In the case of Detroit it may make sense to not stop with the abandoned buildings.

3-4 years ago I suggested that ultimately High Desert and Inland Empire communities would be best served by bulldozing every other house on every street. Doesn't sound as crazy now as it did then.

We are off. . .

Sorry from last thread:
I lifted this from streeteasy.com, which tracks sales in NYC. This is just for condos, not coops, townhouses etc. Hopefuly, it will stay formatted. Site is great for watching the inventory build-up, and the days an apt. is listed, then relisted by another brokerage. Seriously, compared to Cali, we have a long way to go.

Manhattan Condo Listings Snapshot
Size (ft²) $ per ft² Price
Studio 536 1,130 599,000
1 BR 791 1,105 870,000
2 BR 1,307 1,232 1,645,000
3 BR 2,000 1,470 3,030,000
4+ BR 3,089 1,699 5,500,000
Medians for listings from past 60 days from StreetEasy data. Excludes some extraordinary properties. No representation is made as to the accuracy of this data.

Here is the same chart from 8/6/08
Downtown Condo Listings Snapshot

Size (ft²) $ per ft² Price

Studio 662 1,351 850,000
1 BR 834 1,303 1,170,000
2 BR 1,427 1,444 2,150,000
3 BR 2,248 1,624 3,775,000
4+ BR 3,374 1,979 8,200,000

Whee!!!

Six Flags Seeks Bankruptcy to Cut Debt $1.8 Billion (Update1)
Six Flags Seeks Bankruptcy to Cut Debt $1.8 Billion (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

By Dawn McCarty and Steven Church

June 13 (Bloomberg) -- Six Flags Inc., the owner of 20 theme parks, sought bankruptcy protection 3 1/2 years after Washington Redskins owner Daniel Snyder become chairman and hired new managers in an attempt to return it to profitability.

The Chapter 11 petition filed in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Wilmington, Delaware, listed assets of $3 billion and debt of $2.4 billion as of Dec. 31. Thirty-six affiliates also sought protection.

Green shoots, indeed!

Those green shoots grow into tumbleweeds.

C

Winston,
Yes but something they don't understand is that density comes with costs. Detroit implicitly acknowledges this by claiming they can't provide city class services to partial neighborhoods. Dense urban neighborhoods are municipal empire building. One of the reasons we had the great suburban diaspora was to escape the costs and urban ills of high density. Sure we traded for a new set of problems but for near a half century now both expressed and revealed preferences show a desire for suburban problems.

Yeah it doesn't smell right. For my entire life there's been a homeless problem in my city, and very rarely have rents decreased, as they are doing now.

Yes, I've met homeless people who said they were arrested for vagrancy in red state x, and given a choice of jail or a one way bus ticket to New York City.

Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 11:01 am
I find it amusing that metros over the past 20 years were annexing every township and muni within reach to grow the tax base, but now that the bill for the services is coming due, they are trying to shed the responsibility as fast as they can. County govs are going to take a hit if this catches on.

I find it amusing that metros over the past 20 years were annexing every township and muni within reach to recapture the fleeing tax base...

There fixed that for you.

I should have been more specific:

Green shoots (of grass), indeed!

I actually like this idea. It will be a real challenge to figure out what to do with the people who remain, but reclaiming some unproductive (for societal uses) land for nature is a definite "go" in my book. In my experience, these kinds of rationalizations make sense... At least they do in business. Just imagine what we could accomplish if we actrually bulldoze unprofitable, unproductive businesses in this country!

Pls don't mistake this to mean I support healthcare rationing, because I don't.

Now, for some snark:
Maybe we can create jobs for people to create parks and greenspaces out of the bulldozed land. We can just print some money to pay them and get free some parkland. Bonus!

/snark off

What do you tell someone who is perfectly happy living in their hovel on the outskirts of town? "We're bulldozing your entire neighborhood, but here is a vacant hovel closer to the center of the city." Just move your life...

Not a lawyer, however, immanent domain?

"I find it amusing that metros over the past 20 years were annexing every township and muni within reach to recapture the fleeing tax base..."

I tend to blame parent and teachers unions. If those people without kids can vote with their feet and move to a district that does schools on the cheap and passes the savings on to the property owner by moving 3 mi down the road, it puts an upper limit on taxes.

Rob,
Did you see this one? You're an old JP boy, aren't you?

Jamaica Plain > Best City Life - Boston Best Readers Poll 

10 years ago, a friend of mine opened a video store in the wrong part of JP. A year later he shut the door and ran for his life.

lost-confused, that would be eminent domain, but the Just Compensation Clause does require that persons having their property taken receive FMV for the property. Who can afford to pay for that?

The person planning the geographical downsizing is not thinking in those terms, but rather in terms of a swap of houses.

is learnt and learned interchangeable?

I have a hard time recalling seeing "learnt" in writing outside of some older books that were liberally peppered with "reckon" and the like.

Of course, some people always seem to get a sweetheart deal:

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc., the Wall Street firm that earned $2.3 billion last year, stands to get up to $321 million if the state and city fail to meet construction and security deadlines at the World Trade Center site.

Goldman May Get $321 Million on Missed Trade Center Deadlines - Bloomberg.com

Well done Pataki. I take it they rewarded you sufficiently.

Burning Down The House:

Watch out
You might get what youre after
Cool babies
Strange but not a stranger
Im an ordinary guy
Burning down the house

Hold tight wait till the partys over
Hold tight were in for nasty weather
There has got to be a way
Burning down the house

Heres your ticket pack your bag: time for jumpin overboard
The transportation is here
Close enough but not too far, maybe you know where you are
Fightin fire with fire

All wet
Hey you might need a raincoat
Shakedown
Dreams walking in broad daylight
Three hun-dred six-ty five de-grees
Burning down the house

It was once upon a place sometimes I listen to myself
Gonna come in first place
People on their way to work baby what did you except
Gonna burst into flame

My house
Sout of the ordinary
Thats might
Dont want to hurt nobody
Some things sure can sweep me off my feet
Burning down the house

No visible means of support and you have not seen nuthin yet
Everythings stuck together
I dont know what you expect starring into the tv set
Fighting fire with fire

Nice. Maybe they can use the Berlin model and make nice hills for sking in Detroit from the rubble.

Detroit needs a lot of cleaning up one way or another...

sportsfan,

just pay a cheap price for their house due to the loss of value and the loss of city services and then turn around and sell them a different house within the new city services at a higher price. The city cuts costs in services rendered, REhores get business...

By the way, a story from 40 years ago...a business didn't want to pay city taxes so he built is building outside of the city limits of San Antonio, TX....Well, the building caught fire and the city fire department refused to cross the city limits to put out the fire...to make a short story long, the building burnt down and the insurance company refused to pay on the claim...

Unintended consequences...

"Yeah but gold could have done the same thing and at a macro level and no paperwork."

Being tied to a single commodity seems like an opportunity for speculative abuse. A basket of commodities or PM's seems smarter.

New Orleans is trying a variant of this in the lower 9th. They have drawn a line and said areas beyond will not receive City Services. Believe it or not there are developers building beyond the boundary!

I believe learnt is the Queen's English.

Can a city just cut off city services to a designated part of the city? Wouldn't that raise some Equal Protection claims?

Certainly a city can eliminate some city services to the whole city, but to do it only to certain neighborhoods?

sportsfan,

If a city can incorporate/annex more land, it would seem logical they could unincorporate areas too. But I'm sure there would be lawsuits. The whole process would be litigious I am sure, but then, what isn't?

Building beyond the boundary, whether the Ninth Ward or City Limits, would seem like asking to be sued by people who buy the developed property and then expect to receive the services their little hearts desire.

The guy who built outside San Antonio is a different story, of course, because he probably lied on his insurance application and identified the city fire department or stated that he was inside the city.

Well, the building caught fire and the city fire department refused to cross the city limits.

That seems a little more radical than refusing to cross a picket line.

Rent Control IMO increases rents because it keeps supply off the market. Rent stabilization on the other hand makes rents cheaper but conditions very bad.

I was thinking we could try this Flint, Michigan approach with the entire state of Texas. And Orange County, California.

Why not do Texas twice just to make sure we bulldoze the entire state flat?

This idea from Flint seems to have a lot of applications.

James Kunstler (I know, I know) has been suggesting this will have to be done eventually to places like Phoenix

The entire city?
That would awesome but a nuke would be easier.

If a city can incorporate/annex more land, it would seem logical they could unincorporate areas too.

I was thinking about that also, but I'm not so sure it would easy to jettison an area once incorporated.

Unless the next higher political subdivision, e.g., the county, was willing to accept the area, how could it be done?

I've heard of entire cities dissolving their charter so that the city no longer exists.

A little food for thought:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Seems like these folks had some good ideas way back when.

Elephants and Asses
Trampling the Masses

Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 11:35 am
Evergreen turns to brown...
"According to regulators, Evergreen Ultra Short Opportunities overstated its net asset value by as much as 17% due to improperly valuing some mortgage-backed securities in its portfolio."
These things ended up selling for pennies on the dollar. How many Municipalities have overvalued securities in their pension funds by 20%.

That's assuming the pension funds bought only 1x exposure and didn't do what the big banks did with Advent last week. Odds? If the past is prologue I'm positive that many many pension funds doubled down on can't lose schemes like CDS in an attempt to get back recent losses. Municipal Enrons in the offing.

Some of the newer developments here in Ca will not need to be bulldozed.They are so badly built that they will fall apart on their own within a very few years.

Tim 2012,

Think of jobs that will be lost in the six flags bankruptcy.

How much did the buggy whip manufacturers get in the latest bailout package?
Think of the jobs that could be lost.
Adapt or Die!

Wait until they have to really bulldoze parts of the 'New West'

Don't have to waste the time and energy. If they don't just fall apart, as Tom Stone suggested, then in my area the desert will reclaim the land in a few decades.

Sportsfan-

I'm actually thinking the alternative energy guys can buy it up. All of their money isfrom the government at this time anyways.

Before the Detroit riots in '67 the concept of bulldozing every 2nd house was in the air. As I recall, the automakers (some union locals even) were considering underwriting part of it.

After the riots the attitude was 'let it burn'. Detroit never came back.

"We can simply shift from selling houses to each other over and over again to direct-selling personal hygene products. "

At least we'll smell better.

I've made a few real-world additions....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal
except for the extremely wealthly and politically connected who are more equal than the peasants

that they are endowed by their Creator
except for atheists

with certain unalienable Rights
which courts and governments may override for their own reasons

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
if these rights do not conflict with the goals of local, regional, state and federal governments.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men
of the ruling elites

deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed
members of the ruling elites, wealthy and corporate executives.

• splat

I'm actually thinking the alternative energy guys can buy it up.

The alternative energy guys, at least the sunpower crowd, loves the desert, but prefers flat land for focusing their arrays.

The windpower crowd hasn't been as interested. Apparently, there's wind everywhere, so no relative advantage.

Bankers or terrorists,

A few hundred nukes on population centers in the middle east would convince them that oil is only 10$/B. At least those who are still alive in that region.

I don't know why everyone busts on Phoenix.

Ex-wife lives there.
Good enuf reason?

broward,
My "business meetings" these days consist of bumping iPhones and emailing PDFs.

@ Broward

Here buddy:

sanityclause, no heightened level of scrutiny for homeowners, no doubt about that. Still, If I buy a house within the city limits, I don't see how the city can subsequently eliminate city services in my area, but not in the city as a whole.

What Norlins is doing can probably be justified under emergency powers and common good principles, but to do that just for economic purposes, e.g., budget balancing, wouldn't fly very far IMO.

Edit: also, I don't think they would be free to keep the property. The idea being proposed, as I understand it, is to clear cut parts of the city.

Looks like my whole grand scheme for a new megalopolis called "California City" in the middle of the southern half of the state may not be working out... Bummer, laid out all the streets, locale for a nice park, etc....

@ which

Yes, I'm well aware of that fact.

Beer me!

ma (profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 11:52 am
You must be visiting family if you're stopping in Boston on the way to Montreal. Montreal...well you know...I'm married anyway so what's the difference?

Yup, that and medical.

bumping iPhones

Palm had it first, it was part of the 1999 Java One conference.

Ate breakfast with a cousin I haven't seen in 25 years, she has five kids aged 6 to 16.
I'm shocked that all of them know how to shoot and she seems to have morphed into a States righter.

Wow.
Still kind of shocked.
I didn't start shooting until I was eleven.

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists (profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 11:57 am

Yeah that is the problem with PHX....everyone living in Sunrise and commuting to downtown or Tempe is becoming like living in Scranton and commuting to Manhattan. The urban core, and the 5 people who live there, are fine. Love the empty light rail.

I was on the light rail yesterday at 3pm and it was packed westbound by the time we got to 44th street. Students, people headed to the ball game early, people coming from the airport, people knocking off of work early. Ridership numbers are blowing out (absurdly low due to gaming the federal grant system) predictions by 4x.

Big Deal
I think that it is harder in NYC, especially Manhattan (South of 96th Street that is)
to find "typical" RE as it varies so quickly from street to street. The Condo market is also limited in scope because of the large number of co-op buildings (In a Condo you own your own space. In a coop you own shares of stock in the whole building and have a right to live and sell a particular unit. Coop board if directors controls who can buy in and other stuff. Coops usually have more established owners)
Condo crowd more transient. If you cant afford to live in Manhattan then these folks head for the boroughs. But as Manhattan Condo prices soften, they is a large and ready market waiting to leave the boroughs.
Real problem is the markets in the boroughs which got overbuilt.

Case-Schiller is less useful for NYC then most other places since the single -family home data misses most of the large core area.

Well, you'd have a equal protection claim, it's just you'd never win. If they want to bulldoze (instead of just cutting off your services) there'd be a taking. Perhaps no water and power is enough for no possible economic use, but I'm not sure.

Blackhalo, by protection against discrimination, do you mean due process? I'm sure there'll be plenty of notice and chance to be heard. They wouldn't be that stupid. Substantive due process would not cover this.

This reminds me of old lithographs depicting goats grazing in the ruins of the Roman Forum.

The Storm Is Coming, a reading:

pavel.libsyn.com

Tim I'm referring to specific laws in NYC. "Control" and "Stabilization" are different versions of the same thing, from different years. Of course rent control limits the upside for someone looking to build a new skyscrpaper. Most localities control their density with zoning laws and other regulations; there is no real free market.

If you don't like like rent control, you're free to build elsewhere. NYC has historically had a relatively transient population, but there are limits to the benefits from that. Rent control follows from electricity, water, gas price controls. Part monopoly-busting, part fixed-rate mortgage -- no money down, no equity ever gained.

Still, If I buy a house within the city limits, I don't see how the city can subsequently eliminate city services in my area, but not in the city as a whole.

IMO, there's no EPC violation because technically there's no application of the law if the city decides to dis-incorporate an area. It's not like the city is saying "we won't provide X service because you belong to a suspect class, but we'll provide X service to a non-suspect class person." The city is simply saying "we won't provide service because we don't have jurisdiction over you."

Song about this very thing: YouTube - David Byrne- Nothing but Flowers

kinda sucks without Johnny Marr... but, then, so does the entire discography of Morrissey

NYC Rent control and rent stabilization folk in fact have almost no effect on the rest of the RE market as no body leaves these mostly way below market rent units. They have perpetually renewable leases with limited raises.
Since they can be passed on to those names on the lease it becomes a game getting your name on the lease. A current favorite is to say you are gay ( a gay but not straight lover has the rights of a spouse to get on the lease). Bring in a lease buyer, both sort of share the space for a while, then when buyer gets on lease, you move taking huge amt of "key money"

Apparently, disincorporation is being considered by a few cities:

Towns Rethink Self-Reliance as Finances Worsen

The only thing I could find on diminishing a city's limits only applies in a pretty rural setting:

Missouri Revised Statutes

In California all I could find on the subject of changing a city's limits involved either annexation or consolidation (along with disincorporation), but nothing on diminishing a city's limits while keeping the city as a city.

HollywoodHack (homepage, profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 12:19 pm

b...b...but... the 14 is going to be where the bullet train crosses the mountain!
Palmdale - city of the future in more ways than you can imagine...

There's an interesting political dynamic evolving around CAHSR. It's almost as if nothing south of Fresno exists. The SF pols are quietly hijacking the train for SF Area service first and foremost. i suspect that when the plan starts to unravel the money will go towards regional commuter rail for just them.

maybe they should focus their energies on getting the bart from fremont to downtown san jose... which the voters approved overwhelmingly a decade ago

Mr Kildee said he will concentrate on 50 cities, identified in a recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with their declining fortunes.

Yes just bulldoze deteriorating infrastructure without addressing the plethora of economic problems like job growth etc

Another jackass employed at lala land thinktank

I suppose this is the ten-cents on the dollar discussion; but how does the government repay those who get their structures bulldozed?

(If I were to answer that I would quote "Forrest Gump"... 'In the buttocks, sir!')

The question still standsin a serious manner...

Interesting question. Would the procedure be self-governed by the city'scorporate charter or pursuant to state law? I'll check.

"Let's bulldoze 'thinktanks' because they operate in an alternate universe and they're a waste of $$$ ."

As an entity that provides cover for the advances of contributors underlying political agenda, I bet they are worth every penny. Plus, how else would one keep the PhD's with not practical application or real world experience, employed?

@ Externalized Costs (profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 12:36 pm
much more practical and productive ideas because
a) you don;t work for a thinktank that is
b) funded by corporate oligarchs
More pork sausages please

@ Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Sat, 6/13/2009 - 12:38 pm
Bingo - see my comment right above

Basel, here's the full Wiki entry on Peerless Park:

"Peerless Park, Missouri is a former, disincorporated town located at the junction of Interstate 44 and Route 141 in St. Louis County. It was incorporated in 1935, and by the 1980s, the majority of the town was businesses and its population did not exceed 50. At the request of its citizens, the town was disincorporated in 1999."

It looks like a complete disincorporation.

That does raise an interesting alternative, though. Suppose we get together and disincorporate our whole town, then, once that's final, petition to reincorporate only the good parts.

Do you think the pols would see that one coming!

One opinion:

"My City Was Gone
Tuesday, June 2, 2009 at 11:30am

"Mr. Knox, a bankruptcy consultant to Vallejo, said shifting oversight of a city's services to a county or state during the current economic environment would be a tall order. In California and many other states, the county or state must approve such a move, he said. Most counties are ailing as badly as cities, and are unlikely to readily approve a disincorporation, he said."

Hi fellow bloggers. I ordered some mortgage pig wear a few weeks ago. Does anyone know how long it takes to receive it? TIA

A complete disincorporation.

How appropriate for 2009.
.
.

we're going to come to a crash stop due to money crisis long before any of this lunatic stupidity goes far.

We can only hope.
I knew it would crash but I didn't think it would get so kooky and last so long.

My post was Ruin'd:

50 cities, identified in a recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with their declining fortunes.

And another new multi-billion $ per year federal agency to help save the locals with even more top-down expertise and efficiency.

Going back to Missouri again, a 1989 AG opinion says it can be done.

It is the opinion of this office that a constitutional charter city has the power to alter its boundaries so as to exclude territory from its corporate limits and such city is empowered to develop its own procedures to accomplish this.

Attorney General's Opinion No. 102-89

Department of Homeland Sizability

President Barack Obama said the government can save $313 billion over the next 10 years by forcing greater efficiency in Medicare, demanding better prices from drugmakers and cutting the number of uninsured Americans.

You figure that the upside for Rx prices is now limited and there is more downside to big pharma than upside.

"We can only hope.
I knew it would crash but I didn't think it would get so kooky and last so long."

Starting to seem like pre-TARP Bush/Paulson levels of desperation. Desperate times call for desperate measures?

Some investor guy

The rumor is that Oakland CA has already hired BK consultants...

Anyone think that China doesn't just go into N korea and overthrow their gov't. I mean no one would stop them or be angry and the people are starving right (?) so they might not be too upset.

there is more downside to big pharma than upside.

Merck is the new GM?

"especially in order to change union agreements or work rules. To shed jobs, benefits, and lower pay."

Don't forget the bondholding suckers.

Which is why Ginsburg, Stevens and Breyer may team up with the Reagan/Bush Justices and not let Chrysler play fast and loose with BK.

A "Post Oak Bluff" is Doyle Brunson's term for betting such a small amount that it looks like you're very strong.

"Nearly 700,000 calls were received by a federal hot line this week from people confused about the nationwide switch from analog to digital TV broadcasts that occurred Friday."

One hopes they all run out to RSH to buy a tuner and a beefier antenna.

One would think a resident of an area paying taxes to a city would have a theoretical right to a share of the assets of that city, so that a disincorporation could be a taking under certain facts.

Ten Things That Could Still Go Wrong with the Economy

Ten Things That Could Still Go Wrong with the Economy: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

Good summary I could only think of 5

Not sure if that would cover the case where we built this city on rock and roll.

There was some talk a few years back about the San Fernando Valley of the City of LA separating from the remainder....It was the politicos of each area unsatisfied with such things as the school districts (it all comes down to money...) The talk died off, someone must have been bought off...

I have no doubt she's underqualified, but there are sound historical reasons why elected officials should not have as much qualification to hold office as civil servants.

lost-confused

It was a fakeout of demographic shift where the economy in the valley was booming and LA was kinda blah in comparison and they wanted more control over their tax revenues. The housing bust put an end to that talk. All IMO of course

yogi writes: "Which is why Ginsburg, Stevens and Breyer may team up with the Reagan/Bush Justices and not let Chrysler play fast and loose with BK."

I bow to your superior wisdom. No prediction from volker. volker dumbass.

yogi, it;s kind of like putting Larry Craig in charge of bathroom security!

speaking of studying for the bar... anyone want to know how ridiculous higher education is?

I have a friend that spent $150K on four years of undergraduate school. Another $120K for 3 years of law school. Yet, she has to pay $4K for bar review classes, because aside from her first year of law school, the other 6 did nothing to prepare her for the bar...

mmckinl

Unfortunately I think you are right. At the height of the boom less than 8% of taxes were going to infrastructure. What do you think that 8% will look like with tax revenues down 15-25%.

Well that's admittedly speculation. I am not well-read on BK law, but we all will be soon.

Basel want a Multi- tip?

Mass bankruptcies are the only workable path going forward ...

Without relief of debt the whole enchilada blows up ...

$50 trillion of aggregate debt is not serviceable ...

i want a Multi tip!!!

imaginary scenario...

Chinese Financial Crisis: The global downturn has helped expose the fragility of the Chinese economic miracle, and worse might be coming.

A collapse of profits in China could very well spark a banking crisis, much like the collapse of real estate prices did to US financial institutions. Very little attention has been paid to the fragility of the Chinese financial system, which is dominated by large, slow, non-transparent, often corrupt state-run banks and centralized decision making. Slowing exports could be the tide that goes out and reveals which Chinese banks have been swimming naked. And the Chinese financial system, which has almost no effective securitization and therefore high concentrations of financial risk, is much less prepared to deal bank failures than the US was.

mmckinl: that is why jubilee is my prediction, of course, I could be wrong.

. . . speaking of studying for the bar..

I spent that summer on the beach in Santa Monica.

I figured it was Pass/Fail and, if I didn't already know enough to pass, I deserved to fail.

I still dont understand how an unsecured creditor can be placed ahead of a secured creditor in a bk

I don't think "secured" means what you thought it did (anymore).

Yes because A
Yes because B
No because C
No because D

You're pretty confident on yes or no, must guess on which of the two.

Pick the one you think is wrong,. Yes, they're trying to trick you.

My practice scores shot up as soon as I realized it. I did quite well.

I've given up looking for any authority for cities to de-annex, diminish boundaries or otherwise take actions that cut off services to certain parts of town. I don't think it exists outside of special situations involving no residents, residents who want out, land being re-annexed by a different city, or accepted by the county, usually for development, and so on.

If a city wants to diminish the services it provides, it would appear to have to do so across the board, i.e., in a non-discriminatory fashion. The idea that a city can simply stop picking up the trash in a certain part of town looks DOA.

volker the viking

mmckinl: that is why jubilee is my prediction, of course, I could be wrong.

~~~~

The Jubilee will come in the form of inflation, then a new US currency ...

Will not happen IMO ...

There will either be an orderly conversion of debt to equity or haircut ...

Or a disorderly economic meltdown ...

Surprised no one has mentioned that there are whole countries with this kind of problem. Japan, Russia, Ukraine, and Italy have large population declines in their not too distant future.

mmckinl: machts nict, either way it goes down, the net effect is the same

I am not confident they can engineer an orderly unwind.

well duh!

The original context was cutting off areas, a la CR's blog post.

Take as many old tests as are published. Try my technique. Retake every q you get wrong in the week before the test, and go over why the right answer is correct even if you remember the letter.

Downsizing works only after the debt burden is extinguished. CA is already past stall speed - needs growth to service the existing debt...

mmckinl writes: "Without leadership this crisis only gets much worse ..."

The difference between the Boy Scouts and Congress is the Boy Scouts have adult leadership.

mmckinl writes: "Governments need to take back their right to produce their own money debt free

and use the profits and prerogatives of currency and credit creation to benefit the populace

through lower taxes and better benefits ... "

Wah? I'm part of the 98% I'm not Mensa, I'm a densa. Maybe you could explain this.

OT but Iran seems to be having a coup.
Guess it will effect oil prices.

There are anti-Ayatollah Shia in Iraq who just might join with a resistance movement

Major Irani pipelines near Iraqi border.

Downsizing works only after the debt burden is extinguished.

Downsizing also works rather well to cut future expenses. From the article I liked 200+ comments ago:

VICTORVILLE • City Manager Jim Cox is proposing to layoff between 120 and 140 employees, slash all salaries by nearly 8 percent and cut a slew of other benefits in order to close a $13 million gap in Victorville’s budget.

The layoffs could mean losing 24 percent of the city’s full-time staff and more than 16 percent of its part-time staff.

I'd call that downsizing in a big way.

volker the viking

Lincoln’s Monetary Breakthrough

The bankers had Lincoln’s government over a barrel, just as Wall Street has Congress in its vice-like grip today. The North needed money to fund a war, and the bankers were willing to lend it only under circumstances that amounted to extortion, involving staggering interest rates of 24 to 36 percent. Lincoln saw that this would bankrupt the North and asked a trusted colleague to research the matter and find a solution. In what may be the best piece of advice ever given to a sitting President, Colonel Dick Taylor of Illinois reported back that the Union had the power under the Constitution to solve its financing problem by printing its money as a sovereign government. Taylor said:

“Just get Congress to pass a bill authorizing the printing of full legal tender treasury notes . . . and pay your soldiers with them and go ahead and win your war with them also. If you make them full legal tender . . . they will have the full sanction of the government and be just as good as any money; as Congress is given that express right by the Constitution.”

The Greenbacks actually were just as good as the bankers’ banknotes. Both were created on a printing press, but the banknotes had the veneer of legitimacy because they were “backed” by gold. The catch was that this backing was based on “fractional reserves,” meaning the bankers held only a small fraction of the gold necessary to support all the loans represented by their banknotes. The “fractional reserve” ruse is still used today to create the impression that bankers are lending something other than mere debt created with accounting entries on their books.1

Lincoln took Col. Taylor’s advice and funded the war by printing paper notes backed by the credit of the government. These legal-tender U.S. Notes or “Greenbacks” represented receipts for labor and goods delivered to the United States. They were paid to soldiers and suppliers and were tradeable for goods and services of a value equivalent to their service to the community. The Greenbacks aided the Union not only in winning the war but in funding a period of unprecedented economic expansion. Lincoln’s government created the greatest industrial giant the world had yet seen. The steel industry was launched, a continental railroad system was created, a new era of farm machinery and cheap tools was promoted, free higher education was established, government support was provided to all branches of science, the Bureau of Mines was organized, and labor productivity was increased by 50 to 75 percent. The Greenback was not the only currency used to fund these achievements; but they could not have been accomplished without it, and they could not have been accomplished on money borrowed at the usurious rates the bankers were attempting to extort from the North.

Lincoln succeeded in restoring the government’s power to issue the national currency, but his revolutionary monetary policy was opposed by powerful forces. The threat to established interests was captured in an editorial of unknown authorship, said to have been published in The London Times in 1865:

“If that mischievous financial policy which had its origin in the North American Republic during the late war in that country, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off its debts and be without debt. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.”

Lincoln was assassinated in 1865. According to historian W. Cleon Skousen:

“Right after the Civil War there was considerable talk about reviving Lincoln’s brief experiment with the Constitutional monetary system. Had not the European money-trust intervened, it would have no doubt become an established institution.”

Web of Debt - REVIVE LINCOLN’S MONETARY POLICY: AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA

Uh, I do not volunteer to help count ballots as I did in Minnesota.

1 currency now -yogi

"mmckinl we've been through this debate:

I'm with you on taxing consumption, especially luxuries, but printing money to pay back a debt is fraud. It's not just the Chinese wage slave that gets screwed."

~~~~

Read "Lincoln's Monetary Breakthrough"

Web of Debt - REVIVE LINCOLN’S MONETARY POLICY: AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA

Basically the printed money is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States ... through taxes ...

That we should have to borrow from private bankers our own money is absurd ...

Lincoln did not invent government-issued paper money. Rather, he restored a brilliant innovation of the American colonists. According to Benjamin Franklin, it was the colonists’ home-grown paper “scrip” that was responsible for the remarkable abundance in the colonies at a time when England was suffering from the ravages of the Industrial Revolution. Like with Lincoln’s Greenbacks, this prosperity posed a threat to the control of the British Crown and the emerging network of private British banks, prompting the King to ban the colonists’ paper money and require the payment of taxes in gold. According to Franklin and several other historians of the period, it was these onerous demands by the Crown, and the corresponding collapse of the colonists’ paper money supply, that actually sparked the Revolutionary War.2

volker the viking

"knew that, just have a difficult time coming to terms with the workability of same"

~~~~

Simple ...

.... the money is printed then taxed back so that too much money doesn't get into circulation ...

Why should we let bankers print 10x the deposits they hold ... that is what causes depreciation of our money

more and more money in circulation

... until the crisis hits and the bankers cut off credit and the whole Ponzi Scheme crashes ...

so do away with fractional reserve banking?

This is never going to end.
It's going to become more complex and convoluted, year after year.

Nobody will be able to figure out the rules for anything, it will be a staggered mess of continuously grandfathered legislation and spending programs layered over with new ones as industries slowly collapse. You'll need to know who you, where you are, where you were, when it happened, all the associations of the time, how they've changed, what new changes have changed....

It will be like GM's parts department times 1000.

Maybe you made a mistake, Hoopdajoop.

Fiat money is NOT the problem ...

Fractional Reserve Banking is the problem !

I was waiting for that response.

Hundreds of years of history confirm the correlation of the credit cycle / collapse and fractional lending.
But thousands of years of history confirm that governments always debase currency.

broward: I was leading the witness.

@ Broward

Yep.
Financial Terrorism
Trillions of FRN suicide bombers.

Go long Starbucks, MLM meeting place of choice<i/>

Glod, Broward. That's funny.

I don't mind some deficit spending for growth. But pay for it by taxing or borrowing at honest terms, not printing. Under your system, Timmy could still print trillions, overpay for whatever "services" Haliburton pretends to offer, and under-count inflation to screw workers and savers.

starbucks is going to be acquired by amway, lots and lots of synergy there

Go long Starbucks, MLM meeting place of choice

Not this MLM. Their coffee sucks.

Donovan - Universal Soldier

1 currency now -yogi "

I don't mind some deficit spending for growth. But pay for it by taxing or borrowing at honest terms, not printing. Under your system, Timmy could still print trillions, overpay for whatever "services" Haliburton pretends to offer, and under-count inflation to screw workers and savers."

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Currency and credit creation under a Greenback approach would be set by a monetary board ... not one man ...

Colonial Script ... wiki

"Colonial scrip was not backed by gold or silver and therefore the colonies could control its purchasing power. This was similar to the "tally stick" system used by the British Empire for over 700 years. It was different from the conventional European mercantilist system of money which required governments to borrow from banks and pay interest for those loans, as gold and silver were the only regarded forms of money. Colonial scrip, were "bills of credit" created by the government, based on the credit of that government, and this meant that there was no interest to pay for the introduction of money. This went a considerable way towards defraying the expense of the Colonial governments and in maintaining prosperity. The Governments charged low interest when it loaned out this paper money to its citizens, with land as collateral, and this interest income lowered the tax burden on the people, contributing to prosperity.
The currency was born when a lack of gold and silver in the Colonies made trade hard to conduct, and a barter system prevailed. One by one, the Colonies began to issue their own paper money to serve as a medium of exchange to make trade vibrant. The Governments could then retire excess notes out of circulation by taxing the people, helping some colonies generally avoid inflation. Each colony had its own currency and some were better managed than others. It was banned by English Parliament in the Currency Act after Benjamin Franklin had explained the benefits of this currency to the British Board of Trade. Outlawing the circulating medium caused a depression in the colonies, and Franklin and many others believed it to be the true cause of the American Revolution."

Instead of backing the currency with land it would be backed by the taxing power of the Federal Government ... just as fractional reserve banking is now ... but without debt and without banks being able to create 10X the money out of thin air ...

we'll need to hang more than a few

and the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve has not debased our currency?

Of course they've devalued our currency.

It's....

paper.

"...with land as collateral..."

Which will suddenly become available after we bulldoze a bunch of cities.

IF the Federal Reserve has not been audited, then how does the IRS know they've fulfilled their tax obligations?

Yeah.

Hey, has anyone "seen" Ross lately? Wonder how those heifers are doin?

"Governments charged low interest when it loaned out this paper money to its citizens, with land as collateral, ..."

It still does, under FNM, FRE, FHA, etc., all created because market rates were too high. I'm all for eliminating the Fed, but that won't solve our debt problems.

Guess that would be Mary-Nam, and Virgini-YEEHAA!

Some very good bridges to cope with the approaching columns of citizens.

C

The more I watch this fiatsco, the more I see "measurement" as a Schrödinger's cat.
Choose carefully what you want to measure because it changes the thing you measure.

Issuing credit created the need to have grades of credit.
Grades of credit relied on measurements.
Those measurements led to widespread gaming of measurements by credit users.
The gaming of measurements created false confidence that the measurements were working.

Then The Thing Collapses because the measurements don't accurately reflect reality.

It's an interesting problem.
I've seen it several times in different forms.

HomeGnome

"IF the Federal Reserve has not been audited, then how does the IRS know they've fulfilled their tax obligations?
Yeah."

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The Federal Reserve acts like a holding company for the 12 Federal Reserve banks ...

Member Banks get a 6% dividend on their stock ...

Past that we don't know because they have never truly been audited ...

Hence the House Bill by Ron Paul to audit them !

broward: Is it a conundrum?

I voted for Ron Paul

But all I got was change.

"pavel: you may have to move "

To confuse the Federal government with the city of Washington is to commit a solecism. We don't even have congressional voting representation.

"Currency and credit creation under a Greenback approach would be set by a monetary board ... not one man ..."

Why not by every producer of value in the world?

FRN's have serial numbers. In theory, they are thus traceable. A more reliable currency would really be traceable. Every transaction recorded to a shared open database. Privacy built back in.

A more reliable currency would really be traceable.

By definition a traceable currency has no privacy

"pavel - from memory you're near Ft Reno."

We're about fifteen minutes by car from Fort Reno. Nothing much left there of the old fortification. But we do hike almost every day right past Fort Derussy. It's in my forthcoming book, Animal Kingdom:

TO COVER THE WOUNDS

Within the old fort, in the woods overgrown
Near the mound where they buried the magazine
To store their cruel iron a thicket grows -
A young doe naps in the afternoon

Behind the green leaves her rough bed hides
And winding wands secure her in shadow,
The air is grayish and cool inside,
Sun on the ramparts splashes yellow

A song bird’s whistle, she does not wake
Or stir at the warning until I draw near,
But then she unfolds her legs and takes
Umbrage at me though there’s nothing to fear

Then she could never have slept nearby
When the trees had been cleared for a field of flame,
And officers shouted and men would lie
In the rifle pits to take their aim

The long guns lofted their hundred pounds
And crashing, not song notes, came out of their mouths -
Better it is that the men are gone
And the fort in green leaf to cover the wounds

currency now -yogi

"Currency and credit creation under a Greenback approach would be set by a monetary board ... not one man ..."
Why not by every producer of value in the world?
FRN's have serial numbers. In theory, they are thus traceable. A more reliable currency would really be traceable. Every transaction recorded to a shared open database. Privacy built back in.

~~~~

Could you expound on this ?

I'm not quite sure what you mean ...

C in Marin, I heard that program too. It was about Akron, Ohio. But the model came from some of the Rhineland/Saxon industrial cities in Germany. It was quite interesting. I think some such population movement would be inevitable in Detroit as infrastructure fails and police and other services shrink and are concentrated elsewhere. I am interested in ancient and medieval history, and I always had trouble picturing the large Roman cities half abandoned. Increasingly, current events are giving my imagination an assist!

On Friday night, before official results emerged, Mousavi had claimed to be the "definite winner." He said many people had been unable to vote and ballot papers were lacking.

He also accused authorities of blocking text messaging, with which his campaign tried to reach young, urban voters.

On Saturday, Iran's students' news agency ISNA quoted Tehran's Deputy Prosecutor General Mahmoud Salarkia as saying 10 people had been detained for "agitating public opinion through websites and blogs by propagating untruthful reports."

Ahmadinejad draws most of his support from rural areas and poorer big city neighborhoods. Mousavi enjoys strong backing in wealthier urban centers, especially among women and the young.

Two other candidates attracted only minimal support.

Analysts expressed disbelief over the election result.

"I'm surprised at the regime's audacity in declaring such a large margin for Ahmadinejad, given that in the run-up, the momentum seemed to be in the other direction," said Fitzpatrick.

"The election results are incredible," said Ali Ansari at the Institute for Iranian Studies at St. Andrews University in Scotland. "If it was a genuine election landslide, surely people should be out on the streets in euphoria..."
Reuters

Mousavi was reported to have been prevented from seei ng the Ayatollah.

Unconfirmed reports out of Iran say former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has resigned as chairman of the powerful Expediency Council, which arbitrates disputes between the religious leadership (Council of Guardians) and the Majlis or parliament.

Rafsanjani also chairs the Assembly of Experts, and it's not clear if he will retain that position. That is the group that elects (and conceivably can remove) the religious Supreme Leader -- currently Ali Khamenei. If he keeps that post, it could set up an interesting dynamic.

Rafsanjani had solidly backed defeated presidential candidate Mir Hosein Mousavi, and was personally attacked for that by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. There are two possible interpretations of his (alleged) resignation: either it's a protest against Khamenei's acceptance of the disputed election result, or it's Khamenei and Ahmadinejad forcing him out to nip any protests in the bud. Or a little of both
TPM

Geithner: "Economic storm receding"

I'll get to it mmckinl

Pellice - I don't disagree...

C