NY AG Cuomo Letter to Barney Frank on Merrill Bonuses
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Thu, 02/12/2009 - 10:31am (412 comments)
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They should leave the poor bankers alone!!
Dang, I should do a YouTube video.
Look lotsa unemployed banksters now. Give 'em a break.
Don't forget the 700 Merrill employees who received bonuses of $1 million or more.
Clearly what we need to do is give more money to these banks.
When will we see banksters in soupline?
Courtesy of Elvis from last thread:
Home price declines deepen - Feb. 12, 2009
Go take the Quick Vote poll on the Geithner plan to spur lending...
Soup lines? You mean like in prison?
Let the Jacquerie begin.
Under what legal grounds could they claw back bonuses anyways?? This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Twist fraudulent conveyance around hard enough, will it fit...?
You take their homes, cars, bling bling, etc..., you garnish their wages for the rest of their lives, and then you prosecute them for creating this mess.
"This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Gavshire Hathaway"
Not if the Obama decides to seize their assets if they resist.
Reposting.
Heads they win, tails you gonna lose :
Lawmakers' Goal to Cap Executive Pay Meets Resistance
Lawmakers' Goal to Cap Executive Pay Meets Resistance - washingtonpost.com
Provisions to impose a penalty on banks that paid hefty bonuses and to cap pay at $400,000 for all employees at firms applying for additional government funds did not survive the compromise, sources said.
[T]hese payments and their curious timing raise serious questions as to whether the Merrill Lynch and Bank of America Boards of Directors were derelict in their duties and violated their fiduciary obligations
There is no question in my mind they were derelict.
We need a "water boarding" OF directors.
If bankers were in the army, they'd demand bonuses for winning "their" part of the battle, even though the other guys in the other division lost the war. But they'd all be dead when they got their bonuses.
The bankers need to start to grasp the concept that when they fail as a team, they should not get rewarded as individuals. In the real world with military (or even normal free-market) accountability, they'd all be dead, unemployed or under new management.
I don't think they are talking clawback, I think they are talking jail.
Clawbacks.
Barney to Merrill campaign contributors: Why was my cut so low?
To Anonymous from previous thread
km4 writes:
Thank you Barney!
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 1:42 pm | #
Are you a Log Cabin Republican ?
or
are you really Idaho Sen. Larry "Wide Stance" Craig ?
"The bankers need to start to grasp the concept that when they fail as a team, they should not get rewarded as individuals."
Why? They are supreme athletes just like those in the NBA, NFL, PGA, and MLB.
it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Gavshire Hathaway
True, but perp walks do alot of good - they make people feel satisfied that a wrong has been made right.
OTOH, they can confiscate real property and assets, if found guilty of something.
(note to self, set up company to provide immediate, on-call, private flights to Switzerland)
Provisions to impose a penalty on banks that paid hefty bonuses and to cap pay at $400,000 for all employees at firms applying for additional government funds did not survive the compromise, sources said.
I think the choice was set up wrong. It should have been cap your pay, or go to jail.
Easiest way to clawback is to assess a windfall tax.
witch-hunts are fun to watch, as long as their focus is confined/constrained
i didn't speak up when they came for you.............no who will speak up for me when they come for me??
ugly social inertia here
My only problem is that politically motivated persecutors tend to WAY overstate things in the media.
Not saying something hinky wasn't up, but, anyone who thinks persecutors are only doling out "justice", and "searching for the truth" is in LALA land.
And then, of course, it's Cuomo...
Nostrovia,
@Gavshire "This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot."
You mistakenly assume that the legal system is static. If the banks can get the government to change the rules in their favor in the middle of the game (as has happened over and over again for the past year and a half), I think turnabout is fair play...
"Easiest way to clawback is to assess a windfall tax.
mattdog"
of 125%
This is what you get for bailing out telephone sanitizers.
it may be impossible to confiscate bonuses, but there are so many other things those executives could be prosecuted for...
Maybe it's time to start liquidating their wealth and locking them up.
You can't be tolerant to the point of self-annihilation.
That's currently where we're headed.
ugly social inertia here
It doesn't have to be. The government could be doing it's job. Left to their own devices The People will not sit idle.
Lesson 31 in the anti-libertarian manifesto.
Working on song, "Banksta Rap."
All contributions welcome.
Did ML or BOFA beg govt to provide them money. It is the govt (and to an extent public) that was rushing to help them not to collapse. Any taxpayer funds should have come after its shareholders were wiped out and the management flushed out. The fact is that there is no change in administration except the names and faces (none in actions).
The real point here is perhaps to go after the officers and directors....at worst jail at best can not serve in a public company
If Obama does not act on tearing these guys a new hole, he will be toast. Seems like the political calculus is obvious for the the frog-march. Axelrod knows this, Emmanuel knows this. There is also a moral calculus that supports this political calculus.
energy,
It's enough to do the job \t9% \t
It's a start, but more aid will be needed \t35% \t
It won't work \t56% \t
Nostrovia,
"it may be impossible to confiscate bonuses, but there are so many other things those executives could be prosecuted for...
Missed Information"
The proper language to use to them is "so many other things those executives could be sodomized for in maximum security prisons."
Look lotsa unemployed banksters now. Give 'em a break.
Barley | 02.12.09 - 1:48 pm | #
I wouldn't call them unemployed. I would call them the 'idle rich.' I would LIKE to call them prisoners, convicts, enemy combatants...
The entire board of directors concept has been hijacked. Oversight is as dead as fried chicken.
Here's how it works: Directors get paid pile of money to make sure company officers get paid an even bigger pile of money.
What a sham.
Any dingbat can reward incompetence.
How is this not criminal? I don't get it. This is stealing. This country is so screwed. The rule of law means nothing.
GS:
Reggie M. targeted them at 60, but that was months ago. Might be lower.
"And tell serf Alan Greenspend to stand by with a camera. "
Where is serf?
securitized lending is Ponzi
This is what you get for bailing out telephone sanitizers.
Obscure troll line of the day, I'd say.
Very cool letter, and that we all get to see it.
Still, Cuomo e-mailing it to Frank whose staff prints it out, then scan it back in, so it can be posted online.
head whomp on desk
Gavshire-san:
Fraudulent conveyance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The banks are bankrupt. They knew it. They paid themselves anyway.
Cheers,
prat
Under what legal grounds could they claw back bonuses anyways?? This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Directly, but have you ever talked to people involved in finance? I know a guy who used to be in mortgage finance and the stories he tells - the jails wouldn't be large enough to hold all the criminals. That's not high finance but I suspect almost anybody who's "earned" a million-dollar bonus has done something that qualifies as wire fraud. There are ways to exert pressure.
And of course, remember these are politicians! It doesn't matter if 90% get away if this makes Cuomo Governor or Junior Senator of New York. He has motive to pursue and expose even if he can't remedy.
Burn down Wall Street!
"(note to self, set up company to ..."
I don't think Switzerland is quite as secure as you may imagine.
relatively small amounts estimated at approximately $91,000 per employee
I wish my annual salary were a relatively small amount.
My fear from all this blood lust is that it gives TPTB and there CONgang lackeys room to line up some of the usual suspects and have a nice hanging, give the rubes a pound of hot, dripping flesh to gnaw on, and then get back to business as usual...a la Kenny boy.
IIRC Wall Street was knee deep in that mess too...hmmm?
Nostrovia,
Yves at Naked Capitalism has an interesting take on the "stress tests". Apparently she is underwhelmed.
Bank Stress Test: Less than Meets the Eye
Also interesting to watch the action in CRE today. SPG and VNO are finally starting to show cracks. About damn time. I've been hearing some CRE horror stories through the grapevine. Things are starting to get ugly.
In response to a few questions from the last post:
Swedish inflation was high during the bubble (10%) and fell during the bust (2%)
The Swedish Krona devalued sharply when the bubble burst from 5 SEK/USD to 8 SEK/USD. Beggar thy neighbor?
The mortgage rate does influence the value of a house. But, so does the rental growth rate. The higher the spread between these two values the lower the ratio of price to rent should be. During the bubble this spread was much smaller (5% mortgage, 2% rental growth, 3% spread) than it is now (5% mortgage, 0% rental growth?, 5% spread). If you value a structure as the PV of future rental streams this becomes pretty clear.
I personally think rents are falling around 5-10% in urban areas right now, so the Price/Rent ratio should go well below 1.
This is just political grandstanding.
There was no provision for limitation of bonuses or cancellation of contractual bonuses in the funding that Treasury gave B of A, and no 'crime' was committed here.
If B of A complains or has an issue, you might see the possibility of clawbacks of some of the non-contractual bonus payments, but other than that there's no chance for any repercussions other than embarrassment for the senior execs. Cuomo knows this.
While what the Merrill folks did was wrong, there is also delicious irony here where politicians are stunned that government largess is mismanaged.
There's going to almost $800B more of mismanagement where this came from.
I personally know a quant in Merril who got 20k bonus (12k after tax). His good year bonuses were over 100k.
So it's just executives looting the failing business, and that could be used as grounds for a suit.
One More Thing,
Dear Mr Cuomo & Staff
Please learn how to produce a chart, rather than using more space to convey less information on the bonus distributions.
Thanks a bunch,
EHP
Swedish inflation was high during the bubble (10%) and fell during the bust (2%)
MinniRenter | 02.12.09 - 2:02 pm | #
That makes sense, and suggests that the bubble in the US was much worse, as inflation was relatively low.
Obscure troll line of the day, I'd say.
Peasant Darkness | 02.12.09 - 2:00 pm | #
History of the term "Telephone Sanitizer"
This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #
Then lets prosecute anyone we can, and fine them the equivalent amount.
denriddy --
Working on song, "Banksta Rap."
It has been done.
I've been hearing some CRE horror stories through the grapevine. Things are starting to get ugly.
\t Gavshire Hathaway | \t \t \t \t02.12.09 - 2:01 pm | #
Wait till GGP finally bites it in March. That'll be ugly.
Fair Economist | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:00 pm | #
In case you didn't see it, thanks for the explanation in the last thread.
Well if you're pumping water out of the bathtub at one end while someone else is trying to fill it with water from the faucet at the other end... Well, ok, you didn't drink out of the faucet directly, but you're certainly at cross-purposes with the supposed effort.
All,
Read this short description of the "Martin Act."
Martin Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cuomo and Frank are a grandstanding pimps.
Law officials already have all the authority they need to see that justice is served.
Still, Cuomo e-mailing it to Frank whose staff prints it out, then scan it back in, so it can be posted online.
head whomp on desk
EvilHenryPaulson
.
The gummit does not fully grok 'paperless.' When I wrote a brief for the Land Use Board of Appeals last year, everything had to be on paper. No emails at all.
This is what you get for bailing out telephone sanitizers.
Obscure troll line of the day, I'd say.
Not here. There were people bidding in Quatloos the other night. Me, I bid the leaves of a deciduous forest for that ships' peanut.
OT (cont): http://www.tlb.org/telsan.html
The Lorax | 02.12.09 - 2:04 pm | #
Interesting, thx. I was strictly limiting the reference to Adam's use in HGTTG. I thought you were saying, 'well we all thing the bankers are useless now, but after we got rid of them, everyone died.'
Yeah, my brain works that way.
Not here.
I've been too busy with work to keep up. Don't want to go hungry.
"Not here. There were people bidding in Quatloos the other night. Me, I bid the leaves of a deciduous forest for that ships' peanut.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 2:06 pm"
Yes, and it's best to LEAVE those not in the know out...or to teh google.
Besides, leaves require effort. I'll buy all your leaves for 100,000,000,000,000,000 quatloos.
Nostrovia,
Under what legal grounds could they claw back bonuses anyways??
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #
Depends on who 'they' are. The taxpayers have not suffered a loss because of the bonuses and will not suffer a loss if BofA repays the funds. It's the shareholders who were damaged. They can bring a basic shareholder derivative action if they so choose.
Me, I bid the leaves of a deciduous forest for that ships' peanut.
Anonymous
.
Pirate hitchhikers. Bugger.
Lynn, who was also the chief operating officer of Enron's LJM private equity funds, agreed to pay nominal disgorgement of $1.00 and a civil penalty of $30,000. Castleman will pay $41,268.29, consisting of disgorgement of $30,000 and prejudgment interest of $11,268.29, with all but $12,000 of the penalty waived. The commission added that it intends to have the disgorgement and civil penalty paid into an account under the Fair Fund provision of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act to distribute to victims of the fraud.
The SEC initially filed its complaint last October against Castleman, Lynn, and Cheryl I. Lipshutz, the former vice president of Enron's corporate finance division special projects group. At the time, Lipshutz agreed to settle the charges without admitting or denying the regulator's allegations. Under the deal, she was ordered to pay disgorgement of $20,000, prejudgment interest of $7,150 and a penalty of $25,000.
he Commission said it intends to direct the money paid by CIBC to Enron fraud victims under the Fair Fund provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.
The following day, the Commission settled fraud charges against Vivendi Universal, S.A., its former CEO, Jean-Marie Messier and former CFO, Guillaume Hannezo. Under the settlement, Vivendi agreed to pay a $50 million civil penalty. (Also at right).
The settlements also include Messier's agreement to relinquish his claims to a 21-million euro severance package (approximately $26 million U.S. dollars) that he negotiated just before he resigned his positions at Vivendi, and payment of disgorgement and civil penalties by Messier and Hannezo that total over $1 million.
Under Section 308(a) of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (see excerpt at left), the SEC is allowed but not required to add penalties to disgorgements, which always went to victims (providing the amount was large enough and there was a way to identify the victims).
Before the Act, by law, all civil penalties were paid into the U.S. Treasury, and, as a result, kept out of the hands of defrauded investors.
Now, however, the Commission has authority, in certain circumstances, to use civil penalties to help make defrauded investors whole.
I hope some of these crooks go to jail.
The actions of the bank officers clearly show why 'trust' cannot be restored to the banking system in spite of unlimited amounts of government spending.
As long as the same people are in the same jobs, you have to assume the same motivations, the same beliefs, the same attitude toward business. We know what those are - we have the vaunted 'transparency' in that regard. We know we cannot trust these people. If they stay, trust will not return.
And of course, remember these are politicians! It doesn't matter if 90% get away if this makes Cuomo Governor or Junior Senator of New York. He has motive to pursue and expose even if he can't remedy.
Yep. Truer words have never been typed. It costs money to do an investigation. It costs money to bring them to trial. It costs money to get a jury pool. Even if it is US District Court.
The Judges do not have room on their dockets for a zillion of these cases. These trials are never short. No, heads are gonna roll, but it will be select, high profile, heads.
Not to be too tin foil hat, but were the bonuses really more hush money than anything else?
@Wallster: "other than that there's no chance for any repercussions other than embarrassment for the senior execs"
Aside from possibly being wrong on some key facts, said execs appear to grossly "misunderestimate" the power of embarrassment in a world where their company's survival depends on political support from Washington.
Once the bigger banksters lose their political protection, not only do they risk losing their reputations and wealth, but they stand to lose their corporate creations and all the legal windfalls and loopholes they've created over the past 2 1/2 decades.
"While more than 39 thousand Merrill employees received bonuses from the pool, the vast majority of these funds were disproportionately distributed to a small number of individuals. Indeed, Merrill chose to make millionaires out of a select group of 700 employees."
.
Par for the course.
According to Section 308 of Sarbanes-Oxley, if the SEC in any judicial or administrative action brought under SOX obtains an order "requiring disgorgement against any person for a violation of such laws or the rules or regulations thereunder, or such person agrees in settlement of any such action to such disgorgement, and the Commission also obtains pursuant to such laws a civil penalty against such person, the amount of such civil penalty shall, on the motion or at the direction of the Commission, be added to and become part of the disgorgement fund for the benefit of the victims of such violation."
I think the real issue is on what should bonuses be paid? Should they be paid when the trade is made or should they be made when the value of the trade on which they are paid a bonus is realized?
Perhaps instead of capping amounts etc. we need to insist that bonuses can only be paid on realized (in terms of cash) gains. What the problem here is that the people got paid bonuses on the value of the securities (unrealized) in the year the investment was made. Of course we all know when these investments were to be sold, the losses were huge but bonuses were already paid on the unlreaized gains vs. the large realized losses.
This change to incorporate claw backs based on the actual realized value was mentioned in a CNBC interview with one of the heads of these banks (forget which one) but as usual the CNBC pro Wall Street Banker anti individual investor cheerleader didn't really want to hear about such a suggestion.
This way it makes sense. An investment banker who sells a firm and gets a cash fee for the bank gets paid when the deal closes / not when it is signed. The problem arises when you pay a bonus based on an item such as the debt arranged by the bank to fund such a deal. The bonus shouldn't be paid until the bank is either able to sell of this peir loan or until the debt is paid back. And of course wall street will object because then the bankers would have to really do their homework to make sure the deal makes sense over the long term.
Going to be a lot of plea bargining. Going to be a lot people rolling on someone else. Thats where they will get the big names.
Counterpointer writes:
Actually I'm reading some bad shiite in the 30-year auction. For success and confidence there should be fewer holes in those numbers.
They actually look better than the 10yr's auction yesterday. Only 45% allotted at high yield today, but still a lot of primary dealer bottom fishing. Smaller spread too. I remember yesterday's calling for no other word than kurtosis.
I think there are legitimate people out there expecting a second rush into Treasuries by mid-year. Something will spook the herd. Until then, it is a good way to go long if you must.
@Peasant Darkness
Sorry, just meant that if you give money to the segment of the population that does not grow, make, invent, or create that money will vanish as quickly as it appears and we should not be surprised.
We should be bailing out the people that will save this country, not the idiots that got us here.
from the article: "[T]hese payments and their curious timing raise serious questions as to whether the Merrill Lynch and Bank of America Boards of Directors were derelict in their duties and violated their fiduciary obligations."
## To pose the question is to accuse. I might even vote for this turd, if I lived in NY.
I'll buy all your leaves for 100,000,000,000,000,000 quatloos. - Comrade Misean is Dope
The dark side welcomes you Darth Misean. Your fiat Quatloos are accepted but with them your implicit acceptance that fiat currency is legitimate. In truth we Gamesters trade in entertainment labor. Your entire planet is thus now dedicated to amusing we.
two events in recent history are frequently forgotten:
this is how they behaved when times were 'good
The Latest from Mish:
No Transparency In "Stress Test"
Time to change my rating there, ac.
"There was no provision for limitation of bonuses or cancellation of contractual bonuses in the funding that Treasury gave B of A, and no 'crime' was committed here."
I'm sot so sure about that. The letter appears to be getting at the issue of timing - were the bonuses timed so as to be included in the loss that was then advertised to the world as a reason for a bailout. If so, we are getting into fraud territory.
Erin has requested that her viewers email her with silver linings they have found in their neighborhoods:
streetsigns@cnbc.com
Going to be a lot of plea bargining. Going to be a lot people rolling on someone else. Thats where they will get the big names.
nova
.
The big names have a lot of money to help potential whistle blowers come to the right decision. The infirm will be sacrificed to the wolves, but the herd will survive.
You could change this by forcibly destroying the "commission sales" foundation of the business, but I doubt that's in the cards.
Erin has requested that her viewers email her with silver linings they have found in their neighborhoods:
You mean like discarded Ho-Ho wrappers?
What I fear most is a nationalization of banks with Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and the other clowns in Congress planning to force more those banks into continued policies of irresponsible lending just to get "credit unfrozen". Credit is frozen for a reason: It makes little sense to lend.
99% of financial innovations are inflationary shams (naked derivatives for example). Bonuses based on these shams are absolutely absurd.
Adding more money to an existing amount of goods & services is wealth dilution, not wealth creation.
Wall street is the distributor of central bank and government inflation.
It should be run as a regulated utility.
Nemo - I have never seen a wrapped Ho.
You mean like discarded Ho-Ho wrappers?
Nemo
Erin is a discarded Ho-Ho...
Congress wanted to guarantee that the $700 billion financial bailout would limit the eye-popping pay of Wall Street executives, so lawmakers included a mechanism for reviewing executive compensation and penalizing firms that break the rules.
But at the last minute, the Bush administration insisted on a one-sentence change to the provision, congressional aides said. The change stipulated that the penalty would apply only to firms that received bailout funds by selling troubled assets to the government in an auction, which was the way the Treasury Department had said it planned to use the money.
Now, however, the small change looks more like a giant loophole, according to lawmakers and legal experts. In a reversal, the Bush administration has not used auctions for any of the $335 billion committed so far from the rescue package, nor does it plan to use them in the future. Lawmakers and legal experts say the change has effectively repealed the only enforcement mechanism in the law dealing with lavish pay for top executives.
Half of all CDOs of ABS have failed.
FT.com / Capital Markets - Half of all CDOs of ABS failed
The great American gravy train chugs on....
I'm pretty sure that there is plenty of fraud to charge a lot of people with crimes
Any money earned due to fraud.. well that can be seized
Ever seen what they do in the drug war? That take people's cars because there kid was caught driving around with an ounce of weed
Angry Saver writes:
"99% of financial innovations are shams"
Fixed that for ya
It should be run as a regulated utility.
Angry Saver | 02.12.09 - 2:20 pm
Agreed. Wall St has been the biggest waster of capital known to mankind. First the dot com bubble and now the real estate bubble. All while bankers got rich.
At some point, we have to point the fingers and the peddlers of toxic equities, mortgages, securities, etc.
The Latest from Denninger:
Fire Geithner?
Mish says writes:
What I fear most is a nationalization of banks with Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and the other clowns in Congress planning to force more those banks into continued policies of irresponsible lending just to get "credit unfrozen".
It's a reasonable fear. Those guys keep changing tactics and yet they don't even know what game they're playing.
I would love to get the list of all the Bank executives (All 700) and home address. Then I would hires someone to pass this information out (at their local unemployment offices ). We will see how long it takes till the unemployed show up at these people houses .Hell I might even help fund picking up the homeless to drop off at the banker house.
OK the 10 year T looking a little...funky...
10-YEAR TREASURY NOTE Index Chart - Yahoo! Finance
wallster,
Fraudulent conveyance gives us plenty of room to bring suits. Public outrage will give the suits muscle.
All great political changes could be characterized as grandstanding in their nascent stage. I'm not convinced this will go anywhere, but I'm also not convinced it won't.
cheers,
prat
Credit enima is coming, that's already being done. A group in Connecticut organized it, I'll try and find the link for you...
100,000,000,000,000,000 quatloos
Comrade Misean is Dope | 02.12.09 - 2:08 pm | #
What about bars of latinum?
Fed's primary dealer list down to 16, losing Merrill; in talks to add 4 dealers
As if we don't have enough thieves on the street.
Can we get a little justifiable anger directed at the idiots who voted to give the banks this money, or is this blog for class warfare only?
Where are the 'independent' directors of these public corporations? Do they have liability/responsibility in bonus disbursements.
What about valuation / disclosure of toxic assets.
"Can we get a little justifiable anger directed at the idiots who voted to give the banks this money"
They need to be butt f*cked and left for dead on the side of the trail.
Credit enima is coming writes:
I would love to get the list of all the Bank executives (All 700) and home address.
.
You could probably google a lot of this stuff, then post it on the web.
Hint: Most of these guys have country homes in the "boot" of Connecticut, or in the Hamptons, out to Montauk. There are some real estate stalker sites with good data.
Of course, there are harassment, menacing, disturbing the peace issues, that sort of thing.
There are too many snake oil salesmen on Wall Street (and in congress).
"...dividing the $3.6 billion over thousands upon thousands of employees results in relatively small amounts estimated at $91,000 per employee."
I know from other comments that most of the bonus money went to a few hundred employees. But, since when is a $91,000 bonus a realtively small amount as Cuomo call it in his letter? A $910 bonus is a small bonus, not $91K. And anyone involved in this bonus payout that thinks it is okay to pay any bonuses at all when Merril was effectively bankrupt is certifiable.
No Transparency In "Stress Test"
CRbot | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:16 pm | #
Whenever I read 'stress test', I think of what the doctor does with the heart monitor & a treadmill. Adding transparency to that visual leads to images of naked bankers wired up, huffing and puffing while a whitecoat observes with a clipboard in hand and a frown on face.
Johnny Lee(Unrated) writes:
\tHalf of all CDOs of ABS have failed.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ ddaa47...0077b07658.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quit being such a glass half full downer.
Look on the bright side: Half of all CDOs and ABs are still good!!
Party On!
I hope some of these crooks go to jail.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 2:12 pm | #
More likely they'll end up in congress and regulatory positions.
What do you think these people are going to do with all the wealth they've accumulated?
They're going to buy their way into the government.
It's a reasonable fear. Those guys keep changing tactics and yet they don't even know what game they're playing.
fafhrd | 02.12.09 - 2:22 pm
Here is my analogy:
The geniuses of Wall St. have already jumped out of the plane with their parachutes and loot.
They've left the chumps to fight out how to control it.
The current pilots (Fed & Treasury) really only know how to fly biplanes. And even those only from the books they've read.
Meanwhile, steerage, you and me, has appointed Congress to yell at the pilots to "Fly higher and smoother. Now." Congress also periodically yells at the bankers landing softly with their parachutes.
Meanwhile, the plane continues to tumble and break up.
The solution: there is none. Does anyone really think Congress, the Fed and Treasury are going to figure out to grow or even gently land the American economy.
We should have never built this plane and we shouldn't gotten inside, nor should we have let bankers fly it.
Our only hope is that after the controlled flight into terrain, enough pieces AND people are salvageable to rebuild something of more lasting value.
Comrade Kristina writes:
Credit enima is coming, that's already being done. A group in Connecticut organized it, I'll try and find the link for you...
Comrade Kristina | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:24 pm | Yea I saw that.... I was thinking on the same lines except a little less Civil ... Maybe Pitchforks and Hanging
Gavshire, you owe me a keyboard...
100,000,000,000,000,000 quatloos
Comrade Misean is Dope | 02.12.09 - 2:08 pm | #
What about bars of latinum? Joanna
That would be bars of gold pressed latinum as the liquid is far too unstable.
Besides, everyone knows copper is the most valuable material in the universe ever since Dick Seaton discovered its uses for FTL travel.
Credit enima, well this is just the beginning, give them time to get a little more hungry...
To CNBS:
Well, they put up an auction sign in front of our condo complex. Since they've been sitting on 70+ REO's with unpaid HOA dues for 4 months, that's good.
As well, the side walk trash is getting tonier. With all the move outs etc., the left behind furniture and stuff is both growing in quantity and quality.
As many are elderly and finding their 401k's depleted, they are moving in with their kids, and that means closer family ties.
But too, many are younger folks who were tied up employment wise to the real estate bubble, moving in with the folks, but the same benefits accrue. The fit hits the shan when you're my age and are in between both moves. Oh well, que sera sera.
But you all on CNBS are doing a fine job. You can get a feel for how well you're doing on the comment section of Calculated Risk
, if you're interested. My handle is Comrade Misean is Dope. Say hi to the all the folks there. I still like Mark Haines.
Cheers,
Nostrovia,
Silver lining I sent to Erin: "Sales of torches and pitchforks have increased at our local hardware store."
Bankers in handcuffs...that's what most Americans really want to see. This kind of behavior is utterly disgusting. The biggest mistake that the new administration could make is not taking this seriously enough. If they can send Martha Stweart to prison for dumping some obscure stock, they can certainly go after a few of these fat cats.
witch-hunts are fun to watch, as long as their focus is confined/constrained
i didn't speak up when they came for you.............no who will speak up for me when they come for me??
franko | 02.12.09 - 1:55 pm | #
I'm willing to take my chances. By the way, witch-hunts are for things that aren't real (malevolent magical workers), this is more of a lynch mob for a horse thief- plenty of room for abuse, but does discourage bad behavior. Those playing the 'class warfare' card are acting like robbing a bank for a few thousand is more despicable than robbing it of billions. The bankers still don't think they've done anything wrong, it was just business as usual, and only a series of unfortunate events caused the loses, why should they be expected to suffer?
LMAO Misean, EXCELLENT job!
U.S. Treasury Provides Interim Guidance on Executive Compensation Provisions in Emergency Economic Stabilization Act
McDermott - Newsletters - U.S. Treasury Provides Interim Guidance on Executive Compensation Provisions in Emergency Economic Stabilization Act
In addition, a TAAP Participating Institution (whether publicly traded or privately held) may not deduct executive compensation in excess of $500,000 or golden parachute payments to SEOs, and any golden parachute payments will result in a 20 percent excise tax to the SEO (Section 302 of EESA). Notice 2008-94 provides guidance regarding these restrictions under Section 162(m)(5) and Section 280G(e) of the Internal Revenue Code, including how to determine the following:
The duties of compensation committees with respect to incentive compensation, such as identifying unnecessary and excessive risks, reviewing compensation arrangements with the institutions senior risk officer(s) and certifying their review of SEC incentive compensation arrangements
How the recovery of bonus and incentive compensation under the CPP is broader than the clawback provision under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (e.g., it includes all SEOs, applies to public and private companies, does not require an accounting restatement and does not contain a time-limit on clawbacks)
What constitutes an involuntary termination that is subject to the golden parachute prohibitions
Oh please break head and shoulders,please please please.
Angry Saver(Excellent) writes:
\t99% of financial innovations are inflationary shams (naked derivatives for example). Bonuses based on these shams are absolutely absurd.
Adding more money to an existing amount of goods & services is wealth dilution, not wealth creation.
Wall street is the distributor of central bank and government inflation.
Will CNBC, Cramer, and the like be held accountable for telling people to ride it out - we've hit bottom - it's just a cycle? That Erin bitch makes my skin crawl.
Whenever I read 'stress test',
Joanna | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:28 pm | #
When I read that, I laugh, more stress than they have now? How do you stress a banker? The same way you make a hormone.
Dear Mr Cuomo & Staff
Please learn how to produce a chart, rather than using more space to convey less information on the bonus distributions.
EvilHenryPaulson | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:03 pm | #
Yeah, I kept thinking: "Hey, this looks like a Power Law Graph!", and wondered when he was gonna stop boring me detailing the long tail...
Correcting myself, it does look like the taxpayers will suffer a loss even if it hasn't occurred yet.The $20B loan from TARP was just a part of the deal that Paulson approved. The other part:
The Bank of America rescue calls for the government to share in losses on $118 billion in residential and commercial mortgages, derivatives and corporate debt. Bank of America will absorb the first $10 billion of any losses, the government takes the next $10 billion, and the government 90 percent of any remainder. Bank of America said the rescue package will help it operate as normally as possible.I'd sure like to see the contract between BofA and Treasury on this deal, especially the representations made and the remedies Treasury may have. Paulson did include remedies, didn't he?
"...results in relatively small amounts estimated at approximately $91,000 per employee."
No kidding? He actually said that. Won't hear that quote on CNN.
witch-hunts are fun to watch, as long as their focus is confined/constrained
franko | 02.12.09 - 1:55 pm | #
They could start blaming everything on the short sellers. Weirder things have happened in history.
90 minutes m/l to go
where do we finish?
do we break the critical support level of 800 on the S&P?
I gotta trillion dollar Zimbabwe dollar bill, who wants part of it or all of it?
this is gonna get ugly at the end.
of course I could be wrong.
Most of the big bucks paid out were contractually guaranteed bonuses paid to GS people brought over by Thain. Unless the government wants to start voiding legal employment contracts, and I doubt they'll go there, this is all huffing and puffing with no substance. I don't work for MER, but I think you'll find the average employee there didn't get much in the way of a bonus, and is as livid about what when down as everyone else.
calhousingbear writes:
I think the real issue is on what should bonuses be paid? Should they be paid when the trade is made or should they be made when the value of the trade on which they are paid a bonus is realized?
You know what, this is the same issue that came out upon the Enron debacle. The "deal" makers at Enron got all their bonuses up front in structuring a "deal" for the company. Maybe Skilling started the practice (getting paid upfront on estimated value of a deal might even have been his condition for joining Enron from McKinsey, I'm not sure), but it got to be the Enron culture. Then when the deals failed to perform pro forma, too bad, the money still belonged with the deal maker.
Nearly always these deal makers had everyone else so intimidated with riducule. Oh, if you have to question, you don't get it, you're not bright, and so on.
@#&#&$@@&#@&#&@(#()(#)@)#)@)#)@))(#(#@)#$(&$()$#&$#(
Send these bleeping people to jail.
They should not have jobs or bonuses for bankrupting their damn comapnies, taking my money and then paying themselves a big fat check. Does anyone of these thieves realize they are destroying whatever is left of democracy in America. The US is a Kleptcocracy and will be destroyed unless some justice returns very very soon.
Turbo: they already have broken the contract, and this is a break that goes way back, think Magna Carta.
CK,
TY, I did send it.
Nostrovia,
Under what legal grounds could they claw back bonuses anyways?? This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #
For the Board members--cause of action could be breach of fiduciary duties; for upper management, fraud.
Why should coming up with causes of action and/or crimes be any problem for a Congress that passed the Patriot Act & Military Commissions Act? The latter authorized the Executive to detain anyone (including US citizens in the US), indefinitely, without filing charges (or telling the detained person what those charges are), without access to legal assistance. As it is, the FBI could get secret warrants to obtain all of the banksters financial information, personal information, search their many residences, vehicles, planes, etc., without having to reveal that they're doing so.
Just have to utter the magic words: threat to national/homeland security.
Or assisting, connected to, in communication with, etc., terrorists.
I understand the Obama administration is following in the bloody footsteps of the Bush Administration in refusing to grant access (by the prisoners' lawyers) to information allegedly supporting charges against some of the remaining Gitmo prisoners. So, what's the problem? I'm sure a secret search of bankster financial records, etc., would yield something that could be considered fraud, etc.
Bond sales a success according to CNBC! See, there's the silver lining for Erin!
vtv,
"Turbo: they already have broken the contract, and this is a break that goes way back, think Magna Carta."
I hate going back that far, too much stress on the flux capacitor.
Nostrovia,
I assumed you did Misean, which is why I just turned CNBC on, I'm sure they'll read yours! BWAHAHAHA
Whenever I read 'stress test', I think of what the doctor does with the heart monitor & a treadmill
I always remembered a stress test being something like when norm abrahms from new yankee workshop goes into a laminated beam manufacturer and they put the beam under some horrifc load, and you get to see real mayhem as splinters and particles fly everywhere.
Is that the kind of stress test were going to do? And if so, where can I sit to get the best view?
The bonus amounts are bad enough, but that these are rewards for bankrupting the financial system is staggering. Do you suppose Bin Laden is sitting in a cave lamenting "Why didn't I think of this??"?
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 2:30 pm | #
Now THAT is a great obscure science fiction reference...
Not sure if anyone else has noted this yet, but CR is now on CL:
craigslist | Page Not Found
NoVa, that you?
Ship the few who received the most to a small island and detonate a nuke above it. Make it part of nuclear arms reduction.
"Tim writes:
Erin has requested that her viewers email her with silver linings they have found in their neighborhoods:
streetsigns@cnbc.com
Tim | 02.12.09 - 2:17 pm |"
Erin,
The Mother of all silver linings has got to be that the economic catastrophe has virtually solved the illegal alien crisis.
50% of all construction jobs were don by illegal aliens. They no longer have jobs in the industry and illegal immigration is now a net outflow from our country. I just thank God every day for solving the illegal alien crisis for us.
Most of the big bucks paid out were contractually guaranteed bonuses paid to GS people brought over by Thain. Unless the government wants to start voiding legal employment contracts, and I doubt they'll go there, this is all huffing and puffing with no substance.
That is exactly why they should have been allowed to fail. In bankruptcy, all such contract issues become moot.
I hate going back that far, too much stress on the flux capacitor.
Nostrovia,
\t Comrade Misean is Dope | \t \t \t \t02.12.09 - 2:39 pm | #
## I go way back, like a rocking chair. Maybe your capacitor needs a new disgronification gear.
Bin Laden is laying in a hole in the ground, not thinking, because he's been dead for 6 years.
disgronification
volker the viking | 02.12.09 - 2:41 pm | #
I caught that!
Goldman Sachs Group Inc:
SAYS NO EMERGENCY INVESTOR MEETING WAS CONVENED TUESDAY
SAYS FINANCIAL SPONSOR CLIENTS INVITED BY BANKERS 3 WEEKS AGO
SPOKESMAN SAYS DINNER WAS HOSTED TUESDAY FOR 30 PVT EQUITY, HEDGE FUND
clients
SAYS "THERE WAS NO SECRET EMERGENCY MEETING," CNBC REPORT WAS WRONG
Business finance news - currency market news - online UK currency markets - financial news - Interactive Investor
Sorry MOFO's, we don't believe you because we don't trust you.
Wake the fuck up people, Martha Stewart is the model and she is the precedent; she lied, that's why she went to jail. It's simple, these pigs will eventually go to jail, or Obama will look like a traitor to America.
On June 4, 2003, Stewart was indicted by the government on nine-counts including charges of securities fraud and obstruction of justice. Stewart voluntarily stepped down as CEO and Chairwoman of MSLO but stayed on as chief creative officer. She went on trial in January 2004. Prosecutors showed that Peter Bacanovic, Stewart's broker at Merrill Lynch, ordered his assistant to tell Stewart that the CEO of ImClone, Samuel D. Waksal, was selling all his shares in advance of an adverse Food and Drug Administration ruling. The FDA action was expected to cause ImClone shares to decline. [11] After a highly publicized, five-week jury trial that was the most closely watched of a wave of corporate fraud trials, Stewart was found guilty in March 2004 of conspiracy, obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators and sentenced in July 2004 to serve a five month term in a federal correctional facility and a two year period of supervised release (to include five months of home confinement)
i didn't speak up when they came for you.............no who will speak up for me when they come for me??
franko | 02.12.09 - 1:55 pm | #
I would speak up if they came for you. I didn't speak up when they came for Timothy McVeigh. I won't speak up for the robber barons.
volker the viking
fwiw it might rest @ 806 or 807
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
Turbo writes:
"Most of the big bucks paid out were contractually guaranteed bonuses paid to GS people brought over by Thain. Unless the government wants to start voiding legal employment contracts, and I doubt they'll go there, this is all huffing and puffing with no substance. I don't work for MER, but I think you'll find the average employee there didn't get much in the way of a bonus, and is as livid about what when down as everyone else.
Turbo | 02.12.09 - 2:36 pm |"
And what illegal contract could give bonuses to employees responsible for billions of dollars in losses to shareholders and the public via TARP et al. Just because some lawyers wrote some illegal contract, does not make it a valid contract. It is this kind of entitlement that these CEOs and high flying managers have written to themselves on these contracts that needs to be reformed. Apologizing for it because it meets a contractual obligation is pathetic. Look for the skim, bribes, payoffs, etc. that were involved when those contracts were written. Some people need to be fired and imprisoned.
I think the Dows left shoulder is broken...we need EMTs stat...
Maybe your capacitor needs a new disgronification gear.
volker the viking
Ummm. Did I miss something while in the transmogrifier? Hobbes?
It's starting to look like Tarp II is creating the same sort of market implosion that Tarp I did.
Is the honeymoon officially over?
Under what legal grounds could they claw back bonuses anyways?? This sounds great in theory, but in practice it will be virtually impossible to confiscate the loot.
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #
Using RICO, they could conceivably take back the loot and then some.
"SAYS NO EMERGENCY INVESTOR MEETING WAS CONVENED TUESDAY"
(okay boys the Feds are on the way lets turn this shit into gold...I want everything labled T1. Got it. Make it happen. You have 24 hours!)
Half of all CDOs of ABS have failed.
Johnny Lee | 02.12.09 - 2:21 pm | #
That should really help with stress testing and pricing of Level III assets! At least half of the "pricing problem" has solved itself.
this is all huffing and puffing with no substance. I don't work for MER, but I think you'll find the average employee there didn't get much in the way of a bonus
Turbo | 02.12.09 - 2:36 pm | #
Clearly it's not about "the average employee there." Let's start with the 4 guys who split $121 million.
In my mind it's also about Paulson. What info was he given? How could he bind the U.S. to take 90% of the losses [I know they've done 90% before] on a package that must have included some MER derivates?
What does the contract say and why hasn't it been published?
Yup, if MER had of been allowed to fail, all those guaranteed contracts would have been thrown in with all the other creditors trying to pick over the carcass. One silver lining is that the vast majority of the large payouts would have been in MER stock, now BAC stock. If MER (and WFC) end up forcing the nationalization of BAC, then those big payouts will be pretty much wiped out anyway.
Dear Michael:
Thanks for your comment and I have a sliver lining for you. You know all those shovel ready projects in Barack's stimulus package...guess who will benefit?
Erin,
The Mother of all silver linings has got to be that the economic catastrophe has virtually solved the illegal alien crisis.
50% of all construction jobs were don by illegal aliens....
Michael | 02.12.09 - 2:41 pm | #
Martha Stewart is the model and she is the precedent;
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 2:43 pm | #
Yup, she used to pimp for Kmart, lied, went to jail, and now pimps for Macy's...
Can we crash this sucker already and move on?
I caught that!
\t Comrade Terry | \t \t \t \t02.12.09 - 2:42 pm | #
## I'm sorry. Didjaknowtheyhavepillsforthatnow?
Gene, the Odyssey is dying. From my chair here, this is the last option!
We just lost the moon boys.
When will we see banksters in soupline?
Asun | 02.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #
For Lobster Bisque?
CNBC is in deep trouble. In its eternal quest to feature excess across the globe to marvel at and worship, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find.
What about the BRICs?
LMAO!!!!!!!!
"Michael writes:
"Tim writes:
Erin has requested that her viewers email her with silver linings they have found in their neighborhoods:
streetsigns@cnbc.com
Tim | 02.12.09 - 2:17 pm |"
Erin,
The Mother of all silver linings has got to be that the economic catastrophe has virtually solved the illegal alien crisis.
50% of all construction jobs were done by illegal aliens. They no longer have jobs in the industry and illegal immigration is now a net outflow from our country. I just thank God every day for solving the illegal alien crisis for us.
Michael | 02.12.09 - 2:41 pm |"
I am so baaaaad.
Get that FUCKING Money Back for these sczbuckets
Businesspersons Beware: Lying is a Crime
The rules regarding lying in business in the U.S. are currently being vigorously enforced.
Businesspersons Beware: Lying is a Crime - Graziadio Business Report
In recent corporate scandals, some executives have learned the hard way that lying is still a crime in corporate America. Martha Stewart was accused of selling her ImClone stock allegedly after receiving insider information. However, she was not convicted of securities fraud. She was instead convicted for lying. In addition, Computer Associates executives were indicted and some have already pleaded guilty for lying to their own companys attorney during an internal investigation when their lies were passed on by their attorney to the government.
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators
Here we go boyz...support levels are in sight...
Yep, Martha crochets in a minsec prison and Oprah picks up some market share. Not exactly a massive change in the system.
Real change would amount to turning the banks into utilities, and banksters into bureauucrats, not deal makers. Taleb is calling for this, but Washington is not having any. I seriously doubt you'll see mass bankster imprisonments-- just a few hundred token sacrifices, at the most.
A Boulder High student group is pushing to rename the school after a hot new historic figure: Barack Obama. I hope he can live up to the HYPE ... Students: Change Boulder High name to Barack Obama High : Updates : The Rocky Mountain News
"Using RICO, they could conceivably take back the loot and then some."
They could take the townhouses, the yachts, the limos, the planes... everything.
Section 1505 of Title18 renders obstruction of an agency proceedings illegal. It states:Whoever, with intent to avoid, evade, prevent, or obstruct compliance, in whole orin part, with any civil investigative demand duly and properly made under theAntitrust Civil Process Act, willfully withholds, misrepresents, removes from anyplace, conceals, covers up, destroys, mutilates,alters, or by other means falsifies anydocumentary material, answers to written interrogatories, or oral testimony, whichis the subject of such demand; or attempts to do so or solicits another to do so . . .shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years . . . or both.Thus, to be convicted of obstruction of agency proceedings, a defendant must have 1) intended tointerfere with the proceedings and2)withheld, misrepresented, removed fromany place, concealed,covered up, destroyed, mutilated, altered or falsified any documentary material, answers to writteninterrogatories, or oral testimony.
ection 1001 ofTitle 18 prohibits any personfrom (1) knowingly and wilfully; (2) mak[ing] any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulentstatement or representation; (3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative,or judicial branch of the Government of the United States.
Cuomo has been a very pleasant surprise, picking up Spitzer's mantel.
This guy could run for president if he decided to go after Fed policy makers, Paulson and Geithner, FreddieFanny, et all. I know it won't happen, but that would be a hell of a move.
Yes, but those folks NEED those bonuses... in order to keep up with the Joneses. $500,000 means they can't pay their bills: the $40K nanny is necessary, the 3 different ball gowns per year are necessary, etc.
This isn't to cry crocodile tears for the lavish lifestyles... Rather, the question is why life has become so expensive for bankers?
Or for literary agents who now can't afford to pick up the check at the fancy restaurant for their clients?
None of these people THINK they're rich. They just need a lot of money to maintain the "average" lifestyle of someone in their social station.
Come to think of it, how many literary agents does the world really need? Aren't some of these people just functionally useless?
It seems to me sometimes that the entire economy of New York City is based upon social displays of wealth... while adding very little of actual value to the nation's economy, except for whatever excess dollars the froth throws off.
Frasier hasn't even hit the ground yet.
Most of the big bucks paid out were contractually guaranteed bonuses paid to GS people brought over by Thain.
Turbo | 02.12.09 - 2:36 pm | #
That's strange... on Nov 5, 2008, Merrill was claiming that they couldn't tell anything about the size of the bonuses, because "the details hadn't been determined". Unless they wrote a lot of contracts between Nov 5 and Dec 8, either they knew about the bonuses and held back (as they were "contracturally guaranteed") or there weren't any contracts here, just executive decisions.
The Martin Act should be able the figure this out for us, if they insist on pushing for the truth.
Disgrontification, transmorgifiers,...TARP I, TARP II,...
All these cats out of the bag, and all I have is a screw driver.
Well, it is a sonic screwdriver...
Nostrovia,
18 U.S.C. 1505
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 73 > § 1505Prev | Next
§ 1505. Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees
US CODE: Title 18,1505. Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees
Whoever, with intent to avoid, evade, prevent, or obstruct compliance, in whole or in part, with any civil investigative demand duly and properly made under the Antitrust Civil Process Act, willfully withholds, misrepresents, removes from any place, conceals, covers up, destroys, mutilates, alters, or by other means falsifies any documentary material, answers to written interrogatories, or oral testimony, which is the subject of such demand; or attempts to do so or solicits another to do so; or
Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.
ok....prepare yourselves for a nasty rant
Ken Griffen, the founder of Citadel, stressed the need not merely to fix the prices of the securitized bonds, but also that any plan must stabilize the root cause of the problem - the mortgages themselves. And he came up with several ideas to spur homeownership that could revive the housing market
what the fucking fuck! ken mc fucking griffen, you piece of lying , losing shit hedge dope, you lost ten billion or so, and your proposing a 'FIX' for the prices of bonds?
Get the fuck out.
I'm prepared now to find a nice rusty stake and plant it right thru this guys piehole.
Ok, i feel better now.
I think I might win lawyerliz's "When will the dow hit 6K" contest. I gave it two weeks...
Latter-day Moloch
The result of the bailouts and stimulus packages will be a vast expansion of government debt, and a serial halving of the rate of interest to accommodate it, followed by the escalation of the liquidation value of total debt to the quadrillion and quintillion dollar range and beyond.
There is no trade-off between growth and debt. Under the regime of irredeemable currency, debt is no longer a servant. It is a Moloch, devouring its children.
"Growth and Debt: Is There a Trade-Off?" by Antal E. Fekete. FSO Editorial 02/12/2009
Look lotsa unemployed banksters now. Give 'em a break.
Barley | 02.12.09 - 1:48 pm | #
I wouldn't call them unemployed. I would call them the 'idle rich.' I would LIKE to call them prisoners, convicts, enemy combatants...
aClem | 02.12.09 - 1:58 pm | #
unfortunately lots of the unemployed bankers are tellers and other low level types, not the ones who were getting the mega bucks.
Erin,
The realtor lady that sold me my house in 2004- now unemployed just gave me a handy for $2. Now thats a silver lining!
Enron world: the entire economy consists of people sitting in front of computer screens opening accounts and filling them with phony money
PALO ALTO, CA - An international mathematics research team announced today that they had discovered a new integer that surpasses any previously known value âby a totally mindblowing sh-tload." Project director Yujin Xiao of Stanford University said the theoretical number, dubbed a âstimulus," could lead to breakthroughs in fields as diverse as astrophysics, quantum mechanics, and Chicago asphalt contracting.
good one. HT LGF
Well, it is a sonic screwdriver...
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope
.
A breeze, a flashing light, and far off, a wheezy WheeOP, WheeOP, WheeOP...
Geithner's Bank Plan Led To Hasty Goldman Meeting - Yahoo! Finance
DOWN GOES FRAZIER
DOWN GOES FRAZIER
I've got some optimistic data
US Census Bureau survey of retail shows January was up
&
macroblog of Atlanta Fed shows optimistic side of credit spreads and Fed balance sheet
BelieverJeff,
"The realtor lady that sold me my house in 2004- now unemployed just gave me a handy for $2. Now thats a silver lining!"
What, are you Elvis' understudy?
Nostrovia,
7 handle today (on the S&P) and the first round is on me!
A Boulder High student group is pushing to rename the school after a hot new historic figure: Barack Obama. I hope he can live up to the HYPE
Actually has a nice sort of ring to it:
Hoover II High School
I think I might win lawyerliz's "When will the dow hit 6K" contest. I gave it two weeks..
Comrade Kristina | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:53 pm | #
My house address starts with a 6 handle. If it ever closes on my number, I am getting my drink seriously ON.
Hoover II: Electric Boogaloo
Double Bottom?
So many families are now facing financial ruin. Many will never recover financially or emotionally.
Ponzi and Madoff are pikers compared to the fleecing that wall street has given main street.
We can't afford any more financial "innovation."
where's timmay?
"An international mathematics research team announced today that they had discovered a new integer that surpasses any previously known value âby a totally mindblowing sh-tload." Project director Yujin Xiao of Stanford University said the theoretical number, dubbed a âstimulus," could lead to breakthroughs in fields as diverse as astrophysics, quantum mechanics, and Chicago asphalt contracting."
They should build a space ship out of that...
Nostrovia,
Somebody wake up Timmy.
Silver lining I sent to Erin: My sales in "Jump Banker, Jump!" protests signs in NY are through the roof!
Thats some mighty fine downward action we got going. Would be interesting to see it continue till close...
Erin said to remember you are only supposed to send silver linings, nothing bad!
My house address starts with a 6 handle. If it ever closes on my number, I am getting my drink seriously ON.
Joanna | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:57 pm | #
Three or four digits?
Hartford loses access to U.S. lending facility, shares
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hartford Financial Services Group Inc lost access to a U.S. commercial paper lending facility after recent debt rating downgrades, it said in a regulatory filing, and shares dropped 11 percent.
In the filing on Thursday with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Hartford (NYSE:HIG), a large life and property insurer, said it will have to repay the $375 million borrowed under a federal program.
That happened after its commercial paper ratings were downgraded by Moody's Investor Services on February 6, and by Standard & Poor's and Fitch on February 9.
As a result it will have to tap other sources of cash to repay the debt, a potential thorn as its capital had already eroded due to large losses over the past two quarters.
Jesse's Café Américain
Disgrontification, transmorgifiers,...TARP I, TARP II,...
All these cats out of the bag, and all I have is a screw driver.
Well, it is a sonic screwdriver...
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope
Gosh almighty did someone ever open your anxiety closet.
Damn, it is almost 3 and I would kill for a ciggerette.
Anyone ready to lynch some bankers, yet?
Really, its the 7 handle on the S&P that matters.
omg misean
they are reading yours!
\t7 handle today (on the S&P) and the first round is on me!
crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 2:56 pm | #
If it drops that far, that pennant will go limp. Look out below!
she read it --
BWAHAHAHA, she only read the "tonier trash" part...
I mean I read it
Wow, from the ft link upthread about CDOs of ABSs
I would love to see the individual CDO builders defend their models in court against some fraud charges
By their records, the first three years of the market saw less than 100 deals sold per year and less than 10 per cent of those have defaulted. The number of deals done rose to 133 in 2005, less than 20 per cent of which defaulted, and 89 in just the first half of 2006, about one-third of which have defaulted.However, the real peak of the market saw 147 deals done in the second half of 2006 and 172 done in the first half of 2007 â of which 68 per cent and 76.2 per cent, respectively, have now defaulted.
That is exactly why they should have been allowed to fail. In bankruptcy, all such contract issues become moot.
And, you can clawback payments for several years.
"Gosh almighty did someone ever open your anxiety closet."
Noooo...really?
I didn't detect any Dalek...scone?
Nostrovia,
"It seems to me sometimes that the entire economy of New York City is based upon social displays of wealth... while adding very little of actual value to the nation's economy, except for whatever excess dollars the froth throws off."
The upstate perspective, always narrowed by resentment. The well-to-do grab the media attention here, but with 8 million plus folks, you can count the teachers, doctors, cops, transit workers, medical researchers, firemen, et. al. who make up the majority here.
I don't give a damn who makes how much bank, just don't ask me to pay for it.
they should force all the people who received bonuses to invest it with Madoff
Maria states: we have some weakness this afternoo
Guess Not
CK,
"omg misean
they are reading yours!"
NFW!
Eff...lunch meeting...GRRR!
Nostrovia,
147 deals done in the second half of 2006 and 172 done in the first half of 2007 â of which 68 per cent and 76.2 per cent, respectively, have now defaulted
defaults you can believe i
Hey there's another Tim. I was here first. 2 years ago.
BWAHAHAHA, she only read the "tonier trash" part...
Was that supposed to be a silver lining? Better dumpster diving! (snerk!)
"Merrill Lynch and Bank of America timed the bonuses in such a way as to force taxpayers"
What a congame Congress is playing. The taxpayers told Congress and Paulson "NO" to the bailout. Congress/Paulson/Bush unanimously agreed to gang-rape the taxpayers and ceremoniously handed the banksters $$$billions of our future earnings. The banksters took the loot and thanked the congress dudes for extending Spring Break. Another edition of BANKS GONE WILD. Party-On Dude.
.
.
Let 'em Roll!!
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(heads)
.
.
The fight for 800 is going to be quite interesting in the last hour. If 800 goes, all bets are off as to where the index ends up.
I didn't detect any Dalek...scone?
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope
.
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Daleks got all exploded and everything last week. The cloned Doctor went all Buffy on their ass. But one of the Companions finally gets a piece 'o that...
Weakness is after the 400 point drubbing on tuesday
Erin said to remember you are only supposed to send silver linings, nothing bad!
Comrade Kristina | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 3:00 pm | #
Thanks for that CK, I am shaking with laughter!
If we go -300 then I bet we go +600 on the Vistors Staring at You Online Counter.
ce, she really did say it, then proceeded to read part of Miseans rant...You just can't make this shit up...
misean, can i haz autograph?
Fair Economist writes:
That is exactly why they should have been allowed to fail. In bankruptcy, all such contract issues become moot.
And, you can clawback payments for several years.
Fair Economist | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 3:05 pm | #
Thanks for clarifying that. Again what is being protected by these actions of propping up these companies. I think it is becoming clearer every day. There is no shame.
7700 we barely knew you...
Do you suppose Bin Laden is sitting in a cave lamenting "Why didn't I think of this??"?
In a roundabout way, he did. He handed Bush an unprecedented excuse for a powergrab, and being a batshit sociopath executive type trying to live down a life long inferiority complex, he of course took it.
I don't credit bin laden for detailed planning ahead here, but seeing the family he's from, he might have had a gut feeling it could work.
I also suspect (like someone above) that he's dead. Especially since the audio on his last tape did not match his lips.
Sorry to continue OT. I could rant about being trapped in a f*cking kleptocracy, but that's well covered.
Weakness is after the 400 point drubbing on tuesday
\t Tim
Tim | 02.12.09 - 3:08 pm | #
Again history repeats:
Every time Hoover opened his mouth during the first Great Depression the markets tanked.
Every time Hoover opened his mouth during the first Great Depression the markets tanked.
ac | 02.12.09 - 3:12 pm | #
Is Bush speaking?
sorry Tim I'll change my name -
Obama Admin Losi
New lows for the day for GS...
well I said S & P might rest @806 - 807...we may break 806.
We need a new rumor quick. Did somebody say, "no mark to market"?
Heh GH... wondering if the program buys start kicking in with cracking 7700...
we got it - free mortgages for all
F is for Friday or Fail? I forget.
cnbc dsays obama going to dshave princvipal and help people via a means test. Desperation time
uh that would be yes...
RE 30 year auction:
something about accepting less then was tendered has me believing that even the "plenty of indirect bidders" are trying to force yields up.
It appears that it went ok...however alot of the tendered bids weren't what the Treasury would like to be sending out the door yield-wise. Hence the need for these indirect bids to lower the issued return that ultimately goes out the door.
In any case I wouldn't be rushing to put my money in 30 year based on what the 10 returns......not much for 20 years of hold and hope.....
That how I see it...
Ciao
MS
Retail is holding up really well. I think it was a CR post one time, and I pointed out the declines were mostly gasoline stations.
ADVANCE MONTHLY SALES FOR RETAIL AND FOOD SERVICES:
Latest Release
The bad news then is that there have been any secondary job cuts yet.
cramdowsn will not solve the problem -- no offense to Tanta viewpoint...doesn;t shaving princvipal lock people into a house they may not want and lower the values for everyone else? strong logic O ma
Perp Walk! Perp Walk!
The people demand their Perp Walks!
The bad news then is that there have been any secondary job cuts yet.
EvilHenryPaulson
I now have to pump my own gas now...does that count?
@Energy,
Wondering the same thing. I have to think that program buys are the reason we haven't had any circuit breakers so far. Steep selloffs trigger huge program buys...if the programs are the same, it triggers a rally and the big money players win.
Will someboby please just f%$@ing shoot Frazier?!?
The well-to-do grab the media attention here, but with 8 million plus folks, you can count the teachers, doctors, cops, transit workers, medical researchers, firemen, et. al. who make up the majority here.
Yes, but NYC is a place that ordinary people like those teachers, doctors, cops and transit workers can't even live any more. City residents should feel resentful.
Anonymous writes:
...Beware: Lying is a Crime ...
Really ?
And I thought it's Americas favorite past-time .
(Working-time too. (I if they work.))
TCA | 02.12.09 - 3:18 pm
soda everywhere...lol
3:15 looks like the Market finally opened..
Margin party of 5 your table is ready!,Margin party of 5 your table is ready!
U.S to subsidize homeowners as per CNBC.
Bottomlesssssss pit!!!!!!!!!!!
"10 01EvilHenryPaulson> Retail is holding up really well. I think it was a CR post one time, and I pointed out the declines were mostly gasoline stations."
EHP, do you have any idea WHY retail is holding up so well? Do we honestly believe government handouts are going to save them?
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 3:18 pm | #
Works until it doesn't, but if they can jam things up just enough to find a retail buyer...then jump in short and sell hard until the next trigger - rinse and repeat.
these attempts at pumping are getting more and more feeble. What we have not had, recently, is one of those outta nowhere intraday 400 point or so rally's...wonder if they are saving ammo. for that.
Ciao
MS
Fed Teat inelastic and milk not right temperature; TARP turns sour:
^N225: Basic Chart for NIKKEI 225 - Yahoo! Finance
Who Keeps Screwing Us Over? Hotlist
by Cenk Uygur
Thu Feb 12, 2009 at 11:05:52 AM PST
Daily Kos: State of the Nation
Excerpts:
I shouldn't be surprised by now. But I still was when I read the article this morning in the Washington Post explaining that the cap on executive pay has been removed from the stimulus bill. I knew what Congress was doing yesterday by bringing the Wall Street executives in and scolding them in public was a dog and pony show. But I had not realized how profoundly full of shit these politicians are.
They make a big display of yelling at the CEOs and then the very next day they quietly remove any cap on their compensation. These people are not on our side. This is why so many Americans are so damn frustrated. Everyone in power appears to be bought and paid for. There is a circle of people in DC and NY that keep passing the money around to one another and then come and collect it from us.
We're wasting our time here. Just nationalize the damn banks already. Almost all of the top economists are now in agreement that we should take this step. The people who put the money in are the people who own the company - that's how capitalism works. I'm a die-hard capitalist. I don't want the federal government owning banks for an extended period of time. But what's worse is to continue letting these bankers rob us of our money day in and day out while we sit around like fools.
I voted for Obama, but I did not loan out my intellect to him. I can still make up my own mind on whether he is right or wrong. And if he is participating in this, he is 100% wrong.
unfortunately lots of the unemployed bankers are tellers and other low level types, not the ones who were getting the mega bucks.
Dirk van Dijk | 02.12.09 - 2:53 pm | #
Unfortunately tellers are obsolete.
Unfortunately we have not socialized the profits realized by that development.
Today seems like a pretty critical day as far as the technicals go. Very close to support levels. If they break we plunge. If they hold, who knows??
Do we have any technical traders in the house? Whatever happened to Anonymouse?
Obama moratorium on FCs.
How about a moratorium on layoffs?
COMMAND ECONOMY!
citizen energyecon writes:
...but if they can jam things up just enough to find a retail buyer...then jump in short and sell hard until the next trigger - rinse and repeat...
The strategy of an accomplished dope !
Obama administration working on plan to subsidize mortgage payments. This is insanity.
Lynch Merrill. The rest will fall into line.
Here's your rumor: NEW developable land twice the size of Texas just discovered off the coast of California. Lots being sold now in a massive bidding frenzy. People are desperately trying to get over on canoes, surfboards, mattresses in a mad rush to claim prime ocean front real estate. Banks, retail chains, restaurants, strip clubs, everyone is euphoric about the growth opportunities.
Quotes:
"Builder: Its land. It needs a 5K sq ft. mansion. I'm doing it."
"Investor: Some say, it isn't there. But as long as the island builder stocks go up, I'm buying."
"A banker: we've flown over it on our jet, it was cloudy, but you could make out an incredibly beautiful coast line with just stunning beaches".
"Government official: the revenue potential is enormous. We're hiring thousands and expanding our pension benefits to get the best people".
"CR Reader: You mean this? You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
You morons.
What do I short.
Fed Teat inelastic and milk not right temperature; TARP turns sour
Burn baby, BURN!
Old:
"If you can't identify the sucker at the table you are the sucker."
New:
"If you ain't suckling you are the teat."
"How about a moratorium on layoffs?"
How about a moratorium on frowns?
Obama administration working on plan to subsidize mortgage payments. This is insanity.
Umm. Mortgage interest deduction?
eric in vegas --
Obama administration working on plan to subsidize mortgage payments.
Well, sure. Because what we need is an ownership society.
But I still was when I read the article this morning in the Washington Post explaining that the cap on executive pay has been removed from the stimulus bill. I knew what Congress was doing yesterday by bringing the Wall Street executives in and scolding them in public was a dog and pony show.
.
Yep. That's what I'm saying, too. Public wrist slapping, private... er, let's not even go there.
briwerk,
It's not sustainable, but it's aloft for now, and no the government can't keep the gravy train running unless it keeps up the $500bn per quarter pace Bush left office with.
I think February might just come and go calmly. It's a short month after all and it has a bank holiday, which makes numbers look better in a negative environment. Less time for MoM declines, less business days to process foreclosures, etc
Spring and Summer won't be pretty, by Fall there will be a diagnosis of economic ebola
How about a moratorium on moratoria?
"Obama administration working on plan to subsidize mortgage payments. This is insanity."
So now we get to pay other people's bad mortgages, as well as pay the bankers who made the bad loans.
You tax dollars at work.
147 deals done in the second half of 2006 and 172 done in the first half of 2007 â of which 68 per cent and 76.2 per cent, respectively, have now defaulted
I remember during that time nearly every Monday was up BIG because of some stupid private equity deal over the weekend. The market celebrated every time, and CNBC led the cheering section.
Umm. Mortgage interest deduction?
Basel Too
No its a new co-pay for your employer to contribute to. Just like health insurance your employer will now contribute up to 10% of your salary for housing assisstance
A plastic island of garbage sounds more sustainable then the economy right now, where do I get a boat?
...How about a mortatorium on pretty woman wearing clothes? That would get rid of my frown, too.
pca's call's were terrible, gav.
he was calling long at spu930.
he bailed, but still, how could you ever make that call.