The State+Municipal crunch caused by insurers, pensions, yadda yadda will be a juicy one Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine wants to require state and local politicians to gather competitive bids for buying everything from office supplies to pickup trucks -- just not necessarily for the financing. Corzine, a first-term Democrat and the former head of Goldman, Sachs & Co., says bond sales wouldnât be included in his push to end no-bid public contracts in his state. In the past year and a half, 95 percent of New Jerseyâs offerings were sold via negotiations. More than a dozen academic studies show that opening sales to competitive bidding saves taxpayers money.
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
"Just as we had a large overshooting to the upside. Is there any way to prevent going much further to the downside? That will cause tremendous harm to the U.S. economy, to the financial system and it's not necessary," he said.
Repost: Heeee's Baaack (his idea):
"Two ways to help homeowners directly would be to reduce taxes or to give cash grants similar to those given to disaster victims. Its important to recognize that there are a very large number of people who are in very major stress and having great difficulty in paying off their mortgages, Mr. Greenspan said. " Greenspan Urges U.S. to Help Those Facing Foreclosure - NY Times
why not for those of us who waited on the sidelines so that we could be responsible and purchase something we could actually afford? shultzie | 02.12.09 - 3:53 pm | #
Because you don't owe the banks their pound of flesh.
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
Wow. A little short sighted, no? Deflated levels, from when? Last year? How about we look back a little further in history. F'k this. Problem is that so many people are thinking this way.
Its quite possible that this isn't anything more than a press release to jam the market. None of the other programs had any real substance to them even though they sounded good at first blush.
As usual, it's help for the fools thay overpaid for their houses. No help for people that stayed away from the insanity the past few years and rented. No incentive at all for me to buy a house. I guess I'll sit even longer waiting for prices to come down since all this will do is draw it out even longer. Time to renew my lease!
IMO, this trial balloon gets shot down by the lawyers that have to vet it. With troubled owners that are delinquent, you at least have an objective standard to measure homeowners.
What is a workable standard for a financially troubled homeowner who's not delinquent that won't have so many exceptions as to swallow the standard?
What give up my bimmer, crackberry, digital HDTV, etc?
At least it is not a giveaway to everyone like buying down the rate. How many will fall into the category of "hardship to qualify" and want to continue being a debt slave. The best solution for those who will qualify will still be walking away.
What do you expect, lottery winnings are taxed as regular income in the United States despite the government already taxing via licenses. In the markets, 10% flat rate
Well, based on what happened with the Bush program that should save, oh maybe 52 households. nova | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 3:56 pm | #
And there's the reality of it. Need a harship excuse. Need a reappraisal of the property. Need appropriate DTI and LTV ratios. Need to wait months for government processing.
Bottom line: No one qualifies.
But it sounds nice to people who wish they would qualify
is SPX 666 some sort of satanic signal or just coincidence?
the man from nantucket
.
Shhhh..... don't wake Pavel, he'll start in with that 'you don't know the power of the dark side' shit, and there's 400 posts down the tubes.
Maybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way.
"aybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way."
Maybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way.
I used to think this was the case as well, but I think there will huge unintended consequences.
You don't come across bankers very often. They're just old white dudes on the television.
But when you find out that your neighbor, who has taken European vacations the past two summers and whose kid is in some prep school, is getting a subsidy, and you're not because you're fiscally conservative, well you become:
Seriously, don't they know that this will make things worse? All a subsidy does is prolong the problems. House prices are going to adjust back to the affordability level no matter what we do to manipulate it. We can either get it over with in the next 2 years or continue crap like this that extends it out 5 years....Jesus the government is filled with morons....
Sounds wonderful.....create a situation where a certain % of mortgage holders were still paying on the loan and give them an instant reason to create "distress"....
And release this news at just the time the market is about to fall off a cliff.
loaded up on some appropriate calls just in case this thing has legs.
Please!...there was no wealth it was all on paper....quite whining!...and if your 401k is down 70%...sorry your fault...I keep my money close....maybe next time....well consider it a lesson learned.
Oh
Today's pump job WAS brought to you by The "SHAM WOW!" Guy!
Let it run. And in a few days the market will realize that this only makes the problems worse....They can try to fight off nationalization as long as they want, but they will lose.
An oxymoron; "mortgage payments for troubled homeowners." It's typical obfuscation of the truth; tenants with mortgages held by the banks who own the titles until all debt is discharged. So, is this another congressional circuitous ponzi attempt to give the banks more taxpayer money?
house problems are a fraction of the problem. Don't threse guys listen to anoyone oustide thier loop? In the end this is all ending up on the govt balance sheet...
I hear you, but I am starting to just get pissed now. We need to take our medicine and make some tough decisions. You can't have a capitalist market where everyone wins.
If you bought a house and you cant afford it then sorry - you're done. If you're a bank that made bad loans - sorry. You're done.
I am tired of paying for other peoples mistakes and watching the market tank.
I understand that part of it however I'm speaking to the actual implementation of this.....should it actually be true.
Banks have no reason to do any mods. unless they have a situation that needs it. Now that is another argument because fundamentally they need it.... it's still tempting people to join in on the jingle-mail wave.
I think Obama and team see that 15-25% (or even more)further drops in home prices could be forthcoming, and if that happens, there is no saving the US (and some other countries) banking industry.
So, supply is already to large (and may get larger with more foreclosures) with no reasonable way to cut that supply, they must impact demand.
Demand SHOULD ultimately be determined by family incomes, rent/purchase ratios, buyer credit worthiness, and availability of credit. They can't increase incomes but they might be able to able to improve the availability of credit to credit-worthy buyers. Hence, the rumors. The banks won't do this on their own. If demand is to increase for housing purchase, the only agent left is the government (as in the stimulus to replace lost consumer demand and business income).
It sounds crazy, but I guess I'm ready to think about such a plan rather than see the entire banking industry gone because the banks mortagage assets are really only worth 10-30% of their original value. At those valuations, there isn't a bank in sight that is solvent if they have been involved in mortgage or CBMS. There isn't enough there (money) there (in the hands of either banks or the government).
The Troubled Homeowners Underwriting Desanitizer program (THUD) is designed to help people who, through no fault of their own, have sustained a hardship that no one coodanode would happen. These hapless souls are entitled to a deferral of a portion of their mortgage payment, but only if the current value of the house they purchased is still well above the principal amount owed on it and they do not own a Hummer, nor have any credit card debt, nor have taken a vacation outside of the continental United States in the past five years, and have never received public assistance at any time in their lives.
All eligible homeowners are encouraged to apply on the standardized 17 page application that we will be creating over the next few months in consulatation with the major banks who will in the end be responsible for determining what level of hardship allows one to a subsidy that may not exceed ten percent (10%) of the monthly mortgage payment for a period not to exceed twelve (12) months.
I sitting here on a growing pile of cash (which I've been saving for years while living in a grubby little cheap apartment), waiting for real estate prices to return to normalcy, so I can buy a house and start shopping at home depot, etc.
And the jerks in government want to use my taxes to keep RE prices artificially high?
You don't come across bankers very often. They're just old white dudes on the television.
But when you find out that your neighbor, who has taken European vacations the past two summers and whose kid is in some prep school, is getting a subsidy, and you're not because you're fiscally conservative, well you become:
Angry Saver.
Basel Too | 02.12.09 - 4:08 pm | #
You don't come across fiscally conservative individuals very often. They're just old dudes on the internet.
I predict a moderate rally for the SPX to the 860-875 range over the next 3-4 weeks, at that point the SPX will be above both the 50 and 100 day moving averages, for the first time since last June.
Could be the last great shorting opportunity of this bear.
CNBC shills are saying how this will help stabilize home prices. Why don't we just follow Pakistan's lead of setting a floor for stock prices to halt a plunge? Home Prices stabilized. Problem solved. We can move on to the next problem.
Just remember that this isn't a subsidy to homeowners. The homeowner doesn't really benefit at all here. It's just a subsidy to the banks and rentiers using the homeowner as a conduit to make it look less vile than it really is.
Just my two cents, I have a horrific mortgage that I got in 2007 after my Mom died leaving behind a mortgage. I had been her caregiver for over a year at the time so had no work history nor mortgage/rent history for that year. I am currently paying 10.22% and I have an ARM, it was that or lose the family house, all I had left from Mom and Dad. A new mortgage of even 5.5% would cut my housing monthly expenditure almost in half. Do you think I won't spend that extra 800 bucks per month?
Wow. I don't need to see any further details of such a morally corrupt concept. I do feel some pain for all the responsible folks out there working hard and paying their mortgage payments on time. This is like a punch in the gut to anyone fiscally responsible. Actually, doubly so because you end up paying more than that slob next door with the new pool and Hummer, not to mention that new plasma tv on his wall while the gov't helps him pay for his mortgage. This rewards irresponsible debtors, period.
Remember also that you can buy some magic plumber liquid to break up jambs in your toilet (or plunge in the old fashioned way), but you can't buy some bad-debt spot remover. That bad debt exceeds any feasible rescue with conventional means, like bankruptcy.
And yes, Virginia, there is no fairy wand that will make bad debt turn into a princess and coach.
Odd thing - Bloomberg had a good bit of this story hours and hours ago, but it had no evident impact. I hear CNBC people talking about an Dudley conference call, which could be why this more recent Reuters story has had greater impact.
CR,
I would not jump to the conclusion that the effort to bring down mortgage rates is dead. We had a Fed guy out yesterday (Evans? Maybe...) saying that he wants to see how the TALF works out before commencing purchases of long-dated Treasuries. Since TALF was delayed presumably to get MBS into it, it looks like Evans (?) is saying that the Fed is interested in jamming down mortgage rates, but step-wise.
circuit breaker days are not going to happen.....IMO
We should have had three or four by now. The quants. won't allow it to happen.
We might get close but unless some sort of major disturbance (ala 9/11) occurs then it's business as usual. IMO the system just won't allow it or they're toast.
If this happens O is an idiot! crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:11 pm | #
I actually feel bad for O. I still stand by my claim that Hoover's biggest mistake was getting elected and that Mr. O may have fallen into the same trap.
The Obama/Geithner spagetti approach - keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks - is highlighting the weakening inexperience of the new administration; perhaps they should seek more advice from the former Fed Chairman Volker vs the staining and harsh attitude of Summers.
Three consecutive days of DJIA closing below 8k.
1.41 | 02.12.09 - 4:14 pm | #
Yes, interesting point - last November we had two days close under 8K, and on the third went from being down 2% to ending up 6.5% and just over 8K at the close - November 21st.
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
"Just as we had a large overshooting to the upside. Is there any way to prevent going much further to the downside? That will cause tremendous harm to the U.S. economy, to the financial system and it's not necessary," he said.
"from their current, deflated levels"?!?!?!?! what the hell are these people smoking?
What is the value of all residential and commercial real estate in this country? I say the federal government buys it all. Then what can we blame for the bank failures.
Of course if you read over on Naked Capitalism, much of the bank bailout money is going into the operations involving CDOs, CDSs, and derivatives, which according to Yves FDIC et al do not have the expertise to audit. Apparently in one review Yves conducted the error in risk management involved 4 cells in a 60 page spreadsheet.
And republicans just take all my money and give it to those who already were filthy rich... and use the rest to murder brown peopele \t USA=CCCP USA=CCCP | 02.12.09 - 4:19 pm | #
Don't worry: Republicans are getting progressive and using unfunded tax cuts to bribe poor people as well as rich people now.
REBear writes:
"Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did."
O supported TARP 1 and voted for it.
REBear | 02.12.09 - 4:22 pm |
But Bush tricked showing them pictures of trucks designed as labs and rushed them into voting for TARP and an up or down vote...screw bipartisanship he said and left the dems outside... he scared everyone, that the market would collapse after Lincolns birthdsay if congress didnt give Bush his war on the economy....blah blah blah...
This is to be expected from a Democratic president.
Anyone who voted for O cannot be surprised or pissed.
Anonymous
Please remind us of our corporate presidential choices. There's one party and it the corporate party that owns 535 imbeciles.
The punchbowl has been moved from the red room to the blue room
Stick save. None of the normal "reversal day" metrics are anywhere near "reversal day" levels.
Meanwhile, across the pond, did anyone notice that the Bund auction failed for the second time in a row? Also of note was the raging plunge of both Asian and European markets earlier today.
There's a reason why that rumor was floated at the time that it was floated, and not sooner or later.
Also, the fact that HIG can no longer access relevant government assistance programs and will presumably become an early failure in the insurance sector, thus causing panic among everyone owning insurance products... Expired
... or that Dow chemical cut its dividend for the first time in nearly 100 years, and by almost 2/3...
This is to be expected from a Democratic president.
Anyone who voted for O cannot be surprised or pissed.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 4:17 pm | #
This will hopefully be my only political post on this subject....
As I recall, the McCain plan released last October involved buying out the existing mortgages at par (thus fully bailing out the lender) and rewriting the loans, now held by the government, with improved terms and lower monthly payments. On it's face it's hard to distinguish that from what was supposedly leaked today--the one major difference I suppose is that the banks would get paid out up front instead of having a guaranteed income stream, at interest, going forward. And, of course, that McCain's plan would have meant an enormous fiscal outlay up front instead of spreading it over the life of the loans.
The transfer of taxpayer funds to the banks is a bipartisan project.
Oh no. It does much more. It diverts financing away from small businesses. That will help small business owners decide whether or not to expand and invest.
"Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels."
Um, Lockhart, you mean still inflated levels. Early withdrawal | 02.12.09 - 4:25 pm | #
The solution is to devalue the debt via defaults. Even if that involves replacing it with new debt at a reduced principle.
You can't simultaneously support transparency in the financial system and also support inflating away debt.
inflation = deception and obscurity
That's what makes it so attractive to politicians - it lets them tax and spend without accountability. Likewise for Wall Street - it lets them siphon wealth out of the system without the general population realizing it.
Oil tumbles below $34 a barrel on economic fears
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Oil prices slid to a new low for the year Thursday because of growing doubts that the $789 billion stimulus package will reinvigorate the U.S. economy and demand for energy. Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Since I do have a large payment to make this year I am just livid about the goings on of the last several weeks. If I don't pay then "I really pay later".
Reminds me of last September when the DOW went from 10600 to 11400 in a couple of days. Everything was fixed then. IIRC that was when Paulson requested $700 billion to save the banks.
TPC writes:
Is it possible to rescind my Obama vote? He is off to an even more disastrous economic start than Bush....
TPC | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:34 pm | #
Is that true about Erin reading Misean's stuff live? Anyone got a link?
Wisdom Speaker - two threads back we did a number on Euro / US bonds. If you've got CR Companion, there's a lengthy, but of course thoroughly warranted, exchange between me, EHP, MS and ac. Maybe others too.
MS, I assume you and I are in the same boat with respect to our tax payments this year. I'm very tempted to take the money and run. At this rate, our gov will collapse soon anyways.
This is no longer a failing of the financial system. The tentacles of rot have taken hold of our political system as well.
The slippery slope of irresponsibility and moral hazard will take us off the cliff if we don't take our country back now.
Lots of smoke signaling here. It's all about expressing "concern," not much else. I'm seeing a pattern where the Obamaoids run things up the flagpole and then withdraw if there's too much howling from the masses.
Winston writes:
So, can I still buy a house I can't afford and qualify for the government handout? I've got my eye on a nice $700K house if someone else is paying.
Winston
If it's true that the market rallied off the lows on this plan, then I think it may be another buy the rumor, sell the news deal. Devil's in the details. Now doubt they rallied for "Hope Now."
So, how many years does this add to the housing price declines? 2 or 3 years? Rather than the axe, they're choosing to use the bowie knife. Nice choice there guys.
It's time to let the market adjust on its own. The manipulation needs to end.
@Counterpointer - Thanks; I had missed that thread. Real life is now very pressing. I posted mainly to try to put it all together for folks who might have actually thought the Obama proposal was genuine.
I don't care what financial position you are in today.. Just stop paying your mortgage now, I can't guarantee it but I bet you will have a good year of free living. This news will be good for a couple more million pissed off homeowners.. Start saving your monthly payment for the day when you will be able to buy homes for next to nothing. Unfortunately I saw this coming back in 2005 so my 900 sq ft. house has a mortgage of 250/month and 3/4 equity but I bet today is the last straw for many of the fiscally prudent. I know it is for my sibling living in Inland Empire.. He is done with this B.S.
I guess that woman on YouTube who was blathering about how now that Obama was elected she would be able to pay her mortgage and car payments was right.
If you want to stem the decline of house prices, you will need to literally vaporize ~20mn homes.
That's huge, think of how many states have less than 1mn people let alone households. It adds no real value. It's too big of a problem to tackle directly. Losses will be distributed whether the government cares or not.
briwerk writes:
"This is to be expected from a Democratic president."
Are you clueless? Bush was doing the exact same types of things, but with far less oversight. Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did.
briwerk | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:19 pm | #
If you have a $300,000 5% 30 year fixed mortgage which has a $1610 monthly payment in order to afford the house you need a $1200 monthly payment the principle would have to be reduced by $76,500.
If this happened anarchy would happen.
I don't think the numbers will work to make a big enough difference.
according to my read it certainly did. May be there was that one...and then another one for the rest of those "furiner's"..sort of "hey we aren't going to write them at what our own dealer's want" (which explains why the accepted amount was so low from the tender) So here's what we want to give you...take it."
Just speculating....'bout all I have at this point with anything they actually release. Someone who's been in the bond market for a while should be able to understand why the number's are so skewed.......no one's been able to come up with any clear reason.
What's this about someone stealing from ya today? Prose read on air?
I feel your pain. I went to Vegas last week and dropped a huge wad on black. The little ball had landed black three times in a row. I was certain I could almost double my money to pay for a family farm (someone elses farm, no one in my family owns a home). Wouldn't you know it, the little ball stopped on red. I was not aware of the potential losses I might face. I place the blame squarely on the smooth talking dealer. Now I'm in a real bind. I'm hoping you and many other taxpayers might convince the gubmint to subsidize the losses I have suffered due to my retarded wager.
Awful lot of noise here over a mortgage subsidy plan that is only "BEING CONTEMPLATED" and won't even come into being unless the mortgage industry voluntarily agrees "to a set of standards that will allow [the mortgage industry] to move quickly to modify many home loans".
This isn't rocket science. House prices are directly correlated to incomes. You can't prop up the prices unless you have some wonder drug that makes everyones income go up. The two will revert no matter what over time. The idea that we can manipulate the prices up is so idiotic.
And then you have his "stimulus" plan which is really just a bunch of pork and afew million jobs that will last 9 months.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that his first two major plans are disasters in the making.
This is all the same crap Japan tried. Give Obama a god damn history book!
You fucking morons who expect him to solve the last 30 years of idiotic supply side reagonomics in less than a month are fucking worthless
USA=CCCP | 02.12.09 - 4:42 pm | #
USA=CCCP, tell us what you really think
Sadly, even if the current administration makes the best possible policy decisions, the plane will probably still crash into the mountainside.
That's huge, think of how many states have less than 1mn people let alone households. It adds no real value. It's too big of a problem to tackle directly. Losses will be distributed whether the government cares or not. Save the energy for an alternate vector.
EvilHenryPaulson
.
That would put the local municipalities and counties an the hook for cleanup. Never mind the environmental costs. Landfills would be overwhelmed, and digging new landfills can be highly problematic. Giving them to the highest bidder avoids some of that extra shitload of costs.
Unless you have a plasma weapon you're not telling me about.
The housing market is like the stock market, just slower. To make money, you need to buy when the price is going up. If the price is going down, you need to SELL! NOW!
GM Bondholders Should Get 50 Cents on the Dollar, JPMorgan Says
By Caroline Salas and Jeff Green
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. bondholders should recover 50 cents on the dollar based on the concessions being made by unions, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.
GM is negotiating a debt restructuring with bondholders and union officials as part of the terms of $13.4 billion in government loans. The Detroit-based automaker has to report its progress to the U.S. Treasury on Feb. 17 to keep the government loans it needs to stay out of bankruptcy. GM Bondholders Should Get 50 Cents on the Dollar, JPMorgan Says - Bloomberg.com
U.S. home loans exceeded the total cash available in the country by $3 trillion at their peak
Can someone please 'splain to me how that is possible? Or should I give up on behaving rationally? I'm starting to think I'd be happier if I did.
Comrade Darkness | 02.12.09 - 4:48 pm | #
GEORGE: No, but you . . . you . . . you're thinking of this place all wrong. As if I had the money
back in a safe. The money's not here. Your money's in Joe's
house . . .
(to one of the men)
. . . right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Macklin's house, and a hundred others.
Why, you're lending them the money to build, and then, they're
going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now what are you going to do? Foreclose on them?
With the way these people have done things if the reaction isn't too bad then I'd say they will go with it. Look what they did last week....also it's a bit discerning that it gets released as we stare over the abyss yet again.
Anger yes...misplaced? not with the track record (very short but disturbingly easy to see)
"I think what you're seeing now is a backlash of a period, from the end of the summer until the end of the year, when refiners were selling gas into the consumer market at a discount to crude oil," said Ben Brockwell, director of data pricing for OPUS.
Uh huh. Call me massively distrustful and suspicious, but I don't see 2 + 2 adding up to 4 here.
For the last year I've been pleading with everyone who suggested cramdowns that they think about what it is they are asking for. Looks like all it takes to change minds is for the president to suggest it. Personally, I thank the O man for his rumor. Maybe now people will realize that the answer to the problem is just to let the system work. If the home loan can not be paid then the house goes into foreclosure and the lender takes it. Period. Prices will reset when the lenders have more houses than they can afford to maintain and pay taxes on.
Look... we are probably screwed...no matter what Obama does.....
What... would you rather put mccain in there?
And for the record almost all the national debt is due to reckless spending my reagan and bush 2
Look... all I'm saying is give the guy a chance..... cleaning up after bush is going to take awhile and there will be stumbles along the way...
I suggest you go back and read about the many missteps of FDR... because there were quite a few (not saying Obama will be like FDR.. just saying that history often hides a lot of the detail)
People could duck out of bonds in the last couple months and not lose out. We'll see another crush for bonds by mid-year when markets plummet, and they have to get back in the pool first. Primary dealers were bottom fishing and lost out. That's why the 10yr went up after its auction. I'm sure they have contracts out that will require to net buy in to seal hedges.
What concerned me though was pensions and insurers are among the largest buyers of the T-bonds (don't have any stats to back that up though), and neither party was doing particularly well. In any event I won't doubt any reports of Fed participiation from here on out. As I have mentioned before, they didn't pre-announce operation twist exactly either (which incidentally was deemed a failure because all it did was change treasury yields, not market credit)
Big problem in the US not being talked about credit-market-wise is the disapperance of the shadow banking sector. SWFs, PE, Hedge funds, overseas banks making loans -- all clenched up. US banks are still lending as they normally did, but they can't easily replace all that, and neither can the Fed. Neither could the shadow banking sector, that's what happens with a debt bubble, minimal carrying capacity is not enough even when returns accelerate slightly less. That's why the global economy is an unstoppable train dropping allocations of pre-existing losses off.
We should all remember that head-fakes like this cost nothing, and might just cause people's perception of the situation to improve. You can call these "false starts" or even "non-starters", but Obama usually knows pretty much (exactly) how far he can game something. I respect it, even if I can see right through it.
Another program that won't help me because I bought within my means. Amazing how that works.
bobn
What happens if your "means" get taken away? I've made my payments for two years now, even with husband laid off for almost five months. That can't continue forever though...
All Fall Down writes:
For the last year I've been pleading with everyone who suggested cramdowns that they think about what it is they are asking for. Looks like all it takes to change minds is for the president to suggest it.
This isn't a cramdown. Cramdowns are a choice made available to a bankruptcy judge, to be applied to the unsecured portion of a loan made to a borrower in bankruptcy. They don't involve any government subsidy whatsoever and they only apply to a Chapter 13 proceeding.
I'd venture to say that nobody on this board that supported cramdowns would support this proposal.
Elvis et al., it happened. I turned on CNBC to hear the "silver linings" they'd come up and kidded with Misean that they would surely read his...I was shocked when I hard Erin reading a portion of his email...It was right at the end of that hours segment...
Great! Nice to see Obama promoting Bush's "ownership society".
And I cannot think of a better way to spend our budget surplus.
First?
You shorts!....ohhh! the pain.
wow... that really bumped the market up.
Isn't mortgage subsidy a dumb idea as well?
The State+Municipal crunch caused by insurers, pensions, yadda yadda will be a juicy one
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine wants to require state and local politicians to gather competitive bids for buying everything from office supplies to pickup trucks -- just not necessarily for the financing. Corzine, a first-term Democrat and the former head of Goldman, Sachs & Co., says bond sales wouldnât be included in his push to end no-bid public contracts in his state. In the past year and a half, 95 percent of New Jerseyâs offerings were sold via negotiations. More than a dozen academic studies show that opening sales to competitive bidding saves taxpayers money.
Obama administration proposal #9784
My my, that was impressive Mr S&P.
I prefer the rate buy down over this plan, even though both are doomed to fail in the long run.
But only for the absolutely worst of the bunch.
"Isn't mortgage subsidy a dumb idea as well?
REBear"
There is a reason part of the root means dead in French. Besides anything French needs to be questioned.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Obama-eyes-home-loan-rb-14343095.html
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
"Just as we had a large overshooting to the upside. Is there any way to prevent going much further to the downside? That will cause tremendous harm to the U.S. economy, to the financial system and it's not necessary," he said.
This guy is another genius!
why?
why for the "troubled homeowners?"
why not for the "aspiring homeowners?"
why not for those of us who waited on the sidelines so that we could be responsible and purchase something we could actually afford?
The world is upside down...
Why?
Nevermind.
Repost: Heeee's Baaack (his idea):
"Two ways to help homeowners directly would be to reduce taxes or to give cash grants similar to those given to disaster victims. Its important to recognize that there are a very large number of people who are in very major stress and having great difficulty in paying off their mortgages, Mr. Greenspan said. "
Greenspan Urges U.S. to Help Those Facing Foreclosure - NY Times
jnk is relatively weak today...
this speaks to crappy market fundamentals, which rallies can't disguise
I never thought it was possible but it turns out to be true.
It is possible to have a Devil and yet have no God.
I give up. I'm going to quit my job and get some welfare.
Lockhart: "That will cause tremendous harm to the U.S. economy, to the financial system and it's not necessary."
Says who. You?
why not for those of us who waited on the sidelines so that we could be responsible and purchase something we could actually afford?
shultzie | 02.12.09 - 3:53 pm | #
Because you don't owe the banks their pound of flesh.
I predict the euphoria over this will be over with by tomorrow morning.
Shultzie, don't you understand? Your money has to go to those who were stupid when you were smart. That's how democratic administrations work.
I am tempted to quit paying my taxes.
Well, based on what happened with the Bush program that should save, oh maybe 52 households.
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
Wow. A little short sighted, no? Deflated levels, from when? Last year? How about we look back a little further in history. F'k this. Problem is that so many people are thinking this way.
Its quite possible that this isn't anything more than a press release to jam the market. None of the other programs had any real substance to them even though they sounded good at first blush.
this close is a gift.
if you have anything long equities in your IRA, you know what to do!
this express train is possibly going to SPX 666
I always hated The Lockharts.
So what's in it for all of the people who work, pay taxes, and did not borrow or lend to make ridiculous speculative bets?
What behavior are we trying to reward here, exactly?
Timmy's Bazooka is out in full effect!
It's cliff climbing!
is SPX 666 some sort of satanic signal or just coincidence?
This will never happe
As usual, it's help for the fools thay overpaid for their houses. No help for people that stayed away from the insanity the past few years and rented. No incentive at all for me to buy a house. I guess I'll sit even longer waiting for prices to come down since all this will do is draw it out even longer. Time to renew my lease!
homeowners would have to make a case of hardship to qualify for new loan terms.
I like it.
If you've purchased any arugula, or for that matter, anything from Starbucks in the last 6 months - you are disqualified.
This idea is pretty dumb, too.
Look at the U-shape on the Dow today. I had to refresh the browser to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks with me.
Do I detect the stench of Bill Gross?
Why does the market go up every time there's a new stimulus idea floated?
Because nothing else is left that will make this market go up.
You gotta have HOPE of some kind or another.
The good news for the market...there's no shortage of stimulus ideas to float.
Easy folks easy!...this is exactly what they want....DO you people read?...this is all part of the big plan....NWO single digit months away.
IMO, this trial balloon gets shot down by the lawyers that have to vet it. With troubled owners that are delinquent, you at least have an objective standard to measure homeowners.
What is a workable standard for a financially troubled homeowner who's not delinquent that won't have so many exceptions as to swallow the standard?
What give up my bimmer, crackberry, digital HDTV, etc?
At least it is not a giveaway to everyone like buying down the rate. How many will fall into the category of "hardship to qualify" and want to continue being a debt slave. The best solution for those who will qualify will still be walking away.
This ponzi scheme spirals ever faster out of control. Obama can go fuck himself.
Then the real fun begins
What do you expect, lottery winnings are taxed as regular income in the United States despite the government already taxing via licenses. In the markets, 10% flat rate
Well, based on what happened with the Bush program that should save, oh maybe 52 households.
nova | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 3:56 pm | #
And there's the reality of it. Need a harship excuse. Need a reappraisal of the property. Need appropriate DTI and LTV ratios. Need to wait months for government processing.
Bottom line: No one qualifies.
But it sounds nice to people who wish they would qualify
"Look at the U-shape on the Dow today. I had to refresh the browser to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks with me."
Its not a U... its a ... W. No wait, its a bird, its a plane...
He is really going to try to put a floor on housing prices... I hope we dont go broke trying to do it.... Wait we already are broke...
...............
is SPX 666 some sort of satanic signal or just coincidence?
the man from nantucket
.
Shhhh..... don't wake Pavel, he'll start in with that 'you don't know the power of the dark side' shit, and there's 400 posts down the tubes.
So let me get this right. I am going to subsidize the bad decisions of others? Great. THE PRAGMATIC CAPITALIST
i'm "troubled" so gimme money, and if i'm not trobuled enough to qualify then i'll find a way to become troubled..."free" money is the new black.
homeowners would have to make a case of hardship to qualify
LOL that's everybody in the freakin' country right now.
Maybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way.
Today is a prime example that our markets are not free, our politicians are corrupt, and our country is rapidly becoming a banana republic.
Prices are going to adjust back to the affordability level no matter the government does. Where does this idiot get his economic advice from?
Subsidy.. by definition it's aid by someone to someone else.. so this subsidy ..who's going to pay for it?
Oh wait..
Ok so who is going to start digging up dead people?
What like its not true...oh and forget the immigrants they took the money and ran...smart ones they were.
What makes the U.S. great are its healthy capital markets.
"aybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way."
I agree.
I hope they aren't really releasing this info just to jam the markets.
Don't they know that does more harm than good?
So Team Obama's PPT is to leak plan tweaks at close....
Homeowners pretend they struggle to save their homes
The government pretends it is trying to save struggling homeowners
The drama continues....
Come back to the next episode of "The Days of Our Home"
Gavshire Hathaway writes:
...This ponzi scheme spirals ever faster out of control. Obama can go fuck himself...
Yearning for the good old days where you could villify Bush for a mere $100 - $200 billion war (anually)?
sorry folks - a moment of despondency.
Screw em all - I'll rent for the rest of my days if I have to
PUMP HARDER MONKEES!!!
More band aids on the gaping wound....
ova,
I will see your 52 households, and lower to 51 households.
--bh
Mortgage Subsidy
Who will pay for it this time
Inevitable
There is a reason part of the root means dead in French.
Elvis | 02.12.09 - 3:53 pm | #
Latin. You know, the dead language.
Latin is a dead language.
As dead as dead can be.
First it killed the Romans,
and now it's killing me!
Features of the stimulus bill
House plans Friday vote on huge economic stimulus package - MarketWatch
$53.6 billion to help states avoid budget cuts
What makes the U.S. great are its healthy capital markets.
Nemo
.
Nemo! Do you mind, I'm trying to eat lunch here.
Welcome back to the big swings, it just shows how unstable things are. Do they get worse?
Today's pump job was astonishing.
A pump like today must require tens of billions of dollars.
Massive reversal.
PPT is now OBAMA.
What a douche.
So who loaded up on URE at 3pm today?
Yearning for the good old days where you could villify Bush for a mere $100 - $200 billion war (anually)?
Werner | 02.12.09 - 4:03 pm
You said the exact same words the other day. Mein Werner ist losing his orginality.
Did you watch the video mein madchen?
Yay! That was the bottom!
Dow -8.84
PPT didn't quite make it
Fission mailed
Pump is not astonishing. Pathetic.
Robo-buying.
The pool of cash is shrinking. The net result is net loss.
--bh
pathetic tiny tim is back in the engine room...
I think -250 to -9 in less than an hour is pretty admirable job, myself.
Maybe somebody realized that direct taxpayer subsidies to the banks would be more politically palatable if they passed through homeowners' hands on the way.
I used to think this was the case as well, but I think there will huge unintended consequences.
You don't come across bankers very often. They're just old white dudes on the television.
But when you find out that your neighbor, who has taken European vacations the past two summers and whose kid is in some prep school, is getting a subsidy, and you're not because you're fiscally conservative, well you become:
Angry Saver.
do they release figures on the currency stabalziation fund? love to see their daily p&L
After years of strong growth, typical nest egg now smaller than in 2001
Seven years of wealth gains gone - MarketWatch
That firehose of liquidity has to go somewhere. Robo buying to the moon. So when is the crash?
How about a rent buydown.
Back into the range with a couple of big moves for expiry next week...unless Europe blows up along the way or some other charming event.
.
.
.
The hole just keeps getting deeper.
.
.
Time to stop digging!
.
.
.
Seriously, don't they know that this will make things worse? All a subsidy does is prolong the problems. House prices are going to adjust back to the affordability level no matter what we do to manipulate it. We can either get it over with in the next 2 years or continue crap like this that extends it out 5 years....Jesus the government is filled with morons....
All this trouble.. just to save the banks.
Do they get worse?
Comrade Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 4:05 pm | #
Yep.
Sounds wonderful.....create a situation where a certain % of mortgage holders were still paying on the loan and give them an instant reason to create "distress"....
And release this news at just the time the market is about to fall off a cliff.
loaded up on some appropriate calls just in case this thing has legs.
Ciao
MS
I think -250 to -9 in less than an hour is pretty admirable job, myself.
I agree. My Ford can't do that.
U or W. Either way, it's insanity.
Like the other "plans" recently, this will be soon forgotton. Or, if implemented, will go as smoothly as those debit cards given out after Katrina.
How about a rent buydown.
Michael | 02.12.09 - 4:08 pm | #
What? You don't think your landlord will pass his subsidy through to you?
Neither do I.
Years of Wealth Wiped away!
Please!...there was no wealth it was all on paper....quite whining!...and if your 401k is down 70%...sorry your fault...I keep my money close....maybe next time....well consider it a lesson learned.
Oh
Today's pump job WAS brought to you by The "SHAM WOW!" Guy!
MS, this would include people not yet in arrears with their payments, just to clarify so it wouldn't encourage people to go delinquent.
Let it run. And in a few days the market will realize that this only makes the problems worse....They can try to fight off nationalization as long as they want, but they will lose.
TPC,
That's politics for ya. Delay, delay, delay and hope things get better. This is we've been doing just that for the past 18 months to no avail.
What a horrible idea.
If this happens O is an idiot!
And at warp 10, we're going nowhere mighty fast.
An oxymoron; "mortgage payments for troubled homeowners." It's typical obfuscation of the truth; tenants with mortgages held by the banks who own the titles until all debt is discharged. So, is this another congressional circuitous ponzi attempt to give the banks more taxpayer money?
house problems are a fraction of the problem. Don't threse guys listen to anoyone oustide thier loop? In the end this is all ending up on the govt balance sheet...
Short bucky
Note to self...dont vote for a Community organizer for President in 2012
"Obama can go fuck himself."
LOL, I would like this in the form of a bumper sticker.
ANother note to self
Dont vote for a Harvard MBA either in 2012
If you didn't write in Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich, you are part of the problem.
Today's pump job WAS brought to you by The "SHAM WOW!" Guy!
bfatz | 02.12.09 - 4:11 pm | #
Hah! That dude looks totally twisted, and like he cannot believe anyone could be a big enough dumbsh!t as to believe any of his crap...
Wonder if Roubini will like this?
samsin,
I hear you, but I am starting to just get pissed now. We need to take our medicine and make some tough decisions. You can't have a capitalist market where everyone wins.
If you bought a house and you cant afford it then sorry - you're done. If you're a bank that made bad loans - sorry. You're done.
I am tired of paying for other peoples mistakes and watching the market tank.
These morons are ruining this country.
NATIONALIZE THE BANKS AND LETS MOVE FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GS,
Crash events are still 3 to 6 months down the road IMO.
At least 1, probably 2 to 3 quarters to fully realize that yes, that is a train coming right for us.
-bh
Three consecutive days of DJIA closing below 8k.
These stupid bastards.
kristina-
I understand that part of it however I'm speaking to the actual implementation of this.....should it actually be true.
Banks have no reason to do any mods. unless they have a situation that needs it. Now that is another argument because fundamentally they need it.... it's still tempting people to join in on the jingle-mail wave.
Ciao
MS
Nemo writes:
I always hated The Lockharts.
So what's in it for all of the people who work, pay taxes, and did not borrow or lend to make ridiculous speculative bets?
What behavior are we trying to reward here, exactly?
I have a feeling we must be in the minority.
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
"Just as we had a large overshooting to the upside. Is there any way to prevent going much further to the downside?"
Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Down Side.
The economic mess is terrible. We will suffer.
The "solutions" being offered by the buffons in DC are worse than the mess itself. We will suffer doubly.
...
I think Obama and team see that 15-25% (or even more)further drops in home prices could be forthcoming, and if that happens, there is no saving the US (and some other countries) banking industry.
So, supply is already to large (and may get larger with more foreclosures) with no reasonable way to cut that supply, they must impact demand.
Demand SHOULD ultimately be determined by family incomes, rent/purchase ratios, buyer credit worthiness, and availability of credit. They can't increase incomes but they might be able to able to improve the availability of credit to credit-worthy buyers. Hence, the rumors. The banks won't do this on their own. If demand is to increase for housing purchase, the only agent left is the government (as in the stimulus to replace lost consumer demand and business income).
It sounds crazy, but I guess I'm ready to think about such a plan rather than see the entire banking industry gone because the banks mortagage assets are really only worth 10-30% of their original value. At those valuations, there isn't a bank in sight that is solvent if they have been involved in mortgage or CBMS. There isn't enough there (money) there (in the hands of either banks or the government).
didnt the firm get wrecked in the end...and GS prints another up day?
Anyone have a link proving that the CEO salary caps were removed from the package?
That should be reported in the news.
The Troubled Homeowners Underwriting Desanitizer program (THUD) is designed to help people who, through no fault of their own, have sustained a hardship that no one coodanode would happen. These hapless souls are entitled to a deferral of a portion of their mortgage payment, but only if the current value of the house they purchased is still well above the principal amount owed on it and they do not own a Hummer, nor have any credit card debt, nor have taken a vacation outside of the continental United States in the past five years, and have never received public assistance at any time in their lives.
All eligible homeowners are encouraged to apply on the standardized 17 page application that we will be creating over the next few months in consulatation with the major banks who will in the end be responsible for determining what level of hardship allows one to a subsidy that may not exceed ten percent (10%) of the monthly mortgage payment for a period not to exceed twelve (12) months.
Looks like a winner to me.
Well I am writing my idea of what it will be like. Strange sh!t comes from my brain. Then again ya'll are my inspiratio
How does one revoke their citizenship?
Which countries are accepting new taxpayers?
Re-post from dead thread:
This is to be expected from a Democratic president.
Anyone who voted for O cannot be surprised or pissed.
Home owner stress test FTW!
Nostrovia,
Resolved: The S&P/Dow 30 are to investment what Hai-lai is to sports.
Discuss.
I sitting here on a growing pile of cash (which I've been saving for years while living in a grubby little cheap apartment), waiting for real estate prices to return to normalcy, so I can buy a house and start shopping at home depot, etc.
And the jerks in government want to use my taxes to keep RE prices artificially high?
Idiots!
sportsfan-
I could actually see them releasing something like that.......funny and sad at the same time.
Ciao
MS
Remember Credit Cards. They are steadily erroding the capital positions of some very problematic banks.
Insolvency is fungible.
--bh
You don't come across bankers very often. They're just old white dudes on the television.
But when you find out that your neighbor, who has taken European vacations the past two summers and whose kid is in some prep school, is getting a subsidy, and you're not because you're fiscally conservative, well you become:
Angry Saver.
Basel Too | 02.12.09 - 4:08 pm | #
You don't come across fiscally conservative individuals very often. They're just old dudes on the internet.
I probably know more bankers.
Anyone have volume on the Dow for today?
I predict a moderate rally for the SPX to the 860-875 range over the next 3-4 weeks, at that point the SPX will be above both the 50 and 100 day moving averages, for the first time since last June.
Could be the last great shorting opportunity of this bear.
Shultzie, don't you understand? Your money has to go to those who were stupid when you were smart. That's how democratic administrations work.
And republicans just take all my money and give it to those who already were filthy rich... and use the rest to murder brown peopele
What behavior are we trying to reward here, exactly?
Indenture.
"How does one revoke their citizenship?"
The last administration revoked all US citizenships. We are now referred to as Consumers.
"This is to be expected from a Democratic president."
Are you clueless? Bush was doing the exact same types of things, but with far less oversight. Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did.
CNBC shills are saying how this will help stabilize home prices. Why don't we just follow Pakistan's lead of setting a floor for stock prices to halt a plunge? Home Prices stabilized. Problem solved. We can move on to the next problem.
Those 239 Dow points will ultimately end up costing them a circuit breaker event in the next few days.
will there be a common application for the mortgage and cards
While we're at it, let's ditch the deductibility of mortgage interest, because all the same arguments apply.
Interesting Times writes:
Anyone have a link proving that the CEO salary caps were removed from the package?
That should be reported in the news.
But that would make Obama look bad. The MSM doesn't want that. He's still to be treated as our Messiah who can do no wrong.
Just remember that this isn't a subsidy to homeowners. The homeowner doesn't really benefit at all here. It's just a subsidy to the banks and rentiers using the homeowner as a conduit to make it look less vile than it really is.
Just my two cents, I have a horrific mortgage that I got in 2007 after my Mom died leaving behind a mortgage. I had been her caregiver for over a year at the time so had no work history nor mortgage/rent history for that year. I am currently paying 10.22% and I have an ARM, it was that or lose the family house, all I had left from Mom and Dad. A new mortgage of even 5.5% would cut my housing monthly expenditure almost in half. Do you think I won't spend that extra 800 bucks per month?
Anonymous sed: "I am tempted to quit paying my taxes."
Awwww, don't do that! What kind of con game are we going to have if the marks start walking away?
Jeez. Ingrate.
"While we're at it, let's ditch the deductibility of mortgage interest, because all the same arguments apply." That would be awesome.
Wow. I don't need to see any further details of such a morally corrupt concept. I do feel some pain for all the responsible folks out there working hard and paying their mortgage payments on time. This is like a punch in the gut to anyone fiscally responsible. Actually, doubly so because you end up paying more than that slob next door with the new pool and Hummer, not to mention that new plasma tv on his wall while the gov't helps him pay for his mortgage. This rewards irresponsible debtors, period.
"Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did."
O supported TARP 1 and voted for it.
Remember also that you can buy some magic plumber liquid to break up jambs in your toilet (or plunge in the old fashioned way), but you can't buy some bad-debt spot remover. That bad debt exceeds any feasible rescue with conventional means, like bankruptcy.
And yes, Virginia, there is no fairy wand that will make bad debt turn into a princess and coach.
Comrade Kristina, you'll spend $400 a month and save $400.
Odd thing - Bloomberg had a good bit of this story hours and hours ago, but it had no evident impact. I hear CNBC people talking about an Dudley conference call, which could be why this more recent Reuters story has had greater impact.
CR,
I would not jump to the conclusion that the effort to bring down mortgage rates is dead. We had a Fed guy out yesterday (Evans? Maybe...) saying that he wants to see how the TALF works out before commencing purchases of long-dated Treasuries. Since TALF was delayed presumably to get MBS into it, it looks like Evans (?) is saying that the Fed is interested in jamming down mortgage rates, but step-wise.
circuit breaker days are not going to happen.....IMO
We should have had three or four by now. The quants. won't allow it to happen.
We might get close but unless some sort of major disturbance (ala 9/11) occurs then it's business as usual. IMO the system just won't allow it or they're toast.
Ciao
MS
Gregg withdraws as commerce secretary
If this happens O is an idiot!
crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:11 pm | #
I actually feel bad for O. I still stand by my claim that Hoover's biggest mistake was getting elected and that Mr. O may have fallen into the same trap.
PPT? No...Just dumb luck. That and an early release of the news. But, why did the TNX tank?
Nostrovia,
The Obama/Geithner spagetti approach - keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks - is highlighting the weakening inexperience of the new administration; perhaps they should seek more advice from the former Fed Chairman Volker vs the staining and harsh attitude of Summers.
Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did.
True. O just worked the phones on that one in his comfortable role as telemarketer for Wall St.
Three consecutive days of DJIA closing below 8k.
1.41 | 02.12.09 - 4:14 pm | #
Yes, interesting point - last November we had two days close under 8K, and on the third went from being down 2% to ending up 6.5% and just over 8K at the close - November 21st.
" O supported TARP 1 and voted for it."
This is true. Don't take this to be a defense of either Bush or Obama. But rather they are two sides of the same corrupt ruling class coin.
From the CNBC article:
Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels.
"Just as we had a large overshooting to the upside. Is there any way to prevent going much further to the downside? That will cause tremendous harm to the U.S. economy, to the financial system and it's not necessary," he said.
"from their current, deflated levels"?!?!?!?! what the hell are these people smoking?
We are being saved by the congressional:
Buffoons,
Idiots
Morons, and
Barrack
Obama
solutions
.
Where can I find a list of all the stimulus packages from the time of George Bushes 1.6 trillion tax cut.
What is the value of all residential and commercial real estate in this country? I say the federal government buys it all. Then what can we blame for the bank failures.
Of course if you read over on Naked Capitalism, much of the bank bailout money is going into the operations involving CDOs, CDSs, and derivatives, which according to Yves FDIC et al do not have the expertise to audit. Apparently in one review Yves conducted the error in risk management involved 4 cells in a 60 page spreadsheet.
Maybe I should stock up on weaponry and food.
Interesting Times writes:
Anyone have a link proving that the CEO salary caps were removed from the package?
Lawmakers' Goal to Cap Executive Pay Meets Resistance - washingtonpost.com
Maybe I should stock up on weaponry and food.
lawn grass | 02.12.09 - 4:24 pm
You haven't already?
A Pony in every pot!
-
this is good:
"Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels."
Um, Lockhart, you mean still inflated levels.
-
I'm going all in double shorting this idea. No way Americans want to subsidize their neighbor's mortgage.
"But rather they are two sides of the same corrupt ruling class coin."
Sad but true.
latest Roubini interview
Bailout Video Dr. Doom: Complete Bloomberg Interview With Nouriel Roubini - Home - The Daily Bail
And republicans just take all my money and give it to those who already were filthy rich... and use the rest to murder brown peopele
\t USA=CCCP
USA=CCCP | 02.12.09 - 4:19 pm | #
Don't worry: Republicans are getting progressive and using unfunded tax cuts to bribe poor people as well as rich people now.
What about my neighbor who used his HELOC to get his wife some DD"s...can I touch them now since I am paying for them...just saying
REBear writes:
"Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did."
O supported TARP 1 and voted for it.
REBear | 02.12.09 - 4:22 pm |
But Bush tricked showing them pictures of trucks designed as labs and rushed them into voting for TARP and an up or down vote...screw bipartisanship he said and left the dems outside... he scared everyone, that the market would collapse after Lincolns birthdsay if congress didnt give Bush his war on the economy....blah blah blah...
wink
I feel bad for no man who sells ersatz "change" to a desperate public in behalf of billionaires.
This is to be expected from a Democratic president.
Anyone who voted for O cannot be surprised or pissed.
Anonymous
Please remind us of our corporate presidential choices. There's one party and it the corporate party that owns 535 imbeciles.
The punchbowl has been moved from the red room to the blue room
Greg withdraws as Comm. Sec nominee
White House
Comments: 202-456-1111
Stick save. None of the normal "reversal day" metrics are anywhere near "reversal day" levels.
Meanwhile, across the pond, did anyone notice that the Bund auction failed for the second time in a row? Also of note was the raging plunge of both Asian and European markets earlier today.
FT.com / UK - German 10-year Bund auction fails for second successive time
There's a reason why that rumor was floated at the time that it was floated, and not sooner or later.
Also, the fact that HIG can no longer access relevant government assistance programs and will presumably become an early failure in the insurance sector, thus causing panic among everyone owning insurance products... Expired
... or that Dow chemical cut its dividend for the first time in nearly 100 years, and by almost 2/3...
Dow Chemical cuts dividend for the first time, slashing it by 64% - MarketWatch
... that wouldn't be cause for concern, would it?
No, all we need is a little Washington-sponsored legerdemain to goose the homeowners, and all will be well! heh heh...
If Obama thinks taxpayers will go for this, I've got news for him.
This is to be expected from a Democratic president.
Anyone who voted for O cannot be surprised or pissed.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 4:17 pm | #
This will hopefully be my only political post on this subject....
As I recall, the McCain plan released last October involved buying out the existing mortgages at par (thus fully bailing out the lender) and rewriting the loans, now held by the government, with improved terms and lower monthly payments. On it's face it's hard to distinguish that from what was supposedly leaked today--the one major difference I suppose is that the banks would get paid out up front instead of having a guaranteed income stream, at interest, going forward. And, of course, that McCain's plan would have meant an enormous fiscal outlay up front instead of spreading it over the life of the loans.
The transfer of taxpayer funds to the banks is a bipartisan project.
the last paragraph of that WAPO article just says it all.....
"Can't change the rules it would be unfair"....
OMG
Ciao
MS
Also, you see where Yemini has agreed to release all their Al Qieda terrorist they are holding in an agreement reached with #2 Al Zawhiri????
Seems they will release them with Al Q's word that they will fight the Yemen uprising in the South....
timing , timing, timing
Whew. Gave me one more day (today) to liquidate the remainder of my long holdings. I already had the sell order in at -3% Thank you O!
I think that this is a ploy to cut down the number of foreclosures. I think prices will continue to fall, anyway.
Comrade Anonymous writes:
Comrade Kristina, you'll spend $400 a month and save $400.
No, she was probably saying it right the first time.
This rewards irresponsible debtors, period.
Renter | 02.12.09 - 4:21 pm
Oh no. It does much more. It diverts financing away from small businesses. That will help small business owners decide whether or not to expand and invest.
What about my neighbor who used his HELOC to get his wife some DD"s...
Omigod. The Home A2M!
Gavshire Hathaway writes:
This ponzi scheme spirals ever faster out of control. Obama can go fuck himself.
Gavshire Hathaway | 02.12.09 - 3:59 pm | #
It appears Sen. Gregg feels the same way.
quick note: take your obama good obama bad stuff off this board. Thank you.
or ponies of the apocalypse will eat your face.
--bh
No, she was probably saying it right the first time.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 4:29 pm
Hard not to when your husband has been laid off for almost five months and your savings are almost gone...Funny how that works...
"Can't change the rules it would be unfair"....
They are rules and then there are 'rules'.
Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
Obama playing the Bush Cat card.
"Lockhart said that policymakers are eager to prevent a large drop in home values from their current, deflated levels."
Um, Lockhart, you mean still inflated levels.
Early withdrawal | 02.12.09 - 4:25 pm | #
The solution is to devalue the debt via defaults. Even if that involves replacing it with new debt at a reduced principle.
You can't simultaneously support transparency in the financial system and also support inflating away debt.
inflation = deception and obscurity
That's what makes it so attractive to politicians - it lets them tax and spend without accountability. Likewise for Wall Street - it lets them siphon wealth out of the system without the general population realizing it.
fudge writes
"he scared everyone, that the market would collapse after Lincolns birthdsay if..."
O said the same about the stimulus plan
Oil tumbles below $34 a barrel on economic fears
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Oil prices slid to a new low for the year Thursday because of growing doubts that the $789 billion stimulus package will reinvigorate the U.S. economy and demand for energy.
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Obamas pontificating is getting very boring.
LOL ce and yet, gas is still at 1.99 per gallon here...
It appears Sen. Gregg feels the same way.
You mean this Gregg? :-
Blogger: Blog not found
@Comrade Kristina
.
Hope the refi goes well for you, CK. Crossing fingers and toes.
GH-
Since I do have a large payment to make this year I am just livid about the goings on of the last several weeks. If I don't pay then "I really pay later".
Frustrating as all hell.
Ciao
MS
Reminds me of last September when the DOW went from 10600 to 11400 in a couple of days. Everything was fixed then. IIRC that was when Paulson requested $700 billion to save the banks.
That worked out real well!
It's time to go the "Full Mugabe"...
Just add a Zero to everyone's paycheck:
1000 = 10,000
500= 5000
It's all good until bread costs a Billion Greenspans per loaf!
Is it possible to rescind my Obama vote? He is off to an even more disastrous economic start than Bush....
see ee, no po
So, can I still buy a house I can't afford and qualify for the government handout? I've got my eye on a nice $700K house if someone else is paying.
TPC writes:
Is it possible to rescind my Obama vote? He is off to an even more disastrous economic start than Bush....
TPC | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:34 pm | #
Same here!
How about we just dont have a president!
Gregg withdraws as Commerce Secretary and the market rallies!
I guess those Abramoff ties were pretty darn close.
OMFG
Is that true about Erin reading Misean's stuff live? Anyone got a link?
Wisdom Speaker - two threads back we did a number on Euro / US bonds. If you've got CR Companion, there's a lengthy, but of course thoroughly warranted, exchange between me, EHP, MS and ac. Maybe others too.
C
MS, I assume you and I are in the same boat with respect to our tax payments this year. I'm very tempted to take the money and run. At this rate, our gov will collapse soon anyways.
This is no longer a failing of the financial system. The tentacles of rot have taken hold of our political system as well.
The slippery slope of irresponsibility and moral hazard will take us off the cliff if we don't take our country back now.
Just wonderin' - Is Obama a communist?
The law of unintended consequences..
for every mortgage subsidized, 3 new defaults will occur, in order to qualify for "Obama Gift".
Damn. Give Obama a year. The same you would give anyone else on the job.
i think some you want to see it all crash so much that there is a wet spot on your shorts from thinking about it.
@energyecon:
OTOH, April crude is still around $42, and closed green for the day, if I can read this thing correctly...
"It sounds crazy, but I guess I'm ready to think about such a plan rather than see the entire banking industry gone..."
Why, yes: it does sound crazy. Very crazy. Barking mad crazy. Rubber room crazy. Foaming at the mouth crazy.
Really, MS, ac, EHP...
TNX tanked during DOW pump job...anything?
I thought the bid earlier had another of those "lots of indirect accepted" bids.
Nostrovia,
Lots of smoke signaling here. It's all about expressing "concern," not much else. I'm seeing a pattern where the Obamaoids run things up the flagpole and then withdraw if there's too much howling from the masses.
ac,
good points. It's another form of coin clipping, if you know what I mean.
--bh
Crispy Bait writes:
see ee, no po
Crispy Bait | 02.12.09 - 4:35 pm | #
LOL!!
Oil is going to $25 bbl
Harvard Professor Harry Lewis Blown to Bits:
Harvard Prof. Harry Lewis “Blown to Bits” : Information Security Resources
Boom!
Oxy just did a big layoff here...po, I think not
Winston writes:
So, can I still buy a house I can't afford and qualify for the government handout? I've got my eye on a nice $700K house if someone else is paying.
Winston
have you always aimed a little low?
If it's true that the market rallied off the lows on this plan, then I think it may be another buy the rumor, sell the news deal. Devil's in the details. Now doubt they rallied for "Hope Now."
Sorry during = just before.
Nostrovia,
"WFC to record $328.4m non-cash charge"
This effectively lowers it's EPS from .75 to .70 for FY 2008
Isn't transparency great!!!
like they didn't know this on January 28th......
Ciao
MS
"bearly writes:
Just wonderin' - Is Obama a communist?
bearly | 02.12.09 - 4:37 pm |"
YES!
So, how many years does this add to the housing price declines? 2 or 3 years? Rather than the axe, they're choosing to use the bowie knife. Nice choice there guys.
It's time to let the market adjust on its own. The manipulation needs to end.
The markets are down just less than 50% from their highs. Homes values are down ~ 30% from their peaks.
That means that people still have money left to lose.
We definitely don't want to stifle financial "innovation" with that much wealth left to pillage.
Michael | 02.12.09 - 4:40 pm
What do you think the odds are that Obama knows the antichrist?
This is no longer a failing of the financial system. The tentacles of rot have taken hold of our political system as well.
GS,
Yes.
/gestures with index finger and taps nose.
--bh
At least a mortgage subsidy plan won't need a lot of resources and will be easy to implement.
@Counterpointer - Thanks; I had missed that thread. Real life is now very pressing. I posted mainly to try to put it all together for folks who might have actually thought the Obama proposal was genuine.
Misean,
Here is Dow and TNX - bond market closes at 3 pm EST - just before pump commenced...
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5ETNX#chart1:symbol=^tnx;range=1d;compare=^dji;indicator=mfi;charttype=candlestick;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined
I don't care what financial position you are in today.. Just stop paying your mortgage now, I can't guarantee it but I bet you will have a good year of free living. This news will be good for a couple more million pissed off homeowners.. Start saving your monthly payment for the day when you will be able to buy homes for next to nothing. Unfortunately I saw this coming back in 2005 so my 900 sq ft. house has a mortgage of 250/month and 3/4 equity but I bet today is the last straw for many of the fiscally prudent. I know it is for my sibling living in Inland Empire.. He is done with this B.S.
Very curious timing...right as the market is about to crack and after 3pm. We've seen this movie before.
"Is it possible to rescind my Obama vote? He is off to an even more disastrous economic start than Bush...."
LOL... he hasn't really done much of anything yet... which makes sense as it HASNT EVEN BEEN A FUCKING MONTH
Bush put us into a depression... worst presdient in US history yet people relected him in 2004...
Obama deserves at least 2 years before any judgement can be rendered
You fucking morons who expect him to solve the last 30 years of idiotic supply side reagonomics in less than a month are fucking worthless
I guess that woman on YouTube who was blathering about how now that Obama was elected she would be able to pay her mortgage and car payments was right.
Go figure.
Let stage 2 of GD2 begin.....
If you want to stem the decline of house prices, you will need to literally vaporize ~20mn homes.
That's huge, think of how many states have less than 1mn people let alone households. It adds no real value. It's too big of a problem to tackle directly. Losses will be distributed whether the government cares or not.
Save the energy for an alternate vector.
"..this economic recovery will be measure in years...not months..."
President Obama
Oil is going to $25 bbl
Lower imo.
"What do you think the odds are that Obama knows the antichrist?"
100%! I saw them together at the inauguration, right before he went back to Texas.
Current indicators of Obushma's basic math skills point to the obvious. His highschool SAT Math score was < 0.
CR, would you be willing to take the Sec of Commerce position, your country needs you!
I think not
crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:39 pm | #
In other news, Strategic Command begins clearing out space junk to reduce oversupply and clear the markets:
U.S. and Russia track satellite crash debris
| Reuters
"nova writes:
Michael | 02.12.09 - 4:40 pm
What do you think the odds are that Obama knows the antichrist?
nova | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:40 pm |"
The Builderbergs hand picked Obama, they know the AntiChrist.
Obama's grandparents are Jewish,fact.
OT
Trying to install CR Companion on this machine, get this error from Firefox
because: Invalid file hash (possible download corruption)
-261
ANyone else ever had that problem?
Wise Words from Yahoo News.
When toddlers point a lot, more words will follow
briwerk writes:
"This is to be expected from a Democratic president."
Are you clueless? Bush was doing the exact same types of things, but with far less oversight. Obama didn't sign TARP 1, Bush did.
briwerk | Homepage | 02.12.09 - 4:19 pm | #
Obama voted for it.
If you have a $300,000 5% 30 year fixed mortgage which has a $1610 monthly payment in order to afford the house you need a $1200 monthly payment the principle would have to be reduced by $76,500.
If this happened anarchy would happen.
I don't think the numbers will work to make a big enough difference.
misean-
according to my read it certainly did. May be there was that one...and then another one for the rest of those "furiner's"..sort of "hey we aren't going to write them at what our own dealer's want" (which explains why the accepted amount was so low from the tender) So here's what we want to give you...take it."
Just speculating....'bout all I have at this point with anything they actually release. Someone who's been in the bond market for a while should be able to understand why the number's are so skewed.......no one's been able to come up with any clear reason.
What's this about someone stealing from ya today? Prose read on air?
I must have missed that.
Ciao
MS
Comrade Kristina,
I feel your pain. I went to Vegas last week and dropped a huge wad on black. The little ball had landed black three times in a row. I was certain I could almost double my money to pay for a family farm (someone elses farm, no one in my family owns a home). Wouldn't you know it, the little ball stopped on red. I was not aware of the potential losses I might face. I place the blame squarely on the smooth talking dealer. Now I'm in a real bind. I'm hoping you and many other taxpayers might convince the gubmint to subsidize the losses I have suffered due to my retarded wager.
Those 239 Dow points will ultimately end up costing them a circuit breaker event in the next few days.
Anonymous | 02.12.09 - 4:20 pm | #
Like piling on extension cords instead of biting hte wallet and putting in a new circuit.
Awful lot of noise here over a mortgage subsidy plan that is only "BEING CONTEMPLATED" and won't even come into being unless the mortgage industry voluntarily agrees "to a set of standards that will allow [the mortgage industry] to move quickly to modify many home loans".
But rant on !!
USA=CCCP,
This isn't rocket science. House prices are directly correlated to incomes. You can't prop up the prices unless you have some wonder drug that makes everyones income go up. The two will revert no matter what over time. The idea that we can manipulate the prices up is so idiotic.
And then you have his "stimulus" plan which is really just a bunch of pork and afew million jobs that will last 9 months.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that his first two major plans are disasters in the making.
This is all the same crap Japan tried. Give Obama a god damn history book!
o.k. Michael goes to the naughty room.
--bh
You fucking morons who expect him to solve the last 30 years of idiotic supply side reagonomics in less than a month are fucking worthless
USA=CCCP | 02.12.09 - 4:42 pm | #
USA=CCCP, tell us what you really think
Sadly, even if the current administration makes the best possible policy decisions, the plane will probably still crash into the mountainside.
"Lower imo."
no!!!
i just bought a small chunk of GSG.
hold the line, boys!
Obama deserves at least 2 years before any judgement can be rendered
If you need two years to figure out he's a corporate stooge, we won't rush you.
because: Invalid file hash (possible download corruption)
I think that error comes up every time somebody mentions the Bilderbergs on a thread.
The Builderbergs hand picked Obama, they know the AntiChrist.
Obama's grandparents are Jewish,fact.
Jewish? Wow, that would explain a lot. I thought one one of them was Jewish.
"The Builderbergs hand picked Obama, they know the AntiChrist.
Obama's grandparents are Jewish,fact."
I thought his grandparents were cannibals. I think I read it somewhere on the internet.
U.S. home loans exceeded the total cash available in the country by $3 trillion at their peak
Can someone please 'splain to me how that is possible? Or should I give up on behaving rationally? I'm starting to think I'd be happier if I did.
anon | 02.12.09 - 4:46 pm | #
DNFTT
"The last administration revoked all US citizenships. We are now referred to as Consumers."
Horsepuckey. "Last administration" my ass. All actual citizenship was revoked in 1913, at which time residents became only "taxpayers."
As a "taxpayer" , you are, however, allowed to consume.
But rant on !!
The whole point of trial balloons is get a reaction from the public, positive or negative.
If the government wants an opinion from industry, they just pick up the phone and ask.
That's huge, think of how many states have less than 1mn people let alone households. It adds no real value. It's too big of a problem to tackle directly. Losses will be distributed whether the government cares or not. Save the energy for an alternate vector.
EvilHenryPaulson
.
That would put the local municipalities and counties an the hook for cleanup. Never mind the environmental costs. Landfills would be overwhelmed, and digging new landfills can be highly problematic. Giving them to the highest bidder avoids some of that extra shitload of costs.
Unless you have a plasma weapon you're not telling me about.
The housing market is like the stock market, just slower. To make money, you need to buy when the price is going up. If the price is going down, you need to SELL! NOW!
USA=CCCP writes:
Obama deserves at least 2 years before any judgement can be rendered
This was written in the cards. Democrats love to spend on social programs. Why would you think it would be any other way?
i'm with on the $25bbl.
that's not going to make for pretty margins at the major's.
GM Bondholders Should Get 50 Cents on the Dollar, JPMorgan Says
By Caroline Salas and Jeff Green
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. bondholders should recover 50 cents on the dollar based on the concessions being made by unions, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.
GM is negotiating a debt restructuring with bondholders and union officials as part of the terms of $13.4 billion in government loans. The Detroit-based automaker has to report its progress to the U.S. Treasury on Feb. 17 to keep the government loans it needs to stay out of bankruptcy.
GM Bondholders Should Get 50 Cents on the Dollar, JPMorgan Says - Bloomberg.com
U.S. home loans exceeded the total cash available in the country by $3 trillion at their peak
Can someone please 'splain to me how that is possible? Or should I give up on behaving rationally? I'm starting to think I'd be happier if I did.
Comrade Darkness | 02.12.09 - 4:48 pm | #
GEORGE: No, but you . . . you . . . you're thinking of this place all wrong. As if I had the money
back in a safe. The money's not here. Your money's in Joe's
house . . .
(to one of the men)
. . . right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Macklin's house, and a hundred others.
Why, you're lending them the money to build, and then, they're
going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now what are you going to do? Foreclose on them?
"blackhat writes:
o.k. Michael goes to the naughty room.
--bh
blackhat | 02.12.09 - 4:46 pm |"
I feel so Baaaaad.
Obama's maternal grandparents are Jewish. Don't make me give you links to the research.
scone,
To be fair, he mention vaporize. I assumed a plasma weopon was involved.
--bh
popeye-
With the way these people have done things if the reaction isn't too bad then I'd say they will go with it. Look what they did last week....also it's a bit discerning that it gets released as we stare over the abyss yet again.
Anger yes...misplaced? not with the track record (very short but disturbingly easy to see)
Ciao
MS
MS,
Thanks...kinda what I thought, but I missed a bunch...and with the CRVIX this high, hard to get through it all.
"What's this about someone stealing from ya today? Prose read on air?
I must have missed that."
Apparently a sarcastic quip I sent to Erin on CNBS for "Silver Linings" made it passed the screeners. CK heard it. Posted on prior thread.
Nostrovia,
"that's not going to make for pretty margins at the major's.
Crispy Bait"
Even less pretty at the sub majors.
Obama's maternal grandparents are Jewish. Don't make me give you links to the research.
Michael | 02.12.09 - 4:51 pm
That ain't nuthin. I got the real scoop. Did you know he is secretly Black! And he is living with a Black women!
I know, it is hard to believe.
U.S. home loans exceeded the total cash available in the country by $3 trillion at their peak
Can someone please 'splain to me how that is possible? Or should I give up on behaving rationally? I'm starting to think I'd be happier if I did.
It was a "cashless society."
In the last thread, I asked about the inverse relationship occuring between bbl crude price and gasoline prices. Now I see this article:
Gas prices could hit $2 a gallon - Feb. 12, 2009
"Cheap Gas is History, again"
"I think what you're seeing now is a backlash of a period, from the end of the summer until the end of the year, when refiners were selling gas into the consumer market at a discount to crude oil," said Ben Brockwell, director of data pricing for OPUS.
Uh huh. Call me massively distrustful and suspicious, but I don't see 2 + 2 adding up to 4 here.
"It was a "cashless society.""
i think the feds spend current mzm every 80 days or so at this pace
energyecon - I see the chart, and the 1.27% down, but what's the Dow correlation, other than the pump happened after the auction closed?
C
And someone PLEASE get me Erin reading Misean's pitchforks and torches...
"but I don't see 2 + 2 adding up to 4 here."
everybody had a chance to buy TSO in the single digits
Obama's grandparents are Jewish,fact.
Michael | 02.12.09 - 4:45 pm | #
Yes, Western Kenya has more Jews than Manhattan or Tel Aviv, LOL
Give Obama a god damn history book!
TPC
It'll come in handy as a coaster or a doorstop.
For the last year I've been pleading with everyone who suggested cramdowns that they think about what it is they are asking for. Looks like all it takes to change minds is for the president to suggest it. Personally, I thank the O man for his rumor. Maybe now people will realize that the answer to the problem is just to let the system work. If the home loan can not be paid then the house goes into foreclosure and the lender takes it. Period. Prices will reset when the lenders have more houses than they can afford to maintain and pay taxes on.
homeowners would have to make a case of hardship to qualify for new loan terms.
Another program that won't help me because I bought within my means. Amazing how that works.
sigh.... so many children
Look... we are probably screwed...no matter what Obama does.....
What... would you rather put mccain in there?
And for the record almost all the national debt is due to reckless spending my reagan and bush 2
Look... all I'm saying is give the guy a chance..... cleaning up after bush is going to take awhile and there will be stumbles along the way...
I suggest you go back and read about the many missteps of FDR... because there were quite a few (not saying Obama will be like FDR.. just saying that history often hides a lot of the detail)
US GASOLINE FUND ETF ETF Chart - Yahoo! Finance
whodathunk
Thanks Darkness for that link...just wow. Interestingly enough, they now need 3 Trillion dollars to be "saved"...coincidence? Nah...
MS, Misean
The bond market fought the Treasury, and the Treasury won
People could duck out of bonds in the last couple months and not lose out. We'll see another crush for bonds by mid-year when markets plummet, and they have to get back in the pool first. Primary dealers were bottom fishing and lost out. That's why the 10yr went up after its auction. I'm sure they have contracts out that will require to net buy in to seal hedges.
What concerned me though was pensions and insurers are among the largest buyers of the T-bonds (don't have any stats to back that up though), and neither party was doing particularly well. In any event I won't doubt any reports of Fed participiation from here on out. As I have mentioned before, they didn't pre-announce operation twist exactly either (which incidentally was deemed a failure because all it did was change treasury yields, not market credit)
Big problem in the US not being talked about credit-market-wise is the disapperance of the shadow banking sector. SWFs, PE, Hedge funds, overseas banks making loans -- all clenched up. US banks are still lending as they normally did, but they can't easily replace all that, and neither can the Fed. Neither could the shadow banking sector, that's what happens with a debt bubble, minimal carrying capacity is not enough even when returns accelerate slightly less. That's why the global economy is an unstoppable train dropping allocations of pre-existing losses off.
We should all remember that head-fakes like this cost nothing, and might just cause people's perception of the situation to improve. You can call these "false starts" or even "non-starters", but Obama usually knows pretty much (exactly) how far he can game something. I respect it, even if I can see right through it.
Another program that won't help me because I bought within my means. Amazing how that works.
bobn
What happens if your "means" get taken away? I've made my payments for two years now, even with husband laid off for almost five months. That can't continue forever though...
PO?
Independents dropping like flies:
Central Valley Business Times
I have to see Erin's reading of Misean's letter if it happened.
found this on db's site.
it's got most of today's stories in it.
sqworl | The Daily Bail Thursday Feb. 12th News Round-up
And someone PLEASE get me Erin reading Misean's pitchforks and torches...
Counterpointer
wassup with this....true?
All Fall Down writes:
For the last year I've been pleading with everyone who suggested cramdowns that they think about what it is they are asking for. Looks like all it takes to change minds is for the president to suggest it.
This isn't a cramdown. Cramdowns are a choice made available to a bankruptcy judge, to be applied to the unsecured portion of a loan made to a borrower in bankruptcy. They don't involve any government subsidy whatsoever and they only apply to a Chapter 13 proceeding.
I'd venture to say that nobody on this board that supported cramdowns would support this proposal.
"What happens if your "means" get taken away?" That's life.
"Cheap Gas is History, again"
Outsider | 02.12.09 - 4:54 pm | #
Gas here NW WA jumped up .07 in a few hours today.
"Independents dropping like flies:"
Yes, they are getting crushed. They are really feeling it. Thus, my submajors allusion above.
Elvis et al., it happened. I turned on CNBC to hear the "silver linings" they'd come up and kidded with Misean that they would surely read his...I was shocked when I hard Erin reading a portion of his email...It was right at the end of that hours segment...