You know I don't believe any of these finance types, but I don't know the details of the lies, just that the
stock mkt can't possibly be based on anything that is true.
And then I read the link to seeking alpha about operational earnings vs earnings earnings, which showed that Bloomberg and NCBS were both chaning the metric they used because operational earnings looked better, and
not saying that they were changing the metric, to fool people.
Somehow, knowing the details of the lies makes it worse and more nauseating.
"....if they're one of the 300K-500K people whose unemployment checks have stopped this month, it IS."
I thought Uncle Sam kicked in an extra six months of UI coverage in January....
Would it be possible to convert the Rust Belt to farming? As California dries up, we need new places to grow food. Seems like there is still a lot of water available there, even if the weather is only good for 1.5 to 2 crops per year.
just a disgrace..the death of an American icon. So much went wrong there was no hope of salvaging the company.
I found this interesting ..check it out Econ & Finance Articles Updated Daily http://is.gd/HGYt
Forget "fair." Forget "rule of law." Tell me... WILL IT WORK? I have to answer no. Now with the high probability that this scheme won't work someone reassure me that the unintended consequences don't far exceed any potential upside.
All I know is my daughter is investing in dealer flooring programs, a badly managed car manufacturer, subprime abs paper and 30 billion more in funds to keep it going thru bankruptcy.....
How come they didn't save the Mustang Ranch? it was more productive, had endless customers, leverage always worked well and business delivered endless streams of profit....
In the final analysis, reality always trumps public relations.
Just when most people were convinced good times were here again, interest rates and commodities start their long climb upward. $3 gas and 6% interest rates will probably be enough to send us into the second leg down (or at least a long, slow stagnation.) The ATA numbers suck, too.
Isn't Thursday when they release the hotel REVPAR numbers?
//Well, this shouldn't affect the stock market OR the 'green shoots' theories, right? It's all priced in already, isn't it? Someone? Anyone? Bueller?//
Which is the next industry to collapse? My guess is airlines. Like the auto industry, it is a supremely disfunctional industry incapable of being profitable. Also, heavily unionized and "strategic". Ripe for a bailout.
Yossarian- come on, an unshackled GM will drive the American economy forward!
Just ignore those from whom GM will unshackle itself. And forget who it just shackled itself to.
Unions served their purpose initially but in the end they worked contrary to the company their members worked for. A house divided will never stand.....
lawyerliz
If you ask them now, no they won't cut ad spending more than they already have. It's all they have known. However since the crunch has happened, I'm sure the C-level has seen the same thing as the dealer level and that is you can cut your ad spending 80% and not lose one bit of market share. They won't dive in, but they have already got their toes wet in the pool of reduced marketing budgets. Water is warm, looks clean, probably deep enough
The only companies that survive will accept the commoditzation of the car. I expect Chrysler to release a feature length film to promote their inclusion of fridges where glove compartments used to be.
A big part of this is the fundamental value function for advertising is not the same. When people are primarily buying on credit, advertising makes a HUGE impact in terms of cost:reward. When people save up for their purchase, big difference. Consumers tend to evaluate choices like accountants. Won't make a difference what automakers spend. It takes 5 minutes to see what every company has on offer with the web. There goes the educating uninformed consumers value.
Now, everybody who has bond insurance starts sweating the counterparty depth of pocket;-}
Now, we clear off the wreckage of the living dead from the 1979-1983 pileup and proceed to our massive augean stable of finance.
The new auto companies will be quite stable without those pesky long term debts and obligations swamping their balance sheet.
The entire auto industry (sans Ford for the moment) has just been given a second chance at success.
I would not be worried about their future, instead, I would be worried if I was in the FIRE part of the economy.
The Health care sector will be good for about five years, that is when the real bite of the health care reform will be felt by the folks living off of the fat of the land;-}
Nothing like transformation to keep the economy growing;-}
bankruptcy of a major American industrial corporation? doesn't seem very significant to me. an economy made up of government employees, the military, financial establishment, fast food and manicurists sounds like a leading world power to me.
Part of the reason GM isn't at $0 is that it is still in both the Dow and S&P. It is a complete scam on the part of both companies to leave it there. Same with Citigroup, IMO. Every time someone buys SPY, DIA or an S&P500 or DOW mutual fund, some money ends up in GM. Taxpayers monthly 401k "investments" are buying GM all the way to $0.
"I thought Uncle Sam kicked in an extra six months of UI coverage in January...."
6-mos State & 6-mos Federal = NOW for hundreds of thousands. I know we supply veggies to 2-food pantries and a Senior Center. You'd think they'd seen the messiah when I ask if they'd take "unpretty" veggies from the Ranch. It's scary. There are MANY who have NOTHING - regular people:
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a top-rate carpenter, she had just finished vet tech school. They just adopted two children they had been fostering. His woodworking business has failed, house in the throes of F/C, they've split up, the kids a week at a time at each parent (in the home or at the business), no money for food, no job and no unemployment check.........
.............. and we sit in front of a 'puter screen complaining.
I posted this on your blog also, but, could you link me more information about Oxnard's street leaseback situation? I saw the LA Times article from January, but it made no mention of any possible default. I work for an oil company that has its wells in Oxnard. Considering that we are developing plans to shoot seismic data along Oxnard's streets the possibility of the city defaulting on the leaseback is a bit of concern. Thanks!
My heart goes out to small business owners. They are being decimated. My Godmother's family owns a car rental/auto repair business in NYC. Business is way down. The State and City have decided to fund bloated budgets and thousands of useless government jobs on the backs of small business owners. They, as well as as many of their colleagues, are being crushed. They are thinking of liquidating the business and retiring to the old country.
"Part of the reason GM isn't at $0 is that it is still in both the Dow and S&P. It is a complete scam on the part of both companies to leave it there. Same with Citigroup, IMO. Every time someone buys SPY, DIA or an S&P500 or DOW mutual fund, some money ends up in GM. Taxpayers monthly 401k "investments" are buying GM all the way to $0."
Excellent point, one that everyone should understand when they pump money blindly into their 401K Index Fund investments - with GM, Citi, BAC, etc. as part of the index. And then you wonder who is buying?
It is you.
Yet another disservice done by stock market "experts": just buy the market index.
My small business clients are being crushed also, but it is from lack of business, I can't say it is from the
gov't. Fla is still relatively low tax. It may be that taxes will increase a lot, but so far, gov't is neither helping nor
hurting.
@ Comrade Terry - Agreed, Pavel. No one who has seen it could want it. Those who are cavalier about it are ignorant of it.
So Comrade Terry, have you ever been caught in the middle of a full blown battle like Fallujah? Unlike 99.99% of the posters here who have no clue, I have. As a civilian in a war decades ago between two sworn blood enemies: the Turks & Greeks. If it wasn't for a major emergency evacuation conducted by joint UK & US forces, I might not even be here to make any ominous declarations.
When I say war is coming, I neither want it nor am I ignorant of it. I merely state it as a fact. War is the only constant - we humans are nothing but savages fighting over scarce resources. It has come, like clockwork, every two generations dating far into pre-history. Step back from your emotions, your hopes & desires, and take a cold hard look at what people are capable of when faced with no alternatives.
In NYS, they are taking it is both ends. Very sad. The top state income tax rate is now over 10%. It really doesn't pay to work in NYS anymore. NYC is even worse. I am insulated. As active duty military, I pay tax in my home of record, which doesn't have an income tax.
I feel we should cue the scene where Scarlett O'Hara, coming home to find everything ruined and broken thrusts her fist in the air, determined to survive.
re: GM, advertising
They still have their Olympic sponsorship. I'm guessing there are ring fenced budgets which are safe, but don't expect them to be renewed upon expiry
MyKillK (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 3:48 pm
Hey Rob Dawg,
I posted this on your blog also, but, could you link me more information about Oxnard's street leaseback situation? I saw the LA Times article from January, but it made no mention of any possible default. I work for an oil company that has its wells in Oxnard. Considering that we are developing plans to shoot seismic data along Oxnard's streets the possibility of the city defaulting on the leaseback is a bit of concern. Thanks!
Mike, I'll get to it. I've got a deadline right now. Thanks.
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a top-rate carpenter, she had just finished vet tech school. They just adopted two children they had been fostering. His woodworking business has failed, house in the throes of F/C, they've split up, the kids a week at a time at each parent (in the home or at the business), no money for food, no job and no unemployment check.........
Absolutely tragic.
Here is another anecdote:
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a property manager for a relocation broker, she a special ed consultant for a large school district (with a PhD). Income between them around $400k/yr. They spent about $100k last year adopting a baby girl, completed the adoption in December. Because they made so much, they bought a house big enough to take in two parents and one sibling. He was laid off in March with 1 months severance pay, she received a lay off notice in April that takes effect July 1. Zero income, lots of bills and a new baby. They will get unemployment checks that combined will not cover their car payments.
.............. and we sit in front of a 'puter screen complaining.
The State of VA State Police over the last 10 months or so have a new revenue collecting plan. About once a month they shut down I-66, either am or pm, and run everyone through a roadblock looking for HOV violaters. The 1st time ticket is $500 and 3 points I think. They did it this am and backed up traffic a few miles.
The Health care sector will be good for about five years, that is when the real bite of the health care reform will be felt by the folks living off of the fat of the land;-}
I think the reform may well go through before that -- I'm betting 2012, because it's a presidential election year and the state of health care will be pretty bad by then -- but the business model of the health care leeches might well take a couple more years to die.
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 5:56 pm
Nuke,
A society that considers some people to be intrinsically more trustworthier than others is asking for the consequences.
If you believe that doctors, police, firefighters etc are intrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think reverands, chaplins, rabbis, priests are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think bankers, lawyers, managers, accountants are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
There is no other option in a society devoid of ethics and based on self-interest than complete distrust. It is unfortunate that we live ever more in a society in which such a position becomes necessary... it seems like everything is a marketing scam being run by someone looking to take advantage of us... we have built a paranoid world and immolated the social contract all in the name of personal gain. I hope the tradeoff was worth it.
Meanwhile in Deutschland...the green sprouts harvest is looking - nicht sehr gut
Exports were down 9.7 percent from the fourth quarter and company investment declined 7.9 percent, according to the Federal Statistics Office. The Office reported that gross domestic product fell a seasonally adjusted 3.8 percent from the previous three months, confirming an initial estimate from May 15. That’s the largest drop since quarterly data were first compiled in 1970
From October to December 2008, the German economy had already contracted by 2.2%, and by 0.5% in each of the the second and third quarters.
According to the statistics office, the decline in economic performance was mainly due to movements in the balance between exports and imports of both goods and services. As in the fourth quarter of 2008, German exports fell much more than German imports in the first three months of this year. While exports declined 9.7 % year on year, imports were down 5.4%, so that the chnaged balance of exports and imports contributed minus 2.2 percentage points to the decline of GDP.
The first-quarter drop in GDP marked an unprecedented fourth successive quarterly contraction for Germany’s economy. The government expects the economy to contract 6 percent this year, while ECB council member Axel Weber said earlier that while “rays of light” are positive, there’s “no reliable indication that the global economy is past the worst.” The euro-region economy may only “gradually stabilize during the latter part of 2009.”
The eurowatch blog post is good. He talks about how "stablization" is really depleted inventories being replinished.
"There is a massive drop (60%) in new orders for machineryExport orders slumped 60 percent while domestic demand dropped 52 percent. So things actually seem to have deteriorated in April with respect to March. No good news this."
I am unhappy. I spent the last few years learning this stuff and none seems to apply. It is like I spent all my time learning how to be a Novell Certified Engineer.
nova,
I thought this from the same post was interesting: “My guess is that the Landesbanken alone will cause ultimate losses of 8-10% of German GDP, which is real money. Compare that sum with the 5% of GDP costs for the US S&L crisis”.
That doesn't included Deutsche Bank and Hypo and several others. That's a significant hit.
holy hell. 18 mo's ago if you would have said that almost all major investment banks would go BK, 2 of the major 3 auto co's would BK, and housing would drop 20%+ nationwide i would have thought the US and most of the world would be way worse off than we are now. seems things are more resilient than i thought but is it like the summer of '07 when markets whistled past the graveyard until the grim reaper swung the scythe and POW! right in the throat.
No worries nova, i just completed my PhD in buggy whip manufacturing.
Im not sure if I am more worried about the 3 million toothless rustbelt J6P' werkers wandering in search of food and werk or the 15 million toothless migrant laborers in China wandering around looking for food and werk...
There is no other option in a society devoid of ethics and based on self-interest than complete distrust. It is unfortunate that we live ever more in a society in which such a position becomes necessary... it seems like everything is a marketing scam being run by someone looking to take advantage of us... we have built a paranoid world and immolated the social contract all in the name of personal gain. I hope the tradeoff was worth it.
It was ever thus. Even under the social contract, distrust reigned. Distrust -- and hatred -- sundered the contract. Now those further mutilated by this unconscionable dog-eat-dog regimen are held up as reasons for further distrust.
Our digital knowingness has multiplied evidence, making it seem as if we are surrounded by ever more debauched and soulless creatures. This is an epistemological illusion: it was always so, as everything from literature to folk song and tales reminds us. Man's a beast.
What's good for GM is good for the country right ... oh wait that was in 1960's when America was a creditor nation and the economic and manufacturing superpower ! Now we're swimming in debt U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time and much of the world is laughing at BB and his printing press operation that will bring us hyperinflation.
America now #1 producer of bullshit financial ponzi schemes while they pass the bill to the American taxpayers.!
Not as bad as awhile back when I had to look at execution videos. One of them, the man was kneeling when they shot him in the head. He made an undescrible sound. It was like a howl and the sound of his soul departing. That, I think, will stay with me forever.
hey coinz, just out of curiosity, what are your price targets for gold?
i keep balking at the price when i get to the checkout screen and wuss out. i only need a few more ounces to accomplish my gold holdings goal but just can't shell out the cash.
Sorry, strange day. Part of it was spent looking at fotos of a man who had been beaten to death by his friends with their fists and boots.
You just have to become a psychopath. Then these things won't bother you. It's very efficient. A little prick on the finger and you won't feel a thing...
now seriously, I have no context in which to relate, but whatever it is worth, you do have my sympathies. I can't put myself in those shoes.
Not so fast on the notion that there is any kind of "agreement" with the bondholders.
The orchestrated attempt by Obongo's ministry of propaganda to spin this stinks. It smells like an attempt to strong arm the bondholders by creating fear/uncertainty. Of course the useful stooges in the NY Times go along.
That Barton Fink Feeling (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:19 pm
Our digital knowingness has multiplied evidence, making it seem as if we are surrounded by ever more debauched and soulless creatures. This is an epistemological illusion: it was always so, as everything from literature to folk song and tales reminds us. Man's a beast.
Interesting. We just have better visibility into ourselves; more transparency, to borrow a mockingly-used political phrase. The media is much more efficient these days at judging public taste -- so it is showing us far more of exactly what we demand, instead of what we woudl actually claim or publicly acknowledge that we want or value.
"Would it be possible to convert the Rust Belt to farming? "
It's not labor intensive. It requires special skills acquired over a lifetime. Who would fund it with credit? - farmers live by credit. Where is the profitable market for the products? Farming is a business - where is the business plan?
Thanks, it could be far worse. Real dead people are usually very stinky.
Apparently human corpses are to the scale of awful smells what the habanero pepper is to the scale of hot peppers. I wouldn't want to find out. But to put this marginally back on topic, it's a shame investment vehicles don't advertise their health or state of decay in a manner no less obvious
"Part of it was spent looking at fotos of a man who had been beaten to death by his friends with their fists and boots."
I once had photos of a man who had been beaten to death in a police cell. No one was ever charged, although the medical examiner's report affirmed the fatal beating and the place where it occurred. When I posted that information on a certain web site I was accused of being anti-police. I seldom post there any more.
The Treasury official acknowledged Thursday that the budget deficit was "going to increase sharply" as a result of aggressive measures to jolt the economy from recession but added that once recovery was firmly established, "we are going to walk back these measures and the deficit will decrease.
"In general, Treasury believes that by maintaining the most liquid debt markets in the world, by maintaining strong economic fundamentals, we will continue to attracts both domestic and international investment."
A collapse of our financial system would be very painful in the near term, but in the long term would actually improve quality of life. Imagine not needing both parents to work in order to keep paying the mortgage. Imagine the majority of our workforce doing productive things, rather than pushing paper and leeching off of the productive/creative output of others.
So Nova, I'm certainly not as pessimistic as you about our future. Sure, we're going to have to cut back on the resources we consume. But the technological advances we're capable of, in terms of energy, conservation, innovation -- it would really be amazing. And rather than pushing our best and brightest minds into those fields, we're propping up dead/dying zombies. Sure the boomers are going to be screwed, as their savings will be wiped out at the same time our economy must reinvent itself. But the future prospects, assuming we don't ruin this country via war/despotism, are surprisingly good.
It will happen eventually, regardless. Hopefully the intermediate transformative phase will happen with as little pain/suffering as possible.
GM may be toast but my guess is the US plants of Nissan and Toyota are not picking up their slack. GM was the biggest buyer of computer chips in the US not to long ago I think.
I sense the cynical and hardcore tone of these recovery stories; I would like to add..
if we cant make the cars eat the food, whose gonna eat the food?...if its up to pavel, we'll be feeding the people to the cars, cuz the people dont eat enough soylent beans..
GM best recovery story ever since the death of Lee Iacocca...mail it in on the Toweled Pony Express.....
nova (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 8:39 pm reply Ignore user Pavel, a man in MD was choked to death in jail after he hurt a cop and no one was ever charged. That was, maybe, a year ago.
I hope you are right. I really want to believe you are right. Just that the kind of change you are talking about is never without a huge cost. Either in blood, money, or belief systems...
GM may be trading over $1 due to the sheer corruption and greed of the NYSE. Being a Dow component, the stock is included in many index funds designed to track the broad markets. That gives the stock an underlying bid due to mindless buying by 401K plans set to autopilot. I'm sure more than a few of you will be buying GM tomorrow, whether you want to or not. I will not, having parked all my 201k's in short term treasuries.
Really the stock should have been removed from the Dow at the beginning of the year, but I am guessing that making money off commissions is more important than protecting investors from themselves.
Citizen Scotto (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 5:43 pm
I'm sure there are not enough farming jobs to absorb displaced auto and auto supply chain workers.
Perhaps Sharecropping and Tenant Farming 2.0 will work just fine whereby a tenant rents, for cash or a share of crops, farm property from a landowner. Different variations of tenant arrangements exist, including sharecropping, in which, typically, a landowner provides all of the capital and a tenant all of the labor for a fifty percent share of crops.
May 29 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s unemployment rate climbed to a five-year high in April and job prospects worsened, signaling household spending will weigh on the economy just as exports are showing signs of improving.
The real question I'm asking myself with GM is this:
What is the value in keeping the company alive?
--Product: Plenty of other car manufacturers; marginal benefit of having GM around is pretty low. Their product is essentially unnecessary
--Jobs: If we're propping them up to preserve jobs, we're wasting our time. Might as well hire people to dig holes and fill them, if we don't need the product. Our labor is uncompetitive from a wage perspective anyway
--Strategic / Military: We may need the industrial base, if we're planning on going to war
--Political: Suicide not to prop up this zombie.
In conclusion, saving GM is utter foolishness unless you are a politician, or planning on going to war soon. Or both:(.
bANK fAILURE (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 8:45 pm
GM best recovery story ever since the death of Lee Iacocca...mail it in on the Toweled Pony Express.....
Gavshire Hathaway (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:43 pm
A collapse of our financial system would be very painful in the near term, but in the long term would actually improve quality of life. Imagine not needing both parents to work in order to keep paying the mortgage. Imagine the majority of our workforce doing productive things, rather than pushing paper and leeching off of the productive/creative output of others.
Even with financial system collapse a litany of property rights and a legal structure to defend them will persist that put us right back in the FIRE shortly. Until the human conceit of "money for nothing" is finally eradicated (fat chance!) there will always be an exploited creative/productive class over whom rentiers (and would-be rentiers) fight. Same as it ever was. But making stuff that people want again would be a step in the right direction, at least, and a financial "reset" would push off our day of being owned by the international banking oligarchy by at least a few decades again. Surprisingly, deflation hurts the monied classes the least, and inflation hurts them the most, so I'm surprised a bit by what's going on...
about time
Weird that GM common stock is still trading at over $1.00.
best to all
I don't see how this isn't Armageddon for the rust belt.
I pray for my friends and family there
GM stock price -"the big picture" blog asked the same question the other day.
if only the BK Code allowed a bad debtor, good debtor arrangement for personal BKs.
To avoid being pigged, as per the last thread:
You know I don't believe any of these finance types, but I don't know the details of the lies, just that the
stock mkt can't possibly be based on anything that is true.
And then I read the link to seeking alpha about operational earnings vs earnings earnings, which showed that Bloomberg and NCBS were both chaning the metric they used because operational earnings looked better, and
not saying that they were changing the metric, to fool people.
Somehow, knowing the details of the lies makes it worse and more nauseating.
We clone ourselves like the good Kirk, bad Kirk?
if you're going to admit being wrong, always do it after the pig...
"I don't see how this isn't Armageddon for the rust belt."
....if they're one of the 300K-500K people whose unemployment checks have stopped this month, it IS.
So when do we make an offer to the US debtholders that they can't refuse since what is good for GM is good for the US?
So do the $1trillion in CDS written on GM debt get settled behind the scenes without a wimper like LEH?
"....if they're one of the 300K-500K people whose unemployment checks have stopped this month, it IS."
I thought Uncle Sam kicked in an extra six months of UI coverage in January....
Would it be possible to convert the Rust Belt to farming? As California dries up, we need new places to grow food. Seems like there is still a lot of water available there, even if the weather is only good for 1.5 to 2 crops per year.
just a disgrace..the death of an American icon. So much went wrong there was no hope of salvaging the company.
I found this interesting ..check it out Econ & Finance Articles Updated Daily http://is.gd/HGYt
Forget "fair." Forget "rule of law." Tell me... WILL IT WORK? I have to answer no. Now with the high probability that this scheme won't work someone reassure me that the unintended consequences don't far exceed any potential upside.
Whose looking forward to the next 100 years of GM innovation?
Government Motors- Workin hard so you dont have too.
What it are you referring to Dawg?
do they still run those annoying "Chevrolet an American Revolution" ads on the teevee?
All I know is my daughter is investing in dealer flooring programs, a badly managed car manufacturer, subprime abs paper and 30 billion more in funds to keep it going thru bankruptcy.....
How come they didn't save the Mustang Ranch? it was more productive, had endless customers, leverage always worked well and business delivered endless streams of profit....
I just dont get it...
Yeah, do the ad budgets get axed? That will not bode well for network tv.
CalculatedRisk,
Are any of your vehicles made by GM?
Well, this shouldn't affect the stock market OR the 'green shoots' theories, right? It's all priced in already, isn't it? Someone? Anyone? Bueller?
To paraphrase Richard Feynman:
In the final analysis, reality always trumps public relations.
Just when most people were convinced good times were here again, interest rates and commodities start their long climb upward. $3 gas and 6% interest rates will probably be enough to send us into the second leg down (or at least a long, slow stagnation.) The ATA numbers suck, too.
Isn't Thursday when they release the hotel REVPAR numbers?
We like living in a make-believe world.
//Well, this shouldn't affect the stock market OR the 'green shoots' theories, right? It's all priced in already, isn't it? Someone? Anyone? Bueller?//
Everything is all priced in to infinity and therefore the stock mkt should just be a flat line
forever.
I want a new Corvette before Government Motors decides that the car is politically incorrect, and cancels the program.
Hubris makes the choice, reality makes the decision.
//In the final analysis, reality always trumps public relations.//
What's the difference between a United Auto Worker and a government employee?
Which is the next industry to collapse? My guess is airlines. Like the auto industry, it is a supremely disfunctional industry incapable of being profitable. Also, heavily unionized and "strategic". Ripe for a bailout.
Would you buy a car from Govt. Motors? I'll try to keep an open mind, but my first instinct is - Have you ever heard of the Lada?
Yossarian- come on, an unshackled GM will drive the American economy forward!
Just ignore those from whom GM will unshackle itself. And forget who it just shackled itself to.
lawyerliz (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 3:25 pm
What it are you referring to Dawg?
Saving high cost jobs for union supporters of the current administration would be the cynical answer.
Preserving the status quo of business/industry/banking for further exploitation would be the even more cynical answer.
I have never understood the obsession of so called "liberals" with controlling the lives of others, not unlike conservatives wanting to to the same.
//I want a new Corvette before Government Motors decides that the car is politically incorrect, and cancels the program.//
Unions served their purpose initially but in the end they worked contrary to the company their members worked for. A house divided will never stand.....
The government employee gets paid?
lawyerliz
If you ask them now, no they won't cut ad spending more than they already have. It's all they have known. However since the crunch has happened, I'm sure the C-level has seen the same thing as the dealer level and that is you can cut your ad spending 80% and not lose one bit of market share. They won't dive in, but they have already got their toes wet in the pool of reduced marketing budgets. Water is warm, looks clean, probably deep enough
The only companies that survive will accept the commoditzation of the car. I expect Chrysler to release a feature length film to promote their inclusion of fridges where glove compartments used to be.
A big part of this is the fundamental value function for advertising is not the same. When people are primarily buying on credit, advertising makes a HUGE impact in terms of cost:reward. When people save up for their purchase, big difference. Consumers tend to evaluate choices like accountants. Won't make a difference what automakers spend. It takes 5 minutes to see what every company has on offer with the web. There goes the educating uninformed consumers value.
What about finance? It has been the worst performer of them all.. and it is the showpiece of "free enterprise".
//Like the auto industry, it is a supremely disfunctional industry incapable of being profitable. Also, heavily unionized and "strategic".//
Now, everybody who has bond insurance starts sweating the counterparty depth of pocket;-}
Now, we clear off the wreckage of the living dead from the 1979-1983 pileup and proceed to our massive augean stable of finance.
The new auto companies will be quite stable without those pesky long term debts and obligations swamping their balance sheet.
The entire auto industry (sans Ford for the moment) has just been given a second chance at success.
I would not be worried about their future, instead, I would be worried if I was in the FIRE part of the economy.
The Health care sector will be good for about five years, that is when the real bite of the health care reform will be felt by the folks living off of the fat of the land;-}
Nothing like transformation to keep the economy growing;-}
Someday this war's gonna end...
Finance had no unions.. no blue collar slobs. Right?
//Unions served their purpose initially but in the end they worked contrary to the company their members worked for. //
bankruptcy of a major American industrial corporation? doesn't seem very significant to me. an economy made up of government employees, the military, financial establishment, fast food and manicurists sounds like a leading world power to me.
Re: GM stock price
Part of the reason GM isn't at $0 is that it is still in both the Dow and S&P. It is a complete scam on the part of both companies to leave it there. Same with Citigroup, IMO. Every time someone buys SPY, DIA or an S&P500 or DOW mutual fund, some money ends up in GM. Taxpayers monthly 401k "investments" are buying GM all the way to $0.
EvilHenryPaulson,
I hope GM and Chrysler close down every canadian auto plant and stop using canadian parts in their cars.
Lucifer:
Finance already collapsed and is living off life support. We need fresh, new failures. Think outside the box.
Disregard my cheery exterior. I am crying within as I watch our society disintegrate.
Ahhhh, RATM, ahhhh.
Everything is all priced in to infinity and therefore the stock mkt should just be a flat line
forever.
lawerliz
lol, why yes, I agree.
Nuke,
It was never about unions or capitalists. It was about accountability and transparency. Reduce or remove that in any industry and people will go nuts.
EvilHenry I guess a lot of the ads are produced and paid for already too.
Well, maybe not paid for.
Do they pay the tv people late, like they do the suppliers.
Several people I've talked to are worried about GM.
Lucifer:
Yup. If only we had a term for that...Moral, something. Well whatever.
"I thought Uncle Sam kicked in an extra six months of UI coverage in January...."
6-mos State & 6-mos Federal = NOW for hundreds of thousands. I know we supply veggies to 2-food pantries and a Senior Center. You'd think they'd seen the messiah when I ask if they'd take "unpretty" veggies from the Ranch. It's scary. There are MANY who have NOTHING - regular people:
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a top-rate carpenter, she had just finished vet tech school. They just adopted two children they had been fostering. His woodworking business has failed, house in the throes of F/C, they've split up, the kids a week at a time at each parent (in the home or at the business), no money for food, no job and no unemployment check.........
.............. and we sit in front of a 'puter screen complaining.
Hey Rob Dawg,
I posted this on your blog also, but, could you link me more information about Oxnard's street leaseback situation? I saw the LA Times article from January, but it made no mention of any possible default. I work for an oil company that has its wells in Oxnard. Considering that we are developing plans to shoot seismic data along Oxnard's streets the possibility of the city defaulting on the leaseback is a bit of concern. Thanks!
Oil is up 38% since March 9th as priced in USD.
The S&P500 is up 34% since March 9th, in USD.
Is the market up 34%?
How awful Black
Nuke,
A society that considers some people to be intrinsically more trustworthier than others is asking for the consequences.
If you believe that doctors, police, firefighters etc are intrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think reverands, chaplins, rabbis, priests are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think bankers, lawyers, managers, accountants are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
"what's the difference between a UAW worker and a govt employee?"
About $5 per hour
Except the govt worker gets to keep their job longer.
My heart goes out to small business owners. They are being decimated. My Godmother's family owns a car rental/auto repair business in NYC. Business is way down. The State and City have decided to fund bloated budgets and thousands of useless government jobs on the backs of small business owners. They, as well as as many of their colleagues, are being crushed. They are thinking of liquidating the business and retiring to the old country.
"Part of the reason GM isn't at $0 is that it is still in both the Dow and S&P. It is a complete scam on the part of both companies to leave it there. Same with Citigroup, IMO. Every time someone buys SPY, DIA or an S&P500 or DOW mutual fund, some money ends up in GM. Taxpayers monthly 401k "investments" are buying GM all the way to $0."
Excellent point, one that everyone should understand when they pump money blindly into their 401K Index Fund investments - with GM, Citi, BAC, etc. as part of the index. And then you wonder who is buying?
It is you.
Yet another disservice done by stock market "experts": just buy the market index.
My small business clients are being crushed also, but it is from lack of business, I can't say it is from the
gov't. Fla is still relatively low tax. It may be that taxes will increase a lot, but so far, gov't is neither helping nor
hurting.
@ Comrade Terry - Agreed, Pavel. No one who has seen it could want it. Those who are cavalier about it are ignorant of it.
So Comrade Terry, have you ever been caught in the middle of a full blown battle like Fallujah? Unlike 99.99% of the posters here who have no clue, I have. As a civilian in a war decades ago between two sworn blood enemies: the Turks & Greeks. If it wasn't for a major emergency evacuation conducted by joint UK & US forces, I might not even be here to make any ominous declarations.
When I say war is coming, I neither want it nor am I ignorant of it. I merely state it as a fact. War is the only constant - we humans are nothing but savages fighting over scarce resources. It has come, like clockwork, every two generations dating far into pre-history. Step back from your emotions, your hopes & desires, and take a cold hard look at what people are capable of when faced with no alternatives.
In NYS, they are taking it is both ends. Very sad. The top state income tax rate is now over 10%. It really doesn't pay to work in NYS anymore. NYC is even worse. I am insulated. As active duty military, I pay tax in my home of record, which doesn't have an income tax.
Snerf:
Cyprus?
Thread Music: Hit the Road Jack by Ray Charles (1961 live)
Ray Charles would have made a great Treasury Secretary
GM and Chrysler will be another AMTAX project and never off the dole.
I feel we should cue the scene where Scarlett O'Hara, coming home to find everything ruined and broken thrusts her fist in the air, determined to survive.
All in all, as horsemen go, I prefer disease.
Excellent musical suggestion, EvilH.
"Do they pay the tv people late, like they do the suppliers."
Do they get to break their advertising agreements? If so, that might hurt GE, among others.
re: GM, advertising
They still have their Olympic sponsorship. I'm guessing there are ring fenced budgets which are safe, but don't expect them to be renewed upon expiry
I'm tired and hungry.
G'nite.
Maybe Obama could get Citroen involved with buying GM!
MyKillK (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 3:48 pm
Hey Rob Dawg,
I posted this on your blog also, but, could you link me more information about Oxnard's street leaseback situation? I saw the LA Times article from January, but it made no mention of any possible default. I work for an oil company that has its wells in Oxnard. Considering that we are developing plans to shoot seismic data along Oxnard's streets the possibility of the city defaulting on the leaseback is a bit of concern. Thanks!
Mike, I'll get to it. I've got a deadline right now. Thanks.
Black Star Ranch wrote:
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a top-rate carpenter, she had just finished vet tech school. They just adopted two children they had been fostering. His woodworking business has failed, house in the throes of F/C, they've split up, the kids a week at a time at each parent (in the home or at the business), no money for food, no job and no unemployment check.........
Absolutely tragic.
Here is another anecdote:
A local couple - were the American Dream. He's a property manager for a relocation broker, she a special ed consultant for a large school district (with a PhD). Income between them around $400k/yr. They spent about $100k last year adopting a baby girl, completed the adoption in December. Because they made so much, they bought a house big enough to take in two parents and one sibling. He was laid off in March with 1 months severance pay, she received a lay off notice in April that takes effect July 1. Zero income, lots of bills and a new baby. They will get unemployment checks that combined will not cover their car payments.
.............. and we sit in front of a 'puter screen complaining.
GM advertising-
expect less 4 color coupon mailers, postcard service reminders, customer invitation only events, sales mailers, credit offers etc..
email, telematics and automated service scheduling along with windows indash pc that only works below 3 miles hour.....
print houses, data management, fullfillment and graphic artist employees will feel it...
The State of VA State Police over the last 10 months or so have a new revenue collecting plan. About once a month they shut down I-66, either am or pm, and run everyone through a roadblock looking for HOV violaters. The 1st time ticket is $500 and 3 points I think. They did it this am and backed up traffic a few miles.
The Health care sector will be good for about five years, that is when the real bite of the health care reform will be felt by the folks living off of the fat of the land;-}
I think the reform may well go through before that -- I'm betting 2012, because it's a presidential election year and the state of health care will be pretty bad by then -- but the business model of the health care leeches might well take a couple more years to die.
"rumors of war"
Some things are inevitable, not because of circumstance or predictability, but because of who we are.
I suspect that some of us know what we are capable of.
Some things can't be fixed, even in an American world that no longer exists.
even in an American world that no longer exists.
I know mine is almost gone. Bulldozed, emigrated, and dated
Wow, doom is no longer popular?
Look! I'm lucifer
Lucifer (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 5:56 pm
Nuke,
A society that considers some people to be intrinsically more trustworthier than others is asking for the consequences.
If you believe that doctors, police, firefighters etc are intrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think reverands, chaplins, rabbis, priests are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
If you think bankers, lawyers, managers, accountants are instrinscially more trustworthier than others, they will screw you.
There is no other option in a society devoid of ethics and based on self-interest than complete distrust. It is unfortunate that we live ever more in a society in which such a position becomes necessary... it seems like everything is a marketing scam being run by someone looking to take advantage of us... we have built a paranoid world and immolated the social contract all in the name of personal gain. I hope the tradeoff was worth it.
This thread, and my comments are dedicated to you!
Looks like plenty of indirects sending happy beams around the bond lightshow today. Pity. Even Jansen bailed for the close.
Next time.
C
airlines have been going in and out of bk for decades, so i don't expect a major implosion there. they've got it down to a tee.
Meanwhile in Deutschland...the green sprouts harvest is looking - nicht sehr gut
Exports were down 9.7 percent from the fourth quarter and company investment declined 7.9 percent, according to the Federal Statistics Office. The Office reported that gross domestic product fell a seasonally adjusted 3.8 percent from the previous three months, confirming an initial estimate from May 15. That’s the largest drop since quarterly data were first compiled in 1970
From October to December 2008, the German economy had already contracted by 2.2%, and by 0.5% in each of the the second and third quarters.
According to the statistics office, the decline in economic performance was mainly due to movements in the balance between exports and imports of both goods and services. As in the fourth quarter of 2008, German exports fell much more than German imports in the first three months of this year. While exports declined 9.7 % year on year, imports were down 5.4%, so that the chnaged balance of exports and imports contributed minus 2.2 percentage points to the decline of GDP.
Rays of light is the German green sprouts
The first-quarter drop in GDP marked an unprecedented fourth successive quarterly contraction for Germany’s economy. The government expects the economy to contract 6 percent this year, while ECB council member Axel Weber said earlier that while “rays of light” are positive, there’s “no reliable indication that the global economy is past the worst.” The euro-region economy may only “gradually stabilize during the latter part of 2009.”
Pimco's Gross: Boom times are over FundWatch - MarketWatch
-good luck, backside edge of the hurricane coming right up.
Guys, they aren't liquidating it. There will still be a GM, for better or worse.
The eurowatch blog post is good. He talks about how "stablization" is really depleted inventories being replinished.
"There is a massive drop (60%) in new orders for machineryExport orders slumped 60 percent while domestic demand dropped 52 percent. So things actually seem to have deteriorated in April with respect to March. No good news this."
There will still be a GM, for better or worse.
well they are closing at least 16 plants, plus downstream cuts at suppliers, all the indirect jobs and ancillary businesses.
AND after all that they still might not be able to make cars at a profit, especially without home ATM financing and loosey-goosey credit.
AND Chrysler is going through the same.
So I remain very pessimistic about the prospects for the rust belt.
Where is the good news?
US
Rail, Truck, and shipping is not happening. No signs of increase. You consider "stabilization" at these levels good?
Europe
Germany is starting look like waffles/
Japan
They are past waffling and moving to toast status.
I am unhappy. I spent the last few years learning this stuff and none seems to apply. It is like I spent all my time learning how to be a Novell Certified Engineer.
nova - you wanted an update. My 6 fuzzy little bundles of joy arrived today. I'll keep you posted.
You didn't go MCSE? It was all the rage, and easy, and highly profitable. Until... it wasn't.
nova,
I thought this from the same post was interesting: “My guess is that the Landesbanken alone will cause ultimate losses of 8-10% of German GDP, which is real money. Compare that sum with the 5% of GDP costs for the US S&L crisis”.
That doesn't included Deutsche Bank and Hypo and several others. That's a significant hit.
Very cool outsider. Thanks. If you take a foto of them I will write a post about it on afterthecrash.net
AND after all that they still might not be able to make cars at a profit, especially without home ATM financing and loosey-goosey credit.
There will still be plenty of loosey-goosey credit from GMAC, err, Ally Bank. Profits? Who knows.
It is like I spent all my time learning how to be a Novell Certified Engineer.
===========
wait ... it is like that or it is that?
Kung fu.
I was going to post that but figured I was already overdoing it. The Landesbanken are, I thought, bullet proof.
loosey-goosey credit from GMAC
===========
last I heard GMAC's lending standards were way way more strict than past few years
I don't see how this isn't Armageddon for the rust belt. I pray for my friends and family there.</i.>
Yeah? Me too.
I pray they can be contained.
either way...a waste of time and money.
Gross also said, with certainty, that the dollar will lose its reserve status. "We simply have too much debt," he said.
ruh-roh
Sorry, strange day. Part of it was spent looking at fotos of a man who had been beaten to death by his friends with their fists and boots.
Give it a few more years and Michigan can join Canada and no one will notice.
holy hell. 18 mo's ago if you would have said that almost all major investment banks would go BK, 2 of the major 3 auto co's would BK, and housing would drop 20%+ nationwide i would have thought the US and most of the world would be way worse off than we are now. seems things are more resilient than i thought but is it like the summer of '07 when markets whistled past the graveyard until the grim reaper swung the scythe and POW! right in the throat.
No worries nova, i just completed my PhD in buggy whip manufacturing.
i'm pretty sure canada will notice if they absorb detroit
Im not sure if I am more worried about the 3 million toothless rustbelt J6P' werkers wandering in search of food and werk or the 15 million toothless migrant laborers in China wandering around looking for food and werk...
are we after_the_crash.yet?
or should I try and scare nova?
There is no other option in a society devoid of ethics and based on self-interest than complete distrust. It is unfortunate that we live ever more in a society in which such a position becomes necessary... it seems like everything is a marketing scam being run by someone looking to take advantage of us... we have built a paranoid world and immolated the social contract all in the name of personal gain. I hope the tradeoff was worth it.
It was ever thus. Even under the social contract, distrust reigned. Distrust -- and hatred -- sundered the contract. Now those further mutilated by this unconscionable dog-eat-dog regimen are held up as reasons for further distrust.
Our digital knowingness has multiplied evidence, making it seem as if we are surrounded by ever more debauched and soulless creatures. This is an epistemological illusion: it was always so, as everything from literature to folk song and tales reminds us. Man's a beast.
That's why you should keep him well fed.
Scare me. I live for the thrills
How did you come to be gazing at such photos, Nova? Job?
The job.
What friends that guy had.
What's good for GM is good for the country right ... oh wait that was in 1960's when America was a creditor nation and the economic and manufacturing superpower ! Now we're swimming in debt U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
and much of the world is laughing at BB and his printing press operation that will bring us hyperinflation.
America now #1 producer of bullshit financial ponzi schemes while they pass the bill to the American taxpayers.!
Not as bad as awhile back when I had to look at execution videos. One of them, the man was kneeling when they shot him in the head. He made an undescrible sound. It was like a howl and the sound of his soul departing. That, I think, will stay with me forever.
hey coinz, just out of curiosity, what are your price targets for gold?
i keep balking at the price when i get to the checkout screen and wuss out. i only need a few more ounces to accomplish my gold holdings goal but just can't shell out the cash.
I thought your job was apostle of doom
Only a part time gig. My other fun thing now is writing a history of Einsatzgruppe A.
nova (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:12 pm
Sorry, strange day. Part of it was spent looking at fotos of a man who had been beaten to death by his friends with their fists and boots.
You just have to become a psychopath. Then these things won't bother you. It's very efficient. A little prick on the finger and you won't feel a thing...
now seriously, I have no context in which to relate, but whatever it is worth, you do have my sympathies. I can't put myself in those shoes.
GM bondholders unite for expected battle
Not so fast on the notion that there is any kind of "agreement" with the bondholders.
The orchestrated attempt by Obongo's ministry of propaganda to spin this stinks. It smells like an attempt to strong arm the bondholders by creating fear/uncertainty. Of course the useful stooges in the NY Times go along.
I suppose that's good background for being an apostle of doom.
ResistanceIsFeudal,
Thanks, it could be far worse. Real dead people are usually very stinky.
That Barton Fink Feeling (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:19 pm
Our digital knowingness has multiplied evidence, making it seem as if we are surrounded by ever more debauched and soulless creatures. This is an epistemological illusion: it was always so, as everything from literature to folk song and tales reminds us. Man's a beast.
Interesting. We just have better visibility into ourselves; more transparency, to borrow a mockingly-used political phrase. The media is much more efficient these days at judging public taste -- so it is showing us far more of exactly what we demand, instead of what we woudl actually claim or publicly acknowledge that we want or value.
I can't disagree with you.
It probably won't be the big things that people will miss in forty years.
My daughter, in the year 2040, talking to her grandaughter.
"Why child! Back then we had a 60 gallon water heater and I would use it all up when I took a shower!"
Wide eyed 14 year "Wow!"
"Would it be possible to convert the Rust Belt to farming? "
It's not labor intensive. It requires special skills acquired over a lifetime. Who would fund it with credit? - farmers live by credit. Where is the profitable market for the products? Farming is a business - where is the business plan?
"There will still be a GM, for better or worse."
Perhaps GM will be beaten to death by its friends.
Novell 4.0 was an awesome network O/S.
However, I've learned to be particular about what APIs I waste time to memorize.
Would it be possible to convert the Rust Belt to farming?
I don't understand the question; there is already a shitload of farming in the rust belt.
nova (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:28 pm
ResistanceIsFeudal,
Thanks, it could be far worse. Real dead people are usually very stinky.
Apparently human corpses are to the scale of awful smells what the habanero pepper is to the scale of hot peppers. I wouldn't want to find out. But to put this marginally back on topic, it's a shame investment vehicles don't advertise their health or state of decay in a manner no less obvious
Geithner to reassure China on investment
Will reassure China that its massive US bond holdings are safe despite concerns.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
More Tsing Tao please Tsingtao Home Page
OT - Check the graphs for a bubble deflating..... Lakewood, Ca
90715 Real Estate | Redfin
All this happy talk about GM surviving. Why do I hear these words?
New paradigm, synergy, future technology, revolutionary design,
"I can't put myself in those shoes."
Me, either.
My feet are too big.
Don't worry Pavel the gov't will provide us each 40 acres to get started.
"Part of it was spent looking at fotos of a man who had been beaten to death by his friends with their fists and boots."
I once had photos of a man who had been beaten to death in a police cell. No one was ever charged, although the medical examiner's report affirmed the fatal beating and the place where it occurred. When I posted that information on a certain web site I was accused of being anti-police. I seldom post there any more.
US economy carries about $20 trillion of excess debt.
Until that debt is eliminated, the idea of a healthy boom is a mirage.
More Tsing Tao please
GM is dead. By the time they get it together they will be 10 years behind. Their only hope is to become the Radioshack of the automotive world.
"I don't understand the question; there is already a shitload of farming in the rust belt."
I assumed the suggestion concerned putting auto workers into corn and soybeans.
The Treasury official acknowledged Thursday that the budget deficit was "going to increase sharply" as a result of aggressive measures to jolt the economy from recession but added that once recovery was firmly established, "we are going to walk back these measures and the deficit will decrease.
"In general, Treasury believes that by maintaining the most liquid debt markets in the world, by maintaining strong economic fundamentals, we will continue to attracts both domestic and international investment."
More Tsing Tao please
Pavel, a man in MD was choked to death in jail after he hurt a cop and no one was ever charged. That was, maybe, a year ago.
the suggestion concerned putting auto workers into corn and soybeans.
That's not going to taste very good.
liquid debt markets = More Tsing Tao please
cheap fertilizer...
I'm thinking about having a 3rd Shiner Bock.
@ Citizen Scotto ...no grab a Tsing Tao because you have 2 yrs to learn Mandarin
A collapse of our financial system would be very painful in the near term, but in the long term would actually improve quality of life. Imagine not needing both parents to work in order to keep paying the mortgage. Imagine the majority of our workforce doing productive things, rather than pushing paper and leeching off of the productive/creative output of others.
So Nova, I'm certainly not as pessimistic as you about our future. Sure, we're going to have to cut back on the resources we consume. But the technological advances we're capable of, in terms of energy, conservation, innovation -- it would really be amazing. And rather than pushing our best and brightest minds into those fields, we're propping up dead/dying zombies. Sure the boomers are going to be screwed, as their savings will be wiped out at the same time our economy must reinvent itself. But the future prospects, assuming we don't ruin this country via war/despotism, are surprisingly good.
It will happen eventually, regardless. Hopefully the intermediate transformative phase will happen with as little pain/suffering as possible.
I don't want to go on the cart...I feel happy...I feel happy....
I'm sure there are not enough farming jobs to absorb displaced auto and auto supply chain workers.
CalculatedRisk (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 3:06 pm
Weird that GM common stock is still trading at over $1.00.
Strictly the 'options' price.
GM may be toast but my guess is the US plants of Nissan and Toyota are not picking up their slack. GM was the biggest buyer of computer chips in the US not to long ago I think.
km4 - does drinking chinese beer help you to learn mandarin?
broward (homepage, profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:39 pm
the suggestion concerned putting auto workers into corn and soybeans.
That's not going to taste very good.
I was going to suggest "Soylent Brown", but... no. However, if we're looking for a biofuels revolution taste is irrelevant (also in the suggestion)...
I sense the cynical and hardcore tone of these recovery stories; I would like to add..
if we cant make the cars eat the food, whose gonna eat the food?...if its up to pavel, we'll be feeding the people to the cars, cuz the people dont eat enough soylent beans..
GM best recovery story ever since the death of Lee Iacocca...mail it in on the Toweled Pony Express.....
give it up......
sip it....
gotta go kids... lovin all day long <3
nova (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 8:39 pm reply Ignore user Pavel, a man in MD was choked to death in jail after he hurt a cop and no one was ever charged. That was, maybe, a year ago.
Rule Number One: Hurt a cop ... and you're dead.
(I think it's in the Union handbook ....)
Gavshire Hathaway,
I hope you are right. I really want to believe you are right. Just that the kind of change you are talking about is never without a huge cost. Either in blood, money, or belief systems...
GM may be trading over $1 due to the sheer corruption and greed of the NYSE. Being a Dow component, the stock is included in many index funds designed to track the broad markets. That gives the stock an underlying bid due to mindless buying by 401K plans set to autopilot. I'm sure more than a few of you will be buying GM tomorrow, whether you want to or not. I will not, having parked all my 201k's in short term treasuries.
Really the stock should have been removed from the Dow at the beginning of the year, but I am guessing that making money off commissions is more important than protecting investors from themselves.
Perhaps Sharecropping and Tenant Farming 2.0 will work just fine whereby a tenant rents, for cash or a share of crops, farm property from a landowner. Different variations of tenant arrangements exist, including sharecropping, in which, typically, a landowner provides all of the capital and a tenant all of the labor for a fifty percent share of crops.
As America transforms to Amerika !
@Citizen Scotto (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 5:45 pm
km4 - does drinking chinese beer help you to learn mandarin?
Yes ask Jackie Chan
does drinking chinese beer help you to learn mandarin?
It helps you believe you know mandarin.
May 29 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s unemployment rate climbed to a five-year high in April and job prospects worsened, signaling household spending will weigh on the economy just as exports are showing signs of improving.
The real question I'm asking myself with GM is this:
What is the value in keeping the company alive?
--Product: Plenty of other car manufacturers; marginal benefit of having GM around is pretty low. Their product is essentially unnecessary
--Jobs: If we're propping them up to preserve jobs, we're wasting our time. Might as well hire people to dig holes and fill them, if we don't need the product. Our labor is uncompetitive from a wage perspective anyway
--Strategic / Military: We may need the industrial base, if we're planning on going to war
--Political: Suicide not to prop up this zombie.
In conclusion, saving GM is utter foolishness unless you are a politician, or planning on going to war soon. Or both:(.
It helps you believe you know mandarin.
============
thanks for the laugh broward-- apparently it also helps you believe you know Jackie Chan
Gavshire-
--Strategic / Military: We may need the industrial base, if we're planning on going to war
--Political: Suicide not to prop up this zombie.
Both of these IMO. You shut those puppies down right now and you'll have blood in the streets for sure.
bANK fAILURE (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 8:45 pm
GM best recovery story ever since the death of Lee Iacocca...mail it in on the Toweled Pony Express.....
Lee is alive and well ...
Lee Iacocca
Gavshire Hathaway (profile) wrote on Thu, 5/28/2009 - 7:43 pm
A collapse of our financial system would be very painful in the near term, but in the long term would actually improve quality of life. Imagine not needing both parents to work in order to keep paying the mortgage. Imagine the majority of our workforce doing productive things, rather than pushing paper and leeching off of the productive/creative output of others.
Even with financial system collapse a litany of property rights and a legal structure to defend them will persist that put us right back in the FIRE shortly. Until the human conceit of "money for nothing" is finally eradicated (fat chance!) there will always be an exploited creative/productive class over whom rentiers (and would-be rentiers) fight. Same as it ever was. But making stuff that people want again would be a step in the right direction, at least, and a financial "reset" would push off our day of being owned by the international banking oligarchy by at least a few decades again. Surprisingly, deflation hurts the monied classes the least, and inflation hurts them the most, so I'm surprised a bit by what's going on...
a friend of mine, spend $5000 in classes to get his CNE when he was 16. was the 2nd youngest in america or something.
Of course all of us still were in high school and he didnt earn a penny from it.
It sounds like they made the bondholders a deal they couldn't refuse.
Hey, that's my line!