, but it is what the government wants and there isn't a thing I can do about it outside of not throwing my money in with the crazy people. This could just be the calm before the "storm" of a more controlled landing where the banks meter out inventory without letting it get out of control again like they did last summer. That is about as best case as I can see over the next few months, past that I've got zero idea because it all depends on political will instead of free markets or economic sense.
Effective Demand -
Thanks again, that is something to think about. I desperately want a single family home, but I don't need it and lately I'm starting to feel more and more like I should wait to buy one with cash.
Game theory says all debtors to company x should get together on facebook and agree on a percentage. Another percentage should be set aside to compensate those against whom company x takes selective action. The big boys do it all the time.
I am sure all small businesses have had multiple times when they thought the game was over but then something happened to save the day. A few thousand of cash comes in and suddenly the world is a different place. After that happens a few times it's really hard not to think it couldn't happen again. VERY tempting to do whatever it takes to buy time for the next miracle to happen
I think many of the posters here are woefully out of touch with how folks dealing with financial disaster, however caused, really think. I would suggest that might be dangerous to their continued financial well being.
For some people it's like that Kenny Rodger's song," You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold'em". On one level you know its time to capitulate but there is fear. Also, if you are married, both of you need to be at the same place in order to survive it. I have been lurking here for about 10 months and so often I have thought, If I'd only started sooner, maybe... But even with what I've gleaned so far it's hard to accept how bad it is/will get.
Effective Demand,
Confirmed the anecdotes I was hearing from work; my family hasn't done too much looking for a new rental place yet. I'm wondering if going to a trustee sale and asking to let me rent woul dbe a good idea...
Waste of time. They aren't really motivated sellers. Put an ad in Craigs list explaining that you are responsible renters who will take care of the place but don't have a lot of money and see who calls.
In the same basic boat I just will wait to buy when it makes sense. I fully realize that may be never. That old saying "The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" may apply but it kind of seems like "The markets can go be irrational and I will go be solvent"
Thanks for posting that.
I would go out on a limb and say that's almost on topic. We are talking about a major deleverage and lower standards of living for many people.
So $4,000 a month to live like a king huh? That is rent for some places like here.
From some of your earlier postings I gather house price declines haven't really taken effect completely where you are. However, why not go looking at some places and offer to rent with an option to buy at a price and payment you can afford. Negotiate the option for as long as you can, get some credit for rent paid as some or all of the down payment and see if you can get seller financing when/if you exercise the option.
If prices come down you renegotiate or let the option expire.
OnlineBrokerReview (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 6/16/2009 - 4:10 am
reply Ignore user
@Scrooge McDuck
Ahh you went full on Atlas Shrugged...good for you.
I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me.
Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?
mhdoc -
Hawaii is only starting to feel the downturn, but I already own a three bedroom apartment which I have paid off. It's OK, but there is the desire to live the lifestyle of having a backyard, being able to BBQ and Homebrew. Having a garage to store my junk in, etc.
It is not a need, so for the last 10 years I have just been thinking there would be no way in hell I would ever be able to afford a real home here. Now I have hopes, but the demand for security out weighs the desire to stick my neck out too far. That is why articles like "Retire on 500 dollars" catch my eye. That is less than my maintenance fee.
"But this Disney thing is gonna eat me up. Hell, the tix are the highest item and are larger than the car rental/timeshare/airfare combined."
Homedad, go on craigslist and rent park hopper tickets for the day. You can usually find someone renting theirs for 55-60 bucks. I did that when I went to Disneyland last December and saved over $200 on tickets for the day.
"I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me."
Did you see the language on page 3 that says "without prior notice, we may close your account at any time for any reason..."? Also, I think the interest rate is given as Prime + a percentage so if we get the inflation many worry about only 20% will look like a screaming deal.
"Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?"
But even with what I've gleaned so far it's hard to accept how bad it is/will get.
Step back, take a look at your life from different point of view, decide what you want to do. That story of the guy who deprived his wife and children of his company because his ego was shattered? Sad on so many levels.
How does a lease with option to buy constitute sticking your neck out? If prices go down you walk with no consequences, if they go up you have a good price locked in.
Not trying to give you a hard time, just suggesting you might consider re-evaluating your concerns.
mhdoc -
No I'm open to any and all options, just right now I have a place that is OK, just not great and it cost me around $700 a month with fees, and bills. You can't even rent a room in a house for that much unless your in areas I would not want to park my car in for 10 minutes.
Right now I'm able to save around 45% of my base salary which is good since I neglected savings to pay off my debts. Many argue with me about my priorities but I got to do what feels right for me and lets me sleep well at nights.
Right now I could most likely retire in 10 years, or buy a house and maybe retire in 40 years. Of course I may just move and retire in 5 years. Or at least stop working jobs I don't like.
KK, do me a favor and all CR readers the favor of explaining why hawaii real estate has such weird language to it. it almost seems like a mexican 99-year lease... what's the deal?
KK, do me a favor and all CR readers the favor of explaining why hawaii real estate has such weird language to it. it almost seems like a mexican 99-year lease... what's the deal?
Cuz wez be edumicated local style. (I speak two languages, Pidgin and bad english).
Actually There are fee simple, where you hold the title to the land, and there are still a lot of lease hold, where you rent the land on long term lease.
I actually don't bother reading the text and only look at the stat's and location, I just thought that was universal realtor's speak. Maybe I'm not nearly as clueless as I thought I was.
1 currency now -yogi - Isn't Hawaii a place where you want to be outdoors a lot?
If your not too busy working two jobs to pay the bills.
I think the last time I went to the beach was around a year ago, a work function, the command I work with had a picnic and I brought two kegs of homebrew. It's is wonderful when you can do it.
I know I have posted it before, but the best web site for RE on Oahu, (the main island) is without a doubt: Oahu Real Estate
Still 600K for small zero line houses. Jobs over seas is looking better and better.
"<<<<<99-Year Net Lease Worth $3.2 Billion; Richest Real Estate Transaction in New York History>>>>>>
The World Trade Center today became the richest real estate prize in New York City history as the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey reached agreement with a major New York City developer and an international shopping center operator on a long-term lease of the famous Twin Towers and other properties at the World Trade Center. "
What % of the population would you say is of Polynesian descent, what part Japanese, and how much land do they control, out of curiosity?
Wow, those are questions I have not even thought about for years, but without facts here is my take on it.
There is roughly 1/3 Polynesian, 1/3 Asian, 1/3 Caucasian. They do kind of group together from the plantation days so you have Philippine towns, Chinese areas, etc. Different Islands have different mix's.
The majority of the land is still owned and controlled by large corporations, home ownership is spread out well, but the Asians where the group that savings and building assets was a priority.
There is also the Bishop Estate, a trust left over from the Monarchy, as well as the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, both which control a good amount of land dedicated to enhance the livelihood of the few remaining Hawaiians.
In short, there is a good amount of land, but little open for home building and ownership. And even less critical items such as water to support too much expansion.
Isn't Hawaii a place where you want to be outdoors a lot?
My biz partners and I have a condo in Makaha Valley Plantation, they're planning on retiring there. Ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice,.... (Life's been good to me so far.) And yes, when we were looking at property on the Windward side, we snorkeled morning and evening and spent a lot of time outside. At night the damn mosquitos ate me up. (Daytime , too, in the valleys.)
"My biz partners and I have a condo in Makaha Valley Plantation, they're planning on retiring there. Ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice,.."
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
Makaha Valley is nice, but it is way out there, nice for retirement and much cheaper due to the long commute it can take up to two hours one way during rush hour and if there is an accident you can forget about it.
As far as race definitions go here, it's crazy. So many people are mixed you ask them you get a percentage listing that can last around a minute.
Headed to Israel in a few weeks but I don't think I'll get to the Red Sea. They let me scuba dive there once (off the beach) after about a minute of training.
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
Maile is the best for haoles out there, but Makaha has some very nice places up in the valley. The real problem now is ice, years ago I used to go to Waianae all the time and never had a problem. (I'm blond, blue eyes, full on haole).
I don't go there any more, you know it's bad when people from there don't go there any more because people are just crazy.
I have my gear buried, I have not been diving in almost three years now.
And I got to admit, my jaw hits the floor even now at times. A Polynesian / asian brings out some real fine looking women.
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
They don't like tourists. I can pass for a local if I don't open my mouth. And yes the beaches have families on them with furniture and kids doing their homework under canopies. But except for the rental car break-in (they got a cooler with a a couple of sodas) we've always met with good people, even my partners (who are Nordic looking).
Saw some areas in Honolulu like any other slums, places in Kaneohe that felt like tweakerville, and the center of the island can sometimes feel like the mainland, with better weather.
sdtfs - the center of the island can sometimes feel like the mainland, with better weather.
I live in Mililani now, I like it. There are also very nice parts of Kaneohe, and some of the ridge lines above Honolulu are very nice.
Of course Kahala and Hawaii Kai are over priced.
In the 80's I had a client who would max out credit cards. He said that the number was 15. When collectors would call, he would tell them about the other 14 cards and about his business that going through "hard times" (it wasn't, his business was good). He would then tell the CC companies that he would put their card into a hat and make a monthly payment on only one at the end of the month because that was all he could afford. Furthermore, he would tell the complaining CC company collection agent that if that CC company didn't stop harassing him, he would "take their card out of the hat" and they would get "nothing". Eventually they would settle for a 50% payoff, often in no interest installments. As you probably guessed, about one month after the last payment, the CC company would send another card which he would max out and the process would start all over again.
The change in the bankruptcy law was supposed to end this practice, but the invisible hand undid what Congress and the CC companies tried to do.
yeah but you wouldn't be able to borrow money to buy foreclose real estate then....
I have never carried a balance since college. I actaully went on citi's online credit card thing and requested an increase and they instantly offered me an extra $1000.
I don't see a credit problem if you are not a moron.
Of course then there are people like my idiot coworker just bought a used 2008 honda accord for $20k, and seeing as he's broke he borrowed the money at 13.99% interest for 7 years (which he thinks is cheap since its less than the 30% his credit cards charge).
I have told him he's an idiot. He can't stop himself. I would like tow rite a credit default swap on him, but AIG wont let me.
the other 40% are people who are ghetto or wanna be thugs and are over turning police cars after the lakers win a title. then i'd say about 20% are actual decent people.
I still love the place, if anything with that mix of people there's always something going on that you wont see anywhere else.
Jeebus, is this still going? Bacon drifting down the hallway...
Wire scan says Asian equities still in the tank, regional currencies slopping around a bit, Yen powering back and the antipodes strenghtening slightly, US futures back to kermit after a reasonable day in Yerp on German sentiment, will be interesting to see what kicks the US data today bring; housing starts, industrials, PPI.
Meanwhile, VIXy is putting on some beef, rightly so. UST curve bit mixed, UK goes all jelly-kneed and syndicates the gilt issue. Pathetic.
Ubernerd time for VIX trackers : there IS a Nikki VIX !!! Huzzah!
I did a contract stint in small regional bank in the mid-90s in their credit card department - it cured me once and for all of credit card addiction. I use them, and at times even carry a balance (one of those 14 months free!), but only when I have enough cash on hand and allocated to pay it off immediately in full. Gaming one from Chase right now. Given that the rules will be rewritten at in the leadup to the new legislation, I'm preparing to clear it and close that and the AMEX. Only two I have. Somewhat shocked that my limits have remained in the stratosphere - I pay too well. I'm guessing I'll have to evaluate the fee thing and perhaps just carry one after the reform takes effect and the new product lines gel.
"Obama will call for the creation of a new financial watchdog agency. Its mission will be to protect consumers from deceptive or dangerous mortgages, credit cards and other financial products. Proponents have dubbed it a "financial products safety commission" akin to the federal agency that oversees safety of toys and other products.......the only [new agency] that so far the banking industry uniformly doesn't like.
........another Mommy Agency. Now we won't even have to read what we sign. I now rest assured in the "we are from the government - we are here to help" motto. A governmental GPS for the financially wayward.
........"Hi! I'm BSR and I am a "Chargaholic". I've been clean and debt free for 15-years."
This Administration is setting itself up for the mother of all Constitutional crises. A majority centrist Court and a compliant Congress giving free reign is a formula for snapback like Roosevelt saw with his New Deal.
Yeah, liberal republican is part of the current centrist court. Some of the republican nominees have proven less far right as they were assumed and/or portrayed early in their tenures. Regardless, what we don't have are any strict interpreters of which we are in desperate need IMO.
California Is Denied Federal Aid The Obama administration has turned back pleas for emergency aid from one of the biggest remaining threats to the economy -- the state of California.
Top state officials have gone hat in hand to the administration, armed with dire warnings of a fast-approaching "fiscal meltdown" caused by a budget shortfall. Concern has grown inside the White House in recent weeks as California's fiscal condition has worsened, leading to high-level administration meetings. But federal officials are worried that a bailout of California would set off a cascade of demands from other states....
After a series of meetings, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, top White House economists Lawrence Summers and Christina Romer, and other senior officials have decided that California could hold on a little longer and should get its budget in order rather than rely on a federal bailout.
These policymakers continue to watch the situation closely and do not rule out helping the state if its condition significantly deteriorates, a senior administration official said. But in that case, federal help would carry conditions to protect taxpayers and make similar requests for aid unattractive to other states, the official said. The official did not detail those conditions.
Well, something of a more important nature occurred yesterday - BSR's #1 rooster "Big Red" got his ass handed to him all day yesterday by "Gray" - formerly known as the #1 Contender. He apparently had had his fill of Big Red being a total pain in the butt - and attempted and succeeded in kicking Red's ass all over the entire Ranch. "Gray" is half the size of "Red" and just outmaneuvered him while spurring and pecking like a rooster on steroids. Yep - a new bad-ass in town - his crow even sounds more ferocious now.
Can you tell we live in a simpler place here? ROFL
If anyone remains curious as to how generations so idealistic in their undergraduate years become so corrupt a few decades on, just look above and witness the first stages of the transformation.
Elections have been stolen or bought and paid for here in the states, no difference really.
And why is Letterman apologizing to Sara Palin?...who cares what that silver spoon feed dolt thinks she is just a governor of Alaska not the queen of the land.
I live in a simple place surrounded by simple people. When I try to give them some facts about the financial situation they get a thousand meter stare.
When I explain that Iran is about to implode/explode they insist they haven't been keeping up, but they wish Israel would go ahead and do something.
When I ask how things are they say, "I'm blessed, so very blessed." Then they wander off.
BTW: One needn't get dressed up for a Wallie World outing. I found this out the other day. Next time I'm going with the sweat pants, T top and flip-flops. Maybe eat some donuts while I'm there. Is it true that if you eat it in the store it isn't stealing?
yogi - there hasn't been a true conservative for decades. ALL have shown a propensity to BIG government and BIG spending. SMALL central government, NO federal deficit, LOWER federal budget - find me one like THAT - it doesn't matter from which side of the aisle he/she/it comes ....
Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito and Kennedy are by no means centrists. No two people agree on exactly which positions are left or right on a given legal issue, in any event.
And why is Letterman apologizing to Sara Palin?...who cares what that silver spoon feed dolt thinks she is just a governor of Alaska not the queen of the land.
Maybe he's seen the memo that she will be next POTUS...and is getting his sucking up in early.
Private property rights...wait til you see what Sotomayor does to those...she expanded on the Kelo vs New London case in a land grab with crooked pols...
@Not One Cent
"Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?"
I called them to ask them that. They responded that it was a "business decision." I asked what kind of business decision doubles the interest rate on a customer who has paid his card off in full every month and has a 734 credit score? They did not answer.
@mhdoc
"Did you see the language on page 3 that says "without prior notice, we may close your account at any time for any reason..."? Also, I think the interest rate is given as Prime + a percentage so if we get the inflation many worry about only 20% will look like a screaming deal."
You missed the point entirely. I don't pay interest so it does not really affect me. The point is that their business model is garbage and they are making me (a taxpayer) finance their lunacy. They all deserve to go bust. Instead, they take money out of my pocket to pay for the money they lost loaning it to deadbeats and I am rightly sick of it.
It is quite a shift indeed to have the credit card providers agree to settle for half the amount the delinquents have to pay. I think this is good news for those who owe money but before they celebrate they should check what ramification this will have on their credit score.
If you're a tenant, a lease option is almost never a good idea. But in the present period it can be a disaster. Usually a tenant puts up $5-20K in option money and pays an increased rent to the landlord in exchange for a set sale price at the end of the option period. If the sale price agreed on is greater than the market price, however, the tenant will not be able to obtain a mortgage for the sale price (having already paid something that's supposed to be a "down payment") and will have to raise additional money to exercise the option. More importantly, however, many landlords who are facing foreclosure are offering lease options in order to get the option money and increased rent. Unless you've drawn the agreement very carefully and the landlord still has money, you may never see your option money again. I've had several tenants tell me that they were offered lease options on properties that very soon thereafter went into foreclosure.
Nice points, along with the point that contracts seem to be being ripped up when push comes to shove now days.
Right now I'm pretty happy trusting no one and building up my reserves to fight another day so to speak.
NorkaWest:
Are these people using "Vertical Integration" in some nonstandard way? Or is there some structure that they are describing that isn't obvious to laymen?
Vertically Integrated companies are those which own multiple stages of the production process. Example: Mine -> Smelter -> Castings -> Sales. That chain can involve four companies (not vertically integrated) or less than four (in which case one or more is vertically integrated). These people are talking about international trade as a vertically integrated stucture, which makes no sense. Are they claiming that an Apple manufacturing plant in Singapore feeding Apple sales in the US is still vertical integration, but somehow exposed internationally? Any help with interpretation is appreciated.
Or they would max out their credit cards to buy gold, scotch, and ammo, and not bother paying.
"a line has been crossed"
We passed that line going 90 mph about 2 miles ago.
a line has been crossed, what sort of line?
I presume that was the credit line that was crossed...
I'm waiting for the write offs to go a full 50% before I throw in the towel on my credit card debts.
CR you think all this "settling" has something to do with unlimited access to TARP funds?
Hopefully he did not run up credit card debt buying that hideous chair.
had a brand new card rejected this very day on a 36 dollar transaction...
but hey, we're all not trying to sell a filter.
I think we'll do better than 50%
a Maginot line?
it 9, im done....
sure wish elvis would run me off.....
Johnny Cash - "I keep a close watch on my credit line... I keep my eyes wide open all the time... I see some deals that make me want to whine... Because it's mine.... My credit line...."
maybe an imaginot line
As an aside: My personal view is that in a financially literate world, almost all borrowers would pay off their credit card balances monthly (there are exceptions).
Really? Even if you can buy $5000 worth of goods and only pay $2500 for them?
I always pay off my balances monthly, but stories like this make me wonder who exactly is being "financially literate".
I'm expecting the Fed to backstop these losses once they become to egregious. Afterall, if the consumer economy falters so does the amerikan dream.
How will they adjust to the new reality ? Making on the transaction fees and perhaps a annual fee for the card ?
No more nice milking of the clueless for 25% monthly fees ?!?!
Their old business model appears to be crumbling. But then again people have a very short memory and will probably back to running large monthly balances when things recover, probably in Q3 ( ha ha ha ).
A line of ground up CDO paper? I heard that stuff is hell on your sinuses.
literate v savvy
If you have good credit, how much is it worth to wreck your credit for a few years?
I would do it for $100k, maybe $50k.
Bail out all the CC's ! Capital one is too big to fail !
Discovery channel has a show on now called "Pig Bomb"
splat - kinda interesting interest rates are say 3% but a credit card charges 20%...what happens if the interest rate hits 6% do credit card companies charge 80%
ah, the McClelland line
There are a lot of people that have what I call 'historic' debt. They have long since paid the principle and a sizeable amount of interest back. They still have a balance because of the minimum payments and high interest rates. The CC companies aren't out any cash from the purchase and have already extracted a sizeable profit. Nothing wrong with everyone walking away satisfied.
CR just a little FYI IE does have some trouble loading the site... could be gov't interference.
So wait a minute... I've got at least $50K in credit extended to me (but carry no balance)... should I consider buying 10 investment properties in Detroit via cash advances and then defaulting? No seriously.
Barley: of course, they will press the envelope
If you have good credit, how much is it worth to wreck your credit for a few years?
I would do it for $100k, maybe $50k.
-- yeah, maybe, but then you're stuck. if i get in a medical bind, i'll max out my cards if i had to. to collect a bunch of consumable shit and gadgets? no thanks. and isn't it like 7-10 years?
Pig Bombs.........
Pig Bomb: Hog Hunting : Video : Discovery Channel Channel
CR:
I usually concur about the credit payment and do so about 90% of the time.
But this Disney thing is gonna eat me up. Hell, the tix are the highest item and are larger than the car rental/timeshare/airfare combined.
This is gonna be about a three month payoff.
And this is seriously going to make decent "literate" people think twice about ruthless default. With this magnitude, I wonder if there isn't going to wind up being some coming reset such that the average credit rating will decline so precipitously that 380 will be the new 650.
Hal
wait for 15k tax credit for housing buy a foreclosure make min payments for six months than walkaway.
bobbi (profile) wrote on Tue, 6/16/2009 - 3:02 am
a line has been crossed, what sort of line?
We erased the line between credits and debits a long time ago.
All hail single-entry bookkeeping.
buy 100k worth of gold. default. repeat every 3 years. How do you think I get to have a gold bank full of gold coins?
"should I consider buying 10 investment properties in Detroit via cash advances and then defaulting? No seriously."
Yes - we have discussed walking away...go for it...a few years of poor credit will shadow the profit you can extract
CR,
I agree and have paid my CC off in-full every month for the past two years. Before that I really wasnt what you or I would consider financially literate even though I had an advanced degree and I think most people would expect those with higher education to be very financially literate. Granted I never ran up excessive debt, but it really was the internet, and blogs like this that helped me learn on my own about the finer points of our debt laden and controlled economy. I pulled back on buying a house, I still rent, and the wife and I (and baby) are only $2000 of student loans away from being debt free (we own our three cars and have a 6-month emergency fund).
I try to help others make financially sound decisions and I think its spreading. Thanks again for this great blog.
M
Can someone post a chart that compares the average point hit of a certain charge off, vs the expected cost of restoring ones credit rating - say 12 months after the charge off?
New grassroots industry?
Uncle CR - tell us some more about "a financially literate world."
If you have good credit, how much is it worth to wreck your credit for a few years?
Why not? Consumer credit's pretty scare even with good credit. And the government is working to keep giving mortgages to non-credit worthy applicants. HA! Sad isn't?
M
+100
Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote on Tue, 6/16/2009 - 3:08 am
CR just a little FYI IE does have some trouble loading the site... could be gov't interference.
Everything you type is routed through Sheila Bair.
Anyone read to the end of the article for this paragon of financial virtue?
"Consider Bedros Alikcioglu, a gas station owner in Newport Beach, Calif. He owed $112,000 on four cards and was paying $3,000 a month in interest and late fees. “It was so hard to earn that money, and paying it to nowhere didn’t make sense anymore,” said Mr. Alikcioglu, 75."
There's something very wrong with that value set. Like it's all backwards and slightly surreal. Like this:
YouTube - twin peaks dancing
C
Easy come ... easy go ...
$2500 of that bill was probably late and penalty fees ...
Delinquent Credit Card bills that default are great places for CC companies to add
thousands in charges they KNOW they will never collect ...
Credit and debt are like the slutty cheerleader in high school. You spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to get her and end up spending even more time and effort trying to get rid of her.
Okay a new alternative: Surgical BK for all CC balance holders - woho!
M:
Good for you.
My wife complains that every time she wants to do something, all I do is say "no" and talk about money.
Works for me.
Also, the car we rented is a Chrysler T&C minivan and it's nothing to write home about.
Fortunately, I hear the 2011 model is slated to have an espresso machine and pasta maker.
stories like this make me wonder who exactly is being "financially literate".
Me too. Levering up to buy gold and then going BK sounds like a winner.
Me paying all my bills on time every month feels like a sucker.
Dawg- you owe me a new keyboard
C, it's sickening yes? I hear time and time again "but the bank approved it, so I thought it was Okay". Smart. Let the bank make decisions for you. Now, those same folks are looking to the government to make decisions for them. Thinking is so hard...
Try popping off one of the keys of your keyboard and look underneath... You might not ever touch one again...
"Fortunately, I hear the 2011 model is slated to have an espresso machine and pasta maker."
~~~~
The 2012 model will have a kitchenette and bathroom to qualify for an FHA loan ...
Unless you're buying gold online, I don't think that you can do it.
The PM dealer that I use won't take credit because he's charged a higher merchant fee than other retailers. Cash or check only.
rob dawg wrote: "Credit and debt are like the slutty cheerleader in high school."
//
I wish you'd stop chipping on my friends.
And also he is skimming...
A friend that was foreclosed on about 6 months ago owed like $25k on an Amex card. He's stony broke and they'll never see a dime, so they've been trying to settle for like $5k...
But then most of his customers are buying with skimmed cash too...
lots of places online that sells gold take credit card. Just off top of my head: apmex.com, pandaamerica.com, goldeneaglecoins.com
Pig Bombs.........
Pig Bomb: Hog Hunting : Video : Discovery Channel Channel
Go, Razorbacks!
Barley (profile) wrote on Mon, 6/15/2009 - 8:16 pm
Dawg- you owe me a new keyboard
Seeing as I'm in Canada at the moment I don't think you want one that inserts an 'eh?' at the end of every sentence eh?
JD:
How in the hell does one run up $25k on an Amex?
Sweet Jesus.
That's hookers and blow territory.
How in the hell does one run up $25k on an Amex?
Buying slutty cheerleaders online...
The PM dealer that I use won't take credit
Same with mine.
Randy Waldman at Interfluidity has a long post in credit cards where he emphasizes points out that credit cards serve two purposes: transactional credit (if you pay off the balance each month, e.g. traditional Amex card) and a line of credit for longer term borrowing.
interfluidity
I don't think you want one that inserts an 'eh?' at the end of every sentence eh?
Wee, monsieur
homedad43
How in the hell does one run up $25k on an Amex?
Sweet Jesus.
That's hookers and blow territory.
Or a trip to the Doctors.
Homedad,
You leased a new T&C?
The T&C really worth it over the dodge caravan?
I looked at the Routan since I like VW's, but that decision by VW was a disaster. Rebaged Dodge with no meaningful improvement.
OT: I did a mid-June update of trustee sales for Ventura and Los Angeles county if anyone is interested in the how the pace of sales are going for June:
Effective Demand: Foreclosure update for Los Angeles and Ventura County Mid-June 2009
A lot of places that sell gold will take CC - they just tack on another 3% to the price.
all these folks that lived the levered up lifestyle and are now defaulting are totally boned. all that crap they bought is getting old fast and soon they won't have all the cutting edge fixins that they need. sure, some will get zen and except their lower status in society. most will burn with shame and anger. most will say something like, "they gotta fix this mess, we're suffering here!"
i'll choke back the urge to say, "spend less than you earn, a-hole!"
I am really starting to feel like a fool paying off my student loans and mortgage. It is just un-nerving to see how disposable we have become where credit / money is something to throw away on crap and then just not bother paying.
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
ED it looks like the 3rd parties are getting a little more agressive about collecting...
It is just un-nerving to see how disposable we have become where credit / money is something to throw away on crap and then just not bother paying.
This could be one of those debatable issues of the ages: Which is more immoral - buying on credit and not paying it back, or shoving your credit solicitations down every throat in this country, including canvassing college campuses?
That's a toughie.
50% off is way better than collecting airline miles.
ShadowInventory -
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
In maybe 4 years?
I just don't think people are going to go quietly into the night of living within their means. It seems like a gambler or drug addict, you just can't keep them from it.
"Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then..."
By then, we'll probably have cheap houses and high interest rates, and most people will be paying with cash.
ShadowInventory (profile) wrote on Mon, 6/15/2009 - 8:28 pm
Wait until RE prices turn up and all of a sudden a good credit score will be valuable then... All of those walkers are really going to be singing the blues then...
Those of us with good credit aren't going to ruin it with RE purchases. There just aren't enough buyers without including a substantial number of these ruthless defaulters.
Outsider - or shoving your credit solicitations down every throat in this country, including canvassing college campuses?
Hey, they pay for the postage, I just tear em up and throw them out. If I had a pet I would use it to line the litter box.
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
If you're going to run up credit cards, why not get oh, 100,000 of your friends, all of you take out $100,000.00, buy swaps against your credit card company, don't make any payments, and wait for them to go BK. Collect your 90% or so CDS, pay back ten cents on the dollar through BK settlement, and get your other 10% on the CDS from that.
I'm finally seeing yacht prices peak and some great deals on yachtworld.com
A lot of paper millionaires found out the true value of debt.
I just don't think people are going to go quietly into the night of living within their means. It seems like a gambler or drug addict, you just can't keep them from it.
Was the use of credit inflationary? I imagine the concept of supply & demand would mean that prices have risen as access to credit has risen. It's tough to live within your means when your means keeps getting smaller and the new credit-fueled prices are getting larger. It's a cycle.
A friend works for a hoity-toity Hollywood type that must impress upon everybody how impressive they are, is thinking of cutting back on their over-the-top Father's Day party for employees. Last year's festivities cost around $50k apparently.
homedad43
How in the hell does one run up $25k on an Amex?
Sweet Jesus.
That's hookers and blow territory.
We do twice that amount each month.
We use Amex as our company credit card for all of business travel, conferences, marketing reprints, etc.
We also pay off the balance each month.
NW
M:
Not leasing, as in three year deal.
Renting a Chrysler T&C for the week here in Orlando. Honestly, the best minivan that I've had has been my 2000 Chevy Venture. Looks like shit but is dependable and never let me sit, unlike my wife's Toyota Sienna.
We sold our Dodge Caravan in 2003 and it crapped out on it's owners after 85k miles.
Know squat about the VW routan, but like VWs for sentimental reasons.
Think what this practice does to reported delinquency rates then go read 10Qs
Crossed a line. Made a crossover on truth.
With aid of...
Printing presses
off balance sheet and dodgy accounting
unrivaled MSM and confidence pumpers
It is a MORAL crossover. And people aren't fools;
they feel a new era. They have lost confidence in the totems,
tokens, talismans of a republic and the financial arm for which it stands.
If every means of hammering thin and stretching wide the little scarce value of true creation
were put to account and included in the price tag of the necessary goods, virtually everyone would balk.
Alphasoup Fed projects, deficit spending, the dark embezzlements rampant throughout the supply chain,
inflation, money supply manipulation, redistribution and transfer payments--If all were brought to the pricing bottom line,
Consumption would halt forever. But eventually it must be reconciled. One must win and one must lose in the new capitalism where everything is relative and nothing has an absolute value above the caprice of the state.
This is the robber and rust nation. Where all may break in and destroy on the hush, where every tangible can canker and corrode in an instant. It is gain by trap and snare, where any device above or beyond the law can be engaged in to force a newcomer into a ditch wherein he is parted with acquisitions, fined, and assisted for onerous fees.
It can exist only so long as caravans of innocents porting some treasure pass through. Without them the moneychangers, the mathematically cunning looters, the discounters of notes and souls have no meat upon which to feed.
It is a fullness of plague. There is no sanctuary of escape. Conducted in the shadows while all appearance is dressed to mimic normality. All the better to fleece you with, my dear.
YouTube - LUCKY DUBE -- Respect
YouTube - LUCKY DUBE -- Respect
"If you're going to run up credit cards, why not get oh, 100,000 of your friends, all of you take out $100,000.00, buy swaps against your credit card company"
That's a mean trick to pull against China, Mr. Geithner
"I'm finally seeing yacht prices peak and some great deals on yachtworld.com"
~~~~
Time to pick up a "shadow yacht " ...
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
but drug dealers don't have multi-billion dollar advertising campaigns either. marketing is very sophisticated now days. designed to pry at your every insecurity especially youthful ones. should really be called mindfucking, not advertising.
Norka:
True. I assumed that it was a personal card instead of business.
Good night folks.
Have a good week.
homedad - have fun at Disney! And let us know how busy it is.
Kauai_Kahuna -- not disagreeing with you really. just sayin...
night ya'll
It is gain by trap and snare, where any device above or beyond the law can be engaged in to force a newcomer into a ditch wherein he is parted with acquisitions, fined, and assisted for onerous fees.
Congratulations.
You just described today's corporate work environment.
should really be called mindfucking, not advertising.
advertising is really all about mass manipulation.
forgive me if there are any in the advertising profession here, but I have found the whole concept to be rather sleazy.
I get offered drugs a lot, I don't take them either.
We all do, just watch TV for an hour and count the drug-co commercials. Lots of lifestyle enhancers, less than zero medical benefit. In fact worse because the lifestyle enhancers are simply sucking R&D dollars away from medical advancement and into making sure boomers will be able to get stiffies into their late 70s. Great use of R&D. But I digress.....
BenFrananke - you're supposed to exhale it too...
C
ED it looks like the 3rd parties are getting a little more agressive about collecting...
I don't have historic numbers but I would venture a guess that third party sales are at or near record numbers right now. The lack of inventory in most (lower end) areas of the market means quite simply they have pricing power. Unless the shadow inventory legend is true, that there are a mass number of foreclosed home that haven't been put on market, the investors should have at least several months of profitable flipping ahead of them.
I've looked at the records I have access to. While nowhere near scientific I quite simply don't see masses of foreclosures sitting off market. I see masses of potential foreclosures sitting off market... but with loan mods and massive political pressure against foreclosure.. That isn't nearly the same thing. Combine that with every single underwater/distressed homeowner out there thinking they will get a loan mod and keeping their home off the market... Inventory is getting at critically low levels in many area on the low end.
This is happening in many markets across the country. Especially the places close into job centers.. The outer areas and the high end are what are suffering most.
Why ? Free ponzi money that cannot be ever collected in totality. Indeed it would be stupid not to abuse them (especially in a world where pay does not keep up with real inflation).
//My personal view is that in a financially literate world, almost all borrowers would pay off their credit card balances monthly (there are exceptions).//
Meredith Whitney has been calling this for some time:
Credit card lines are being cut at an accelerating pace," Whitney said on Tuesday, "and this clearly does not bode well for consumer confidence or prospective consumer spending."
From its peak, she estimates that over $1 trillion in lines have already been cut from the market. One predominant reason she remains so cautious on the U.S. consumers and prospective consumer spending over the next year and a half is the overwhelming trend she sees in available consumer liquidity.
Whitney, a closely followed Wall Street analyst who recently opened the Meredith Whitney Advisory Group, has long warned of cutting credit card lines, which she described to Forbes as the "most interesting topic" she follows.
Whitney: Credit Contracting - Forbes.com
Go girl!
mmckinl - I'm still scrummaging through the bargain bin of yachts.
splat,
viagra is great.. even for guys who have no ED. It is incredibly good for lasting a long... time. try going 30 minutes.. then 30 minutes again.. then 40 minutes .... your partner might be sore, but that is her problem.
More Meredith:
Meredith Whitney and Bank Stocks - CNBC
a hoity-toity Hollywood type
That describes half of LA.
splat -
We all do,
I actually do that a lot, I got in the habit after taking a PolSci class on the media.
I just don't suffer from that, at least I'm highly resistant, I have been driving my close to POS car for 12 years and am looking for a new one only because my car is quickly becoming a POS where it will cost more to maintain it than buy a new one.
Maybe it was my dirt poor upbringing, what I crave the most is financial security, until then everything else is minimalist, so I think I be a Spartan for the rest of my life because I really don't see a good way out of this crap.
I am currently laid off from work and am carrying a 3,000 balance on Discover. They recently moved up the payment due date by 5 days without a notice. I happened to catch it on the bill. I called them and explained that I had requested and recieved a specific due date to make sure I would be able to make my payment on time. I have never been late. The Rep. eventually changed the date back. I was told this would not change my terms in any way. The next bill arrived, interest had been jumped from 9.99 to 17%! Husband took over and rate is supposed to be returned to 9.99% . I am really getting tired of tying to play by the rules when the game is stacked against you. Oh, and for that person that wants to tell me how I shouldn't be carrying a balance at all. Of course, you are right. I also wasn't smart enough to take out a whopping HELOC to pay off my credit cards like so many others.
"your partner might be sore, but that is her problem"
or his problem - lets keep this open..
Dawg dont mind "eh" it is so Canadian....What I do dislike is "come with" in some States.
Youshouldaknowed,
stop paying them.. usury should not be tolerated! and what do you have to lose anyway?
a hoity-toity Hollywood type
That describes half of LA.
But is he/she passive-aggressive.
Can't be true LA-Hollywood type without the passive-aggressive, the world owes me attitude.
Effective Demand -
Thank you for the post and link, it is very interesting.
So do you think the next leg of Alt-A and Option Arms will be the last wave?
Or will rising un-employment and furloughs make a series of waves?
RobDawg should sample some of the escorts in montreal.. inexpensive and lots of variety!
Hopefully he did not run up credit card debt buying that hideous chair
LOL. Actually, I don't see any other furniture or decorations in that pic and he certainly didn't spend it on paint...
That chair retails for $ 5,486 after tax. If you're smart, you could get it for $50 at a flea market. This guy clearly isnt so smart. But I bet you he thinks he is clever.
homedad wrote:
I wonder if there isn't going to wind up being some coming reset such that the average credit rating will decline so precipitously that 380 will be the new 650.
FICO may have to start grading on the curve.
Ghoulsby was on Colbert informing us we'll all be happy a year from now...
For your amusement!
If You're a Lame Duck, Quack Like One
- Bloomberg.com
06:18 PM Monday June 15, 2009
By Marshall Goldsmith
For many leaders, it is hard to make the announcement that they will soon be passing the baton of leadership to their successor. The common fear is that if they declare their intentions too soon, they will become lame ducks. No one wants that to happen.
Almost every leader goes through this inner dialogue as part of the challenge of "slowing down." This fear, which often results in postponing the announcement about succession until the last minute, inhibits what could have been a much smoother transition.
Face it: When you are nearing the time to exit, you will become a lame duck! That is okay. Eyes will immediately turn to your successor as their vision for the team, department or company will mean more than yours. Colleagues who have encountered your disapproval for their pet ideas will just "wait it out" and re-sell their ideas to your successor. People will start sucking up to him or her the way they used to suck up to you
So our government takes our money and gives it to banks so that they can spend it on this? The system is rotten. I have already started to cash out my chips (dollars). Every day I get closer to taking my ball and going home for good. Cash will just be temporary storage until I can spend it on hard assets - no more stocks, no more bonds, no more bank accounts.
That 75 year old with 112k in cc debt who is blowing it off...Moral Hazard. Though I doubt the old goat has ever heard the term. Folks are getting the message that you just don't have to pay...and the "financially literate" is clearly the smallest possible segment of Americans.
Time for a War on Credit.
Ghouls by any other name, are still just nasty deceptive creatures that will eat you happily, bones and all, if it suits them.
What were you expecting? A society gets the government it deserves.
//So our government takes our money and gives it to banks so that they can spend it on this?//
fried,
Why expect an average person to be more moral than the leaders?
@OnlineBrokerReview
Don't know if you read my post a few days ago:
I am on strike against the system
Dear State of California,
I quit my job last friday (a full time highly paid position), so sadly I won't be able to help you with your impending bankruptcy. I will, however, watch the trainwreck from afar.
Dear Bank of America,
I have closed all my long time accounts. Try charging me for checks now. Good luck making any mortgages/refinances with the increasing interest rates.
Dear Fidelity,
I have cashed out all my 401k/IRA. Good luck trying to push more suckers into bonds from stocks.
Dear Chase,
Only integrity stands between me charging the max on all my credit cards, and declaring bankruptcy. That line's getting thin, too. The creditors can't call me if I'm not in United States.
Dear Fed Reserve,
I will be traveling in Asia, with my savings already in a foreign bank account, living comfortably with $7/day food and $400/month rent. Why work when the government steals your labor via the printing press, I ask myself. I'll just come back when hyperinflation prompts the american public to hang you from the statue of liberty.
What have people got to lose by not paying their credit card bills, when they've already been deep-sixed financially?
Was the use of credit inflationary?
Also, wouldn't credit card company writeoffs be considered losses and therefore tax deductable, and, in effect, they get paid either way? Hopefully, it's not that simple.
@Lucifer - isn't that why we elected them? To get the worst people in out towns and/or states as far away from home as possible?
That is precisely what banksters so want to understand.
//What have people got to lose by not paying their credit card bills, when they've already been deep-sixed financially?//
Actually, the question is what have people got to lose by not paying their credit card bills when everyone else has already been deep-sixed financially?
Guillotines are a better implement to achieve that result.
//@Lucifer - isn't that why we elected them? To get the worst people in out towns and/or states as far away from home as possible?//
Scrooge McDuck -
Dear Fed Reserve,
I will be traveling in Asia, with my savings already in a foreign bank account, living comfortably with $7/day food and $400/month rent.
Nice, wish I could do that, but which country can you get a good rental for only $400 unless your out in the boon docks?
I have been struggling a bit to meet my obligations. I guess whats at stake is my credit score and dignity. But maybe it's like that saying," If you can't get your dignity back, at least get your underwear".
What are they smoking?
BOJ More Optimistic About Economy, Holds Rate at 0.1% (Update1)
Shirakawa Says No Guarantee Japan Recovery Will Last (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
By Mayumi Otsuma
June 16 (Bloomberg) -- The Bank of Japan raised its view of the economy for a second month as improvements in exports and industrial output added to evidence that the nation’s deepest postwar recession is easing.
“Japan’s economic conditions, after deteriorating significantly, have begun to stop worsening,” the bank said in a statement in Tokyo today after leaving the overnight lending rate at 0.1 percent. “In the coming months, Japan’s economy is likely to show clearer evidence of leveling out over time.”
There must be some magic number of cc defaults where the whole shooting works comes apart at the seams, i'm thinking 15%.
We've been going up 1 percent a month lately, so it wont be long now...
I am going to stay at rental sponsored by the language school in Tokyo...$500/month. I'm sure I can get $300-$400/month in Bali/Vietnam/Taiwan.
The truth is that you have nothing to lose at this time in history..
//I guess whats at stake is my credit score and dignity.//
20% for over a year should finish many of them.. but TARP can prolong their existence.
@Scrooge McDuck
Ahh you went full on Atlas Shrugged...good for you.
I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me.
Scrooge McDuck -
I am going to stay at rental sponsored by the language school in Tokyo...
Sounds interesting one of my bartender's went to teach English in Thialand, it may be good to do for a change but I don't know if I would like to make it long term.
When I was a little kid, I remember my mom talking in hushed tones about the disgrace of the neighborhood, somebody that went bankrupt.
Shame will have it's day again...
What is "shame"?
//Shame will have it's day again...//
@shoulda - I'm sure a lot of us are tempted to join in the looting, but won't. I really don't know how people sleep at night after walking away from a mortgage or other debt, except that they apparently can't see the faces of the people their actions affect. It's not the big banks or CC companies losing - it's the savers and investors that are having their pensions and equity wiped out.
Shame will have it's day again...
-for all the shame in the world, people may as well walk around naked.
Bankruptcy idiocy...Judge rejects sale of Coyotes, move to Canada..."A bankruptcy judge has rejected the proposed sale of the franchise to Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie, who would have moved the team to Hamilton, Ontario.
Judge Redfield T. Baum issued a 21-page ruling late Monday afternoon, concluding the June 29 deadline imposed by Balsillie did not allow enough time to resolve the complex case.
“Simply put, the court does not think there is sufficient time (14 days) for all of these issues to be fairly presented to the court given that deadline,” the judge wrote."
Dummy! You only need a couple of days...the Supreme Court said so!
Shame is what happens after the sham is discovered.
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free...
Cheers,
prat
@Lucifer, re Viagra:
I weep for your putz.
What if almost everybody is neck deep in it?
//Shame is what happens after the sham is discovered.//
Going Galt is so overrated...
Why? I am enjoying it.. in any case, using it keeps it in much better shape.
//I weep for your putz.//
Will the recipients of CC company largesse receive a 1099 on their forgiven debt? I helped prepare returns this year and we had a couple people in this situation. One just threw up his hands and said he didn't have the money (for the additional tax) and that he was old enough that the IRS would probably not catch up to him before he died. So he didn't file.
Looks like we should prepare for more this coming year.
Scrooge, that's a nice deal you're getting in Tokyo.
In most of Asia you'll find that the income from teaching English will tend to track the level of local costs. So yeah, Bali and VN will be cheap living, but teaching won't pay. Taiwan will be remunerative, but will cost you (worth it, IMO). Watch the forbearance level of the var gov'ts for no doc workers, and get some certification if you can. Unless you get a real kick out of teaching, don't let it run too long. Tends to infantalize and corrupt the casual teacher. Happy travels.
missed last thread
I would buy a room at an extended stay for $10k.
$8k tax break, live there for a month then rent it. I want my cheese.
@Lucifer - didn't your mother tell u that using Viagra can make you go blind?
(If you can't read the fine print, it's already too late.)
What am I thinking, sell it to my buddy for 11k after a year and a day.
There was a family in our town that lost a buisness. The wife and kids moved out, to her folks out of state. a few weeks later the husband was moving out. He went inside the almost empty house, lit it on fire, the shot himself in the head. He must have used gas cans in the garage because the garage door blew off and landed 20 feet away. Oh, and he didn't die. The wife had to come back to pull the plug. he was in his late 30's with little kids. The house is being torn down. This is why am so angry when I think of all the greed and theivery that is being rewarded right now.
Shame isn't dead...
Dear powers that be,
I know that you have created this site for free and, of your own goodwill, given it to me. I know that you owe me nothing and I owe you for hours of fun and entertainment. But I also know that your web-foo is great. I therefore come bearing a request. You have given us the mighty "ignore user" features. I now ask of you... ignore replies to user?
ZOMG, would be sweet.
Cheers,
prat
25 mg can do amazing things to a normal guy.. 50 mgs.. hhehehehehe.. It is even better than when you were 15-16
//@Lucifer - didn't your mother tell u that using Viagra can make you go blind?//
Sounds interesting one of my bartender's went to teach English in Thailand
KK: Were you in San Francisco? Couple of years ago the local Irish bartender said the "hell with it, you only live once" and moved to Thailand to teach English.
I hope that the thai kids that he is teaching don't "tink" that "fuucking" is the correct adjective to precede all nouns in english.
Thanks for the link, Panda. I have been wondering how that one would turn out.
I am shocked.. not!
Reboxetine is a funny drug.. they first developed it as an atypical antipsychotic, then as an anti-depressant.. and now for restless leg syndrome. You get the point.. right?
Pfizer Violated Own Rules to Hide Depression Drug Studies
Pfizer Violated Own Rules to Hide Depression Drug Studies | BNET Pharma Blog | BNET
By Jim Edwards | June 12th, 2009 @ 11:38 am
Pfizer is accused of “deception through concealment” and “cheating” in failing to disclose nine of 16 trials of an antidepressant, Edronax (reboxetine), in Germany. The German Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Health Care slammed Pfizer in a press release titled:
Pfizer conceals study data; Drug manufacturer hinders the best possible treatment of patients with depression
Essex Pharma was also noted for not being completely upfront about its antidepressant, mirtazapine, and the Institute praised GlaxoSmithKline in the same set of statements for providing a full database of studies for bupropion XL.
Pfizer’s refusal to disclose its studies violates its own published policy about studies. That policy states:
In all cases, study results are reported by Pfizer in an objective, accurate, balanced, and complete manner and are reported regardless of the outcome of the study or the country in which the study was conducted.
Youshouldaknowed, people often denigrate the "sheeple" for their shortcomings, and are pitiless to their plight, but stories like yours help to provide missing context and put a human face on the situation, however sad. It must always be remembered that we are talking about real people, and not some abstraction.
Thank you Barfly. That is exactly it. There is a lot of pain going around now, and many people do not deserve it. This was just a man with a family. Now if he'd have been a Banker, Broker, or Politician...... Well, he never would have done it.
In that regard, barfly, it should be EVERYONE'S first mission to not allow this thievery to continue. Do whatever you can individually to inhibit the FedGov and its financial partners from utilizing any of your resources directly or indirectly for their continued immoral and unjust gain. All can do it in a dozen different anonymous ways.
Yes, at this point my advice to my cash-strapped self-employed friend -- who has worked hard to be 'middle class' for over 25 yrs -- is don't pay the damn ccs.
Put those funds in savings (so you have some) and let 'em call you. Then negotiate, or since this is one of my strengths, have 'em call you back and let me answer and do the deal for you. Eliminates the emotion. (Maybe this could be my new sideline...)
There is no way anyone will be giving her any credit anytime soon, so who cares about the gd credit score?
Just sent her the link to this article.
I of course paid mine off a year ago, so this news brings no benefit for me (at this point). Though in my continuing pondering of paying or not paying for health insurance, this article is yet another push to the NOT side. 1k/month, I'm just saying.
BTW, I also got killed in state and fed RE capital gains taxes 'cause I'm single & sold the house that I'd owned for 15 years. No consideration of the fact that I'm a head of household, or under-employed currently. Wrote the big checks... Ah well.
Put those funds in savings (so you have some) and let 'em call you.
Better to put them in a safe... no records, you know? What they can't find, they can't get.
No consideration of the fact that I'm a head of household, or under-employed currently.
Welcome to Malehood.
NorkaWest -
KK: Were you in San Francisco? Couple of years ago the local Irish bartender said the "hell with it, you only live once" and moved to Thailand to teach English.
I hope that the thai kids that he is teaching don't "tink" that "fuucking" is the correct adjective to precede all nouns in english.
No this was a pretty blond who was smart and I'm sure will do well teaching, I also told her the Thai men would go nuts over her. I'm sure she is having fun.
not Firefox friendly so deleted.
The Bucky-Gandhi Design Institution » Noah Raford – Collapse Dynamics – 26 May 2009 – London School of Economics
Better link, but takes forever to load.
Thai men are not stupid! White women are only considered a catch in arabian and black culture.
//No this was a pretty blond who was smart and I'm sure will do well teaching, I also told her the Thai men would go nuts over her. I'm sure she is having fun.//
That would be like having a pair of super-fine noise-canceling headphones. You'd only hear the sweet financial music.
During the '90's an long time acquaintance called me up after a long silence. During the course of the conversation, he mentioned that he'd run up $16,000 in debt on a credit card. How'd you do that? I asked. Gambing at a casino, he replied. But . . .. how did you happen to have that much?
He said that he just kept getting cash advances via the card. I think he ran up the $16,000 in a day or two, just gambling.
His mother (in her 70's) paid it off for him (he was a systems analyst, made good money but had no savings, naturally) on condition that he attend GA (Gamblers Anonymous) regularly. He agreed but told me years later that it was BS, he'd soon started gambling again. I lost touch with him not long after that for probably 7 years or so, but I suspect that his mother either ended up advancing his inheritance (so to speak) prior to her death, or that he rapidly ran through his share of her estate (which I believe was a good sized estate) pretty rapidly. Next time I heard from him he been unemployed, for probably 4 years, been on on SSDI for several years, and last year he got around to filing bankruptcy so he could quit making payments (or having his disability benefit garnished) on his credit cards. Never got around to or wanted to buy an RRE, apparently, & I doubt if he could've held onto it if he had. Says he's trying to get used to living a boring life (no gambling).
But I'm a gal -- sigh....
But I'm a gal -- sigh....
Don't worry.
We won't hold it against you.
NW
Always one of my favorite Valentine cards... "If I told you you had a good body would you hold it against me?"
so, speaking of gambling, i guess i'm feeling pretty good about my moves last week - half of my dba into ung, sold 2/5 of the tbt, doubled down on TZA and held the FAZ, and, my best play, bought some FXP at the low....
we'll see if the dumb luck holds
@Anak
Thanks; I should clarify that I'm going to the school to learn japanese, not to teach english. My grammer's horrendous
I would cause more harm than good.
just remember scrooge - tokidoki oki boki
NorkaWest,
Great link on phase transitions...Crichton's Jurassic Park novel is a good illustration of the concepts, and a relevant analogy. The park builders are like the banksters/regulators who think they can maintain control. Once the power goes out though(i.e. summer 2007 credit crisis), the raptors and T-Rex get out and regardless of restoration of parts of the system full recovery to the pre-existing state is impossible.
Lucifer -
Thai men are not stupid! White women are only considered a catch in arabian and black culture.
They are not used to blonds, believe me I have seem them go gaga over them. I will not get into a debate over their intelligence level.
Mega Millions is at $46 million
$28 Mil cash ...
Important part of anybody's retirement plan ...
"just remember scrooge - tokidoki oki boki"
Yeah I agree...what a great band.
The credit card companies are busy increasing the rates, lowering the limits, and closing accounts. So j6p isn't going to have any credit even if he keeps making his payments.
With all the underwater sellers out there how hard do you think it is to find a house to buy/rent/lease option, etc. How hard would it be to find someone about to have their car repoed and offer to make their payments.
If you are able to maintain an income I think you will be able to get whatever you need with completely trashed credit. Collections people will try any trick to guilt you into making another payment. You have to learn to tell them no, conserve your cash, and avoid using up your friends and family until they have gone away. You certainly won't get any gratitude for making another payment.
There are lots of educated, well informed posters on this website, but the majority are fiscal conservatives and many clearly have no clue what the world looks like from the other side.
So, I've just finished a full-time graduate degree. School was paid for through savings, but I needed approximately $30k to live on per year where I was located. The previous year, I was able to get that $30k in private student loans - no problem.
This past year, I needed that money about the same time the market was going to hell. Guess what? Loan declined! So how did I make it this past year? Prior to school, I had fantastic credit, so I had about $50k in CC lines at very low CC rates. We're talking single digits.
So, that's one way to rack up massive credit card debt. I now have $35k on my cards, THANK GOD the rates have only inched up slightly, although the issuers have tailored my lines lower, which does not help my credit rating. I'm into the high 600s at the moment.
I continue to make payments, and as soon as I start my new job in a month or so, I should be able to work out those balances to zero in the next 6-9 months.
But stories like this make me want to say the hell with it to the CC companies - come and get it!
mhdoc -
There are lots of educated, well informed posters on this website, but the majority are fiscal conservatives and many clearly have no clue what the world looks like from the other side.
I grew up what most people would consider dirt poor, and most of my friends from school are in the same boat still. But I still can't see overspending, maxing out yourself and then just walking away.
Now for those who have never been able to save simply because they have had to spend every penny just to survive, finally gets a credit card and then have a medical emergency I can understand.
People who lived large off of MEWS, and rolling credit, have my despise.
mhdoc,
Hey, despite a decent upbringing I certainly didn't start that way -- ended up in Chapter 13 as a result.
You're dead right about saying no to collections people. I wish I knew before what I know now. First item of business -- DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE. Get a machine, screen all calls, and never pick up for collectors, period.
remember, kids: fiat currency is a joke. hate the game, not the player.
the system is designed to make jamie dimon and bill gross twice as rich every few years. they matter. you don't.
landslide -
I had to drop out of Grad School before my final semester because the paperwork I filled out to take a six month break for the Reserves got messed up by the College, which kicked off my student loans, and they never contacted me. When I found out about it, it was over 90 days past due and I had a hell of a bill for fines, etc.
I saw my only option was to drop out and get a job that would allow me to pay my bills and live within my means. Different times, but hell it was only 14 years ago.
If we have a Debt-money system, not a fiat money system,
and
70% of GDP is consumer spending
and
the banks cut off credit to the consumer,
then
how the hell are we going to have any sort of economic recovery in the foreseeable future (green shoots or no).
Yes, a line has been crossed, years ago. And now suddenly more people are seeing that line in the distance behind us.
I'll have to add this CR post link into what I just wrote on the bigger picture.
We all will pay for the credit bubble, no matter what. It's just a matter of choosing the best way:
Finding the Dream
how the hell are we going to have any sort of economic recovery in the foreseeable future (green shoots or no).
Start blowing up that balloon again, blow harder!
Start blowing up that balloon again, blow harder!
With or without feeling?
NW
No balloons left to blow up that'll float the entire economy.
What if you make an all out attempt to start a business and it fails? Whatever the rights or wrongs there comes a time when you simply can't make the payments. You are much better off if you realize that early and face the reality while you still have resources such as friends and family.
The banks made a business decision that they could profitably lend to people with certain credit characteristics. The projected loss rate would be more than compensated for by the profits. So now they get to tell their creditors "Whoops, that didn't work out like we planned."
I must admit to a certain amount of Schadenfreude as I see them having done the same dumb things I did but with lots more zeros.
"Discovery channel has a show on now called "Pig Bomb" "
That reminds me. My buddy, an observant man with 4 kids who worked for the judge next door, started calling me "Pig Bunny", which he found hilarious. He walked in to our chambers and said to my boss, "Judge, you are a caricature of yourself", which contained too much truth.
I asked him jokingly if he had taken his medication that day, but he gave me a serious answer. So following traditional advice, I never ask that question any more unless I already know the answer.
After a job loss my spouse and I racked up $10k of living expenses (meaning groceries and rent, not jet skis or vegas vacations) on credit cards. Unable to pay, I looked into it and discovered I had bargaining power. It took me weeks of horrible phone calls. I'd play the passive aggressive, the credit collector played the sheriff threatening to arrest me. In the end I managed to negotiate our debts down maybe 30-35%, which at the time felt like pulling teeth. I felt like it would literally have taken a year of phone calls to get down to 50% off, although there is of course no telling if or when that would have happened. So to read that they now do 50% at the drop of a hat is stunning to me.
I got our debt marked as paid-in-full, but I did not know enough to do things perfectly, so I do have two negatives on my report that will fall off later this year. But even with those, my credit report repaired itself over the years to the point where in the fog-a-mirror days we surely could have HELOC'd or bought a house, etc.
For anyone in these straits considering doing this, you'll want to negotiate a one-time lump sum payment in exchange for the chargeoff. You'll also want to be sure to get the debt marked as paid in full, and, if possible, on good conditions - meaning there are no prejudicial statements in your credit report. Get a FAXED, WRITTEN offer from your credit card with everything spelled out clearly. There are a few good Nolo press books on dealing with out-of-control credit, and A LOT of total scams on the internet that need to be avoided.
Be careful. Take your time. All unsecured debt is negotiable.
mhdoc -
I remember learning a long time ago that if you find yourself in a hole, first thing to do is STOP DIGGING.
I have made many boneheaded mistakes in my life, and still do. I just try not to make the same mistake twice, and after dealing with the bank on my student loans, man I do not want to ever make that mistake again. Maybe I just learned early, which reminded me of the stories my grandparents would tell me of how they got screwed royally by the banks during the Depression.
There is still a lot of pain to come.
Thank you for the post and link, it is very interesting.
So do you think the next leg of Alt-A and Option Arms will be the last wave?
Or will rising un-employment and furloughs make a series of waves?
With such an engineered and interfered with market I have a hard time seeing the government letting it deflate. Option-arms will be modified where they can be. There isn't a solution to unemployment outside of forebearance though.
It is really hard to overstate just how little inventory there is in the affordable ranges near the population centers in CA. Much of it got swallowed up since December and very little inventory has come on.
Will the floodgates open, Short sales or foreclosures? Or will loan mods and political pressure win out? Transaction volume should plummet if the government "wins". There is the big lump of old short sales sitting contingent but not yet approved off market. Once those get processed through we will be in a very low volume enviroment unless something breaks.
Depressing to think about from a point of view of someone who was responsible and saved, but it is what the government wants and there isn't a thing I can do about it outside of not throwing my money in with the crazy people. This could just be the calm before the "storm" of a more controlled landing where the banks meter out inventory without letting it get out of control again like they did last summer. That is about as best case as I can see over the next few months, past that I've got zero idea because it all depends on political will instead of free markets or economic sense.
"I must admit to a certain amount of Schadenfreude as I see them having done the same dumb things I did but with lots more zeros."
~~~~
Did your business plan include fraud ?
That is you paid yourself exorbitant bonuses while your business collapsed ?
To paraphrase an ancient political taunt, "Lehman Brothers lost their billions, JPM their hundreds of billions"
Effective Demand -
Thanks again, that is something to think about. I desperately want a single family home, but I don't need it and lately I'm starting to feel more and more like I should wait to buy one with cash.
for Dryfly and everyone else who actually makes stuff:
Supply chains and financial shocks | vox - Research-based policy analysis and commentary from leading economists
Supply chains and financial shocks: Real transmission channels in globalised production networks
Trade collapse and international supply chains: Evidence from Japan | vox - Research-based policy analysis and commentary from leading economists
Trade collapse and vertical foreign direct investment
NW
Game theory says all debtors to company x should get together on facebook and agree on a percentage. Another percentage should be set aside to compensate those against whom company x takes selective action. The big boys do it all the time.
OT:
retiring for $500/month
Can you Retire on $500 per month? | JetSetCitizen.com
No argument from me but two more thoughts.
I am sure all small businesses have had multiple times when they thought the game was over but then something happened to save the day. A few thousand of cash comes in and suddenly the world is a different place. After that happens a few times it's really hard not to think it couldn't happen again. VERY tempting to do whatever it takes to buy time for the next miracle to happen
I think many of the posters here are woefully out of touch with how folks dealing with financial disaster, however caused, really think. I would suggest that might be dangerous to their continued financial well being.
For some people it's like that Kenny Rodger's song," You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold'em". On one level you know its time to capitulate but there is fear. Also, if you are married, both of you need to be at the same place in order to survive it. I have been lurking here for about 10 months and so often I have thought, If I'd only started sooner, maybe... But even with what I've gleaned so far it's hard to accept how bad it is/will get.
Nah
I said I was dumb. I did everything in my own name, raided my IRA, borrowed from my folks before filing the chapter 7
I would buy a room at an extended stay for $10k.
$8k tax break, live there for a month then rent it. I want my cheese.
The often-misquoted tax credit is 10% (1k on 10k) up to a limit of 8k.
That NYT story about the bank taking half right off the bat sets the bar for millions out there.
"Take the Money and Run" was on the other night but I missed it. Part of a big Woody set but still topical.
Effective Demand,
Confirmed the anecdotes I was hearing from work; my family hasn't done too much looking for a new rental place yet. I'm wondering if going to a trustee sale and asking to let me rent woul dbe a good idea...
I'll take a suite of 8 rooms, please.
Waste of time. They aren't really motivated sellers. Put an ad in Craigs list explaining that you are responsible renters who will take care of the place but don't have a lot of money and see who calls.
Kauai_Kahuna,
In the same basic boat I just will wait to buy when it makes sense. I fully realize that may be never. That old saying "The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" may apply but it kind of seems like "The markets can go be irrational and I will go be solvent"
Why not try to negotiate a rent-to own, where you build equity? Cut out the middle-man.
Scrooge McDuck -
retiring for $500/month
Thanks for posting that.
I would go out on a limb and say that's almost on topic. We are talking about a major deleverage and lower standards of living for many people.
So $4,000 a month to live like a king huh? That is rent for some places like here.
From some of your earlier postings I gather house price declines haven't really taken effect completely where you are. However, why not go looking at some places and offer to rent with an option to buy at a price and payment you can afford. Negotiate the option for as long as you can, get some credit for rent paid as some or all of the down payment and see if you can get seller financing when/if you exercise the option.
If prices come down you renegotiate or let the option expire.
OnlineBrokerReview (profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Tue, 6/16/2009 - 4:10 am
reply Ignore user
@Scrooge McDuck
Ahh you went full on Atlas Shrugged...good for you.
I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me.
Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?
mhdoc -
Hawaii is only starting to feel the downturn, but I already own a three bedroom apartment which I have paid off. It's OK, but there is the desire to live the lifestyle of having a backyard, being able to BBQ and Homebrew. Having a garage to store my junk in, etc.
It is not a need, so for the last 10 years I have just been thinking there would be no way in hell I would ever be able to afford a real home here. Now I have hopes, but the demand for security out weighs the desire to stick my neck out too far. That is why articles like "Retire on 500 dollars" catch my eye. That is less than my maintenance fee.
"But this Disney thing is gonna eat me up. Hell, the tix are the highest item and are larger than the car rental/timeshare/airfare combined."
Homedad, go on craigslist and rent park hopper tickets for the day. You can usually find someone renting theirs for 55-60 bucks. I did that when I went to Disneyland last December and saved over $200 on tickets for the day.
@Not One Cent.
"I really want to tell Chase to screw off. With a perfect payment history they raised my interest rate to over 20%. And then they give these deadbeats credit - what a total fraud. Don't worry though they will never get a penny of interest out of me."
Did you see the language on page 3 that says "without prior notice, we may close your account at any time for any reason..."? Also, I think the interest rate is given as Prime + a percentage so if we get the inflation many worry about only 20% will look like a screaming deal.
"Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?"
Because they could
Aren't there owners looking to trade down for a 3-bedroom when their kids move out?
Check the divorce notices.
But even with what I've gleaned so far it's hard to accept how bad it is/will get.
Step back, take a look at your life from different point of view, decide what you want to do. That story of the guy who deprived his wife and children of his company because his ego was shattered? Sad on so many levels.
How does a lease with option to buy constitute sticking your neck out? If prices go down you walk with no consequences, if they go up you have a good price locked in.
Not trying to give you a hard time, just suggesting you might consider re-evaluating your concerns.
Last I saw average credit-card rate was about 15% but that might be a few months old.
mhdoc -
No I'm open to any and all options, just right now I have a place that is OK, just not great and it cost me around $700 a month with fees, and bills. You can't even rent a room in a house for that much unless your in areas I would not want to park my car in for 10 minutes.
Right now I'm able to save around 45% of my base salary which is good since I neglected savings to pay off my debts. Many argue with me about my priorities but I got to do what feels right for me and lets me sleep well at nights.
Right now I could most likely retire in 10 years, or buy a house and maybe retire in 40 years. Of course I may just move and retire in 5 years. Or at least stop working jobs I don't like.
KK, do me a favor and all CR readers the favor of explaining why hawaii real estate has such weird language to it. it almost seems like a mexican 99-year lease... what's the deal?
Isn't Hawaii a place where you want to be outdoors a lot?
HollywoodHack -
KK, do me a favor and all CR readers the favor of explaining why hawaii real estate has such weird language to it. it almost seems like a mexican 99-year lease... what's the deal?
Cuz wez be edumicated local style. (I speak two languages, Pidgin and bad english).
Actually There are fee simple, where you hold the title to the land, and there are still a lot of lease hold, where you rent the land on long term lease.
I actually don't bother reading the text and only look at the stat's and location, I just thought that was universal realtor's speak. Maybe I'm not nearly as clueless as I thought I was.
1 currency now -yogi - Isn't Hawaii a place where you want to be outdoors a lot?
If your not too busy working two jobs to pay the bills.
I think the last time I went to the beach was around a year ago, a work function, the command I work with had a picnic and I brought two kegs of homebrew. It's is wonderful when you can do it.
Fee simple goes back I believe to William the Conq.
I know I have posted it before, but the best web site for RE on Oahu, (the main island) is without a doubt:
Oahu Real Estate
Still 600K for small zero line houses. Jobs over seas is looking better and better.
right - the lease hold business sounds like something a californian would recognize as a cabo kind of deal...
anyone out there know of another place in the good ol' us-of-a where long term land leases are a proxy for actual ownership?
incidentally, hawaii is the only good argument for imperialism that i'm aware of.
What % of the population would you say is of Polynesian descent, what part Japanese, and how much land do they control, out of curiosity?
the census website can tell you the first part of that, yogi. one of the few good deals we gringo taxpayers get, actually.
April, 2001:
"<<<<<99-Year Net Lease Worth $3.2 Billion; Richest Real Estate Transaction in New York History>>>>>>
The World Trade Center today became the richest real estate prize in New York City history as the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey reached agreement with a major New York City developer and an international shopping center operator on a long-term lease of the famous Twin Towers and other properties at the World Trade Center. "
anyone out there know of another place in the good ol' us-of-a where long term land leases are a proxy for actual ownership?
HH, we were just discussing the towers in MDR the other day.
1 currency now -yogi -
What % of the population would you say is of Polynesian descent, what part Japanese, and how much land do they control, out of curiosity?
Wow, those are questions I have not even thought about for years, but without facts here is my take on it.
There is roughly 1/3 Polynesian, 1/3 Asian, 1/3 Caucasian. They do kind of group together from the plantation days so you have Philippine towns, Chinese areas, etc. Different Islands have different mix's.
The majority of the land is still owned and controlled by large corporations, home ownership is spread out well, but the Asians where the group that savings and building assets was a priority.
There is also the Bishop Estate, a trust left over from the Monarchy, as well as the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, both which control a good amount of land dedicated to enhance the livelihood of the few remaining Hawaiians.
In short, there is a good amount of land, but little open for home building and ownership. And even less critical items such as water to support too much expansion.
Isn't Hawaii a place where you want to be outdoors a lot?
My biz partners and I have a condo in Makaha Valley Plantation, they're planning on retiring there. Ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice,.... (Life's been good to me so far.) And yes, when we were looking at property on the Windward side, we snorkeled morning and evening and spent a lot of time outside. At night the damn mosquitos ate me up. (Daytime , too, in the valleys.)
2000 census says about 9% Native H or Pac Isl., 18% Jap., 22% Cauc, 20% 2 or more "races", but I don't know what margin of error should be.
"My biz partners and I have a condo in Makaha Valley Plantation, they're planning on retiring there. Ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice,.."
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
Makaha Valley is nice, but it is way out there, nice for retirement and much cheaper due to the long commute it can take up to two hours one way during rush hour and if there is an accident you can forget about it.
As far as race definitions go here, it's crazy. So many people are mixed you ask them you get a percentage listing that can last around a minute.
Headed to Israel in a few weeks but I don't think I'll get to the Red Sea. They let me scuba dive there once (off the beach) after about a minute of training.
Scrooge McDuck -
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
Maile is the best for haoles out there, but Makaha has some very nice places up in the valley. The real problem now is ice, years ago I used to go to Waianae all the time and never had a problem. (I'm blond, blue eyes, full on haole).
I don't go there any more, you know it's bad when people from there don't go there any more because people are just crazy.
Something about the Polynesian women gives them extra mix-appeal.
I have my gear buried, I have not been diving in almost three years now.
And I got to admit, my jaw hits the floor even now at times. A Polynesian / asian brings out some real fine looking women.
In Waianae? Hmm...they don't like the haoles there....Last time I was on that side of the island, droves of family lived on the beach...literally.
They don't like tourists. I can pass for a local if I don't open my mouth. And yes the beaches have families on them with furniture and kids doing their homework under canopies. But except for the rental car break-in (they got a cooler with a a couple of sodas) we've always met with good people, even my partners (who are Nordic looking).
Saw some areas in Honolulu like any other slums, places in Kaneohe that felt like tweakerville, and the center of the island can sometimes feel like the mainland, with better weather.
A local friend that I was travelling with said he used to love going to yoks (yokahama beach) when he was young. He doesn't go anymore.
sdtfs - the center of the island can sometimes feel like the mainland, with better weather.
I live in Mililani now, I like it. There are also very nice parts of Kaneohe, and some of the ridge lines above Honolulu are very nice.
Of course Kahala and Hawaii Kai are over priced.
Well, time to get some things done, take care all.
Way to kill the thread, KK.
yep, he whacked it good. Goodnight all.
In the 80's I had a client who would max out credit cards. He said that the number was 15. When collectors would call, he would tell them about the other 14 cards and about his business that going through "hard times" (it wasn't, his business was good). He would then tell the CC companies that he would put their card into a hat and make a monthly payment on only one at the end of the month because that was all he could afford. Furthermore, he would tell the complaining CC company collection agent that if that CC company didn't stop harassing him, he would "take their card out of the hat" and they would get "nothing". Eventually they would settle for a 50% payoff, often in no interest installments. As you probably guessed, about one month after the last payment, the CC company would send another card which he would max out and the process would start all over again.
The change in the bankruptcy law was supposed to end this practice, but the invisible hand undid what Congress and the CC companies tried to do.
yeah but you wouldn't be able to borrow money to buy foreclose real estate then....
I have never carried a balance since college. I actaully went on citi's online credit card thing and requested an increase and they instantly offered me an extra $1000.
I don't see a credit problem if you are not a moron.
Of course then there are people like my idiot coworker just bought a used 2008 honda accord for $20k, and seeing as he's broke he borrowed the money at 13.99% interest for 7 years (which he thinks is cheap since its less than the 30% his credit cards charge).
I have told him he's an idiot. He can't stop himself. I would like tow rite a credit default swap on him, but AIG wont let me.
i'm from LA. LA is like 40% those people.
the other 40% are people who are ghetto or wanna be thugs and are over turning police cars after the lakers win a title. then i'd say about 20% are actual decent people.
I still love the place, if anything with that mix of people there's always something going on that you wont see anywhere else.
NW.
Good links. Thx
Jeebus, is this still going? Bacon drifting down the hallway...
Wire scan says Asian equities still in the tank, regional currencies slopping around a bit, Yen powering back and the antipodes strenghtening slightly, US futures back to kermit after a reasonable day in Yerp on German sentiment, will be interesting to see what kicks the US data today bring; housing starts, industrials, PPI.
Meanwhile, VIXy is putting on some beef, rightly so. UST curve bit mixed, UK goes all jelly-kneed and syndicates the gilt issue. Pathetic.
Ubernerd time for VIX trackers : there IS a Nikki VIX !!! Huzzah!
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Have a lovely day all. Trade well.
C
I did a contract stint in small regional bank in the mid-90s in their credit card department - it cured me once and for all of credit card addiction. I use them, and at times even carry a balance (one of those 14 months free!), but only when I have enough cash on hand and allocated to pay it off immediately in full. Gaming one from Chase right now. Given that the rules will be rewritten at in the leadup to the new legislation, I'm preparing to clear it and close that and the AMEX. Only two I have. Somewhat shocked that my limits have remained in the stratosphere - I pay too well. I'm guessing I'll have to evaluate the fee thing and perhaps just carry one after the reform takes effect and the new product lines gel.
"Obama will call for the creation of a new financial watchdog agency. Its mission will be to protect consumers from deceptive or dangerous mortgages, credit cards and other financial products. Proponents have dubbed it a "financial products safety commission" akin to the federal agency that oversees safety of toys and other products.......the only [new agency] that so far the banking industry uniformly doesn't like.
........another Mommy Agency. Now we won't even have to read what we sign. I now rest assured in the "we are from the government - we are here to help" motto. A governmental GPS for the financially wayward.
........"Hi! I'm BSR and I am a "Chargaholic". I've been clean and debt free for 15-years."
BSR - funny. Like the notion of consequences still exists...!
Mommy has now taken them away because the children couldn't cope.
C
....the whole thing is nuts, cp
This Administration is setting itself up for the mother of all Constitutional crises. A majority centrist Court and a compliant Congress giving free reign is a formula for snapback like Roosevelt saw with his New Deal.
"Centrist" has most recently meant to me a liberal republican "bent". Is that still the meaning of the phrase - or has it changed as well?
Yeah, liberal republican is part of the current centrist court. Some of the republican nominees have proven less far right as they were assumed and/or portrayed early in their tenures. Regardless, what we don't have are any strict interpreters of which we are in desperate need IMO.
From WaPo:
California Is Denied Federal Aid
The Obama administration has turned back pleas for emergency aid from one of the biggest remaining threats to the economy -- the state of California.
Top state officials have gone hat in hand to the administration, armed with dire warnings of a fast-approaching "fiscal meltdown" caused by a budget shortfall. Concern has grown inside the White House in recent weeks as California's fiscal condition has worsened, leading to high-level administration meetings. But federal officials are worried that a bailout of California would set off a cascade of demands from other states....
After a series of meetings, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, top White House economists Lawrence Summers and Christina Romer, and other senior officials have decided that California could hold on a little longer and should get its budget in order rather than rely on a federal bailout.
These policymakers continue to watch the situation closely and do not rule out helping the state if its condition significantly deteriorates, a senior administration official said. But in that case, federal help would carry conditions to protect taxpayers and make similar requests for aid unattractive to other states, the official said. The official did not detail those conditions.
Well, something of a more important nature occurred yesterday - BSR's #1 rooster "Big Red" got his ass handed to him all day yesterday by "Gray" - formerly known as the #1 Contender. He apparently had had his fill of Big Red being a total pain in the butt - and attempted and succeeded in kicking Red's ass all over the entire Ranch. "Gray" is half the size of "Red" and just outmaneuvered him while spurring and pecking like a rooster on steroids. Yep - a new bad-ass in town - his crow even sounds more ferocious now.
Can you tell we live in a simpler place here? ROFL
Morning......
Just read through last night's comments.
If anyone remains curious as to how generations so idealistic in their undergraduate years become so corrupt a few decades on, just look above and witness the first stages of the transformation.
"just look above and witness the first stages of the transformation."
....how far?
Elections have been stolen or bought and paid for here in the states, no difference really.
And why is Letterman apologizing to Sara Palin?...who cares what that silver spoon feed dolt thinks she is just a governor of Alaska not the queen of the land.
Here is a thought, Sara what is 1+1.....
I live in a simple place surrounded by simple people. When I try to give them some facts about the financial situation they get a thousand meter stare.
When I explain that Iran is about to implode/explode they insist they haven't been keeping up, but they wish Israel would go ahead and do something.
When I ask how things are they say, "I'm blessed, so very blessed." Then they wander off.
BTW: One needn't get dressed up for a Wallie World outing. I found this out the other day. Next time I'm going with the sweat pants, T top and flip-flops. Maybe eat some donuts while I'm there. Is it true that if you eat it in the store it isn't stealing?
burnside prolly thinks this is corrupt, but who's gonna care what some people think
BSR:
The cognitive distance from a twenty-something would-be anarchist to SIVs and dark pools is not great, I'd say.
bobbi, lol!
I'm not sweating the sweats or the donuts!
the new comment browser is soo slow.
/Bugs Bunny on
Oh yeah?
Now, I dare you to cross THIS line.
/Bugs Bunny off
"June looks to be a very weak month for non-gasoline retailers" ICSC-Goldman Store Sales down Y/Y -1.5%
"Some of the republican nominees have proven less far right as they were assumed and/or portrayed early in their tenures. "
Uh, name one?
yogi - there hasn't been a true conservative for decades. ALL have shown a propensity to BIG government and BIG spending. SMALL central government, NO federal deficit, LOWER federal budget - find me one like THAT - it doesn't matter from which side of the aisle he/she/it comes ....
"Some of the republican nominees have proven less far right as they were assumed and/or portrayed early in their tenures. "
Uh, name one?
Souter.
Name a Justice who has proven to be less right wing than assumed and cite a case, please.
Now, I dare you to cross THIS line.
Sometimes my conscience gets the best of me... but not this time!
[first thing I did when I saw CRs title was to youtube that episode. "Cross this line" is at the 4;00 mark.]
I'll go all in...
GW Bush functionally was a liberal with respect to fiscal policy; far more liberal than Clinton or Bush the Literate.
Who thought Souter was particularly right wing?
Housing starts up, builder confidence down. hmmm
Starts over 17 pct that is - due to multifam construction. All this during a commercial RE bust?
"Who thought Souter was particularly right wing?"
He was thought to be when he was proposed as a Justice. There was alot of pushback from Democrats at the time.
It's not so much right or left wing Supremes, more along the lines of barely religious and overly so.
He was pretty much unknown.
Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito and Kennedy are by no means centrists. No two people agree on exactly which positions are left or right on a given legal issue, in any event.
And why is Letterman apologizing to Sara Palin?...who cares what that silver spoon feed dolt thinks she is just a governor of Alaska not the queen of the land.
Maybe he's seen the memo that she will be next POTUS...and is getting his sucking up in early.
Well, people please don't forget my personal favorite Sandra Day O'Connor appointed by His Majesty as the first female justice.
Deciding for the government against an individual asserting a Constitutional right is not "liberal".
Somebody do a nose count of the Roman Catholics on the SCOTUS, please.
6 with Sotomayor
Remember the amount you do not pay is taxable income. Wait for the 1099 to come in the mail.
"Bush the Literate."
You mean Voodoo Economics Bush...anything to get elected Bush? That one?
Private property rights...wait til you see what Sotomayor does to those...she expanded on the Kelo vs New London case in a land grab with crooked pols...
The Taking of Port Chester - Forbes.com
Remember the amount you do not pay is taxable income. Wait for the 1099 to come in the mai
@Not One Cent
"Do you know why the company raised your rate to 20%?"
I called them to ask them that. They responded that it was a "business decision." I asked what kind of business decision doubles the interest rate on a customer who has paid his card off in full every month and has a 734 credit score? They did not answer.
@mhdoc
"Did you see the language on page 3 that says "without prior notice, we may close your account at any time for any reason..."? Also, I think the interest rate is given as Prime + a percentage so if we get the inflation many worry about only 20% will look like a screaming deal."
You missed the point entirely. I don't pay interest so it does not really affect me. The point is that their business model is garbage and they are making me (a taxpayer) finance their lunacy. They all deserve to go bust. Instead, they take money out of my pocket to pay for the money they lost loaning it to deadbeats and I am rightly sick of it.
It is quite a shift indeed to have the credit card providers agree to settle for half the amount the delinquents have to pay. I think this is good news for those who owe money but before they celebrate they should check what ramification this will have on their credit score.
Evelyn Guzman
Debt Challenger
If you're a tenant, a lease option is almost never a good idea. But in the present period it can be a disaster. Usually a tenant puts up $5-20K in option money and pays an increased rent to the landlord in exchange for a set sale price at the end of the option period. If the sale price agreed on is greater than the market price, however, the tenant will not be able to obtain a mortgage for the sale price (having already paid something that's supposed to be a "down payment") and will have to raise additional money to exercise the option. More importantly, however, many landlords who are facing foreclosure are offering lease options in order to get the option money and increased rent. Unless you've drawn the agreement very carefully and the landlord still has money, you may never see your option money again. I've had several tenants tell me that they were offered lease options on properties that very soon thereafter went into foreclosure.
PeonInChief -
Nice points, along with the point that contracts seem to be being ripped up when push comes to shove now days.
Right now I'm pretty happy trusting no one and building up my reserves to fight another day so to speak.
NorkaWest:
Are these people using "Vertical Integration" in some nonstandard way? Or is there some structure that they are describing that isn't obvious to laymen?
Vertically Integrated companies are those which own multiple stages of the production process. Example: Mine -> Smelter -> Castings -> Sales. That chain can involve four companies (not vertically integrated) or less than four (in which case one or more is vertically integrated). These people are talking about international trade as a vertically integrated stucture, which makes no sense. Are they claiming that an Apple manufacturing plant in Singapore feeding Apple sales in the US is still vertical integration, but somehow exposed internationally? Any help with interpretation is appreciated.