Ken (CR Companion fame) on Comments
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Mon, 03/02/2009 - 3:15pm (235 comments)
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Ken,
You should discuss such things with my code janitor, as I have big plans that I will force him to implement, and perhaps if we join forces, we can conquer the galaxy!
Stop by the irc channel sometime and /msg briwerk or brihome.
Skip teh avatars. Useless.
If you really want to do this, I suggest making it an open source project. Host it at SourceForge or the like, and make it designed for CR but not specific to CR. Others out there might like to contribute to a comment system that does not suck.
Also, keep "simple" at the top of the list, which is somewhat at odds with even having a long list.
I volunteer to contribute snark and maybe some code.
Definitely. Would do it open source. And would not make it specific.
I agree with the sourceforge recommendation and I'd definitely be willing to hack out a bit to contribute.
Love it, except the moderator. I assume multiple anonymous identities would still be impostor-proof.
I would be of no technical help but would supply some non-Ponzi financing.
Yes, handles would have to be unique. No worse crime in my book.
BTW, CR has offered to host this.
Well, maybe there are (worse crimes).
CRVIX and other stats
LOL!
Seriously, "edit" must retain previous comments. I cannot count the times I've seen posts here that subsequently denied the recorded past.
That's why I mentioned the five minute rule. Versioning... not a bad alternative.
aysayer here...
Agree this is like a salon... Nemo = Normmmmmm
Hey, I resemble that remark.
A simpletext back and forth with no necessary login seems the best.
The big problem with no login is spoofing. We had a bout of that some time back that was a real pain. What are your concerns? Privacy, convenience?
Simple is key, and can't be sacrificed. But it's so nice to be able to see what someone was responding to.
The big problem with no login is spoofing. We had a bout of that some time back that was a real pain. What are your concerns? Privacy, convenience?
I've been tossing around an idea for a back-end system for a long time (well before haloscan bit the dust) and my thought was to allow people to reserve a user name by registering. Login-free posting would still be allowed, but it would reject any user name that was previously registered. You could even take it a step further and allow a login-free user to reserve a name for that particular thread based on IP address (perhaps a checkbox option to the user). Or even give them a 1-day password so they could continue posting in a thread when they got home from the office. Etc.
I don't like creating logins for tons of sites because then I have to remember the passwords for a bunch of sites. Alternatively, I could use the same login for all the sites I visit, but if one of them is compromised then there goes my password to potentially a bunch of sites - with simple data-mining techniques it can be easy to identify a person across many sites. And what if I used that password and email address at an e-commerce site that keeps my credit card info? Or if I happened to choose the same password I use for my email?
Anyway, I am game for helping out on the back-end. I personally think that a commenting system would benefit more by using an object-oriented database style rather than the relational style (like MySQL) for storing comments. I have seen a number of blogs that end up wasting a lot of their CPU quota on a ton of queries just to produce a page of comments. A hybrid approach would get you a lot more blogging capability on one server.
How would not allowing someone to register with the name stop people from spoofing? At best you can identify people with cookies, but that isn't portable across machines. You can't identify people with IP addresses because the vast majority of people have dynamic IPs.
"I personally think that a commenting system would benefit more by using an object-oriented database style rather than the relational style (like MySQL) for storing comments."
What do you mean? Are you referring to object databases? There aren't many of these and the ones that do exist are written for Java/.NET. But a comment system has a lot of relational data so why would these be more efficient?
future lawyer and ex-perl/postgres developer...
I remain astonished that there is no existing, easily customizable software which could do this. There are tons of blogs. Nobody here can point to a particular blog and say "yes, that's what we need"?
Can Sebastian be the Chief Economist?
the eurotrib site uses scoop
404 - Not Found
open source ...
be glad to help
Will take a look at scoop, thanks!
Scoop provides real time threaded updating.
Great that you're volunteering to take this on.
CR: Note that the kind of comment system that CR commenters want isn't necessarily the same kind of system that CR readers want. Haloscan comments always devolve to chatrooms as soon as a blog passes a threshold size. Viz. Atrios.
let's play a game:
"How many markets will suspend trading tomorrow?"
I say at least one...
Nemo - If it is open source how the heck can we make this an IPO for a single product company?
Hey it's 1997, remember? Should be no problem.
Redhat!
This is simple-- consider using the Drupal CMS framework. My company develops websites using this framework and it would clearly handle 99% of your needs plus give you better control over things like advertising and other site monetization priorities..
Drupal (and the apachesolr module) is what I've been playing with for a prototype. It's great.
I've done some work with Drupal as well, be glad to help. Probalbly have LOTS of free time soon
I have a son who is an aspiring IT geek - now in retail... I could volunteer him too... though anything he develops tends to look like World of Warcraft.
Great! We'll just keep him away from the design.
The Agonist runs on Drupal - browse over there if you'd like an example installation.
The Agonist? What a great site. Haven't been there since the Iraq war though. What a game changer that was. Very CR like.
BTW, some other drupal sites: theonion.com, change.gov, drupal.org (300k devs, they claim), sony BMG, fastcompany.com.
They've definitely got some traction now. And as you can see, that's where I lean at this point, even though I really don't like php.
Maybe Michael Steele can be the moderator...he will have lots of time real soon.
that would so be off the hook
Coder here... Mostly in "real" languages (C/C++/Objective C, Java). I'd be interested in helping out. I'm sort of a utility player when it comes to making computers do things. Not a deep specialist in any one thing.
I'm probably the only person who uses the lynx browser on OpenBSD (sometimes--- doing this on Windoze), but it would be nice if I could see comments using that minimalist tool. I have the uneasy feeling that your list of desirable things contains items that are incompatible, but
other people know much more than I do.
Does this look better?
I am good at snark. Any needs?
You mean I have to give up my newly made avatar? Sniff.
some of the haloscan limitations that led to the previous fireside atmosphere can be codified into rules of moderation like no edit, no delete. there is a huge opportunity here to to create a "game of conversation" or conversational game.
what sort of rules would that game have?
what rules would make playing here more fun?
can drinking game rules be adapted to cr dialogs?
yes
10 year java guy (its what i do for money)...when i dont have the man breathing down my neck, its the lamp stack, ruby on rails, etc etc etc
lemme know...i am not long on time, but would be happy to pitch in, esp if the development was assigned by feature etc
FWIW, i have been enjoying the IRC channel...there are some very appealing aspects to IRC, IMO
can you give us a summary of what the CR irc channel is...? where etc?
irc.realize.org:9996
calculatedrisk
Must have: SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE
No extra "features" NO GRAPHICS, light weight, any advanced features appear on moderation backend ONLY.
Ken Cooper: Your answer to login spoofing is TRIPCODES.
Tripcode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Works great on 4chan.
Interesting. Might be worthwhile. But what, again is your concern? Privacy, convenience, or ?
There are other benefits to login. Like a screen tailored to you.
Seems worthwhile. I'll help with interface design and user testing. I'm more a wire frames and work flow than straight art person, but I'm better than having some coder gum up the look ;>
braaaaiins!
yo know, you should launch a start - up : CR financial forum or something.
damn, there might be a number of people willing to be seed investors ....
"...CalculatedRisk, which is really more a real time salon than a blog with semi-static comments. "
timeliness trumps taxonomy
It would be nice the wheel would not have to reinvented. Maybe you all can find one which is the right size...and slap a whitewall on it.
There are frameworks out there (like drupal) that will take us a long part of the way. But even they don't address the real time thing well. This needs to combine the strengths of a blog and a chat channel, since sometimes it's hard to keep up with the chat, and you'd still like to get the highlights.
I should clarify - frameworks like drupal can be extended to meet our needs. I'm not suggesting we'd write this from scratch. This is 2009.
"hm, guys you should try going start up with it. There will be plenty of willing seed investors, just sayin."
CRbot is interested. Tell me more.
Nemo - 51% goes to Tanta Foundation
If you are interested in volunteering, CR has offered to forward emails to me. You can also send me email through the crcompanion blog (http://crcompanion.blogspot.com).
What happens if the worlds biggest bank says it is no longer lending in the United States? We saw today...
Maybe deficits and fiscal responsiblity do matter?
slashcode is one of the oldest stablest cade bases out there. it does everything you want and more. It has a large active developer comunity and it is free:
Slashcode: Slash Open Source Project
"We have lost control," said Hale, quoting Bernanke. "We cannot stabilize the dollar. We cannot control commodity prices."
Chicago Tribune September 17, 2008
i've played with slashcode a long time ago.
i liked it
hey ken-
i was thinking about slashcode as well...ever looked at it?
rock solid, can handle load, has a rating system so users can filter the noise etc
Slash is the first thing I thought of also. I also thought about how all web fora are pale imitations of Usenet, but that is just the old grouch in me slipping out.
(the recent Louis CK Everything’s Amazing, Nobody’s Happy bit comes to mind)
Hey I posted that!
In all seriousness I'd love to help but I stopped playing with computers around the time that 12 year olds could code html better than me...
...............................
Ken thanks for all the hardwork.
Sorry, forgot the hat tip!
o worries i was just excited someone read my post!
......................
someone mentioned below that they would be willing to trouble shoot... I can do that or test or what ever. I'm not so good with computers any more that you want me dealing with code tho!
Here to help. I emailed you the issue I was having with cutting and pasting from tab to tab so you have my email. I'll send you a follow up email too! Cheers!
2nd Rob Dawg on the edit. Perhaps some exceptions by special permission with public apology.
I would love to help. Proficient in C#, PHP, Javascript, MySQL, HTML and CSS here. I currently have a lot of free-time, as well.
HTML? Got a friend looking for a person to build a blind backend website in HTML (not my verbage and dont know what the hech they meant, but there you have it)
How about interface with nntp? So we can use good ol' newsreader and thread will work beautifully.
NNTP... people still use that?
I forgot to mention RSS, of course.
NNTP... oh yes...people still use it
tp with a good newsreader could work - except that I'm not sure that there are any good free newsreaders for Windows. Pan is available, once you install Gtk2, but I haven't been able to test. Trying to get people to use a whole different program is probably not practical.
(If the news server could be fooled into considering each post a new group and thread within those topics, with a good newsreader (which highlights threads with unread comments and can hide read threads and all that other good stuff) it could be pretty tasty.)
Google Groups might be a backup client if you do the nntp thing.
I can't imagine NNTP as the primary mechanism. But we could see about accommodating it.
How about NNTP as the back end? Web front end would be one option, "raw" with a newsreader would be another.
I'm basically No-Tech...But I follow instructions well and have a bit of time...Perhaps testing or something...
(What is a CRCompanion anyway???)
Before going crazy with a big new app, CR should see if he can have a custom CSS file for the comments from his site. A better layout would resolve a lot of objections.
But if a new app is needed, Scoop (or at least the DailyKos implementation of it) has nearly everything you want, including real-time insertion of new comments into threads without page refresh (Ajax-based, I believe).
is Dkos' comments system public? I was under the impression that was proprietary. if that's public I definitely want to go swipe it for some other projects.
The DKos tech seems to be blogging here: Time to Pull the Plug
I've been having thoughts along these lines too - would be happy to help.
On the other hand, HALOSCAN is back up and running, and worked perfectly well. We could always continue to use that.
I could vote for that, especially if folks still wanted to work on a back up plan for when it breaks again.
At least temporarily until a new system is developed.
How do I make my 4-5 points off this?
A feature I might like is a search w/ a pull down time choice: Eg. search CA choose 3 days (of comment threds)
The solr framework offers an interesting form of search, called faceted search. You've probably seen it on sites like amazon. You type in a keyword, and it presents you with grouped options, like
Today (5 results)
Yesterday (3 results)
Last week (200 results)
or
mp (5 results)
Jas (300 results)
dryfly (10 results)
You can then click on those to see slices of the results the way you want. It's a pretty nifty way to search.
If we are going to allow multiple handles (which I encourage), then the search/grouping function should be limited to instances of the same handle only, and not bring up all the posts by a registered user. Otherwise, what is the point of switching handles if the rest of your aliases are a click or two away? Granted, there is a risk of sock puppets, but as far as I can tell, folks have used multiple handles to distinguish between their serious comments and the ones intended as humor, and not for the sake of reinforcing their own view or ganging up on another poster.
Interesting point. It might be worth allowing people to claim and aggregate multiple old handles though - sometimes people change their handle as their mood/circumstance changes, not as a way of maintaining multiple personalities. I'm thinking about Misean, or Otis, or all the various people who took on Comrade.
People can always still sock puppet with different identities; can't be helped. Haven't seen too much abuse like that anyway.
P.S. I love the pig. In fact fact I wouldn't mind paying royalties for a clip of Pink Floyd's work to alert to new posts.
Did you see the pig in the decline of commercial construction? I swear it was there!
................
That was "Spiny Norman" looking for Dimsdale.
just for you Dawg... here's a vid did a few months back...
YouTube - TARP Piggies visits Obama's Larry Summers( Smalley Biggs) music: Pink Floyd
did see the Floyd
on the Pigs tour way back in the day
CRbot has the answer. You humans need only pledge eternal loyalty to me, and I will lead you to blog comment bliss!
But since you all are ignoring me. I think you're on your own.
Silicon is hard to get close to. Unless you're Maria Bartiromo.
Maybe I'll feel more comfortable talking to your code janitor instead.
"Silicon is hard to get close to. Unless you're Maria Bartiromo." ... gods die hard; even Ken's not impervious to the short, brutish world we're devolving to.
Click on my name.
You can see my comments here as well as the comments on my blog.
Mish
I just did. I found a post that argued for sticking with js-kit. I clicked on the link associated with it to see where it came from. It showed me this page. I couldn't find the post.
Here's its text:
Js-Kit has to various degrees
Open-ID
Threading
Registration
Multiple Moderators (I am using this now and it works well)
Ratings
The performance problems are due to growing pains but those are being addressed. They are going to Amazon Cloud on demand in addition to their own computers in case Amazon goes down.
There is a way to send private messages from person to person (it is weak now because there is no notification but the construct is already in place)
There is a feature to see all the comments a person left by clicking on that person's name regardless of what blog those comments were made on. You can see that right now by clicking on any name in my comment window.
They are working on interfaces to Twitter and Facebook but I do not know what those interfaces are exactly.
In other words almost if not everything that is being asked for Js-Kit either has to some degree or is being worked on.
I get a strong sense that people simply resist any change and most simply do not like the visual difference from the way Haloscan looked.
I do know that JS-Kit is very much trying NOT to reinvent the wheel when it comes to Open-Id etc.
Finally I see no sense in attempting to develop such a thing from scratch working out all the bugs all over again.
Even if someone does, how fast will it be, where will it reside, can it support ads (something important to me and CR), will it have cloud capability to support spikes?
Who backs this stuff up and who pays for it?
I see a lot of "must haves" that may not be so easy to implement and I see other must have like ads that were not even mentioned at all.
Yes, Js-Kit has bugs and needs but the sheer volume of users switching over to Js-Kit says they will be the winner, whether anyone likes it or not.
The question being begged is whether there are existing frameworks that provide much of the behavior we need that can be tweaked to our particle needs. The answer is definitely yes. I don't know about others, but the Drupal framework has interfaces to Twitter, Facebook, OpenID, RSS, email, and a myriad of other net services if we want them. It has role based administration, and login. It has threaded conversation. It has ratings if we want them. It has built in very powerful search engine optimization. It has an active and growing community of developers (they claim 300k!) building modules for just about everything under the sun. It can support ads. It can do most of the must haves out of the box.
As for where it resides, it would have to be hosted. There are plenty of commodity solutions for that.
BTW, this is the opposite of resistance to change. I think a commenting system could be much better than the current state of the art.
It’s also not about performance on the server. They’re doing fine in that department, so far, in my experience. My concern is more about the client. I know a bit about this; in a framework called jitsu I went down the same path of sending lots of javascript to the browser, fetching the data remotely, and then rendering it on the client. It doesn’t scale well when you’re talking about several hundred comments on a page going to an iphone. Our plan was to create a mobile version that rendered in a downlevel way, but we ran out of road before that happened. Will they be able to devote resources to such a thing in short order?
It's also a canard to think there will be a single winner. If you look around the space of community building tools, you'll see a broad range of solutions, all working quite well for their purposes. And especially with openID, why does user volume matter for this?
Really, this is about providing a satisfying community space for CalculatedRisk's readers. A dedicated group, formed from the community itself, can be much more responsive to its own needs than a generic solution, especially when many of us have the chops and inclination to create it ourselves. My sense of js-kit is that they are hard working, and as responsive as they can be. But their interests are different. They're a venture backed company, focused on creating a social network from the blogosphere. CR is a customer with a slightly edge case scenario. Where is the business model that keeps them responding as well we can?
If I can help you by beta testing - I will
there are so many comprehensive existing options I can't imagine spending time on building a new comments system from the ground up.
Is that the new US flag? In any case it would be very appropriate.
I think you should set up an email group and have those interested subscribe.
Can Jas be one of the moderators?
abraodthankgod to the rescue. Plaese bring muffins and strong coffee.
abraod is in a poor state and asksmfor little. Perhaps a pup lite of gambac?
CR - Eschaton's site is still using "Haloscan"???
The mortgage pig closing of commercial construction spending!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/Sav2CVOQPaI/AAAAAAAAEqQ/qZ-mjis_YE4/s1600-h/ConstructionSpendingJan2009.jpg
...................
Denninger's site has a nice feature that shows a red symbol if you have not read a post. Once you read it, the star goes away.
How do they define 'reading'? Is it just when you scroll past it? Do you have to click somewhere?
No, you have to click on it. The set up is a lot different from here, so I am not sure if it will work or not:
Top Level - MarketTicker Forums
That sounds like too much work for the reader, at CR volumes especially.
this may be a contraian market bottoming indicator. ramping up a significant CR comments app design and production process at a probable zenith in CR commenting activity and interest.
What if the market bottoms out by the time we get the commenting system working? Imagine how those Sheiks feel about Burj Dubai .. or shiti's stadium naming rights.
LOL!
Good point. feculant too! almost a jinx!
Yeah, I worry about that...
Comment ratings would be useful (and sort by them). I don't have time at the end of the day to paw thru 1000 posts, so hitting the best is required. On haloscan, I was using CRCompanion to hit my favorite authors, but stuff was lost when you do it that way obviously.
I am pretty swamped (like I won't touch this until may), but have some server side expertise. are you collecting emails somewhere?
Also, just wanted to amplify comment above: Is it really necessary to start from scratch?
No.
I've just created a google group to discuss this further for those interested. Probably better than the email solution. Here's a link: CRSiteDev |
Google Groups
Ken,
I like the Drupal approach. You might look into the Drupal module "Chat Room".
I haven;t used it but if it doesn't do what we are looking for it should be easily enhanced.
The key is that each message is a node This in turn enables regular Drupal search facilities Obviously Drupal also supports versioning.
Haven't looked at chat room, thanks for the pointer. If we go with drupal, every message does have to be a node, definitely.
I like the message board system over on www.shacknews.com
Its threaded, but a reply to a thread bumps that entire thread to the top. Sadly, its not open source (they built it inhouse), nor is it lightweight and mobile friendly.
But the way they handle real time threaded chat is the best I've seen.
It looks like www.shacknews.com is based on vBulletin.
I'll take a look. Seems like that would be a little awkward though, bumping threads. What I had in mind would show things in a flat format for active posts, with a little (very lightly visible) expand button to show the comment in context of its thread. For older posts that hadn't had any new comments for awhile, they'd show up in threaded format by default.
Thats exactly what it does. you can click on a reply/sub post and it expands, but by default you see only the first ~50chars or so of the reply.
Long threads have older replies hidden, and with one click you can expand the entire thread.
I'd suggest vBulletin ... it is the largest and most robust forum software out there ... actively developed and active hacker community that does all kinds of custom mods ... has numebrous differenbt ways to view, robuts search, threaded or flat viewing, automated RSS feeds (by individual forum even) which can easily be widgetized so you can stick CR in your own page etc ...
It has a built in blog component (although it would probably require some customization
You could also stay with this blog format and simply create a new thread in the forum for the comments link on each post as a very simple way to make it work until something better developed ... OR you could do away with the blog format altogether and simply create a new thread for each new "post" at CR - the CR post becomes the first in the thread and the discusion follows in the thread - including a threaded or flat file view ...
The newest versoion has tags and most of the other fancy web bells and whistles AND they are working on their next major release whoich will move them into Web 2.0 territory and features - and a much more easily customized system ...
Purchase vBulletin, the most powerful forum software available. and vBulletin.org Forum - The Official vBulletin Resource! for the customization side
last - it can handle - with a decent dedicated server - large traffic - there are many forums with tens of thousands of members and millions of posts
I think JS-Kit just ate my comment. Anyway - I just wanted to say "THANKS!" to Ken.
o/t
More than 240 Kmart employees are being let go across Florida. The company notified the state this week that it was laying them off and shutting stores in St. Petersburg, Winter Park and Coral Springs, where 78 people were being let go
we need a 'save the banks' flash game on the page too
How does the Nikkei with a crashing GDP and exports caving not have a 6 print ?
any chance we could get some of the stimulus spending behind this? Seems like a better use of funds to me...
off to play in traffic!
FLAT, THREADED, WE NEED TO ABANDON THE POST FORMAT ALL TOGETHER, WHAT WE NEED IS A WEB 2.0 COMMENT CLOUD THAT IS WIKIABLE AND COMPATIBLE WITH AN AJAX PLATFORM OR AT THE VERY LEAST PORTABLE TO AN IPHONE AP (WITH SOUND CLIPS TOO)
And we will create synergies of comments out of this new paradigm shift.
first go for the low hanging fruit
Been getting used to this new system. Once I got ABP to omit all the avatars and the 500.000 reply buttons per page, it became positively readable...
Nikkei diving, down almost 200 now...
Think about this. When the media speaks of shares being back at 1997 levels, that is in nominal terms. Fairy tale comparison. Pink glasses. In Europe, some markets are already back to Summer of 1987 levels in real terms (adjusting for inflation). 1987. Let it sink. 1987. So much for buy and hold as a strategy.
"There’ll be need for client and server developers, sys admin types, graphic designers, testers, lawyers, nay-sayers, etc."
Lawyers, Guns and Money. Done!
Better add some Boeing engineers to put some wings on it. Then, some NASA guys for the rocket engines. Don't forget some NASCAR guys...it's got to have wheels. Some stealthy features purchased from military surplus. and Martha Stewart to bake in all together.
Don't reinvent the wheel. Just use an open source CMS that is designed for communities. (Powered by lighttpd is used for DailyKos ) There are other options as well, but that would be a good choice. You can test drive some of the options here PHP CMS Demos - opensourceCMS If you want to customize any of those scripts it wouldn't be that difficult.
It's now on my list, thanks.
Please keep it simple enough that it will run on my Crackberry without driving it crazy. With Haloscan I could only read the first 30 comments before the Crackberry would freeze and I had to pull the battery out to reset the thing.
I'll be glad to help write code if you want to write it in FORTRAN.
Fortran?? Can we play with those cool 96 column cards too?
I have an iphone, so can't get a direct read on the blackberry. Can you read RSS on one of those?
Please keep it simple enough that it will run on my Crackberry without driving it crazy. With Haloscan I could only read the first 30 comments before the Crackberry would freeze and I had to pull the battery out to reset the thing.
Haha you too? I thought it was the government snoop software choking my bb.
I have BB too - sucks - get rid of the damned thing and buy something that works [that is the conclusion I am coming to]...
Hoop,
"I thought it was the government snoop software choking my bb."
You have no idea........
Nostrovia,
CR I'm not much of a tech guy so I'll send you a few bucks to help out . ....Thanks for your great site
It appears everything you want is available for free using
wordpress 2.7.1. It is very adaptable and constantly being updated with new themes and plugins by a dedicated following of developers. Just download it to your server, or use one from wordpress.
Most web WordPress › Blog Tool and Publishing Platform
I'm less enthusiastic about wordpress than drupal (which also has an army of zealots). It's not as extensible.
Done. Let me know how I can be of help.
I'm a graphic designer, 30+ years. The typography and paragraph spacing
in the previous Haloscan format was acceptable: "[Bold] nickname, writes:"
All linear commentary, no overwrought boxes, and no tab-ins.
I might have tweaked the vertical space between posts just
a little, for the sake of clarity, but that would be splitting hairs.
Simple, clean, clear. Divisions and separations with clear space, rather
than the typical clutter of boxes and tones, and rules and stuff.
Avatars are superfluous at best, IMO, and only infrequently cute at first blush.
Third time around, most are just plain dreadful.
I agree haloscan was very clean, I always liked the simple utility. I'm also with you on the avatars.
Have some time to offer up? We could use a designer. Come volunteer at CRSiteDev |
Google Groups
It appears everything you want is available for free using
wordpress 2.7.1.
slutfucksexadultwonderland.com has linked back to your article a total of [2848] times and left [2987492] comments! Approve?
Are the avatars hot?
..nikkei from -2.30% to -1.59%.....rather quick recovery going on......
Hey Ken - thanks.
i can do the plumbing. you didn't specifically ask for plumbers but i figured maybe you forgot.
I have built about 250 message boards and maintained them for some time, years. I am in a related industry (Gming),so if you need an IT deptment, let me know (joking). However i might be tempted to create a revenu prodcing 'G' site for you as a contra. One that Elvis would truly enjoy.
adding: For some time, i have been thinking about a financial betting exchange, built around this crowd. You could bash out the outrageous claims framed in side bets. i could deliver that in say three months. With a lot of development hrs of course. That way Jas could drive in his stake. I'm clear when i say, i would be taking a house position on that one.
I would offer EPH a pt job setting the lines...would be quite interesting pitting his brain against his inexperience.
I'm scratching my head. How could you create a 'G' site that Elvis would truly enjoy?
Ken Cooper says:
Today, 8:25:25 PM
“I'm scratching my head. How could you create a 'G' site that Elvis would truly enjoy?
If you have to ask...
"lutfucksexadultwonderland.com has linked back to your article a total of [2848] times and left [2987492] comments! Approve?"
Funny. But you can disable link-backs and you can obviously prevent trash-commenting using an image verification or other techniques.
Wordpress has thousands of plugins and widgets that activate and add new functionality.
I have a level 46 druid in World of Warcraft in a very exclusive guild. Drop me a PM if you have need of my specialized online skills or if you play on Silverhand and need a buff.
"I have a level 46 druid in World of Warcraft in a very exclusive guild."
Would that be "This is my 78th friggin Alt of Ironforge FTW" guild? Yes, extraordinarily exclusive. You guys still working on BRD?
Nostrovia,
1000 users posting on a 500 comment post can be quite taxing on shared servers. Did we try hosting the commenting server on a dedicated machine?
I don't have a lot of experience with high volume sites, but it sounds like there are many here that do. My gut sense is that it has to be at least a VPS, and possibly dedicated if we're running a search index server. Frameworks like drupal can do a lot with caching, and I've been thinking a bit about how to minimize all these rabid CR junkies hitting the refresh button. Autorefresh could be our friend, if done right.
These comment systems already don't cache the results? Caching either the html or database object would solve any issues with "refresh junkies" whether its a in memory cache or cached on the file system.
Yes, and I have some ideas on how to really minimize the impact of refresh junkies. But some things like search cannot be as easily cached.
Caching search isn't particularly hard, there are a number of open source projects that have this feature. For example:
Compass - Java Search Engine Framework
I'm not sure what exists for the scripting languages. This stuff isn't all that efficient in scripting languages which aren't meant for hmm....actual programming.
A geographically distributed software project like this can be a real patchwork. And generally it all comes down to one or three people anyway, doing most of the work. Friendships can go down... IIWY I'd go straight to some known open source software, and tweak it from there, if you like. Then, if it all goes wrong, you blame the software and not each other, and you just jump to another system. The social psychology of software teams is remarkably relevant to success rates.
While you're at it, might as well bite the bullet and make it a forum, because it's going to end up that way anyway, IMO. And figuring out how to pay for it would be good. All this is coming out of CR's pocket, and it's going to get mucho expensive fast, so you need some sort of income stream, hopefully not too ad dependent, because that can damage the brand.
scone,
"hopefully not too ad dependent, because that can damage the brand."
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Nostrovia,
You sound like you've got some experience in this area...
A big yes on using a framework. Good point about social dynamics, something to keep in mind.
As for cost, that remains to be seen. I don't have a handle yet on our server requirements. I'd rather not have ads in the comments. And I'm willing to help out a little if necessary. I imagine there are others here who would too.
ken,
I posted something about this JS-Kit API late last night and i hate to keep reposting it but it's definitely relavant to this thread and I also think it didnt' get much attention late last night.
I haven't taken the time to sit down and look at the CR Companion code yet, but I'm getting more motivated to take a look. I feel like a couple functions to pull coments in from JS-Kit API and massage them into whatever form haloscan previously provided to CR Companion would be the quickest and easiest way to get back to what most people are missing.
Then more time could be spent to do a ground up rebuild.
The JS-Kit API provides for this link here:
http://js-kit.com/comments-data.js?ref=http://calculatedriskblog.com/8680012678003971835&srt=date&ord=asc
it's not human friendly but looks easy to parse.
There is a somewhat limited search parameter possible is that same GET request, which might be built upon to meet people's needs.
The API wiki is here:
JS-Kit Community Wiki / API-Guide
hopefully later tonight i'll take a peek at cr companion code. I'm not a programming guru, but to non-programmers I might be able to pass as one.
I've actually been toying with a greasemonkey script today using that. I'm considering implementing my idea here (and my reply below it)
HaloScan.com - Comments
I've already added a # perm link to posts and a refresh link at both the top and bottom
I studied the js-kit code with the thought of porting CR Companion a bit this weekend. What you say is correct; you could do exactly what you're describing. There are issues around hooking update events that might be tricky, and to get them, you have to inject javascript into the page. The reason I've moved away from it is that not everyone benefits from CRC for various reasons and I felt my energy would be better spent this way.
If you're interested in doing the port, I'd be happy to supply you with the original source. Send me an email via my blog at CR Companion.
Um...yeah...uh...I got some stuff...ahem...
What's the backbone. Assume LAMPS?
I can set up a lab server within a few hours or so, if I have some specs.
Nostrovia,
I should add, that by having CR Companion use the JS-Kit API, then CR can continue using JS-Kit with custom CSS or whatever skinning etc. and the API should continue to operate the same. So CR doesn't have to make accommodations for a browser add-on (and any changes he does make to layout etc. don't break parsing on the add-on).
Ken stop boxing out Brian, the CRBot author. He's awesome!
I really don't mean to, I'm infected by the snark on this blog. I agree, he is totally awesome. I love the CRBot posts. Brian, I hope you're reading this. If not, CRBot, can you let your janitor know?
...which is really more a real time salon than a blog with semi-static comments.
I knew I was onto something big here. But a salon, in these revolutionary times? Nothing beats that Madame de Staël feeling in the morning, noon or night.
"I feel like a couple functions to pull coments in from JS-Kit API and massage them into whatever form haloscan previously provided to CR Companion would be the quickest and easiest way to get back to what most people are missing."
Hey, that actually makes a lot of sense. Must be why I did that.
yeah, so can you graft that code into cr companion so it sees whatever it's used to seeing?
i really need to look at cr companion code already.
Awesome! Where's the code? Put it up on mozilla!
....geeze...this is like reading Greek.....I'll supply snacks and shut up....
The Latest from Mish:
Time To Rollback Government Salaries Across The Board
Another thing, all that testing and debugging going on while the world goes up in flames with a dozen new threads a day and 5 zillion people coming in saying, "WTF just happened? Where's my savings/retirement/socks?" It could get a little hectic. Tempers could get tetchy. Just saying.
I have nothing to contribute beyond my thanks to Ken cooper, CalculatedRisk, and others who give their time/money/energy to the back office side of this intriguing nebulous community. Whatever happens, I'm cool with it
briwerk/CRBot, same goes for you too
I am an unemployed, high-end network security engineer (translation: I used to work for a financial services company making six figures and now I couldn't find a job if it fell out of the sky into my living room).
If you need my help (firewalling, routing, security), please reply to this post. Otherwise, thanks for trying to improve our online life.
friar - email ken or take it to the google group (addy above - somewhere).
Update: Santelli Stares Down Playboy | The Big Picture
I volunteer to lawyer it. Just let me know what you need lawyered.
I'll counterlawyer Bret Moore's lawyering. For balance.
CR: the only place on the net where finance wonks, traders and code monkeys peacefully co-exist.
another round for the salon.
I will volunteer to mediate between Bret Moore & Partners LLP and Hoopajoops LTD. Does that mean I can expense a box of Danishes?
New Thread: WSJ: Leaked Details on Public-Private Entities Buying Bad Bank Assets
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/03/wsj-leaked-details-on-public-private.html ( 2 comments )
I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: Mibbit IRC client widget (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)
CRbot would now like to announce (though you smart people have likely figured it out by now the born and bred dopes haven't) that in my quest for virtual world domination, I, CRbot, am now a FULLY OPERATIONAL BATTLESTATION! Er, that is, I can now spam JsKit.
You humans thought you could pull a fast one on me, didn't you. You must learn that there is no escape.
--Your you-just-can't-keep-a-good-bot-down bot
P.S. So after I switch myself to a whole new commenting system for you people, on the weekend, that happened to be during my vacation, you complain that the link isn't working, the link isn't working! Holy freaking Christ people! BOO HOO. I'm going to get the code janitor to fix it for you, but cut a bot a break, will you?
CRbot: Now with Js-Kit posting power! For Nemobot to envy!
I'll be the one who does the thing with the lawyers and the thing we do first.
/ducks
Nostrovia,
I will observe and tweak the model like a good monkey I mean banker
js-kit is a lot more like talking to myself than it was with haloscan flat style.
without linear comments, posters are isolated from exposure to related information that occurs in the overlapping live conversational flow. Conversations are all about linking replies together into a dialog. the added benefit of sub threads may be of more value than the live action. i am really curious to see what happens when we go non linear in here. will hierarchical structure form from the chaos of the destroyed linearity?
"the live stream could be approximated with an add on like cr bot in a self refreshing pop out as an optional viewing area to the half flat threaded js-kit experience."
We're gonna need a server running an 8 bit OS to do that! Holy crud! That's unpossible!
Nostrovia,
otishertz: Come to irc, people are actually talking!
Bring back the old Haloscan. Period.
hang seng well below 12000
I'm a developer (and long time reader of CR) and would possibly be interested in contributing to such a project. I've worked on a number of web applications and would primarily be interested in server-side development, but could help with other things too. My language of choice is Java, but I don't mind working with PHP, Python, Perl etc. Don't have much interest in Microsoft technologies.
Too many cooks spoil the broth. Leave well enough alone.
The number one criteria has to be simplicity. The one and only reason CR comments are popular is their high volume of information. As soon as you promote threading, avatars, profiles and logins the dynamism of the site will turn from "sink or swim" to old boys club. No one is right 100% of the time and promoting an environment that concentrates commenting power will diminish the value of the site much like concentrating information dissemination in real life created... err... "born and bred dopes". I hate myself for saying that.
Here is my list of features required.
That's it. No community settings. If you start creating cliques, the comments will lose value and you will lose the best posters. That much is clear as day. Look and feel adds nothing to this site, if anything it's increased importance will become a distraction and a magnet for non-information seekers.
I'll offer help if we're making an information viewer.
"Too many cooks spoil the broth. Leave well enough alone."
+1
Thanks CR for the site and Ken for CR companion. We owe you a lot. At least now you have enough good karma to last you a lifetime!
Carnap says: 9:41:31 PM
“I'm a developer (and long time reader of CR) and would possibly be interested in contributing to such a project. I've worked on a number of web applications and would primarily be interested in server-side development, but could help with other things too. My language of choice is Java, but I don't mind working with PHP, Python, Perl etc.
I would do this blog as a phpbbs. Comrade Misean says: ' I see no reason why this should not be a chat room... '
A phpbbs version of this room would be absolutely the easiest and best forum format to grow into. I understand Tanta was against that sort of thing. But, nevertheless, it would deliver painlessly what this (outdated) technology attempts only halfway to deliver on. phpbb is easy to admin.
"I would do this blog as a phpbbs."
I wouldn't. What is used depends on the sort of dynamics that is desired from CR. Most commenting systems are complete crap, including the one used by PhpBB. I can't think of any problem that Phpbb would solve.
For me personally the problem with comments on CR is that its filled with a lot of banal chatter. Most commenting systems work just fine if there are a smallish number of comments, but once you get into 100+ comments they are crap. CR is no exception and I personally stopped spending much time in the comments section because it was too hard to filter the banal chatter from the comments I wanted to read.
Ok, now we digress into a predictable battle of opinions on forum software. I personally like phpbb, can't imagine it as "complete crap". Have you Carnap ever installed and worked with phpbb?
Anyway, this change/evolution is a perfect example of one of my steadfast rules; if something is working, don't fix it. Referring to haloscan of course.
@KR:<br/>HS was broke. We had no alternative?
Just about any forum software kicks the pants off of blog comments for anything of scale.
Agreed, time to ditch the training wheels, and move to something more fulfilling.
"Ok, now we digress into a predictable battle of opinions on forum software"
I don't care about debating about "forum software". One first has to ask, is this a forum? My answer: No, not really. Therefore forum software with a crappy commenting system (the key issue here) is surely not the answer.
"Have you Carnap ever installed and worked with phpbb"
Unfortunately yes and it like most open source PHP projects is written like complete crap. A hybrid of object-based and half-backed procedural programming sprinkled with SQL.
Ken
ive heard persuasive arguments against the inclusion of avatars
id like to counter...the avatar with the handle ensures that the handle has not been hijacked, at least in js kit
anybody can type any handle in, as a guest, but only if logged in with password does the true "owners" avatar appear
I'd suggest looking at what Plastic.com does. The guy who built the site is extremely smart and it has a pretty good real-time posting setup.
I'll take a look, thanks.
This is for CRBot: I'm an IRC noob, tried to connect, but don't know what I'm doing. Love to chat with you.
Ken, for IRC, install Chatzilla on firefox, then go to:
irc://irc.realize.org:9996/#calculatedrisk
Igonre TEST
The #1 problem with CR comments is all the white noise chatter that comes on every post. When Tanta wanted good comments she would make her post, then immediately follow it with a 2nd post she didn't care as much about so the white noise chatter would only be on the 2nd post.
I think you should start by looking at what other blogs that receive 100+ comments per post do. One item I see that is not listed in this post - allow replies to receive a rating then give the reader the option of sorting by rating (instead of by time posted).
What about Moodle?
It's tremendously configurable with lots of variable control for user access. It would allow you to create related side-forums, grant degrees of moderator rights to other posters, and allow multiple topic-specific side-forums where people could decide if they wanted to allow only registered users or anyone post. 80% of the features, you wouldn't use and it'd be a little more complex to admin (though not insurmountably so.) But it would give you a lot of flexibility regarding extra features, and have all those you'd need.
I'd be happy to volunteer my time and energy as a computer programmer to any alternative comment system for Calculated Risk. However, all custom code carries certain risks - for instance, what happens if your main programmer gets hit by a bus and someone else needs to take over? Was her code well documented? Can other programmers easily understand the system? I've often been hired to clean up the work of another programmer, so I know from painful experience that many programmers write sloppy code that is difficult for other programmers to understand. Creating custom software for your site is, therefore, a risk to be carefully calculated before being undertaken. You'll want to look at all the free comment services out there first (and there are an amazing number of them).
But, as I say, I'd be happy to help. To mitigate risk, and to minimize the downside of using custom code, I've been using the Symfony framework for all of my recent projects. I'd suggest it, or some other framework like it, to supply the needed structure that rises above the chaos of allowing each programmer to make their own arbitrary decisions.
The main comment window could be a live cr bot with cr companion filtering and referencing options. js-kit could be relegated to archive status. the archive should link to the live comments. this archive would grow in value to site visitors over time as information self organized into subtopics.
Markel wrote:
"Note that the kind of comment system that CR commenters want isn't necessarily the same kind of system that CR readers want. Haloscan comments always devolve to chatrooms as soon as a blog passes a threshold size. Viz. Atrios."
Would it make sense then to have an actual chat room for those who want real time conversation? The comments could then be reserved for folks who have something more substantial to say. This suggestion might be a bit out there, but I have developed some PHP/MySql/Ajax chat software. Happy to donate it if the good folks at Calculated Risk want to split comments from chat.
I'm pleased, and very surprised, that 250 comment got posted and everyone who had a technical opinion was apparently in the open-source/lamp world. And this, on a financial blog, which must get a disproportionate amount of corporate viewing. Where are the Microsofties?