Anonymous 12:03 was me, switching to FireFox in order to enjoy the pleasures of CR Companion late at night. Or something like that. Anyway, FireFox now knows who I am...
BTW, I think the bigger banks ARE seeing runs. That's why the CFO of Bank of America had to explain that they had enough cash to sustain operations for two years. Of course, they only have that cash if they refuse to hand it back to their depositors, but still...
Anyway, we have had our primary checking account at BAC for almost 10 years and opened up a backup account at a credit union last month, per plan, when BAC stock dropped under $10.
I've had personal & business accounts at BofA for 20+ years and don't plan on changing. IMO they are officially TBTF; if they go down there won't be anyone else left standing either.
That said, I never leave anything substantial in those accounts; only enough to pay bills plus some ATM cash.
Its not uncommon to have an agent present an offer with a 'free rent' perdiod in a 5 year lease. That's what escalation clauses are for. Its uncommon to see it advertised on the top of a building in big signage.
"I've had personal & business accounts at BofA for 20+ years and don't plan on changing. IMO they are officially TBTF; if they go down there won't be anyone else left standing either."
They will fail but don't you'll still get your money, the only problem is that not long after that it will be worthless.
Summers Says Obama Mortgage Plan to Focus on Reducing Payments - Bloomberg.com
The White House is willing to spend more than the $50 billion already pledged to stem home foreclosures and intends to focus its efforts on reducing monthly mortgage payments, not principal, said Lawrence Summers, the presidents top economic adviser.
Were prepared to do what is necessary, Summers said in an interview today on Bloomberg Televisions Political Capital with Al Hunt, scheduled to air this weekend. Going directly at the problem means addressing affordability by addressing payments.
I fear the economy will probably be showing decline and jobs will probably be being lost for some time going forward, Summers said. He added that the package will probably prevent the unemployment rate from going above 10 percent, after it reached 7.6 percent in January.
They will fail but don't you'll still get your money, the only problem is that not long after that it will be worthless. Anonymous | 02.14.09 - 12:13 am | #
Looks like you've been reading my CR posts from 2 years ago.
I did this chart a few years ago. If you look where the lower 80%'s primary assets reside it becomes shockingly obvious why there is so much political emphasis on housing and maintaining house prices.
It is not the stock market that drives feelings on main street for VERY obvious reasons.
Donald Trump resigned from the board of Trump Entertainment Resorts Inc., the debt-laden casino company he founded, ahead of a possible involuntary bankruptcy filing next week.
The company’s market value has tumbled to $7.3 million from its peak at $842 million in August 2005.
Trump Entertainment’s 8.5 percent note due June 2015 traded at 14 cents on the dollar today, according to Trace, the bond- pricing system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority.
He should apply for a bailout, failure is rewarded these days.
Can Summers and the rest of the economic geniuses really believe that they can stem foreclosures? Are they that much smarter than the geniuses before them, to be able to succeed in the face of dramatically higher unemployment?
When will they realize that principal amounts (and home valuations) must be reduced?
Can Summers and the rest of the economic geniuses really believe that they can stem foreclosures? ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:28 am | #
Relatively unlikely but if you check out my chart, it is obvious why they have to sound incredibly supportive. If a significant part of the bottom 80% are under water then it pays to sound VERY supportive.
I agree that Bank of America and the other biggies are too big to be allowed to blow up, and I'm not at risk of seeing the numerical value of my checking account disappear (only the purchasing power, later...).
However, there is more to choosing a bank than "is my money going to be there".
I think BAC will have to be sent through a federal process (reprivatization, pre-privatization, nationalization, a Swedish Model Enema, or whatever). In that scenario I think there are meaningful risks that I may have some trouble using my checking account funds to pay my bills in my accustomed fashion. The money may be there in my name, but I may not be able to get it out on a moment's notice at some point. They are not going to protect my credit rating when the monthly bills roll in! I need the security of knowing that I've got an alternative to just biting my nails and watching my 800 FICO go down when that happens.
Also, I've reached the point where I'm so pissed at the way the "Wall Street", TBTF-class banks have handled themselves, that I want my money elsewhere. I don't want Ken Lewis or any of the other big bankers skimming any more profits off me, squandering them, and then demanding my tax dollars as reimbursement, dammit!
One thing that this crisis has taught me is that while our votes in the polling place may not count that much, collectively our votes in the marketplace are driving policy changes that are long overdue. One of those is to clean house at BAC, C, JPM etc. I am voting for that with my money, slowly and surely.
In the post-bubble world especially, investing isn't just a financial game, it's a moral game as well. What's left of the world's capital needs to be put to constructive use!
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 12:27 am | #
Critical, stable and off the ventilator but with spiked BP at stroke level when I left at 6 p.m.
"Excellent point! Warren could be a better hideout than the hills, given that nobody expects to find anything of value there."
@ Bear
I don't know; I think you may be onto something. Everybody's going to be looking for supplies in the rural redoubts. What better place to hole up than a B of A branch or a Sears? I mean, by the, nobody will expect to find anything of value there, right?
Don't you think or worry much of this talk is to stem impending riots? I do. FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 12:39 am | #
Oh yeah. In fact that's the whole point of the stimulus.
p.s.: Sounds like your daughter's condition is improving, which I am very happy to hear. Isn't that what the doctors call "guardedly optimistic"? We'll keep her in our thoughts.
I don't see riots in the immediate future, FFDIC. Now, when the military stops providing jobs, and enough people are packed, 3 families to a house in low income neighborhoods, with no grants for education or job training, employment bennies used up, and no prospects, it'll be riot city.
We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
I wish my poor old feet were in better shape...
Hawaii beach front property, free rent for 12 months. Enjoy beautiful sunrises and sunsets, crystal clear oceans with gentle tradewinds and all the fish you can catch (via fishing pole or Hawaiian sling spear). the only drawback is you have to share your piece of paradise with the other homeless people living on the beach.
But if I had to choose between a dilapidated brick building in depressed economy with little to no opportunity for income, I'd choose homelessness on the beach in Hawaii.
One other insight I took from it is that ownership of "Non-equity financial assets", which I take to mean "bonds", are more heavily skewed towards the top 0.5%. The rest of the top 5% are more into stocks and housing.
This shows the class-warfare impact of the "save the bondholders; damn the homeowners" policies we've seen so far. When you save the bondholders you save mainly the top 0.5% and to a lesser extent the top 5%.
This shows the class-warfare impact of the "save the bondholders; damn the homeowners" policies we've seen so far. When you save the bondholders you save mainly the top 0.5% and to a lesser extent the top 5%. Wisdom Speaker | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 12:51 am | #
Exactly! It explains so much of the political interplay.
When I was 12, 47 now, I herd a statistic like 1% of the worlds population owned or controlled 80% of everything. That's when my quest began, to rid this world of them scum.
First of all, I send my sincerest wishes for your daughter's recovery.
Regarding riots, I never really considered them as a likely fallout of a housing crash. However, riots might result if folks see enough stories about high-finance robbery amidst the carnage on main street. I expect some perp walks a la Enron/Worldcom to temper the rage.
"When will they realize that principal amounts (and home valuations) must be reduced?"
Here's the problem. From what I've been reading making adjustments to the note itself that is part of a MBS results in the loss in principal being pro-rated across all tranches of the security equally. MBS are written so that losses flow from bottom up. This is why investors take a lower interest rate on a higher tranche versus lower tranche.
This instantly blows up the securitization market. Investors will never buy another AAA tranche going forward under this scenario. In addition this causes instant write-down of every tranche of every affected MBS.
Barley | 02.14.09 - 12:50 am | #
Bankrupcty is always an option. And, additional bank closings will force a lot of hands. It is never going to be business as usual in our remaining lifetimes.
I don't see riots in the immediate future, FFDIC. Now, when the military stops providing jobs, and enough people are packed, 3 families to a house in low income neighborhoods, with no grants for education or job training, employment bennies used up, and no prospects, it'll be riot city.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
Hot summer, tons of angry unemployed kids and one unfortunate mistake by a cop pulling some punk over and a major US city could burn to the ground. Could happen this summer, next summer or about any summer in the next 5-10 years.
FFDIC 2 things:
1) I owe you some hooter beers. We didn't make 700 up, and the sheeple still haven't made it out of hooter's yet. With that, let me know when you are in town, and we will go have some Hooter beer.
2) I was browsing the FED website today. I was thinking about applying for some Regulatory work. I have no experience in finance, but a law degree come July. I don't think that whole math thingy is that much of a requirement...what's your thought on my chances?
"Anonymous writes:
Michael - how's that goin' for ya?
Anonymous | 02.14.09 - 12:56 am |"
Through my think tanks concentrating on taking out sectors, it's working out very well. I thank God every day for assisting us with the global economic catastrophy.
Regarding riots, I never really considered them as a likely fallout of a housing crash. ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:55 am | #
It's the mass unemployment that worries Washington -- too many angry people with lots of time on their hands. Activism could turn ugly in a heartbeat, just like those post-NBA championship celebrations that end up with burning, overturned cars.
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:55 am | #
I was thinking people might get a little annoyed hungry, homeless and listening to Kudlow on WalMart big screens talking up mustard seeds.. maybe I'm wrong. I was one time.
THERE IS NO EASY WAY OUT. Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 12:56 am | #
Yep, but this is why I believe that devaluation will be considered in the not so distant future. It solves these problems as well as a few more and is well tested.
dryfly, with time compression in full swing, "immediate future" means about 90 days to me. It's hard to see the midterm these days. Longer term seems pretty clear, in comparison.
"Yep, but this is why I believe that devaluation will be considered in the not so distant future. It solves these problems as well as a few more and is well tested."
I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression.
It's already starting, the warning signs are everywhere, Europe, India/China ...
It's the mass unemployment that worries Washington -- too many angry people with lots of time on their hands. Activism could turn ugly in a heartbeat, just like those post-NBA championship celebrations that end up with burning, overturned cars. Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 12:59 am | #
Bingo - we have a winner.
Typical rioter doesn't give a shit if the banks rob us or not - they've been 'robbed' their whole damn lives nothing new with that... but when they lose their McJob in the brave new world of 'welfare reform'... it is only going to take a little spark to blow it all up.
Hope we have a cool wet summer - then maybe they'll take it out on wife, kids and dog.
Enron is still in the back of a lot of boomers' mind. Specifically in texas. Those 401'k losses of such a bellweather company changed the psyche of a lot of people I think.
It's already starting, the warning signs are everywhere, Europe, India/China ... Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:03 am | #
No disagreement here. However, some of it I expect to be coordinated among the G20. I also expect not just a currency devaluation but a money supply multiplier devaluation because that is really how you address the domestic issues. It's all so 1933.
JD2B | 02.14.09 - 12:58 am | #
I honestly think your chances are excellent. Might brush up a bit on banking law to impress, rules and regs, and since you obviously have an interest here that is helpful. I worked with many FDIC lawyers who when they were hired knew zero but because they were semi-bright and wanted to work hard did well. Others bombed out either early or later some from drink and drugs. The work right now will be really difficult, travel may be constant but it's a great gig for a young person willing to live out of a hotel and not have much of a home life. Lots of singles at FDIC only live for FDIC and nothing else from what I could tell. I would definitely give it a shot. If you hate the first slot you can always post for something else either at FDIC or another federal agency. You will also meet dozens of friends for life and probably a mate if you aren't married yet. Those FDIC women are a real piece of work. Memories...in those bank closing fuck-like-rabbit hotels.
Summers just said tonight that these steps will probably keep unemployment below 10%. Two weeks ago he was talking about probably keeping unemployment below 9%.
"I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression. -------------------- Is it a deflationary depression?"
Until the Chinese stop buying our treasuries deflationary. After that who knows. Right now imports are dropping faster than exports in China which is keeping their trade surplus sky high. They have to keep buying right now.
Will be considered? Oh, you mean an "official" devaluation and not just hyperinflation. Same basic result, no? Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 1:04 am | #
Not in my opinion. An announced devaluation is much more beneficial and does not have to lead to hyperinflation. In fact, I believe it is the way to prevent hyperinflation but force an escape from deflation. As an example, what happened in 19934/4 did not result in hyperinflation but just about immediately stopped the deflationary spiral.
"Not in my opinion. An announced devaluation is much more beneficial and does not have to lead to hyperinflation. In fact, I believe it is the way to prevent hyperinflation but force an escape from deflation. As an example, what happened in 19934/4 did not result in hyperinflation but just about immediately stopped the deflationary spiral."
We've never attempted a globally coordinated devaluation in a fully fiat based environment before. This is all new what is happening now. Last time we were gold backed. Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants.
I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression. Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:03 am | #
That is a much bigger problem for the exporters than for the importers. In the 30s the US took it on the chops much tougher than Europe because we were the exporter then & the rounds of devaluation crushed the US exports. Now the shoe is on the other foot. And we wouldn't have to see additional exports from devaluation to see benefit - just import a lot less. It's the net that matters most.
But 'yes' that would result in less consumption overall. A depression? Maybe but we can't keep consuming via current account deficit UNLESS they want to fund us and that means we never pay them back. If some one sees a different end game (other than we HAVE TO stop running current account deficits SOMEDAY either by choice or by force)... I'd like to hear it. The only place I heard we could run big CADS forever was from Goldilocks - she was taken out behind the woodshed by some bears and hasn't been seen since.
MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:09 am | #
"He might as well have said that these steps along with a gold butt plug will keep monkeys from flying out of his ass. He has no freaking clue."
Good news MLM! The Trinity Broadcasting Network wanted to know if they could quote you. Please call 1-800-GROCERY MONEY.
Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants. Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:13 am | #
Isn't that what innovation is all about? There is no prescribed path for the situation we are in. You have to adapt and innovate, no choice in the matter IMO. As such there will be failures and some successes but that's unavoidable. It is how political systems work.
As I said recently, the political/economic version of prototyping evolutionary design.
"The only place I heard we could run big CADS forever was from Goldilocks - she was taken out behind the woodshed by some bears and hasn't been seen since.
dryfly | 02.14.09 - 1:15 am |"
Ahh Goldilocks, I was wondering what happened to her.
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us."
"Ahh Goldilocks, I was wondering what happened to her."
Is anyone going to go on CNBC to tell Larry Kudlow that Goldilocks's body was found dumped on the side of the road with a bullet wound to the back of her h
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us." MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:26 am | #
And SLN wasn't all over that? What were they too busy doing Shrub & Palin? Writers need to check out some of those stations way down the cable dial - more out there than just soft porn.
Its electronic gadgetry is gathering dust on the shelves of high street stores, nobody is buying new fridges and the mountain of unsold plasma televisions is growing by the day.
However, in desperation, Panasonic has hit on the perfect counter-attack against the consumer slump: it has ordered every member of staff to go out and buy £1,000 of Panasonic products. ...
She added she is "ready to work with leaders in Asia to resolve the economic crisis that threatens the Pacific as much as any other region, ready to strengthen our historic partnerships and alliances while developing deeper bonds with all nations."
Jan can't boil an egg. FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:33 am | #
She doesn't have to boil an egg, she's dining out on all her followers' grocery money. I know I'm leading a sheltered life, but that shit is way too weird.
Its electronic gadgetry is gathering dust on the shelves of high street stores, nobody is buying new fridges and the mountain of unsold plasma televisions is growing by the day. RE | 02.14.09 - 1:32 am | #
I talked to bartender who also worked at a snowmobile plant during the day - she said the inventory they were holding was MIND BOGGLING. Nothing was moving. And that was after having cut back and laid off... meaning more cut backs & lay offs & the snow season is behind them. The gal I talked to said she tended bar for extra cash & the day job was her 'main money'. That might change.
FT.com / Comment / Analysis - Fumble to stumble
FT
Fumble to stumble
"When youre falling over a cliff like we are now, you need the administration to project a sense of being in command, says David Frum, a former speechwriter to George W. Bush and one of many Republicans experiencing Schadenfreude much sooner than they anticipated. Unfortunately, Geithners guidelines gave the exact opposite impression.
Now that the stimulus monstrosity has passed, we must now scrutinize the appropriations comity of congresses every measure. I want numbers on those appropriations and where it's going.
She doesn't have to boil an egg, she's dining out on all her followers' grocery money. I know I'm leading a sheltered life, but that shit is way too weird. MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:37 am | #
As a kid my dad ran factories in the rural south circa 1960s & I mean way rural. A buddy & I used to stay up late watching local evangelicals on the tube - all hell fire all the time - this was before cable. We would just laugh our asses off - it was way better than any comedy show.
How we didn't get brainwashed and so many others did - I can't answer. Maybe our mommas didn't drop us as often.
depression-era folks occasionally mention the virtue of having a secondary trade... one of many nuggets of generational wisdom recently lost in our culture
It is still that way in much of Dallas. FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:44 am | #
Ya I know - I get down there on business - some of the folks I work w/ are the real deal. Good people just 'different'.
When they come up here to Minneapolis & do plant visits I have to coach them on how to behave around our 'urban humanist' customers. It is pretty funny - I must say. I think of it as 'diversity training'... some days I think I too should write for SNL.
G'night & good luck w/ your girl. We are all thinking of you & yours.
"Small vineyards and wineries are popping up in Nebraska.
I am sure the problem of $7.00 corn and ethanol refineries BK has a lot to do with the bank failure. They learned from Wall Street! \t Economist Moe Howard | \t \t \t \t02.13.09 - 6:58 pm | #"
depression-era folks occasionally mention the virtue of having a secondary trade... one of many nuggets of generational wisdom recently lost in our culture Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 1:50 am | #
Maybe where you live but it wasn't ever lost on the people I knew... plenty of second & third 'trades' around here. I'm coaching my future son-in-law on that now... he's a recent architecture grad & laid off... told him he might have to wait tables and keep his architecture skills alive doing work for 'Habitat'. Not what he had in mind but that is what life is about - doing what you have to do so you can spend the rest of your time doing what you want to do.
If they do cramdowns then all mortgage lending is done for anyone other than the most stellar credit risks. Zephyr | 02.14.09 - 1:51 am | #
Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been. Oddly enough, every other kind of debt is still available - or was until recently.
" Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been. Oddly enough, every other kind of debt is still available - or was until recently."
40% of all consumer debt is securitized. Personally I hope securitization dies, we will get interest rates that match reality. I also hope cramdowns happen.
Don't be silly. Car loans, rental property loans, and second house loans can be crammed down already but they still get securitized. In England they cram down first mortgages same as everything else and they get securitized too.
\tI haven't even gotten to the first two bank closing glory holes of the day. FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:45 am | #
I'm definitely in for a "Hotties of the FDIC" calendar, assuming the greasy haired one plays no part. I'll make sure to check the thread tomorrow morning to see what I missed. And please, no more Jan videos.
I noticed the scratching of heads over the cause of the Nebraska bank failure on the prior bank closing thread. I would bet it was insider fraud. Seen it a trillion times. Almost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both.
MLM writes:
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us."
They need that grocery money so they can afford to keep praying for all the hungry people (head explodes).
MLM - Those 1980s hotties are all plus sizes now or burned out and jaded but they do have some interesting tales to tell. Worth a dinner date just to hear them bitch.
Don't be silly. Car loans, rental property loans, and second house loans can be crammed down already but they still get securitized. In England they cram down first mortgages same as everything else and they get securitized too."
By cramming down primary mortgages the government will be breaking the contract on the MSBs as they are currently structured/written. If they do it once investors will perceive that contract law can be broken again.
Why do you think that Summers backtracked about an hour ago and explicitly stated that principals will not be written down?
Personally I wish they would just do it and get this over with.
Almost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 2:02 am | #
It sure fits the MO from the 2004 lawsuit; however, I believe the losses on the margin calls were somewhere closer to $35 million this go around as opposed to the $5 million in the earlier case.
By cramming down primary mortgages the government will be breaking the contract on the MSBs as they are currently structured/written. If they do it once investors will perceive that contract law can be broken again.
Doesn't change any contracts. Changes bankruptcy rules - but investors didn't scream in panic with similar changes in 2005 and 1994.
Cramdowns are the fair and equitable way to handle undersecuritized loans in bankruptcy. Fair rules don't scare investors.
Why do you think that Summers backtracked about an hour ago and explicitly stated that principals will not be written down?
Summers is trying to rob the country to save the banks and I don't much care what he says. Cramdowns are the traditional way, the fair way, and the equitable way. If Summers has a problem with them he can take a long walk on a short pier as far as I'm concerned.
looking at the other end of the telescope - is it ever ethical for someone with a solid, very high income to walk away from a mortgage because it is deep, deep underwater?
a friend in the IE faces this dilemma (a common one there)
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits!
is it ever ethical for someone with a solid, very high income to walk away from a mortgage because it is deep, deep underwater? Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 2:26 am | #
Sensible maybe, ethical? Well, if you have to ask, I'd guess you're talking situational ethics, so I'd further hypothesize that you're looking to rationalize a way out, which means that you think it's wrong but want to feel less guilty. This is always possible but takes a long career in the kind of ethics classes they give at the White House and in business.
Like it or not the United States will be forced to nationalize large swathes of its banking system by the time the leaves fall from the trees in Washington.
The tragedy is that we will have to wait that long and that the costs will mount.
The plan to rescue the banks, or, er, the people, as enunciated by Treasury Secretary Geithner, is no plan, only an apparent set of contradictory principles: an ideological one not to nationalize and a political one not to subsidize too obviously.
The plan will fail unless the administration comes out in favor of either subsidy or seizure of failing banks. Either the United States will be forced to nationalize when that becomes apparent or perhaps it is waiting until that failure makes nationalization more politically palatable. ...
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits! Lou Minatti | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 2:30 am | #
Now that is a silly comment. You think they accomplished it in less than 30 days? Looked at export figures from Asia lately and the state figures from Basel Too?
Janet Tavakoli does not believe this crisis to be a "black swan" event. Just plain stupid, greedy and criminal event..
...from reader review: "The financial crisis is no Black Swan, but rather a natural consequence of financiers and regulators turning their backs on sound principles of the type that have served Buffett and his investors so well for so long."
Lou Minatti writes:
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits!
"which means that you think it's wrong but want to feel less guilty"
I would never personally be in this situation, insofar as i never borrow a dime in any form. but it's a tough one - is it morally OK to walk out on a mortgage despite the fact that you could easily pay it just because the value of your credit is worth much less than the 250K or so it is underwater, especially relative to how much that cash could help your family?
We are still talking Real Property here, somewhere I think. 'Free Rent' can mean many things. In this case probably the psf triple net rate portion is free (for a year), but not the taxes, insurance etc. Its not a gross lease rate offer. But really who cares, I know.
I'm not sure where morals enter into a decision to exercise one of the options you contracted for with the lender. You both negotiated the deal, and they were certainly in the position of greater knowledge. You both agreed that if you stopped making payments, the bank would foreclose. You are both getting what you bargained for.
With failing government budgets, come leases up for renewal. And they are large square footages. Floors. 3 and 4 and 5 floor leases. So, downsizing will dump millions of sq ft of space into the supply side in every major city. They already can't give it away. That turnaround takes years, normally. And this ain't normal.
I would never personally be in this situation, insofar as i never borrow a dime in any form. but it's a tough one Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 2:55 am | #
Yeah, I thought about changing the "you", but it was easier to write. Morals and ethics are not the same. But if you're talking absolute ethics, then in this situation imagine, instead of a bank, it was an individual who made the loan to this person? A little easier to make the call. Sure you can argue that the bank should have known,...well, all parties should have known. That's why we have contracts, because you can't count on peoples' ethics or morality. If it were me, I might walk, but I wouldn't claim I was ethical,....a claim I don't make now, by the way. One of the things about ethics is that if only the well -being of those you care about were the priority, then there wouldn't be this conundrum, would there?.
"that 125,000 Americans are losing their jobs, every week. Businesses have let go, say 2 of 5 employees and those 3 employees are having to work extra hard..and this anger helps explain recent politics."
Garnick was born in New York. She was identified as a top scholar in elementary school and competed throughout the United States as a math and science champion in the early 1970s. Garnick graduated from Wellington C. Mempham High School in Bellmore, NY in 1985.
Her Wall Street research focuses on all areas of portfolio construction that impact pension plans, foundations and endowments. She has published reports focusing on equity derivatives, index investing, exchange-traded funds, taxation, corporate actions, and quantitative investing as a whole
She is also the founder of the Ladies in Red, an organization formed to create an opportunity for anyone, anywhere, to make a meaningful contribution to society.
Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:13 am | #
These guys made it to the top of the heap by incorporating the system into their identities. They've never lived outside it - not even Barack "Mr. Positive Thinking" Obama.
There is just no f*ing way they will EVER be able to intellectually separate themselves from the current system.
They are incapable of accepting the fact that the status quo cannot be saved or even prolonged. So they are still searching for that magic touch that will preserve it. They know, they just know it's there - it has to be.
Even when they finally "capitulate" to reality and do whatever desperate act they do - nationalize, devalue, invoke martial law - they will still be operating within the paradigm of "saving the status quo."
Which is why we are all so screwed. Because the status quo is terminal. EVERYTHING has to change.
presenttng #4:
Amity Shlaes (born 1960) is an American
In 2005, Shlaes wrote a Financial Times column warning about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and considering nationalization and privatization. She said: "It is time to end Fannie's creepy relationship with government.
Her first book was Germany: The Empire Within, about Germany at the time of reunification. She followed it with The Greedy Hand: How Taxes Drive Americans Crazy and What to Do About It. Her most recent national best-seller is The Forgotten Man: A New History of The Great Depression.
-Wiki
Review of "The Forgotten Man:"
By \tNewt Gingrich
This is a remarkable book which will forever change your understanding of the Great Depression, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's role and the lessons to be learned from government intervention.
Amity Shlaes makes a compelling case that Hoover and Roosevelt actually lengthened the Depression. They did this, Shlaes argues, by following bad monetary policy, which further deflated the currency, and by raising tariff barriers, which broke up world trade and reduced economic activity everywhere.
Shlaes makes the best case I have seen that business confidence is the key to economic expansion and that each step of the New Deal was a further blow to business confidence.
She also explains the view of the pre-government control entrepreneurs and investors who had created an extraordinarily successful country prior to 1929.
Securitization has to stop - it's the root cause of all this.
Allowing Banks to sell loans is essentially allowing them to issue an infinite number of loans - that's what's allowed them to build up the massive leverage they're sitting on. If it wasn't for asset backed securities it wouldn't have been possible.
I guess it also makes a nice sanity test. As soon as the PTB stop talking about restarting securitization we'll know they're finally getting a grip on the situation.
FFDIAlmost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both
Long time ago I heard a guy talking about his job as a regional manager for company I'm not naming. He made an offhand comment the stuck with me. Part of his job was going in and sorting out dealers that were in trouble. The last thing the company wanted to do was to shut down the local dealer, so they'd try and usually could work something out. But if there was fraud, then there was nothing he could do, cause there wasn't trust.
I wonder if banks are dealt with the same way. Or maybe it's just that a bank with a bunch of parasites running it, is inherently weaker. Both?
"You're halfway up and you're halfway down
And the pack on your back is turning you around.
Throw it away, you wont need it up there, and remember
You dont look back whatever you do.
Better start doing it right.
On your left and on your right
Crosses are green and crosses are blue
Your friends didn't make it through.
Out of the night and out of the dark
Into the fire and into the fight
Well that's the way the heroes go, ho! ho! ho!
Through a crack in mother earth,
Blazing hot, the molten rock
Spills out over the land.
And the lavas the lover who licks your boots away. hey! hey! hey!..."
Zephyr"Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been."
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Debt is renegotiated all the time. Always has been. Most of the time it's just business. If the creditor thinks he'll get more money by renegotiating then by forcing the debtor into bankruptcy, he'll do it.
Rumiñahui,(means, "eyes of stone"), born late 15th century, died June 25, 1535, was an Inca warrior who, after the death of Emperor Atahualpa's, led the resistance against the Spanish in the northern part of the Inca Empire (modern-day Ecuador) in 1533.
Rumiñahui had been marching towards Cajamarca to deliver a huge amount of gold.
...believed to have thrown the gold off a cliff, and prepared to resist the Spanish.
Rumiñahui was eventually captured, tortured and killed by the Spanish, however he never revealed the whereabouts of the treasure now known as the Treasure of the Llanganatis.
--Wiki
I grew up in Ecuador. The Llanganatis are mountains in dense jungle that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals...full of mystery,..still.
Gibbon1 writes:
Zephyr"Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been."
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Debt is renegotiated all the time. Always has been. Most of the time it's just business. If the creditor thinks he'll get more money by renegotiating then by forcing the debtor into bankruptcy, he'll do it.
Gibbon1 | 02.14.09 - 4:27 am | #
In the truly free market, debt and the renegotiation of its repayment often involve such things as knee caps, lead pipes, and offers one can't refuse. Interest rates and principal often rise, and property is frequently the subject of direct appropriation in this unfettered world of exchange. All of this is done without securitization, I might add, though security is sold for a price.
When law is involved, however, the market is distorted as people are faced with some modest hurdles and costs when they press for alterations in debtor-creditor relationships that are not mutually agreed upon.
The world of enforced contracts that can't be altered is the world of stern imposition by implacable law and unswerving law enforcement, not the free market. But it is every bit as fictional as the free market.
meet the new boss(Unrated) writes: I don't know; I think you may be onto something. Everybody's going to be looking for supplies in the rural redoubts.
Geeze. Your rural redoubt = militia's bastion region. Will you get your shit stole, your house burned, your wife shot and your kid drafted by the rebels or the government forces? Will it matter? Who would want to be a scratch-farming peasant in a third world rural region torn by civil war?
One generation, we're people who fled here with a truck load of crap. Next generation, the capital is depreciated and you're a dirt farmer, if you're not dead from being in the middle.
"The Llanganatis are mountains in dense jungle that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals...full of mystery,..still."
"Geeze. Your rural redoubt = militia's bastion region. "
The Great Civil Apocalypse Illusion. Only general nuclear war or some earth-wide natural catastrophe might cause such an anarchic situation. An economic depression doesn't begin to compare. I think.
A gaze blank and pitiless as t writes:
Economies collapse when Jews are allowed to take them over and run rampant.
Really? I thought the problems were caused by Mexican strawberry pickers who took control of the government and outwitted Wall St by time traveling back to 1978 to engineer the CRA.
But, you know what???? You never see them picking strawberries on Saturday. Maybe they are Jews. They're always eating rice and beans, too, never carnitas.
But I thought we were all against pork these days? I get so confused when reason reaches these dizzying heights.
They are incapable of accepting the fact that the status quo cannot be saved or even prolonged.
I'd agree..the problem is as much the doctrinaire yes-men our education system produces; and what much of the business world likes to hear. Or simply put - bullshitting works way to much of the time. Them when there actually is a problem, too many have forgotten how to use their brain.
Some things are motivated by hunger, but others are motivated by belief and ego. . \t Broward Horne | \t \t \tHomepage | \t02.14.09 - 5:55 am | #
## Apples and oranges. Perhaps you'd agree that you can isolate, train and indoctrinate a few to carry out the ultimate sacrifice as these peopel did (if theyw ere indeed real people). But the mass uprisings of street level unrest demands more basic motivation.
Feckless Ness(Excellent) writes: We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
Your employers will beat them off the streets or put them behind wire, run their little COINTELPROs and infiltration ops, and make sure nothing comes of that.
The modern American police state will quite effectively prevent any significant institutional reform. This is the legacy of a "anti-terror" mindset and a century of interdiction and mobility warfare.
Pavel Chichikov(Excellent) writes: The Great Civil Apocalypse Illusion.
The illusion is that you will go out and play Little House On The Prairie and fight off mutant bikers.
The reality is a state with limited or nonexistent legitimacy and resources, multiple contenders to the throne, an inability to extend its control over the entirety of its geographic extent, and probably auslander military assets operating is support of the nominal gvt. That kinda shit happens every day all around the world.
An economic depression doesn't begin to compare. I think.
A state needs two things to continue to exist. First, people must believe in it. Second, it must have income streams sufficient to provide political goods that meet or exceed the population's expectations.
Pavel--consider that what can't happen here is happening here, and a mob is not an uprising of course, but.....
Byz--you're right about number one, people believing in it, the other? in light of all the events of the last decade, what makes you think they need income streams?
When you isolate a group already inclined to select for intellectual accomplishment, when you deny them access to agricultural lands and confine them to commerce, when you treat a loosely defined ethnic or religious minority who already are prone to see themselves as distinctive in a way which underscores that distinction, and when you do all of these things in pogroms lasting upward of a thousand years, then you, sir, are the engine of all you find so distasteful.
The modern American police state will quite effectively prevent any significant institutional reform.
I read a supposition once about the Ginza strip, that the Japanese purposely set aside cultural areas of "non-enforcement" as a relief valve for "non-constructive" behavior.
An attempt at excessive control may backfire, creating greater chaos and disorder. California is already having to release minor criminals from prison.
.
Broward, that idea of a populist uprising has a certain fascination among some here, I know, but don't such phenomena generally gather around a central figure of some kind?
Otherwise, I think you get civil unrest which, destructive as it may be, hasn't got the overthrow of a government as its object - it's an outburst of frustration.
Bubblisimo Gerkinov: oh, my! what a big gun you have!
BH: you're not thinking all the way through, besides-the brief flare ups like the LA riots you cite are a result of oppressive policing, lack of opportunity and yes, real hunger
perhaps you need to spend more time amongst those not so much like yourself
Otherwise, I think you get civil unrest which, destructive as it may be, hasn't got the overthrow of a government as its object - it's an outburst of frustration. \t burnside | \t \t \t \t02.14.09 - 7:02 am | #
## and once it coalesces it takes on a life of its own, and yes maybe there is a central figurehead necessary, which will become corrupt and in need of purgation, it's like lather, rinse, repeat
that idea of a populist uprising has a certain fascination among some here, I know, but don't such phenomena generally gather around a central figure of some kind?
My personal belief is that some chunk of the existing order take unexpected action. A group of States will secede, part of the military will take action, somebody will nuke D.C, etc.
I don't think anything can happen at an individual level. But I also don't believe the current course can continue.
.
Broward Horne(Excellent) writes: I read a supposition once about the Ginza strip, that the Japanese purposely set aside cultural areas of "non-enforcement" as a relief valve for "non-constructive" behavior.
Indeed. They have a similar attitutde toward organized crime.
I think it's vastly superior to institutionalize it like they do than do the American "War on (Something That Makes Whites Anxious Which Cops Want To Use As a Procurement And Expansion Driver)".
It can backfire -- look at the dangers of institutional integration on the gvt-private economic side wrt the whole Japanese lost decade. Then again, our system failed in precisely the same way so that argument isn't worth too much any more.
You can't have a moralistic society without outlets for free expression of the natural human urges it attempts to suppress.
It might be topsy-turvy time like Carnivale. It might be semi-formal mobs that enforce social justice like you see in the Yoruban or medieval Christian societies. It might be artificial permissiveness like the Japanese pretense you are not "yourself" when drunk. It might be "free areas" where people can indulge their vices. It might be a tradition of exile or youthful wandering to get the square peg out of the round hole community.
If you don't have some or all of them, you'll shortly have a broken society, as an American society that prefers to think in absolutes and make molehills into mountains will soon teach itself.
When I think of the most nearly positive outcomes - Brits out of India for example, or 'bloodless' revolution in eastern Europe more recently, you might conclude the violent ones are the most misguided.
Spanish police arrest six over massive '£420m London Stock Exchange fraud'
"The brains of the operation may be a man named Abraham Hochman, formerly an agent of the Israeli Mossad, and Diego Magn Selva, who was implicated in the Argentine Trust case, Spanish newspaper El Pais claimed."
volker the viking(Unrated) writes: Byz--you're right about number one, people believing in it, the other? in light of all the events of the last decade, what makes you think they need income streams?
Being a student of the game. Trust me, there is money going into that state apparatus somewhere. It might be foreign lending or handouts from other nations rather than taxation, but The Spice Must Flow.
I think the Russian collapse after 1989 is an interesting thing to read about.
Would you consider Russia 1989-1999 to be "Mad Max's" bartertown? I don't. However, there was a general breakdown and I remember staying up all night long when the Russian military began shelling their White House.
It was amazing.
We could mimic the Japanese 1990 collapse but... first of all, the Japanese are more cultural homogeneous, wiilling to endure "mutual pain" for the greater good.
And I'm not so sure that Japan wasn't free-riding on the larger American bubble for the past seventeen years and maybe there's no other bubble for the U.S. to ride on.
.
burnside(Unrated) writes: When I think of the most nearly positive outcomes - Brits out of India for example, or 'bloodless' revolution in eastern Europe more recently, you might conclude the violent ones are the most misguided.
You replace the Shah with an Ayatollah.
Just IMO, that's cultural bias speaking. You underestimate the evil of the shah and overestimate the evil of the modern Iranian state.
The Iranians did a great job with their revolution. Probably the model for functional theocracies going forward. No like I want to live there, I'm not a Muslim or even a monotheist, but the way they developed the the GC / ulama state-within-a-state was very well-constructed from a technical perspective.
The only reason you haven't seen more from it was the fact that the previous ruler of the state was a darling of the global hegemon. I would not blame their plight on an inefficient state, more on an inefficient state system.
Broward Horne(Excellent) writes: And I'm not so sure that Japan wasn't free-riding on the larger American bubble for the past seventeen years and maybe there's no other bubble for the U.S. to ride on.
My perception is that the Japanese benefited strongly from their position as a distinctly secondary actor not directly tied to the post-Imperial hegemony of the West, and their situation as net savers and a leading global exporter.
The US has many enemies is has made for itself, many obligations it has made for itself, many debts it has made for itself and it is a net debtor and importer. Our attempt to ease on down the road to our own Lost Decade will prove much more eventful than Japan's.
Modern Japan was by all accounts the Mayberry RFD of states at the time. By comparison, the US is like New York City on five hits of acid. The same strategy will produce radically different results here, again, IMO.
I know it's easy to read admiration for the peacock throne into my statement but, having many friends and acquaintances at that time from the region generally, and from Iran in particular, I can tell you I make no judgment regarding the superiority of either regime.
Far more inclined to accept the, as it turned out, varied opinions of Iranians on the subject.
Being a student of the game. Trust me, there is money going into that state apparatus somewhere. It might be foreign lending or handouts from other nations rather than taxation, but The Spice Must Flow. \t Comrade Byzantine_Ruins | \t \t \tHomepage | \t02.14.09 - 7:16 am | #
## c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham, a part of the ponzi, and speaking of Spice, I always had a thing for the one with the pig tails, whew! somebody throw some water on me!
burnside(Unrated) writes: Far more inclined to accept the, as it turned out, varied opinions of Iranians on the subject.
Yeah, that's cool. I'm not exactly admiring of Iran in the great scale of places I appreciate for their holistic quality of life.
But they do have a theocracy that hasn't starved everyone to death despite the best efforts of America, and that's pretty impressive for a theocracy, they generally starve everyone straight away.
It's one of the modern high water marks for state-church union, which is sorta damning with faint praise, but on the whole it seems to be better for its people than the shah's strongman state backed up by Uncle Sam's torturers, money, guns.
I've seen similar comparisons. I'm hoping that they're too pessimistic.
A system like "The United States" is complex and unpredictable.
I think it's predictable that a collapse is likely. However, the outcome is not.
I think that some coalition of States could secede to break away from Federal debt obligations. If that happens, then the race will be on for further secessions to get clear of an exploding debt/imploding revenue base.
Russia had eighty years to degenerate. I think America culture has vestiges of previous "good long-term behavior" that could re-assert itself quicker than Russia has.
.
The only reason you haven't seen more from it was the fact that the previous ruler of the state was a darling of the global hegemon. I would not blame their plight on an inefficient state, more on an inefficient state system. \t Comrade Byzantine_Ruins | \t \t \tHomepage | \t02.14.09 - 7:23 am | #
## you cite a perfect example of why we are where we are in our foreign relations (why is it always foreign relations and domestic affairs?). They rose up because they were oppressed by the system. The system was a propped up Peacock throne, propped up by Britain and by extension the US. When the new authority (God almaighty) became in charge, their orders were unassailable by any current standard and as it played out over the decades since, one sitter by the right hand of God was replaced by another and another until today there is no room for divergence, deviation or any other difference with the holy written word which was delivered from God by god. Any other power or influence or individual is an infidel, corrupt and of the devil. So, until some power highr than man comes along, man will control events. If you hold me down long enough, you will get the blow back. If not from me then from my children or their children. Of course, this is too complex for some here to fathom, what with having to make the rent next week.
volker the viking(Unrated) writes: c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham
And you'll note it appears to be becoming increasingly unstable and markedly less legitimate.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins(Unrated) writes: \tvolker the viking(Unrated) writes: c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham
And you'll note it appears to be becoming increasingly unstable and markedly less legitimate.
$$ Not it, but our understanding and appreciation and trust in it.
I think America culture has vestiges of previous "good long-term behavior" that could re-assert itself quicker than Russia has.
.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 7:38 am | #
I agree. That's generally what Will Hutton says about all pluralistic democracies.
That's generally what Will Hutton says about all pluralistic democracies.
Interesting thread. OT, I worked for an Indian company for the past year and I have a new appreciation for Gandhi. I like Jimmy Rogers, he's always blunt and honest but I disagree with his China fascination.
From what I've seen, the Indians seem much more likely to occupy our vacant hegemon position than China. What I see in India is a synthesis of many strengths of British (western) culture combined with the ethics of Gandhi. They're immature and young but I think compare favorable to the U.S.
The Chinese strike me as too ideological and rigid. I suspect that they are disliked by many of their trading partners.
Anyway, I really should sleep.
Thanks for the interesting links. the Soviet / US comparison is more detailed than what I've read before.
.
Blonderengel(Excellent) writes: $$ Not it, but our understanding and appreciation and trust in it.
That is "it".
The government exists in your mind -- that is what the "Mandate of Heaven" is all about (in Western polisci lingo, this is "the implicit consent of the governed"). The apparatus is not the state. When it is, that's called warlordism, and it behaves very differently than a "normal" formal state.
Interesting thread. OT, I worked for an Indian company for the past year and I have a new appreciation for Gandhi. I like Jimmy Rogers, he's always blunt and honest but I disagree with his China fascination.
From what I've seen, the Indians seem much more likely to occupy our vacant hegemon position than China. What I see in India is a synthesis of many strengths of British (western) culture combined with the ethics of Gandhi. They're immature and young but I think compare favorable to the U.S.
You were lucky, that was probably the exception and not the norm.
The issues with these two cultures are not that they are young and budding but that they have bad role models.
It happens every day around you. It's called 'mandatory counseling' for drunk driving or petty drug possession. It's called 'house arrest'. It's called 'private prisons' and 'makig inmates work for their keep'.
All the private-side companies involved in the judicial system are run by people who are part of an iron triangle with the police/judicial apparatus. All the people who get inmate labor are cronies of the state.
The most inoffensive form is that the roads need work so they round up the local "undesirables" (as determined by a roving deputy with a quota) and draft them for corvee labor. The rest are just outright corruption.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told a news conference that the plan was "not intended to be measured by one day's market score-keeping, but instead to ensure that the 10,000 Americans who each day have their homes foreclosed on, and the millions more trying to get by, are protected."
"I would wait until Wednesday to see what the president offers and be careful that we don't set an unreasonable series of expectations based on leaks from God only knows where," Gibbs said. W.House cautions realism over Obama housing plan
| Reuters
In a Christian nation, when disaster strikes, do I fix the problem, or do I use the event as an opportunity to point out how immoral other people are? Do I get down to business, or do I just pray about it? Do I ask, "how can this be!?" or, do I sigh and turn my dreamy gaze towards the Second Coming that will fix everything?
Well, I suppose the answer depends on which way the wind is blowing, what butters my bread the best, and what makes me come out looking less contemptible than my neighbor.
Since my church will be hurt if the banks are dissolved, I suppose the preacher will be preaching and I'll be backing these bankers to the bitter end...
Bubblisimo Gerkinov(Unrated) writes: It makes sense I guess ... an inevitable outcome of a privatised prison system.
It's more than privatization. It has to do with the growth of the law enforcement segment of the population until it is a real meaningful vested interest that can keep producing crimes and punishments for itself so that there can be expanding budgets and expanding opportunities for promotion.
It has to do with the use of law enforcement policies as a proxy for social anxiety. Now you can't lynch niggers as a mob when you get riled up, you have to have the cops do it for you, which they gladly take care of.
And it's not just blacks and beaners, stressed populations with no equipment to deal with the stress constantly lash out. It'll be druggos or beaners or muslims or political dissidents or long haired freaks or whatever comes to hand. In our case, we're both really fucked and really ignorant, so we have all of the above labeled as enemies of society.
I think privatization isn't really the cause so much as another symptom that we have a failure to align the means at hand and our social concept with reality, and that we'd rather have the illusion than the reality.
It's just the civil order equivalent of the Reagan-and-on destruction of the financial system; an exercise in can-kicking that can only be seen in complex societies too ensnared in their own self-generated illusions to change fundamental policies even when they're dying. It doesn't matter if it's ludicrous on the face and defies all reason, it just matters that the stage set of prosperity can go unquestioned for another day.
When my extended family got together over Christmas, I blamed this crisis on "democrats giving poor people loans." Man! Who could have imagined that poor people could have so much power to bring down the whole system!..it's that evil,..aborting babies and pornogrifying, no doubt.
Helping poor people hurts poor people, I told my nephew. What they need is our Christian love. Then they will learn to stand on their own two feet. Besides, God will take care of them if they are good..if they are evil, then they deserve to die.
Otherwise, no one stole Christmas from us! We had a fun time celebrating the birth of our Lord.
Here's the problem. From what I've been reading making adjustments to the note itself that is part of a MBS results in the loss in principal being pro-rated across all tranches of the security equally. MBS are written so that losses flow from bottom up. This is why investors take a lower interest rate on a higher tranche versus lower tranche.
Usually bonds are paid sequentially, with the riskiest ones paid last. Sometimes deals contain stipulations that, if certain trigger conditions fail (e.g. level of delinquencies), the AAA bonds start getting paid pro-rata instead of sequentially. But it's not the case for all RMBS deals, so you have to go to the offering documents to see what you've got.
Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel is the son of a Zionist terrorist (Lehi Group) and former officer of the Israeli Army.
In the following video Emanuel puts "terrorists" and the NRA at a same moral level and claims that anyone on the no fly list does not belong in the "American family."
Maya(Unrated) writes: In the following video Emanuel puts "terrorists" and the NRA at a same moral level and claims that anyone on the no fly list does not belong in the "American family."
Were you previously under the illusion this was a fair and just government?
SUCKER. Both sides eagerly collude to serve the same masters, and it isn't a Zionist conspiracy. It's banker robbers and the self-serving desire of Western security forces to increase their numbers and clout by manufacturing threats.
BILL MOYERS: Oligarchy is an un-American term, as you know. It means a government by a small number of people. We don't like to think of ourselves that way.
SIMON JOHNSON: It's a way of governing. As you said. It comes from, you know, a system they tried out in Greece and Athens from time to time. And it was actually an antithesis to democracy in that context.
But, exactly what you said, it's a small group with a lot of power. A lot of wealth. They don't necessarily - they're not necessarily always the names, the household names that spring to mind, in this kind of context. But they are the people who could pull the strings. Who have the influence. Who call the shots.
How do you improve the quality of debate on a chatroom..this question assumes that people are and like to be rational, logical and linear.
Vandalism, especially during prime time, can be blocked. "Improving" the debate kills the debate, or ends the communication because people just walk away, is my take on the article.
Where is the outrage and the prosecutions. The hush money insurance bought with contributions seems to be working like a charm. bearly | 02.14.09 - 10:12 am | #
Why are you surprised? It wasn't like there was 50% turnover in Congress.
The rich pay think tanks, academics, preachers, advertisers and marketeer to train the poor and the middle-class to pretend that they themselves are upper class and that they need to defend upper class values.
The rich use the strategy of drawing potential enemies into the good graces of God, but without the money and huge house.
The rich use the strategy of drawing potential enemies into the good graces of God, but without the money and huge house. \t brushes9 | \t \t \tHomepage | \t02.14.09 - 10:21 am | #
## Absent hope for a better tomorrow humans devolve to less than desirable traits, trends and actions.
Go out in the world, your world, and talk with some people you don't know. Strike up conversations in passing, random acts of communication in the course of your daily life. Do this with at least 3 to 10 folk. Then report back to this forum. I would suggest that a surprising result will be the outcome.
The short-cut and most widely accepted method for bringing up children is to turn them into anxious, parent-pleasers. It is not a big step for the rich to then turn them into anxious, rich-people pleasers.
Hence, there will be no revolution. There will be random violence, but that is all.
Our reality, or matrix, is not political, religious or economic. It has been designed, from the bottom up, after careful study of the human mind, to benefit the oligarchs.
Can somebody tell me what's up with FFDIC's daughter?
ll,
I don't have many details, but I think the answer to your question is that she has been in ICU following complications from a C-section. Here is an update from FFDIC from last night:
Just got home from ICU. Angela off ventilator but blood pressure spiked to stroke levels. She was crying earlier today as they eased her off sedation so that was hard. They cannot tell if she is in pain, worried about her condition, pissed, or what. Still critical but stable as I left.
I guess you have not heard the statement:"shirtsleeve to shirtsleeve in three generations."
Yes I know, it doesn't apply to everyone, however I have another statement:
"first generation steals, the second generation lives on the interest and the third generation lives on the principal"
Its interesting in that what drove the first generation to accumulate the wealth seems to peter out in the succeeding generations...
Suitable for condo conversion?
Leaving you with some change you can believe in!
I'd sublet it out, but it would cost me too much.
Nostrovia
How many brick could be harvested before it fell down?
Anonymous 12:03 was me, switching to FireFox in order to enjoy the pleasures of CR Companion late at night. Or something like that. Anyway, FireFox now knows who I am...
BTW, I think the bigger banks ARE seeing runs. That's why the CFO of Bank of America had to explain that they had enough cash to sustain operations for two years. Of course, they only have that cash if they refuse to hand it back to their depositors, but still...
Anyway, we have had our primary checking account at BAC for almost 10 years and opened up a backup account at a credit union last month, per plan, when BAC stock dropped under $10.
I suppose you still have to pay utilities. Not sure it's worth it. Would I have any potential clients nearby?
Detroit? They can still charge rent in Detroit?!? Must not be as bad there as I've been led to believe.
MoT,
I'm guessing 5, give or take, not including the keystone.
Nostrovia,
We are all Jenga now.
tj,
"They can still charge rent in Detroit?!? "
I know it's late. Um..."Free Rent"
Nostrovia,
Wisdom,
I've had personal & business accounts at BofA for 20+ years and don't plan on changing. IMO they are officially TBTF; if they go down there won't be anyone else left standing either.
That said, I never leave anything substantial in those accounts; only enough to pay bills plus some ATM cash.
I know it's late. Um..."Free Rent"
Comrade Misean is Dope | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 12:08 am | #
Late for you apparently, since I meant "ever", not just after 12 months.
wonder how much the NNN's are? Other than a multiyear lease, I'm assuming that's the catch in this plan.
Its not uncommon to have an agent present an offer with a 'free rent' perdiod in a 5 year lease. That's what escalation clauses are for. Its uncommon to see it advertised on the top of a building in big signage.
Does that include free parking like Leftys?
"I've had personal & business accounts at BofA for 20+ years and don't plan on changing. IMO they are officially TBTF; if they go down there won't be anyone else left standing either."
They will fail but don't you'll still get your money, the only problem is that not long after that it will be worthless.
Wow! How many bedrooms, I mean, rooms in that office? And there's a kitchen, er, break room?
Summers Says Obama Mortgage Plan to Focus on Reducing Payments - Bloomberg.com
The White House is willing to spend more than the $50 billion already pledged to stem home foreclosures and intends to focus its efforts on reducing monthly mortgage payments, not principal, said Lawrence Summers, the presidents top economic adviser.
Were prepared to do what is necessary, Summers said in an interview today on Bloomberg Televisions Political Capital with Al Hunt, scheduled to air this weekend. Going directly at the problem means addressing affordability by addressing payments.
I fear the economy will probably be showing decline and jobs will probably be being lost for some time going forward, Summers said. He added that the package will probably prevent the unemployment rate from going above 10 percent, after it reached 7.6 percent in January.
They will fail but don't you'll still get your money, the only problem is that not long after that it will be worthless.
Anonymous | 02.14.09 - 12:13 am | #
Looks like you've been reading my CR posts from 2 years ago.
Discussion carried over from prior thread.
Wealth Distribution.
I did this chart a few years ago. If you look where the lower 80%'s primary assets reside it becomes shockingly obvious why there is so much political emphasis on housing and maintaining house prices.
It is not the stock market that drives feelings on main street for VERY obvious reasons.
I would not mind living here for free so much.
So much for sustainable development.
intends to focus its efforts on reducing monthly mortgage payments, not principal
Woohoo! Century mortgages, here we come!
That's an interesting chart, RE. Thanks for posting it.
Woohoo! Century mortgages, here we come!
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:21 am | #
House arrest! Do they get free anklets?
Trump Quits Trump Entertainment, Bankruptcy Possible
Trump Quits Trump Entertainment, Bankruptcy Possible (Update3) - Bloomberg.com
Donald Trump resigned from the board of Trump Entertainment Resorts Inc., the debt-laden casino company he founded, ahead of a possible involuntary bankruptcy filing next week.
The company’s market value has tumbled to $7.3 million from its peak at $842 million in August 2005.
Trump Entertainment’s 8.5 percent note due June 2015 traded at 14 cents on the dollar today, according to Trace, the bond- pricing system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority.
He should apply for a bailout, failure is rewarded these days.
Wow! How many bedrooms, I mean, rooms in that office? And there's a kitchen, er, break room?
Outsider | 02.14.09 - 12:14 am | #
Good question!
You could fit an extended family into the right sized office.
Wonder who the previous owner was.
Blackhalo writes:
I would not mind living here for free so much.
Blackhalo | 02.14.09 - 12:19 am | #
I would not mind living here
for free so much.
\t Blackhalo | \t \t \t \t02.14.09 - 12:19 am | #
No mate. There is no taste in that place.
Dallas Morning Snooze Business section reporting area banks starting to feel the pain. Cannot pull up link. Let me act surprised.
Let me act surprised.
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 12:26 am | #
Don't forget to feign "stunned", too. BTW, how's your daughter doing?
Narrow windows, better for defense. Might be worth a look-see.
Re: FFDIC @ 12:14am above...
Can Summers and the rest of the economic geniuses really believe that they can stem foreclosures? Are they that much smarter than the geniuses before them, to be able to succeed in the face of dramatically higher unemployment?
When will they realize that principal amounts (and home valuations) must be reduced?
Narrow windows, better for defense.
meet the new boss | 02.14.09 - 12:28 am | #
Excellent point! Warren could be a better hideout than the hills, given that nobody expects to find anything of value there. [Man, I'm cruel.]
Did everybody forget about the alt-a, pick a payment, teaser rate, liar loans that are resetting in 2009 and 2100?
Wonder if a TAX REVOLT is imminent.
2100?
Michael | 02.14.09 - 12:30 am | #
Getting a little ahead of ourselves aren't we?
Can Summers and the rest of the economic geniuses really believe that they can stem foreclosures?
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:28 am | #
Relatively unlikely but if you check out my chart, it is obvious why they have to sound incredibly supportive. If a significant part of the bottom 80% are under water then it pays to sound VERY supportive.
Holy effing cow. Look what $195k buys you in Detroit:
2230 W Mcnichols Rd, Detroit, MI 48221 - Zillow
I would not mind living here for free so much.
Blackhalo | 02.14.09 - 12:19 am | #
Wow. Of course, you do realize with all those bdr/baths, the extended family is all moving in when they lose their jobs.
Altho there should be enough space for elbow room, just the same.
Of course, you'd want it furnished. You probably couldn't even afford the furniture to fill the place.
Want to know why people are worried about cascading defaults on RMBS backed CDOs? Talk about incestuous.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1380884/000114420406049985/structure1.jpg
No mate. There is no taste in that place.
metabear | 02.14.09 - 12:26 am | #
Yeah, the pool room seems a little forced. But my god, that neighborhood is insane. Get closer to the lake... How is that sustainable?
At least the USG has been honest, the bailout of the banks and financials are just that.
To bailout the banks and financials.
@Comrade Bear and BofA:
I agree that Bank of America and the other biggies are too big to be allowed to blow up, and I'm not at risk of seeing the numerical value of my checking account disappear (only the purchasing power, later...).
However, there is more to choosing a bank than "is my money going to be there".
I think BAC will have to be sent through a federal process (reprivatization, pre-privatization, nationalization, a Swedish Model Enema, or whatever). In that scenario I think there are meaningful risks that I may have some trouble using my checking account funds to pay my bills in my accustomed fashion. The money may be there in my name, but I may not be able to get it out on a moment's notice at some point. They are not going to protect my credit rating when the monthly bills roll in! I need the security of knowing that I've got an alternative to just biting my nails and watching my 800 FICO go down when that happens.
Also, I've reached the point where I'm so pissed at the way the "Wall Street", TBTF-class banks have handled themselves, that I want my money elsewhere. I don't want Ken Lewis or any of the other big bankers skimming any more profits off me, squandering them, and then demanding my tax dollars as reimbursement, dammit!
One thing that this crisis has taught me is that while our votes in the polling place may not count that much, collectively our votes in the marketplace are driving policy changes that are long overdue. One of those is to clean house at BAC, C, JPM etc. I am voting for that with my money, slowly and surely.
In the post-bubble world especially, investing isn't just a financial game, it's a moral game as well. What's left of the world's capital needs to be put to constructive use!
I got my credit cards locked and loaded for something really nice.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 12:27 am | #
Critical, stable and off the ventilator but with spiked BP at stroke level when I left at 6 p.m.
"Excellent point! Warren could be a better hideout than the hills, given that nobody expects to find anything of value there."
@ Bear
I don't know; I think you may be onto something. Everybody's going to be looking for supplies in the rural redoubts. What better place to hole up than a B of A branch or a Sears? I mean, by the, nobody will expect to find anything of value there, right?
When will they realize that principal amounts (and home valuations) must be reduced?
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:28 am | #
Don't you think or worry much of this talk is to stem impending riots? I do.
Don't you think or worry much of this talk is to stem impending riots? I do.
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 12:39 am | #
Oh yeah. In fact that's the whole point of the stimulus.
p.s.: Sounds like your daughter's condition is improving, which I am very happy to hear. Isn't that what the doctors call "guardedly optimistic"? We'll keep her in our thoughts.
That's an interesting chart, RE. Thanks for posting it.
ille_vir | 02.14.09 - 12:22 am | #
Glad you like it. It is one my favorites charts, ever.
I don't see riots in the immediate future, FFDIC. Now, when the military stops providing jobs, and enough people are packed, 3 families to a house in low income neighborhoods, with no grants for education or job training, employment bennies used up, and no prospects, it'll be riot city.
We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
Trump Quits Trump Entertainment, Bankruptcy Possible ...
So how many does that make for Donny boy?
Has he ever not failed?
We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
I wish my poor old feet were in better shape...
FFDIC - glad the condition is improving!
For those older farts (including me) anything over 126/90 is stroke ready...
Buy a cuff and surprize yourself..
So the question is will CRE owners reuce rents to gain occuancy or will they keep them at some level to cover costs?
Basel Too,
Thanks for that chart. Very interesting. Also, great info on States!
Hawaii beach front property, free rent for 12 months. Enjoy beautiful sunrises and sunsets, crystal clear oceans with gentle tradewinds and all the fish you can catch (via fishing pole or Hawaiian sling spear). the only drawback is you have to share your piece of paradise with the other homeless people living on the beach.
But if I had to choose between a dilapidated brick building in depressed economy with little to no opportunity for income, I'd choose homelessness on the beach in Hawaii.
RE, another +10 for that chart.
One other insight I took from it is that ownership of "Non-equity financial assets", which I take to mean "bonds", are more heavily skewed towards the top 0.5%. The rest of the top 5% are more into stocks and housing.
This shows the class-warfare impact of the "save the bondholders; damn the homeowners" policies we've seen so far. When you save the bondholders you save mainly the top 0.5% and to a lesser extent the top 5%.
FFDIC -
Glad to hear your daughter is doing somewhat better. Best wishes.
MLM
This shows the class-warfare impact of the "save the bondholders; damn the homeowners" policies we've seen so far. When you save the bondholders you save mainly the top 0.5% and to a lesser extent the top 5%.
Wisdom Speaker | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 12:51 am | #
Exactly! It explains so much of the political interplay.
Heard a rumor in the hood that the $300 million Dallas mixed use development 'The Glen at Preston Hollow' at I75 and Walnut Hill is on hold/not confirmed. Here are links:
Web Page Under Construction
Provident Realty :: A Visionary Approach To Success
When I was 12, 47 now, I herd a statistic like 1% of the worlds population owned or controlled 80% of everything. That's when my quest began, to rid this world of them scum.
Off to bed here...
FFDIC,
First of all, I send my sincerest wishes for your daughter's recovery.
Regarding riots, I never really considered them as a likely fallout of a housing crash. However, riots might result if folks see enough stories about high-finance robbery amidst the carnage on main street. I expect some perp walks a la Enron/Worldcom to temper the rage.
Michael - how's that goin' for ya?
"When will they realize that principal amounts (and home valuations) must be reduced?"
Here's the problem. From what I've been reading making adjustments to the note itself that is part of a MBS results in the loss in principal being pro-rated across all tranches of the security equally. MBS are written so that losses flow from bottom up. This is why investors take a lower interest rate on a higher tranche versus lower tranche.
This instantly blows up the securitization market. Investors will never buy another AAA tranche going forward under this scenario. In addition this causes instant write-down of every tranche of every affected MBS.
THERE IS NO EASY WAY OUT.
Barley | 02.14.09 - 12:50 am | #
Bankrupcty is always an option. And, additional bank closings will force a lot of hands. It is never going to be business as usual in our remaining lifetimes.
Has he ever not failed?
Bubblisimo Gerkinov | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 12:47 am | #
You're fired!
I don't see riots in the immediate future, FFDIC. Now, when the military stops providing jobs, and enough people are packed, 3 families to a house in low income neighborhoods, with no grants for education or job training, employment bennies used up, and no prospects, it'll be riot city.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
Hot summer, tons of angry unemployed kids and one unfortunate mistake by a cop pulling some punk over and a major US city could burn to the ground. Could happen this summer, next summer or about any summer in the next 5-10 years.
FFDIC 2 things:
1) I owe you some hooter beers. We didn't make 700 up, and the sheeple still haven't made it out of hooter's yet. With that, let me know when you are in town, and we will go have some Hooter beer.
2) I was browsing the FED website today. I was thinking about applying for some Regulatory work. I have no experience in finance, but a law degree come July. I don't think that whole math thingy is that much of a requirement...what's your thought on my chances?
"Anonymous writes:
Michael - how's that goin' for ya?
Anonymous | 02.14.09 - 12:56 am |"
Through my think tanks concentrating on taking out sectors, it's working out very well. I thank God every day for assisting us with the global economic catastrophy.
Regarding riots, I never really considered them as a likely fallout of a housing crash.
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:55 am | #
It's the mass unemployment that worries Washington -- too many angry people with lots of time on their hands. Activism could turn ugly in a heartbeat, just like those post-NBA championship celebrations that end up with burning, overturned cars.
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:55 am | #
I was thinking people might get a little annoyed hungry, homeless and listening to Kudlow on WalMart big screens talking up mustard seeds.. maybe I'm wrong. I was one time.
THERE IS NO EASY WAY OUT.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 12:56 am | #
Yep, but this is why I believe that devaluation will be considered in the not so distant future. It solves these problems as well as a few more and is well tested.
dryfly, with time compression in full swing, "immediate future" means about 90 days to me. It's hard to see the midterm these days. Longer term seems pretty clear, in comparison.
So yeah, I could see some rioting next summer.
I expect some perp walks a la Enron/Worldcom to temper the rage.
ShortCourage | 02.14.09 - 12:55 am | #
Like maybe a few token public stonings or something.
How do you think they'll pick from their ranks ... drawing lots decimation style?
"Yep, but this is why I believe that devaluation will be considered in the not so distant future. It solves these problems as well as a few more and is well tested."
I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression.
It's already starting, the warning signs are everywhere, Europe, India/China ...
Yep, but this is why I believe that devaluation will be considered in the not so distant future.
RE | 02.14.09 - 12:59 am | #
Will be considered? Oh, you mean an "official" devaluation and not just hyperinflation. Same basic result, no?
U haz glod?
It's the mass unemployment that worries Washington -- too many angry people with lots of time on their hands. Activism could turn ugly in a heartbeat, just like those post-NBA championship celebrations that end up with burning, overturned cars.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 12:59 am | #
Bingo - we have a winner.
Typical rioter doesn't give a shit if the banks rob us or not - they've been 'robbed' their whole damn lives nothing new with that... but when they lose their McJob in the brave new world of 'welfare reform'... it is only going to take a little spark to blow it all up.
Hope we have a cool wet summer - then maybe they'll take it out on wife, kids and dog.
Enron is still in the back of a lot of boomers' mind. Specifically in texas. Those 401'k losses of such a bellweather company changed the psyche of a lot of people I think.
I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression.
Is it a deflationary depression?
It's already starting, the warning signs are everywhere, Europe, India/China ...
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:03 am | #
No disagreement here. However, some of it I expect to be coordinated among the G20. I also expect not just a currency devaluation but a money supply multiplier devaluation because that is really how you address the domestic issues. It's all so 1933.
Hope we have a cool wet summer - then maybe they'll take it out on wife, kids and dog.
Classic transference. Much better to take it out on the true perps.
JD2B | 02.14.09 - 12:58 am | #
I honestly think your chances are excellent. Might brush up a bit on banking law to impress, rules and regs, and since you obviously have an interest here that is helpful. I worked with many FDIC lawyers who when they were hired knew zero but because they were semi-bright and wanted to work hard did well. Others bombed out either early or later some from drink and drugs. The work right now will be really difficult, travel may be constant but it's a great gig for a young person willing to live out of a hotel and not have much of a home life. Lots of singles at FDIC only live for FDIC and nothing else from what I could tell. I would definitely give it a shot. If you hate the first slot you can always post for something else either at FDIC or another federal agency. You will also meet dozens of friends for life and probably a mate if you aren't married yet. Those FDIC women are a real piece of work. Memories...in those bank closing fuck-like-rabbit hotels.
Summers just said tonight that these steps will probably keep unemployment below 10%. Two weeks ago he was talking about probably keeping unemployment below 9%.
Very scary wording there. 10% easy it seems.
Old Detroit didn't fare too well until Robocop showed up.
"Good business is where you find it."
"I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression.
--------------------
Is it a deflationary depression?"
Until the Chinese stop buying our treasuries deflationary. After that who knows. Right now imports are dropping faster than exports in China which is keeping their trade surplus sky high. They have to keep buying right now.
The next sectors we're concentrating taking out are the public employee sector and the medical industrial complex.
Summers just said tonight that these steps will probably keep unemployment below 10%.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:07 am | #
He might as well have said that these steps along with a gold butt plug will keep monkeys from flying out of his ass. He has no freaking clue.
Will be considered? Oh, you mean an "official" devaluation and not just hyperinflation. Same basic result, no?
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 1:04 am | #
Not in my opinion. An announced devaluation is much more beneficial and does not have to lead to hyperinflation. In fact, I believe it is the way to prevent hyperinflation but force an escape from deflation. As an example, what happened in 19934/4 did not result in hyperinflation but just about immediately stopped the deflationary spiral.
And yes, IMO it is gold friendly.
Office of official stability thanks you for your contribution :
http://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/eesa/docs/transaction_report_02-10-09.pdf
LOL!
In the not too distant future they will be wishing for the good old days of 10% unemployment. Ask California...
"Not in my opinion. An announced devaluation is much more beneficial and does not have to lead to hyperinflation. In fact, I believe it is the way to prevent hyperinflation but force an escape from deflation. As an example, what happened in 19934/4 did not result in hyperinflation but just about immediately stopped the deflationary spiral."
We've never attempted a globally coordinated devaluation in a fully fiat based environment before. This is all new what is happening now. Last time we were gold backed. Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants.
The on-topic discussion didn't last very long on this thread (fine with me), so here's something I always like to post:
PE Ratios of Indices:
Dow = 18.62
Nas = 27.70
S&P = 23.08
Truly amazing and scary. And investors have to start worrying
that perhaps these low earnings levels are the new normal for the next decade or so...
Note: Figures from WSJ Market Data Center, using Trailing Twelve Month (ttm) earnings figures.
California will be okay. People are pretty enterprising, for the most part. We'll muddle through.
An announced devaluation is much more beneficial and does not have to lead to hyperinflation.
RE | 02.14.09 - 1:10 am | #
True, but doubt they'll handle it that well.
As an example, what happened in 19934/4...
RE | 02.14.09 - 1:10 am | #
19934/4? I didn't figure the human race to last that long.
"Anonymous writes:
Office of official stability thanks you for your contribution :
404 Not Found 09.pdf
Anonymous | 02.14.09 - 1:10 am |"
Wow! That's amazing. The peeps will be busy with that list.
I agree, but we will get competetive currrency devalution, trade wars and a depression.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:03 am | #
That is a much bigger problem for the exporters than for the importers. In the 30s the US took it on the chops much tougher than Europe because we were the exporter then & the rounds of devaluation crushed the US exports. Now the shoe is on the other foot. And we wouldn't have to see additional exports from devaluation to see benefit - just import a lot less. It's the net that matters most.
But 'yes' that would result in less consumption overall. A depression? Maybe but we can't keep consuming via current account deficit UNLESS they want to fund us and that means we never pay them back. If some one sees a different end game (other than we HAVE TO stop running current account deficits SOMEDAY either by choice or by force)... I'd like to hear it. The only place I heard we could run big CADS forever was from Goldilocks - she was taken out behind the woodshed by some bears and hasn't been seen since.
19934/4? I didn't figure the human race to last that long.
He meant Morlocks and Eloi.
California will be okay.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 1:14 am | #
Let's see, the federal stimulus of $800 per family minus the $1400 in new California taxes... go long pitchforks!
MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:09 am | #
"He might as well have said that these steps along with a gold butt plug will keep monkeys from flying out of his ass. He has no freaking clue."
Good news MLM! The Trinity Broadcasting Network wanted to know if they could quote you. Please call 1-800-GROCERY MONEY.
GIVE US YOUR GROCERY MONEY:
YouTube - jan crouch - Give God your grocery money
Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:13 am | #
Isn't that what innovation is all about? There is no prescribed path for the situation we are in. You have to adapt and innovate, no choice in the matter IMO. As such there will be failures and some successes but that's unavoidable. It is how political systems work.
As I said recently, the political/economic version of prototyping evolutionary design.
"The only place I heard we could run big CADS forever was from Goldilocks - she was taken out behind the woodshed by some bears and hasn't been seen since.
dryfly | 02.14.09 - 1:15 am |"
Ahh Goldilocks, I was wondering what happened to her.
19934/4? I didn't figure the human race to last that long.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 02.14.09 - 1:14 am | #
lol, sorry...
I have a bad feeling for all ETF glod holders...
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us."
"Ahh Goldilocks, I was wondering what happened to her."
Is anyone going to go on CNBC to tell Larry Kudlow that Goldilocks's body was found dumped on the side of the road with a bullet wound to the back of her h
Thanks FFDIC, I appreciate the words!
I'll keep that all in mind!
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us."
MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:26 am | #
And SLN wasn't all over that? What were they too busy doing Shrub & Palin? Writers need to check out some of those stations way down the cable dial - more out there than just soft porn.
As far as living in Michigan goes, I don't think I could mimic the funny accents. They would kill and eat me.
Here is the solution to slow sales:
Panasonic orders staff to buy £1,000 in products
Its electronic gadgetry is gathering dust on the shelves of high street stores, nobody is buying new fridges and the mountain of unsold plasma televisions is growing by the day.
However, in desperation, Panasonic has hit on the perfect counter-attack against the consumer slump: it has ordered every member of staff to go out and buy £1,000 of Panasonic products. ...
dryfly | 02.14.09 - 1:31 am | #
I actually like tired old Jan. I guess she reminds me of mom but mom can cook and Jan can't boil an egg.
Clinton vows to deepen US bonds with Asia
She added she is "ready to work with leaders in Asia to resolve the economic crisis that threatens the Pacific as much as any other region, ready to strengthen our historic partnerships and alliances while developing deeper bonds with all nations."
Now would that be the 10-Yr or 30-yr?
"He might as well have said that these steps along with a gold butt plug will keep monkeys from flying out of his ass. He has no freaking clue."
"Those FDIC women are a real piece of work. Memories...in those bank closing fuck-like-rabbit hotels."
Ha Ha Ha!
Looks like we're in for a good night.
Jan can't boil an egg.
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:33 am | #
She doesn't have to boil an egg, she's dining out on all her followers' grocery money. I know I'm leading a sheltered life, but that shit is way too weird.
Its electronic gadgetry is gathering dust on the shelves of high street stores, nobody is buying new fridges and the mountain of unsold plasma televisions is growing by the day.
RE | 02.14.09 - 1:32 am | #
I talked to bartender who also worked at a snowmobile plant during the day - she said the inventory they were holding was MIND BOGGLING. Nothing was moving. And that was after having cut back and laid off... meaning more cut backs & lay offs & the snow season is behind them. The gal I talked to said she tended bar for extra cash & the day job was her 'main money'. That might change.
FT.com / Comment / Analysis - Fumble to stumble
FT
Fumble to stumble
"When youre falling over a cliff like we are now, you need the administration to project a sense of being in command, says David Frum, a former speechwriter to George W. Bush and one of many Republicans experiencing Schadenfreude much sooner than they anticipated. Unfortunately, Geithners guidelines gave the exact opposite impression.
Now that the stimulus monstrosity has passed, we must now scrutinize the appropriations comity of congresses every measure. I want numbers on those appropriations and where it's going.
Investors will never buy another AAA tranche going forward under this scenario.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 12:56 am | #
There will never be a AAA ratede trance going forward. That shit is done. AAA is supposed to be treasuries.
State foreclosures up 174% - Hawaii Business - Starbulletin.com
Back on the slightly boring topic...
State foreclosures up 174%
Hawaii now ranks 30th nationally, up 12 places from this time last year
CR may get his Hawaii crash pad yet.
She doesn't have to boil an egg, she's dining out on all her followers' grocery money. I know I'm leading a sheltered life, but that shit is way too weird.
MLM | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 1:37 am | #
As a kid my dad ran factories in the rural south circa 1960s & I mean way rural. A buddy & I used to stay up late watching local evangelicals on the tube - all hell fire all the time - this was before cable. We would just laugh our asses off - it was way better than any comedy show.
How we didn't get brainwashed and so many others did - I can't answer. Maybe our mommas didn't drop us as often.
dryfly | 02.14.09 - 1:42 am | #
It is still that way in much of Dallas.
"I was thinking people might get a little annoyed hungry, homeless and listening to Kudlow on WalMart big screens talking up mustard seeds..."
Except that most of them probably think he is talking about gardening.
"
There will never be a AAA ratede trance going forward. That shit is done. AAA is supposed to be treasuries."
Except Geithner is explicitly stating they need to get the securitization process started again. If they do cram-downs securitization is done.
As I said before there are no easy solutions.
I haven't even gotten to the first two bank closing glory holes of the day.
"That might change."
depression-era folks occasionally mention the virtue of having a secondary trade... one of many nuggets of generational wisdom recently lost in our culture
It is still that way in much of Dallas.
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:44 am | #
Ya I know - I get down there on business - some of the folks I work w/ are the real deal. Good people just 'different'.
When they come up here to Minneapolis & do plant visits I have to coach them on how to behave around our 'urban humanist' customers. It is pretty funny - I must say. I think of it as 'diversity training'... some days I think I too should write for SNL.
G'night & good luck w/ your girl. We are all thinking of you & yours.
"Those FDIC women are a real piece of work. Memories...in those bank closing fuck-like-rabbit hotels."
I guess that would explain my sister-in-law. She used to be on an OTS SWAT team.
"Except Geithner is explicitly stating they need to get the securitization process started again. If they do cram-downs securitization is done."
If they do cramdowns then all mortgage lending is done for anyone other than the most stellar credit risks.
What are our old friends Paulson and Kashkari doing now? Beach House in Hawaii?
Since I live in NE and am just catching up:
"Small vineyards and wineries are popping up in Nebraska.
I am sure the problem of $7.00 corn and ethanol refineries BK has a lot to do with the bank failure. They learned from Wall Street!
\t Economist Moe Howard | \t \t \t \t02.13.09 - 6:58 pm | #"
More brilliant speculation from the third stooge. Thanks, Moe - that was useless.
Here's the reality:
http://new.khastv.com/videoplaylist.php?playid=16235
and best yet, the same bank was called on it 4 years ago.
http://www.cftc.gov/opa/enf04/opa5030-04.htm
depression-era folks occasionally mention the virtue of having a secondary trade... one of many nuggets of generational wisdom recently lost in our culture
Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 1:50 am | #
Maybe where you live but it wasn't ever lost on the people I knew... plenty of second & third 'trades' around here. I'm coaching my future son-in-law on that now... he's a recent architecture grad & laid off... told him he might have to wait tables and keep his architecture skills alive doing work for 'Habitat'. Not what he had in mind but that is what life is about - doing what you have to do so you can spend the rest of your time doing what you want to do.
If they do cramdowns then all mortgage lending is done for anyone other than the most stellar credit risks.
Zephyr | 02.14.09 - 1:51 am | #
Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been. Oddly enough, every other kind of debt is still available - or was until recently.
"
Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been. Oddly enough, every other kind of debt is still available - or was until recently."
40% of all consumer debt is securitized. Personally I hope securitization dies, we will get interest rates that match reality. I also hope cramdowns happen.
Looks like Kashkari stuck around...
The article requested is no longer available.
"Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been."
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Gee, Uncle B, don't you climb stuff any more?
If they do cram-downs securitization is done.
Don't be silly. Car loans, rental property loans, and second house loans can be crammed down already but they still get securitized. In England they cram down first mortgages same as everything else and they get securitized too.
Billionaire downplays scrutiny of Stanford Financial | Chronicle | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
Texas billionaire downplays scrutiny of Stanford Financial
Feck: Sure, but elsewhere. All that perspiration is wasted on these hills.
\tI haven't even gotten to the first two bank closing glory holes of the day.
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 1:45 am | #
I'm definitely in for a "Hotties of the FDIC" calendar, assuming the greasy haired one plays no part. I'll make sure to check the thread tomorrow morning to see what I missed. And please, no more Jan videos.
Again, best wishes to you and your daughter.
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Zephyr | 02.14.09 - 1:58 am | #
Oops. We're discussing cramdowns outside of bankruptcy? "Nevermind"
I noticed the scratching of heads over the cause of the Nebraska bank failure on the prior bank closing thread. I would bet it was insider fraud. Seen it a trillion times. Almost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both.
MLM writes:
Thanks alot FFDIC, that'll be good for a sleepless night or two. Colloid-lip pink-haired freaks for Jesus say, "All ur grocery moneyz are belong to us."
They need that grocery money so they can afford to keep praying for all the hungry people (head explodes).
MLM - Those 1980s hotties are all plus sizes now or burned out and jaded but they do have some interesting tales to tell. Worth a dinner date just to hear them bitch.
"If they do cram-downs securitization is done.
Don't be silly. Car loans, rental property loans, and second house loans can be crammed down already but they still get securitized. In England they cram down first mortgages same as everything else and they get securitized too."
By cramming down primary mortgages the government will be breaking the contract on the MSBs as they are currently structured/written. If they do it once investors will perceive that contract law can be broken again.
Why do you think that Summers backtracked about an hour ago and explicitly stated that principals will not be written down?
Personally I wish they would just do it and get this over with.
mattdog | 02.14.09 - 1:50 am | #
Yeah, I think I remember her. Nice!
Almost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both
FFDIC | 02.14.09 - 2:02 am | #
It sure fits the MO from the 2004 lawsuit; however, I believe the losses on the margin calls were somewhere closer to $35 million this go around as opposed to the $5 million in the earlier case.
Farmers got fscked.
... burned out and jaded ...
Aren't we all?
Night. Have a good weekend all.
FFDIC,
I was thinking about you all day, hope your well; I saw the report above. Take care!
Oh my God, it's UB?
Looks like a great place to park cars!
I was thinking about you all day
Likewise, especially since I work in an NICU. I would be pleased if I could ever be of service to you.
I'm fadin' out. G'night.
By cramming down primary mortgages the government will be breaking the contract on the MSBs as they are currently structured/written. If they do it once investors will perceive that contract law can be broken again.
Doesn't change any contracts. Changes bankruptcy rules - but investors didn't scream in panic with similar changes in 2005 and 1994.
Cramdowns are the fair and equitable way to handle undersecuritized loans in bankruptcy. Fair rules don't scare investors.
Why do you think that Summers backtracked about an hour ago and explicitly stated that principals will not be written down?
Summers is trying to rob the country to save the banks and I don't much care what he says. Cramdowns are the traditional way, the fair way, and the equitable way. If Summers has a problem with them he can take a long walk on a short pier as far as I'm concerned.
looking at the other end of the telescope - is it ever ethical for someone with a solid, very high income to walk away from a mortgage because it is deep, deep underwater?
a friend in the IE faces this dilemma (a common one there)
of course, the scenario i described is also relevant insofar as no bk means no cramdown - interesting assumptions are baked into many cakes
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits!
is it ever ethical for someone with a solid, very high income to walk away from a mortgage because it is deep, deep underwater?
Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 2:26 am | #
Sensible maybe, ethical? Well, if you have to ask, I'd guess you're talking situational ethics, so I'd further hypothesize that you're looking to rationalize a way out, which means that you think it's wrong but want to feel less guilty. This is always possible but takes a long career in the kind of ethics classes they give at the White House and in business.
Another voice on nationalization:
Nationalization by autumn, bank on it
Like it or not the United States will be forced to nationalize large swathes of its banking system by the time the leaves fall from the trees in Washington.
The tragedy is that we will have to wait that long and that the costs will mount.
The plan to rescue the banks, or, er, the people, as enunciated by Treasury Secretary Geithner, is no plan, only an apparent set of contradictory principles: an ideological one not to nationalize and a political one not to subsidize too obviously.
The plan will fail unless the administration comes out in favor of either subsidy or seizure of failing banks. Either the United States will be forced to nationalize when that becomes apparent or perhaps it is waiting until that failure makes nationalization more politically palatable. ...
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits!
Lou Minatti | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 2:30 am | #
Now that is a silly comment. You think they accomplished it in less than 30 days? Looked at export figures from Asia lately and the state figures from Basel Too?
Janet Tavakoli does not believe this crisis to be a "black swan" event. Just plain stupid, greedy and criminal event..
...from reader review: "The financial crisis is no Black Swan, but rather a natural consequence of financiers and regulators turning their backs on sound principles of the type that have served Buffett and his investors so well for so long."
Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Dear Mr. Buffett: What An Investor Learns 1,269 Miles From Wall Street
Take a powder Lou..another one.
from her Bloomberg video 10 days ago:
"There were no black swans here..it was not a problem of models..but of malfeasance."
YouTube - In-Depth Look - United States of Banking? - Bloomberg
Wingnut Alert!
Lou Minatti writes:
Barack Obama: Mission accomplished! Barry and his crazy greedy Donks have managed to turn Bush's recession into Barack Obama's Depression. Swell job, dipshits!
"which means that you think it's wrong but want to feel less guilty"
I would never personally be in this situation, insofar as i never borrow a dime in any form. but it's a tough one - is it morally OK to walk out on a mortgage despite the fact that you could easily pay it just because the value of your credit is worth much less than the 250K or so it is underwater, especially relative to how much that cash could help your family?
We are still talking Real Property here, somewhere I think. 'Free Rent' can mean many things. In this case probably the psf triple net rate portion is free (for a year), but not the taxes, insurance etc. Its not a gross lease rate offer. But really who cares, I know.
I'm not sure where morals enter into a decision to exercise one of the options you contracted for with the lender. You both negotiated the deal, and they were certainly in the position of greater knowledge. You both agreed that if you stopped making payments, the bank would foreclose. You are both getting what you bargained for.
With failing government budgets, come leases up for renewal. And they are large square footages. Floors. 3 and 4 and 5 floor leases. So, downsizing will dump millions of sq ft of space into the supply side in every major city. They already can't give it away. That turnaround takes years, normally. And this ain't normal.
I can see every major hospital, and those on down the line doing lotteries to survive. We are edging into it now.
I would never personally be in this situation, insofar as i never borrow a dime in any form. but it's a tough one
Don't Cry for Me Tehachapi | 02.14.09 - 2:55 am | #
Yeah, I thought about changing the "you", but it was easier to write. Morals and ethics are not the same. But if you're talking absolute ethics, then in this situation imagine, instead of a bank, it was an individual who made the loan to this person? A little easier to make the call. Sure you can argue that the bank should have known,...well, all parties should have known. That's why we have contracts, because you can't count on peoples' ethics or morality. If it were me, I might walk, but I wouldn't claim I was ethical,....a claim I don't make now, by the way. One of the things about ethics is that if only the well -being of those you care about were the priority, then there wouldn't be this conundrum, would there?.
Diane Garnick on Bloomberg video, today, says
"that 125,000 Americans are losing their jobs, every week. Businesses have let go, say 2 of 5 employees and those 3 employees are having to work extra hard..and this anger helps explain recent politics."
Bloomberg.com:
Editors' Video Picks
From Wiki: Diane Garnick (b. 1/19/67)
Garnick was born in New York. She was identified as a top scholar in elementary school and competed throughout the United States as a math and science champion in the early 1970s. Garnick graduated from Wellington C. Mempham High School in Bellmore, NY in 1985.
Her Wall Street research focuses on all areas of portfolio construction that impact pension plans, foundations and endowments. She has published reports focusing on equity derivatives, index investing, exchange-traded funds, taxation, corporate actions, and quantitative investing as a whole
She is also the founder of the Ladies in Red, an organization formed to create an opportunity for anyone, anywhere, to make a meaningful contribution to society.
..she pays alimony to her ex!
Meredith Whitney is married to WWE wrestler, John "Bradshaw" Layfield.
In October 2008 Whitney, was ranked as one of Fortune 500s 50 Most Powerful Women in Business.
In 2008 she won CNBC's "Power Player of the Year" over Jamie Dimon, Ben Bernake, and Hank Paulson.
(from Wiki)
Yes, Meredith...player #3 in my series: "Smart Women of the Meltdown!"
In this recent interview, Meredith says that new, smaller banks will be hot going forward..(6min into interview).
YouTube - Exclusive Interview With Meredith Whitney - Bloomberg
Who knows what will happen. Everyone, including Summers, Geithner and Obama are flying by the seats of their pants.
Pissed Off In California | 02.14.09 - 1:13 am | #
These guys made it to the top of the heap by incorporating the system into their identities. They've never lived outside it - not even Barack "Mr. Positive Thinking" Obama.
There is just no f*ing way they will EVER be able to intellectually separate themselves from the current system.
They are incapable of accepting the fact that the status quo cannot be saved or even prolonged. So they are still searching for that magic touch that will preserve it. They know, they just know it's there - it has to be.
Even when they finally "capitulate" to reality and do whatever desperate act they do - nationalize, devalue, invoke martial law - they will still be operating within the paradigm of "saving the status quo."
Which is why we are all so screwed. Because the status quo is terminal. EVERYTHING has to change.
presenttng #4:
Amity Shlaes (born 1960) is an American
In 2005, Shlaes wrote a Financial Times column warning about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and considering nationalization and privatization. She said: "It is time to end Fannie's creepy relationship with government.
Her first book was Germany: The Empire Within, about Germany at the time of reunification. She followed it with The Greedy Hand: How Taxes Drive Americans Crazy and What to Do About It. Her most recent national best-seller is The Forgotten Man: A New History of The Great Depression.
-Wiki
Review of "The Forgotten Man:"
By \tNewt Gingrich
This is a remarkable book which will forever change your understanding of the Great Depression, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's role and the lessons to be learned from government intervention.
Amity Shlaes makes a compelling case that Hoover and Roosevelt actually lengthened the Depression. They did this, Shlaes argues, by following bad monetary policy, which further deflated the currency, and by raising tariff barriers, which broke up world trade and reduced economic activity everywhere.
Shlaes makes the best case I have seen that business confidence is the key to economic expansion and that each step of the New Deal was a further blow to business confidence.
She also explains the view of the pre-government control entrepreneurs and investors who had created an extraordinarily successful country prior to 1929.
-Amazon
YouTube - Jeff Rense | Webster G. Tarpley 020409 "Demogogic Fakery" 4/4
On this video, it is pointed out that New Deal policies, besides prolonging the depression (Shlaes), also prolonged many people's lives...
warning: Austrian alert.
No more shoddy products that need to be replaced in six months.
No more supporting mass communication by advertising.
No more 50% of work force employed by government.
No more billion dollar incomes.
No more borrowing from the future.
No more 30% of healthcare dollars going to insurance middlemen.
No more lying for a living.
No more socioeconomic complexity.
No more rose-colored glasses.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
Securitization has to stop - it's the root cause of all this.
Allowing Banks to sell loans is essentially allowing them to issue an infinite number of loans - that's what's allowed them to build up the massive leverage they're sitting on. If it wasn't for asset backed securities it wouldn't have been possible.
I guess it also makes a nice sanity test. As soon as the PTB stop talking about restarting securitization we'll know they're finally getting a grip on the situation.
-- w
.
YouTube - Broken Arrow - Goddamn what a rush!
.
John Travolta comments on economy's crash-and-burn.
Webster Griffen Tarpley on Jeff Rense tears into all Austrian Anarcho-Economist:
YouTube - Jeff Rense | Webster G. Tarpley 020409 "Demogogic Fakery" 4/4
He suggest that Austrians are O.K. with people getting billion-dollar salaries while other people starve, because "the market says so."
I tell you, it is a religion with these people...
FFDIAlmost all failed banks have some minor to major degree of insider fraud, customer fraud or both
Long time ago I heard a guy talking about his job as a regional manager for company I'm not naming. He made an offhand comment the stuck with me. Part of his job was going in and sorting out dealers that were in trouble. The last thing the company wanted to do was to shut down the local dealer, so they'd try and usually could work something out. But if there was fraud, then there was nothing he could do, cause there wasn't trust.
I wonder if banks are dealt with the same way. Or maybe it's just that a bank with a bunch of parasites running it, is inherently weaker. Both?
Breaking News
Video clip of angry American worker; man was spotted just outside of Pittsburg:
YouTube -
Bruce Springsteen - One Step Up
YouTube -
Dance on a Volcano - Genesis
"You're halfway up and you're halfway down
And the pack on your back is turning you around.
Throw it away, you wont need it up there, and remember
You dont look back whatever you do.
Better start doing it right.
On your left and on your right
Crosses are green and crosses are blue
Your friends didn't make it through.
Out of the night and out of the dark
Into the fire and into the fight
Well that's the way the heroes go, ho! ho! ho!
Through a crack in mother earth,
Blazing hot, the molten rock
Spills out over the land.
And the lavas the lover who licks your boots away. hey! hey! hey!..."
PS...that takes one back a few centuries.
.
Zephyr"Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been."
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Debt is renegotiated all the time. Always has been. Most of the time it's just business. If the creditor thinks he'll get more money by renegotiating then by forcing the debtor into bankruptcy, he'll do it.
The Latest from Mish:
On Valentine's Day, Please Hug A Koala
Time to change my rating there, ac.
Not all men are created equal:
Rumiñahui,(means, "eyes of stone"), born late 15th century, died June 25, 1535, was an Inca warrior who, after the death of Emperor Atahualpa's, led the resistance against the Spanish in the northern part of the Inca Empire (modern-day Ecuador) in 1533.
Rumiñahui had been marching towards Cajamarca to deliver a huge amount of gold.
...believed to have thrown the gold off a cliff, and prepared to resist the Spanish.
Rumiñahui was eventually captured, tortured and killed by the Spanish, however he never revealed the whereabouts of the treasure now known as the Treasure of the Llanganatis.
--Wiki
I grew up in Ecuador. The Llanganatis are mountains in dense jungle that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals...full of mystery,..still.
Rumiñahui (Inca warrior) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mish is such a softy.
Q4 earnings will be negative.
Meanwhile,
"Moody's downgrades Genworth Mortgage Insurance Corporation to Baa2"
They whacked a few of the other MI's too.
Images of Ruminahui:
http://accel22.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/24/52/17//DSC03935.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WNeLFbW3JUw/R2_l6oTPvlI/AAAAAAAACtU/Q4JaVAdYVmg/s400/5139_ruminahui.jpg
Gibbon1 writes:
Zephyr"Every other kind of debt is subject to cramdown and always has been."
Without declaring bankruptcy?
Debt is renegotiated all the time. Always has been. Most of the time it's just business. If the creditor thinks he'll get more money by renegotiating then by forcing the debtor into bankruptcy, he'll do it.
Gibbon1 | 02.14.09 - 4:27 am | #
In the truly free market, debt and the renegotiation of its repayment often involve such things as knee caps, lead pipes, and offers one can't refuse. Interest rates and principal often rise, and property is frequently the subject of direct appropriation in this unfettered world of exchange. All of this is done without securitization, I might add, though security is sold for a price.
When law is involved, however, the market is distorted as people are faced with some modest hurdles and costs when they press for alterations in debtor-creditor relationships that are not mutually agreed upon.
The world of enforced contracts that can't be altered is the world of stern imposition by implacable law and unswerving law enforcement, not the free market. But it is every bit as fictional as the free market.
Tongue stuck in cheek. Let go, damn it!
"Thinking Points is a must-read for anyone who doesn't want speaking out to become a dying art."
Arianna Huffington
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/thinkingpoints.html
Or, as John Rambo would put it:
YouTube - Rambo's Punch Line-"Live for Nothing Or Die for Something!!!
Feckless Ness(Excellent) writes:
Holy effing cow. Look what $195k buys you in Detroit:
Wow, you'd think people in California beggared themselves for shotgun shacks and the rest of the coutry thought them head-wounded for their efforts.
Oh wait we do.
a lot of talk about unrest etc, street riots etc, not to worry
it all starts in the belly (when they're hungry)
meet the new boss(Unrated) writes:
I don't know; I think you may be onto something. Everybody's going to be looking for supplies in the rural redoubts.
Geeze. Your rural redoubt = militia's bastion region. Will you get your shit stole, your house burned, your wife shot and your kid drafted by the rebels or the government forces? Will it matter? Who would want to be a scratch-farming peasant in a third world rural region torn by civil war?
One generation, we're people who fled here with a truck load of crap. Next generation, the capital is depreciated and you're a dirt farmer, if you're not dead from being in the middle.
Economies collapse when Jews are allowed to take them over and run rampant.
Americans need to study more history.
"The Llanganatis are mountains in dense jungle that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals...full of mystery,..still."
Perhaps Judge Crater is there.
"Geeze. Your rural redoubt = militia's bastion region. "
The Great Civil Apocalypse Illusion. Only general nuclear war or some earth-wide natural catastrophe might cause such an anarchic situation. An economic depression doesn't begin to compare. I think.
it all starts in the belly (when they're hungry)
How hungry were the 911 terrorists?
Some things are motivated by hunger, but others are motivated by belief and ego.
.
dense jungles that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals
Washington, DC popped into my head when I read this.
.
A gaze blank and pitiless as t writes:
Economies collapse when Jews are allowed to take them over and run rampant.
Really? I thought the problems were caused by Mexican strawberry pickers who took control of the government and outwitted Wall St by time traveling back to 1978 to engineer the CRA.
But, you know what???? You never see them picking strawberries on Saturday. Maybe they are Jews. They're always eating rice and beans, too, never carnitas.
But I thought we were all against pork these days? I get so confused when reason reaches these dizzying heights.
They are incapable of accepting the fact that the status quo cannot be saved or even prolonged.
I'd agree..the problem is as much the doctrinaire yes-men our education system produces; and what much of the business world likes to hear. Or simply put - bullshitting works way to much of the time. Them when there actually is a problem, too many have forgotten how to use their brain.
"dense jungles that defy visitation and are known to be inhabited by strange insects and animals
Washington, DC popped into my head when I read this."
There are some dense thickets in Rock Creek Park, but you're unlikely to find any lobbyists in them. Although, you never know.
How hungry were the 911 terrorists?
Some things are motivated by hunger, but others are motivated by belief and ego.
| \t02.14.09 - 5:55 am | #
.
\t Broward Horne | \t \t \tHomepage
## Apples and oranges. Perhaps you'd agree that you can isolate, train and indoctrinate a few to carry out the ultimate sacrifice as these peopel did (if theyw ere indeed real people). But the mass uprisings of street level unrest demands more basic motivation.
"But the mass uprisings of street level unrest demands more basic motivation. "
I find it impossible to imagine that happening in the US. Anyway, a mob is not a mass uprising.
Feckless Ness(Excellent) writes:
We'll definitely see more protesting in the near term, but activist protesting is a different animal.
Feckless Ness | 02.14.09 - 12:46 am | #
Your employers will beat them off the streets or put them behind wire, run their little COINTELPROs and infiltration ops, and make sure nothing comes of that.
The modern American police state will quite effectively prevent any significant institutional reform. This is the legacy of a "anti-terror" mindset and a century of interdiction and mobility warfare.
Oh yah, then you'll run out of money and the fun will start.
Pavel Chichikov(Excellent) writes:
The Great Civil Apocalypse Illusion.
The illusion is that you will go out and play Little House On The Prairie and fight off mutant bikers.
The reality is a state with limited or nonexistent legitimacy and resources, multiple contenders to the throne, an inability to extend its control over the entirety of its geographic extent, and probably auslander military assets operating is support of the nominal gvt. That kinda shit happens every day all around the world.
An economic depression doesn't begin to compare. I think.
A state needs two things to continue to exist. First, people must believe in it. Second, it must have income streams sufficient to provide political goods that meet or exceed the population's expectations.
some of us need to think this through
Pavel--consider that what can't happen here is happening here, and a mob is not an uprising of course, but.....
Byz--you're right about number one, people believing in it, the other? in light of all the events of the last decade, what makes you think they need income streams?
Perhaps I'll return that blank gaze.
When you isolate a group already inclined to select for intellectual accomplishment, when you deny them access to agricultural lands and confine them to commerce, when you treat a loosely defined ethnic or religious minority who already are prone to see themselves as distinctive in a way which underscores that distinction, and when you do all of these things in pogroms lasting upward of a thousand years, then you, sir, are the engine of all you find so distasteful.
You should read a bit of history yourself.
ciao, I'm a gonna go torture some people some where else
I find it impossible to imagine that happening in the US
Rodney King riots.
Vietnam marches.
No hunger there, eh?
.
The modern American police state will quite effectively prevent any significant institutional reform.
I read a supposition once about the Ginza strip, that the Japanese purposely set aside cultural areas of "non-enforcement" as a relief valve for "non-constructive" behavior.
An attempt at excessive control may backfire, creating greater chaos and disorder. California is already having to release minor criminals from prison.
.
Late night weekender apocalypto tourists time I see.
I have a hard time taking the whole survivalist/militia schtick seriously at the best of times, but especially when I think of this.
Don't get me wrong ... I in no way meant to infer that the regular apocalypto posters were tourists.
Sorry if I offended.
Broward, that idea of a populist uprising has a certain fascination among some here, I know, but don't such phenomena generally gather around a central figure of some kind?
Otherwise, I think you get civil unrest which, destructive as it may be, hasn't got the overthrow of a government as its object - it's an outburst of frustration.
Bubblisimo Gerkinov: oh, my! what a big gun you have!
BH: you're not thinking all the way through, besides-the brief flare ups like the LA riots you cite are a result of oppressive policing, lack of opportunity and yes, real hunger
perhaps you need to spend more time amongst those not so much like yourself
burnside writes:
Otherwise, I think you get civil unrest which, destructive as it may be, hasn't got the overthrow of a government as its object - it's an outburst of frustration.
\t burnside | \t \t \t \t02.14.09 - 7:02 am | #
## and once it coalesces it takes on a life of its own, and yes maybe there is a central figurehead necessary, which will become corrupt and in need of purgation, it's like lather, rinse, repeat
volker the viking writes:
Bubblisimo Gerkinov: oh, my! what a big gun you have!
Sometimes a cigar is just an assault rifle.
that idea of a populist uprising has a certain fascination among some here, I know, but don't such phenomena generally gather around a central figure of some kind?
My personal belief is that some chunk of the existing order take unexpected action. A group of States will secede, part of the military will take action, somebody will nuke D.C, etc.
I don't think anything can happen at an individual level. But I also don't believe the current course can continue.
.
Broward Horne(Excellent) writes:
I read a supposition once about the Ginza strip, that the Japanese purposely set aside cultural areas of "non-enforcement" as a relief valve for "non-constructive" behavior.
Indeed. They have a similar attitutde toward organized crime.
I think it's vastly superior to institutionalize it like they do than do the American "War on (Something That Makes Whites Anxious Which Cops Want To Use As a Procurement And Expansion Driver)".
It can backfire -- look at the dangers of institutional integration on the gvt-private economic side wrt the whole Japanese lost decade. Then again, our system failed in precisely the same way so that argument isn't worth too much any more.
You can't have a moralistic society without outlets for free expression of the natural human urges it attempts to suppress.
It might be topsy-turvy time like Carnivale. It might be semi-formal mobs that enforce social justice like you see in the Yoruban or medieval Christian societies. It might be artificial permissiveness like the Japanese pretense you are not "yourself" when drunk. It might be "free areas" where people can indulge their vices. It might be a tradition of exile or youthful wandering to get the square peg out of the round hole community.
If you don't have some or all of them, you'll shortly have a broken society, as an American society that prefers to think in absolutes and make molehills into mountains will soon teach itself.
When I think of the most nearly positive outcomes - Brits out of India for example, or 'bloodless' revolution in eastern Europe more recently, you might conclude the violent ones are the most misguided.
You replace the Shah with an Ayatollah.
Spanish police arrest six over massive '£420m London Stock Exchange fraud'
"The brains of the operation may be a man named Abraham Hochman, formerly an agent of the Israeli Mossad, and Diego Magn Selva, who was implicated in the Argentine Trust case, Spanish newspaper El Pais claimed."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1130402/Spanish-police-arrest-massive-420m-London-Stock-Exchange-fraud.html
volker the viking(Unrated) writes:
Byz--you're right about number one, people believing in it, the other? in light of all the events of the last decade, what makes you think they need income streams?
Being a student of the game. Trust me, there is money going into that state apparatus somewhere. It might be foreign lending or handouts from other nations rather than taxation, but The Spice Must Flow.
The FDIC is hiring big time.
The budget of the branch that takes care of
"assets" increased from some $75 million last year to $1 billion this year.
Failed Banks Strain Regulators - NY Times
I think the Russian collapse after 1989 is an interesting thing to read about.
Would you consider Russia 1989-1999 to be "Mad Max's" bartertown? I don't. However, there was a general breakdown and I remember staying up all night long when the Russian military began shelling their White House.
It was amazing.
We could mimic the Japanese 1990 collapse but... first of all, the Japanese are more cultural homogeneous, wiilling to endure "mutual pain" for the greater good.
And I'm not so sure that Japan wasn't free-riding on the larger American bubble for the past seventeen years and maybe there's no other bubble for the U.S. to ride on.
.
burnside(Unrated) writes:
When I think of the most nearly positive outcomes - Brits out of India for example, or 'bloodless' revolution in eastern Europe more recently, you might conclude the violent ones are the most misguided.
You replace the Shah with an Ayatollah.
Just IMO, that's cultural bias speaking. You underestimate the evil of the shah and overestimate the evil of the modern Iranian state.
The Iranians did a great job with their revolution. Probably the model for functional theocracies going forward. No like I want to live there, I'm not a Muslim or even a monotheist, but the way they developed the the GC / ulama state-within-a-state was very well-constructed from a technical perspective.
The only reason you haven't seen more from it was the fact that the previous ruler of the state was a darling of the global hegemon. I would not blame their plight on an inefficient state, more on an inefficient state system.
Broward, you might be interested in this.
Broward Horne(Excellent) writes:
And I'm not so sure that Japan wasn't free-riding on the larger American bubble for the past seventeen years and maybe there's no other bubble for the U.S. to ride on.
My perception is that the Japanese benefited strongly from their position as a distinctly secondary actor not directly tied to the post-Imperial hegemony of the West, and their situation as net savers and a leading global exporter.
The US has many enemies is has made for itself, many obligations it has made for itself, many debts it has made for itself and it is a net debtor and importer. Our attempt to ease on down the road to our own Lost Decade will prove much more eventful than Japan's.
Modern Japan was by all accounts the Mayberry RFD of states at the time. By comparison, the US is like New York City on five hits of acid. The same strategy will produce radically different results here, again, IMO.
Byz,
I know it's easy to read admiration for the peacock throne into my statement but, having many friends and acquaintances at that time from the region generally, and from Iran in particular, I can tell you I make no judgment regarding the superiority of either regime.
Far more inclined to accept the, as it turned out, varied opinions of Iranians on the subject.
Being a student of the game. Trust me, there is money going into that state apparatus somewhere. It might be foreign lending or handouts from other nations rather than taxation, but The Spice Must Flow.
| \t02.14.09 - 7:16 am | #
\t Comrade Byzantine_Ruins | \t \t \tHomepage
## c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham, a part of the ponzi, and speaking of Spice, I always had a thing for the one with the pig tails, whew! somebody throw some water on me!
A lot of middle class, educated Iranians through their lot in with the revolution only to get burned by the resulting theocracy.
Uh ... that's 'threw' their lot in ...
burnside(Unrated) writes:
Far more inclined to accept the, as it turned out, varied opinions of Iranians on the subject.
Yeah, that's cool. I'm not exactly admiring of Iran in the great scale of places I appreciate for their holistic quality of life.
But they do have a theocracy that hasn't starved everyone to death despite the best efforts of America, and that's pretty impressive for a theocracy, they generally starve everyone straight away.
It's one of the modern high water marks for state-church union, which is sorta damning with faint praise, but on the whole it seems to be better for its people than the shah's strongman state backed up by Uncle Sam's torturers, money, guns.
you might be interested in this.
I've seen similar comparisons. I'm hoping that they're too pessimistic.
A system like "The United States" is complex and unpredictable.
I think it's predictable that a collapse is likely. However, the outcome is not.
I think that some coalition of States could secede to break away from Federal debt obligations. If that happens, then the race will be on for further secessions to get clear of an exploding debt/imploding revenue base.
Russia had eighty years to degenerate. I think America culture has vestiges of previous "good long-term behavior" that could re-assert itself quicker than Russia has.
.
Byz writes:
The only reason you haven't seen more from it was the fact that the previous ruler of the state was a darling of the global hegemon. I would not blame their plight on an inefficient state, more on an inefficient state system.
| \t02.14.09 - 7:23 am | #
\t Comrade Byzantine_Ruins | \t \t \tHomepage
## you cite a perfect example of why we are where we are in our foreign relations (why is it always foreign relations and domestic affairs?). They rose up because they were oppressed by the system. The system was a propped up Peacock throne, propped up by Britain and by extension the US. When the new authority (God almaighty) became in charge, their orders were unassailable by any current standard and as it played out over the decades since, one sitter by the right hand of God was replaced by another and another until today there is no room for divergence, deviation or any other difference with the holy written word which was delivered from God by god. Any other power or influence or individual is an infidel, corrupt and of the devil. So, until some power highr than man comes along, man will control events. If you hold me down long enough, you will get the blow back. If not from me then from my children or their children. Of course, this is too complex for some here to fathom, what with having to make the rent next week.
volker the viking(Unrated) writes:
c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham
And you'll note it appears to be becoming increasingly unstable and markedly less legitimate.
It would be hard to overstate the severe paranoia of Iranians who were here in the US at the time - many of them budding civil engineers.
But the aftermath might 'read' to us better if we imagined ourselves waking to an Evangelical theocracy here some morning.
Though I expect we wouldn't starve. ;0)
Re what Volker said: I'll say it simpler for all to follow along: If you fuck with my shit, I'll fuck up YOUR shit.
That's pretty much human development and herstory.
Forget it at your peril.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins(Unrated) writes:
\tvolker the viking(Unrated) writes:
c'mon, person! it's being created from out of the air, cyber digits plugged in here and there, the foreign lending is a sham
And you'll note it appears to be becoming increasingly unstable and markedly less legitimate.
$$ Not it, but our understanding and appreciation and trust in it.
I think America culture has vestiges of previous "good long-term behavior" that could re-assert itself quicker than Russia has.
.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.14.09 - 7:38 am | #
I agree. That's generally what Will Hutton says about all pluralistic democracies.
That's generally what Will Hutton says about all pluralistic democracies.
Interesting thread. OT, I worked for an Indian company for the past year and I have a new appreciation for Gandhi. I like Jimmy Rogers, he's always blunt and honest but I disagree with his China fascination.
From what I've seen, the Indians seem much more likely to occupy our vacant hegemon position than China. What I see in India is a synthesis of many strengths of British (western) culture combined with the ethics of Gandhi. They're immature and young but I think compare favorable to the U.S.
The Chinese strike me as too ideological and rigid. I suspect that they are disliked by many of their trading partners.
Anyway, I really should sleep.
Thanks for the interesting links. the Soviet / US comparison is more detailed than what I've read before.
.
Incidentally, there is an article treating the recent history of the Iranian economy in the 2/2/09 New Yorker. Only an abstract online now:
Economist Mohammad Tabibian attempts to reform Iran : The New Yorker
That's quite an offer, something like that could be part of the stimulus package
I love to rent it and stay with my family...if possible
Ohh mama, You Americans gonna FALL DOWN! Welcome to thlöö Dante One!
DEPT CHARGES! Bada....BUM!½
OT: Judges Plead Guilty in Scheme to Jail Youths for Profit
Judges Plead Guilty in Scheme to Jail Youths for Profit - NY Times
Can I call bottom on morality ?
YEAH!
I LUV YOU YANKS! HERE AT THE BOTTOM!
GIMME MORE YOU YANKY SHITS! YOUR CORRUPTED BARRELS OF CORRUPTION?
I am Your U-96 Captain so DO IT whatever you CAN !
An extremely well written article :
DollarDaze Economic Commentary Blog - Gold, Oil, Stocks, Investments, Currencies, and the Federal Reserve: Monetary Policy and the U.S. Dollar by Mike Hewitt
Fabrice writes:
OT: Judges Plead Guilty in Scheme to Jail Youths for Profit
Un-f***ing-believable.
"How hungry were the 911 terrorists?
They weren't hungry, just greedy. Bone up.
ae911truth.org
600 Architects and Engineers demanding a new investigation.
Remember I mentioned about a week ago I thought my bank might be next on the list...Just saw in the paper this morning they were issued a cease and desist..
Federal regulators sanction Peoples First (see DOCUMENTS) - UPDATE - The News Herald
Blonderengel(Excellent) writes:
$$ Not it, but our understanding and appreciation and trust in it.
That is "it".
The government exists in your mind -- that is what the "Mandate of Heaven" is all about (in Western polisci lingo, this is "the implicit consent of the governed"). The apparatus is not the state. When it is, that's called warlordism, and it behaves very differently than a "normal" formal state.
They weren't hungry, just greedy. Bone up.
ae911truth.org
That post took a lot longer than expected.
?
Interesting thread. OT, I worked for an Indian company for the past year and I have a new appreciation for Gandhi. I like Jimmy Rogers, he's always blunt and honest but I disagree with his China fascination.
From what I've seen, the Indians seem much more likely to occupy our vacant hegemon position than China. What I see in India is a synthesis of many strengths of British (western) culture combined with the ethics of Gandhi. They're immature and young but I think compare favorable to the U.S.
You were lucky, that was probably the exception and not the norm.
The issues with these two cultures are not that they are young and budding but that they have bad role models.
I realise the 'I can always move to Dubai' meme is mostly dead, but in case there's was any doubt ...
Arnold Schwarzenegger summarizes Austrian economics in a nutshell:
YouTube - Conan the Barbarian - What is best in life?
Bubblisimo Gerkinov(Unrated) writes:
Un-f***ing-believable.
It happens every day around you. It's called 'mandatory counseling' for drunk driving or petty drug possession. It's called 'house arrest'. It's called 'private prisons' and 'makig inmates work for their keep'.
All the private-side companies involved in the judicial system are run by people who are part of an iron triangle with the police/judicial apparatus. All the people who get inmate labor are cronies of the state.
The most inoffensive form is that the roads need work so they round up the local "undesirables" (as determined by a roving deputy with a quota) and draft them for corvee labor. The rest are just outright corruption.
It makes sense I guess ... an inevitable outcome of a privatised prison system.
Just like 1980.... only worse
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told a news conference that the plan was "not intended to be measured by one day's market score-keeping, but instead to ensure that the 10,000 Americans who each day have their homes foreclosed on, and the millions more trying to get by, are protected."
"I would wait until Wednesday to see what the president offers and be careful that we don't set an unreasonable series of expectations based on leaks from God only knows where," Gibbs said.
W.House cautions realism over Obama housing plan
| Reuters
God did it.
In a Christian nation, when disaster strikes, do I fix the problem, or do I use the event as an opportunity to point out how immoral other people are? Do I get down to business, or do I just pray about it? Do I ask, "how can this be!?" or, do I sigh and turn my dreamy gaze towards the Second Coming that will fix everything?
Well, I suppose the answer depends on which way the wind is blowing, what butters my bread the best, and what makes me come out looking less contemptible than my neighbor.
Since my church will be hurt if the banks are dissolved, I suppose the preacher will be preaching and I'll be backing these bankers to the bitter end...
--Charlie "The Tooth" Christia
Bubblisimo Gerkinov(Unrated) writes:
It makes sense I guess ... an inevitable outcome of a privatised prison system.
It's more than privatization. It has to do with the growth of the law enforcement segment of the population until it is a real meaningful vested interest that can keep producing crimes and punishments for itself so that there can be expanding budgets and expanding opportunities for promotion.
It has to do with the use of law enforcement policies as a proxy for social anxiety. Now you can't lynch niggers as a mob when you get riled up, you have to have the cops do it for you, which they gladly take care of.
And it's not just blacks and beaners, stressed populations with no equipment to deal with the stress constantly lash out. It'll be druggos or beaners or muslims or political dissidents or long haired freaks or whatever comes to hand. In our case, we're both really fucked and really ignorant, so we have all of the above labeled as enemies of society.
I think privatization isn't really the cause so much as another symptom that we have a failure to align the means at hand and our social concept with reality, and that we'd rather have the illusion than the reality.
It's just the civil order equivalent of the Reagan-and-on destruction of the financial system; an exercise in can-kicking that can only be seen in complex societies too ensnared in their own self-generated illusions to change fundamental policies even when they're dying. It doesn't matter if it's ludicrous on the face and defies all reason, it just matters that the stage set of prosperity can go unquestioned for another day.
Not sure if people saw this interview on PBS last night . . .
Bill Moyers Journal . Simon Johnson | PBS
This guy (former IMF Chief Economist) tells some truth.
Jas would like this.
When my extended family got together over Christmas, I blamed this crisis on "democrats giving poor people loans." Man! Who could have imagined that poor people could have so much power to bring down the whole system!..it's that evil,..aborting babies and pornogrifying, no doubt.
Helping poor people hurts poor people, I told my nephew. What they need is our Christian love. Then they will learn to stand on their own two feet. Besides, God will take care of them if they are good..if they are evil, then they deserve to die.
Otherwise, no one stole Christmas from us! We had a fun time celebrating the birth of our Lord.
--Charlie "The Tooth" Christia
Delayed response to Pissed Off at 12:56:
Usually bonds are paid sequentially, with the riskiest ones paid last. Sometimes deals contain stipulations that, if certain trigger conditions fail (e.g. level of delinquencies), the AAA bonds start getting paid pro-rata instead of sequentially. But it's not the case for all RMBS deals, so you have to go to the offering documents to see what you've got.
OT: Judges Plead Guilty in Scheme to Jail Youths for Profit
- NY Times? em
Can I call bottom on morality ?
Fabrice | 02.14.09 - 8:13 am | #
That was even more disturbing than facing the potential of mad max.
"Rodney King riots.
Vietnam marches."
Riots are not uprisings. Neither are marches. Neither example was a threat to the structure of the state or even - except locally - to civil order.
Detroit has been in a depression for the last 10 years.
Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel is the son of a Zionist terrorist (Lehi Group) and former officer of the Israeli Army.
In the following video Emanuel puts "terrorists" and the NRA at a same moral level and claims that anyone on the no fly list does not belong in the "American family."
YouTube - Rahm Emanuel Speaks at the Brady Center's Stand Up For a Safe America (DC)
Anyone on the no-fly lists should be deprived of citizen rights.
Unlikely Terrorists On No Fly List
Steve Kroft Reports List Includes President Of Bolivia, Dead 9/11 Hijackers
Unlikely Terrorists On No Fly List - 60 Minutes - CBS News
Well said, Trotsky.
-
The Fundamentals of Free Rent are strong!
Maya(Unrated) writes:
In the following video Emanuel puts "terrorists" and the NRA at a same moral level and claims that anyone on the no fly list does not belong in the "American family."
Were you previously under the illusion this was a fair and just government?
SUCKER. Both sides eagerly collude to serve the same masters, and it isn't a Zionist conspiracy. It's banker robbers and the self-serving desire of Western security forces to increase their numbers and clout by manufacturing threats.
way ot. Discourse on the intertoobs http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/13/internet-blogging-chatrooms
Gavin S,
Bill Moyers Journal: Interview with Simon Johnson
Great video!
OT: I highly recommend this Bill Moyer interview with Simon Johnson, former chief economist of the IMF.
Bill Moyers Journal: Interview with Simon Johnson
sample:
BILL MOYERS: Oligarchy is an un-American term, as you know. It means a government by a small number of people. We don't like to think of ourselves that way.
SIMON JOHNSON: It's a way of governing. As you said. It comes from, you know, a system they tried out in Greece and Athens from time to time. And it was actually an antithesis to democracy in that context.
But, exactly what you said, it's a small group with a lot of power. A lot of wealth. They don't necessarily - they're not necessarily always the names, the household names that spring to mind, in this kind of context. But they are the people who could pull the strings. Who have the influence. Who call the shots.
"improve the quality of online debate" = "manipulate it until the results are more to my liking".
Where is the outrage and the prosecutions. The hush money insurance bought with contributions seems to be working like a charm.
How do you improve the quality of debate on a chatroom..this question assumes that people are and like to be rational, logical and linear.
Vandalism, especially during prime time, can be blocked. "Improving" the debate kills the debate, or ends the communication because people just walk away, is my take on the article.
Thank you.
Re "Judges plead guilty" - this has been going on at systemic level for ten years. The only new element is that judges are up on charges for it.
C
The rich will stay rich, the middle class will work to make sure the rich stays rich and the poor is there to scare the middle class.
Where is the outrage and the prosecutions. The hush money insurance bought with contributions seems to be working like a charm.
bearly | 02.14.09 - 10:12 am | #
Why are you surprised? It wasn't like there was 50% turnover in Congress.
counterpointer writes:
Re "Judges plead guilty" - this has been going on at systemic level for ten years. The only new element is that judges are up on charges for it.
C
\t Counterpointer | \t \t \t \t02.14.09 - 10:16 am | #
## We measure progress in small steps.
The rich pay think tanks, academics, preachers, advertisers and marketeer to train the poor and the middle-class to pretend that they themselves are upper class and that they need to defend upper class values.
The rich use the strategy of drawing potential enemies into the good graces of God, but without the money and huge house.
"Improving" the debate kills the debate,
quite possibly but what about stereotypical refrains?
brushes9 writes:
The rich use the strategy of drawing potential enemies into the good graces of God, but without the money and huge house.
| \t02.14.09 - 10:21 am | #
\t brushes9 | \t \t \tHomepage
## Absent hope for a better tomorrow humans devolve to less than desirable traits, trends and actions.
Go out in the world, your world, and talk with some people you don't know. Strike up conversations in passing, random acts of communication in the course of your daily life. Do this with at least 3 to 10 folk. Then report back to this forum. I would suggest that a surprising result will be the outcome.
Absent hope for a better tomorrow humans devolve to less than desirable traits, trends and actions.
volker the viking | 02.14.09 - 10:23 am | #
but that is why I am here, to find a path back out of the pit
but that is why I am here, to find a path back out of the pit
mule's derriere | 02.14.09 - 10:26 am | #
You have arrived here misguided by happenstance or folly for here we tell you there IS a pt and yes it is Deep.
misguided by happenstance or folly
I prefer folly.
Can somebody tell me what's up with FFDIC's daughter?
I gather she is in the hospital?
Whatever it is, I wish them the best.
The short-cut and most widely accepted method for bringing up children is to turn them into anxious, parent-pleasers. It is not a big step for the rich to then turn them into anxious, rich-people pleasers.
Hence, there will be no revolution. There will be random violence, but that is all.
Our reality, or matrix, is not political, religious or economic. It has been designed, from the bottom up, after careful study of the human mind, to benefit the oligarchs.
What about the children of the rich? They are often even more messed up than the children of the poor.
And somebody asked about the dawg. He went and said he wasn't coming back. For what seemed to me to be a trivial reason.
I miss him.
Seems to me that if people think they're doomed, they're doomed.
Can somebody tell me what's up with FFDIC's daughter?
ll,
I don't have many details, but I think the answer to your question is that she has been in ICU following complications from a C-section. Here is an update from FFDIC from last night:
Just got home from ICU. Angela off ventilator but blood pressure spiked to stroke levels. She was crying earlier today as they eased her off sedation so that was hard. They cannot tell if she is in pain, worried about her condition, pissed, or what. Still critical but stable as I left.
FFDIC | 02.13.09 - 8:32 pm
Baby ok?
I guess you have not heard the statement:"shirtsleeve to shirtsleeve in three generations."
Yes I know, it doesn't apply to everyone, however I have another statement:
"first generation steals, the second generation lives on the interest and the third generation lives on the principal"
Its interesting in that what drove the first generation to accumulate the wealth seems to peter out in the succeeding generations...
Baby ok?
I don't know -- I certainly hope so. I missed the first postings from FFDIC about what went wrong so I don't think I have the whole story.