[OT] So I am thinking about putting together a "fade the flu" trade. Long TSN + SFD + PST, short... uh... you know, those drugmakers. (Still working out the details.)
Why not have a buyout offer like Ford did? Get the least optimistic bondholders to sell.
Either that, or give them X cents on the dollar toward a new car. Was it Credit Suisse that got rid of a bunch of illiquid assets by using them to pay bonuses? Getting those cars moving sounds like a good idea to me.
Let me give a bulk version of this. For public sector pensions, we'll trade your bonds for a huge number of vehicles suitable for use at your local govt. The local govt will do a trade with the pension system, cash for cars. In the end, the local govt has cars at a discount, the pension system has cash to buy something else, and GM has gotten rid of both cars and liabilities.
Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs.
I like this structure:
"Daimler will pay $600 million into Chrysler’s pension plan over three years. It also will forgive loans that it made to Chrysler when it sold 80.1 percent of that automaker to the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management in 2007." Daimler Cedes Chrysler Stake And Donates to Pension Plan - NY Times
Can we have Cerberus to pay $3B in exchange for a right to walk away?
Oh, and the nutty marketer version of this. Give each member of pension systems which owned GM bonds the right to buy cars at cost or employee rates for 90 days. Car payments can be directly deducted from pension checks.
This begs the question why aren't zombie bank bondholders sharing the pain ?
1) the bondholders hold complete sway over Timmie, the Treasury, and Obama
2) the American taxpayers are already the bagholders
Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not?
How about, whatever their contracts legally require?
Of course, all bets are off in BK. But prior to that, they deserve whatever they legally negotiated. Which, unfortunately for GM (and by extension, the U.S. taxpayer) is quite a lot.
GM bond holders are generally pension funds, so they get the shaft. Agencies, Big banks, AIG, etc., are held by connected people, so they are all covered 100%. It is the great kleptocracy comrades.
Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs.
Also all the neighborhood squirrels and stray cats have disappeared.
UAW is big campaign contributor to the Dems and also big get out the vote for the Dems... Dont want to lose that...
It's Olson's thesis in action:
Once special interests achieve a certain level of political power they mercilessly plunder the rest of the economy until the nation is left a smoking hole in the ground.
my guess is that a lot more GM bonds are owned by the average Joe when compared with the Bonds issued by the financial institutions. So once again we get Government by the thieves for the the thieves.
Wonder how many of those financial institution bonds are owned by members of Congress and people in the administration starting with Geithner.
About 80% of the debt is owned by major institutional investors, mainly hedge funds or mutual funds that bought the GM debt at levels far more distressed than the price VanDeloo paid.
For example, European financial services giant Fortis greatly increased its holdings of GM convertible bonds last year, according to FactSet Research. So did Citigroup's Global Markets unit. Growth fund Longleaf Partners disclosed in a regulatory filing last year that it sold most of its GM stock in the third quarter of 2008 and invested the proceeds in GM bonds.
Southeastern Asset Management Inc. is an employee owned investment manager. The firm provides its services to pension and profit sharing plans; charitable organizations; individuals, including high net worth individuals; investment companies; pooled investment vehicles; corporations; state or municipal government entities; and partnerships. It manages separate client-focused equity portfolios and mutual funds for its clients. The firm invests in the public equity and debt markets across the globe. It primarily invests in value stocks of small
It will pay 600M into the pension fund and forgive the loans it made to Chrysler (Cerberus?) when it sold 80% of its stake. Daimler has already written off the loans, but will incur a 700M charge in the 2nd quarter.
"how can this complaint be laid at the feet of the UAW, and not the financial industry, where it is a much better fit?"
I think we can have more than one shoe to fit. UAW drove the big 3 to a competitive disadvantage, and the financial industry drove us to a boom and bust like no other. Probably some additional room in those shoes for the pandering congress and an apathetic public, letting them get away with it in exchange for a few pork laden bennies.
Seems like there should be some class action lawsuits over all this bailing and drowning... I have some stock in BAC that I bought last summer when I thought we were at the bottom - before it really dropped out - but now I hear that the BAC CEO was ordered to keep quiet about the defects in Merrill before the deal closed... seems like I have a legitimate complaint and deserve some remedy...
The real secret to investing well is diversification and asset allocation - but nothing will protect you in a total collapse... This is precisely the situation where you want to have no debt, especially on your home...
"The threat of being ignored causes one to "taste your words before you spit 'em out".... "
I would be inclined to save it for repeat stupidity. I surely do not miss the sigs, nor do I think I will miss some of the posters I find that particularly repetitive.
Why do workers get preferential treatment over other bond holders?
Let's see those cars build themselves.
If the guys who are getting 10 cents want to ditch the green eyeshades and roll up their sleeves instead of owning pier loans, I'm sure they'd be more than welcome.
"Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs."
Also all the neighborhood squirrels and stray cats have disappeared.
Go figure.
There's an isolated county in Arkansas (Calhoun, I think) that picked up the nickname Hogskin County . Because historically they had a lot of wild hogs there; and during the Depression, meat-hungry citizens from other counties would come down there to hunt and shoot hogs. They'd dress them on the spot and leave the skins behind.
When you start seeing "strange animal mutilations" on the tabloid TV again, chances are it won't be aliens. Or Chubacabra.
kcoop, ideally the ignored posts would still show up in some minimal fashion (e.g. headers only). I'm imagining something like posts on Digg with negative ratings. For example: The truth behind "cure for cancer" fundraisers
Anyway, thanks for your continued work, the forums are great!
"Seems like there should be some class action lawsuits over all this bailing and drowning"
How much is there to be made suing the destitute? Paulson has 500mil you could go after, but I think he got a, "get out of court free," card from the TARP.
I was thinking of that when I saw a dead doe on I-66 this morning. It will be like W. VA. All you will see is the gutpile. The rest will be dripping and cooling inside someones leased BMW trunk
Fairly priced? Unions have served a valuable purpose over time in getting workers fair and competitive wages and benefits and driving out the bulk of the abuses by BigCo. But after having achieved an impressive list of accomplishments, proceeded to demand more, to justify the union dues even when workers were getting a pretty fair shake.
Kind of like how MADD are taking things a little too far now, and getting policy made that works against their original interest.
Any lawyers in the house? Is the following statement even close to true?
bondholders ... have the same legal rights as the unions
My (limited) understanding of bankruptcy case law is that bondholders are way more likely to get wiped out than pension funds, but I'm not clear at all on the underlying statutes.
I don't know that auto labor is responsible for the automakers' problems. Management decides what to build. Management negotiates with labor. When something goes wrong in a business, it is usually due to a management problem.
The tellers at the bank didn't cause this financial meltdown.
Blackhalo- calling non-union labor "fairly priced" is condoning a race to the bottom in wages. Where does it end? And more importantly, who decides? The worker?
"Management negotiates with labor." It is kind of hard to negotiate with, "Give us more or we shut you down." Watch how fast Wal*Mart will shut down a unionized location. But the Big 3 got themselves in an inescapable bind and here we are.
I think most of the business oriented people are brainwashed by the meme that organized labor is to blame. Would you please take the blinders off and admit American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor, no how no way. Organize labor has the right to organize in order to have the power not to be taken too advantage of by management. Do you remember the movie F.I.S.T. The New York Times > Log In
WalMart would be better off paying its employees more. They wouldn't have such an issue with unionization. Right now, many WalMart employees depend on food stamps and have to use the emergency room for health care, which amounts to a huge taxpayer subsidy to WalMart and its customers.
Obama will side with the UAW. There will be no honest BK, if there is one at all and should be. Government motors will replace Pointiac with the Palosi and soon Buick with the Reid. The Hummer will come back as the O'bummer. All with central tailpipe technology. Government subsidized of course!
Ideally, the market, assuming BigCo does not collude with each other and get things like H1-B to distort it. Wages, like the Yuan "should" float based on supply and demand. Over time, again assuming a lack of abuse, a fair wage should be reached. Granted BigCo will not work to our best interest but smaller companies, if not disadvantaged would eat BigCo's lunch with the top talent, if BigCo does not pay a fair price.
I know that is a lot of assumptions and idealism, with regard to the abuses that we have seen in the past, but if Gov did it's job of fairly regulating, we would not be suffering such hard times. Unfortunately Gov rarely does it job or ends up distorting the market in unnatural ways and that is why we ended up with unions. But the pendulum, to me, swung a little to far in the unions direction and the unions abused their position a bit too much resulting in the demise of the Big 3. Again, just in my opinion.
Detroit doesn't have to compete with Chinese labor or any third world country. They already have car companies around the wold including China.They have to only compete in the North American market.
" Is "central tailpipe technology" where the exhaust fumes are re-injected into the car's ventilation system?
That's the latest in emission control technology, I guess"
No, Central tailpipe is an electric car where they use coal burning electricity smoke stack technology! The joke is on greenies as out of sight out of mind.
Blackhalo, those are a lot of idealistic assumptions based on the perfection of human nature. Labor must defend itself. Period. That will one day include the Chinese, and it is in our interest to support them in their efforts, however long it takes. Until then, we are at our bosses mercy.
Can unions work at all over a longer period of time when there is a very high level of unemployment? Probably only as long as the government welfare programs are sufficient to keep people from working for subsistence level compensation. Or as long as there is adequate enforcement of labor laws.
Ken, what about being able to see who is ignoring you? It might encourage certain people to leave if they notice the majority of online users are ignoring them, plus my online persona has a low self confidence.
OT: Austin downtown, trendy residential real estate is finally starting to cave in.
http://www.brazosplaceauction.com is auctioning "19 luxury condominiums". Downtown is a vibrant place so you would actually want to live there. Previously $199K to $1.5mil, bids starting at $80K. I wonder what starting bids are for the $1.5mil properties? I live centrally (not downtown) and the neighborhood only began to see price decreases starting early March. We had a bubble price sale in Nov. 2008.
Texas prices have been resilient until now. There are many more "luxury condominiums" coming to completion in the next 18 months. I wonder if the state accounted for decreased prices as much as they should have. The property tax was reduced on this house by ~10%, if that's the decrease they forecasted for the condos then they have a nice surprise coming. It was strange hearing/seeing stories from other states and have the opposite occurring here. Look out below?
Request to Chrysler is even non-sensical. They want secured creditors (not bondholders who are unsecured) to take 15 cents. Why they heck would they take that
when they know the collateral would fetch 60 cents ????? check my post here
Let's see...just like Gettlefinger's obstinance last December: He knew that if he stonewalled, Uncle Sam would cough up billions for GM, because 'WeJustCan'tAllowGMToFail' is the mantra.
So, the bondholders stonewall, knowing that the taxpayers will get soaked for billions, which will end up in their pockets.
After all, 'WeJustCan'tAllowGMToFail'!
The bondholders know it.
They have NO incentive to make a deal.
This is Moral Hazard operating in plain sight for all to see.
This is socialism, and this is just the beginning.
It seems obvious. Benevolent owners exist in the novels of Dickens and in a few real-life examples. But since the system implies that the rate of profit should be at least maintained, preferably increased, and the market will bear only so much increased price, the profit margin must be extracted from the cost of labor. You can decrease the cost of labor by increasing productivity through technological and organizational innovation, or you can reduce wages, benefits and salaries, and or increase hours applied to production. It looks like we are about to experience the last two strategies.
One alternative is the corporate, fascist state, but the workers inevitably are screwed in that one too, in real world practice. In socialism, the state confiscates profit through low wages and a low standard of living.
Don't bet against the bondholders. Remember how GMAC should have gone bankrupt last December, then the govt caved and threw more money at them when the tender offer (debt for equity) didn't meet the targets? Bill Gross laughed all the way to the bank.
My (limited) understanding of bankruptcy case law is that bondholders are way more likely to get wiped out than pension funds, but I'm not clear at all on the underlying statutes.
unsecured bondholders (and the underwater portions of secured creditors) are at the bottom of the credit totem pole. Employee benefit plans are a just a couple of notches above it; importantly, they're above many government obligations.
Of course, I've read some economics bloggers who maintain that the workers ought to be screwed, were born to be screwed or they wouldn't be workers, should be grateful not to be starving, and who the hell are they to object to being screwed?
These screw-the-worker people are their own worst enemy, because they obviously haven't figured out yet why they are alive.
I think what many who wish to blame management only as the problem should research what handcuffs the UAW has put on them. Job protection is deep. Including control of factory shut downs and still having to pay employees for nothing in return. Job banks. You can't increase productivity if it violates contracts set decades ago. UAW will soon mean You Ain't Working! Party is over the effort should be anew clean sheet of paper and start over.
I bought GM's "GRM" bonds after they slipped the other day when everyone went ga ga over the b.s. "news" that GM wasn't going to pay off these bonds. I used to hate the bondholders and now I'm one of them Obama doesn't have the cajones to let GM slip in the murky BK waters. This is not about what's right. This is about making money. I would actually prefer to see GM go bust, but 5 to 1 odds was too tempting to pass up.
-what's left is the workers owning the means of production, which, if I'm not totally out to lunch, is what is being suggested. At least in part. Don't tell me how scary that is. ( That last is not directed at you, Pavel, for whom I have the highest respect.)
I always had a problem with the word "sheeple." It has the elitist shine to me of overeducated, Volvo driving, latte swilling, my shit don't stink and Gawd loves me to much to make me ever be poor
"In the Facist state the workers pay actually drops due to all the levys the state takes out from it."
The German economy in the 30s was deeply in trouble, the triumph of left-wing national socialism was no where in sight, and Hitler was desperate to take the country into war as a solution.
"-what's left is the workers owning the means of production, which, if I'm not totally out to lunch, is what is being suggested. At least in part. Don't tell me how scary that is."
Bill Gross and PIMCO used to own a lot of GM bonds. They were at the first creditor committee meeting; saw the losers around the table with them and asked to be removed from the committee. PIMCO sold most of their GM bonds and are uninterested observers.
One alternative is the corporate, fascist state, but the workers inevitably are screwed in that one too, in real world practice. In socialism, the state confiscates profit through low wages and a low standard of living.
Yeah, it takes specific genetic programming to get socialism to work for ants, wasps and bees (called "haplodiploidy"). Not sure what chance we've got to get it to work for humans without that or maybe something special in the drinking water.
I disagree. War was the only reason for his existence in more levels than one. NSDAP taxed the worker in a lot of ways. WFW, for instance, was nothing but an organized shake down by the state of its populace. In many ways it was protection money. Then there was the dues, various pay outs to organizations that promoted the common good.
On the other hand concert tickets were cheap, as was vacations. Of course who got played was somewhat narrow.
Labor must defend itself by providing VALUE. Unless you can do a job for less or far more productively than a Chinese or Indian worker, US Auto will go the way of US Textiles or US TV. US Labor must have some level of training or specialization in automation or other factors to at least come close to the transport advantage to get those jobs back, or price parity will happen.
You can fight with your boss over wages an bennies all you want, but if US Labor does not provide real value, your boss will be out of business just like you.
Unions have distorted the market by quite a large margin, protecting some workers from the harsh truth that you have to work harder or cheaper than the Chinese or Indian workers. And US Labor has some HUGE advantages with education, location, work ethic, and infrastructure.
Protectionism does not help much as it puts the whole country at a competitive disadvantage putting people out of work who might have been able to actually buy your product. And in the global market if we go down the protectionist path, those who do not, will beat us with a lower cost of living while maintaining a competitive standard of living, due to the cheaper products available to them.
I don't ignore any commenter (know your enemies...) but I really appreciated the ability to rank some as excellent and cut right to their posts. It is extremely helpful at crunch time when there will be >10 posts/day and 500+ comments/post.
Thanks and everyone hit that upper left button now!
"That last is not directed at you, Pavel, for whom I have the highest respect.)"
Bless you. And I have the same reaction to worker ownership. It may or may not be scary, but it doesn't work. Large enterprises need to be managed by specialists. I haven't the least objection to private ownership, moderated by, well, morality and social solidarity. And that's pie-in-the-sky, isn't it? So far. My Catholic friends believe in the Church's social teachings, and in Distributivism, that is, everything on the smallest scale possible. Small is beautiful. A size humans can live in and not be overwhelmed and alienated. I don't see it anywhere - perhaps in some small developing world co-ooperatives. I don't know. Not around here.
OT and @ Nova: Because of its proximity to the German immigrant community of the Texas Hill country, Austin used to (early 1970's and prior) have some excellent "German influenced" restaurants. My favorite back then was German influenced chicken fried steak. That German influence on the crusine might be what you should look for in Austin if it hasn't been "Yuppified" away over the last three decades.
The marketplace sets wages on it's own... The workers always think they are not getting enough, and management always thinks they are getting too much... But if any employer tries to underpay the going wage, they will not only get the worst of the labor but there will be huge turnover and the business will suffer... Then the government comes along and does things like setting a minimum wage or mandating benefits which distorts the natural market and the result is loss of jobs for those who cant produce enough to meet their cost to the employer... From experience I know that paying more money does not necessarily produce better results... I think those high paying finance jobs with huge bonuses are a complete fabrication...
I remember that from time in San Antonio and the bio of LBJ. There was probably German language newspapers into the 60's in some of the small towns. Thanks, I will do a search for German food. tonight...
"It's too bad the quality wasn't up to US standards."
The poor quality was, I think, actually inherent in the system.
There are a few counter-examples, but not many. Byelorus Tractor of Minsk made excellent machines inexpensively. A few US farmers actually bought them. Strong machines. But they couldn't get the business end together.
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The uneasy truce between the Pakistani government and Taliban militants in the Swat Valley appeared increasingly fragile on Monday as government forces attacked militants in a neighboring district for a second day, causing the main negotiator to break off talks.
Maulana Sufi Muhammad, the radical cleric who has been mediating peace talks between the government and the Taliban in Swat, halted negotiations on Monday to protest the military operation in the Lower Dir district west of Swat, his spokesman said.
Why not just sell it to the workers? We could loan them enough money on share price t(AIG spends that much on hookers and blow in a week).
No one would even notice.
Then, it is make or break situation, without those dumb white rich boys in management to screw things up.
Blackhalo - I have been here long enough to know your education exceeds mine by orders of magnitude, and there is no way I will be able to disambiguate your argument if favor of market forces. All I can say is I am in favor of labor, in all cases.
Does anyone recall Weirton Steel from the 1980's? I believe that wound up as employee owned -- but I can't remember much about the process by which it happened. I believe they eventually closed down, but I don't think it was from internal failures as much as external forces in U.S. and world trade policies. I could be wrong though.
Seems to me Weirton Steel was something of a success for a few years.
Blackhalo,
That's what fair bilateral trade agreements are for. I say bring back bilateral trade agreements, end NAFTA, GAT, and CAFTA and screw the crybabies who don't like it.
"Does anyone recall Weirton Steel from the 1980's? I believe that wound up as employee owned -- but I can't remember much about the process by which it happened. I believe they eventually closed down, but I don't think it was from internal failures as much as external forces in U.S. and world trade policies. I could be wrong though.
Seems to me Weirton Steel was something of a success for a few years."
We used to pass it on the West Virginia side on the way to Steubenville. It closed around 2000, no? External forces are part of the model.
WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- The U.S. Treasury Dept. estimated it will borrow $361 billion in marketable debt in the April-June quarter, $196 billion higher than it previously projected, according to a Treasury statement released Monday. With the current, 2009 fiscal year at midpoint, the federal government is running a budget deficit nearly $1 trillion.
As The Triumph of the Banking Oligarchs continues at huge taxpayer expense perhaps most Americans should look forward to being a much BIGGER version of Argentina or Mexico in the near future !
I believe that wound up as employee owned--
Rent The Take by Klien to see what employee owned (or taken) business have done in Argentina.
Quite enlightening, to inquiring minds--
The bondholders have a weaker call on the assets than the retirees. That said, the involvement of the UAW is a real problem here. Its role is murky by its playing of a dual role: advocate for the current workers, and manager of the retirement plans. I cannot see how this will not end badly, as these two groups have completely disparate interests. I predict the retired will end up on the short end of the stick. The UAW will squander the money in the retirement plan, and transfer the empty husk of obligations to the gov't. An independent board should have been appointed to manage the retirement money, not a group with such an obvious conflict of interest.
Things I learned today from the new guy who has the office next to me:
Only cops and citizens use holsters. The bad guys do not. If you are working undercover - never carry your weapon in a holster.
The shotgun is primo for drug busts in houses.
Someone carrying concealed will frequently touch the place where they have tucked the weapon.
9mm is not a good carry weapon. Go with a 10 or 357
In Iraq the laser target beam thing is invisible. On patrol your leader will light up someone and only the squad can see it. Because of the monocole. If on patrol, someone who more than 1 person thinks is a prob will get lit up by multiple members.
The M16 with the laser sight and properly sighted in is good for 300 yds no prob
It takes 3 men min to take just 1 person down.
If you think you are going to get hurt in a tussle with a civillian - fu#k them up. You want to go home.
45 autos and the old m14 carbines and such are making a comeback.
"I will be in Austin all next week. Any restaurant recommendations downtown?"
I would vote Iron Cactus, and Kerby Lane. Chuey's or Hula Hut are pretty good for Tex Mex. I've always liked Lambert's for BBQ. Amy's Ice Cream too, if you are in the Arboretum area, as local favorites that are fairly unique. If you are in over the weekend, you should hit 6th and catch some live music. I would recommend checking the Austin Chronicle to see who's playing and where.
I see your contemporaries working and I want to hug them or something. The old lady who works the register, who when I asked the waitress "Where is Edna" laughed and said "she has become prone to wandering off."
The old guy pushing the plastic dumpster on wheels who looks like he going to keel over at the mall. The man who served me at Starbucks who laughed about retirement and how his plans had melted away....
Look people, any system in which anyone has to work for basic survival will always work against you.. remember that a poor person working to survive will always be more motivated than you..
The "freedom lover" says you need to have private ownership of capital to be properly motivated. "Skin in the game..."
But the laborer is a piece of machinery who should work as hard as whatever 3rd world slaveholder will pay, and can not be trusted with ownership. Just give the owner your skin.
His experience? 3 years patrol and 3 undercover. Plus 1 year Iraq infantry.
The 9mm requires multiple shots to bring down someone who is cranked. Fed law enforcement supposedly has dumped the 9mm for that reason. Where he did patrol they did it for the same reason.
Does anything that GM bondholders say matter? This is a meaningless argument over a worthless company run by trolls and staffed my morons that makes piss poor crap.
The shotgun is primo for drug busts in houses.
Forget pistols- it is about shotguns and Ak's and SKS's. The easiest ammo to get on the planet.
But a 12 gage pump in close quarters---
Why not give people methamphetamine at a few cents/ pill? It would save us a lot of money currently wasted on useless cops.
PS- Read a little about how nazi's dealt with 'disturbances' in jewish ghettos and then compare it our war on drugs.. I have to admit that the nazi's has a better sense of style.
//The 9mm requires multiple shots to bring down someone who is cranked. Fed law enforcement supposedly has dumped the 9mm for that reason. Where he did patrol they did it for the same reason.//
"I have been here long enought to know your education exceeds mine by orders of magnitude, and there is no way I will be able to disambiguate your argument if favor of market forces. "
I really doubt that I am any more educated and I usually agree strongly with your postings. But sometimes, market forces work. And sometimes, to the benefit of labor, by providing greater value products at a lower price even if it is at the expense of some jobs.
"All I can say is I am in favor of labor, in all cases."
I will definitely take the side of labor in most cases, but I feel there are natural limits that if not respected, will sink the whole business, industry, or country it taken to extremes. It is just my opinion that in the isolation provided by a near monopoly on labor and powerful representation in government, the UAW took things a little bit too far, and bear some responsibility in the demise of GM.
@ Lucifer: "An eye for the main chance." ... THAT and hard work will allow one to succeed -- if success ,is measured by much higher income. I look around me at the other proles of my workers collective and see none who have an eye for that "main chance" as some author (probably English) once put it... But Finance MBAs certainly have had that knack up till now.
My worker's soviet is having a meeting tonight to discuss whether the wife (diabetic) applies for disability under Social Security. Plenty of motivation in my work brigade. But this Stakhanov is having trouble keeping up.
"Does anything that GM bondholders say matter? This is a meaningless argument over a worthless company run by trolls and staffed my morons that makes piss poor crap."
Education does not matter if the person is immersed in dogma. The smartest minds once used to say that heavier than air flight was possible... how did that work out.
"The "freedom lover" says you need to have private ownership of capital to be properly motivated. "Skin in the game..."
But the laborer is a piece of machinery who should work as hard as whatever 3rd world slaveholder will pay, and can not be trusted with ownership. Just give the owner your skin."
Using people as machines is obviously wrong, odious, immoral. That doesn't mean that private property is wrong, odious and immoral. It can be when in a society everyone is for himself alone.
In the socialist society I saw, they used to say: When things belong to everyone, they belong to no one.
If there is no middle way in which people can remain human to one another, then we really are at a dead end.
Of course there's a middle way. Virtually every law firm is employee-owned. If you retire, you have no more ownership rights. The major sports leagues have revenue sharing. Workers must have skin in the game to care about long-run success.
Blackhalo, I totally respect your opinion, believe me, but if management hadn't allowed non-union labor to infiltrate the marketplace for its own purposes, we wouldn't be where we are today. How labor can be blamed for this development is beyond me. How much "influence" does management, versus labor, have with government, anyway?
Of the remaining 1/2, 9mm historically has 50% stopping power. But over the past fifteen-twenty years, ammunition choice has become much more important and last time I checked, 9mm is capable of 70+% rate.
So simply having a 9mm and good ammo in hand is a 85% win scenario.
Marshall & Sanow have compiled empirical results on handgun shootings for quite some time, at least the past twenty years. I know of no one with a comparable study.
"if management hadn't allowed non-union labor to infiltrate the marketplace for its own purposes, we wouldn't be where we are today."
Union labor had to make concessions, one way or another, as they had priced themselves out of the market. If management had not "allowed" non-union labor, they would be out business anyway as non-union automakers would beat them on value/price.
Ever see Tucker? Union funded politicos helped run that competitor into oblivion as it was a threat to the status quo. As a result, many years later, foreign labor was able to produce a superior product due to the fact the domestic labor had eliminated all domestic competition and fallen in to complacency.
Particularly bad were the 80's when US Auto was engineering 3 year obsolescence. And they really did fall apart in 3 years. This allowed foreign auto to kick US Auto on the low end by Japan and the high by Europe and now largely by everyone. It was like introducing cats to Australia, or Small Pox to the Americas.
"what part did the UAW play in "planned obsolescence"? "
UAW and their representatives assisted in eliminating all domestic, non-UAW competitors. UAW and their representatives enacted legislation that severely restricted the possibility of new domestic auto start-ups. Planned obsolescence would not work if there was a viable domestic competitor who was not in on the deal.
Merck touts positive hep C data
April 24, 2009 — 11:10am ET | By John Carroll
There's been plenty of new data on hepatitis C drugs coming from the 44th Annual European Association for the Study of the Liver meeting in Copenhagen, Denmark.
Yesterday, Schering-Plough came up with intriguing positive data on boceprevir. Today, Merck is releasing data on MK-7009. In a Phase IIa trial, 69 percent to 82 percent of patients taking standard therapies combined with the experimental therapy saw their viral loads drop to undetectable levels in 28 days. Ninety-five treatment naive chronic HCV patients were randomized across five treatment arms with regimens of MK-7009 300 mg or 600 mg twice daily, MK-7009 600 mg or 800 mg once daily, or placebo, for 28 days.
NEW YORK, April 25 (Reuters) - Vertex Pharmaceuticals Inc's experimental hepatitis C drug, telaprevir, proved significantly better than standard therapy in knocking out the virus in patients for whom prior treatments failed, according to results of a clinical study.The notoriously difficult to treat patients fared far better when telaprevir was added to their therapy for both those who received the Vertex drug for 12 weeks and those in a 24-week treatment group, researchers said.
The sustained viral response (SVR) rate was 51 percent in the 12-week telaprevir group and 52 percent on the 24-week telaprevir regimen, compared with a 14 percent SVR rate in patients who received a 48-week course of ribavirin and pegylated-interferon -- the current standard of care.
April 27, 2009 (Copenhagen, Denmark) — Boceprevir, an investigational oral hepatitis C virus (HCV) protease inhibitor, in combination with peginterferon alfa-2b and ribavirin, significantly increases the sustained viral response (SVR) rate in patients with HCV genotype 1, according to a study presented here at the European Association for the Study of the Liver 44th Annual Meeting.
The findings are the final results of the phase 2 HCV Serine Protease Inhibitor Therapy (SPRINT)-1 study, which evaluated boceprevir (800 mg 3 times a day) in 3 treatment regimens: 4 weeks of peginterferon alfa-2b (1.5 μg/kg once weekly) plus ribavirin (800 to 1400 mg daily by weight) followed by the addition of boceprevir (800 mg 3 times a day) for either 24 weeks or 44 weeks; boceprevir in combination with peginterferon alfa-2b plus ribavirin at the doses above for either 28 or 48 weeks (triple-combination therapy); and peginterferon alfa-2b plus low-dose ribavirin (400 to1000 mg/day) and boceprevir for 48 weeks.
Blackhalo, sir, how effective were they (the UAW) in eliminating all "non-domestic" competitors? How did foreign competitors gain marketshare?. How were Toyata and the others able to construct plants on American soil? Surely not through the aquiescense of the UAW.Your argument concerning " domestic" competitors may have some validity, but even if they were not successful in this endeavor, how would this have averted our present predicament? I am not claiming the UAW is pristine, or blameless, but I fail to see how their supposed power in Congress is responsible for anything less than their present demise.
Broward,the Marshall and Sanow study is seriously Flawed as is Fackler's writing.Ayoob's opinions,while based on anecdotal evidence are based on a LOT of anecdotal evidence.IMO the best and clearest writing on pistol caliber effectiveness is By Grant Cunningham and you can find his treatise at his Blog.If you have a choice,take a 16 inch naval rifle to a gunfight...
I would argue that Kerner was on the UAW payroll. Also, I would be of the view that very few in Michigan, Ohio or Chicago politicos get nominated to the (D) ticket without UAW support, and that these representatives, over time have worked more towards the UAW and Big3 interests than the public's.
"How did foreign competitors gain marketshare?" Well, despite very high tariffs on imported products, the imported goods were of such comparatively high quality, that it was there for the taking. At the time, domestic autos were of such poor quality no one outside of the US would touch them.
"How were Toyota and the others able to construct plants on American soil?"
Because right to work states that wanted jobs, invited them, and offered radical tax incentives to move production. Also, it allowed them to circumvent the high tariffs of the time. The UAW was none to fond of the big 3 moving any jobs to a right to work state. So those states went and found someone who would.
This is the least surprising story in a day of not-surprising stories.
If your company is bailed out by the government all stock and bondholders should be wiped.
Anything else is gross injustice.
"The current offer is neither reasonable nor adequate."
I wonder, what would the offer have to look like to be reasonable, but not adequate? How about adequate, but not reasonable?
OK, to be fair maybe the bondholders should be compensated the liquidation value of the company...
But let's call that being "wiped" for the bondholders.
[OT] So I am thinking about putting together a "fade the flu" trade. Long TSN + SFD + PST, short... uh... you know, those drugmakers. (Still working out the details.)
ac --
What is fair treatment for the UAW? I believe that is the bondholders' beef.
That's better. Thus a BK.
Shareholders (almost always) get wiped. Secured creditors get what's left.
Why does this have to be so complicated?
Oh, yeah, politics.
Why not have a buyout offer like Ford did? Get the least optimistic bondholders to sell.
Either that, or give them X cents on the dollar toward a new car. Was it Credit Suisse that got rid of a bunch of illiquid assets by using them to pay bonuses? Getting those cars moving sounds like a good idea to me.
Let me give a bulk version of this. For public sector pensions, we'll trade your bonds for a huge number of vehicles suitable for use at your local govt. The local govt will do a trade with the pension system, cash for cars. In the end, the local govt has cars at a discount, the pension system has cash to buy something else, and GM has gotten rid of both cars and liabilities.
Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs.
I like this structure:
"Daimler will pay $600 million into Chrysler’s pension plan over three years. It also will forgive loans that it made to Chrysler when it sold 80.1 percent of that automaker to the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management in 2007."
Daimler Cedes Chrysler Stake And Donates to Pension Plan - NY Times
Can we have Cerberus to pay $3B in exchange for a right to walk away?
No surprise. If the bondholders did take shares, they'd all sell them immediately, dontcha think?
To the extent that the UAW is a secured creditor, they should participate with the bondholders.
Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not?
Oh, and the nutty marketer version of this. Give each member of pension systems which owned GM bonds the right to buy cars at cost or employee rates for 90 days. Car payments can be directly deducted from pension checks.
Sweeten the deal: Offer the creditors a voucher for a new car.
This begs the question why aren't zombie bank bondholders sharing the pain ?
1) the bondholders hold complete sway over Timmie, the Treasury, and Obama
2) the American taxpayers are already the bagholders
sm_landlord --
Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not?
How about, whatever their contracts legally require?
Of course, all bets are off in BK. But prior to that, they deserve whatever they legally negotiated. Which, unfortunately for GM (and by extension, the U.S. taxpayer) is quite a lot.
How about offer UAW retirees healthcare system where healthcare workers have the same work rules as the UAW? That could save some money:)
Scientific American has re-released this earlier article in response to the new flu appearing.
Hunting the 1918 killer flu...mutation is the thing to consider:
Capturing a Killer Flu Virus: Scientific American
To the extent that the UAW is a secured creditor, they should participate with the bondholders.
Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not?
Sounds like the right answer to me.
UAW is big campaign contributor to the Dems and also big get out the vote for the Dems... Dont want to lose that...
GM bond holders are generally pension funds, so they get the shaft. Agencies, Big banks, AIG, etc., are held by connected people, so they are all covered 100%. It is the great kleptocracy comrades.
Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs.
Also all the neighborhood squirrels and stray cats have disappeared.
Go figure.
"Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not? "
UAW is big campaign contributor to the Dems and also big get out the vote for the Dems... Dont want to lose that...
It's Olson's thesis in action:
Once special interests achieve a certain level of political power they mercilessly plunder the rest of the economy until the nation is left a smoking hole in the ground.
I bet the autoworkers are really enamored of Hopey. Save the banking cartel, crap on the working man. Great system.
my guess is that a lot more GM bonds are owned by the average Joe when compared with the Bonds issued by the financial institutions. So once again we get Government by the thieves for the the thieves.
Wonder how many of those financial institution bonds are owned by members of Congress and people in the administration starting with Geithner.
"Democracy will only prevail until the electorate discovers it can vote itself largess from the public treasury..."
Who owns it?
About 80% of the debt is owned by major institutional investors, mainly hedge funds or mutual funds that bought the GM debt at levels far more distressed than the price VanDeloo paid.
For example, European financial services giant Fortis greatly increased its holdings of GM convertible bonds last year, according to FactSet Research. So did Citigroup's Global Markets unit. Growth fund Longleaf Partners disclosed in a regulatory filing last year that it sold most of its GM stock in the third quarter of 2008 and invested the proceeds in GM bonds.
The other 20% is held by "mom and pop" investors...
Longleaf is really SAM.
Southeastern Asset Management Inc. is an employee owned investment manager. The firm provides its services to pension and profit sharing plans; charitable organizations; individuals, including high net worth individuals; investment companies; pooled investment vehicles; corporations; state or municipal government entities; and partnerships. It manages separate client-focused equity portfolios and mutual funds for its clients. The firm invests in the public equity and debt markets across the globe. It primarily invests in value stocks of small
Daimler Will Pay 600M to Unload Remaining 20% Chrysler Stake
It will pay 600M into the pension fund and forgive the loans it made to Chrysler (Cerberus?) when it sold 80% of its stake. Daimler has already written off the loans, but will incur a 700M charge in the 2nd quarter.
RE: GM Bondholders Respond to Exchange Offer
Why do people insist on trying to reclassify bagholders?
"OK, to be fair maybe the bondholders should be compensated the liquidation value of the company...
But let's call that being "wiped" for the bondholders."
I do not think there will be much left after the pensions get done.
Good thing the bondholders got coverage from AIG. Which means either, we get to the great unwinding, or USG and you and me get left holding the bag.
-how can this complaint be laid at the feet of the UAW, and not the financial industry, where it is a much better fit?
If Longleaf was buying GM for the return for pension funds and charitable orgs - they probably have other outstanding investments...
Wow, am I on everyones "ignore?" What if we all ignoring different people? Will we have this really lagged weird discussion?
Don't worry, Hopey isn't a global elitist pig man. [/sarcasm]
You aren't on mine.
I was concerned about this with CR Companion, but it didn't seem to cause any problem. Of course, there were fewer people using that.
If it does, we can revisit it. It's easy to turn off again.
Has anyone seen nova lately?
The threat of being ignored causes one to "taste your words before you spit 'em out"....
Tupuli...Thanks, I can take it. I have the hide of a penguin
"how can this complaint be laid at the feet of the UAW, and not the financial industry, where it is a much better fit?"
I think we can have more than one shoe to fit. UAW drove the big 3 to a competitive disadvantage, and the financial industry drove us to a boom and bust like no other. Probably some additional room in those shoes for the pandering congress and an apathetic public, letting them get away with it in exchange for a few pork laden bennies.
kcoop, I hope you ride your work here to fame, fortune and a portfolio that has 0 automaker bonds.
Seems like there should be some class action lawsuits over all this bailing and drowning... I have some stock in BAC that I bought last summer when I thought we were at the bottom - before it really dropped out - but now I hear that the BAC CEO was ordered to keep quiet about the defects in Merrill before the deal closed... seems like I have a legitimate complaint and deserve some remedy...
The real secret to investing well is diversification and asset allocation - but nothing will protect you in a total collapse... This is precisely the situation where you want to have no debt, especially on your home...
"The threat of being ignored causes one to "taste your words before you spit 'em out".... "
I would be inclined to save it for repeat stupidity. I surely do not miss the sigs, nor do I think I will miss some of the posters I find that particularly repetitive.
Thank-you, Ken.
"UAW drove the big 3 to a competitive disadvantage..."
-what do you call non-union labor?
Why do workers get preferential treatment over other bond holders?
Let's see those cars build themselves.
If the guys who are getting 10 cents want to ditch the green eyeshades and roll up their sleeves instead of owning pier loans, I'm sure they'd be more than welcome.
Don't worry Nova, I won't put you on my ignore list, you complete me.
"Copper down 10% in a few weeks, nat gas down 20% in a few weeks, US steel in the crapper. I guess the second half recovery doesn't need metals, energy, or jobs."
Also all the neighborhood squirrels and stray cats have disappeared.
Go figure.
There's an isolated county in Arkansas (Calhoun, I think) that picked up the nickname Hogskin County . Because historically they had a lot of wild hogs there; and during the Depression, meat-hungry citizens from other counties would come down there to hunt and shoot hogs. They'd dress them on the spot and leave the skins behind.
When you start seeing "strange animal mutilations" on the tabloid TV again, chances are it won't be aliens. Or Chubacabra.
kcoop, ideally the ignored posts would still show up in some minimal fashion (e.g. headers only). I'm imagining something like posts on Digg with negative ratings. For example: The truth behind "cure for cancer" fundraisers
Anyway, thanks for your continued work, the forums are great!
"Will we have this really lagged weird discussion?"
Yes.
But even more dangerous....
what if you click "ignore" when you meant to click "reply"!?
OTOH, it means CR will more in sync with the kookiness of everything else.
"Seems like there should be some class action lawsuits over all this bailing and drowning"
How much is there to be made suing the destitute? Paulson has 500mil you could go after, but I think he got a, "get out of court free," card from the TARP.
Bob Dobbs
I was thinking of that when I saw a dead doe on I-66 this morning. It will be like W. VA. All you will see is the gutpile. The rest will be dripping and cooling inside someones leased BMW trunk
"...seems like I have a legitimate complaint and deserve some remedy... "
-you'd be wrong. You pays your money, you takes your choice.
"-what do you call non-union labor?"
Fairly priced? Unions have served a valuable purpose over time in getting workers fair and competitive wages and benefits and driving out the bulk of the abuses by BigCo. But after having achieved an impressive list of accomplishments, proceeded to demand more, to justify the union dues even when workers were getting a pretty fair shake.
Kind of like how MADD are taking things a little too far now, and getting policy made that works against their original interest.
But even more dangerous....
what if you click "ignore" when you meant to click "reply"!?
You fix it in the "My ignore list" in the upper left-hand corner of the page.
Any lawyers in the house? Is the following statement even close to true?
bondholders ... have the same legal rights as the unions
My (limited) understanding of bankruptcy case law is that bondholders are way more likely to get wiped out than pension funds, but I'm not clear at all on the underlying statutes.
I don't know that auto labor is responsible for the automakers' problems. Management decides what to build. Management negotiates with labor. When something goes wrong in a business, it is usually due to a management problem.
The tellers at the bank didn't cause this financial meltdown.
Blackhalo- calling non-union labor "fairly priced" is condoning a race to the bottom in wages. Where does it end? And more importantly, who decides? The worker?
"Management negotiates with labor." It is kind of hard to negotiate with, "Give us more or we shut you down." Watch how fast Wal*Mart will shut down a unionized location. But the Big 3 got themselves in an inescapable bind and here we are.
Beware what you wish for.. you might get it!
I think most of the business oriented people are brainwashed by the meme that organized labor is to blame. Would you please take the blinders off and admit American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor, no how no way. Organize labor has the right to organize in order to have the power not to be taken too advantage of by management. Do you remember the movie F.I.S.T. The New York Times > Log In
"American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor, no how no way"
3rd world wages == 3rd world house price
and 3rd world stock market
and 3rd world disease susceptibility
Henry Ford figured that out one hundred years ago.
Apparently we have to figure it out the hard way all over again.
Blackhalo, ever heard of a "lockout"? Or "goons"? How about "outsourcing"?
WalMart would be better off paying its employees more. They wouldn't have such an issue with unionization. Right now, many WalMart employees depend on food stamps and have to use the emergency room for health care, which amounts to a huge taxpayer subsidy to WalMart and its customers.
"American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor, no how no way"
Don't these guys ever get a raise?
Obama will side with the UAW. There will be no honest BK, if there is one at all and should be. Government motors will replace Pointiac with the Palosi and soon Buick with the Reid. The Hummer will come back as the O'bummer. All with central tailpipe technology. Government subsidized of course!
"All raises will be corrected for by the application of general inflation and/or currency adjustments."
--Your friendly neighborhood politburo.
Is "central tailpipe technology" where the exhaust fumes are re-injected into the car's ventilation system?
That's the latest in emission control technology, I guess.
"And more importantly, who decides? The worker?"
Ideally, the market, assuming BigCo does not collude with each other and get things like H1-B to distort it. Wages, like the Yuan "should" float based on supply and demand. Over time, again assuming a lack of abuse, a fair wage should be reached. Granted BigCo will not work to our best interest but smaller companies, if not disadvantaged would eat BigCo's lunch with the top talent, if BigCo does not pay a fair price.
I know that is a lot of assumptions and idealism, with regard to the abuses that we have seen in the past, but if Gov did it's job of fairly regulating, we would not be suffering such hard times. Unfortunately Gov rarely does it job or ends up distorting the market in unnatural ways and that is why we ended up with unions. But the pendulum, to me, swung a little to far in the unions direction and the unions abused their position a bit too much resulting in the demise of the Big 3. Again, just in my opinion.
Detroit doesn't have to compete with Chinese labor or any third world country. They already have car companies around the wold including China.They have to only compete in the North American market.
"American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor,"
That would be high wages for factory work in China, no?
How many bond holders does it take to make a Impala?
" Is "central tailpipe technology" where the exhaust fumes are re-injected into the car's ventilation system?
That's the latest in emission control technology, I guess"
No, Central tailpipe is an electric car where they use coal burning electricity smoke stack technology! The joke is on greenies as out of sight out of mind.
Blackhalo, those are a lot of idealistic assumptions based on the perfection of human nature. Labor must defend itself. Period. That will one day include the Chinese, and it is in our interest to support them in their efforts, however long it takes. Until then, we are at our bosses mercy.
Right now, many WalMart employees depend on food stamps and have to use the emergency room for health care
Care to cite a source? (Other than SEIU propaganda.)
"Central tailpipe is an electric car where they use coal burning electricity smoke stack technology!"
Like the first locomotives?
Can unions work at all over a longer period of time when there is a very high level of unemployment? Probably only as long as the government welfare programs are sufficient to keep people from working for subsistence level compensation. Or as long as there is adequate enforcement of labor laws.
Ken, what about being able to see who is ignoring you? It might encourage certain people to leave if they notice the majority of online users are ignoring them, plus my online persona has a low self confidence.
Remember this classic?
The 2012 Pelosi GTxi SS/RT Sport Edition
YouTube - The 2012 Pelosi GTxi SS/RT Sport Edition
OT: Austin downtown, trendy residential real estate is finally starting to cave in.
http://www.brazosplaceauction.com is auctioning "19 luxury condominiums". Downtown is a vibrant place so you would actually want to live there. Previously $199K to $1.5mil, bids starting at $80K. I wonder what starting bids are for the $1.5mil properties? I live centrally (not downtown) and the neighborhood only began to see price decreases starting early March. We had a bubble price sale in Nov. 2008.
Texas prices have been resilient until now. There are many more "luxury condominiums" coming to completion in the next 18 months. I wonder if the state accounted for decreased prices as much as they should have. The property tax was reduced on this house by ~10%, if that's the decrease they forecasted for the condos then they have a nice surprise coming. It was strange hearing/seeing stories from other states and have the opposite occurring here. Look out below?
Request to Chrysler is even non-sensical. They want secured creditors (not bondholders who are unsecured) to take 15 cents. Why they heck would they take that
when they know the collateral would fetch 60 cents ????? check my post here
A Blog
"Like the first locomotives? "
Yep, just like electric submarines, cars since the beginning, trolleys. Batteries and electric motors have been around for a long time.
Let's see...just like Gettlefinger's obstinance last December: He knew that if he stonewalled, Uncle Sam would cough up billions for GM, because 'WeJustCan'tAllowGMToFail' is the mantra.
So, the bondholders stonewall, knowing that the taxpayers will get soaked for billions, which will end up in their pockets.
After all, 'WeJustCan'tAllowGMToFail'!
The bondholders know it.
They have NO incentive to make a deal.
This is Moral Hazard operating in plain sight for all to see.
This is socialism, and this is just the beginning.
kz,
I will be in Austin all next week. Any resturaunt recomendations downtown?
Micheal.
Thanks for the Laugh!
"Any resturaunt recomendations downtown?"
Avoid Mexican food.
"Labor must defend itself. Period. "
It seems obvious. Benevolent owners exist in the novels of Dickens and in a few real-life examples. But since the system implies that the rate of profit should be at least maintained, preferably increased, and the market will bear only so much increased price, the profit margin must be extracted from the cost of labor. You can decrease the cost of labor by increasing productivity through technological and organizational innovation, or you can reduce wages, benefits and salaries, and or increase hours applied to production. It looks like we are about to experience the last two strategies.
One alternative is the corporate, fascist state, but the workers inevitably are screwed in that one too, in real world practice. In socialism, the state confiscates profit through low wages and a low standard of living.
So what's left? Eh?
Don't bet against the bondholders. Remember how GMAC should have gone bankrupt last December, then the govt caved and threw more money at them when the tender offer (debt for equity) didn't meet the targets? Bill Gross laughed all the way to the bank.
I see a similar outcome here.
Avoid Mexican food.
That is not going to happen.
My (limited) understanding of bankruptcy case law is that bondholders are way more likely to get wiped out than pension funds, but I'm not clear at all on the underlying statutes.
unsecured bondholders (and the underwater portions of secured creditors) are at the bottom of the credit totem pole. Employee benefit plans are a just a couple of notches above it; importantly, they're above many government obligations.
US CODE: Title 11,507. Priorities
In the Facist state the workers pay actually drops due to all the levys the state takes out from it.
Of course, I've read some economics bloggers who maintain that the workers ought to be screwed, were born to be screwed or they wouldn't be workers, should be grateful not to be starving, and who the hell are they to object to being screwed?
These screw-the-worker people are their own worst enemy, because they obviously haven't figured out yet why they are alive.
I think what many who wish to blame management only as the problem should research what handcuffs the UAW has put on them. Job protection is deep. Including control of factory shut downs and still having to pay employees for nothing in return. Job banks. You can't increase productivity if it violates contracts set decades ago. UAW will soon mean You Ain't Working! Party is over the effort should be anew clean sheet of paper and start over.
I bought GM's "GRM" bonds after they slipped the other day when everyone went ga ga over the b.s. "news" that GM wasn't going to pay off these bonds. I used to hate the bondholders and now I'm one of them
Obama doesn't have the cajones to let GM slip in the murky BK waters. This is not about what's right. This is about making money. I would actually prefer to see GM go bust, but 5 to 1 odds was too tempting to pass up.
"So what's left? Eh?
-what's left is the workers owning the means of production, which, if I'm not totally out to lunch, is what is being suggested. At least in part. Don't tell me how scary that is. ( That last is not directed at you, Pavel, for whom I have the highest respect.)
So, when is the memorial service for nova? I would like to send flowers if I could.
Pavel,
I always had a problem with the word "sheeple." It has the elitist shine to me of overeducated, Volvo driving, latte swilling, my shit don't stink and Gawd loves me to much to make me ever be poor
"In the Facist state the workers pay actually drops due to all the levys the state takes out from it."
The German economy in the 30s was deeply in trouble, the triumph of left-wing national socialism was no where in sight, and Hitler was desperate to take the country into war as a solution.
"-what's left is the workers owning the means of production, which, if I'm not totally out to lunch, is what is being suggested. At least in part. Don't tell me how scary that is."
That hasn't worked either. Yugoslavia.
'I always had a problem with the word "sheeple."'
It makes me cringe a bit.
Bill Gross and PIMCO used to own a lot of GM bonds. They were at the first creditor committee meeting; saw the losers around the table with them and asked to be removed from the committee. PIMCO sold most of their GM bonds and are uninterested observers.
"Would you please take the blinders off and admit American labor cannot compete with 1$ an hour Chinese labor, no how no way."
This is the 1st step in fixing what is wrong with our economy. Unfortunately it won't happen till it is too late.
One alternative is the corporate, fascist state, but the workers inevitably are screwed in that one too, in real world practice. In socialism, the state confiscates profit through low wages and a low standard of living.
Yeah, it takes specific genetic programming to get socialism to work for ants, wasps and bees (called "haplodiploidy"). Not sure what chance we've got to get it to work for humans without that or maybe something special in the drinking water.
Pavel,
I disagree. War was the only reason for his existence in more levels than one. NSDAP taxed the worker in a lot of ways. WFW, for instance, was nothing but an organized shake down by the state of its populace. In many ways it was protection money. Then there was the dues, various pay outs to organizations that promoted the common good.
On the other hand concert tickets were cheap, as was vacations. Of course who got played was somewhat narrow.
"Labor must defend itself. Period."
Labor must defend itself by providing VALUE. Unless you can do a job for less or far more productively than a Chinese or Indian worker, US Auto will go the way of US Textiles or US TV. US Labor must have some level of training or specialization in automation or other factors to at least come close to the transport advantage to get those jobs back, or price parity will happen.
You can fight with your boss over wages an bennies all you want, but if US Labor does not provide real value, your boss will be out of business just like you.
Unions have distorted the market by quite a large margin, protecting some workers from the harsh truth that you have to work harder or cheaper than the Chinese or Indian workers. And US Labor has some HUGE advantages with education, location, work ethic, and infrastructure.
Protectionism does not help much as it puts the whole country at a competitive disadvantage putting people out of work who might have been able to actually buy your product. And in the global market if we go down the protectionist path, those who do not, will beat us with a lower cost of living while maintaining a competitive standard of living, due to the cheaper products available to them.
If I Ignore myself and then post, will something explode?
Michael,
That is true.
ShadowInventory
Class Action Lawsuits Over Merrill Lynch Losses
Bank Of America Corporation (NYSE:BAC)Investors File Class Action Lawsuits Over Merrill Lynch Losses - Free-Press-Release.com
KCoop:
I don't ignore any commenter (know your enemies...) but I really appreciated the ability to rank some as excellent and cut right to their posts. It is extremely helpful at crunch time when there will be >10 posts/day and 500+ comments/post.
Thanks and everyone hit that upper left button now!
"That last is not directed at you, Pavel, for whom I have the highest respect.)"
Bless you. And I have the same reaction to worker ownership. It may or may not be scary, but it doesn't work. Large enterprises need to be managed by specialists. I haven't the least objection to private ownership, moderated by, well, morality and social solidarity. And that's pie-in-the-sky, isn't it? So far. My Catholic friends believe in the Church's social teachings, and in Distributivism, that is, everything on the smallest scale possible. Small is beautiful. A size humans can live in and not be overwhelmed and alienated. I don't see it anywhere - perhaps in some small developing world co-ooperatives. I don't know. Not around here.
OT and @ Nova: Because of its proximity to the German immigrant community of the Texas Hill country, Austin used to (early 1970's and prior) have some excellent "German influenced" restaurants. My favorite back then was German influenced chicken fried steak. That German influence on the crusine might be what you should look for in Austin if it hasn't been "Yuppified" away over the last three decades.
"That hasn't worked either. Yugoslavia. "
The marketplace sets wages on it's own... The workers always think they are not getting enough, and management always thinks they are getting too much... But if any employer tries to underpay the going wage, they will not only get the worst of the labor but there will be huge turnover and the business will suffer... Then the government comes along and does things like setting a minimum wage or mandating benefits which distorts the natural market and the result is loss of jobs for those who cant produce enough to meet their cost to the employer... From experience I know that paying more money does not necessarily produce better results... I think those high paying finance jobs with huge bonuses are a complete fabrication...
" Pavel,
I disagree. "
I disagree with that. I think we agree. : )
Thanks for the tip on the class action - I've been expecting this...
Aritophon,
I remember that from time in San Antonio and the bio of LBJ. There was probably German language newspapers into the 60's in some of the small towns. Thanks, I will do a search for German food. tonight...
Yugos If I remember correctly where Fiat 128 cars.
pavel,
yes, wrong place but always the right time...
Australia: Queensland’s Pandemic Plan Activated in Response to 14 Suspected Cases
nova (profile) wrote
Michael,
That is true.
Come on - I finally get to ignore him and he says something true? That seems so impossible, based on past history. Well, other than the MIAC thing.
"It's too bad the quality wasn't up to US standards."
The poor quality was, I think, actually inherent in the system.
There are a few counter-examples, but not many. Byelorus Tractor of Minsk made excellent machines inexpensively. A few US farmers actually bought them. Strong machines. But they couldn't get the business end together.
In other news
Pakistani Offensive Puts Truce With the Taliban on Shakier Ground - NY Times
Cleric Accuses Pakistan of Violating Swat Accord
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The uneasy truce between the Pakistani government and Taliban militants in the Swat Valley appeared increasingly fragile on Monday as government forces attacked militants in a neighboring district for a second day, causing the main negotiator to break off talks.
Maulana Sufi Muhammad, the radical cleric who has been mediating peace talks between the government and the Taliban in Swat, halted negotiations on Monday to protest the military operation in the Lower Dir district west of Swat, his spokesman said.
Why not just sell it to the workers? We could loan them enough money on share price t(AIG spends that much on hookers and blow in a week).
No one would even notice.
Then, it is make or break situation, without those dumb white rich boys in management to screw things up.
bobn,
I know. He is arguing that US labor can not compete with Chinese wages.
Efficient market
"I know. He is arguing that US labor can not compete with Chinese wages."
In a global economy wage and cost differentiation may destroy us. We haven't figured out how to manage a global economy. It's too new.
Blackhalo - I have been here long enough to know your education exceeds mine by orders of magnitude, and there is no way I will be able to disambiguate your argument if favor of market forces. All I can say is I am in favor of labor, in all cases.
Does anyone recall Weirton Steel from the 1980's? I believe that wound up as employee owned -- but I can't remember much about the process by which it happened. I believe they eventually closed down, but I don't think it was from internal failures as much as external forces in U.S. and world trade policies. I could be wrong though.
Seems to me Weirton Steel was something of a success for a few years.
Blackhalo,
That's what fair bilateral trade agreements are for. I say bring back bilateral trade agreements, end NAFTA, GAT, and CAFTA and screw the crybabies who don't like it.
"Does anyone recall Weirton Steel from the 1980's? I believe that wound up as employee owned -- but I can't remember much about the process by which it happened. I believe they eventually closed down, but I don't think it was from internal failures as much as external forces in U.S. and world trade policies. I could be wrong though.
Seems to me Weirton Steel was something of a success for a few years."
We used to pass it on the West Virginia side on the way to Steubenville. It closed around 2000, no? External forces are part of the model.
WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- The U.S. Treasury Dept. estimated it will borrow $361 billion in marketable debt in the April-June quarter, $196 billion higher than it previously projected, according to a Treasury statement released Monday. With the current, 2009 fiscal year at midpoint, the federal government is running a budget deficit nearly $1 trillion.
http://bit.ly/EPoQh
So projected $2 trillion budget deficit for 2009
As The Triumph of the Banking Oligarchs continues at huge taxpayer expense perhaps most Americans should look forward to being a much BIGGER version of Argentina or Mexico in the near future !
I believe that wound up as employee owned--
Rent The Take by Klien to see what employee owned (or taken) business have done in Argentina.
Quite enlightening, to inquiring minds--
The bondholders have a weaker call on the assets than the retirees. That said, the involvement of the UAW is a real problem here. Its role is murky by its playing of a dual role: advocate for the current workers, and manager of the retirement plans. I cannot see how this will not end badly, as these two groups have completely disparate interests. I predict the retired will end up on the short end of the stick. The UAW will squander the money in the retirement plan, and transfer the empty husk of obligations to the gov't. An independent board should have been appointed to manage the retirement money, not a group with such an obvious conflict of interest.
Way OT before I go...
Things I learned today from the new guy who has the office next to me:
Only cops and citizens use holsters. The bad guys do not. If you are working undercover - never carry your weapon in a holster.
The shotgun is primo for drug busts in houses.
Someone carrying concealed will frequently touch the place where they have tucked the weapon.
9mm is not a good carry weapon. Go with a 10 or 357
In Iraq the laser target beam thing is invisible. On patrol your leader will light up someone and only the squad can see it. Because of the monocole. If on patrol, someone who more than 1 person thinks is a prob will get lit up by multiple members.
The M16 with the laser sight and properly sighted in is good for 300 yds no prob
It takes 3 men min to take just 1 person down.
If you think you are going to get hurt in a tussle with a civillian - fu#k them up. You want to go home.
45 autos and the old m14 carbines and such are making a comeback.
One favorite is on South Congress - Home Slice Pizza - 78704 (South Austin) - Austin, TX
There are tons of good restaurants downtown and yelp! is usually accurate if you search out your taste.
If you like steak and a lighter wallet - Austin Land & Cattle Company - Downtown - Austin, TX
Neither of those are in downtown though. Err...
"To the extent that the UAW is a secured creditor, they should participate with the bondholders.
Beyond that, what do they deserve that a worker elsewhere does not?"
1.Workers elsewhere are free to organize and bargain
2.Let the bondholders build cars if they want.
For once the producers of value seem to getting a better deal than the rent-seekers (pigmen) and the outrage is extreme.
"I will be in Austin all next week. Any restaurant recommendations downtown?"
I would vote Iron Cactus, and Kerby Lane. Chuey's or Hula Hut are pretty good for Tex Mex. I've always liked Lambert's for BBQ. Amy's Ice Cream too, if you are in the Arboretum area, as local favorites that are fairly unique. If you are in over the weekend, you should hit 6th and catch some live music. I would recommend checking the Austin Chronicle to see who's playing and where.
Music Listings - AustinChronicle.com
"I predict the retired will end up on the short end of the stick."
I'm 70. I fear for my contemporaries.
Banker shill publicly humiliated:
Video - CNBC.com
pavel,
I see your contemporaries working and I want to hug them or something. The old lady who works the register, who when I asked the waitress "Where is Edna" laughed and said "she has become prone to wandering off."
The old guy pushing the plastic dumpster on wheels who looks like he going to keel over at the mall. The man who served me at Starbucks who laughed about retirement and how his plans had melted away....
nova,
And that is precisely why americans will strangle each other than focus on getting out of the mess.
thx BH and KZ
nova, OT, but I'd love to hear sometime why a 9mm is not a good carry weapon. I love mine, truly.
Look people, any system in which anyone has to work for basic survival will always work against you.. remember that a poor person working to survive will always be more motivated than you..
The "freedom lover" says you need to have private ownership of capital to be properly motivated. "Skin in the game..."
But the laborer is a piece of machinery who should work as hard as whatever 3rd world slaveholder will pay, and can not be trusted with ownership. Just give the owner your skin.
DCRogers,
His experience? 3 years patrol and 3 undercover. Plus 1 year Iraq infantry.
The 9mm requires multiple shots to bring down someone who is cranked. Fed law enforcement supposedly has dumped the 9mm for that reason. Where he did patrol they did it for the same reason.
Does anything that GM bondholders say matter? This is a meaningless argument over a worthless company run by trolls and staffed my morons that makes piss poor crap.
The shotgun is primo for drug busts in houses.
Forget pistols- it is about shotguns and Ak's and SKS's. The easiest ammo to get on the planet.
But a 12 gage pump in close quarters---
Why not give people methamphetamine at a few cents/ pill? It would save us a lot of money currently wasted on useless cops.
PS- Read a little about how nazi's dealt with 'disturbances' in jewish ghettos and then compare it our war on drugs.. I have to admit that the nazi's has a better sense of style.
//The 9mm requires multiple shots to bring down someone who is cranked. Fed law enforcement supposedly has dumped the 9mm for that reason. Where he did patrol they did it for the same reason.//
"I have been here long enought to know your education exceeds mine by orders of magnitude, and there is no way I will be able to disambiguate your argument if favor of market forces. "
I really doubt that I am any more educated and I usually agree strongly with your postings. But sometimes, market forces work. And sometimes, to the benefit of labor, by providing greater value products at a lower price even if it is at the expense of some jobs.
"All I can say is I am in favor of labor, in all cases."
I will definitely take the side of labor in most cases, but I feel there are natural limits that if not respected, will sink the whole business, industry, or country it taken to extremes. It is just my opinion that in the isolation provided by a near monopoly on labor and powerful representation in government, the UAW took things a little bit too far, and bear some responsibility in the demise of GM.
@ Lucifer: "An eye for the main chance." ... THAT and hard work will allow one to succeed -- if success ,is measured by much higher income. I look around me at the other proles of my workers collective and see none who have an eye for that "main chance" as some author (probably English) once put it...
But Finance MBAs certainly have had that knack up till now.
My worker's soviet is having a meeting tonight to discuss whether the wife (diabetic) applies for disability under Social Security. Plenty of motivation in my work brigade. But this Stakhanov is having trouble keeping up.
"Does anything that GM bondholders say matter? This is a meaningless argument over a worthless company run by trolls and staffed my morons that makes piss poor crap."
But tell us how you really feel....
Education does not matter if the person is immersed in dogma. The smartest minds once used to say that heavier than air flight was possible... how did that work out.
"Banker shill publicly humiliated:"
Thank-you Yogi. I have been looking forward to this.
Aristophon,
No society has ever improved itself by people trying to screw each other... why would this not apply to nations and civilizations.
"The "freedom lover" says you need to have private ownership of capital to be properly motivated. "Skin in the game..."
But the laborer is a piece of machinery who should work as hard as whatever 3rd world slaveholder will pay, and can not be trusted with ownership. Just give the owner your skin."
Using people as machines is obviously wrong, odious, immoral. That doesn't mean that private property is wrong, odious and immoral. It can be when in a society everyone is for himself alone.
In the socialist society I saw, they used to say: When things belong to everyone, they belong to no one.
If there is no middle way in which people can remain human to one another, then we really are at a dead end.
Gavshire Hathaway,
Drown the management, bondholders, shareholders and start "anew"
Of course there's a middle way. Virtually every law firm is employee-owned. If you retire, you have no more ownership rights. The major sports leagues have revenue sharing. Workers must have skin in the game to care about long-run success.
Blackhalo, I totally respect your opinion, believe me, but if management hadn't allowed non-union labor to infiltrate the marketplace for its own purposes, we wouldn't be where we are today. How labor can be blamed for this development is beyond me. How much "influence" does management, versus labor, have with government, anyway?
No shot is fired in half of all encounters.
Of the remaining 1/2, 9mm historically has 50% stopping power. But over the past fifteen-twenty years, ammunition choice has become much more important and last time I checked, 9mm is capable of 70+% rate.
So simply having a 9mm and good ammo in hand is a 85% win scenario.
Marshall & Sanow have compiled empirical results on handgun shootings for quite some time, at least the past twenty years. I know of no one with a comparable study.
Book Review: Handgun Stopping Power - The Definitive Study
I oversell, a little, but it's a TKO.
Video - CNBC.com
"If there is no middle way in which people can remain human to one another, then we really are at a dead end. " - PC
-these are the kinds of statements for which I respect you most.
"if management hadn't allowed non-union labor to infiltrate the marketplace for its own purposes, we wouldn't be where we are today."
Union labor had to make concessions, one way or another, as they had priced themselves out of the market. If management had not "allowed" non-union labor, they would be out business anyway as non-union automakers would beat them on value/price.
Ever see Tucker? Union funded politicos helped run that competitor into oblivion as it was a threat to the status quo. As a result, many years later, foreign labor was able to produce a superior product due to the fact the domestic labor had eliminated all domestic competition and fallen in to complacency.
Particularly bad were the 80's when US Auto was engineering 3 year obsolescence. And they really did fall apart in 3 years. This allowed foreign auto to kick US Auto on the low end by Japan and the high by Europe and now largely by everyone. It was like introducing cats to Australia, or Small Pox to the Americas.
Blackhalo, I value your feedback, truly, but what part did the UAW play in "planned obsolesence"?
"what part did the UAW play in "planned obsolescence"? "
UAW and their representatives assisted in eliminating all domestic, non-UAW competitors. UAW and their representatives enacted legislation that severely restricted the possibility of new domestic auto start-ups. Planned obsolescence would not work if there was a viable domestic competitor who was not in on the deal.
Why not.. I am in a good mood
Merck touts positive hep C data
April 24, 2009 — 11:10am ET | By John Carroll
There's been plenty of new data on hepatitis C drugs coming from the 44th Annual European Association for the Study of the Liver meeting in Copenhagen, Denmark.
Yesterday, Schering-Plough came up with intriguing positive data on boceprevir. Today, Merck is releasing data on MK-7009. In a Phase IIa trial, 69 percent to 82 percent of patients taking standard therapies combined with the experimental therapy saw their viral loads drop to undetectable levels in 28 days. Ninety-five treatment naive chronic HCV patients were randomized across five treatment arms with regimens of MK-7009 300 mg or 600 mg twice daily, MK-7009 600 mg or 800 mg once daily, or placebo, for 28 days.
NEW YORK, April 25 (Reuters) - Vertex Pharmaceuticals Inc's experimental hepatitis C drug, telaprevir, proved significantly better than standard therapy in knocking out the virus in patients for whom prior treatments failed, according to results of a clinical study.The notoriously difficult to treat patients fared far better when telaprevir was added to their therapy for both those who received the Vertex drug for 12 weeks and those in a 24-week treatment group, researchers said.
The sustained viral response (SVR) rate was 51 percent in the 12-week telaprevir group and 52 percent on the 24-week telaprevir regimen, compared with a 14 percent SVR rate in patients who received a 48-week course of ribavirin and pegylated-interferon -- the current standard of care.
April 27, 2009 (Copenhagen, Denmark) — Boceprevir, an investigational oral hepatitis C virus (HCV) protease inhibitor, in combination with peginterferon alfa-2b and ribavirin, significantly increases the sustained viral response (SVR) rate in patients with HCV genotype 1, according to a study presented here at the European Association for the Study of the Liver 44th Annual Meeting.
The findings are the final results of the phase 2 HCV Serine Protease Inhibitor Therapy (SPRINT)-1 study, which evaluated boceprevir (800 mg 3 times a day) in 3 treatment regimens: 4 weeks of peginterferon alfa-2b (1.5 μg/kg once weekly) plus ribavirin (800 to 1400 mg daily by weight) followed by the addition of boceprevir (800 mg 3 times a day) for either 24 weeks or 44 weeks; boceprevir in combination with peginterferon alfa-2b plus ribavirin at the doses above for either 28 or 48 weeks (triple-combination therapy); and peginterferon alfa-2b plus low-dose ribavirin (400 to1000 mg/day) and boceprevir for 48 weeks.
Blackhalo, sir, how effective were they (the UAW) in eliminating all "non-domestic" competitors? How did foreign competitors gain marketshare?. How were Toyata and the others able to construct plants on American soil? Surely not through the aquiescense of the UAW.Your argument concerning " domestic" competitors may have some validity, but even if they were not successful in this endeavor, how would this have averted our present predicament? I am not claiming the UAW is pristine, or blameless, but I fail to see how their supposed power in Congress is responsible for anything less than their present demise.
Broward,the Marshall and Sanow study is seriously Flawed as is Fackler's writing.Ayoob's opinions,while based on anecdotal evidence are based on a LOT of anecdotal evidence.IMO the best and clearest writing on pistol caliber effectiveness is By Grant Cunningham and you can find his treatise at his Blog.If you have a choice,take a 16 inch naval rifle to a gunfight...
"how effective were they (the UAW) in eliminating all "non-domestic" competitors?"
Otto Kerner, Jr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
I would argue that Kerner was on the UAW payroll. Also, I would be of the view that very few in Michigan, Ohio or Chicago politicos get nominated to the (D) ticket without UAW support, and that these representatives, over time have worked more towards the UAW and Big3 interests than the public's.
"How did foreign competitors gain marketshare?" Well, despite very high tariffs on imported products, the imported goods were of such comparatively high quality, that it was there for the taking. At the time, domestic autos were of such poor quality no one outside of the US would touch them.
"How were Toyota and the others able to construct plants on American soil?"
Because right to work states that wanted jobs, invited them, and offered radical tax incentives to move production. Also, it allowed them to circumvent the high tariffs of the time. The UAW was none to fond of the big 3 moving any jobs to a right to work state. So those states went and found someone who would.
Yep! They killed the goose that laid the "get 95% of your salary for up to 3 years without working" egg.
Negotiating to get blood from a stone....