Sen Dick Durbin on the US Senate: Banks "frankly own the place".
Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) has been battling the banks the last few weeks in an effort to get 60 votes lined up for bankruptcy reform. He's losing.
On Monday night in an interview with a radio host back home, he came to a stark conclusion: the banks own the Senate.
"And the banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place," he said on WJJG 1530 AM's "Mornings with Ray Hanania." Progress Illinois picked up the quote.
The battle lines are being drawn. The banks have shown Obama they can move the market where they want it to go. They stared him down in Detroit. Let's see if Obama has the courage or desire to stand his ground.
Stay out super late tonight
picking apples, making pies
put a little something in our lemonade and take it with us
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
Tiptoe through our shiny city
with our diamond slippers on
do our gay ballet on ice
bluebirds on our shoulders
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
Turn the light out say goodnight
no thinking for a little while
lets not try to figure out everything at once
It’s hard to keep track of you falling through the sky
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
As a part of the restructuring, most manufacturing operations will be temporarily idled effective Monday, May 4, 2009. Normal production schedules will resume when the transaction is completed, which is anticipated within the next 30 to 60 days. Hourly employees will receive unemployment benefits, as well as supplemental pay that will amount to most of their base wages.
Keep in mind that during the period when facilities are idled, all company-sponsored healthcare and other insurance coverage will continue. All qualified employee pension and 401(k) funds are protected by federal law from Chrysler's creditors; these funds cannot be used by the company to meet any other obligations. Upon approval of the transaction, the new company is expected to continue relationships with most employees, dealers and suppliers.
well, dr (baron von) munch(hausen)....there is this argument that there are somehow skills in that industry which somehow spread themselves all over the place to add to wonderful new things to the economy at large.
dr munch (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 4:03 am
This is like a preview for GM. My prediction: GM bondholders win, taxpayers lose.
America is fine without a single TV produced in the country. Why are cars different? Detroit cocaine dealers notwithstanding.
Emperor Obama arbitrarily decreed that we "have to" make cars, even if it ruins us.
seriously, aside from AIG, who else would have been stupid enough to be a net seller of Chrysler CDS? I'd imagine the CDS is just one big circle jerk, with the money being made on arbing the spreads.
Basel Too (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 4:11 am
seriously, aside from AIG, who else would have been stupid enough to be a net seller of Chrysler CDS? I'd imagine the CDS is just one big circle jerk, with the money being made on arbing the spreads.
Man those numbers in that report are amazing - This is like a dead whale washed up on the beach... bury it quick... And Fiat is going to save this? Excuse my I am squirting milk out of my nose laughing..... Fiat reminds me of a toddler with a towel pretending to be Superman.... dont jump off the roof kid - you really cant fly....
Not One Cent - damn right he should declare we "have to" make cars. If the economy was rationalized tomorrow, wages would go to a dollar an hour and/or we wouldn't make much of anything in the US. Millions upon millions upon millions of US jobs would vanish. Our trading partners are mercantilist through exchange rate manipulation and unfair trade practices.
You can't be a 'great' country with no manufacturing. People have to do something, national resources should be used, not idled entirely because some other country does it cheaper. About 99.99% of the US population is not going to be employed designing solar panels or working in biotech research, the country needs people working, doing things. It's that kind of thinking which has the US importing 70% of it's oil - because other countries make it cheaper. The US has been sucked dry of capital in the past 30 years - and in return we got trinkets like Ipods and cheap shoes from China. Time to save and produce locally, corrupt trade deals have failed the US people.
This is just like the housing bubble. Chrysler has too much debt. Everything else is distraction. What I see here is creditors calculating how much blood they can drain. Some want as much blood as there is. Other want to draw off as much as possible while not killing the donor. Sad actually.
Do you think there will be a point where the actions of these bankster types might create enough anger and suffering that it won't be "business as usual"?
"But no, the Bernanke default position on Japan was that its central bankers didn't try hard enough. The Japanese, by contrast, believe their single biggest error was taking forever to take on and clean up the politically connected banking sector. Sound familiar?
So the latest of the "when in doubt, do more" syndrome is that the Fed is trying to get in front of an imminent commercial real estate bust by letting banks use the TALF for commercial real estate loans, thereby keeping credit cheap. The reason? That market is ready to go into free fall. Leon Black of Apollo Management, predicts a commercial real estate "back hole" that could deliver as much as $2 trillion in losses. to banks.
On the other hand, the chances are pretty good that you'll slave away at some miserable job the rest of your life. That's because you were in all likelihood born into the wrong social class. Let's face it — you're a member of the working caste. Sorry!
As a result, you don't have the education, upbringing, connections, manners, appearance, and good taste to ever become one of us. In fact, you'd probably need a book the size of the yellow pages to list all the unfair advantages we have over you. That's why we're so relieved to know that you still continue to believe all those silly fairy tales about "justice" and "equal opportunity" in America.
Of course, in a hierarchical social system like ours, there's never been much room at the top to begin with. Besides, it's already occupied by us — and we like it up here so much that we intend to keep it that way. But at least there's usually someone lower in the social hierarchy you can feel superior to and kick in the teeth once in a while. Even a lowly dishwasher can easily find some poor slob further down in the pecking order to sneer and spit at. So be thankful for migrant workers, prostitutes, and homeless street people.
Always remember that if everyone like you were economically secure and socially privileged like us, there would be no one left to fill all those boring, dangerous, low-paid jobs in our economy. And no one to fight our wars for us, or blindly follow orders in our totalitarian corporate institutions. And certainly no one to meekly go to their grave without having lived a full and creative life. So please, keep up the good work!
You also probably don't have the same greedy, compulsive drive to possess wealth, power, and prestige that we have. And even though you may sincerely want to change the way you live, you're also afraid of the very change you desire, thus keeping you and others like you in a nervous state of limbo. So you go through life mechanically playing your assigned social role, terrified what others would think should you ever dare to "break out of the mold."
Naturally, we try to play you off against each other whenever it suits our purposes: high-waged workers against low-waged, unionized against non-unionized, Black against White, male against female, American workers against Japanese against Mexican against.... We continually push your wages down by invoking "foreign competition," "the law of supply and demand," "national security," or "the bloated federal deficit." We throw you on the unemployed scrap heap if you step out of line or jeopardize our profits. And to give you an occasional break from the monotony of our daily economic blackmail, we allow you to participate in our stage-managed electoral shell games, better known to you ordinary folks as "elections." Happily, you haven't a clue as to what's really happening — instead, you blame "Aliens," "Tree-hugging Environmentalists," "Niggers," "Jews," Welfare Queens," and countless others for your troubled situation.
We're also very pleased that many of you still embrace the "work ethic," even though most jobs in our economy degrade the environment, undermine your physical and emotional health, and basically suck your one and only life right out of you. We obviously don't know much about work, but we're sure glad you do!
Of course, life could be different. Society could be intelligently organized to meet the real needs of the general population. You and others like you could collectively fight to free yourselves from our domination. But you don't know that. In fact, you can't even imagine that another way of life is possible. And that's probably the greatest, most significant achievement of our system — robbing you of your imagination, your creativity, your ability to think and act for yourself.
So we'd truly like to thank you from the bottom of our heartless hearts. Your loyal sacrifice makes possible our corrupt luxury; your work makes our system work. Thanks so much for "knowing your place" — without even knowing it! "
May 1 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve is close to offering investors five-year loans to buy commercial mortgage- backed securities, granting an industry request, a person familiar with the matter said.
The decision on extending the term of such loans under the Fed’s Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility isn’t yet final, the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said yesterday. The Wall Street Journal reported the state of the decision earlier yesterday. In December, the Fed lengthened the term of TALF loans to three years from one year.
Government Motors will be like Acorn, Americorps - a taxpayer subsidized campaign machine for the left with overpaid autoworkers also being subsidized by the taxpayers.... Sort of Amtrak, without the shiny trains... There will be an executive dining room though - also subsidized....
Lucifer,
Throughout the eons of time we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, this has been our destiny.
Now, at this point in time, we either recognize it and evolve, or die.
[Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership]
It's going to be fascinating to watch as Obama's workers' paradise of Soviet America devolves. Ford will have the UAW, a competitor, as its labor source, and negotiations should be fun to watch. 4 years is a long time for Ford to try and tough it out against the decimated cost structures at GM/Chrysler and fighting the unions at the same time. They won't be able to make it, as we strive to produce new Ladas. Obama will destroy Ford too.
Man those numbers in that report are amazing - This is like a dead whale washed up on the beach... bury it quick... And Fiat is going to save this? Excuse my I am squirting milk out of my nose laughing..... Fiat reminds me of a toddler with a towel pretending to be Superman.... dont jump off the roof kid - you really cant fly....
:: ::
BK will make those numbers much smaller - turning the whale into a wail pretty fast much to the consternation of the creditors. They will get nothing and like it no matter how this ends or who 'wins'. The resultant company will be easily digested by a Fiat or any other automobile mfgr.
1] You see the universe as deterministic, I do not.. While you can try to shape the future, you cannot be sure that you will succeed (regardless of how much power or money you have).
2] On the scale of the universe (or even the earth), humans -as a species are insignificant. People have issues accepting that idea, because humans tend to associate meaning in life with their self-perceived importance.
//If you think money and power don't shape the future you are naive.//
I'd say that was a joint effort, just like running this country into the ground was a two-party effort. - TJ
Exactly. Management gets the union they deserve, the one they create for themselves. Same applies for the union - they get the management they deserve, the one they forge for themselves.
What is the old proverb? Choose your enemies well, it is they you shall become. Applies here and in spades.
By the way when I was a factory rat we used to recruit the meanest nastiest grievance writing union shop stewards to become mgmt foreman - the very same skills when applied the other way worked wonders on their own. Shitty? Yes. Tactically efficient? Absolutely.
These guys all know how to play the game. They are all elbows and knees - both sides.
SS Trustees Report on the status of the OASDI and Medicare Part A trust funds is typically available first week of April. Still not available as of now. Rumors are that a decade has been cut off from the current OASDI estimate. Medicare Part A is beyond hope.
Normal recessions are due to a decline in a business sector. This is a decline in asset values which backhands all Americans at once. PCE will not bottom rather gyrate with government spending and stimulus. There will not be a real bottom for another year at least... IMO of course
1] You see the universe as deterministic, I do not.. While you can try to shape the future, you cannot be sure that you will succeed (regardless of how much power or money you have).
~ I said shape ... of course "the best laid plans" ... but the direction and ground rules are shaped by TPTB ...
~~~~
2] On the scale of the universe (or even the earth), humans -as a species are insignificant. People have issues accepting that idea, because humans tend to associate meaning in life with their self-perceived importance.
~ I'm sure you could say that about Hitler ... but I wouldn't ...
How does "Chrysler Moai" sound as the next car model name?
On average, they stand 13 feet high and weigh 14 tons, human heads-on-torsos carved in the male form from rough hardened volcanic ash. The islanders call them "moai," and they have puzzled ethnographers, archaeologists, and visitors to the island since the first European explorers arrived here in 1722. In their isolation, why did the early Easter Islanders undertake this colossal statue-building effort? Unfortunately, there is no written record (and the oral history is scant) to help tell the story of this remote land, its people, and the significance of the nearly 900 giant moai that punctuate Easter Island's barren landscape.NOVA Online | Secrets of Easter Island | Stone Giants
Not according to the folks over at Angry Bear. They'll point out that even though the actual "cash" is drying up, those "special" Treasuries are earning all kinds of interest which'll more than make up the difference. Don't you just love it?
Basel Too (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 5:04 am
SS Trustees Report on the status of the OASDI and Medicare Part A trust funds is typically available first week of April. Still not available as of now. Rumors are that a decade has been cut off from the current OASDI estimate. Medicare Part A is beyond hope.
workers on the assembly line and especially those union shop stewards
those poor managers and directors on the board and executives on the top floor never had a chance
they were out smarted, out maneuvered and out gunned by those damned socialist worker types
i feel so bad for those poor defenseless corporate executive officers and the major stockholders...they were just lead like lambs to the slaughter...oh the horror oh the humanity
the workers are giving up 5 billion owed to them (health and retirement benefits) in exchange for 55 % equity
( and have agreed to 100 dollar reduction per vehicle produced in wages and benefits)
we have to hope they fail
because employees having half interest in a corporation and making it work would just be intollerable
BTW - if you didn't take time to read the link to Steven Jakubowski's site CR put up on page one I strongly encourage you to do it. Without something like this it is like going to a hockey game and not buying the program - you better know the game and the teams real well or it is going to just look like a lot of chaos.
I took a class called 'Managing For Profitability' when I was in pursuit of my mfg masters... it was originally called 'Managing the Firm in Crisis' but nobody signed up for that [looked bad when asking your boss for tuition reimbursement... "We aren't in CRISIS, why the hell take THAT course?"]. Once they changes the name people signed up in droves.
In it I had to write a paper on business bankruptcy & do a presentation... I wondered why and asked the prof... after all I'm no lawyer & don't want to be - lawyers do BK not mfg engineers. He was in his late 60s and had run a number of large mfg firms [big companies - fortune 500 firms]... He said "If you are in mfg long enough you'll run into bankruptcy - you might as well learn the basics now. It will effect your life more than you can ever imagine." Man am I glad he made us at least dip our toes in. I make no claim to understand a lot about the topic but at least I'm not completely clueless. This is going to be quite an event.
What happens when the old control system fails. It would not be the first time in history..
//but the direction and ground rules are shaped by TPTB//
That is your problem, you think that it all matters.. I see it as entertainment..
//I'm sure you could say that about Hitler ... but I wouldn't//
~~~~
Lucifer,
You obviously don't give a shit about other people ...
The legacy cost gap has been generally estimated at $1400 per vehicle. $100 just isn't going to cut it -- they will fail.
Look it up - I'm certain it is MORE than $1400/vehicle. Ironically that isn't that big of a problem IF they were selling a lot of cars & producing sufficient margin - they weren't and aren't.
The extra margin Toyota receives on comparable models is way over the legacy differential - Toyota makes cars people pay a premium for... GM, Chrysler, Ford not so much. Even if the legacy cost went away all that would do is allow Chrysler to price cars cheaper that also wouldn't sell. if price was the only factor Yugo would be number one.
I've had this conversation with automotive insiders - it is well know in the industry. Legacy cost is a hurdle - it wasn't the 'wall'. Bad design & poor execution was 'the wall'. BK will have a tough time scrubbing that stain out.
Oh and the biggest legacy cost? The bond holders - but they don't consider themselves legacy. That was BEFORE bankruptcy - they are just one more 'legacy' now like it or not.
The legacy cost gap has been generally estimated at $1400 per vehicle. $100 just isn't going to cut it -- they will fail.
i agree that employee reductions in pay and benefits agreed to so far are not sufficient in the long run
in the short run, with universal health care we can compete with the japanese, if we choose to build the "right" vehicles
but in the long run, the labor costs are so much lower in china and india, than in the usa or japans, that domestic workers will not be able to compete at wages much above the minimum
CAW members on Sunday ratified the agreement, 87% voting in favor. The deal is expected to save Chrysler about C$240 million (US$198 million) annually. The hourly labor cost of Chrysler's 8,000 unionized Canadian workers will be cut by about C$19 (US$16) an hour.
why does the denver airport have a mural of a gas masked nazi alien killing the peace dove surrounded by cowering people and dead babies under a chemtrail?
how would you like to be in this airport next week when everyone might be wearing a mask?
but in the long run, the labor costs are so much lower in china and india, than in the usa or japans, that domestic workers will not be able to compete at wages much above the minimum
I disagree - direct labor content for the OEMs is something like 7-10%. That is in NAFTA Zone.
70-80% is purchased parts & raw materials
20-30% is assembly plant... of that a third is direct labor [that is where your 7-10% comes from]
So even if you zero out union labor at the OEM it only knocks about 10% off the cost. Not a big effect.
There is direct labor in the parts & materials but a lot of that is already 'global'... and priced very competitively everywhere. I go into parts plants all the time and it isn't unusual to have workers there making $10-12/hr IN THE USA. Some of these are even union shops [they just don't have leverage to demand for more - in that respect China & India are having an effect].
In many situations the domestic parts plants are located in small rural settings where people won't starve if they are making $12/hr... it will be tough but they won't starve. I live in one of those places... there isn't a house within five blocks that would sell for more than $150K... many will go under $100K. Those wage levels make certain prices won't go up - whose gonna buy them?
The companies I know who are going to China are NOT doing it to ship parts or vehicles back to NAFTA Land... they are there to become integrated into the China builds for China market... it is now larger units produced than the US [happened recently].
Chryslers' position: Based on the Liquidation Analysis, the First Lien holders are expected to recover between 9% and 38% of their claims, on a net present value basis, [which] translates into a range of between $654 million and $2.6 billion. It is my professional opinion that given the market developments subsequent to this analysis, coupled with the limited success of other OEM effort to move individual car lines, the First Lien holders would likely recover at the low end of this range as part of any liquidation of the Company. The U.S. Treasury is only expected to recover between 3% and 6% of its claims.
If that's the case, then Obama's tough language toward the secured bondholders is encouraging. He is capable of playing the game when need be. It's so dismaying that thus far he hasn't shown the same toughness in negotiating with Wall Street.
My heart wants me to believe he's smart enough to know that the long term goal is moving the center of power back to DC from Wall Street and is maneuvering toward that goal. But my head tells me he's out of his depth.
I disagree - direct labor content for the OEMs is something like 7-10%. That is in NAFTA Zone.
but it is the indirect labor content cost thats must be added in, and i believe are larger than you project (ill research)
thats why so many made in ameirica cars are really just assembled in America cars...with so many of the constituent parts made outside the usa
i think you and i agree, us workers can compete, with additional give backs, as TJ has indicated, in the short run
but i continue to believe that in the long run, without tarriffs, the vast majority of cars for domestic market will be produced abroad until 2nd world wage rates rise very substantially
Dryfly, what is the transport cost per car (say, to Atlanta, from Detroit, Japan, Thailand)?
I have no idea - logistics is one of my weakest areas... and it is really 'murky'. My understanding is on a parts basis the 'allowed premium' is about 30%... Meaning if China/India/Thailand makes a part for 70 cents... I can price domestically at a dollar and the buyer here usually considers it 'a wash'... the logistics and all combined to bring from Asia contributes another 30 cents to make them 'equal'.
But that isn't all transport - it is also 'risk' and 'overhead' to support the importation. And guesses - lots of guesses.
I am trying to learn more & read a lot on the subject but my contacts inside a number of very large US companies tell me they aren't even sure of the real cost... their accountants calculate a number but no one knows if it is really accurate.
Turns out I'm chasing China work right now - machined parts - I'll be in conference tomorrow AM regarding these programs... we actually BEAT the China prices even though our labor is ~$15-18/hr and theirs is about like $1/hr. We can turn the set ups like lightening and they can't... the machines cost a ton here or there so the lost productivity from a slow set up on their end outweighs our higher labor cost... plus we frequently have one guy running 3-4 machines 'in phantom mode' once set up [they might have TWO workers per machine in China though the do work 'hard']... There is a lot more to this game than just labor rates. I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.
I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.
As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years, I've heard time and again that one of the major problems with Detroit was that the car companies were all run by bean counters.
heres an article from cnn which largely supports your position (read down to the part about toyota) ( but does give my argument a little support in the beginning
" "How you define an American car is one of the great conundrums of this world," said Dutch Mandel, the editor and associate publisher of AutoWeek.
Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.
Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand's V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.
On the other hand, Toyota's Camry is comprised 80 percent of parts made in the United States, and 56 percent of Toyota's vehicles sold in the U.S. also are made here, according to Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon.
The Toyota Sienna and Tundra also have 80 percent of their parts manufactured in the U.S.
"When you have manufacturers from around the world building cars in the U.S. with 85 percent domestic content -- engine, transmission, assembly -- is that an American car?" Mandel asked. Or, he asks, is it considered foreign because the profits go back to a foreign country?"
Notice how we are almost exactly where we where when TIMMAY gave his FEB speech in front of the Congress and we began huge sell-off. Funny these technicals...
Dryfly, OK, I have not been able to find solid numbers on crossing the world's largest ocean either, yet we know shipping either a car or a car's worth of parts cost fuel, insurance, and overhead.
I knew set-up time and worker ratios were important so thank you for putting some numbers on those items.
but it is the indirect labor content cost thats must be added in, and i believe are larger than you project (ill research)
There is a lot of indirect...
Of the 20-30% in assembly 2/3s approximately is 'indirect': capital & indirect [white collar] labor... the other 1/3 is the direct labor.
Same for the 'parts buy'... of that 70-80% there is a bunch of indirect there too... though probably not quite as much as at the assembly level. But this doesn't show up on the OEMs books.
Understand that the OEs have been pushing down 'responsibility' to their suppliers for quite some time... Ford, GM, Chrysler 'design' a concept [say cockpit instrumentation] it is then up to the supplier [say Delphi or TRW] to then detail it. Increasingly they too have been pushing 'detail design' down to the lower tiers [say a plastic part in Delphi's system they sell to GM]. Result is that overhead & indirect has been pushed to lower and lower tiers... and these are the guys that are REALLY hurting. Even if Chrysler is 'saved' there may be not supply chain 'expertise' left to support it's new 'concepts'.
When complex systems fail they fail completely. We might already be there w/ or w/out a BK settlement.
Hey, you think that the UAW will run the company into the ground? Well. probably, but it ain't gonna be the same UAW from a couple of years ago. Care to speculate on how ownership might "change" the union?
As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years, I've heard time and again that one of the major problems with Detroit was that the car companies were all run by bean counters.
So much negativity here. Look at the bright side - puts are cheaper than they've been in months and treasury bulls have been getting their collective ass kicked. Could be worse.
from the days before the UAW had any power to destroy car companies
"Associated Press (AP)
The Big Three automakers rolled through an unusually profitable summer, setting a third-quarter earnings record of $2.63 billion.
Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and Chrysler Chrys·ler , Walter Percy 1875-1940.
American automobile manufacturer who founded the Chrysler Corporation (1925). Corp. nearly doubled their net earnings from the same period of 1995, when they earned a total $1.35 billion. The previous record was $2.33 billion in 1994.
Ford was buoyed by a $686 million quarterly profit compared with $357 million in the same period of 1995. Earnings-per-share were 57 cents vs. 28 cents a year ago. Sales increased 8 percent to $34 billion, compared with $31.4 billion a year ago."
General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. reported record first-quarter profits Thursday as strong core North American auto sales offset weaker performances overseas.
GM earned a record $2.1 billion, or $3.04 a fully diluted share, in the first quarter, topping the Wall Street consensus estimate of $2.88 as polled by First Call Corp. The earnings were up 31 percent from the January-March period last year.
Dryfly: I have no idea - logistics is one of my weakest areas... and it is really 'murky'. My understanding is on a parts basis the 'allowed premium' is about 30%... Meaning if China/India/Thailand makes a part for 70 cents... I can price domestically at a dollar and the buyer here usually considers it 'a wash'... the logistics and all combined to bring from Asia contributes another 30 cents to make them 'equal'.
Mock Turtle: i believe that there is a level of complexity for any given system, beyond which the risk of break down rises from the arithmetic to the exponential
Meanwhile, Bernanke, Pelosi, etc. continue to add complexity ("reform"/"modernize").
it's just one sound. drummers perpetrating non stop cymbal beating to me is like a fist bashing down on the same piano keys over and over. the same note played the same way in so many songs is ad nauseating.
good songs are ruined by childish cymbal spankers. why can't they be reined in?
do drummers usually own the van?
if i was emperor i would have it stopped.
deleted.
of course that would make it cool, foiling my plan.
You could use Chryslers for a border fence, and cattle fences (barbed wire does not have enough embodied energy/labor for a stimulus program--barbed wire has no airbag or FM radio).
they painted themselves into a corner with the stress tests. it doesn't matter what tack they take. if they say everything is fine nobody believes them and people crap pants. if they say they are all dead everyone craps pants. if they say they are so so, analysts will pick apart the data and prove widespread insolvency leading to more crap pants.
might as well be honest with us since the most likely outcomes are approximately equivalent and there is value in trying to preserve the last smidgen of credibility.
"The sudden rise in World Bank relative bond yields is an unintended consequence of sales of taxpayer-backed debt by more than 50 companies, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Bank of America Corp. and JPMorgan Chase & Co. While these special offerings were designed to bring stability to the credit markets after $1.4 trillion in losses and writedowns in the past 28 months, no one realized the World Bank would be depreciated by such government policies. "
The Federal Reserve is postponing the release of stress tests on the biggest U.S. banks while executives debate preliminary findings with examiners, according to government and industry officials.
The results, originally scheduled for publication on May 4, now may not be revealed until toward the end of next week, said the people, who declined to be identified. A new release date may be announced as soon as today, they said.
I believe they have resigned to only trying to control short term perception at this point. All while they take what they can. I'm not sure there is any real effort to fix the system in the organizations that have any influence. I think even the kick the can down the road meme is being abandoned.
Our society is vastly different than it was during any comparable economic/financial panic/implosion. I'm wondering if the next year or three might be orders of magnitude worse than many are imaging. I have been preparing but increasingly feel ill-prepared.
"I'm wondering if the next year or three might be orders of magnitude worse than many are imaging. "
This is the site for squirrel recipes and firearm discussion. We debate when and in what form the US default on its debt will take, not whether it will happen.
This is the site for squirrel recipes and firearm discussion. We debate when and in what form the US default on its debt will take, not whether it will happen.
OMG! (smacks forehead) We forgot to discuss the scenario where the US pays back its debts at par and everything works out just fine.
".....Greenspan Backs Increase in Foreign Skilled Workers ......"
Where then would be the financial incentive to train up domestic unskilled workers to skilled? If we fill the market for skilled workers from the outside, it would be less likely to fix the issues we have with training and education.
Has BubbleBoy taken a look at unemployment lately?
Idling these plants, combined with GM's "summer vacation" should really do a number on the Chicago PMI. It is doubtful that the bankruptcy gets resolved before August.
While the UAW may get paid to sit home and grill burgers, think of all the rubber, crude oil, and metal products that won't be needed. Not to mention the auto parts suppliers.
(are you Rudy Giuliani?) obviously you are unfamiliar with modern art or even more broadly the
last 600 years of muralist painting... for the 20th century look to José Clemente Orozco or Diego Rivera...
perhaps we should remove the Final Judgment in the Sistine Chapel for starters, pretty tasteless and scary stuff indeed...
Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 5:55 am
Where then would be the financial incentive to train up domestic unskilled workers to skilled?
Greenspan wants to help the people who really matter, silly, the plutocrat class. If businesses get their margins up, it follows prosperity will be had by all. You'll get a service industry job or something.
I see a few dismissive references to Fiat. Are we unfamiliar with the company or just joking?
The company owns Lancia, Maserati, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari. There are commercial and military lines as well.
I'd guess the sophistication lies in the Fiat camp far more than with Chrysler. I know Alfa's a very strong brand in France - favored by wealthy/not flashy.
Chrysler is a side show. Nothing but a distraction to allow the looting by the banksters to continue.
Every time the fed or the government validates the false wealth created by the banksters, they destroy real savings. Our productive work/savings are being stolen and given to banksters and the rentier class.
If we actually let the free market work, GS, MS et al would be bankrupt. Of this there is no doubt.
American finance is a sham. It's all about the bonus.
Why isn't there a criminal investigation into why John Thain & Ken Lewis handed billions to Merril Lynch employees - an insolvent institution?
If new and honest management replaced the current bankster management, the truth would come out and wall street would immediately collapse. $14 trillion of spending and guarantees have been used so far to perpetuate and validate wall street fraud.
The majority are fools if they think they will benefit in the long run from the looting.
Why work if your work is stolen? As they devalue work, time becomes more valuable.
One afternoon an investment banker was riding in his limousine when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass. Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop and he got out to investigate.
He asked one man, "Why are you eating grass?"
"We don't have any money for food," the poor man replied. "We have to eat grass."
"Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I'll feed you," the banker said.
"But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there, under that tree."
"Bring them along," the banker replied.
Turning to the other poor man he stated, "You come with us, also."
The second man, in a pitiful voice, then said, "But sir, I also have a wife and SIX children with me!
"Bring them all, as well," the banker answered.
They all entered the car, which was no easy task, even for a car as large as the limousine was.
Once underway, one of the poor fellows turned to the banker and said, "Sir, you are too kind."
"Thank you for taking all of us with you."
There is a lot more to this game than just labor rates. I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.: Dryfly
Pretty expensive ticket, sort of like premium seats at Yankee Stadium, but you are right is would be an interesting show
CDSs are primarily bogus warehouse receipts backed by nothing in most cases. The banksters looted the real cash via year end bonuses and left worthless CDSs in the vault.
Bernanke's shenanigans are a cover up of years of looting.
BSR, my thoughts exactly. This is another bailout of a failed enterprise. It's like someone woke up one morning and asked "how can we make Chrysler worse?". Then it hit them - create a gse in a jv with an italian automaker, that way both product quality and firm management deteriorate even further!
Why are people upset at what auto workers make? The numbers you see are the cost of employment. The workers make less than that. In many companies the cost of employment is 1.5 to 2 times the worker's income. An engineer making $100K may cost the company 150 to 200K. Is it the idea that education entitles people to make more? Isn't that like the financial sector's bonus entitlement?
Another thing, in bankruptcy the "legacy cost" of building a car is going to disappear.
C'mon guys. Bankers know all about stamping machines, Kanban, 17 level bills of materials...etc.
Come to think of it, the bankers could probably use the accounting dept at an auto maker. Thin margins can make for very good accountants while business models based on exorbitant % fees can make for sloppy books.
As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me
Baseball and Wall Street are similar in many ways...
Both came to rely upon the home run as being it's salvation, and it didn't matter how many steroids or outright lies were used in the Elysian Fields, overflowing with fraud.
i spoke with a couple of admissions officers at some of the private schools. they have absolutely no idea what percentages of accepted students will show up on first day of classes. they've always allotted a certain percentage, but this fall could be astronomical. meanwhile, at many public schools, attendance is approaching record figures...
About 20 years ago, I met an older gent and our conversation eventually turned to baseball...
He had grown up in the Detroit area (born in 1923) and told me that Tiger Stadium let people in after the 6th inning for free, and he and his buddies saw more games from the seventh inning on, than probably anybody else in history.
We got to talking about the high prices of sports memorabilia, and he told me he had an autograph book with virtually every American League player's signature of the era, and I told him i'd really like to see it, so a week later he showed up with it.
I was blown away by the names, but more blown away in that it seemed like a decent percentage of baseball players were functional illiterates that could barely scrawl their names, many looking like a 6 year old's best effort.
if lehman or bear stearns hadnt pissed off the US of GS they could have been bailed out. I dont think AIG will have to worry. They launder money well for Goldman and JP
Above, it was said "it's all about the bonus... and the CDS in the hip pocket". In other words, some people have made bets that their own companies will fail. Have some made bets and then arranged to ruin their own companies to collect? (I'll assume yes.)
What would it look like if GS, etc., made bets against the survival of the U.S. as we know it? (Betting that the dollar will fail, for example, and a few other things.) Then, what would making that happen look like?
Isn't that what we're all looking at?
Someone asked the other day, something like (paraphrase) "why continue amassing bigger fortunes when you could lay back and enjoy life". I replied "to accumulate political power". What would that look like in the grandiose extreme, assuming they'd rather avoid nuclear war?
They've bet that America will fail, and they're arranging that result, with the cooperation of our ruling class.
That's what this all looks like to me.
In real life.. I am even more openly cynical about people. It is just that I can direct and express it in ways that makes me look wise and prescient rather than insulting and mean.
If you choose your approach and strategy carefully, even those who you mock will look up to you as wise and respectable.
You are full of crap and you know it. Internet bad man with a bad name and a bad attitude. OH NO watch out.
Bet you are a nice little kitten in real life.
I definitely agree with one of the posts where the GM bondholders & shareholders alike will rack in the money, taxpayers unfortunately will get "the Boot". I just wish all these mortgage companies didn't have to give away loan after loan for a disaster to strike, credit checks were definitely missed in this case; lots of defaults. On another note, someone mentioned something about oil! In my opinion there is enough oil to last us for 100's of years, some people are calling it a shortage?
TJ: "As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years..."
Ah yes, Brock Yates, Patrick Bedard, Warren Weith, those were the days. They provided some great lessons on driving and writing before I learned to drive or write. One really runs some risks trying to relate to people how exciting each "model year" used to be in the heyday of internal combustion. But life, like the road, has its turns, and now I write little and drive less.
Don't want to flog the donkey, but since this is an automotive thread (and dead), this nice retrospec of C&D as the Top Gear of its day is somewhat relevant:
As one looks across the carnage of the Chrysler bankruptcy it is hard not to see the fact that the current administration placed the UAW interests above those of the secured creditors. This sub rosa act is cause for concern for all businesses. Clifford S. Asness is not afraid to defend himself against attacks from the Obama administration. The outspoken managing partner of AQR Capital Management, a $20 billion hedge fund in Greenwich, Conn., has written a scathing letter striking back at President Obama for his harsh words blaming hedge funds for Chrysler’s bankruptcy. Take a look at the letter here Hedge Fund Manager Strikes Back at Obama - DealBook Blog - NYTimes.com
But with all Chrysler plants and operations now idled pending a final sale
First I had heard of this, so all Chrysler plants are idled?
edit: Hmm, we can't use the em tag anymore?
Sen Dick Durbin on the US Senate: Banks "frankly own the place".
Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) has been battling the banks the last few weeks in an effort to get 60 votes lined up for bankruptcy reform. He's losing.
On Monday night in an interview with a radio host back home, he came to a stark conclusion: the banks own the Senate.
"And the banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place," he said on WJJG 1530 AM's "Mornings with Ray Hanania." Progress Illinois picked up the quote.
Dick Durbin: Banks "Frankly Own The Place"
Oh where is Jas in his moment of vindication?
All Chrysler idled - that's good for another 40k or so on the unemployment number....
Judge Judy would get it done in 30 minutes, with two "cash call" commercials included.
They should try Thunderdome.
"Two men enter. One man leaves."
Banks "frankly own the place".
The battle lines are being drawn. The banks have shown Obama they can move the market where they want it to go. They stared him down in Detroit. Let's see if Obama has the courage or desire to stand his ground.
Jacobazzi, naturally pure, Jacobbazi.
Stay out super late tonight
picking apples, making pies
put a little something in our lemonade and take it with us
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
Tiptoe through our shiny city
with our diamond slippers on
do our gay ballet on ice
bluebirds on our shoulders
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
Turn the light out say goodnight
no thinking for a little while
lets not try to figure out everything at once
It’s hard to keep track of you falling through the sky
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
we’re half-awake in a fake empire
Dear Barry,
Flip ya for it. Loser gets Chrysler.
Regards,
Rob Dawg
Shadow, it' not particularly relevant to spending though, since those idled Chrysalis workers will be getting 80% of pay.
This is like a preview for GM. My prediction: GM bondholders win, taxpayers lose.
America is fine without a single TV produced in the country. Why are cars different? Detroit cocaine dealers notwithstanding.
Hmm, seems most will be
As a part of the restructuring, most manufacturing operations will be temporarily idled effective Monday, May 4, 2009. Normal production schedules will resume when the transaction is completed, which is anticipated within the next 30 to 60 days. Hourly employees will receive unemployment benefits, as well as supplemental pay that will amount to most of their base wages.
Keep in mind that during the period when facilities are idled, all company-sponsored healthcare and other insurance coverage will continue. All qualified employee pension and 401(k) funds are protected by federal law from Chrysler's creditors; these funds cannot be used by the company to meet any other obligations. Upon approval of the transaction, the new company is expected to continue relationships with most employees, dealers and suppliers.
From A letter from Bob Nardelli to Chrysler employees - USATODAY.com
well, dr (baron von) munch(hausen)....there is this argument that there are somehow skills in that industry which somehow spread themselves all over the place to add to wonderful new things to the economy at large.
They're my - GRAY - tory. Ya. That's it.
dr munch (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 4:03 am
This is like a preview for GM. My prediction: GM bondholders win, taxpayers lose.
America is fine without a single TV produced in the country. Why are cars different? Detroit cocaine dealers notwithstanding.
Emperor Obama arbitrarily decreed that we "have to" make cars, even if it ruins us.
The moai must be built.
A democrat from Illinois says something I agree with. Bizarro world, indeed.
How much longer before they start demolishing the oodles of unsold cars piling up all over the world?
Hey, who wants to buy a vehicle with a manufacture date of 3 May 2009?
seriously, aside from AIG, who else would have been stupid enough to be a net seller of Chrysler CDS? I'd imagine the CDS is just one big circle jerk, with the money being made on arbing the spreads.
Basel Too (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 4:11 am
seriously, aside from AIG, who else would have been stupid enough to be a net seller of Chrysler CDS? I'd imagine the CDS is just one big circle jerk, with the money being made on arbing the spreads.
Isn't that the nature of the entire CDS bubble?
Man those numbers in that report are amazing - This is like a dead whale washed up on the beach... bury it quick... And Fiat is going to save this? Excuse my I am squirting milk out of my nose laughing..... Fiat reminds me of a toddler with a towel pretending to be Superman.... dont jump off the roof kid - you really cant fly....
Not One Cent - damn right he should declare we "have to" make cars. If the economy was rationalized tomorrow, wages would go to a dollar an hour and/or we wouldn't make much of anything in the US. Millions upon millions upon millions of US jobs would vanish. Our trading partners are mercantilist through exchange rate manipulation and unfair trade practices.
You can't be a 'great' country with no manufacturing. People have to do something, national resources should be used, not idled entirely because some other country does it cheaper. About 99.99% of the US population is not going to be employed designing solar panels or working in biotech research, the country needs people working, doing things. It's that kind of thinking which has the US importing 70% of it's oil - because other countries make it cheaper. The US has been sucked dry of capital in the past 30 years - and in return we got trinkets like Ipods and cheap shoes from China. Time to save and produce locally, corrupt trade deals have failed the US people.
Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership?
This is just like the housing bubble. Chrysler has too much debt. Everything else is distraction. What I see here is creditors calculating how much blood they can drain. Some want as much blood as there is. Other want to draw off as much as possible while not killing the donor. Sad actually.
Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership?
Can it be any worse than existing management? The only employee owned corporation that I know is Publix, which runs a really tight ship.
CR,
Do you think there will be a point where the actions of these bankster types might create enough anger and suffering that it won't be "business as usual"?
We import 70% of our oil because we do too many things, unproductive things.
Who ran GM and Chrysler in the ground?
//Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership?//
Can it be any worse than existing management?
Although existing management is pretty damned bad, I'd still have to say "yes".
Yves @ Naked Capitalism
"But no, the Bernanke default position on Japan was that its central bankers didn't try hard enough. The Japanese, by contrast, believe their single biggest error was taking forever to take on and clean up the politically connected banking sector. Sound familiar?
So the latest of the "when in doubt, do more" syndrome is that the Fed is trying to get in front of an imminent commercial real estate bust by letting banks use the TALF for commercial real estate loans, thereby keeping credit cheap. The reason? That market is ready to go into free fall. Leon Black of Apollo Management, predicts a commercial real estate "back hole" that could deliver as much as $2 trillion in losses. to banks.
Ouch."
~~~~
Who ran GM and Chrysler in the ground?
I'd say that was a joint effort, just like running this country into the ground was a two-party effort.
"A note of appreciation from the rich
Let's be honest: you'll never win the lottery.
On the other hand, the chances are pretty good that you'll slave away at some miserable job the rest of your life. That's because you were in all likelihood born into the wrong social class. Let's face it — you're a member of the working caste. Sorry!
As a result, you don't have the education, upbringing, connections, manners, appearance, and good taste to ever become one of us. In fact, you'd probably need a book the size of the yellow pages to list all the unfair advantages we have over you. That's why we're so relieved to know that you still continue to believe all those silly fairy tales about "justice" and "equal opportunity" in America.
Of course, in a hierarchical social system like ours, there's never been much room at the top to begin with. Besides, it's already occupied by us — and we like it up here so much that we intend to keep it that way. But at least there's usually someone lower in the social hierarchy you can feel superior to and kick in the teeth once in a while. Even a lowly dishwasher can easily find some poor slob further down in the pecking order to sneer and spit at. So be thankful for migrant workers, prostitutes, and homeless street people.
Always remember that if everyone like you were economically secure and socially privileged like us, there would be no one left to fill all those boring, dangerous, low-paid jobs in our economy. And no one to fight our wars for us, or blindly follow orders in our totalitarian corporate institutions. And certainly no one to meekly go to their grave without having lived a full and creative life. So please, keep up the good work!
You also probably don't have the same greedy, compulsive drive to possess wealth, power, and prestige that we have. And even though you may sincerely want to change the way you live, you're also afraid of the very change you desire, thus keeping you and others like you in a nervous state of limbo. So you go through life mechanically playing your assigned social role, terrified what others would think should you ever dare to "break out of the mold."
Naturally, we try to play you off against each other whenever it suits our purposes: high-waged workers against low-waged, unionized against non-unionized, Black against White, male against female, American workers against Japanese against Mexican against.... We continually push your wages down by invoking "foreign competition," "the law of supply and demand," "national security," or "the bloated federal deficit." We throw you on the unemployed scrap heap if you step out of line or jeopardize our profits. And to give you an occasional break from the monotony of our daily economic blackmail, we allow you to participate in our stage-managed electoral shell games, better known to you ordinary folks as "elections." Happily, you haven't a clue as to what's really happening — instead, you blame "Aliens," "Tree-hugging Environmentalists," "Niggers," "Jews," Welfare Queens," and countless others for your troubled situation.
We're also very pleased that many of you still embrace the "work ethic," even though most jobs in our economy degrade the environment, undermine your physical and emotional health, and basically suck your one and only life right out of you. We obviously don't know much about work, but we're sure glad you do!
Of course, life could be different. Society could be intelligently organized to meet the real needs of the general population. You and others like you could collectively fight to free yourselves from our domination. But you don't know that. In fact, you can't even imagine that another way of life is possible. And that's probably the greatest, most significant achievement of our system — robbing you of your imagination, your creativity, your ability to think and act for yourself.
So we'd truly like to thank you from the bottom of our heartless hearts. Your loyal sacrifice makes possible our corrupt luxury; your work makes our system work. Thanks so much for "knowing your place" — without even knowing it! "
Fed Said to Be Close to Offering Five-Year TALF Loans for CMBS
Fed Said to Be Close to Offering Five-Year TALF Loans for CMBS - Bloomberg.com
By Scott Lanman and Sarah Mulholland
May 1 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve is close to offering investors five-year loans to buy commercial mortgage- backed securities, granting an industry request, a person familiar with the matter said.
The decision on extending the term of such loans under the Fed’s Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility isn’t yet final, the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said yesterday. The Wall Street Journal reported the state of the decision earlier yesterday. In December, the Fed lengthened the term of TALF loans to three years from one year.
BTW, anyone been following Treasuries lately?
Government Motors will be like Acorn, Americorps - a taxpayer subsidized campaign machine for the left with overpaid autoworkers also being subsidized by the taxpayers.... Sort of Amtrak, without the shiny trains... There will be an executive dining room though - also subsidized....
//Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership?//
Does anyone really believe the country can survive government ownership? That's the real question.
@ Michael 4/30/2009 - 9:25 pm
Amen brother !
"This is like a dead whale washed up on the beach... bury it quick...
YouTube - The Exploding Whale
Pakistan military pledges zero tolerance to Taliban....
Pakistan Army Pledges ‘Zero Tolerance’ for Taliban (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Interrogation wont be a problem....
Mike Lester free online comic strip library at comics.com
anyone been following Treasuries lately?
Yep. Wonder how much this is going impair the capitalization of insurance companies who are overweight long bonds....
The patriotism argument is a red herring because "saving" Chrysler kills Ford.
Michael,
Good point, but you do not seem to appreciate two things
1] Everything in the universe keeps on changing.
2] Humans (including the "rich" and "powerful") have no real control over the future.
Lou cipher....if that is the case, I sure hope you arent holding SRS. Gawd!
barfly - hahahaha great clip... I have spent a lot of time in Florence and I knew that story but never saw the clip before...
OT
Old article but still relevant.
The masters of the universe
Asia Times
I'm at least glad we got a comment about ACORN in to the thread.
"I'd say that was a joint effort"
Is that a CSC joke?
Bill to legalize drugs passed in Mexico!
Mexico Senate OKs bill to legalize drug possesion
| Reuters
3.12% for the 10Y, as Zero Hedge put it, Fed vomit-inducing.
@Lucifer 9:33 pm
LOL ... you'll have to do better than that crap ...
Fed better accelerate tbond purchases... infinite balance sheet, what me worry?
"I'm at least glad we got a comment about ACORN in to the thread."
Yeah !
Who do they think they are ?
Standing up for poor folks ... don't they know any better ?
mmckinl,
If you believe than human beings have any control over their future, you are dreaming..
The difference between me and you is that I can see it, you either cannot or choose to ignore it.
How many cases of dynamite--I mean tbonds--does the Fed have to use to disintegrate the whale carcass--I mean save the banks?
Whats the problem here? JK
Watch those CDSs a small group of people wanted to this thing go into the crapper ie BK
This is like a preview for GM. - dr munch
A prototype.
Lucifer,
Throughout the eons of time we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, this has been our destiny.
Now, at this point in time, we either recognize it and evolve, or die.
"If you believe than human beings have any control over their future, you are dreaming.."
If you think money and power don't shape the future you are naive ...
[Does anyone really believe that any car company can survive UAW ownership]
It's going to be fascinating to watch as Obama's workers' paradise of Soviet America devolves. Ford will have the UAW, a competitor, as its labor source, and negotiations should be fun to watch. 4 years is a long time for Ford to try and tough it out against the decimated cost structures at GM/Chrysler and fighting the unions at the same time. They won't be able to make it, as we strive to produce new Ladas. Obama will destroy Ford too.
dryfly
Might be cover for a full bailout of GM...
or could be T800 to T1000
Dr. Munch: This is like a preview for GM.
Dryfly: A prototype.
They have to test the aerodynamics in the credit stream.
A prototype.
More like "proof of concept".
Michael,
I disagree.. Humans find newer ways to screw themselves.
//Throughout the eons of time we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, this has been our destiny.//
Man those numbers in that report are amazing - This is like a dead whale washed up on the beach... bury it quick... And Fiat is going to save this? Excuse my I am squirting milk out of my nose laughing..... Fiat reminds me of a toddler with a towel pretending to be Superman.... dont jump off the roof kid - you really cant fly....
:: ::
BK will make those numbers much smaller - turning the whale into a wail pretty fast much to the consternation of the creditors. They will get nothing and like it no matter how this ends or who 'wins'. The resultant company will be easily digested by a Fiat or any other automobile mfgr.
SPG reports numbers tomorrow something to watch...
mmckinl,
Two points
1] You see the universe as deterministic, I do not.. While you can try to shape the future, you cannot be sure that you will succeed (regardless of how much power or money you have).
2] On the scale of the universe (or even the earth), humans -as a species are insignificant. People have issues accepting that idea, because humans tend to associate meaning in life with their self-perceived importance.
//If you think money and power don't shape the future you are naive.//
SPG reports numbers tomorrow something to watch...
My SPG puts pray for a miracle, but I will settle for -20%.
Who ran GM and Chrysler in the ground?
I'd say that was a joint effort, just like running this country into the ground was a two-party effort. - TJ
Exactly. Management gets the union they deserve, the one they create for themselves. Same applies for the union - they get the management they deserve, the one they forge for themselves.
What is the old proverb? Choose your enemies well, it is they you shall become. Applies here and in spades.
By the way when I was a factory rat we used to recruit the meanest nastiest grievance writing union shop stewards to become mgmt foreman - the very same skills when applied the other way worked wonders on their own. Shitty? Yes. Tactically efficient? Absolutely.
These guys all know how to play the game. They are all elbows and knees - both sides.
SS Trustees Report on the status of the OASDI and Medicare Part A trust funds is typically available first week of April. Still not available as of now. Rumors are that a decade has been cut off from the current OASDI estimate. Medicare Part A is beyond hope.
that might scare joe6pac.
THIS IS Not a normal recession
Normal recessions are due to a decline in a business sector. This is a decline in asset values which backhands all Americans at once. PCE will not bottom rather gyrate with government spending and stimulus. There will not be a real bottom for another year at least... IMO of course
1] You see the universe as deterministic, I do not.. While you can try to shape the future, you cannot be sure that you will succeed (regardless of how much power or money you have).
~ I said shape ... of course "the best laid plans" ... but the direction and ground rules are shaped by TPTB ...
~~~~
2] On the scale of the universe (or even the earth), humans -as a species are insignificant. People have issues accepting that idea, because humans tend to associate meaning in life with their self-perceived importance.
~ I'm sure you could say that about Hitler ... but I wouldn't ...
How does "Chrysler Moai" sound as the next car model name?
On average, they stand 13 feet high and weigh 14 tons, human heads-on-torsos carved in the male form from rough hardened volcanic ash. The islanders call them "moai," and they have puzzled ethnographers, archaeologists, and visitors to the island since the first European explorers arrived here in 1722. In their isolation, why did the early Easter Islanders undertake this colossal statue-building effort? Unfortunately, there is no written record (and the oral history is scant) to help tell the story of this remote land, its people, and the significance of the nearly 900 giant moai that punctuate Easter Island's barren landscape. NOVA Online | Secrets of Easter Island | Stone Giants
Basel Too,
Not according to the folks over at Angry Bear. They'll point out that even though the actual "cash" is drying up, those "special" Treasuries are earning all kinds of interest which'll more than make up the difference. Don't you just love it?
Basel Too (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 5:04 am
SS Trustees Report on the status of the OASDI and Medicare Part A trust funds is typically available first week of April. Still not available as of now. Rumors are that a decade has been cut off from the current OASDI estimate. Medicare Part A is beyond hope.
That is called the new transparency.
mmckinl,
What happens when the old control system fails. It would not be the first time in history..
//but the direction and ground rules are shaped by TPTB//
That is your problem, you think that it all matters.. I see it as entertainment..
//I'm sure you could say that about Hitler ... but I wouldn't//
"who ran Chrysler and GM into the ground?"
simple
the people who ran Chrysler and GM
you know
workers on the assembly line and especially those union shop stewards
those poor managers and directors on the board and executives on the top floor never had a chance
they were out smarted, out maneuvered and out gunned by those damned socialist worker types
i feel so bad for those poor defenseless corporate executive officers and the major stockholders...they were just lead like lambs to the slaughter...oh the horror oh the humanity
the workers are giving up 5 billion owed to them (health and retirement benefits) in exchange for 55 % equity
( and have agreed to 100 dollar reduction per vehicle produced in wages and benefits)
we have to hope they fail
because employees having half interest in a corporation and making it work would just be intollerable
The car industry is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.... Why are they ALL having such problems ??? OVER CAPACITY !!!
check the facts on chrysler here
Chrysler, UAW Amend Labor Pact to Cut Costs - WSJ.com
lol. Here are the nominal rates on the special issue.
Nominal Interest Rates on Special Issues
The interest rates aren't going to do much to offset the decline in revenue from 10%+ unemployment and negative GDP.
The new Fiat Pelosi...
http://toulousestreet.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/beadwagon2.jpg
BTW - if you didn't take time to read the link to Steven Jakubowski's site CR put up on page one I strongly encourage you to do it. Without something like this it is like going to a hockey game and not buying the program - you better know the game and the teams real well or it is going to just look like a lot of chaos.
I took a class called 'Managing For Profitability' when I was in pursuit of my mfg masters... it was originally called 'Managing the Firm in Crisis' but nobody signed up for that [looked bad when asking your boss for tuition reimbursement... "We aren't in CRISIS, why the hell take THAT course?"]. Once they changes the name people signed up in droves.
In it I had to write a paper on business bankruptcy & do a presentation... I wondered why and asked the prof... after all I'm no lawyer & don't want to be - lawyers do BK not mfg engineers. He was in his late 60s and had run a number of large mfg firms [big companies - fortune 500 firms]... He said "If you are in mfg long enough you'll run into bankruptcy - you might as well learn the basics now. It will effect your life more than you can ever imagine." Man am I glad he made us at least dip our toes in. I make no claim to understand a lot about the topic but at least I'm not completely clueless. This is going to be quite an event.
mt,
The legacy cost gap has been generally estimated at $1400 per vehicle. $100 just isn't going to cut it -- they will fail.
What happens when the old control system fails. It would not be the first time in history..
//but the direction and ground rules are shaped by TPTB//
That is your problem, you think that it all matters.. I see it as entertainment..
//I'm sure you could say that about Hitler ... but I wouldn't//
~~~~
Lucifer,
You obviously don't give a shit about other people ...
Which is just fine ... just so we know ...
mmckinl,
It does not matter.. looking at the human condition as entertainment is far more fun.
//You obviously don't give a shit about other people ...//
It does not matter.. looking at the human condition as entertainment is far more fun.
//You obviously don't give a shit about other people ...//
~~~~
Lucifer,
Completely understood ... Your posts will be interpreted with that in mind ...
The legacy cost gap has been generally estimated at $1400 per vehicle. $100 just isn't going to cut it -- they will fail.
Look it up - I'm certain it is MORE than $1400/vehicle. Ironically that isn't that big of a problem IF they were selling a lot of cars & producing sufficient margin - they weren't and aren't.
The extra margin Toyota receives on comparable models is way over the legacy differential - Toyota makes cars people pay a premium for... GM, Chrysler, Ford not so much. Even if the legacy cost went away all that would do is allow Chrysler to price cars cheaper that also wouldn't sell. if price was the only factor Yugo would be number one.
I've had this conversation with automotive insiders - it is well know in the industry. Legacy cost is a hurdle - it wasn't the 'wall'. Bad design & poor execution was 'the wall'. BK will have a tough time scrubbing that stain out.
Oh and the biggest legacy cost? The bond holders - but they don't consider themselves legacy. That was BEFORE bankruptcy - they are just one more 'legacy' now like it or not.
TJ and the Bear wrote
The legacy cost gap has been generally estimated at $1400 per vehicle. $100 just isn't going to cut it -- they will fail.
i agree that employee reductions in pay and benefits agreed to so far are not sufficient in the long run
in the short run, with universal health care we can compete with the japanese, if we choose to build the "right" vehicles
but in the long run, the labor costs are so much lower in china and india, than in the usa or japans, that domestic workers will not be able to compete at wages much above the minimum
CAW members on Sunday ratified the agreement, 87% voting in favor. The deal is expected to save Chrysler about C$240 million (US$198 million) annually. The hourly labor cost of Chrysler's 8,000 unionized Canadian workers will be cut by about C$19 (US$16) an hour.
OUCH, $16 an hour pay cut
Oh and the biggest legacy cost? The bond holders
Damnit. You beat me to it =)
Someone needs to calculate the finance premiums, especially in PE firms. I'd imagine it's pretty ugly.
why does the denver airport have a mural of a gas masked nazi alien killing the peace dove surrounded by cowering people and dead babies under a chemtrail?
how would you like to be in this airport next week when everyone might be wearing a mask?
talk about poor taste!
they should take these down immediately.
Flickr Photo Download: Scary airport art
Flickr Photo Download: Children of the World Dream of Peace
Mural 1: In Peace and Harmony with Nature (left) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Flickr Photo Download: Denver Airport
Flickr Photo Download: Children of the World Dream of Peace
Bad design & poor execution was 'the wall'. BK will have a tough time scrubbing that stain out.
Tough time? THAT's classic understatement.
michael
Amen brother.
Let me just recommended this video if you are interested in exploring your higher self.
Kymatica
Kymatica Internet Version
but in the long run, the labor costs are so much lower in china and india, than in the usa or japans, that domestic workers will not be able to compete at wages much above the minimum
I disagree - direct labor content for the OEMs is something like 7-10%. That is in NAFTA Zone.
70-80% is purchased parts & raw materials
20-30% is assembly plant... of that a third is direct labor [that is where your 7-10% comes from]
So even if you zero out union labor at the OEM it only knocks about 10% off the cost. Not a big effect.
There is direct labor in the parts & materials but a lot of that is already 'global'... and priced very competitively everywhere. I go into parts plants all the time and it isn't unusual to have workers there making $10-12/hr IN THE USA. Some of these are even union shops [they just don't have leverage to demand for more - in that respect China & India are having an effect].
In many situations the domestic parts plants are located in small rural settings where people won't starve if they are making $12/hr... it will be tough but they won't starve. I live in one of those places... there isn't a house within five blocks that would sell for more than $150K... many will go under $100K. Those wage levels make certain prices won't go up - whose gonna buy them?
The companies I know who are going to China are NOT doing it to ship parts or vehicles back to NAFTA Land... they are there to become integrated into the China builds for China market... it is now larger units produced than the US [happened recently].
"who ran Chrysler and GM into the ground?"
Globalization!
Dryfly, what is the transport cost per car (say, to NYC, from Detroit, Japan, Thailand, or some other example that makes better sense)?
Chryslers' position:
Based on the Liquidation Analysis, the First Lien holders are expected to recover between 9% and 38% of their claims, on a net present value basis, [which] translates into a range of between $654 million and $2.6 billion. It is my professional opinion that given the market developments subsequent to this analysis, coupled with the limited success of other OEM effort to move individual car lines, the First Lien holders would likely recover at the low end of this range as part of any liquidation of the Company. The U.S. Treasury is only expected to recover between 3% and 6% of its claims.
If that's the case, then Obama's tough language toward the secured bondholders is encouraging. He is capable of playing the game when need be. It's so dismaying that thus far he hasn't shown the same toughness in negotiating with Wall Street.
My heart wants me to believe he's smart enough to know that the long term goal is moving the center of power back to DC from Wall Street and is maneuvering toward that goal. But my head tells me he's out of his depth.
Dryfly wrote?
I disagree - direct labor content for the OEMs is something like 7-10%. That is in NAFTA Zone.
but it is the indirect labor content cost thats must be added in, and i believe are larger than you project (ill research)
thats why so many made in ameirica cars are really just assembled in America cars...with so many of the constituent parts made outside the usa
i think you and i agree, us workers can compete, with additional give backs, as TJ has indicated, in the short run
but i continue to believe that in the long run, without tarriffs, the vast majority of cars for domestic market will be produced abroad until 2nd world wage rates rise very substantially
Dryfly, what is the transport cost per car (say, to Atlanta, from Detroit, Japan, Thailand)?
I have no idea - logistics is one of my weakest areas... and it is really 'murky'. My understanding is on a parts basis the 'allowed premium' is about 30%... Meaning if China/India/Thailand makes a part for 70 cents... I can price domestically at a dollar and the buyer here usually considers it 'a wash'... the logistics and all combined to bring from Asia contributes another 30 cents to make them 'equal'.
But that isn't all transport - it is also 'risk' and 'overhead' to support the importation. And guesses - lots of guesses.
I am trying to learn more & read a lot on the subject but my contacts inside a number of very large US companies tell me they aren't even sure of the real cost... their accountants calculate a number but no one knows if it is really accurate.
Turns out I'm chasing China work right now - machined parts - I'll be in conference tomorrow AM regarding these programs... we actually BEAT the China prices even though our labor is ~$15-18/hr and theirs is about like $1/hr. We can turn the set ups like lightening and they can't... the machines cost a ton here or there so the lost productivity from a slow set up on their end outweighs our higher labor cost... plus we frequently have one guy running 3-4 machines 'in phantom mode' once set up [they might have TWO workers per machine in China though the do work 'hard']... There is a lot more to this game than just labor rates. I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.
I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.
As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years, I've heard time and again that one of the major problems with Detroit was that the car companies were all run by bean counters.
hey Dryfly
heres an article from cnn which largely supports your position (read down to the part about toyota) ( but does give my argument a little support in the beginning
" "How you define an American car is one of the great conundrums of this world," said Dutch Mandel, the editor and associate publisher of AutoWeek.
Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.
Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand's V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.
On the other hand, Toyota's Camry is comprised 80 percent of parts made in the United States, and 56 percent of Toyota's vehicles sold in the U.S. also are made here, according to Toyota spokeswoman Sona Iliffe-Moon.
The Toyota Sienna and Tundra also have 80 percent of their parts manufactured in the U.S.
"When you have manufacturers from around the world building cars in the U.S. with 85 percent domestic content -- engine, transmission, assembly -- is that an American car?" Mandel asked. Or, he asks, is it considered foreign because the profits go back to a foreign country?"
What makes a car American? - CNN.com
Notice how we are almost exactly where we where when TIMMAY gave his FEB speech in front of the Congress and we began huge sell-off. Funny these technicals...
Dryfly, OK, I have not been able to find solid numbers on crossing the world's largest ocean either, yet we know shipping either a car or a car's worth of parts cost fuel, insurance, and overhead.
I knew set-up time and worker ratios were important so thank you for putting some numbers on those items.
but it is the indirect labor content cost thats must be added in, and i believe are larger than you project (ill research)
There is a lot of indirect...
Of the 20-30% in assembly 2/3s approximately is 'indirect': capital & indirect [white collar] labor... the other 1/3 is the direct labor.
Same for the 'parts buy'... of that 70-80% there is a bunch of indirect there too... though probably not quite as much as at the assembly level. But this doesn't show up on the OEMs books.
Understand that the OEs have been pushing down 'responsibility' to their suppliers for quite some time... Ford, GM, Chrysler 'design' a concept [say cockpit instrumentation] it is then up to the supplier [say Delphi or TRW] to then detail it. Increasingly they too have been pushing 'detail design' down to the lower tiers [say a plastic part in Delphi's system they sell to GM]. Result is that overhead & indirect has been pushed to lower and lower tiers... and these are the guys that are REALLY hurting. Even if Chrysler is 'saved' there may be not supply chain 'expertise' left to support it's new 'concepts'.
When complex systems fail they fail completely. We might already be there w/ or w/out a BK settlement.
Hey, you think that the UAW will run the company into the ground? Well. probably, but it ain't gonna be the same UAW from a couple of years ago. Care to speculate on how ownership might "change" the union?
600,000 shadow inventory of foreclosed homes. Is this number accurate?
InvestorCentric: Banks Believed To Be Holding Around 600,000 Foreclosure Properties Off Market
As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years, I've heard time and again that one of the major problems with Detroit was that the car companies were all run by bean counters.
Yupper.
G'night all... got work tomorrow.
Care to speculate on how ownership might "change" the union?
Might as well write the epitaph for the UAW; they'll kill themselves faster than any management team could.
It does not matter.. looking at the human condition as entertainment is far more fun.
//You obviously don't give a shit about other people ...//
Lucifer,
You are full of crap and you know it. Internet bad man with a bad name and a bad attitude. OH NO watch out.
Bet you are a nice little kitten in real life.
"When complex systems fail they fail completely" from dryfly
i believe that there is a level of complexity for any given system, beyond which the risk of break down rises from the arithmetic to the exponential
@ bearly
Obama will destroy Ford too.
That's like saying a doctor who can't successfully transplant a heart into a 300 lb chainsmoker destroyed the patient.
So much negativity here. Look at the bright side - puts are cheaper than they've been in months and treasury bulls have been getting their collective ass kicked. Could be worse.
@ mmckinl and shift
'ignore user' is your friend.
here is a great article from 1996
from the days before the UAW had any power to destroy car companies
"Associated Press (AP)
The Big Three automakers rolled through an unusually profitable summer, setting a third-quarter earnings record of $2.63 billion.
Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and Chrysler Chrys·ler , Walter Percy 1875-1940.
American automobile manufacturer who founded the Chrysler Corporation (1925). Corp. nearly doubled their net earnings from the same period of 1995, when they earned a total $1.35 billion. The previous record was $2.33 billion in 1994.
Ford was buoyed by a $686 million quarterly profit compared with $357 million in the same period of 1995. Earnings-per-share were 57 cents vs. 28 cents a year ago. Sales increased 8 percent to $34 billion, compared with $31.4 billion a year ago."
PROFITS IN HIGH GEAR : FORD, CHRYSLER, GM REPORT RECORD SUMMER REVENUE. - Free Online Library
Does the art scare you, little boy? Just put your blinders on.
Full version. Save it in your favorites and watch it when you get the time.
KYMATICA
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6736722752013377089&hl=en
or more recently as of 1999
GM and Ford Report Record First-Quarter Profits
April 16, 1999
General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. reported record first-quarter profits Thursday as strong core North American auto sales offset weaker performances overseas.
GM earned a record $2.1 billion, or $3.04 a fully diluted share, in the first quarter, topping the Wall Street consensus estimate of $2.88 as polled by First Call Corp. The earnings were up 31 percent from the January-March period last year.
GM and Ford Report Record First-Quarter Profits - Los Angeles Times
that damn car company destroying union, the UAW, they only got strong enough to destroy GM during the past 8 years or so
Art?
I fear no Art.
Dryfly: I have no idea - logistics is one of my weakest areas... and it is really 'murky'. My understanding is on a parts basis the 'allowed premium' is about 30%... Meaning if China/India/Thailand makes a part for 70 cents... I can price domestically at a dollar and the buyer here usually considers it 'a wash'... the logistics and all combined to bring from Asia contributes another 30 cents to make them 'equal'.
$0.70 + $0.30 is 43% more.
that art freaks me out motherfucker
what's on your walls
.
.
.
.
Mark Harden's Artchive: GOYA, "The Black Paintings"
.
.
.
?
Mock Turtle: i believe that there is a level of complexity for any given system, beyond which the risk of break down rises from the arithmetic to the exponential
Meanwhile, Bernanke, Pelosi, etc. continue to add complexity ("reform"/"modernize").
How does "Chrysler Moai" sound as the next car model name?
After reading that the first thing that popped into my mind was -
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/tx/TXAMAcaddy1.jpg
Maybe we could build a newer version using Chrysler 300's .....
"the vast majority of cars for domestic market will be produced abroad until 2nd world wage rates rise very substantially "
What is more likely. ROW wages rising to USA levels, or the dollar going BOOM!
bubblisimo,
about drummers,
unrepentant cymbal slapping, why?
it's just one sound. drummers perpetrating non stop cymbal beating to me is like a fist bashing down on the same piano keys over and over. the same note played the same way in so many songs is ad nauseating.
good songs are ruined by childish cymbal spankers. why can't they be reined in?
do drummers usually own the van?
if i was emperor i would have it stopped.
deleted.
of course that would make it cool, foiling my plan.
Spatch: After reading that the first thing that popped into my mind was -
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/tx/TXAMAcaddy1.jpg
Maybe we could build a newer version using Chrysler 300's .....
You could use Chryslers for a border fence, and cattle fences (barbed wire does not have enough embodied energy/labor for a stimulus program--barbed wire has no airbag or FM radio).
Friends of Art.
Woohoo! Those union idiots are all going to have to get real jobs now!
Bwaaahhaa.
Stress test results delayed! Kick the can...
"Those union idiots are all going to have to get real jobs now! "
The bondholders will now be assembling cars? That should work.
@ greenlander
Having come from a town full of union idiots, I understand your sentiment.
However, the reality is we don't want these unskilled, overfinanced zombies hitting the ranks of the unemployed.
gene krupa buddy rich drum battle, those guys know how to drum. excellent faces they make.
they painted themselves into a corner with the stress tests. it doesn't matter what tack they take. if they say everything is fine nobody believes them and people crap pants. if they say they are all dead everyone craps pants. if they say they are so so, analysts will pick apart the data and prove widespread insolvency leading to more crap pants.
might as well be honest with us since the most likely outcomes are approximately equivalent and there is value in trying to preserve the last smidgen of credibility.
like that's going to happen.
@ otishertz
They probably spent a lot of time getting trashed and waking the neighbours in 'the village', but they sure cleaned up well for TV.
BBerg:
"The sudden rise in World Bank relative bond yields is an unintended consequence of sales of taxpayer-backed debt by more than 50 companies, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Bank of America Corp. and JPMorgan Chase & Co. While these special offerings were designed to bring stability to the credit markets after $1.4 trillion in losses and writedowns in the past 28 months, no one realized the World Bank would be depreciated by such government policies. "
Whack a mole rears ugly head.
The Federal Reserve is postponing the release of stress tests on the biggest U.S. banks while executives debate preliminary findings with examiners, according to government and industry officials.
The results, originally scheduled for publication on May 4, now may not be revealed until toward the end of next week, said the people, who declined to be identified. A new release date may be announced as soon as today, they said.
U.S. Bank Stress Test Results Delayed as Conclusions Debated
bberg getting more like yahoo and marketwatch all the time.
.
.
"debate preliminary findings."
funny
the findings are the findings. they are debating how to spin the findings,
unless they are debating which models to use to make the findings spinnable.
I believe they have resigned to only trying to control short term perception at this point. All while they take what they can. I'm not sure there is any real effort to fix the system in the organizations that have any influence. I think even the kick the can down the road meme is being abandoned.
Our society is vastly different than it was during any comparable economic/financial panic/implosion. I'm wondering if the next year or three might be orders of magnitude worse than many are imaging. I have been preparing but increasingly feel ill-prepared.
Google - public data
Kinda cool.
"I'm wondering if the next year or three might be orders of magnitude worse than many are imaging. "
This is the site for squirrel recipes and firearm discussion. We debate when and in what form the US default on its debt will take, not whether it will happen.
.....Greenspan Backs Increase in Foreign Skilled Workers ......
Greenspan Backs Increase in Foreign Skilled Workers - WSJ.com
.....he is so right and the yearly quota should be eliminated completely.......
This is the site for squirrel recipes and firearm discussion. We debate when and in what form the US default on its debt will take, not whether it will happen.
OMG! (smacks forehead) We forgot to discuss the scenario where the US pays back its debts at par and everything works out just fine.
You hit your head too hard again.
I'll field this one...
Because Greenspan never did any skilled work.
OMG! (smacks forehead) We forgot to discuss the scenario where the US pays back its debts at par and everything works out just fine.""""
all we need is either a time machine or a perpetual motion machine
".....Greenspan Backs Increase in Foreign Skilled Workers ......"
Where then would be the financial incentive to train up domestic unskilled workers to skilled? If we fill the market for skilled workers from the outside, it would be less likely to fix the issues we have with training and education.
Has BubbleBoy taken a look at unemployment lately?
green poops
bleh,
had a vid mash-up on YouTube using those very same lyrics from The National
YouTube - Fake Empire of the USA's "Bailout Nation"
even had the 3 stooges from Detroit's Big 3 in it (needs a re-edit since Wagoner and Nardelli are gone)
dCD
Nardelli is now a two time loser. Which company will pick him next to complete the trfecta of destroying once great companies?
Don't forget, he so pissed off the founders of Home Depot that they came out of retirement to drive him away. And now, Cerberus/Chrysler.
Yet noone is really talking much about this aspect of his less than stellar resume.
sock puppets! sock puppets! amen bromance!
Idling these plants, combined with GM's "summer vacation" should really do a number on the Chicago PMI. It is doubtful that the bankruptcy gets resolved before August.
While the UAW may get paid to sit home and grill burgers, think of all the rubber, crude oil, and metal products that won't be needed. Not to mention the auto parts suppliers.
Somebody stop me before I short oil ...
If they sit home and grill corn-fed beefburgers they'll be dead before they get their social security.
dear ---- - .. .... .
(are you Rudy Giuliani?) obviously you are unfamiliar with modern art or even more broadly the
last 600 years of muralist painting... for the 20th century look to José Clemente Orozco or Diego Rivera...
perhaps we should remove the Final Judgment in the Sistine Chapel for starters, pretty tasteless and scary stuff indeed...
Blackhalo (homepage, profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 5:55 am
Where then would be the financial incentive to train up domestic unskilled workers to skilled?
Greenspan wants to help the people who really matter, silly, the plutocrat class. If businesses get their margins up, it follows prosperity will be had by all. You'll get a service industry job or something.
I see a few dismissive references to Fiat. Are we unfamiliar with the company or just joking?
The company owns Lancia, Maserati, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari. There are commercial and military lines as well.
I'd guess the sophistication lies in the Fiat camp far more than with Chrysler. I know Alfa's a very strong brand in France - favored by wealthy/not flashy.
Chrysler is a side show. Nothing but a distraction to allow the looting by the banksters to continue.
Every time the fed or the government validates the false wealth created by the banksters, they destroy real savings. Our productive work/savings are being stolen and given to banksters and the rentier class.
If we actually let the free market work, GS, MS et al would be bankrupt. Of this there is no doubt.
American finance is a sham. It's all about the bonus.
Why isn't there a criminal investigation into why John Thain & Ken Lewis handed billions to Merril Lynch employees - an insolvent institution?
If new and honest management replaced the current bankster management, the truth would come out and wall street would immediately collapse. $14 trillion of spending and guarantees have been used so far to perpetuate and validate wall street fraud.
The majority are fools if they think they will benefit in the long run from the looting.
Why work if your work is stolen? As they devalue work, time becomes more valuable.
Investment Banker joke from Naked Capitalism:
One afternoon an investment banker was riding in his limousine when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass. Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop and he got out to investigate.
He asked one man, "Why are you eating grass?"
"We don't have any money for food," the poor man replied. "We have to eat grass."
"Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I'll feed you," the banker said.
"But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there, under that tree."
"Bring them along," the banker replied.
Turning to the other poor man he stated, "You come with us, also."
The second man, in a pitiful voice, then said, "But sir, I also have a wife and SIX children with me!
"Bring them all, as well," the banker answered.
They all entered the car, which was no easy task, even for a car as large as the limousine was.
Once underway, one of the poor fellows turned to the banker and said, "Sir, you are too kind."
"Thank you for taking all of us with you."
The banker replied, "Glad to do it.
"You'll really love my place.
The grass is almost a foot high."
So, real quick: Liquidation is not on the table?
So what dominoes are in line if Cerberus loses a head?
There is a lot more to this game than just labor rates. I can hardly wait to see those bankers try to run Chrysler - be worth the price of admission.: Dryfly
Pretty expensive ticket, sort of like premium seats at Yankee Stadium, but you are right is would be an interesting show
Yves seems to have found herself on a list of Obama bashing bloggers. Bashing diminishes her credibility in economic matters.
"American finance is a sham. It's all about the bonus. " - ...... and the hidden CDS in the back hip pocket
Premium seats at Yankee Stadium are not worth what everyone thought. They were discounted 50% last week.
People who refuse to criticize Obama diminish their credibility in economic matters (applies to all administrations).
.....the taxpayer has wasted billions on Chrysler already. Why is there an additional cost by the FedGov thru bankruptcy?
CDSs are primarily bogus warehouse receipts backed by nothing in most cases. The banksters looted the real cash via year end bonuses and left worthless CDSs in the vault.
Bernanke's shenanigans are a cover up of years of looting.
What a sham(e).
Anybody else going to the May Day parade in lower Manhattan?
Financial apparatchiks will be in the reviewing stand, as balloon payments float overhead...
BSR, my thoughts exactly. This is another bailout of a failed enterprise. It's like someone woke up one morning and asked "how can we make Chrysler worse?". Then it hit them - create a gse in a jv with an italian automaker, that way both product quality and firm management deteriorate even further!
Unreal.
reptillian (profile) wrote on Fri, 5/1/2009 - 8:22 am reply Ignore user
Yves seems to have found herself on a list of Obama bashing bloggers.
Oh no, branded politically unreliabile! I'm sure she's crushed. Didn't we have enough of this crap?
Bashing diminishes her credibility in economic matters.
Only if you care that Monica Goodling thinks you are a "good Bushie". I don't think Yves is looking for a job at the White House.
"Premium seats at Yankee Stadium are not worth what everyone thought. They were discounted 50% last week."
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
So the Yanks cut the price of premium seats in half..
@ what point do they cut the salaries of their premium players in half?
Arod tipping pitches is actually much worse than taking drugs in terms of making a mockery of baseball statistics.
"Everyone" means the people who still support Mayor Bloomberg after his stadium building spree.
He beat Specter to the Democratic tent, but I will bet it won't help him.
Why are people upset at what auto workers make? The numbers you see are the cost of employment. The workers make less than that. In many companies the cost of employment is 1.5 to 2 times the worker's income. An engineer making $100K may cost the company 150 to 200K. Is it the idea that education entitles people to make more? Isn't that like the financial sector's bonus entitlement?
Another thing, in bankruptcy the "legacy cost" of building a car is going to disappear.
C'mon guys. Bankers know all about stamping machines, Kanban, 17 level bills of materials...etc.
Come to think of it, the bankers could probably use the accounting dept at an auto maker. Thin margins can make for very good accountants while business models based on exorbitant % fees can make for sloppy books.
Repitillian: how are the legacy costs going to disappear? Are we going to toss a bunch of pensioneers out on their asses? I think not.
THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me
©1956 (renewed 1984), 1958 (renewed 1986) and 1970 TRO-Ludlow Music, Inc. (
BMI)
Banks know that costs could be anything but what matters is what you write in the ledger.
Baseball and Wall Street are similar in many ways...
Both came to rely upon the home run as being it's salvation, and it didn't matter how many steroids or outright lies were used in the Elysian Fields, overflowing with fraud.
Here is a huge friggin surprise: Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
A next major crisis is gonna be this fall in higher education.
Colleges Flunk Economics Test as Harvard Model Destroys Budgets - Bloomberg.com
i spoke with a couple of admissions officers at some of the private schools. they have absolutely no idea what percentages of accepted students will show up on first day of classes. they've always allotted a certain percentage, but this fall could be astronomical. meanwhile, at many public schools, attendance is approaching record figures...
its ok our big banks will be solvent soon. then we can breathe a sigh of relief!
Anybody notice a theme ?
"China Manufacturing Expands, Adding to Recovery Signs"
China Manufacturing Expands, Adding to Recovery Signs (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
"Japan’s Economy May Return to Growth as Output Climbs"
China Manufacturing Expands, Adding to Recovery Signs (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
"U.S. 10-Year Notes Head for 6th Weekly Loss as Economy Revive"
U.S. 10-Year Notes Head for 6th Weekly Loss as Economy Revives - Bloomberg.com
is this going to be another lehman/aig?
About 20 years ago, I met an older gent and our conversation eventually turned to baseball...
He had grown up in the Detroit area (born in 1923) and told me that Tiger Stadium let people in after the 6th inning for free, and he and his buddies saw more games from the seventh inning on, than probably anybody else in history.
We got to talking about the high prices of sports memorabilia, and he told me he had an autograph book with virtually every American League player's signature of the era, and I told him i'd really like to see it, so a week later he showed up with it.
I was blown away by the names, but more blown away in that it seemed like a decent percentage of baseball players were functional illiterates that could barely scrawl their names, many looking like a 6 year old's best effort.
Sorry, left one out
"U.K. Manufacturing Index Rises, Adding to Optimism "
U.K. Manufacturing Index Rises, Adding to Optimism (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
if lehman or bear stearns hadnt pissed off the US of GS they could have been bailed out. I dont think AIG will have to worry. They launder money well for Goldman and JP
Above, it was said "it's all about the bonus... and the CDS in the hip pocket". In other words, some people have made bets that their own companies will fail. Have some made bets and then arranged to ruin their own companies to collect? (I'll assume yes.)
What would it look like if GS, etc., made bets against the survival of the U.S. as we know it? (Betting that the dollar will fail, for example, and a few other things.) Then, what would making that happen look like?
Isn't that what we're all looking at?
Someone asked the other day, something like (paraphrase) "why continue amassing bigger fortunes when you could lay back and enjoy life". I replied "to accumulate political power". What would that look like in the grandiose extreme, assuming they'd rather avoid nuclear war?
They've bet that America will fail, and they're arranging that result, with the cooperation of our ruling class.
That's what this all looks like to me.
Newbie,
FT.com / Europe - May Day protests intensify in Europe
In real life.. I am even more openly cynical about people. It is just that I can direct and express it in ways that makes me look wise and prescient rather than insulting and mean.
If you choose your approach and strategy carefully, even those who you mock will look up to you as wise and respectable.
You are full of crap and you know it. Internet bad man with a bad name and a bad attitude. OH NO watch out.
Bet you are a nice little kitten in real life.
I definitely agree with one of the posts where the GM bondholders & shareholders alike will rack in the money, taxpayers unfortunately will get "the Boot". I just wish all these mortgage companies didn't have to give away loan after loan for a disaster to strike, credit checks were definitely missed in this case; lots of defaults. On another note, someone mentioned something about oil! In my opinion there is enough oil to last us for 100's of years, some people are calling it a shortage?
Best,
Michael
The “MAN” Experience
TJ: "As an avid Car & Driver reader for 30+ years..."
Ah yes, Brock Yates, Patrick Bedard, Warren Weith, those were the days. They provided some great lessons on driving and writing before I learned to drive or write. One really runs some risks trying to relate to people how exciting each "model year" used to be in the heyday of internal combustion. But life, like the road, has its turns, and now I write little and drive less.
Don't want to flog the donkey, but since this is an automotive thread (and dead), this nice retrospec of C&D as the Top Gear of its day is somewhat relevant:
Speed:Sport:Life » Avoidable Contact #22: The rise and sad fall of Car and Driver.
As one looks across the carnage of the Chrysler bankruptcy it is hard not to see the fact that the current administration placed the UAW interests above those of the secured creditors. This sub rosa act is cause for concern for all businesses. Clifford S. Asness is not afraid to defend himself against attacks from the Obama administration. The outspoken managing partner of AQR Capital Management, a $20 billion hedge fund in Greenwich, Conn., has written a scathing letter striking back at President Obama for his harsh words blaming hedge funds for Chrysler’s bankruptcy. Take a look at the letter here Hedge Fund Manager Strikes Back at Obama - DealBook Blog - NYTimes.com