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That's great. Any "glimmers of change" yet?
Hope NOW! Or else!
I would like to add to Squeeze Me's statement about the importance of property rights. "Property" doesn't mean only real estate. It includes all other kinds of objects - such as printing presses! For an example of how property right mischief can subvert other rights, try exercising your first amendment rights over the radio waves - which the FCC effectively owns. If they don't like what you're saying, they can and do put a stop to it.
With all the spending, I would hope we are seeing some "progress."
I see glimmers of hope...
Yesterday I heard someone say that their home prices will take "about ten years" to return to 07 prices. Last year they said about five. When they say "never" I'll know we will have capitulated.
What a bunch of crap. Why do they even bother to report what he says anymore? This is just like Bernanke's "green shoots" comments on 60 Minutes that we completely dashed by the FOMC statement that came out later. I'm totally tired of the lying.
Bill Clinton publicly told BHO to be more positive, and that's what we're hearing lately.
Bill Clinton publicly told BHO to be more positive, and that's what we're hearing lately.
It works.
Believe dumbo, believe.....
Wiley Coyote wipes his brow and breathes a sigh of relief.
Q Sir, are you saying the recession is abating?
THE PRESIDENT: I’m saying we’re seeing progress.
Q You’re saying what?
THE PRESIDENT: I’ve said that we’re seeing progress.
I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so!
"That's great. Any "glimmers of change" yet?"
How about glimmers of transparency?
"Fed Orders Banks Not to Release Stress Test Results"
Oh, yeah, right.
I like Obama personally. I donated money to him during his campaign (mainly out of loathing for conservatives/republicans). But they way he has jumped in with Summers (particularly Summers) , Geithner, Rubin, Goldman Sachs et. al. has really disappointed me and caused me to question my support for him going forward quite a bit.
"It works. "
In the short term. But in the end, banks still broke.
So many here comment that we're "turning Japanese" as if their lost decade + is worse than we can do--I think it's probably the best we can do.
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!"
Wiley Coyote wipes his brow and breathes a sigh of relief.
Better not look down.
The economy is dead. The economy is risen!
Bringing stability is a higher priority than transparency in the throws of a crisis (unless it ruins your shorts of course)
"Economists see U.S. recession ending in second half of 2009"
Economists see U.S. recession ending in second half of 2009 - Related Stories - CPA Letter Daily
"Six Flags delisted from New York Stock Exchange"
UPDATE 1-Six Flags delisted from New York Stock Exchange
| Markets
| US Markets
| Reuters
Right.
You know, If Obama can only see "glimmers of hope", then we really are done for.
T-Shirt for the times.
There is no political solution
To our troubled evolution
Have no faith in constitution
There is no bloody revolution
We are spirits in the material world
We are spirits in the material world
We are spirits in the material world
We are spirits in the material world
Our so called leaders speak
With words they try to jail you
They subjugate the meek
But it's the rhetoric of failure
Economy recovers late 2009 or early 2010.
GiezCubed wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 10:53am.
Bringing stability is a higher priority than transparency in the throws of a crisis (unless it ruins your shorts of course)
What a convienient doctrine. It allows the internment of the Nissei, acts as a fig leaf for the bushite Scum's attack on the Constitution, and justifies the TARP.
Wow, you're a policy genius. You've just discovered the shock doctrine.
slappywhite
I hope you learned a valuable lesson about our political system. Its okay the obama T-shirt is great at cleaning up spills.
According to Krugman, the "progress" isn't anything like the sign of a true recovery:
The bounce and the revision thing - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com
"We feel confident that as we deal with problems in the banking system that we're also fixing the non-banking sector when it comes to auto and credit card loans," Obama added.
He still doesn't get it. More debt is not the solution to too much debt.
"The audacity of endless bailouts" is a bestseller on Wall Street, I was told.
If Obama could run the kind of Presidency he talked about during the campaign, he would. But he can't do it. He's gambling with a $15 trillion economy and the lives of the whole world. Those are heavy dice to roll. And things are bad. Much much worse than they are saying publicly. Not just much worse, but much much worse. You don't delever a 40-to-1 bet the wrong way without a huge amount of pain. The only thing they can do now is to avoid a panic. Everything they say and do is to avoid a panic.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!
Another interesting point -- regardless of which outcome we get (inflation vs. deflation), there is one inexorable result. Quality of life for the US will deteriorate.
Expectations have been inflated by a bubble in asset prices. Boomers have not saved enough for retirement, have not adequately funded pension funds, and have not paid taxes commensurate with what's been spent. Yet there is an expectation that obligations will continue to be met, and as a society we will continue to lead a privileged existence that we've grown accustomed to. This despite the fact that we consume a greater percentage of the world's resources than our labors justify (as indicated by the wage imbalances, and trade imbalances across countries).
The asset bubble that is now popping is the last bastion of the notion that we can somehow avoid the level playing field created by globalization. As the labor market finds equilibrium, so does quality of life. It is inevitable. Any hope of reversing the slide would involve either protectionism, or militarism. At some point we may need to decide whether we want to try to raise the level of all boats (bring up the emerging world), or slow our own decline by attempting to reverse globalization. In a resource constrained world, either option has its perils.
Let me be more explicit than snide -- if your policy framework can't handle a crisis and you need to resort to opaque fiat to rule during emergencies, you:
a) have a policy framework that sucks. You are throwing away the laws precisely when you need them most -- in a crisis when there are many differing opinions and people trying to assert their interests. You need better laws or you need to learn to ignore Chicken Little.
b) are going to succumb to manuifactured crises as each successive set of ambitious power-seekers seeks an excuse to hit the "do as you please" button and free themselves of policy constraints.
It's not law if it doesn't apply 100% of the time. If it applies 99% of the time except when you really want it to mean something else, it's Calvinball dressed up as law. Law means applies to everyone, even important people, even when they don't want it to.
in reference to
snacky, above, who claims that our 1st amendment rights are being ripped off by the fcc
rush is the canary in the coal mine
when the fcc yanks his chain then you know the air wave hazmat team has arrived
New movie out starring that hilarious comedy duo: Tim and Larry.
">Weekend at Bernie's
Great progress was made on the memo describing the need for optimism.
"Economy recovers late 2009 or early 2010. "
Nope. It will not return to any semblance of what it was. Not until we recognize and diagnose the underlying problems. And make some tough decisions.
Oops.
Tim and Larry's new movie:
What an arrogant jerk.
sorry repost from previous topic...
dryfly,
Say what?
Were they FORCED to bring the jobs back? No. Then how is that protectionism?
Sometimes you people don't think.
H-1B Visas: 'Buy American' Comes to TARP - BusinessWeek
Everybody just think happy thoughts!
Happy Thoughts!
While we continue to stealth the shirt off your back and the lunch money from your pocket.
Just keep smiling you idiots.
sorry repost from previous topic...
dryfly,
Say what?
Were they FORCED to bring the jobs back? No. Then how is that protectionism?
Sometimes you people don't think.
H-1B Visas: 'Buy American' Comes to TARP - BusinessWeek
I aologize for being such an idiot.
Weekend at Bernie's
bow before the sheik, obamama
An essay of when hope fades and people stop believing in the social system. Extremely well written.
charles hugh smith-Survival+ 10: When Belief in the System Fades
I am going to hold my breath and wait for a segment on the daily show in which Jon Stewart replays this clip over and over again against a backdrop of shots of bandos, foreclosure signs and tent cities.
Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:00am.
He still doesn't get it. More debt is not the solution to too much debt.
My nomination for phrase of the year is, "it'll come back."
Spoken kind of like guys in New Guinea would, upon seeing the big green metal bird full of white men fly away.
I hear it alot.
Gotta get to building that air strip. It'll come back.
I'd say "glimmers" is accurate. I'm of the belief that this is all a bear market rally. And the banks are still in trouble. And we obviously haven't seen the end of rising unemployment and housing foreclosures. But I didn't exactly predict the market would jump 26% in a month in March either.
As a matter of politics, though, it makes sense Obama would start talking about glimmers of hope. It encourages "optimism" while sounding vaguely realistic. I wouldn't expect the President to say, "You know, we spent $787 billion in stimulus and spent trillions in bank bailouts and the economy is hopelessly doomed."
In politics as in everthing else honesty is the best policy. But it's so tempting to equivocate ...
"The only thing they can do now is to avoid a panic. Everything they say and do is to avoid a panic."
Then they should be saying, "Move to the exits in an orderly fashion." Instead of, "Smoke? Fire? Nothing to worry about, it is all part of the show. Everything is contained."
Vote 3rd party next time, it is very satisfying. I flicked the dems and repubs the bird in the voting booth last year...literally as well as with my vote
it's easter weekend. the media team should have him emerge from a tomb sunday morning with a green shoots message. maybe use some wires for fake levitation. you know, for the true believers.
Washington state isn't seeing any "glimmers" yet:http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/fourth_quarter_retail_sales_dr.html
But given that Obama is asking for tens of billions more $$ to pay for military & who knows what other operations in Iraq & Afghanistan (he voted against at least one of these funding measures while in Congress) he must think the US is doing great & so able to fund who knows how many more years of that "cakewalk" in Iraq and the quagmire that defeated the British Empire &, later, the Soviet Union's military, in Afghanistan.
Like Molli Ivins said, "Nothin' but good times ahead."
Obama asks quick congressional OK of new war money
same as the old boss....spare me the Change,/b>
Obama asks quick congressional OK of new war money
same as the old boss....spare me the Change,/b>
Obama asks quick congressional OK of new war money
same as the old boss....spare me the Change,/b>
Obama asks quick congressional OK of new war money
same as the old boss....spare me the Change,/b>
"All the glimmers is not hope."
uhhhh ....sorry
"I flicked the dems and repubs the bird in the voting booth last year...literally as well as with my vote "
If for either (R) or (D) you choose, it makes no difference, other that which rights you lose.
wascomat,
if you want to get technical, when a human being rises from the dead we call them a zombie. jeebus was a zombie. this means easter is zombie jeebus day.
.
Blackhalo (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 12:49pm.
"It works. "
In the short term. But in the end, banks still broke.
:: ::
More important than even 'broke banks': laid off workers. Until lay offs slow & hiring/rehiring exceeds RIFs nothing much really works. When GM goes POOF even if a 'controlled POOF'... there will be a huge wave of lay offs all across fly over. People out here think they have seen the worst - they have no idea what is about to hit them.
It is was and will be all about jobs.
Vote 3rd party next time, it is very satisfying. I flicked the dems and repubs the bird in the voting booth last year...literally as well as with my vote
If you think TPTB are counting votes accurately nowadays, you're a lot more trusting than me.
I can only think of two reasons he says this..
My money is on #2 and I'm just waiting for him to give a "you've never had it so good" speech
char wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 10:57am.
Economy recovers late 2009 or early 2010.
Railfax Report - North American Rail Freight Traffic Carloading Report
Major Commodity Groups
Current Week Vs. 2008
Total, Grain, Chemicals, Food, Forest, Metals, Coal, Autos, Intermodal
(20.0%), (30.3%), (17.8%), (17.6%), (26.5%), (51.2%), (8.3%), (43.8%), (16.1%)
Parens indicate negative figures. Yes indeed, -51.2% year on year metals haulage for last week. It's already Q2.
That's gonna be a heck of a recovery.
When depression is the expectation, I guess even a severe recession is a glimmer of hope. Given all the federal spending and Fed money printing hitting the system over the next year, I'd expect a few green shoots to appear. I'd also expect them to die when economic winter re-asserts itself in the second half of 2010.
Hard to see anything with your head up your a-s!
Its always darkest before the light. The U.S. is poised for economic victory!
Blackhalo (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:16am.
If for either (R) or (D) you choose, it makes no difference, other that which rights you lose.
It was hard (I had to split my ticket between Constitution and Green party) but I didn't vote for a single major party candidate in November.
Ya'll must be doing all right if all you want to do is bitch about Obama. Once you start scrambling for a job and food you won't want to bother. Of course you wont have Internet either probably.
Compared to this, the mere appearance of stupidity is beginning to look pretty good.
SEVENTEEN socialists in the House. Egads, traitors amongst us! Of course 17 isn't really nearly enough. If we had say, 100 or more, the nation would probably be in far better shape.
Glenn Thrush's Blog: Bachus says there's 17 'socialists' in House - POLITICO.com
The Treasury Department says the federal budget deficit soared to $192.3 billion in March, and is near $1 trillion just halfway through the budget year, as costs of the financial bailout and recession mount.
Last month's deficit, a record for March, was significantly higher than the $150 billion that economists expected.
- NY Times
I think he means 'glimmers' literally. Glimmer, 'to shine faintly or unsteadily, to appear indistinctly... '
glimmer - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
A lot of ambiguity there...
REBear - how is restrictions on H1B 'protectionist'? Protectionism is 'tariffs & quotas'... telling foreign workers they can't get subsidized US jobs is 'protectionism'? Man we have come a looooong way from what I used to think of as protectionism.
But hey - maybe foreigners are equally entitled to our bailouts by your book. Not by mine. By this logic Brazilian soybean farmers ought to be lobbying for US crop price supports too.
We might get protectionism out of this crisis - but this isn't it.
Wall street and hedge funds all feed on insider information to trade or manipulate. The results to the stress tests will be known by Monday and you will witness certain financial institutions tank. My other point is that the balance sheet, TARP money amounts and dividend slashing among all the other sundry financial telltales made the stress tests an exercise in political theater. Everyone knows who is in trouble and why. The govt just needed to manufacture proof that they were doing something about the banks and were justifie in keeping the money flowing to the FIRE industry.
One person can keep a secret. Many more than one involved in this farce.
"Vote 3rd party next time, it is very satisfying. I flicked the dems and repubs the bird in the voting booth last year...literally as well as with my vote"
Well you showed them, huh!?
"Until lay offs slow & hiring/rehiring exceeds RIFs nothing much really works."
Interestingly enough, the economy usually recovers "before" the net rehiring starts. That's why employment is a lagging indicator.
A glimmer of a hope of progress.
GM going poof will be bad for Michigan but good for whichever company takes their market share. GM will rise from the ashes, but probably not in Detroit...
You realize that song is about masturbation right? I guess it still makes sense in this context
"Hard to see anything with your head up your a-s! "
Thanks for the tip; I've always wondered about that;)
Y'all are right. He shoulda said, "you know what? We're f*&%ed! Totally and completely 'effed. Buy guns and gold. Build shelters. Pull all your money out of the banks and the markets and go to the 'effin mattresses because there's no solution to the problem."
That's the kind of honesty I want out of my President! Not this glimmers of hope bullshit!
saagua wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:24am.
SEVENTEEN socialists in the House. Egads, traitors amongst us!
He only got 8% of McCarthy's list of communists.
You have to understand it's brought on by the gay marriage issue. Someone reminded him that the Republican party had previously branded womens suffrage and child labor laws communist and they wanted to see if it still worked. Gotta keep those latter day suffragettes in their place.
No - in the short term the banks are broke. In the long term they will go back to making some real nice cash by skimming off the top of the real economy. You can count on it. That doesn't mean buy bank stock - some could go BK - but as a whole they will survive and go back to their rightful place as previledged parasites.
No need for a stress test. The market knew long ago that Citi was dead. $1.00 stock price and all.
No - in the short term the banks are broke. In the long term they will go back to making some real nice cash by skimming off the top of the real economy. You can count on it. That doesn't mean buy bank stock - some could go BK - but as a whole they will survive and go back to their rightful place as previledged parasites.
Interestingly enough, the economy usually recovers "before" the net rehiring starts. That's why employment is a lagging indicator.
Unemployment is a lagging indicator, but the rate of change of unemployment is either a leading or coincident indicator and it is still increasing rapidly.
Where will they be rehiring? I am not trying to be a smart ass. I just do not see where the jobs will come from in big enough numbers to take us back below 8%
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the market dives face first into the Kool-Aid...
No - in the short term the banks are broke. In the long term they will go back to making some real nice cash by skimming off the top of the real economy. You can count on it. That doesn't mean buy bank stock - some could go BK - but as a whole they will survive and go back to their rightful place as previledged parasites.
Which is a real good thing for an economy that's desperate for sustenance.
gab wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:31am.
That's the kind of honesty I want out of my President! Not this glimmers of hope bullshit!
What, a straw man argument kind of honesty?
Then why are the markets flat today? Hmm?
I imagine some people are dropping out of the system in higher and higher number after coming to the conclusion the harder they I work the less will be the return on their time. The PTB recognizing this are pulling out all the stops to maintain the appearance of status quo. The state is in a fight for survival. Most people want things to remain the same as they grew up with and will go along with whatever seems expedient. All logical bets are off. Open war on the "misanthropes".
I think it's time for Churchillian quote:
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
Unless of course GM and Chrysler go bellyup in which case a wave of layoffs and bankruptcies will sweep the nation like a plague of the most voracious locusts, devouring the few green shoots of the new growth and rendering as to a desert our hopes, our dreams and the fundamental strengths of our labors.
Sorry.. borrowing someone else's turn of hyperbola there
Everyone seems to be forgetting Ford isn't exactly on the up either !
.
Interestingly enough, the economy usually recovers "before" the net rehiring starts. That's why employment is a lagging indicator.
:: ::
Depends on how you define 'recover'... delta GDP turning 'positive' or overall GDP returning to previous high. If you define 'recovery' as the point where GDP stops falling - then 'yes' hiring lags that point. However that isn't really much of a tangible recovery. That is kind of like saying New Orleans is in recovery after the flood waters peaked and started receding... a lot different than water all gone, buildings being repaired and people returning. I think this recession is going to be severe enough that people will understand that employment doesn't lag a real recovery... it is coincidental.
BTW I would argue parts of the rust belt never fully recovered from the 70s and parts of rural flyover never fully recovered from 'farm crisis' in the 80s... I think the coastal bubbles will experience a similar 'recovery'.
RFFMC wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:06am.
What an arrogant jerk.
i dont think so...rather some one who has looked into the abyss
maybe the honorable thing to do would be for
the president , calmly, declaring that
the financial system is in total collapse
here at CR most of us can handle the truth
RFMC , can you handle the truth? can the general public?
YouTube - A Few Good Man "You Can't Handle the Truth"
Obama and Ben were out back smoking green shoots. Giggling the whole way to the bank.
nova (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009
"Where will they be rehiring ?"
Unemployment is a leading indicator for (one of) the next waves of consumer credit defaults, especially credit cards - which, IIRC were preferentially paid off while mortgage defaults rates first began to spike - as the most highly leveraged specuvestors were flushed out. Now the job and income loss are eating into the well intentioned but marginally resourced segment...next comes the FWO's (Formerly Well Off).
Uncharted territory, or we weren't making the charts we have today the last time this happened. Things are, indeed, different this time.
dryfly,
excellent metaphor
GM going poof will be bad for Michigan but good for whichever company takes their market share. GM will rise from the ashes, but probably not in Detroit...
It won't even be in North America. Ditto for all the supply chain jobs.
anon wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:37am.
Open war on the "misanthropes".
A poorly founded but entirely predictable policy for a bankrupt state.
Obama would make a terrific sales manager at a bank. When he speaks, he uses lots of happy and catchy words but says nothing of actual substance.
"next comes the FWO's (Formerly Well Off)."
Well, I doubt they were, REALLY, well off. They may have thought they were, but the actual well off are also, well connected and will come out just fine. Barring, torches and pitchforks of course.
I am pleased to see the new post system is up and working. I gave up after the demise of haloscan. There is no sign of recovery out in the Northern Rockies. Layoffs just starting to bite. The stimulus will give us a few months of meth rush activity but will fade by the first of the year. Housing dead and business down.. We really do not need cheer leader B.S. from Washington. We need realistic appraisals and plans for long term solutions.
dryfly,
"GM will rise from the ashes, but probably not in Detroit...
It won't even be in North America. Ditto for all the supply chain jobs."
The Indians and Japanese left a decent chunk of the ruins of British Lehland jobs in England...kinda....
Nostrovia,
If Obama is seeing "glimmers" now - how black is it - that he really is seeing? I think the man knows what Bush voiced "This sucker is going down." He will spend and do everything to avoid that. He has to, because I think he is that kind of man. Plus, he knows how much the haters are waiting to come out of the woods and feed on his failure. Even if it is the failure of this country that in reality they are feeding on.
Oh, and it is going down
If the unemployment rate is 9.5% by the fall (not hard since we're at 8.5% already), its going to be a super ugly Christmas. It will make 2008's Christmas seem like boomtimes.
Death is a lagging indicator.
Layoffs are always a sign of progress. They're the solution, not the problem.
In the short term. But in the end, banks still broke.
define broke. Just add some zeros here and there.
Parens indicate negative figures. Yes indeed, -51.2% year on year metals haulage for last week. It's already Q2.
TLM:
Be careful of those parens. FINRA has issued an official notice that negative return numbers must be designated by minus signs, not parens. FINRA believes that the average American investor might not understand that performance numbers in parens are negative (i.e., BAD).
Now that FINRA has solved this critical performance advertising issue, they will move on to address the minor problem of brokers offloading CDOs, CDOs-squared, derivatives, and other suitable assets on the investing public, small pension funds, and unsophisticated local governments.
No one disagrees with broad, happy phrases:
We must rebuild.
We must be inclusive.
We must be fair.
We must support our troops.
We must support education.
blah blah blah
Being obtuse to the point of meaninglessness is not new. Weasel politicians have been doing it for a long time.
"build bridge to the future".
"morning again in america"
Costa Rica lookin' better every day! Hate the Prez couldn't even spare a moment to go visit Normandy. Hate to piss off ex rogue nations as well as current ones.....Give me a f'in break! Plus he bent over in the wrong direction for the Saudi King. Should have bent over and gave him free access to directly screw us,,,,,
saagua thanks for the link
Rep. Spencer Bachus, the top Republican on the Financial Services Committee, told a hometown crowd in Alabama today he believes there are several, (17), socialists in the House. snip... and he said he is worried that he is being steered too far (to the left) by the Congress: "Some of the men and women I work with in Congress are socialists." according to the Birmingham News:
my God those damned socialist...17 of em !... dag gummitt overpowering the other 418 uv us God fearin loyal 'mericans
if ya let em get outta control well who knows might happen next
5 day work week...weekends...paid sick leave
parks, roads ,open to the public
social security, government fire fighters and police and then even public education
and then them socialists will even want to let blacks and women vote
it all started with those two notorious socialist (who marks and lennin?) no
Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt
Nassim Taleb's rules for a more resilient financial system:.
Would be nice if even a few of these were implemented...
April 10 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC had ratings cut on some of their debt by Standard & Poor’s as the automakers face government deadlines to restructure or file for bankruptcy.
GM’s $4.5 billion senior secured revolving credit facility was reduced to CCC- from CCC, or nine grades below investment quality, S&P said today in a statement. S&P dropped its recovery rating to 2 from 1, saying lenders may recoup 70 percent to 90 percent in a default by Detroit-based GM.
This is how the whole thing has gone. Periods of optimism in between reality checks.
He must be talking about Hope Arkansas
He must be talking about Hope Arkansas
Amazing amount of activity by Canadian Mining Companies looking at old gold claims. Someone thinks gold has a future or the Canadians are readying another onslaught of penny stock fraud. Could go either way.
I did not know there is any rating left to be cut with GM & Chrysler.
How timely.
The Indians and Japanese left a decent chunk of the ruins of British Lehland jobs in England...kinda....
They kept the service mechanics and repo men in place.
I got an email alert from SME yesterday that all is well in automotive - in China - they are now the worlds #1 car market NOT the US. It might have been glossed over in our MSM but believe me that detail was not missed by the folks planing strategy in Toyota City... or in Stuttgart, etc.
This by itself is NOT a terrible thing but folks have to know - the US auto gravy train is gone - left the station - it isn't coming back in anything resembling what it was.
Lol. What do you cut Chrysler's rating to anyway- dogshit?
Oh you silly little people, don't you know the Federal Reserve is OMNIPOTENT!
Give me the power to print the money and charge interest on it. I'll give every penny of interest I make back to the government that gives me the power to print it, making it look like I'm on the up and up.
In the background I'll choose(buy) all your leaders and have them pass all the laws that work in my favor and I couldn't give a shit what happens to the little people that gave me that power who rightfully had it in the first place.
As your world central banking overlord I will do my best to keep you servants on the hamster wheel of life as best I can because that's how I derive and usurp the power for myself. I love my Omnipotence.
NorkaWest (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:50am.
TLM:
Be careful of those parens. FINRA has issued an official notice that negative return numbers must be designated by minus signs, not parens. FINRA believes that the average American investor might not understand that performance numbers in parens are negative (i.e., BAD).
"By the time the law showed up, I was long gone... but the sheriff didn't let me down. He investigated the whole thing... then arrested the hooker."
--Last Man Standing
Yancey Ward wrote
"Lol. What do you cut Chrysler's rating to anyway- dogshit?'
Is there a rating for "Purchasers need to see psychological help." ?
This by itself is NOT a terrible thing but folks have to know - the US auto gravy train is gone - left the station - it isn't coming back in anything resembling what it was.
Those towns, you know the ones near the Nissan plant, the Toyota plant - they ain't coming back either. Good bye Saturn.
You go downwind of most factorys in the US and you can smell that smell. Nice clean air. Smells just like shutdowns
dryfly,
But hey - maybe foreigners are equally entitled to our bailouts by your book. Not by mine.
I'm not saying whatever is happening is bad. All i'm trying to say is that the brotherly love shown at the g-20 submit was a hog wash.
At the G20 there was uproar over French 'protectionism' because France was moving 400 jobs from Slovenia to France.
The European Commission said it would seek urgent clarification.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Renault jobs row rocks EU summit
Now we have 2000 jobs coming back to the US. Will the G20 ask for an urgent clarification?
Official Hope = Wall Streeters get their bonuses.
.
Those towns, you know the ones near the Nissan plant, the Toyota plant - they ain't coming back either. Good bye Saturn.
You go downwind of most factorys in the US and you can smell that smell. Nice clean air. Smells just like shutdowns
.
Maybe the nice folks in Alabama & Tennessee can learn to flip condos - worked out well for Cali, Florida & Las Vegas.
Michael,
Was anyone outside your window last night? Real late?
Minimum wage or Master degrees - nothing in the middle.
Again REBear - insisting US subsidized jobs be done by US citizens ISN'T protectionism. You will know protectionism when you see it - it won't be back door or 'hidden'.
I understand the angst some have about protectionism... but this isn't it. Not yet. Not even close.
Just sayin'...
excellent point- if this was Bush every "comic" would be laughing at what a rube he is and how "out of touch with reality" he is.
But with King O, it is just more "hope and worthless change"
Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:00am.
"We feel confident that as we deal with problems in the banking system that we're also fixing the non-banking sector when it comes to auto and credit card loans," Obama added.
He still doesn't get it. More debt is not the solution to too much debt.
And he thinks that "auto and credit card loans" are the "non-banking sector".
money man wrote 1151
"Hate the Prez couldn't even spare a moment to go visit Normandy"
how about you set the honesty example you claim you want so badly from the prez
fess up , obama could visit every major WWII battlefield in france, germany and italy
and you would not be satisfied
my guess is you would say he's just pandering or putting on a show
(anyone remember reagan visiting bitberg and talking about how he, reagan fought in WWII...huh?)
.
Minimum wage or Master degrees - nothing in the middle.
So what is the minimum wage for a masters degree?
[/snark]
Nova,
Do you believe it? I've been trying to post that comment on Huffington Post, tried 3 times so far and they won't let it go through.
the Libs are kings of the "strawman argument". Pay attention to EVERYTHING that they say-
it is always "well we have to spend at least 17 trillion dollars to save us, not like the evil republicans who want to DO NOTHING and leave you in poverty!!" King O is the master of putting up false straw men to then knock down..
Willem Buiter's Wednesday post is pretty comprehensive as to where we actually stand at present and what the prospects are.
Probably linked here before - worth a look if you haven't read. It's a broader view than we generally indulge in here.
FT.com | Willem Buiter's Maverecon | The green shoots are weeds growing through the rubble in the ruins of the global economy
new thread
[swamp otis (member) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 11:01am.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!! ]
LOL, exactly the thought that came to mind when I read the post. You beat me to it.
ps i have written to the prez and said period, that he has caved to the wall street bankstas that got us in this mess and must change course
i have also written the same to 9th congressional district congressman adam smith (no pun intended) who was obamas state campaign chair)
i agree with krugman re the bank bailout, and i believe tarp is outrageous and wrong
"Costa Rica lookin' better every day!"
It'd have to look a whole lot better before I'd move there. Nice place to lie on the beach and drink, but the infrastructure sucks, the food is marginal, and everything they don't make there costs as much as here. One plus -- no need for Xtreme Sports if you're an adrenalin junkie. Just drive the highway from Puntarenas to San Jose once a week. At night. In the rain. Just you and all those bloody trucks on a two-lane road with no centerline and a steep grade. Yowza.
I'm not putting the place down. They do a lot with what they've got. But when you're talking second-world country, Costa Rica is more what you're talking than America. We have some second-world aspects, because we're Puritans and think people should suffer when they have misfortunes (God planned it that way, so they probably deserved it). But we'd have an awfully long way to fall before we were Costa Rica.
You admitted you donated money to Obama out of loathing of conservative republicans. Wow, astonishing.
Well then, thanks for being honest, but you deserve whatever comes as a result of donating for such reasons.
Obama isn't liberal. "Liberals" aren't really liberal anymore...you're all just a bunch of control freak nanny statists who loath everything that doesn't fit into your sterile little uptight lifestyles.
The green shoots are weeds growing through the rubble in the ruins of the global economy
For burnside:
A few years ago when we were all wondering if we were in recession, going into recession or still farting through silk I used to ask CR if it 'looked like a recession' out his way in Cali... I told him [others here] it didn't look like one to me - not yet. He said 'no' back then too.
Others would then ask so what does a recession look like to you 'older guys'... I told them 'tumble weeds in parking lots'. That was my recollection of the farm crisis 'non-recession' I experienced up front and friendly. I would call on factories and half the plants in the rural industrial parks I passed through were abandoned for YEARS on end with tumble weed growing up through the rubble of what was once well maintained parking lots. Same with the retail establishments... even if still open & operating their budgets were so small they didn't allocate 'labor' to spray Round Up on the farther flung sections of parking lot... and not enough customer traffic to wear the tumble weeds down... only the areas near the door were weed free and that from the limited traffic the stores still got.
So when Buiter says the current 'recovery' is just weeds growing through rubble tells me the man knows & recognizes a recession when he sees one.
BTW - I'll be looking for tumble weeds this summer - my number one indicator things are getting worse. And from what I can tell it isn't a lagging indicator either - concurrent & coincidental all the way. Well - except for seasonal 'adjustment'... they haven't sprouted up here on the northern plains just yet.
Hey how is NYC doing with its layoffs? Unions gotta be cooperating on that too, just like GM,
Nova needs to add tumbleweeds to his opus.
Wow.
Obama's comments are a real Rorschach test, aren't they?
Everyone pretty much reads what they want into it. ....
If you are very pessimistic and you hate Obama, then you think he's a pathetic Pollyanna.
If you are very pessimistic and you love Obama, then you think he's doing the wise thing politically by bucking up people's spirits.
If you are optimistic, then you think Obama just declared the recession over and proclaimed prosperity for all time.
Read it again. Slowly. With your mind open. "glimmers" means faint and fleeting. "Hope" means stop walling in your self pity.
"Stressed" means buckle up and hold on.
I liked O and I'm bewildered.
We are approaching the event horizon.
He has to say something. It can't be tooo bad.
Hence, it is meaningless.
Obama is a plant, bought and paid for Bank shill. Period. End of story.
Deep recessions are a convenient way to crush labor and drive down living standards (even lower) for 80% of the populace. Standard of living will be measured relative to that in China. The 2 probably won't cross paths, but approach each other assymptotically as we suffer declines and they stumble...
If BS were green this lying little eel would be an 18 hole golf course. Is there anything about which he hasn't vascillated or turned tail?
hey cr, we are seeing glimmers of hope. what does the man known as obamanation talking about ?
Well my off the cuff comment seems to have generated a tribute handle.
Squeeze me,
I was referring to property as in "land". I fully support individual ownership of personal hygiene products, undergarments, and printing presses (although I would make the argument that "printing presses" in the USA are largely controlled by oligarchs). I happen to believe that a functioning society owes its citizens certain human rights: shelter (e.g. housing), sustenance, access to education, access to medical care, due process, freedom of expression etc. Owning property is an economic right not a human right. In fact, one could argue that land ownership is monopolistic and anti-free market. For example, leases (e.g. 99 year leases) are another widely used way to allocate land without perpetuating an entrenched rent-seeking elite.
"Maybe the nice folks in Alabama & Tennessee can learn to flip condos - worked out well for Cali, Florida & Las Vegas. "
So.....you think with GM and Xler going tits up, there still won't be any demand for foreign cars assembled in the deep South? I'd have a different take on that. I'd suggest that that's where the car industry will be in 5-10 years, unless the unions move in, and then it'll be somewhere else. Vancouver?
" 8 ball wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 4:09pm.
hey cr, we are seeing glimmers of hope. "
The future is uncertain......
Sure Pres. O can say that progress is being made. He's using the banks as fronts for manipulating the stock market, everyone piles in as the market goes up on back room deals using dark pools to buy each other's stocks, driving the indexes (falsely) higher.
If unemployment is suggested to climb to 9.8% by mid 2010, how is there to be progress? or will those numbers be skewed also for the good of the President's image?
I'm so disgusted by the ineptitude and lack of gravitas in this administration regarding anything they propose. Its like they don't care about the consequences, the trade offs for any of the President's decisions.
So when he says he sees 'progress', I think he's talking BS.
"Anyone who is doing anything sensible right now is either losing money or is out of the market entirely." These are the words of a quant trader, who is seeing something scary in the capital markets.
Anyone else seeing this?
CR?
"After a caller said he didn't see anybody spending less money than usual, Steele replied: "I've heard a number of people say that across the country. [LAUGHTER] The malls are just as packed on Saturday. [LAUGHTER]"
That's Michael Steele, current head of the Republican party.
That's even better than "glimmers of hope." That's just like no slowdown at all! And he should know better than the President who's isolated in the WH.
It is absolutely beyond me how anyone can take this guy seriously.
It isn't THIS president who scares me.
It is the one coming (up).
Remember the lessons we should have learned from Weimar.
GoinSouth writes:"I aologize for being such an idiot."
No apology necessary. You're in good company.
You can bash the prez all you like. (Everyone including me likes to do it.) However it is really hard to ignore the string of positive news yesterday...
Thursday's String of Positives Leads Wall Street To Good Friday
If I were in the oval office, I'd point to those glimmer too.
Where will they be rehiring? I am not trying to be a smart ass. I just do not see where the jobs will come from in big enough numbers to take us back below 8%
Field hands?
The negativity and heartlessness here blows my mind. If you were Prez, what would you do? I'd shudder to think. What do you expect from one man? He has to deal with a recalcitrant opposition in Congress, and no help at all from about half the population, all of whom wish him ill, or worse. Imagine the alternative, if you will. Hard line, free market, boot-strap fundamentalism. That old-time religion. You're on your own, Bub. From the sound of many of the commenters here, that would be a welcome alternative. Well, imagine yourself needing a helping hand, especially if you are a child, or elderly, or you lost your job, or there was a death in your family, hopefully not ill-timed, or any of the many set-backs that occur to all of us during the course of a lifetime. To whom would you turn for help, especially if you had no family, or anyone who gave a s#it about you at all? Would you just politely roll over and die? Or would you turn to crime? Or would you perhaps turn to the State, of which you are a citizen, and maybe expect a helping hand? .... Fu*k your rebuttals. You'd bitch no matter what. All you complainers will come to the end of your rope someday, I guarantee it, and the reality is you will be well taken care of by the more positive members of our society, and perhaps you might even be grateful for their assistance, though it won't be expected of you. Whatever. Until you grasp what life on this planet means, and is, (admittedly, in my mind, an evolutionary accident, for which I am intensly grateful) and how all life is interdependent, and basically dependent on what you are able to contribute to it, you will be a drag on the rest of us, who are trying to make life here on earth sustainable for everyone, now and in the future. Too hyperbolic? KMA. In the meantime, take whatever advantage you can, for all the good it'll do you. Joke's on you.
Janzen again has it correct:
Debt Deflation Bear Market: First Bounce - Eric Janszen - iTulip.com
"In a recession, a recovery in personal consumption, incomes, and retail sales signals the start of recovery. The virtuous cycle of credit growth--and its corollary, debt growth—combine with rising incomes as the rate of unemployment growth slows. Credit expansion leads the economy out of the cycle, followed by incomes. That is what many stock market participants think they are seeing now, as previous experience has trained them to see. But they are wrong."
"Debt deflation cannot be stopped by government credit expansion because that effort only increases debt levels that are already excessive as a result of decades of previous interventions to re-start the already over-indebted economy. As the economy shrinks, there is even less income available to repay debt, and a vicious cycle sets in. The wheel not only stops, it begins to run backwards and pumps money out of the economy. "
"The negativity and heartlessness here blows my mind. If you were Prez, what would you do? "
It is not heartlessness...it is an understanding of REALITY. The only solution to this disaster was to avoid it. What Bush's economic team...and now Obama's economic team, have been proposing, essentially amounts to treating a gunshot wound to the head with bloodletting and leaches. We are not heartless for pointing out that they are fools, as, it appears, are you.
Once you have been shot in the head...there really is not much that can be done for you. GET IT? Those of us that are so critical of Obama are probably the same people who 10 years ago warned our family that the US economy was on a path the destruction...but we were dismissed as chicken littles. Well guess what...we were right all along, and we are stil right.
What is the US heading for? A sudden stop balance of payments crisis like Korea or Argentina. Nothing can be done to stop it. Government will only make it worse by subverting liberty, personal responsibility, rule of law, etc.
It's been a while since I read the comment threads here.
Please tell me this place isn't turning into yet another repository of know-nothing political fighting.
I can read about the "Libs" and for that matter the evil conservatives in every moronic newspaper comment stream on the internet.
Please sweet baby Jesus, don't let this be happening here.
Is there a secret place where most of the good posters are putting their comments?
BrantW - what makes you think we are anything like Korea or Argentina? What do you think will happen? Subverting liberty? Give me a break. What "liberties" are you refering to? Personal responsibility? Who asks you to relinquish "personal responsibility"? And "rule of law"? We are now about to witness more "rule of law" than we've seen in quite a while, and I don't mean for just "the little guy". So get a grip on your hysteria, and calm down. You talk like your concerns are all that matters, and to you, perhaps that's true. But it's a big world, so try to expand your consience to include more than just yourself.
sp -conscience-
Muffintop - your desire for a utopian, politics-free zone is almost childishly refreshing in its simplicity. If you ever find such a place, please keep it to yourself. I can't imagine anything more boring, besides pure economics, in itself, unless it is religion. Out of curiosity, is there any aspect of your daily life that doesn't involve politics in one way or another, from every dollar you spend, to where you live, to what you eat, and with whom you associate, to your mode of transportation? Do you not realize that everything you do is political in one way or another? To claim apolitical purity is, in a word, disingenuous, and to wish to keep an economics blog, in particular, politics-free, well, good luck with that.
lower home prices = progress
unaffordable housing = social disaster
i see progress every day i look at zillow
C'mon guys,
We gotta be more optimistic.
Give the big O a chance to implement his 'Hope and Change'
And if it still doesn't work.................................................................. during his first term,
How about this ?
4 more years
4 more years
4 more years
It may sound like this then "No Hope and begging for small change'
Its OK.
We don't need jobs.
We got Hope and Change.
Thats a gonna put food on our tables.
And if you can't afford to buy it, just hope for it.
It might change into bird crap
"BrantW - what makes you think we are anything like Korea or Argentina? What do you think will happen? Subverting liberty? Give me a break. What "liberties" are you refering to? Personal responsibility? Who asks you to relinquish "personal responsibility"? And "rule of law"? We are now about to witness more "rule of law" than we've seen in quite a while, and I don't mean for just "the little guy". So get a grip on your hysteria, and calm down. You talk like your concerns are all that matters, and to you, perhaps that's true. But it's a big world, so try to expand your consience to include more than just yourself. " - Anonymous? wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 9:34pm.
Do you even know what a balance of payments crisis is? Do you understand that I mentioned Argentina and Korea because they are the most recent examples of BOP crisis? Want to see where we are headed...go read about where they have been. The downside...at least compared to South Korea, we are weak, lazy and spoiled. When the Korean currency needed to be saved, Korean citizens scrounged up a $billion + in jewelry, gold, etc...and GAVE it to their government. Do you really expect that to happen in the US? Hell no. We will tear each other apart before we will pull together.
Personal liberties? Open your eyes. Have you had TSA personnel steal things from your bags when you travel? Have you had bank personnel question you when you want to withdraw your own money. Have you been hassled by bureucrats because you were unlucky enough to be the one they chose to f*** with. Have you had to defend yourself against baseless lawsuits. All these are attacks on your liberty.
Personal Responsibility? There is none anymore. We now reward failure. Go read Atlas Shrugged. There is no personal responsiblity, and the government promotes this new order.
Rule of Law? The government regularly violates the laws it passed. It regularly give a pass to criminals that have broken the law because they are part of the elite..and payed for the campaigns of the politicians (both sides).
Obama is a moron. He talks out of both ends to suit his political means... and that is by no means economic.