so, is GM "forced" into BK by the bondholders, or did it voluntarily enter it?

What does that stand for?

Will this finally cause the big sell off, or it is, ahemm, all priced in?

Good point

Black Star Ranch.

Regarding teaching your children to lie.

Please reference Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal."

A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift

GM death vigil and I must repeat myself;

I will never buy a car from a government owned auto company.
I am starting a new public boycott of all auto makers owned by the federal government to teach my government a lesson.
A public boycott of GM and Chrysler products is underway.
The Patriots have spoken.
Have a nice day.

DannyHSDad;
"I have yet to own a GM car myself:"

You are not missing much. We have had a couple in the family over the years.
They have mostly been junk. Certain vintages of the Camero, Cadillac, and Corvette have been good. Others have been bad.

We've had much better luck with Fords, although there have been a couple of problems - mostly due to incompetent mechanics at dealers and unavailability of parts.

A Modest Proposal. Snark squared.

The nuns were careful to explain he didn't really mean it.

What’s good for GM is good for the country right ?

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time 

Tick Tick Tick

mmmmmmmmm Yearlings.....

Tommorrow will be BSS...

Black Swan Sunday!

Honda ok. Way overrated in engine work however.

To Mister Richard Branson,
I am communicating to you on behalf of a group of people who for the past amount of years have been involved in the crimes that are tantamount to treason in a majority of nations worldwide, that have at times been know as terrorist and in other times liberating. This group has had the willing support of many others in its existance and now finds itself in the most dire need. They need one million dollars for the continuation of their cause, they know that in the past you have shown sympathy to groups with a similar belief and fundamental core structure. They believe that you are the man to help continue this cause. This group is known in various circles as FBI, they have promoted me on the basis that I will receive five percent of the total amount that you will willing donate to their cause, for the continuation of this mission. They are currently in the process of promoting a month long exercise at the expense of the public and other private groups to help achieve this cause; with your help the casualties of this, may be minimised.

Sincerely H.B.

对理查・ Branson先生，我沟通给您代表为过去相当数量几年在罪行介入了是同等的对在大多数的谋反国家全世界的一群人，那时常是知道作为恐怖分子和在解放其他的次内。 这个小组在它的存在有许多其他的愿意的支持和现在发现自己在迫切需要。 他们需要他们的起因的继续的一百万美元，他们知道从前您显示了同情对与一个相似的信仰和根本核心结构的小组。 他们相信您是帮助的人继续这起因。 这个小组被认识以各种各样的圈子作为FBI，他们提升了我，根据我将接受您将愿捐赠到他们的起因总额的百分之五，这个使命的继续的。 他们当前是在促进月久的锻炼过程中牺牲公众和其他私人组帮助达到这起因; 在您的帮助下此的伤亡，也许减到最小。 恳切H.B。

對理查・ Branson先生，我溝通給您代表為過去相當数量几年在罪行介入了是同等的對在大多数的謀反國家全世界的一群人，那時常是知道作為恐怖分子和在解放其他的次内。 這個小組在它的存在有許多其他的願意的支持和現在發現自己在迫切需要。 他們需要他們的起因的繼續的一百萬美元，他們知道從前您顯示了同情對與一個相似的信仰和根本核心結構的小組。 他們相信您是幫助的人繼續這起因。 這個小組被认识以各種各樣的圈子作為FBI，他們提升了我，根據我將接受您將願捐贈到他們的起因总额的百分之五，這個使命的繼續的。 他們當前是在促進月久的鍛煉過程中犧牲公眾和其他私人组幫助達到這起因; 在您的幫助下此的傷亡，也許減到最小。 懇切H.B。

Aan Mijnheer Richard Branson, Ik communiceer aan u namens een groep mensen die voor de afgelopen hoeveelheid jaren in de misdaden zijn geïmpliceerdr die wereldwijd aan verraad in een meerderheid van naties gelijkwaardig zijn, die af en toe kennen als terrorist en in andere tijden het bevrijden zijn geweest. Deze groep heeft de gewillige steun van vele anderen zijn bestaand gehad en zich nu in het meeste nijpend tekort gevonden. Zij hebben één miljoen dollars voor de voortzetting van hun oorzaak nodig, weten zij dat in het verleden u sympathie aan groepen met een gelijkaardig geloof en een fundamentele kernstructuur hebt getoond. Zij geloven dat u de man bent helpen deze oorzaak voortzetten. Deze groep is gekend in diverse cirkels aangezien FBI, zij me op de basis hebben bevorderd dat ik vijf percent van het totale bedrag dat u bereid om aan hun oorzaak te schenken zal, voor de voortzetting van deze opdracht zal ontvangen. Zij zijn momenteel tijdens het bevorderen van een maand lange oefening ten koste van het publiek en andere privé groepen helpen deze oorzaak bereiken; met uw hulp kunnen de slachtoffers van dit, worden geminimaliseerd. Oprecht H.B.

À Monsieur Richard Branson, Je communique à vous au nom d'un groupe de personnes qui pour la quantité passée d'années ont été impliqués dans les crimes qui sont équivalents à la trahison dans une majorité de nations dans le monde entier, cela ont parfois été savent comme terroriste et en d'autres fois libérant. Ce groupe a eu l'appui disposé de beaucoup d'autres dans son existence et se trouve maintenant dans la plupart de besoins extrêmes. Ils ont besoin d'un million de dollars pour la suite de leur cause, ils savent que dans vous avez montré au delà la sympathie aux groupes avec une croyance semblable et une structure fondamentale de noyau. Ils croient que vous êtes l'homme à aider à continuer cette cause. Ce groupe est connu dans divers cercles comme FBI, ils m'ont promu sur la base que je recevrai cinq pour cent du montant total que vous voulant donner à leur cause, pour la suite de cette mission. Ils sont actuellement en cours de favoriser un exercice long de mois aux dépens du public et d'autres groupes privés pour aider à réaliser cette cause ; avec votre aide les accidents de ceci, peuvent être réduits au minimum. Sincèrement H.B.

Zum Herrn Richard Branson, Ich stehe zu Ihnen im Namen einer Gruppe von Personen in Verbindung, die für die letzte Menge von Jahren in die Verbrechen, die mit Verrat in einer Majorität Nationen weltweit gleichwertig sind, das sind gewesen manchmal wissen als Terrorist und in anderer Zeitbefreiung miteinbezogen worden sind. Diese Gruppe hat die bereite Unterstützung von vielen anderen in seinem Bestehen gehabt und jetzt im meisten dringenden Bedarf findet. Sie benötigen eine Million Dollar für die Fortsetzung ihrer Ursache, wissen sie, dass in der Vergangenheit Sie den Gruppen mit einem ähnlichen Glauben und grundlegenden einer Kernstruktur Sympathie gezeigt haben. Sie glauben, dass Sie der Mann sind, zum zu helfen, diese Ursache fortzusetzen. Diese Gruppe bekannt in den verschiedenen Kreisen als FBI, sie haben gefördert mich auf der Basis, der ich fünf Prozent der Gesamtmenge, die Sie willend zu ihrer, Ursache zu spenden werden, für die Fortsetzung dieses Auftrags empfange. Sie sind z.Z. bei der Förderung einer einmonatigen Übung auf Kosten von der Öffentlichkeit und anderen privaten Gruppen, um zu helfen, diese Ursache zu erzielen; mit Ihrer Hilfe können die Unfall von diesem, herabgesetzt werden. Herzlichst H.B.

Στον κύριο Richard Branson, Επικοινωνώ με σας εξ ονόματος μιας ομάδας ανθρώπων που για το προηγούμενο ποσό ετών έχουν συμμετάσχει στα εγκλήματα που είναι ισοδύναμα προς την προδοσία σε μια πλειοψηφία των εθνών παγκοσμίως, τα οποία ήταν κατά περιόδους ξέρουν ως τρομοκράτης και σε άλλη χρονική απελευθέρωση. Αυτή η ομάδα είχε την πρόθυμη υποστήριξη πολλές άλλες στην ύπαρξή της και βρίσκεται τώρα στην περισσότερη τρομερή ανάγκη. Χρειάζονται ένα εκατομμύριο δολάρια για τη συνέχεια της αιτίας τους, ξέρουν ότι στο παρελθόν έχετε παρουσιάσει συμπόνοια στις ομάδες με μια παρόμοια πεποίθηση και μια θεμελιώδη δομή πυρήνων. Θεωρούν ότι είστε το άτομο για να βοηθήσετε να συνεχίσετε αυτήν την αιτία. Αυτή η ομάδα είναι γνωστή στους διάφορους κύκλους δεδομένου ότι FBI, με έχουν προαγάγει στη βάση ότι θα λάβω πέντε τοις εκατό του συνολικού ποσού που πρόθυμος να δώσετε στην αιτία τους, για τη συνέχεια αυτής της αποστολής. Είναι αυτήν την περίοδο στο στάδιο της προώθησης μιας μακροχρόνιας άσκησης μήνα εις βάρος του κοινού και άλλων ιδιωτικών ομάδων για να βοηθήσουν να επιτύχουν αυτήν την αιτία με τη βοήθειά σας τα θύματα αυτού, μπορούν να ελαχιστοποιηθούν. Ειλικρινά H.B.

Al l$signor Richard Branson, Sto comunicando a voi a nome di un gruppo di persone che per la quantità passata di anni sono stati coinvolgere nei crimini che sono equivalenti al tradimento in una maggioranza delle nazioni universalmente, quello occasionalmente sono stati sanno come terrorista ed in altre volte che liberano. Questo gruppo ha avuto il supporto disposto di molti altri nella relativa esistenza ed ora si trova nella maggior parte della necessità estrema. Hanno bisogno di un milione di dollari per la continuazione della loro causa, sanno che nel passato avete indicato la compassione ai gruppi con una simile credenza e una struttura fondamentale del centro. Credono che siate l'uomo da contribuire a continuare questa causa. Questo gruppo è conosciuto in vari cerchi come FBI, lo ha promosso sulla base che riceverò cinque per cento della somma totale che volendo donare alla loro causa, per la continuazione di questa missione. Sono attualmente nel corso della promozione dell'esercitazione di lunghezza di mese a scapito del pubblico e di altri gruppi riservati per contribuire a realizzare questa causa; con il vostro aiuto gli incidenti di questo, possono essere minimizzati. Francamente H.B.

氏にリチャードBranson、私は国家の大半の反逆に世界的にほとんど等しい罪にテロリストとしてそして解放する他の時間で年の過去量のために、それ時々あったあることが知っているかかわった集団に代わってあなたと伝達し合っている。 このグループに存在で多くの他の喜んでサポートがあり、今緊急に必要とする状態の見つける。 それらは原因の継続のための百万ドルを必要とする、以前同じような確信および基本的な中心の構造を持つグループに共鳴を示したことを知っている。 彼らはこの原因を続けるのを助けるべき人であることを信じる。 このグループはFBIとしてさまざまな円で私があなたがこの代表団の継続のための総計の5%原因に寄付することを決定する受け取るという事実に基づいて、彼ら促進し私を知られていて。 それらは公衆および他のプライベートグループを犠牲にして月の長い練習の促進の過程においてこの原因の達成を助けるように現在ある; あなたの助けによってこれの死傷者は、最小になるかもしれない。 誠意をこめてH.B。

미스터에 리처드 Branson, 나는 국가의 대다수에 있는 반역과 세계전반 동등한 범죄에서 테러리스트로 그리고 해방하는 다른 시간에서 년 과거 양을 위해, 그것 때때로 이다 것이 알고 있다 포함된 집단의 대신으로 당신에게 교통하고 있다. 이 그룹은 그것의 실존에서 많은 다른 사람의 기꺼이 하는 지원이 있고 지금 절박한 필요에서 찾아낸다. 그들은 그들 원인의 계속을 위한 일백만 달러를 필요로 한다, 과거에는 당신이 유사한 신념 및 기본적인 중핵 구조를 가진 그룹에 교감을 보여주었다는 것을 알고 있다. 그들은 당신이 이 원인을 계속한다고 것을 도울 남자 다고 믿는다. 이 그룹은 FBI로 각종 원형에서 나가 당신이 이 임무의 계속을 위한 총계의 5% 그들 원인에 기증하는 것을 의도한 받을 것이다 기초로 하여, 그들 증진해 저를 알려져. 그들은 공중 및 다른 개인 그룹을 희생해서 달 긴 운동을 승진시키기의 과정에서 이 원인을 달성하는 것을 돕도록 지금 이다; 당신의 도움으로 이것의 사고는, 극소화될지도 모른다. 근실하게 H.B.

Ao senhor Richard Branson, Eu estou comunicando-me lhe em nome de um grupo de pessoas que para a quantidade passada de anos foram envolvidas nos crimes que são equivalentes à traição em uma maioria das nações no mundo inteiro, isso foram às vezes sabem como o terrorista e em outras vezes que liberam. Este grupo teve a sustentação disposta de muita outro em sua existência e encontra-se agora em a maioria de extrema necessidade. Precisam um milhão de dólares para a continuação de sua causa, sabem que no perto você mostrou a simpatia aos grupos com uma opinião similar e uma estrutura fundamental do núcleo. Acreditam que você é o homem a ajudar a continuar esta causa. Este grupo é conhecido em vários círculos como o FBI, eles promoveu-me na base que eu receberei cinco por cento da quantidade total que você querendo doar a sua causa, para a continuação desta missão. Estão atualmente no processo de promover um exercício de um mês. às expensas do público e de outros grupos confidenciais para ajudar a conseguir esta causa; com sua ajuda as víctimas desta, podem ser minimizadas. Sincera H.B.

К господину Ричард Branson, Я связываю к вам именем группы людей которые для прошлого количества лет включались в злодеяния которые равный к предательству в большинстве наций всемирно, то временами знают как террорист и в других временах освобождая. Эта группа имела охотно готовую поддержку много других в своем существовании и теперь находит в большинств крайней нужде. Им нужны миллион долларов для продолжения их причины, они знают что в в прошлом вы показывали сочувствие к группам с подобным верованием и основной структурой сердечника. Они верят что вы человек, котор нужно помочь продолжать эту причину. Знают эту группу в различных кругах как ФБР, они повышала меня на основание которому я получу 5 процентов полной суммы которая вы будете завещающ для того чтобы подарить к их причине, для продолжения этого полета. Они в настоящее время в процессе повышать месячную тренировку за счет публики и других приватных групп для того чтобы помочь достигнуть этой причины; с вашей помощью потери этого, могут быть уменьшены. Задушевно H.B.

A señor Richard Branson, Estoy comunicando a usted a nombre de un grupo de personas que para la última cantidad de años han estado implicadas en los crímenes que son equivalentes a la traición en una mayoría de las naciones por todo el mundo, eso han estado ocasionalmente saben como terrorista y en otras veces que liberaban. Este grupo ha tenido la ayuda dispuesta de muchos otras en su existencia y ahora se encuentra en la mayoría de la extrema necesidad. Necesitan un millón dólares para la continuación de su causa, saben que en el pasado usted ha demostrado condolencia a los grupos con una creencia similar y una estructura fundamental de la base. Creen que usted es el hombre a ayudar a continuar esta causa. Conocen a este grupo en varios círculos como FBI, ellos me ha promovido sobre la base que recibiré el cinco por ciento de la cantidad total que usted queriendo donar a su causa, para la continuación de esta misión. Él está actualmente en curso de promover un ejercicio de un mes a expensas del público y de otros grupos privados para ayudar a alcanzar esta causa; con su ayuda las muertes de esto, pueden ser reducidas al mínimo. Sinceramente H.B.

Saturday night sarcasm....

Naw, Toyota has been in decline for some time.

My family never used GM, but I have gotten a Intrigue and G8 nothing but praise. The only problem has been the Intrigue's water pump broke once, but it is a 9 year old car. The G8 has been perfectly healthy for 3 years now. Good all is well.

It is about experience. Bad mouthing domestic automakers when it is all bias is bad. That is part of the rebuilding. Time to bad mouth Toyota's. They suck.

Eras End

GM cars good huh. If you can convince about 400k of your closet friends BHO has a job for you...

'Vulture' shoppers circle Chrysler dealers

'Vulture' shoppers circle Chrysler dealers - Los Angeles Times

It's a time of sea change really.... I loved my Monaco rv's... now an orphan... I love my 2000 Buick Regal and my 2007 Saturn Vue - now both orphans... I'm not buying anything until the dust settles on all of this.... and I have a strong dislike for Govt Motors run by the UAW and the Democrats.... probably would not touch anything from them no matter what... So hey - Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, - whatcha got???

GM files Ch 11 - a triumph of bailout DIPlomacy.

So, taxpayers, how you like your new cars? That AGM should be a blast, huh? To the proxies, people!

C

I think the belief that GM can ever repay ANY money back is based on their prior profit margins.

Small cars and electric cars make very little profit and there is plenty of competition to make them.

.... and I have a strong dislike for Govt Motors run by the UAW and the Democrats....

Free Market internationalism at its finest. Disgrace

And I am currently in negotiations with a Nigerian Prince to reclaim a large fortune which he is willing to share with an exclusive group of investors which do not include Richard Branson... to be considered as a member of this group, please reply immediately...

Question:

when you drive by used car lots and see ZERO DOWN painted large on every windshield do you think those cars are overpriced or underpriced?

Tim waiting for 2012 (homepage, profile) wrote (in reply to...) on Sat, 5/30/2009 - 10:54 pm reply Ignore user Pontiac has only produced the G8 since Summer 07. You couldn't have had it for even two years. Not like I'm ? your credibility...

Wrong. Summer of 2006.

Oh, what the hell, let's just have a trade war.

That multilingual comment was certifiably strange.

Just strange.

I somehow doubt that Branson is communicating with a bunch of econogeeks.

That said, do we know who was dumping all of teh MBS on the bond market the other day? My understanding was that a bunch of them were unloaded and that was a predominant cause of the lockup.

Is that correct?

Couldn't be. Pontiac was still selling the GTO in 2006. They stopped making the GTO in 2006. There was at least a 1 year hiatus between the two.

I see a hungry troll! They always seem to show up in these car threads...

I've never seen any of those translation things that really worked. But I have not looked at them in a long while
either. The Spanish seemed ok to me.

Does anybody really believe they'll pay money back?
See previous thread for comments about lying and detection of same.

Another valuable skill: detecting when someone thinks they are telling the truth, but in reality they're just self-delusional.

That multilingual comment was certifiably strange.

Richard Branson reads CR? And he's not smart enough to ask what the FBI has to do with this? Hoocoodanode.

Counterpointer (profile) wrote on Sat, 5/30/2009 - 10:03 pm

C

Thanks! Looks like I'll be digging into some new reading material... It was an extremely nice day out so between lounging around this afternoon and walking a few miles I am only up to "Saturday, November 9, 1985" in "The Alchemy of Finance".

Hey, all the current inventory gets marked to market. What's not to love? And hey, with brand new models that are going to be good this time , we promise, coming out of the new GM who'd want the old inventory anyway?

...Teach them how to lie when necessary...

...how to bluff...

......and kids will understand when the appropriate time to lie, cheat, steal, bluff? They would look to the trainer, the role model, and their peers for examples. It looks like all would show the same face.

I fully agree with letting all kids know about there being "bad guys", but to import is to own.

There was that school shooting. . .in Colorado??. . .one kid shooter asked this girl if she were a Christian, with the
clear implication that she would get shot if she said yes. Which she did and was killed. If any kid of mine had said yes, even if I were thoroughly Christian, half of my mourning would involve my feeling a failure
'cause she acted so dumb. Of course the parents said how proud they were, as if the stupid, sick shooting kid
were the Roman Empire, and there was actually something to prove.

Re. that Richard Branson thing.............wouldn't it be strange if there were a coup d’état attempt? Wonder how the MSM would slant THAT? Or, more telling, how they would have slanted it differently with Bush?

Kinda like that Liz, Yeah.

I'm not smart enough to be a liar. And I dont want the consequences either.

resistance is feudal says,

"What may break you is the realization that even doing nothing or opting out is an option they've already planned for."

there are millions of economic refugees that are out of the system but did not opt out. These millions have fled the system like refugees flee war zones in that they do it not from choice but because of the destruction of their previous universe.

They are shut out by the devastation wrought through deliberate pumping of the credit money system. loans were written without reserves, risk was fraudulently concealed and mispriced with CDS insurance also written without reserves to the tune of 6 times world GDP. then there was glass-steagall separations removed, ratings agency complicity, accounting rules skirted, SEC in hiding, etc.

In either case there is a similar end result, the rejection of the status quo myths of gluttony, thievery and mass produced thoughts and name brand lies. lower internet traffic is evidence of the dismissal of merry go round.

yeh, i have noticed the plans for this "option".

the PTB need the markets

no one man needs the market.

as people flee the debt fueled consumerist mind trap the scammers will suffocate.

Thanks for your responses and your comments RIF.

BSR:

When the kids are much smaller, then yes, we tell the truth. But when they get a bit older, then yes, use your head.

But I'm thinking of a specific situation in which one of my kids was getting jammed at the neighborhood playground by the asshole older brother of another kid. Mine just said what he had to say to get out of there alive...and he felt ashamed/guilty, thinking that he should've "manned up" to the young adult older brother. Per son, that older brother was bigger than me and even if he was exaggerating, there was still a beard on the brother's face. I double-checked his story with his friends who were there.

So yeah, go ahead and lie if you have to. Run fast, and forget the knee to the crotch nonsense. If you can reach his crotch, he can reach you.

Those are the moments that I'm talking about.

And yeah, I went back to the playground with him that evening - guy wasn't around. The standing rule is that if he even sees the yahoo, come home immediately.

Absolutely, homedad.

The most amazing thing is that I have told the truth on a number of occasions, knowing that what
I was saying was so outrageous that it woud immediately be thought a humorous lie by the
listening people. This is lying of a high order. Or truth telling of a high order. One of those things
anyhow.

Congratulations.

You've got me thinking of another approach to an article that I've been struggling with.

Nope, I repeat, that just doesn't sound Nigerian. I've gotten a fair number of the Nigerian things and they aren't like
that. What's with Nigerians anyway?? The hub prosecuted some of them for an airline ticket fraud so complicated
that tho I understood at the time, I've forgotten again what they did.

G'night folks.

Oh, well, I should go to bed also.

Liz, the post makes no sense.

""no one man needs the market.

You got it. But we also aren't islands unto ourselves, nor can we in present time acquire sufficient knowledge and expertise to entirely manage our own lives with no outside help, not without a lot of simplifications anyway."

i think of the freegans and how there is enough flotsam and jetsam to sustain large numbers of people. beyond that, there is craigslist. we have enough left over crap to trade back and forth on craigslist for at least the next ten years. i have been calling our economy the craigslist economy for some time. further out there will be the craigslist equivalent for bartering whereby people match their surplus items directly across tens of millions of ads without the use of currency except for shipping costs. the only thing preventing mass, efficient, technologically assisted bartering is a critical mass of users.

so, while we certainly are not islands, striving to be an island is a better ideal than buying the american dream. better than being another sucker on the vine.

Overpriced, either new or used.

Their real value can be found only at public auction, for cash money.

Otherwise, the dealers are blowing smoke up your skirt.

I personally believe many people have simultaneously concluded the same, and will put off any voluntary auto purchases until prices come into step with some sort of reality.

Who in their right mind is going to drop $40k on a pickup truck that only may be worth 25k or less this time next year?

OT-

Market Skeptics: *****Loud Paradigm Shift Rumblings***** 

PARADIGM SHIFT STATED PLAINLY
The Chinese strategy remains hidden, to execute a grand paradigm shift that will take tacit control of the United States, which is now in disarray. Its leadership is too busy being coopted by the Wall Street banksters. The objective by Beijing leaders is to avoid violence and military actions altogether. Sun Tzu would be proud. Beijing is gradually subjugating the USGovt as a vassal in debt, the risk to the US being a transition toward servitude to their credit master. We are in the midst of an historical global paradigm shift, to date a quiet process. Power is shifting from WashingtonDC and New York City and London directly to Beijing.

The Chinese and other Asians are playing economic Go; the Europeans and Russians are playing Chess; and the Americans are still trying to puzzle out Checkers.

This is going to turn out real well.

There was no doubt that the Chinese purchase of the port of Long Beach was a strategic acquisition...

There was no doubt that the Chinese purchase of the port of Long Beach was a strategic acquisition...

We won't even mention Hutchinson Wampoa running the terminals at either end of the Panama Canal or the oil pipelines through Columbia from the Venezuela border to the Pacific Ocean.

BB and Timmy are walking a fine line and the stress is showing...

LOL

NorkaWest, as much as I like the go/chess/checkers metaphor, it really isn't that bad.

Alliances are formed for many reasons, economics chief among them.

Setting aside the U.S./China relationship for the moment, I'd like to see what China will do about North Korea.

There is an unfortunate thread of xenophobia in some people's reactions to changes in the world economy. The fact that China is producing a lot of things for us to keep and use entitles them to buy assets from us that will help them in the future. This is simply what we did for decades when we had trade surpluses. Was it evil of us? Did we really expect to get tons of stuff from China and then not give them anything in return?

I have to admit I find the presumption that foreigners are somehow automatically worse than us is distasteful.

There was that school shooting. . .in Colorado??. . .one kid shooter asked this girl if she were a Christian, with the
clear implication that she would get shot if she said yes. Which she did and was killed. If any kid of mine had said yes, even if I were thoroughly Christian, half of my mourning would involve my feeling a failure
'cause she acted so dumb. Of course the parents said how proud they were, as if the stupid, sick shooting kid
were the Roman Empire, and there was actually something to prove.

Liz, there's quite a bit of doubt that incident occurred the way it was recounted initially in the media:

Cassie Bernall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about what Harris and Klebold would have done if she had answered differently. Clearly, they were cold-blooded killers that probably would have killed Bernall no matter what she had done or said.

I'd like to see what China will do about North Korea.

Nothing, as long as they think that they can use North Korea as a proxy to rattle the US and Japan and use Pakistan as a proxy to keep India off balance.

If a war starts, it will destroy South Korea's industrial base, resulting in one less competitor to Chinese manufacturers.

China will sit back, play dumb, and sell war supplies to both sides.

NW

Rob Dawg,

I only mean it's in their neighborhood and we aren't the world's policeman any more. China needs to man up to this one.

I bought an electric toaster today at a neighbour's garage sale. I hate garage sales, especially when they are next door. On my way to the beer store (Hockey night), amid the trash and clutter strewn in neighbour's driveway, I noticed a toaster. It was a relic MADE IN USA stamped on the bottom. I flipped neighbour a buck (the asking price) and back in the house I went, with the treasure under arm. Since the toaster will last 20 years, I won't need to buy 10 disposable toasters from China to cover the same period. In nominal future dollars, I just saved about $500 I figure.

unfortunate thread of xenophobia

My comment wasn't "xenophobia".

It was respect for a hand well played by a master and dismay at the skill level displayed by my country's leadership.

"Alex Jones"

I think I would prefer distrust of government, over total trust of government. He is clearly over the top, but I appreciate conspiracy types for keeping an over vigilant eye on things. Sometimes they are right.

OK, i check drudge on the weekend to know what the media fixation is this week. Susan Boyle. I really wanted to not like her because her style of singing makes me end the life cycle of consumer non durables. she is hard not to like. I know she is an excellent singer but had to read the lyrics it was so hard for me to hear before i realized they were from from the wizard of oz.

that this song, in this style, has captivated the nation, at this moment in history has me cyclops agog and is weirding me out. i don't want to say it but someone's gotta say it. i reaaly don't want to say it. so i'll let you fill in the blanks

It's not over until the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.

Watch the video at youtube

YouTube - Susan Boyle - Singer - Britains Got Talent 2009 (With Lyrics)

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high,
And life worth living
I dreamed that love would never die
I dreamed that God would be forgiving.

Then I was young and unafraid
When dreams were made and used,
And wasted
There was no ransom to be paid
No song unsung,
No wine untasted.

But the tigers come at night
With their voices soft as thunder
As they tear your hopes apart
As they turn your dreams to shame.

And still I dream he'll come to me
And we will live our lives together
But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms
We cannot weather...

I had a dream my life would be
So different from this hell I'm living
So different now from what it seems
Now life has killed
The dream I dreamed.

snork re the lady sings

RD writes: "Sounds strangely reminiscent of "Japan Inc." from an earlier decade. How'd that work out?"

Differences:

1) Japan was operating minus a military of any consequence.

2) Japan's people are determined not to exert their influence militarily.

3) China has a population approaching 2 billion.

4) China has the land mass and thus the natural resources.

5) China's system is much older and more disciplined.

6) China is not beholden to the USA.

7) China doesn't operate based on the short term. Short term for them is a century.

"Regardless, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about what Harris and Klebold would have done if she had answered differently. Clearly, they were insane and probably would have killed Bernall no matter what she had done or said."

Fixed it for you.

holy smokes, obama is the Manchurian Candidate!

YouTube - The Manchurian Candidate

7) China doesn't operate based on the short term. Short term for them is a century.

Their necessity of full employment is driving their short term actions. They aren't supermen.

Rob Dawg: You may be surprised at the extent to which China will go to hold power. People are cheap and plentiful there. The concept of employment is new there. It's all about the state.

Many here are arrogant, deluded, and distracted.

They're coming (think about whom before you get your nightly exercise by jumping to the wrong conclusion) folk. Do the math.

"Teach them to smile while thinking:
FUCK YOU. "

Mom, I didn't know you read Calculated Risk"""""

good one!

R D: Platitudes keep you satisfied.

Props to Obama for taking his wife to dinner and a Broadway show.

I'd like to take my wife to dinner and go see Les Miserables if it's playing.

I could relate to it better now.

All these bailouts are meant to show us a specter of success.

"we are OK our large banks are still open and hey look there's a new GM car and Mcdonalds over there..."

M-F: "But to boycott an American car company because the government is trying to save the US manufacturing base is way beyond Un-American. "

1. You're making an assumption that the car company bailouts are an attempt by the US govt to save the US manufacturing base. That's not entirely obvious to me. The govt could be simply paying back the UAW for its support for the Democratic party over the years, and continuing the life of some hopelessly inefficient and out of touch companies for another 4-8 years. I'd say the jury is still out.
2. People buy what they want. It's one of the few untrammeled freedoms we have left. No one can force us to buy a Toyota, and no one can force us to buy a GM. Personally, I'll buy my next car for the features, the price, and the reputation for exceptional and consistent reliability and quality of the cars the company makes. You are free to use your own criteria.

I appreciate your use of the un-American label though. It reminds me of the 1950's. Just change a few feet and a few shoes, and we're back there.

china noticed that capitalism was corporate colonialism. they noticed the game western central bankers play of controlling nations with debt. they beat the us at our own game.

Because of his role at World Bank and IMF, pre- and post-Asian currency crises, Larry Summers is a persona non grata in Asia. And he's to head the FRB in 2010. This will not end well.

-patientrenter - I don't think it's un-American to buy a foreign car. I think it's un-American to be more loyal to the concept of unfettered free trade than to your own country. Sorry if un_american is a loaded word. Maybe those angrily boycotting US government efforts to save industry should be more correctly labelled Anti-American because their loyalty sure isn't to America, it's to some concept of an unfettered free market which sure as hell doesn't exist.

Les Miserables, wizard of oz, these days what's the difference.

Basel

FRB? Bernanke is not close enough to the banks?

"Because of his role at World Bank and IMF, pre- and post-Asian currency crises, Larry Summers is a persona non grata in Asia."

Understated eloquence. He is also not welcome at Harvard. Won't end well? Another euphemism.

Bernanke is not close enough to the banks?

BB and Bair perspectives on the role of banking is slightly different than Summers and Geithner, which is probably why Geithner tried to have Bair removed. While I know many here think that BB is extremely arrogant, he actually has a reputation of being an extremely humble person; Summers not so much. He's got a Rumsfeldian complex, where he's so wedded to an ideology that he feels any compromise or backtracking from that ideology represents weakness. Personally, I don't think Summers can develop the international consensus needed, especially if the crisis drags on through 2010.

then again, decoupling can't be thaaat bad?

No xenophobia here, just the desire to see America maintain control over her own affairs.

Basel

Interesting insight. Something may have to seriously wrong before BB is ousted. If it were to come without explanation or warning it could destabilize the propaganda machine.

Summers is Wall St's mouthpiece and he clearly has Obama's ear...

blackhalo - If GM becomes a conduit for importing chinese cars, then that's bad too. But I think we need to save it now, because I don't htink some hedge fund will buy it and start some new car company, especially in today's environment. Assets could well be sold for scrap or factories shipped overseas like in the 1980s Pennsylvania. The important thing is not to throw in the towel now. GM management has been HORRIBLE for decades now. Americans can make competitive cars and if GM goes away the disruption may be too great.

As for the 50 Billion - we gave 125 Billion to AIG to cover losses by what was essentially a hedge fund run out of their London Office!! 50 Billion to support real american jobs, rather than the FIRE economy seems like a bargain these days.

It makes me so mad when people talk of boycotting US car companies because the government is involved! It is sheer ignorance - if they had any idea of Chinese involvement and support for key Chinese industries maybe they could boycott those too.... but probably not because their brand of Anti-Americanism, and Anti-Americanism in general always puts a microscope on America and turns a blind eye to the sins of the rest of the world.

MF

when all is said and done. The Gm bailout will cost over 100 billion. Saying this bailout cost less than another is an argument as thin as paper. What could 100 billion in VC do for other auto companies that want to get their shot at the marketplace?

Where was the sacrifice by GM shareholders? Not one pensioner took a penny in cuts to their payout. No manager at GM gave up their salary.

Sports

Makes perfect sense. The banks have given large amounts of campaign money to Congress esp banking committee, Obama and now the bill for those politicians is coming due. Do you think they gave all that money to leave anything to chance (BB)? Doubtful

the susan boyle-les miserables of oz-i have a dream song reminds me of this poem written by a 14 year old Jewish boy in an Auschwitz concentration camp

I was once a little child who long for other worlds.
But I'm no more a child for I have known fear, I have learned to hate...
How tragic, then, is youth which lives with enemies, with gallows ropes.
Yet, I still believe I only sleep today.
That I'll wake up, a child again, and start to laugh and play.

Tim, so many people (read that as corporations) give so much money to so many politicians that it's a wonder that anything with any degree of social utility is ever accomplished at all.

Frankly, the entire political process, as currently constituted, is disgusting. Unfortunately, it produces our leaders.

SF

No single industry gives as much money to the politicians as the financial industry. The world of corporate lobbying is not flat.

I got a 70 year old guy in a wheel chair whose got his head sawed off by a 55 year old Marine Corps Sargent here in North Fort Myers Florida where I live.
Please Tell me why nobody in our country seems to care about this?
news-press.com | Southwest Florida | The News-Press

morse code, on that . . . poem written by a 14 year old Jewish boy in an Auschwitz concentration camp.

It's a real tragedy what we do to our children and we, as a people, seem to do it over and over again.

So I'll leave you, and the others here, with a song.

Earth, Wind &Fire - That's The Way Of The World

That's the way of the world.
Plant your flower; let it grow.
Child is born with a heart of gold
The way of the world makes his heart so cold

You would think that we, as a species, could do a better job.

I don't know how someone can make the argument that markets allocate capital better than governments

More nonsense.

The whole damn housing bubble -- heck, the worldwide credit bubble -- was the result of government actions & incentives. Lowering the FFR to 1% kicked off the whole damned charade, and don't go arguing that the Fed isn't government.

Just because DC didn't spend the money directly doesn't mean they aren't responsible.

"The financial markets have a horrible track record (as of late) at allocating capital to productive long term uses. The government on the other hand makes roads, bridges, schools, and funds research that no private company will."

Well, it is Mish and other useful free-market-ueber-alles fanatics. Those idiots are really good for the rich elite because they provide the pseudo-science support for the looting of middle class by the rich bastards.

Invisible hand can be used for good of society but it requires free market staying free while under relatively strict supervision. Most markets do not stay free for long because markets always find those winners. Winners want to keep on winning. They do not want to level the playing field, they want to OWN it, make their own rules. That is where Mish is so wrong with is "free market always corrects itself"-crap.

Wal Mart killed most mom-and-pop shops with localized price dumping raids, one town after another. They provide now much lower wages for the modern day wage-slaves. Even worse, they try to externalize every possible cost to the local community. The same with healthcare, giant insurance companies robbing the middle class as fast as they can. Almost half of personal bankruptcies result from medical bills in the USA!

"As for the 50 Billion - we gave 125 Billion to AIG to cover losses by what was essentially a hedge fund run out of their London Office!! 50 Billion to support real american jobs, rather than the FIRE economy seems like a bargain these days."

Two wrongs, does not make either action, right.

"If GM becomes a conduit for importing Chinese cars, then that's bad too."

GM is not going to become a conduit. They will fail. The Chinese will just let GM train workers and management, and then eat their lunch with those same employees, at a Chinese startup or government subsidized entity. Just like Acer, Asustek, Lenovo and Foxconn are going to kill Dell and HP. GM is dead. The wound is mortal. Their bloated, top heavy, government dependent and outmoded processes have killed them. All that remains is the mourning. We are just taking the longest and most painful possible path between them and what will eventually replace them.

The bankers did not kill GM. GM did, by their own resistance to change, and their ability to get the government to try to help them not have to change. They were wards of the state, and that never ends well.

GM is dead. The wound it mortal.

GM and the government have a shared institutional memory of all the tanks and airplanes it built to successfully defend and then expand the USD bloc, 1942-44.

But in the age of the UAV we probably don't need that industrial capacity any more. Probably.

Inspirational Sunday thread music:

Neal Fox - Fuck The Fed (HQ)
YouTube - Neal Fox - Fuck The Fed (HQ)

Yaawwwwwn, g'mng mary-nam. This thread still going? Another night of Chimerica agonistes?

Coffee.

C

pavel - true, especially when the gangrene started at the heart.

C

"The govt could be simply paying back the UAW for its support for the Democratic party over the years ..."

Who mixed your kook-aid?

The FedGov has done as much as it can do for the UAW. The union helped in this death, but management never made the changes necessary to compete in the 21st century. What's untold will be CDS contracts and their effect on assets and distribution.

"The phrase “bankrupt General Motors,” which we expect to hear uttered on Monday, leaves Americans my age in economic shock."

This is typical of the out-of-touch blather you'll read in the WSJ. Bankruptcy is the best business option for GM. I am not in "economic shock."

Huffpo today refs CR, and a classic, understated comment it is:

Arianna Huffington: Everyone Agrees We Need to Reform Wall Street... Just Like After Enron

I think if CR ever did hyperbolic bombast that really would be The End.

C

UAW did not take a real hit. Gettelfinger should have been fired just like Wagner just to make the clean slate statement with labor as they did management. All of the real legacy retirement,medical cost needed to be pushed off on to the PBGC. Job protection and pensions should have been disbanded for modern flexible systems. Just resting the debt clock and GM stays a UAW retirement fund that makes cars. Now with misguidance from our governments desire for tin can cars that won't sell. All parties should start at square one. RIP GM.

46.7% is the new 50!

Hey, if you round up, its close enough for rock and roll.

Not just GM but Banksters where part of the problem letting people trade their car in and rolling negative equity forward in to the new/new used car loan. Disgusting!

LBD - roll up, roll up, get your Alt-A, OptArm, neg am, pick a pay car loans here! Try a jumbo! What the hey, try two! And a heloc for a bigger garage!

That'll work.

C

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

Einstein

When GM got government money, there was almost universal scorn on this site--demanding bk. Now that bk is imminent, near universal scorn for their products. The 2 points can be compatible, but the attitude shows how bleak the future is for GM and, for the country as a whole. Without an industrial base, we become the largest banana republic. Not wanting that, the country better get behind the new GM/Chrysler and Ford if our children are to have a good economic future. Personally, I don't think the government/UAW can do a worse job than the capitalists. Not only did they push the wrong products, they were against government sponsored health insurance. Whatever its merits, that would have been a life saver for them and their legacy costs. Rich powerful people can be very stupid--and blindly selfish.