You know, I have to say: amen! This is precisely what we need...screw the supermarket model. That was a recipe for inefficiency supported by monopolistic power.
Gimme back the small, community based banking. If there are economies of scale in processing/servicing, etc., outsource those paper-pushing operational functions.
Rusty Cloutier has hit the nail on the head: the last thing we need is to concentrate power into a few banks.
Not only does that lead to a potential "too big to fail" syndrome, it also stifles competition, and increases the damage done when a bank does behave badly.
We need a little economic conservationism: cull the herd and take out the big banks so that the rest can thrive.
the impossible is eliminated, and all that is left is pre-privatization, with large scale support from the business sector, and even a chunk of the banking sector.
"The banking lobby has become too powerful, in large part because big banks have balance sheets that are too big relative to the size of the economy. If a bank has total assets of over 10% of GDP, it is obviously too big to fail. Of course, the smart people who run these banks know this and act - politically and economically - accordingly.
We need a strong system of financial intermediation, and this must feature people willing to take risks with their own capital. In that context, there may be efficiency arguments in favor of relatively large deposit-taking/lending banks (although Im far from convinced), but it is the political economy considerations that are overwhelming. When all is said and done, if we still have large banks with great political power, we will eventually find ourselves in even bigger trouble."
"And small banks can't raise capital because investors are concerned that their competitors (the large banks) will be continuously bailed out by the government."
Or fear that the big banks get bailed, and the FDIC keeps chewing and spewing the small ones to the big ones...
Honestly, I think we need a few years of NO banks before we're ready to jump onto that ship again. Not to mention that this is the worst-possible time for startup banks.
Another point that's seldom made these days (except on CR, of course): Big banks have benefited greatly over small banks during the last 15 years due to deregulation taking away their retail business. (That's why they're so into CRE.) We need to see a small bank lobby form up quickly and attack these bailouts; one crucial piece of the preprivatization plan will be the breakup of the money center banks and the dolling out of their retail market share to the regionals.
Local banks have taken it on the chin for too long!
This is because when times get really bad, as they did when the Soviet Union collapsed, lots of people just completely lose it. Men, especially. Successful, middle-aged men, breadwinners, bastions of society, turn out to be especially vulnerable. And when they just completely lose it, they become very tedious company. My hope is that some amount of preparation, psychological and otherwise, can make them a lot less fragile, and a bit more useful, and generally less of a burden.
...
so, without a bit of mental preparation, the men are all liable to end up
very lonely and very drunk.
Also, from a systems theory perspective, loosely coupled, redundant systems are far more resilient than tightly-coupled, non-redundant systems. Redundancy is more expensive up front and on an ongoing basis, but the risk of systemic failure is greatly reduced.
"During the Visigoths final siege of Rome...the very end...The colloseum attendees demanded the right to bid on the slain corpses of gladiators for food."
And here I thought that the gladiatorial shows in the Colosseum ended 6 years before the Visigoths sacked Rome.
We don't need banks, we need places for groups of people to live, REAL work for them do, food for them to eat and ways to properly educate the next generation.
and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital? anon | 02.16.09 - 2:43 pm | #
Nope. Part of the breakup must be a new regulatory framework that includes systemic risk accounting. Nothing wrong with foreign banks, so long as the open their books and follow the rules.
REZEKNE, Latvia (AP) For decades, the Rebir factory was the pride of the industrial town of Rezekne in eastern Latvia, with demand for its power drills and chain saws surviving the collapse of communism as it won over capitalist customers.
\tBut the factorys owners closed up shop late last year, a victim of high labor costs during the countrys now-collapsed boom. Some 1,000 people in the town of 36,000 lost their jobs, sending local unemployment to nearly 15 percent, and with the recession deepening hopes for new work are fading.
\tThe worst is yet to come, said Diana Zirnina, a city administration official. We can feel that people are angry.
\tRezeknes boom-to-bust woes are mirrored across Latvia and its Baltic Sea neighbors, Estonia and Lithuania.
\tNot long ago, the three countries were nicknamed Baltic Tigers for their rapid growth and business friendly policies, and held up as models for other countries that regained control of their destinies after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.
\tNow their economies are contracting sharply, pounded by the global financial crisis just as they were struggling to deal with a decline that set in after their economies overheated due to loose credit and government spending.
\tCHICAGO With so many personal finance decisions turning into disasters, a chorus of voices is singing the praises of financial-literacy education.
\tMake every American a financial whiz, the thinking goes, and credit bubbles never will bedevil us again.
\tTrouble is, growing evidence suggests that financial-literacy courses dont work. Worse, they may actually hurt, in part by making their graduates overconfident about limited skills.
\tFew want to hear that message, according to Lauren Willis, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles whose recent paper, Against Financial Literacy Education, shook up all sorts of vested interests.
\tI get hate mail, Willis said. People believe in financial-literacy education. Its like a religion. Its like apple pie. Theyre not interested in knowing the truth.
\tPlenty of people make a living off these courses, and lawmakers love them, since they give the impression that something is being done about the intractable problem of financial ignorance.
\tUtah, Missouri and Tennessee require students to take a semester-long personal-finance class before graduating from high school. Seventeen other states incorporate financial education into other subjects by decree, of course.
\tThe Indiana Senate this month approved a bill that would require personal financial responsibility to be taught from kindergarten through high school. Its sponsor described it as an appropriate response to difficult times. Other states are mulling expanded mandates.
\tThese measures dont affect only youth. Adults face similar obligatory instruction when they seek bankruptcy protection or, in some cases, apply for loans.
\tAcademics have known for years about the scant evidence in support of the programs, but few are willing to go as far as Willis in bluntly denouncing them as a counterproductive racket.
\tShe cites examples, such as the high school students who took a semester-long personal-finance course and tested worse than those who didnt. Or the graduates of retirement-planning classes who thought their literacy had increased, when their financial test scores had not.
\tNow comes a study from Harvard Business School raising more doubts. Using rigorous methodology, it concluded that programs in widespread use during the past two decades were no use at all.
\tThey werent effective in changing peoples financial decisions, said Shawn Cole, one of two professors behind the report, titled If You Are So Smart, Why Arent You Rich?
\tWe find no effect, he said. My gut feeling is that teaching math or statistics would be more useful.
\tStill, Cole believes it may be possible to design an effective program. Thats a common theme among those who favor financial education: Just because no one has proven these courses work is no reason to give up searching for the right formula.
\tWillis has other ideas. She wants to forget about making Americans capable of handling their credit and investment needs most will never get there, especially given the fast-moving, complicated nature of financial services.
\tShe favors pro-consumer regulation and one-on-one counseling with unbiased advisers. Sure, those could be tough to come by. But no one said saving Americans from themselves would be easy.
Exactly, I have been talking to others about starting a new local well capitalized bank. Not only is everyone scared to put money into this venture with all these bailouts, the FDIC is not adding any more new banks right now.
âNobody is going to put fresh capital into the banking business when your major competitor is going to be continuously bailed out by the United States government with more and more money."
Why limit this to banking?
âNobody is going to put fresh capital into the [_____] business when your major competitor is going to be continuously bailed out by the United States government with more and more money."
US governance at every level needs to adopt their own version of the Hippocratic oath: "In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves."
The realist in me hopes that the EU collapses spectacularly with massive social unrest. I hope we watch it in real time here in the US and then take the necessary steps to ensure we don't disintegrate in the same manner. The uber realist in me says if they go then so shall we.
Thank you Atlantic and Pacific. Thank you Canada. Mexico, well we are watching you very very carefully.
Ministry of Truth writes:
Exactly, I have been talking to others about starting a new local well capitalized bank
Send a note to the FDIC. They must hard pressed to find buyers for bad banks. And, once the bad stuff is off loaded onto the FDIC, a troubled bank might just have a chance.
That's Ballgame Comrades writes:
the three countries were nicknamed Baltic Tigers for their rapid growth and business friendly policies
The three Baltic republics focused their economic policies on moving from manufacturing-based economy to service-based economy, as manufacturing was viewed as something that must be done in Asia, and not by fast-growing European states (I heard this thought many times from people from those countries).
Not that the industrial base is helping Russia and Ukraine all that much...
He mumbled something about the Titanic and "nothing left to discuss", a few bubbles floated up and then... silence. Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:49 pm | #
Let's be fair. Sebastian capitulated several months ago.
Cut Bait writes:
The realist in me hopes that the EU collapses spectacularly with massive social unrest. I hope we watch it in real time here in the US and then take the necessary steps to ensure we don't disintegrate in the same manner
Don't worry , no sociial unrest in the US. We're too obese as a nation. Half would have a stroke getting to the march
What about animals? I see no clause about animals. Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:54 pm | #
Yea, though they seem but lowly beasts all thy ponies shall be exalted above all other creatures. For the pony, the pony is the source of all skittles.
Compared to other countries, the U.S. has much less concentration in its banking system (think RBS, BNP Paribas, UBS.) The problem is that the biggest bank have a different regulator that has not been as concerned about the banks risk management. The problem is the idea that because a bank is big, the assets are diversified, the risks of the assets cancel each other out, so the banks need to hold less capital then smaller banks.
Break up C into 10-15 regional banks, same with BAC.... crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:39 pm | #
Who gets stuck with the bad assets? Would it not be more reasonable to let them go BK and let the existing regional banks bid on BAC and C's good assets? Why should any of well behaved regional banks, have to compete with gov subsidised and revitalized superbanks. Why can't we let these unsustainalbe super-zombies die?
"Folks, I am a third generation commercial farmer. This survivalist talk is fantasy bunk. To raise food in meaningful quantities takes mechanization, which requires a thriving supply line for parts and maintenance. It also requires a locally thriving marketing and processing industry.
If anyone thinks they can just garden by hand and feed yourself, I have got news for you . Cant be done. An adequate diet requires sufficient quantities of high-protein foods, oils, and bulk carbohydrates. Just growing a few vegetables will not cut it.
You guys need to get real. The basic food growing, process and distributions system will be just fine. Finance is just a bubble floating on top of the real economy."
Good comment from the lifeboat article comment section. He might be missing the need for a financial payment system to pay for those products and supply lines but I like the optimism.
Yea though I walk through the valley of ponies I shall reap no skittles for the banksters preceded me. Their CDS and cross-collateralization shall follow me and my children all the days of our lives.
That doesn't mean we won't see regional food shortages. Hell, we were just commenting this past weekend that several local big-name grocery chains are having trouble keeping certain foods on the shelves. They're even putting out notes about supply disruptions.
the bank break-up will not happen. at least not until after receivership.
daily bail | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:57 pm | #
Here's the part of that story that I find most significant - Sen Shelby (R) now says compensation caps are necessary, just like Lindsey Graham now says nationalization should be a live option. I think the Repubs have just been suckered into a bipartisan set of actions.
From the NYT article:
Mr. Gibbs may not like it, but it is going to be enforced, Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts and chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said on CBS. This is not an option. This is not, frankly, the Bush administration, where theyre going to issue a signing statement and refuse to enforce it.
Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the ranking Republican on the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, said the compensation provisions were necessary to protect taxpayer money.
I guess it comes down to sovereignty. Does the country have sovereign rights over the big banks or do the big banks have sovereign rights over the government and taxpayers? Ultimately it should be the taxpayers and the government calling the shots. It seems it has been the big banks too big to fail that have been calling the shots and scaring the beegeebiz out of everyone to get more taxpayer money. Some day the taxpayer will be tapped out. Why should banks be in charge when they do not know what their assets are worth, no one outside the banks knows exactly what assets the banks have, and the banks relied on some fairy tale calculations of risk that are based on false assumptions of certainty of the calculations of risk. These same banks bought all the CDSs, CDOs, and MBSs either not knowing the worth of what they were buying or worse knowing what they were buying was worth less than they were paying. Why should they be in charge of operating a lemonade stand?
The whole charade is beyond belief and drawfs any system of fraud in the history of the USA.
The 250% GDP was in 1932-33, because GDP had already dropped so much. The ratio in 1929 was 165%. So our reaching 350% when GDP was quite high is totally un precendented.
This is coming. We are just not there yet. The Administration is catching on fast though. First we'll nationalize, then we'll break 'em into smaller chunks. Big regionals.
and that is one frightening looking chart of historical debt to GDP ratio from bobn
See here.
The 250% GDP was in 1932-33, because GDP had already dropped so much. The ratio in 1929 was 165%. So our reaching 350% when GDP was quite high is totally un precendented.
bobn | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:12 pm | #
Based on the statement I posted in the prior thread by Merkel there will be no more bankruptcy for big banks for a while.
Call it the 9-11/Katrina/Lehman effect, but no politician wants to be on watch, and accused on not acting, if, or when, the big one happens, so they'll continue shoveling money into the bottomless pit.
Every time this little bit of dishonest, fraudulent dealing occurs in some tiny little corner of the financial system, a small amount of trust is destroyed and ripples out far beyond that bank and the customer it is stealing from, magnified beyond recognition as it touches huge numbers of other people. A good example of the cumulative effect of this is the sub-prime mortgage. This is a farce. An artificial construction by banks designed to milk outrageous amounts of money from people unable to defend themselves from what amounts to blatant fraud in a form the law describes as conversion. The banks deliberately set out to create this type of mortgage because it is more profitable than the old fashioned type based on honest trust and fair dealing which no longer provided enough profits to fuel the banks rapacious greed. This is how it is done.
it all sets up the ability to nationalize the banks and, what's more, chips away at remaining repub opposition to imposing more stringent regulation over the financial sector down the road when we prepare to shift from pre-privatization to privatizatio
Actually that was pointed out someone else - maybe even here, some time ago. my memory really sucks. At first glance, I had missed this little detail. It's another example of how thoroughly screwed we are.
the fed began as a private consortium of exactly that, and 100 years later, still is...
you folks do realize that, right? that's the 'federal reserve' mentioned on the top of every dollar? skews the nature of the game a bit, dontcha think?
Another Payment Card Processor Hacked? Anyone got any info on this?
There had been indications in early Heartland reports that the FBI was pursuing suspects who may be part of a larger criminal conspiracy targeting multiple companies, but there are no reports yet as to whether this latest breach is part of that investigation, or whether the revelations at Heartland led to this breach being uncovered.
Call it the 9-11/Katrina/Lehman effect, but no politician wants to be on watch, and accused on not acting, if, or when, the big one happens, so they'll continue shoveling money into the bottomless pit. Basel Too | 02.16.09 - 3:19 pm | #
This is a huge statement because it seems to force countries who signed the agreement to participate in cross border rescues. I don't understand why this hasn't made the big news headlines yet... It blew me away when I read it last night.
There are a lot of research scientists and some people that are not research scientists who could have told anyone that the risk models for derivatives were flawed and did not provide a reliable prediction of risk. But the models were based on statistical theory and knowledge of statistical theory even among research scientists is often not strong or is ignored. Some of this has to do with a propensity for there to be certainty in the product produced by scientists or salesmen to get things like research money or to make sales. But give the uncertainty a patina of mathematical calculation, certainty and precision, and there can be short term success. Unfortunately when the whole financial system depends on it, the errors can muliply and enlarge. That is what we have now.
The Administration is catching on fast though. dashingdwl | 02.16.09 - 3:15 pm | #
Not political observation follows. Rhetorical question; is there a difference between catching on and willingness to do what is necessary? Of course. Look at the change to date on every aspect of the Executive branch. Smart staff of any party are still ruled by the maxim; "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Is this anything more than a transparent land grab by the regional banking fiefdoms?
Bah, screw this all, BK the banks that are insolvent. Let the solvent institutions buy up the usable bit and stick the stockholders and bondholders with the crap.
The sooner we reboot this crap the sooner we can start building trust in banking again.
Meredith Whitney, in her video "On Financials," about a month ago, in which she said that this was a "Joe Kennedy" investment era, a video that is no longer on the web; she said that new, small banks would be the HOT thing going forward...I wish, instead that she had said that "brushes9" would be the HOT thing going forward..but it is good to see that the Obama, the NYT and CR are catching up with the HOT Meredith, even if she is getting censored.
Machine shops are going to need their own bailout soon if things don't turn around. Have worked for a job shop for 30 yrs and I haven't seen anything like this. Shops we've given a little work to in the past who have never contacted us are now calling looking for work. There's a decent amount of quoting going on, but no one seems to want to pull the trigger and release an actual order. There won't be too many shops left if this keeps up.
The debt chart everyone is referencing at 350% of GDP double counts a great deal of debt today. CDO, CLOs, CMBSs, MBS, and other leveraged debt vehicles are double counted sometimes. Not saying that debt hasnt exploded, just saying that there that dont net out some of that financial debt when they should.
mark Zandi (of moody's) has an excellent analysis of the impact of various proposed stimulus packages upon gdp, employment etc
excellent report
with dollar amounts (see page 12-14) attached to proposals including, tax cut impact, extended food stamps, alternative min tax, roads and bridges, etc
I never thought or imagined that the Obama administration would be so cowardly and scaredy-cat that it would not move ahead decisively on what was necessary. The guy is confused, timid and inexperienced and I begin to think Hillary, with all her faults, would have been better. Nationalize the damn banks NOW.
The Bank of Israel said on Monday it will follow the lead of other central banks and buy government bonds to increase liquidity in the financial system as another measure with short-term borrowing costs so low.
below zero percent.
"The purpose of this would be as another monetary tool and not a means to create a system to which the government would finance the (budget) deficit through the printing of money," said Gil Bufman, chief economist at Bank Leumi.
"He (Fischer) would like to print money but just enough of it for monetary purposes and not as a source to fund the deficit," he said. "This is something being done all over the world and is just the Bank of Israel following the footsteps of the Fed and other central banks."
anon writes:
"and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital? We'll build a wall then?"
So let them. I thought we were all desperate for credit. We will not soon get back to a situation where churning of unrepayable debt is the world's most profitable industry.
Cut Bait writes: "Folks, I am a third generation commercial farmer. This survivalist talk is fantasy bunk. To raise food in meaningful quantities takes mechanization, which requires a thriving supply line for parts and maintenance. It also requires a locally thriving marketing and processing industry.
Monocropper dependent on Green Revolution techniques for sure.
"Gov. Patterson's proposed Internet tax specifically targets downloads or pornography"
First, this plan was announced a month ago. But more importantly the vast majority of downloads and pron is not paid for. Patterson will be skimming from a dry lake.
Wars were what took Germany and the US out of the 1930s Depression. Maybe, to get the GOP to go along, Obama needs to become a warmonger. Here's a nifty idea: invade and conquer all the oil states in the Gulf, seize their resources and use them to pay for the economic bailout of the USA. Hey, they are Arabs, so who cares about them? Israel would be delighted. And likewise Limbaugh and the other right wing warmongering extremists. Cheney would be up and dancing in the aisles.
Hillary is busy appeasing Japan, no doubt driving their finance minister to drink.. i mean to take medicine and appear drunk. Anonymous | 02.16.09 - 3:34 pm | #
We are one of the largest job shops in our area. We have approx 80 different customers in a given year, from various industries, including auto (we're 2nd tier) The auto part is DEAD. Our customer now has about 18 months supply of most items...18 MONTHS! We're lucky we're somewhat diversified...others aren't so lucky and they'll be wiped out. It's all about survival now.
thanks for that post. i wonder if those multipliers will be different this time around. maybe that all get smaller uniformly maybe some change more quickly than others.
Rusty doesn't mention that his bank is a recipient of taxpayer money.
He also doesn't discuss his own banks diversity, or lack thereof.
He is just tired of competing against the Capital One's of the world....(high deposit rates to fund high interest CC loans).
For those of you who have at least glimpsed a small portion of the universal land grab which is happening across the entire spectrum....take another step back for a wider view.
Does the country have sovereign rights over the big banks or do the big banks have sovereign rights over the government and taxpayers? lawn grass | 02.16.09 - 3:10 pm | #
The problem has been that too many people were afraid even to ask the question.
The solution appears to be that ideas once thought unimaginable are now becoming mainstream in a matter of weeks.
0'00": We've had G7 meetings from last night, er, actually from today though, err, something like joint declaration has been issued.
0'18" Reporter: I'd like to ask about future manetary polical measures to President (of BOJ) SHIRAKAWA (next to nakagawa).
0'25" Nakagawa: W..What? Repeat it.
0'55":Reporter: In the discussion against the protectionism, what was you statement?
1'00":Nakagawa: We need to adopt the (domestic) budget for FY21 and related bills for FY20 budget as soon as possible.
1'31":Reporter: (The joint declaration was) far more practical one than before...
1'35":Nakagawa: Where!?
1'37":Reporter: Yes? Oh it's me. I'm sorry.
Right out of school I went to work for BAC. Back then it was restricted to operating in CA only. Gov would not let them expand to the point that they would become to big to fail. Guess the lobbying paid off and here we are.
daily bail writes: because of poltiical fear of telling the truth to the citizenry.
Disagree. It's exactly like Japan, but the reason isn't the citizenry. It's because if it was seriously undertaken, people's golf buddies would go to jail, and too many of them are know very well where the bodies are buried and who took bribes from who.
When you need money, robbing a bank is one option. Today the US needs money, lots of it. The banks are China and the Near East. We can't rob China since they have the bomb, but the Near East is defenseless. So let's rob Arabia, the Emirates, Kuwait, and you name it. They couldn't retaliate. It would be like taking candy from a baby. Long live the US Empire to Be.
i was surprised the dems put it in the bill without the tacit support of the white house or at least a nod from rahn emmanuel. daily bail | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:17 pm | #
I wasn't surprised at all by what they did. The people in Congress, especially Democrats who voted for TARP, have taken a lot of heat because of the way Paulson pissed away the first $350 billion.
Obama remains immune from that episode. Dodd and Frank don't.
There are lots of auctioneers, some national, some local. We get notices for auctions all over the country. They advertise to other shops and manufacturing companies, particularly ones that have attended/participated in earlier auctions. Used to be you had to physically attend, but now many are conducted over the internet.
Listen, Rusty can I call you Rusty? Okay then, here's what you do:
You and all the other pipsqueak "community bankers" need to go to the money center banks C, BAC, JPMorgan, and the rest of the miserable eight and get yourself a line of credit of about a billion dollars, okay?
Then stuff as much of that money as possible into a bunch of envelopes marked "campaign contributions" and FedEx them to Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Chuck Schumer and the rest...
Voila! You are now the new power in banking here in the U.S. of A.
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters.
Yeah those people who lost their jobs are just whiners. They need to start living off their dividends and bond coupons. What's wrong with these no accounts?
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters Anonymous | 02.16.09 - 3:46 pm | #
This is why the electorate needs to be lied to, always! If they know the truth their naive reactions will always make things worse... ONLY the elite should know! Why isn't there such a law....
Canadian manufacturing sales took their steepest tumble in at least 17 years in December, falling for a fifth straight month and capping off the worst period ever for auto trade with the United States.
Statistics Canada said Monday that December's 8.0 per cent decline to $44.2 billion, accelerating from November's 6.4 per cent pullback, was the largest monthly sag in manufacturing sales since the agency began compiling the data in the current form in January 1992.
if your still here check out the video on the home page if you havent yet. its the swan and mr doom. mr. doom wants investment in real productive assets and human capital...
I say open the vault on the big banks and let each asset be auctioned to banks (certified) in the state where the asset resides bid only on the assets that reside in their state. unpackage them in to individual assets we may learn more of why this and where this fiasco blew up.... we will also get to see just how many times a single asset was leveraged.
when your competitors get wiped out, what typically happens to their shop equipment? Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:38 pm | #
dryfly had a good story here a year or so ago about a fully operational machine shop located IIRC in Ohio that was available, together with it's century old building, for some ridiculously low amount I can't recall.
I expressed surprise because the numbers seemed unreasonably low and he replied that, once auto parts supply was gone, there were an abundance of shops in that area that no one was interested in buying.
I took that to me the decaying of America was more than just a financial meltdown. I'm sure he could supply the details I have forgotten.
where he claims the bulk of this economic catastrophe is obamas fear mongering
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters
if the democrats werent such a bunch of weannies and pussies
they should could say STFU or we will pull back all the tarp, (taxes to insitutions = to benefit received so far) with-hold the rest of the tarp (350 billion?) and no tax cuts, no tax increases and put a hold on all the stimulus except for food and shelter for the indigent and see who blinks first
i listen to right wing radio regularly and their outright lies are ugly
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
this guy, like that other wind bag, oreally, spews forth venomous attacks as a substitute for honest analysis
i realize the dems are often wrong..but they, we, dont need to lie to prove it when they are
Wally, yes, I AM big enough to stand up to the banks, the only thing holding me back is i am not IMPORTANT enough, nor carry enough clout, or i would go over with pink slips to them all...
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
Really , what a dope, everyone knows it was Hillary...
The best run bank I ever saw (and had accounts with) had one branch. The bank president sat behind a plate glass window where he could keep one eye on everything that happened in the lobby. Decision making was almost instant. The lobby people knew almost everyone by their first name.
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 3:59 pm | #
wally writes: Realistically - is there anybody in the US government today who is big enough to stand up to the big banks?
Obama could do so very easily. He has plenty of troops and plenty of administrative machinery he could deploy to control them after he decapitated them. As mp is fond of pointing out, the US armed forces have quite a lot of bookkeeping involved. It'd suck for a minute, but I'd have a lot more confidence in a 19 year old supply clerk than the current crop of worthies.
The entire issue is one of political will. It could be over in a morning, except it won't be.
they should could say STFU or we will pull back all the tarp, (taxes to insitutions = to benefit received so far) with-hold the rest of the tarp (350 billion?)
Did you check the vote on the TARP? Most Repubs would welcome a pullback on TARP funds.
mock turtle writes: take money out of band banks and save at your local institution (check rating first) or invest in "first mattresses"
That what I did. My spouse and I keep transactional money in our accounts. The rest is held elsewhere, outside the banking system.
I think this is much more effective than a tax revolt, because it puts the sword of leverage in your hands - just like every deposited dollar is loaned again and again, every withdrawn dollar has a multiplied effect.
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 3:59 pm | #
And when he was gov. of Ark. he killed those 3 boy by running them over with a train.
"According to an estimate by outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas, layoffs in January totaled 241,749, up 45 percent from December and the highest monthly number in seven years"
our illustrious walll street journal opinion page rises to the top of the cesspool again like a turd
from wiki
"Foster had difficulty making the transition to life and politics in Washington.[10] He found his involvement in vetting new presidential appointments during the transition period to be causing him depression and anxiety,[10] and he blamed himself for the failed Zoe Baird nomination.[10] The failed Kimba Wood and Lani Guinier appointments were also in his purview.[12]"
snip
"Days after the speech, the White House travel office controversy erupted.[3] Foster was the target of several hostile Wall Street Journal editorials in June and July 1993,[10] with titles such as "Who is Vincent Foster?"[9] He became quite upset over the travel office matter and the possibility of a congressional hearing[10] at which he may have been called to testify.[12] Disliking the public spotlight[9] and suffering from weight loss and insomnia,[10] he considered resigning his position but feared a personal humiliation upon returning to Arkansas.[10]
Wrestling with clinical depression, Foster was prescribed the mild sleeping aid/anti-anxiety pill Trazodone over the phone by his doctor, though he only had taken a few before he died. The next day, Foster was found dead in Fort Marcy Park, a federal park in Virginia. He was found with a gun in his hand and gunshot residue on that hand. An autopsy determined that he was shot in the mouth and no other wounds were found on his body. A suicide note of sorts, actually a draft of a resignation letter, was found torn into 27 pieces in his briefcase, a list of complaints specifically including, "The WSJ editors lie without consequence"[15] and lamenting, "I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport."
PitchPole writes: Where "outside the banking system"??
In secure undisclosed locations.
Make sure you spread it out. Gotta assume you'll have any given cache stolen or confiscated. If you don't have friends you can't park a few grand on, you don't have friends.
Clinton ushered out the Glass-Steagall Act, which for decades had separated commercial and investment banking, and signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act - which exempted all derivatives, including the now-notorious credit-default swaps, from federal regulation.
Another in denial deluded assclown like entire GOP, Greenspin etc etc etc
"I think this is much more effective than a tax revolt, because it puts the sword of leverage in your hands - just like every deposited dollar is loaned again and again, every withdrawn dollar has a multiplied effect.
The_Littlest_Mandarin | 02.16.09 - 4:09 pm | # "
--me and my wife too
people think i joke when i talk about cash in a mayonnaise jar buried somewhere
ok its not out back and the jar wasn't mayonnaise
but beside cash on hand savings and some PMs
we took all our money out of two evil banks and then located 4 that were conservative, honest, and financially healthy institutions.
NYT is, like, "you have to pay $ for content, na-na-na-na-na!" brushes9 | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:19 pm | #
Let's see how long that lasts. The dead tree edition can not compte with the online version, and the online version can not compete with the aggregators. The arguement that someone needs to pay for the NYT or WSJ or LAT to have a reporter in London, Dubai, and Hong Kong is undemined by the local news in those regions already reporting there.
Utill The NYT becomes and aggregator themselves, they are toast.
My high school newspaper said it was ordered by Hill through Chelsea's dad , not Bill Clinton but Webster Hubble, I think they were keying in on the gene's responsible from the DSL's...
But what do you expect from a haigh school rag...
Nothing is ever normal, nor as it seems here inside the DC diamond..
km4 wrote
"Clinton ushered out the Glass-Steagall Act, which for decades had separated commercial and investment banking, and signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act - which exempted all derivatives, including the now-notorious credit-default swaps, from federal regulation.
Another in denial deluded assclown like entire GOP, Greenspin etc etc etc
km4 | 02.16.09 - 4:20 pm | #
hey km4
not exactly right...yes clinton does bear some responsibility
but glass steagall had been gutted by administrative decisions long before gramm bliley act was passed by congress and signed by clinton
by the way...at tthe time clinton was being tried in the sentate for lieing about sex with monica etc..
that nov the senatee foted 92 to 2 with 6 abstentions for senator phill gramms de reg bill
now honestly do you think clinton or any other sane person is going to veto a senate bill while under trial pursuant to impeachment proceedings after a 92 to 2 vote???
Seriously, I posted about a week ago that this is 1993 all over again. For two brief years the Democrats controlled Congress and the White House. During that time all the Republicans did was lie and mock the incumbents. It's all they can do. They have no ideas of their own beyond tax cuts, passing out taxpayer money to their selected beneficiaries, and invading foreign countries. They will continue doing this for the next 21 months and hope to regain seats in Congress.
Remember, last time it resulted in the Contract With America and Clinton's presidency was derailed for the next 6 years.
For all those who think this is the fault of "both parties," wake up and smell the coffee.
Barley writes: Money always changes relationships and when your hungry, its every person for themselves...
If you don't have people you can park a few grand on, you don't have people. For real for real. If you don't have relationships that tight, who will come bribe you out when the cops haul you off to Abu Ghraib for no reason? This is the absolute truth of existence in marginal conditions.
The young fir that falls and rots
Having neither needles nor bark,
So is the fate of the friendless man:
Why should he live long?
Man is a social animal. Find allies or you're meat for those who have them.
Yea though I walk through the valley of ponies I shall reap no skittles for the banksters preceded me. Their CDS and cross-collateralization shall follow me and my children all the days of our lives.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:03 pm | #
we took all our money out of two evil banks and then located 4 that were conservative, honest, and financially healthy institutions. mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 4:21 pm | #
California legislators tried and failed for a second day Sunday to close a $40 billion hole in the state's budget, still one Republican vote short of approving a package that contains $14.3 billion in tax increases.
State Sen. Abel Maldonado, a moderate Republican from Santa Maria, indicated in an interview with The Bee that he was willing to consider casting the decisive vote if he was satisfied with the final version of the tax proposal.
Comment Sacramento
Maldonado is absolutely correct. He is an inspiration! Our country is about to be destroyed by Congress and our new socialist president; California need not follow suit. Increasing taxes will send businesses and individuals away from our state. Then what? I guess we'd have to increase taxes even more so the remaining citizens can keep up with the rampant spending. We need to cut services deeply with no new taxes. Don't you get it? If we citizens are taxed to death, we won't spend. If we don't spend, we don't pay taxes. If we don't spend, businesses go broke. If businesses go broke, citizens don't work. If citizens don't work, there is less revenue and more dependence on government. With more people on assistance, more revenue (taxes) is needed. Eventually, there won't be enough tax payers to keep up with the need. That's when the voters will realize socialism doesn't work, but it will be too late. Cut the spending idiots.
dryfly had a good story here a year or so ago about a fully operational machine shop located IIRC in Ohio that was available, together with it's century old building, for some ridiculously low amount I can't recall.
I expressed surprise because the numbers seemed unreasonably low and he replied that, once auto parts supply was gone, there were an abundance of shops in that area that no one was interested in buying. sportsfan | 02.16.09 - 3:58 pm | #
I was part of the discussion but it was mp who 'found' the factory - something like $50K and it was yours, equipment office & building. Near Toledo or Detroit. Automotive 'support' industry - fixtures, tooling & jigs used on the production lines is what I figured a shop like that would do. Too small to do high volume production.
And there are more of those now - lots more - and even less interest in buying them. With scrap prices so low you have to pay to have the scrap hauled away - a lesson one of my friends learned when his little company kicked the bucket.
dont allow the right wing media to bull shit you about responsibility for gutting glass steagall
the history is clear...clinton hammered the last nail,,there were about 40 nails hammered before
read it and weep
--- from frontline
In December 1986, the Federal Reserve Board, which has regulatory jurisdiction over banking, reinterprets Section 20 of the Glass-Steagall Act, which bars commercial banks from being "engaged principally" in securities business, deciding that banks can have up to 5 percent of gross revenues from investment banking business.
The Fed Board then permits Bankers Trust, a commercial bank, to engage in certain commercial paper (unsecured, short-term credit) transactions. In the Bankers Trust decision, the Board concludes that the phrase "engaged principally" in Section 20 allows banks to do a small amount of underwriting, so long as it does not become a large portion of revenue.
This is the first time the Fed reinterprets Section 20 to allow some previously prohibited activities.
In the spring of 1987, the Federal Reserve Board votes 3-2 in favor of easing regulations under Glass-Steagall Act, overriding the opposition of Chairman Paul Volcker.
The vote comes after the Fed Board hears proposals from Citicorp, J.P. Morgan and Bankers Trust advocating the loosening of Glass-Steagall restrictions to allow banks to handle several underwriting businesses, including commercial paper, municipal revenue bonds, and mortgage-backed securities.
Thomas Theobald, then vice chairman of Citicorp, argues that three "outside checks" on corporate misbehavior had emerged since 1933: "a very effective" SEC; knowledgeable investors, and "very sophisticated" rating agencies. Volcker is unconvinced, and expresses his fear that lenders will recklessly lower loan standards in pursuit of lucrative securities offerings and market bad loans to the public.
For many critics, it boiled down to the issue of two different cultures - a culture of risk which was the securities business, and a culture of protection of deposits which was the culture of banking.
In March 1987, the Fed approves an application by Chase Manhattan to engage in underwriting commercial paper, applying the same reasoning as in the 1986 Bankers Trust decision, and in April it issues an order outlining its rationale. While the Board remains sensitive to concerns about mixing commercial banking and underwriting, it states its belief that the original Congressional intent of "principally engaged" allowed for some securities activities.
The Fed also indicates that it will raise the limit from 5 percent to 10 percent of gross revenues at some point in the future. The Board believes the new reading of Section 20 will increase competition and lead to greater convenience and increased efficiency.
In August 1987, Alan Greenspan -- formerly a director of J.P. Morgan and a proponent of banking deregulation -- becomes chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. One reason Greenspan favors greater deregulation is to help U.S. banks compete with big foreign institutions.
1989-1990 Further loosening of Glass-Steagall In January 1989, the Fed Board approves an application by J.P. Morgan, Chase Manhattan, Bankers Trust, and Citicorp to expand the Glass-Steagall loophole to include dealing in debt and equity securities in addition to municipal securities and commercial paper.
This marks a large expansion of the activities considered permissible under Section 20, because the revenue limit for underwriting business is still at 5 percent. Later in 1989, the Board issues an order raising the limit to 10 percent of revenues, referring to the April 1987 order for its rationale.
Maldonado is absolutely correct. He is an inspiration! Our country is about to be destroyed by Congress and our new socialist president; California need not follow suit. LAM | 02.16.09 - 4:33 pm | #
What's the weather like? Comrade Misean is Dope | 02.16.09 - 4:35 pm | #
LOL - just like you'd expect in February up here - brownish gray frozen dirt/snow/dogshit mounds everywhere - just waiting to melt. Might get an inch of 'white' to night to hid it all - for a couple more weeks.
Plus I have the annual midwinter cold - snot nose and all. Just effing lovely.
I was part of the discussion but it was mp who 'found' the factory dryfly | 02.16.09 - 4:33 pm | #
My apologies to mp for not attributing the story to him. I definitely recall, though, that you, dryfly, were not surprised at what was available for such a low price.
whats interesting in my long comment above is in the middle
8th para...volker is dead set against the weakening of rule 20 and glass steagall, but is brushed aside by the likes of greenspan
you know greenspan... hes the guy who said budget surpluses as far as the eye can see in congressional hearings circa 2002... and lowered rates to 1% for way over a year...yeah thats the guy
"It would take too long to recite all the actions that chipped away at Glass-Steagall but a few highlights stand out. In the mid-1980s a Federal Reserve Board stocked with Reagan-Bush appointees began reinterpreting Glass-Steagall in a series of actions that slowly expanded the ability of banks to engage in other financial operations. In 1990, the Fed, under former J.P. Morgan director Alan Greenspan, permitted guess whoJ.P. Morganto become the first bank allowed to underwrite securities. It is noteworthy that if William Jennings Bryan had had his way about the Federal Reserve Act, Greenspan would have never ascended to the position that allowed him to weaken the act named for the father of the Federal Reserve System.
Four legislative attempts were made to weaken or repeal parts of Glass-Steagall from 1988-1996. One reason they failed is because smaller banks feared that opening the doors to allow banks to trade in securities would lead to the domination of larger banksa fate that has come to pass. The biggest change came in 1996 when Alan Greenspan issued a ruling allowing bank investment affiliates to have up to a quarter of their business in investments."
Wyndham Worldwide Corp., the largest seller of timeshare vacation units, is withdrawing plans to sell as much as $200 million in shares, citing investors strongly negative reaction.
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right.
My apologies to mp for not attributing the story to him. I definitely recall, though, that you, dryfly, were not surprised at what was available for such a low price. sportsfan | 02.16.09 - 4:41 pm | #
Hmmm 65 and Sunny here in Florida...I haven't been sick in over two years now save some minor allergies to pollen. I'm not sure why I don't get more colds and such handling money daily but for some reason the climate here seems to agree with me. You two get somebody to make you a nice pot of homemade chicken soup. Have them add a can of Rotel Diced tomatoes with chilis. It'll have you feeling better in no time.
mock turtle, you seem to have endless resources available to support your positions.
popeye, that was a good summary and link also.
Perhaps the internet will make it more difficult than it was in the past to rewrite history in such a way as to remove the blame from where it squarely belongs.
I guess I still have some hope . . . or is that just a wish in one hand . . . .will find out when the future arrives.
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right.
Trust your feelings, Luke.
Eric | 02.16.09 - 4:50 pm | #
That doesn't work for everybody, E. It can be useful to understand your strategy for decision-making, particularly if you want to change to a more effective strategy.
I fear the banking cartel. They are more powerful than standing armies.
They will do something incredibly stupid on their part in order to maintain their rule over the world.
They must be seized secretly, silently, and without warning before they have a chance to make their move. They must not be allowed to chose another country of primary operation. It is imperative that the lines of communication stay open. Downed satellite systems must not become an impediment to our monitoring of their operations. You have no idea what they are capable of.
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right. Sebastian | 02.16.09 - 4:47 pm | #
Did you read the article, or are you suddenly a believer of NAR stats?
It can be useful to understand your strategy for decision-making, particularly if you want to change to a more effective strategy. Feckless Ness | 02.16.09 - 4:54 pm | #
Or it could just be a throw-away clip from "Star Wars".
excellent link you posted on glass-steagall and gramm-bliley act.
very fair, gives clinton an appropriate level of blame and shows the historical wickedness of the banksters like Sandy Weill and several others,some on the left like rubin, and the we dont need no stinkin regulation types on the right like greenspan and phill gramm
sportsfan writes:
Perhaps the internet will make it more difficult than it was in the past to rewrite history in such a way as to remove the blame from where it squarely belongs.
Same source:
Anyone who thinks the repeal of Glass-Steagall was forced on an unwilling Bill Clinton need only read Rubins testimony.
The banking industry is fundamentally different from what it was two decades ago, let alone in 1933. He said the industry has been transformed into a global business of facilitating capital formation through diverse new products, services and markets. U.S. banks generally engage in a broader range of securities activities abroad than is permitted domestically, said the Treasury secretary. Even domestically, the separation of investment banking and commercial banking envisioned by Glass-Steagall has eroded significantly.
If new, regional, smaller banks are the hot thing going forward, then I guess Meredith Whitney was correct a month ago:..(Ps: why do I troll these blogs..to find out what the sheeple will do, and call original?)...
when i learn im wrong about something, i add the other guys arguments to the appropriate folder and change my opinion mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 5:00 pm | #
Congratulations. The ability to change one's opinion is the sign of a strong mind.
I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: Mibbit IRC client widget (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)
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Let's not confuse Bill Clinton with Liberals. Bill was always a corporatist, so is his wife. I am a Liberal and I hate both of them with a white hot passion.
"So why did Weill call Clinton, and what did Clinton do? One take comes from a National Housing Institute article by Malcolm Bush and Katy Jacob.
In an unusual move, the three key Republican Chairmen bypassed the usual conference committee debates by writing a final compromise themselves. That bills CRA provisions resembled the original Senate bill. (House Banking Committee Chairman Jim Leach had fought in the House for a bipartisan bill with no anti-CRA measures while Senate Banking Chair Phil Gramm had insisted on the Senates anti-CRA provisions.)
At this point, tremendous pressure was exerted on the Clinton Administration, which had earlier threatened to veto the Senate version, to sign the legislation, and intense negotiations continued over community reinvestment and consumer privacy provisions."
"final compromise"
consider this
during "negotiations" clinton was being impeached in the house and soon after was tried in the senate
(imagine this)
mr president you sure could use some friendly votes in the senate if you know what i mean
i guess it was just lucky that monica saved that stained blue dress
-- i dont exonerate clinton at all
but
to place even half the blame on him is bs...there weree a host of actors going back to reagan appointees etc
"i was surprised the dems put it in the bill without the tacit support of the white house or at least a nod from rahn emmanuel."
.......like who reads a spending bill before voting on it?
"last time it resulted in the Contract With America...."
....what were the provisions of that again?
Anyone who thinks the repeal of Glass-Steagall was forced on an unwilling Bill Clinton need only read Rubin's testimony. Popeye | 02.16.09 - 5:00 pm | #
He was in the mix for sure. But, you know, that was about the same time that he authorized the launch of dozens of cruise missiles in an attempt to kill bin Laden, for which he was immediately criticized for trying to 'Wag the Dog,' as the movie of the same name had shown, instead of answering important accusations that he should be removed from office amid questions about exactly how many BJs he had received while in office.
His successor, though, played it cool, hanging out in Texas for a month long vacation, and ignoring the national security reports predicting an attack within the United States, before returning to work the week before 9/11.
There are the kind of lapses in judgment that we all make at one time or another . . . and then there are colossal blunders.
It's good to see that some people are taking on the agenda of the internationalist Jews who want to centralize all financial/economic power under their sole control.
So, the causes of the world's financial woes are the interstate banking and financial services holding company legislation passed by the U.S. Congress! Folks who subscribe to this thesis should be teaching Econ 101, where everything is made simple and clear for freshmen eyes and ears.
I'm left wondering why people like Michael J. Panzner bothered to write intricate tomes about the multiple dangers confronting the financial system when it was obvious there were only two contributing causes? Poor fellow. He wasted a lot of time.
If I remember correctly, the Contract With America consisted of:
* require all laws that apply to the rest of the country also apply to Congress;
* select a major, independent auditing firm to conduct a comprehensive audit of Congress for waste, fraud or abuse;
* cut the number of House committees, and cut committee staff by one-third;
* limit the terms of all committee chairs;
* ban the casting of proxy votes in committee;
* require committee meetings to be open to the public;
* require a three-fifths majority vote to pass a tax increase;
* and implement a zero base-line budgeting process for the annual Federal Budget.
What the He** could anyone argue about with these points? Jeeminy.
Black Star Ranch(Good) writes:
"If I remember correctly, the Contract With America consisted of:
...
What the He** could anyone argue about with these points? Jeeminy."
"NC Jim writes:
It seems the problems started when the ban on interstate banking was lifted and the ego driven M&A mania started.
I liked Wachovia as a conservative NC bank, Worked fine for generations.
Jim
NC Jim | 02.16.09 - 2:43 pm | #"
LOL. i remember in undergrad as an econ major taking my first banking class, this bank was brought up and the teacher smirked and called it a quaint, conservative local bank.
As someone who's whole household income (aside from stock market gambling) is based on real estate investment, I would warn people not to capitulate so soon.
This has just begun. The time for saying "game over" is a ways off. If you've already reached that point, you weren't really playing, but just another gambler at the table.
Or, I guess, you could make plans to move in with Uncle Sebastian. I'm sure the conversation would be enlightening.
Umm, are investors staying on the sidelines and avoiding investing in the large banks because of fears of nationalization, or is it BECAUSE THEY ARE INSOLVENT?
Would love to hear views on this.
Not sure that I buy the argument that talk of nationalization is the barrier here. It's a pretty obvious yellow light to any investor--that is if they can't see molten, mangled wreckage when its blocking the road in front of them.
If new, regional, smaller banks are the hot thing going forward, then I guess Meredith Whitney was correct a month ago:..(Ps: why do I troll these blogs..to find out what the sheeple will do, and call original?)...
I want my six minutes back! There is nothing in that CNBC analyst rant that correlates to discussion of breaking up the 'too big to fail' Banks. Few, if any (I haven't read every post in this thread), think the idea to break up the TBF Banks is original.
The goal of the major banks is to put the little guys out of business so just a few large banks run it all....the same large banks that own the Federal Reserve (JPMorgan-Chase, Bank of America and Citicorp)
uno
You know, I have to say: amen! This is precisely what we need...screw the supermarket model. That was a recipe for inefficiency supported by monopolistic power.
Gimme back the small, community based banking. If there are economies of scale in processing/servicing, etc., outsource those paper-pushing operational functions.
We said this some time ago...I like this idea
Rusty Cloutier has hit the nail on the head: the last thing we need is to concentrate power into a few banks.
Not only does that lead to a potential "too big to fail" syndrome, it also stifles competition, and increases the damage done when a bank does behave badly.
We need a little economic conservationism: cull the herd and take out the big banks so that the rest can thrive.
Fat. Chance.
Break up C into 10-15 regional banks, same with BAC....
slowly the net closes.
the impossible is eliminated, and all that is left is pre-privatization, with large scale support from the business sector, and even a chunk of the banking sector.
From Simon Johnson
"The banking lobby has become too powerful, in large part because big banks have balance sheets that are too big relative to the size of the economy. If a bank has total assets of over 10% of GDP, it is obviously too big to fail. Of course, the smart people who run these banks know this and act - politically and economically - accordingly.
We need a strong system of financial intermediation, and this must feature people willing to take risks with their own capital. In that context, there may be efficiency arguments in favor of relatively large deposit-taking/lending banks (although Im far from convinced), but it is the political economy considerations that are overwhelming. When all is said and done, if we still have large banks with great political power, we will eventually find ourselves in even bigger trouble."
"And small banks can't raise capital because investors are concerned that their competitors (the large banks) will be continuously bailed out by the government."
Or fear that the big banks get bailed, and the FDIC keeps chewing and spewing the small ones to the big ones...
Nostrovia,
Gee, now folks begin to state the obvious- Wall Street shouldn't be in the game of funding houses.
Now we return to our regularly scheduled debacle de jour.
I think I will be applying for a job with the FDIC, after all it should be good for five to seven years.
Someday this war's gonna end...
If this happens...good night NY real estate prices...
Honestly, I think we need a few years of NO banks before we're ready to jump onto that ship again. Not to mention that this is the worst-possible time for startup banks.
Another point that's seldom made these days (except on CR, of course): Big banks have benefited greatly over small banks during the last 15 years due to deregulation taking away their retail business. (That's why they're so into CRE.) We need to see a small bank lobby form up quickly and attack these bailouts; one crucial piece of the preprivatization plan will be the breakup of the money center banks and the dolling out of their retail market share to the regionals.
Local banks have taken it on the chin for too long!
This is because when times get really bad, as they did when the Soviet Union collapsed, lots of people just completely lose it. Men, especially. Successful, middle-aged men, breadwinners, bastions of society, turn out to be especially vulnerable. And when they just completely lose it, they become very tedious company. My hope is that some amount of preparation, psychological and otherwise, can make them a lot less fragile, and a bit more useful, and generally less of a burden.
...
so, without a bit of mental preparation, the men are all liable to end up
very lonely and very drunk.
ClubOrlov
Starting to see this.
Who could have known that deregulation and banking monopolies would be a bad idea?
Sebastian capitulates?
The bottom must be near!
.
yes yes yes. please break them up
Found this on Mish this am.
"Land of the Free and Home of the Broke: The United States of Insolvency"
Page Not Found - The Daily Bail
Oops. Trouble coming very soon.
and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital? We'll build a wall then?
It seems the problems started when the ban on interstate banking was lifted and the ego driven M&A mania started.
I liked Wachovia as a conservative NC bank, Worked fine for generations.
Jim
It was nice to know you, Rusty.
My condolences to your family.
"Broward Horne writes:
Sebastian capitulates?"
What did he say?
The New Paranoia: Hedge-Funders Are Bullish on Gold, Guns, and Inflatable Lifeboats
What's Making Hedge-Funders Paranoid - The All New Issue -- New York Magazine
Lifeboats? WTF? That hasn't been on my prep list.
Also, from a systems theory perspective, loosely coupled, redundant systems are far more resilient than tightly-coupled, non-redundant systems. Redundancy is more expensive up front and on an ongoing basis, but the risk of systemic failure is greatly reduced.
Small regional banks now!
"During the Visigoths final siege of Rome...the very end...The colloseum attendees demanded the right to bid on the slain corpses of gladiators for food."
And here I thought that the gladiatorial shows in the Colosseum ended 6 years before the Visigoths sacked Rome.
Still, it sounds nice.
We don't need banks, we need places for groups of people to live, REAL work for them do, food for them to eat and ways to properly educate the next generation.
They're forgetting where the mess is, OTC derivatives. How and who is going to take that on to their books?
but then who is going to trade cds and get the $20mm pay package's?
and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital?
anon | 02.16.09 - 2:43 pm | #
Nope. Part of the breakup must be a new regulatory framework that includes systemic risk accounting. Nothing wrong with foreign banks, so long as the open their books and follow the rules.
REZEKNE, Latvia (AP) For decades, the Rebir factory was the pride of the industrial town of Rezekne in eastern Latvia, with demand for its power drills and chain saws surviving the collapse of communism as it won over capitalist customers.
\tBut the factorys owners closed up shop late last year, a victim of high labor costs during the countrys now-collapsed boom. Some 1,000 people in the town of 36,000 lost their jobs, sending local unemployment to nearly 15 percent, and with the recession deepening hopes for new work are fading.
\tThe worst is yet to come, said Diana Zirnina, a city administration official. We can feel that people are angry.
\tRezeknes boom-to-bust woes are mirrored across Latvia and its Baltic Sea neighbors, Estonia and Lithuania.
\tNot long ago, the three countries were nicknamed Baltic Tigers for their rapid growth and business friendly policies, and held up as models for other countries that regained control of their destinies after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.
\tNow their economies are contracting sharply, pounded by the global financial crisis just as they were struggling to deal with a decline that set in after their economies overheated due to loose credit and government spending.
Sebastian capitulates?"
What did he say?
He mumbled something about the Titanic and "nothing left to discuss", a few bubbles floated up and then... silence.
.
Witness the birth of the new paradigm:
"it is very important, to all you "deadbeats" out there, that you NOT do what THEY tell you..."
--me
By Greg Burns
Chicago Tribune
\tCHICAGO With so many personal finance decisions turning into disasters, a chorus of voices is singing the praises of financial-literacy education.
\tMake every American a financial whiz, the thinking goes, and credit bubbles never will bedevil us again.
\tTrouble is, growing evidence suggests that financial-literacy courses dont work. Worse, they may actually hurt, in part by making their graduates overconfident about limited skills.
\tFew want to hear that message, according to Lauren Willis, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles whose recent paper, Against Financial Literacy Education, shook up all sorts of vested interests.
\tI get hate mail, Willis said. People believe in financial-literacy education. Its like a religion. Its like apple pie. Theyre not interested in knowing the truth.
\tPlenty of people make a living off these courses, and lawmakers love them, since they give the impression that something is being done about the intractable problem of financial ignorance.
\tUtah, Missouri and Tennessee require students to take a semester-long personal-finance class before graduating from high school. Seventeen other states incorporate financial education into other subjects by decree, of course.
\tThe Indiana Senate this month approved a bill that would require personal financial responsibility to be taught from kindergarten through high school. Its sponsor described it as an appropriate response to difficult times. Other states are mulling expanded mandates.
\tThese measures dont affect only youth. Adults face similar obligatory instruction when they seek bankruptcy protection or, in some cases, apply for loans.
\tAcademics have known for years about the scant evidence in support of the programs, but few are willing to go as far as Willis in bluntly denouncing them as a counterproductive racket.
\tShe cites examples, such as the high school students who took a semester-long personal-finance course and tested worse than those who didnt. Or the graduates of retirement-planning classes who thought their literacy had increased, when their financial test scores had not.
\tNow comes a study from Harvard Business School raising more doubts. Using rigorous methodology, it concluded that programs in widespread use during the past two decades were no use at all.
\tThey werent effective in changing peoples financial decisions, said Shawn Cole, one of two professors behind the report, titled If You Are So Smart, Why Arent You Rich?
\tWe find no effect, he said. My gut feeling is that teaching math or statistics would be more useful.
\tStill, Cole believes it may be possible to design an effective program. Thats a common theme among those who favor financial education: Just because no one has proven these courses work is no reason to give up searching for the right formula.
\tWillis has other ideas. She wants to forget about making Americans capable of handling their credit and investment needs most will never get there, especially given the fast-moving, complicated nature of financial services.
\tShe favors pro-consumer regulation and one-on-one counseling with unbiased advisers. Sure, those could be tough to come by. But no one said saving Americans from themselves would be easy.
Conjure says, "Seize the banks. Do it now."
"Now, dammit. Now."
Cut Bait writes:
Lifeboats? WTF? That hasn't been on my prep list.
They think they are Titanic
Exactly, I have been talking to others about starting a new local well capitalized bank. Not only is everyone scared to put money into this venture with all these bailouts, the FDIC is not adding any more new banks right now.
âNobody is going to put fresh capital into the banking business when your major competitor is going to be continuously bailed out by the United States government with more and more money."
Why limit this to banking?
âNobody is going to put fresh capital into the [_____] business when your major competitor is going to be continuously bailed out by the United States government with more and more money."
US governance at every level needs to adopt their own version of the Hippocratic oath: "In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves."
The realist in me hopes that the EU collapses spectacularly with massive social unrest. I hope we watch it in real time here in the US and then take the necessary steps to ensure we don't disintegrate in the same manner. The uber realist in me says if they go then so shall we.
Thank you Atlantic and Pacific. Thank you Canada. Mexico, well we are watching you very very carefully.
Quit your sock puppeting.
Back off man, just back off. I'm not kidding.
Trust your UberRealist, Bait
Ministry of Truth writes:
Exactly, I have been talking to others about starting a new local well capitalized bank
Send a note to the FDIC. They must hard pressed to find buyers for bad banks. And, once the bad stuff is off loaded onto the FDIC, a troubled bank might just have a chance.
keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men,
What about animals? I see no clause about animals.
.
That's Ballgame Comrades writes:
the three countries were nicknamed Baltic Tigers for their rapid growth and business friendly policies
The three Baltic republics focused their economic policies on moving from manufacturing-based economy to service-based economy, as manufacturing was viewed as something that must be done in Asia, and not by fast-growing European states (I heard this thought many times from people from those countries).
Not that the industrial base is helping Russia and Ukraine all that much...
interesting.
Critiquing CNBCs House Of Cards and Its Role In The Crisis
News Dissector Blog » Blog Archive » Critiquing CNBC’s House of Cards and Its Role In The Crisis
He mumbled something about the Titanic and "nothing left to discuss", a few bubbles floated up and then... silence.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:49 pm | #
Let's be fair. Sebastian capitulated several months ago.
Cut Bait writes:
The realist in me hopes that the EU collapses spectacularly with massive social unrest. I hope we watch it in real time here in the US and then take the necessary steps to ensure we don't disintegrate in the same manner
Don't worry , no sociial unrest in the US. We're too obese as a nation. Half would have a stroke getting to the march
"Now, dammit. Now."
It's too late. Last summer might have done it. Fall of 2007 would have been better
and this is not a smart move by obama.
- NY Times
the bank break-up will not happen. at least not until after receivership.
Let's be fair. Sebastian capitulated several months ago.
I thought he capitulated on the market. Today he capitulated on The Depression.
.
What about animals? I see no clause about animals.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:54 pm | #
Yea, though they seem but lowly beasts all thy ponies shall be exalted above all other creatures. For the pony, the pony is the source of all skittles.
For the pony, the pony is the source of all skittles.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:57 pm | #
/amen
social unrest is part of the european fabric.
US social unrest occurs only in chatrooms, apparently.
I thought he capitulated on the market. Today he capitulated on The Depression.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:57 pm | #
That's a good point. I agree with that.
Compared to other countries, the U.S. has much less concentration in its banking system (think RBS, BNP Paribas, UBS.) The problem is that the biggest bank have a different regulator that has not been as concerned about the banks risk management. The problem is the idea that because a bank is big, the assets are diversified, the risks of the assets cancel each other out, so the banks need to hold less capital then smaller banks.
Compared to other countries, the U.S. has much less concentration in its banking system (think RBS, BNP Paribas, UBS.)
Rajesh | 02.16.09 - 2:59 pm | #
Thank our lucky stars for that?!?
MOAR!
what regional banks should do is press for time on local tv newscasts and hammer this home on sleeping Americans.
Break up C into 10-15 regional banks, same with BAC....
crispy&cole | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:39 pm | #
Who gets stuck with the bad assets? Would it not be more reasonable to let them go BK and let the existing regional banks bid on BAC and C's good assets? Why should any of well behaved regional banks, have to compete with gov subsidised and revitalized superbanks. Why can't we let these unsustainalbe super-zombies die?
"Folks, I am a third generation commercial farmer. This survivalist talk is fantasy bunk. To raise food in meaningful quantities takes mechanization, which requires a thriving supply line for parts and maintenance. It also requires a locally thriving marketing and processing industry.
If anyone thinks they can just garden by hand and feed yourself, I have got news for you . Cant be done. An adequate diet requires sufficient quantities of high-protein foods, oils, and bulk carbohydrates. Just growing a few vegetables will not cut it.
You guys need to get real. The basic food growing, process and distributions system will be just fine. Finance is just a bubble floating on top of the real economy."
Good comment from the lifeboat article comment section. He might be missing the need for a financial payment system to pay for those products and supply lines but I like the optimism.
"Yea, though they seem but lowly beasts all thy ponies shall be exalted above all other creatures."
Is that why my pony had a Unicorn's horn shoved up it's a$$?
Nostrovia,
what regional banks should do is press for time on local tv newscasts and hammer this home on sleeping Americans.
/cr/tard
They can't afford the TV time, CRE loans are eating their lunch. Screw them. They want their own bailouts, that's their message.
guess what got missed last week amidst all the other attention grabbers.
phoney and fraudie now need $200 billion.
Fannie, Freddie Funding Needs May Pass $200 Billion, FHFA Says - Bloomberg.com
and of course they were well capitalizes all summer of '08.
bill miller is officially the biggest KNOB in the drawer. he tripled down in July.
can his yacht be siezed when the people take over?
/amen
citizen energyecon | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:58 pm | #
Yea though I walk through the valley of ponies I shall reap no skittles for the banksters preceded me. Their CDS and cross-collateralization shall follow me and my children all the days of our lives.
Who gets stuck with the bad assets?
Blackhalo | 02.16.09 - 3:02 pm | #
Bondholders, then shareholders. After the taxpayer is made whole, of course.
We all have the same goal, Mr. Axelroids said
yeah, Ponies
NY State is getting hungry...
New York Wants To Tax Internet Downloads \t\t\t \t\t
Cut Bait,
That doesn't mean we won't see regional food shortages. Hell, we were just commenting this past weekend that several local big-name grocery chains are having trouble keeping certain foods on the shelves. They're even putting out notes about supply disruptions.
Just the tip of the iceberg, IMO.
Wilber Ross on Bloomberg saying we don't need all these little banks, and Geithner's PPP will work out well...
OT - A dollar costs over 8.5 Swedish Krona today
No one in the U.S. will starve for the first six months of unrest, at least, as we feast on the carcasses of the fat, slovenly bankers.
Check out a full-body profile of Chuck Prince sometime - he could feed a family of four for a couple of weeks, I bet.
Wilber Ross on Bloomberg saying we don't need all these little banks
Isn't Wilbur the vulture trying to scoop up BKUNA?
Who gets stuck with the bad assets? Would it not be more reasonable to let them go BK
Blackhalo | 02.16.09 - 3:02 pm | #
Based on the statement I posted in the prior thread by Merkel there will be no more bankruptcy for big banks for a while.
"To raise food in meaningful quantities takes mechanization,..."
Conjure says, "CHECK!"
"...which requires a thriving supply line for parts and maintenance."
Conjure says, "MACHINE SHOP! CHECK!"
Is that why my pony had a Unicorn's horn shoved up it's a$$?
Some people would call that "government intervention"
.
daily bail writes:
and this is not a smart move by obama.
- NY Times emc=rss
the bank break-up will not happen. at least not until after receivership.
daily bail | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:57 pm | #
Here's the part of that story that I find most significant - Sen Shelby (R) now says compensation caps are necessary, just like Lindsey Graham now says nationalization should be a live option. I think the Repubs have just been suckered into a bipartisan set of actions.
From the NYT article:
Mr. Gibbs may not like it, but it is going to be enforced, Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts and chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said on CBS. This is not an option. This is not, frankly, the Bush administration, where theyre going to issue a signing statement and refuse to enforce it.
Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the ranking Republican on the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, said the compensation provisions were necessary to protect taxpayer money.
I guess it comes down to sovereignty. Does the country have sovereign rights over the big banks or do the big banks have sovereign rights over the government and taxpayers? Ultimately it should be the taxpayers and the government calling the shots. It seems it has been the big banks too big to fail that have been calling the shots and scaring the beegeebiz out of everyone to get more taxpayer money. Some day the taxpayer will be tapped out. Why should banks be in charge when they do not know what their assets are worth, no one outside the banks knows exactly what assets the banks have, and the banks relied on some fairy tale calculations of risk that are based on false assumptions of certainty of the calculations of risk. These same banks bought all the CDSs, CDOs, and MBSs either not knowing the worth of what they were buying or worse knowing what they were buying was worth less than they were paying. Why should they be in charge of operating a lemonade stand?
The whole charade is beyond belief and drawfs any system of fraud in the history of the USA.
"phoney and fraudie now need $200 billion."
I'm losing track of which 200Bs we're talking about.
From Previous thread:
Debt level are larger this time (something like 350% of GDP vs. 250% of GDP
Fair Economist | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 1:17 pm | #
See here.
The 250% GDP was in 1932-33, because GDP had already dropped so much. The ratio in 1929 was 165%. So our reaching 350% when GDP was quite high is totally un precendented.
"I'm losing track of which 200Bs we're talking about."
That's OK, money is fungi...erm...fungible.
Nostrovia,
"and the ego driven M&A mania started"
...speaking of north carolina
"Some people would call that "government intervention""
My pony didn't...said it was more akin to a REAL bad case of hemeroids.
Nostrovia,
bobn
sharp eyes.
This is coming. We are just not there yet. The Administration is catching on fast though. First we'll nationalize, then we'll break 'em into smaller chunks. Big regionals.
@ joe schmoe
good point. i was surprised the dems put it in the bill without the tacit support of the white house or at least a nod from rahn emmanuel.
an ambush from your own party. obama CAN"T fight this thing or he will look like Bush.
and that is one frightening looking chart of historical debt to GDP ratio from bobn
See here.
The 250% GDP was in 1932-33, because GDP had already dropped so much. The ratio in 1929 was 165%. So our reaching 350% when GDP was quite high is totally un precendented.
bobn | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:12 pm | #
Based on the statement I posted in the prior thread by Merkel there will be no more bankruptcy for big banks for a while.
Call it the 9-11/Katrina/Lehman effect, but no politician wants to be on watch, and accused on not acting, if, or when, the big one happens, so they'll continue shoveling money into the bottomless pit.
All your NYT links are not working right now, because the NYT is, like, "you have to pay $ for content, na-na-na-na-na!"
re: Financial Education
Could we at least make sure that before you take out a loan you can pass a test on compound and simple interest. No calculators allowed.
And that you're only allowed to teach that course, if, etc.
-- w
Every time this little bit of dishonest, fraudulent dealing occurs in some tiny little corner of the financial system, a small amount of trust is destroyed and ripples out far beyond that bank and the customer it is stealing from, magnified beyond recognition as it touches huge numbers of other people. A good example of the cumulative effect of this is the sub-prime mortgage. This is a farce. An artificial construction by banks designed to milk outrageous amounts of money from people unable to defend themselves from what amounts to blatant fraud in a form the law describes as conversion. The banks deliberately set out to create this type of mortgage because it is more profitable than the old fashioned type based on honest trust and fair dealing which no longer provided enough profits to fuel the banks rapacious greed. This is how it is done.
Banking’s Systemic Subprime Subterfuge « Your Mortgage or Your Life…
daily bail
it all sets up the ability to nationalize the banks and, what's more, chips away at remaining repub opposition to imposing more stringent regulation over the financial sector down the road when we prepare to shift from pre-privatization to privatizatio
sharp eyes.
joe shmoe | 02.16.09 - 3:15 pm | #
Actually that was pointed out someone else - maybe even here, some time ago. my memory really sucks. At first glance, I had missed this little detail. It's another example of how thoroughly screwed we are.
"gov subsidised and revitalized superbanks"
the fed began as a private consortium of exactly that, and 100 years later, still is...
you folks do realize that, right? that's the 'federal reserve' mentioned on the top of every dollar? skews the nature of the game a bit, dontcha think?
Another Payment Card Processor Hacked? Anyone got any info on this?
There had been indications in early Heartland reports that the FBI was pursuing suspects who may be part of a larger criminal conspiracy targeting multiple companies, but there are no reports yet as to whether this latest breach is part of that investigation, or whether the revelations at Heartland led to this breach being uncovered.
Another Payment Card Processor Hacked : Information Security Resources
An idea that most every one (except those whose incomes depend on the current financial oligarchy) agrees with... surely it is doomed to get nowhere.
Mexican Standoff
Call it the 9-11/Katrina/Lehman effect, but no politician wants to be on watch, and accused on not acting, if, or when, the big one happens, so they'll continue shoveling money into the bottomless pit.
Basel Too | 02.16.09 - 3:19 pm | #
This is a huge statement because it seems to force countries who signed the agreement to participate in cross border rescues. I don't understand why this hasn't made the big news headlines yet... It blew me away when I read it last night.
- NY Times
The realist in me hopes that the EU collapses spectacularly with massive social unrest.
Cut Bait | 02.16.09 - 2:52 pm | #
I think we'll follow them too quickly to do anything. Things have been happening step-wise, not linearly.
here's a corrected link to the times article.
- NY Times
should work
There are a lot of research scientists and some people that are not research scientists who could have told anyone that the risk models for derivatives were flawed and did not provide a reliable prediction of risk. But the models were based on statistical theory and knowledge of statistical theory even among research scientists is often not strong or is ignored. Some of this has to do with a propensity for there to be certainty in the product produced by scientists or salesmen to get things like research money or to make sales. But give the uncertainty a patina of mathematical calculation, certainty and precision, and there can be short term success. Unfortunately when the whole financial system depends on it, the errors can muliply and enlarge. That is what we have now.
Gov. Patterson's proposed Internet tax specifically targets downloads or pornography...but only if you live in NY State.
This is not good for Wall St. bankers!
They'll have to move to Jersey.
from above
(as the visgoths approached), "the citizens of rome bid for corpses of the dead gladiators for food"
hmmm is there an analogy here with ny banksters?
The Administration is catching on fast though.
dashingdwl | 02.16.09 - 3:15 pm | #
Not political observation follows.
Rhetorical question; is there a difference between catching on and willingness to do what is necessary? Of course. Look at the change to date on every aspect of the Executive branch. Smart staff of any party are still ruled by the maxim; "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Is this anything more than a transparent land grab by the regional banking fiefdoms?
Bah, screw this all, BK the banks that are insolvent. Let the solvent institutions buy up the usable bit and stick the stockholders and bondholders with the crap.
The sooner we reboot this crap the sooner we can start building trust in banking again.
Daily Bail,
You should be promoting this guys site :
YouTube - News Dissector Takes on C-NBC
anon writes:
and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital? We'll build a wall then?
Regulate them to death. No business yet born that a determined bureaucracy can't strangle.
A former HBOS executive says he has documents that prove the Prime Minister must take responsibility for the mess in the markets
Blame Brown: Revenge of the whistleblower -
UK Politics, UK - The Independent
uh-oh.
Meredith Whitney, in her video "On Financials," about a month ago, in which she said that this was a "Joe Kennedy" investment era, a video that is no longer on the web; she said that new, small banks would be the HOT thing going forward...I wish, instead that she had said that "brushes9" would be the HOT thing going forward..but it is good to see that the Obama, the NYT and CR are catching up with the HOT Meredith, even if she is getting censored.
Machine shops are going to need their own bailout soon if things don't turn around. Have worked for a job shop for 30 yrs and I haven't seen anything like this. Shops we've given a little work to in the past who have never contacted us are now calling looking for work. There's a decent amount of quoting going on, but no one seems to want to pull the trigger and release an actual order. There won't be too many shops left if this keeps up.
Nary a pony to be found...
The debt chart everyone is referencing at 350% of GDP double counts a great deal of debt today. CDO, CLOs, CMBSs, MBS, and other leveraged debt vehicles are double counted sometimes. Not saying that debt hasnt exploded, just saying that there that dont net out some of that financial debt when they should.
Romania can drive Austria to meltdown
Romania may drive Austria to meltdown
.
"brushes9 writes:
All your NYT links are not working right now, because the NYT is, like, "you have to pay $ for content, na-na-na-na-na!""
the nytimes does not change for anything other than its worthless ad space which only corporate slaves look at. register and free for free.
Gov. Patterson's proposed Internet tax specifically targets downloads or pornography...but only if you live in NY State.
They'll have to move to Jersey.
rich | 02.16.09 - 3:24 pm | #
I think there will be a sudden change in registration information for porn sites. It happens for cell phone companies as well!
Reader Saves $89.76 On Verizon Fees By Changing "Primary Area Of Use" - The Consumerist
More shadow economies will pop up around these flimsy, stupid, rules.
mark Zandi (of moody's) has an excellent analysis of the impact of various proposed stimulus packages upon gdp, employment etc
excellent report
with dollar amounts (see page 12-14) attached to proposals including, tax cut impact, extended food stamps, alternative min tax, roads and bridges, etc
several good graphs and tables
http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf -
i posted this here last night but it's a great read for those who missed it.
why can't we get this for our stimulus bucks?
Running on Fumes No More - NY Times
electric car charging stations.
where's the vision with the stimulus. give us something we can hang our hat on for all this cash.
is that too much to ask?
I never thought or imagined that the Obama administration would be so cowardly and scaredy-cat that it would not move ahead decisively on what was necessary. The guy is confused, timid and inexperienced and I begin to think Hillary, with all her faults, would have been better. Nationalize the damn banks NOW.
The Bank of Israel said on Monday it will follow the lead of other central banks and buy government bonds to increase liquidity in the financial system as another measure with short-term borrowing costs so low.
below zero percent.
"The purpose of this would be as another monetary tool and not a means to create a system to which the government would finance the (budget) deficit through the printing of money," said Gil Bufman, chief economist at Bank Leumi.
"He (Fischer) would like to print money but just enough of it for monetary purposes and not as a source to fund the deficit," he said. "This is something being done all over the world and is just the Bank of Israel following the footsteps of the Fed and other central banks."
Business finance news - currency market news - online UK currency markets - financial news - Interactive Investor
These stupid bastards. Monkey see, monkey do.
sher, our shop is captive.
anon writes:
"and after we break up the big banks, will the foreign banks not come here with lower costs of capital? We'll build a wall then?"
So let them. I thought we were all desperate for credit. We will not soon get back to a situation where churning of unrepayable debt is the world's most profitable industry.
Cut Bait writes:
"Folks, I am a third generation commercial farmer. This survivalist talk is fantasy bunk. To raise food in meaningful quantities takes mechanization, which requires a thriving supply line for parts and maintenance. It also requires a locally thriving marketing and processing industry.
Monocropper dependent on Green Revolution techniques for sure.
"Gov. Patterson's proposed Internet tax specifically targets downloads or pornography"
First, this plan was announced a month ago. But more importantly the vast majority of downloads and pron is not paid for. Patterson will be skimming from a dry lake.
Romania may drive Austria to meltdown
Have a Great Depression! | 02.16.09 - 3:29 pm | #
Again, please read the Merkel quote. It won't drive Austria to a meltdown. It looks like it is all or none.
I begin to think Hillary, with all her faults, would have been better.
Hillary is busy appeasing Japan, no doubt driving their finance minister to drink.. i mean to take medicine and appear drunk.
Wars were what took Germany and the US out of the 1930s Depression. Maybe, to get the GOP to go along, Obama needs to become a warmonger. Here's a nifty idea: invade and conquer all the oil states in the Gulf, seize their resources and use them to pay for the economic bailout of the USA. Hey, they are Arabs, so who cares about them? Israel would be delighted. And likewise Limbaugh and the other right wing warmongering extremists. Cheney would be up and dancing in the aisles.
Hillary is busy appeasing Japan, no doubt driving their finance minister to drink.. i mean to take medicine and appear drunk.
Anonymous | 02.16.09 - 3:34 pm | #
He was just donning the beer goggles.
mp,
We are one of the largest job shops in our area. We have approx 80 different customers in a given year, from various industries, including auto (we're 2nd tier) The auto part is DEAD. Our customer now has about 18 months supply of most items...18 MONTHS! We're lucky we're somewhat diversified...others aren't so lucky and they'll be wiped out. It's all about survival now.
mock turtle,
thanks for that post. i wonder if those multipliers will be different this time around. maybe that all get smaller uniformly maybe some change more quickly than others.
those are only historical numbers afterall!
.............
sher, when your competitors get wiped out, what typically happens to their shop equipment?
why are we repeating japan's mistakes?
because of poltiical fear of telling the truth to the citizenry.
the fix it number for the banks is between $4-8 trillion. obama and geithner are afraid to admit that.
hence we get half measures.
citi alone has $1.6 trillion in off balance sheet conduit crap that is priced at par and not worth 35 cents.
there's a triliion and change just for that.
BAC will require $500 billion and the list goes on.
just like japan we are dealing with the crisis with half measures
Hoopajoops LTD,
It gets auctioned off. We get fliers practically every day for another one.
Rusty doesn't mention that his bank is a recipient of taxpayer money.
He also doesn't discuss his own banks diversity, or lack thereof.
He is just tired of competing against the Capital One's of the world....(high deposit rates to fund high interest CC loans).
For those of you who have at least glimpsed a small portion of the universal land grab which is happening across the entire spectrum....take another step back for a wider view.
Does the country have sovereign rights over the big banks or do the big banks have sovereign rights over the government and taxpayers?
lawn grass | 02.16.09 - 3:10 pm | #
The problem has been that too many people were afraid even to ask the question.
The solution appears to be that ideas once thought unimaginable are now becoming mainstream in a matter of weeks.
He was just donning the beer goggles.
Eric | 02.16.09 - 3:36 pm | #
Have you seen the video and translations? He was like a bat without sonar.
YouTube -
0'00": We've had G7 meetings from last night, er, actually from today though, err, something like joint declaration has been issued.
0'18" Reporter: I'd like to ask about future manetary polical measures to President (of BOJ) SHIRAKAWA (next to nakagawa).
0'25" Nakagawa: W..What? Repeat it.
0'55":Reporter: In the discussion against the protectionism, what was you statement?
1'00":Nakagawa: We need to adopt the (domestic) budget for FY21 and related bills for FY20 budget as soon as possible.
1'31":Reporter: (The joint declaration was) far more practical one than before...
1'35":Nakagawa: Where!?
1'37":Reporter: Yes? Oh it's me. I'm sorry.
What kind of outfit typically auctions this stuff? Where do they advertise?
Right out of school I went to work for BAC. Back then it was restricted to operating in CA only. Gov would not let them expand to the point that they would become to big to fail. Guess the lobbying paid off and here we are.
an opinion piece over at the wall street journal by
Bradley Schiller (no relation) econ prof at whats-amatta-nevada U
where he claims the bulk of this economic catastrophe is obamas fear mongering
and goes on to contrast 2008 statistics against the depths of the great depression and the recession of 82
with the conclusion that our current financial / economic problem is not that big a deal
i wont voice an opinion because, well, you know... fair and balanced and all that shit
Bradley Schiller Says Barack Obama Should Stop Comparing Our Financial Crisis With the Great Depression - WSJ.com
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:38 pm | #
Take a look on Craigs List in any major metro area.
ex:http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/tls/1035307225.html
Former prime minister Tony Blair wins a $1m (£697,000) award for his leadership on the world stage.
Probably for being Bush's lap dog. He left UK is worse shape than Bush left America which is really atrocious.
daily bail writes:
because of poltiical fear of telling the truth to the citizenry.
Disagree. It's exactly like Japan, but the reason isn't the citizenry. It's because if it was seriously undertaken, people's golf buddies would go to jail, and too many of them are know very well where the bodies are buried and who took bribes from who.
When you need money, robbing a bank is one option. Today the US needs money, lots of it. The banks are China and the Near East. We can't rob China since they have the bomb, but the Near East is defenseless. So let's rob Arabia, the Emirates, Kuwait, and you name it. They couldn't retaliate. It would be like taking candy from a baby. Long live the US Empire to Be.
i was surprised the dems put it in the bill without the tacit support of the white house or at least a nod from rahn emmanuel.
daily bail | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:17 pm | #
I wasn't surprised at all by what they did. The people in Congress, especially Democrats who voted for TARP, have taken a lot of heat because of the way Paulson pissed away the first $350 billion.
Obama remains immune from that episode. Dodd and Frank don't.
Thanks Cut Bait.
Rewarding incompetence, greed, graft is disaster capitalism at its finest !
There are lots of auctioneers, some national, some local. We get notices for auctions all over the country. They advertise to other shops and manufacturing companies, particularly ones that have attended/participated in earlier auctions. Used to be you had to physically attend, but now many are conducted over the internet.
mock turtle
where he claims the bulk of this economic catastrophe is obamas fear mongering
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters
Listen, Rusty can I call you Rusty? Okay then, here's what you do:
You and all the other pipsqueak "community bankers" need to go to the money center banks C, BAC, JPMorgan, and the rest of the miserable eight and get yourself a line of credit of about a billion dollars, okay?
Then stuff as much of that money as possible into a bunch of envelopes marked "campaign contributions" and FedEx them to Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Chuck Schumer and the rest...
Voila! You are now the new power in banking here in the U.S. of A.
ades writes:
mock turtle,
"...i wonder if those multipliers will be different this time around. maybe all get smaller.. some change more quickly ,,,"
exactly
this isnt like any previous recession
with all the downsizing and outsourcing...not sure, as we turn the corner, if the jobs will be there for workers to come back to this time???
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters.
Yeah those people who lost their jobs are just whiners. They need to start living off their dividends and bond coupons. What's wrong with these no accounts?
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters
Anonymous | 02.16.09 - 3:46 pm | #
This is why the electorate needs to be lied to, always! If they know the truth their naive reactions will always make things worse... ONLY the elite should know! Why isn't there such a law....
km4 writes:
Former prime minister Tony Blair wins a $1m (£697,000) award for his leadership on the world stage
Thats going to come in handy when his pay check bounces.
o/t
Canadian manufacturing sales took their steepest tumble in at least 17 years in December, falling for a fifth straight month and capping off the worst period ever for auto trade with the United States.
Statistics Canada said Monday that December's 8.0 per cent decline to $44.2 billion, accelerating from November's 6.4 per cent pullback, was the largest monthly sag in manufacturing sales since the agency began compiling the data in the current form in January 1992.
Welcome to the world of Moral Hazard, where the worse you act, the more you prosper...
Barley writes:
Thats going to come in handy when his pay check bounces.
It's really done-good for him. How often do you see a rent boy make that kind of dough?
mp, dryfly, ac, a dozen others, here...
if your still here check out the video on the home page if you havent yet. its the swan and mr doom. mr. doom wants investment in real productive assets and human capital...
good stuff.
...........
Realistically - is there anybody in the US government today who is big enough to stand up to the big banks?
I say open the vault on the big banks and let each asset be auctioned to banks (certified) in the state where the asset resides bid only on the assets that reside in their state. unpackage them in to individual assets we may learn more of why this and where this fiasco blew up.... we will also get to see just how many times a single asset was leveraged.
Major auctioneers include Hilco Industrial, Myron Bowling Auctioneers, Perfection Plant Liquidation, and Cincinnati Industrial Auctioneers.
Broward Horne writes:
Let's be fair. Sebastian capitulated several months ago.
I thought he capitulated on the market. Today he capitulated on The Depression.
.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 2:57 pm | #
Not exactly accurate. Long story short he said because we are now in recession/depression he doesn't find any good info on the comment threads.
when your competitors get wiped out, what typically happens to their shop equipment?
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:38 pm | #
dryfly had a good story here a year or so ago about a fully operational machine shop located IIRC in Ohio that was available, together with it's century old building, for some ridiculously low amount I can't recall.
I expressed surprise because the numbers seemed unreasonably low and he replied that, once auto parts supply was gone, there were an abundance of shops in that area that no one was interested in buying.
I took that to me the decaying of America was more than just a financial meltdown. I'm sure he could supply the details I have forgotten.
Anonymous writes:
mock turtle
where he claims the bulk of this economic catastrophe is obamas fear mongering
That's the new right wing message. FOX news was all over it last night interviewing republican congress critters
if the democrats werent such a bunch of weannies and pussies
they should could say STFU or we will pull back all the tarp, (taxes to insitutions = to benefit received so far) with-hold the rest of the tarp (350 billion?) and no tax cuts, no tax increases and put a hold on all the stimulus except for food and shelter for the indigent and see who blinks first
i listen to right wing radio regularly and their outright lies are ugly
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
this guy, like that other wind bag, oreally, spews forth venomous attacks as a substitute for honest analysis
i realize the dems are often wrong..but they, we, dont need to lie to prove it when they are
Wally, yes, I AM big enough to stand up to the banks, the only thing holding me back is i am not IMPORTANT enough, nor carry enough clout, or i would go over with pink slips to them all...
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
Really , what a dope, everyone knows it was Hillary...
Break Up The Big Banks ?
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
The best run bank I ever saw (and had accounts with) had one branch. The bank president sat behind a plate glass window where he could keep one eye on everything that happened in the lobby. Decision making was almost instant. The lobby people knew almost everyone by their first name.
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 3:59 pm | #
Pretty sure that was Hillary.
or i would go over with pink slips to them all...
Fudge Juicy Airy Doodie
Or, you can simply pull your money out.
wally writes:
Realistically - is there anybody in the US government today who is big enough to stand up to the big banks?
Obama could do so very easily. He has plenty of troops and plenty of administrative machinery he could deploy to control them after he decapitated them. As mp is fond of pointing out, the US armed forces have quite a lot of bookkeeping involved. It'd suck for a minute, but I'd have a lot more confidence in a 19 year old supply clerk than the current crop of worthies.
The entire issue is one of political will. It could be over in a morning, except it won't be.
i put all the links i've found so far today into a squirrel if you guys want to see it. it's 15 articles at this point.
sqworl | The Daily Bail Financial News Round-Up Tuesday Feb. 17th
not much good news in there unfortunately.
wally writes:
Realistically - is there anybody in the US government today who is big enough to stand up to the big banks?
vote with your feet
take money out of band banks and save at your local institution (check rating first) or invest in "first mattresses"
mock turtle - The O team should pass a law that none on the stimulas can be spent in a district that voted for a R'
they should could say STFU or we will pull back all the tarp, (taxes to insitutions = to benefit received so far) with-hold the rest of the tarp (350 billion?)
Did you check the vote on the TARP? Most Repubs would welcome a pullback on TARP funds.
Drawing parallels to previous depressions is futile. Now, examining history's revolutions might yield some very good data to consider.
barley,
My money and my investments are out and have been for 2 years now...
investments in Asia figuring they rebound faster..
money in local credit union...
and in assets like boats, camper, boy toys, paid off of course..
Hal | 02.16.09 - 3:32 pm | #
Sher, you need to hang around and meet dryfly when he wanders in.
I like this guy. He's like the anti HGTV.
mock turtle writes:
take money out of band banks and save at your local institution (check rating first) or invest in "first mattresses"
That what I did. My spouse and I keep transactional money in our accounts. The rest is held elsewhere, outside the banking system.
I think this is much more effective than a tax revolt, because it puts the sword of leverage in your hands - just like every deposited dollar is loaned again and again, every withdrawn dollar has a multiplied effect.
reminds me of the early days when clinton took office and bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 3:59 pm | #
And when he was gov. of Ark. he killed those 3 boy by running them over with a train.
They couldn't retaliate. It would be like taking candy from a baby.
Hal | 02.16.09 - 3:44 pm | #
BRIC would say otherwise, I suspect. Especailly the RIC part.
"According to an estimate by outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas, layoffs in January totaled 241,749, up 45 percent from December and the highest monthly number in seven years"
delawareonline.com | Wilmington | The News Journal
Who needs banks when you have a perfectly good mattress?
That what I did. My spouse and I keep transactional money in our accounts. The rest is held elsewhere, outside the banking system.
The_Littlest_Mandarin | 02.16.09 - 4:09 pm | #
Where "outside the banking system"??
Curious,
Pitch
i know the hillary comments were snark
not being defensive
more to the point
in reviewing fosters suicide note
our illustrious walll street journal opinion page rises to the top of the cesspool again like a turd
from wiki
"Foster had difficulty making the transition to life and politics in Washington.[10] He found his involvement in vetting new presidential appointments during the transition period to be causing him depression and anxiety,[10] and he blamed himself for the failed Zoe Baird nomination.[10] The failed Kimba Wood and Lani Guinier appointments were also in his purview.[12]"
snip
"Days after the speech, the White House travel office controversy erupted.[3] Foster was the target of several hostile Wall Street Journal editorials in June and July 1993,[10] with titles such as "Who is Vincent Foster?"[9] He became quite upset over the travel office matter and the possibility of a congressional hearing[10] at which he may have been called to testify.[12] Disliking the public spotlight[9] and suffering from weight loss and insomnia,[10] he considered resigning his position but feared a personal humiliation upon returning to Arkansas.[10]
Wrestling with clinical depression, Foster was prescribed the mild sleeping aid/anti-anxiety pill Trazodone over the phone by his doctor, though he only had taken a few before he died. The next day, Foster was found dead in Fort Marcy Park, a federal park in Virginia. He was found with a gun in his hand and gunshot residue on that hand. An autopsy determined that he was shot in the mouth and no other wounds were found on his body. A suicide note of sorts, actually a draft of a resignation letter, was found torn into 27 pieces in his briefcase, a list of complaints specifically including, "The WSJ editors lie without consequence"[15] and lamenting, "I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport."
yes sport indeed
hmm. China's trying to buy another miner via debt purchases; I guess that's what dollar diversification will look like.
Comrade Terry,
Thanks...We machine shop folks need to stick together...although holding hands while going over a cliff is probably NOT a good idea....
Move over Arnold everyone needs a share...
TOPEKA, Kan. - Kansas has suspended income tax refunds and may not be able to pay employees on time, the state's budget director said Monday.
LAM, got a link for that?
bimbaugh surreptitiously but repeatedly insinuated and intimated that bill clinton killed vince foster
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 3:59 pm | #
He didn't ?!?
KS tax problem linkie:
Kansas suspends income tax refunds, may miss payroll - BostonHerald.com
Break up the big banks; sell little banks to bigger ones; denationalize; nationalize; Nationalize...
Play Humpty Dumpty all you want. We're still broke.
I thought there already a distributed model: credit unions?
Mind you I was that impressed that for all the prudential limits and safeguards mine still found ways to hook out the deposits into risky investments.
Then again, it was supposedly AA rated...
Hoocodanode!
C
TOPEKA, Kan. - Kansas has suspended income tax refunds
LAM | 02.16.09 - 4:15 pm | #
Link, please?
I'm going to bet Ireland is the next IMF client.
Barley,
"I'm going to bet Ireland is the next IMF client."
I'll drink to that.
Nostrovia,
PitchPole writes:
Where "outside the banking system"??
In secure undisclosed locations.
Make sure you spread it out. Gotta assume you'll have any given cache stolen or confiscated. If you don't have friends you can't park a few grand on, you don't have friends.
KS $$ problems link:
Kansas may delay tax refunds, paychecks | Archived Stories | Wichita Eagle
Clinton Says Don't Blame Him for the Economic Crisis
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Clinton ushered out the Glass-Steagall Act, which for decades had separated commercial and investment banking, and signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act - which exempted all derivatives, including the now-notorious credit-default swaps, from federal regulation.
Another in denial deluded assclown like entire GOP, Greenspin etc etc etc
"I think this is much more effective than a tax revolt, because it puts the sword of leverage in your hands - just like every deposited dollar is loaned again and again, every withdrawn dollar has a multiplied effect.
The_Littlest_Mandarin | 02.16.09 - 4:09 pm | # "
--me and my wife too
people think i joke when i talk about cash in a mayonnaise jar buried somewhere
ok its not out back and the jar wasn't mayonnaise
but beside cash on hand savings and some PMs
we took all our money out of two evil banks and then located 4 that were conservative, honest, and financially healthy institutions.
KS $$ problems link:
NYT is, like, "you have to pay $ for content, na-na-na-na-na!"
brushes9 | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:19 pm | #
Let's see how long that lasts. The dead tree edition can not compte with the online version, and the online version can not compete with the aggregators. The arguement that someone needs to pay for the NYT or WSJ or LAT to have a reporter in London, Dubai, and Hong Kong is undemined by the local news in those regions already reporting there.
Utill The NYT becomes and aggregator themselves, they are toast.
If you don't have friends you can't park a few grand on, you don't have friends.
The_Littlest_Mandarin
Money always changes relationships and when your hungry, its every person for themselves...
In secure undisclosed locations.
Why do I have this picture in my mind of fresh dirt piles all over your yard?
Hey Mock,
My high school newspaper said it was ordered by Hill through Chelsea's dad , not Bill Clinton but Webster Hubble, I think they were keying in on the gene's responsible from the DSL's...
But what do you expect from a haigh school rag...
Nothing is ever normal, nor as it seems here inside the DC diamond..
Clinton ushered out the Glass-Steagall Act
Clinton also signed Riegle-Neal in 1994, which allowed for interstate banking.
The best idea so far!
Any breakup should be transparent. We don't want all the banks being owned by couple of private capital types.
Here's a longer post I wrote last night:
HaloScan.com - Comments
Link, please?
Comrade Terry 02.16.09 - 4:18 pm
Kansas may delay tax refunds, paychecks | Archived Stories | Wichita Eagle
Not to mention that this is the worst-possible time for startup banks.
That's Ballgame Comrades | 02.16.09 - 2:42 pm | #
Not if you ask the investor groups who are always starting community banks across the country.
Chaos in the banking universe spells opportunity for a denovo. The cycle may be in the trough, but the groups are there as the number of banks shrink.
km4 wrote
"Clinton ushered out the Glass-Steagall Act, which for decades had separated commercial and investment banking, and signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act - which exempted all derivatives, including the now-notorious credit-default swaps, from federal regulation.
Another in denial deluded assclown like entire GOP, Greenspin etc etc etc
km4 | 02.16.09 - 4:20 pm | #
hey km4
not exactly right...yes clinton does bear some responsibility
but glass steagall had been gutted by administrative decisions long before gramm bliley act was passed by congress and signed by clinton
by the way...at tthe time clinton was being tried in the sentate for lieing about sex with monica etc..
that nov the senatee foted 92 to 2 with 6 abstentions for senator phill gramms de reg bill
now honestly do you think clinton or any other sane person is going to veto a senate bill while under trial pursuant to impeachment proceedings after a 92 to 2 vote???
Why do I have this picture in my mind of fresh dirt piles all over your yard?
Doesn't always mean buried treasure. You should have seen my yard after the dog got into the peanut brittle. That was one dirty sugar rush.
yes sport indeed
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 4:15 pm | #
Seriously, I posted about a week ago that this is 1993 all over again. For two brief years the Democrats controlled Congress and the White House. During that time all the Republicans did was lie and mock the incumbents. It's all they can do. They have no ideas of their own beyond tax cuts, passing out taxpayer money to their selected beneficiaries, and invading foreign countries. They will continue doing this for the next 21 months and hope to regain seats in Congress.
Remember, last time it resulted in the Contract With America and Clinton's presidency was derailed for the next 6 years.
For all those who think this is the fault of "both parties," wake up and smell the coffee.
Barley writes:
Money always changes relationships and when your hungry, its every person for themselves...
If you don't have people you can park a few grand on, you don't have people. For real for real. If you don't have relationships that tight, who will come bribe you out when the cops haul you off to Abu Ghraib for no reason? This is the absolute truth of existence in marginal conditions.
The young fir that falls and rots
Having neither needles nor bark,
So is the fate of the friendless man:
Why should he live long?
Man is a social animal. Find allies or you're meat for those who have them.
India's defence allocation grows by 35%!
"allocation has been increased because of the prevailing security environment, which has 'deteriorated considerably.'"
I wonder when the war is going to start...
Lawyers slavering in anticipation in Hong Kong for perfect storm:
- Bloomberg.com
Byz - is that what you meant by social/familial relations!?
C
Hillary's a financial genius. We should put our tax receipts with her broker and bet on cattle futures.
HÁVAMÁL
Listen to the wisdom of the All-High. This is the smartest stuff you will ever read about hard living.
Yea though I walk through the valley of ponies I shall reap no skittles for the banksters preceded me. Their CDS and cross-collateralization shall follow me and my children all the days of our lives.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 02.16.09 - 3:03 pm | #
LMFAO! Missed ya, Dawg.
Hillary's a financial genius. We should put our tax receipts with her broker and bet on cattle futures.
\t ;lkjlkjl;kl | 02.16.09 - 4:29 pm | #
We did. That's how we got here.
we took all our money out of two evil banks and then located 4 that were conservative, honest, and financially healthy institutions.
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 4:21 pm | #
Names, please?
This is the road to recovery.
California legislators tried and failed for a second day Sunday to close a $40 billion hole in the state's budget, still one Republican vote short of approving a package that contains $14.3 billion in tax increases.
State Sen. Abel Maldonado, a moderate Republican from Santa Maria, indicated in an interview with The Bee that he was willing to consider casting the decisive vote if he was satisfied with the final version of the tax proposal.
Comment Sacramento
Maldonado is absolutely correct. He is an inspiration! Our country is about to be destroyed by Congress and our new socialist president; California need not follow suit. Increasing taxes will send businesses and individuals away from our state. Then what? I guess we'd have to increase taxes even more so the remaining citizens can keep up with the rampant spending. We need to cut services deeply with no new taxes. Don't you get it? If we citizens are taxed to death, we won't spend. If we don't spend, we don't pay taxes. If we don't spend, businesses go broke. If businesses go broke, citizens don't work. If citizens don't work, there is less revenue and more dependence on government. With more people on assistance, more revenue (taxes) is needed. Eventually, there won't be enough tax payers to keep up with the need. That's when the voters will realize socialism doesn't work, but it will be too late. Cut the spending idiots.
Sorry no video link...
dryfly had a good story here a year or so ago about a fully operational machine shop located IIRC in Ohio that was available, together with it's century old building, for some ridiculously low amount I can't recall.
I expressed surprise because the numbers seemed unreasonably low and he replied that, once auto parts supply was gone, there were an abundance of shops in that area that no one was interested in buying.
sportsfan | 02.16.09 - 3:58 pm | #
I was part of the discussion but it was mp who 'found' the factory - something like $50K and it was yours, equipment office & building. Near Toledo or Detroit. Automotive 'support' industry - fixtures, tooling & jigs used on the production lines is what I figured a shop like that would do. Too small to do high volume production.
And there are more of those now - lots more - and even less interest in buying them. With scrap prices so low you have to pay to have the scrap hauled away - a lesson one of my friends learned when his little company kicked the bucket.
Any other cheerie things I can add?
This is the absolute truth of existence in marginal conditions.
The_Littlest_Mandarin | 02.16.09 - 4:27 pm | #
That is why we must avoid falling into marginal conditions.
sportsfan writes:
That is why we must avoid falling into marginal conditions.
LOL. Wish in one hand, etc.
Which filled up first?
dryfly,
"Any other cheerie things I can add?"
What's the weather like?
Nostrovia,
this is an idea that deserves much more distribution and exposure
dont allow the right wing media to bull shit you about responsibility for gutting glass steagall
the history is clear...clinton hammered the last nail,,there were about 40 nails hammered before
read it and weep
--- from frontline
In December 1986, the Federal Reserve Board, which has regulatory jurisdiction over banking, reinterprets Section 20 of the Glass-Steagall Act, which bars commercial banks from being "engaged principally" in securities business, deciding that banks can have up to 5 percent of gross revenues from investment banking business.
The Fed Board then permits Bankers Trust, a commercial bank, to engage in certain commercial paper (unsecured, short-term credit) transactions. In the Bankers Trust decision, the Board concludes that the phrase "engaged principally" in Section 20 allows banks to do a small amount of underwriting, so long as it does not become a large portion of revenue.
This is the first time the Fed reinterprets Section 20 to allow some previously prohibited activities.
In the spring of 1987, the Federal Reserve Board votes 3-2 in favor of easing regulations under Glass-Steagall Act, overriding the opposition of Chairman Paul Volcker.
The vote comes after the Fed Board hears proposals from Citicorp, J.P. Morgan and Bankers Trust advocating the loosening of Glass-Steagall restrictions to allow banks to handle several underwriting businesses, including commercial paper, municipal revenue bonds, and mortgage-backed securities.
Thomas Theobald, then vice chairman of Citicorp, argues that three "outside checks" on corporate misbehavior had emerged since 1933: "a very effective" SEC; knowledgeable investors, and "very sophisticated" rating agencies. Volcker is unconvinced, and expresses his fear that lenders will recklessly lower loan standards in pursuit of lucrative securities offerings and market bad loans to the public.
For many critics, it boiled down to the issue of two different cultures - a culture of risk which was the securities business, and a culture of protection of deposits which was the culture of banking.
In March 1987, the Fed approves an application by Chase Manhattan to engage in underwriting commercial paper, applying the same reasoning as in the 1986 Bankers Trust decision, and in April it issues an order outlining its rationale. While the Board remains sensitive to concerns about mixing commercial banking and underwriting, it states its belief that the original Congressional intent of "principally engaged" allowed for some securities activities.
The Fed also indicates that it will raise the limit from 5 percent to 10 percent of gross revenues at some point in the future. The Board believes the new reading of Section 20 will increase competition and lead to greater convenience and increased efficiency.
In August 1987, Alan Greenspan -- formerly a director of J.P. Morgan and a proponent of banking deregulation -- becomes chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. One reason Greenspan favors greater deregulation is to help U.S. banks compete with big foreign institutions.
1989-1990 Further loosening of Glass-Steagall In January 1989, the Fed Board approves an application by J.P. Morgan, Chase Manhattan, Bankers Trust, and Citicorp to expand the Glass-Steagall loophole to include dealing in debt and equity securities in addition to municipal securities and commercial paper.
This marks a large expansion of the activities considered permissible under Section 20, because the revenue limit for underwriting business is still at 5 percent. Later in 1989, the Board issues an order raising the limit to 10 percent of revenues, referring to the April 1987 order for its rationale.
Maldonado is absolutely correct. He is an inspiration! Our country is about to be destroyed by Congress and our new socialist president; California need not follow suit.
LAM | 02.16.09 - 4:33 pm | #
What? Who is saying this?
What's the weather like?
Comrade Misean is Dope | 02.16.09 - 4:35 pm | #
LOL - just like you'd expect in February up here - brownish gray frozen dirt/snow/dogshit mounds everywhere - just waiting to melt. Might get an inch of 'white' to night to hid it all - for a couple more weeks.
Plus I have the annual midwinter cold - snot nose and all. Just effing lovely.
I was part of the discussion but it was mp who 'found' the factory
dryfly | 02.16.09 - 4:33 pm | #
My apologies to mp for not attributing the story to him. I definitely recall, though, that you, dryfly, were not surprised at what was available for such a low price.
The Latest from Mish:
US, UK, Eurozone Banks Face Meltdown
Time to change my rating there, ac.
whats interesting in my long comment above is in the middle
8th para...volker is dead set against the weakening of rule 20 and glass steagall, but is brushed aside by the likes of greenspan
you know greenspan... hes the guy who said budget surpluses as far as the eye can see in congressional hearings circa 2002... and lowered rates to 1% for way over a year...yeah thats the guy
"It would take too long to recite all the actions that chipped away at Glass-Steagall but a few highlights stand out. In the mid-1980s a Federal Reserve Board stocked with Reagan-Bush appointees began reinterpreting Glass-Steagall in a series of actions that slowly expanded the ability of banks to engage in other financial operations. In 1990, the Fed, under former J.P. Morgan director Alan Greenspan, permitted guess whoJ.P. Morganto become the first bank allowed to underwrite securities. It is noteworthy that if William Jennings Bryan had had his way about the Federal Reserve Act, Greenspan would have never ascended to the position that allowed him to weaken the act named for the father of the Federal Reserve System.
Four legislative attempts were made to weaken or repeal parts of Glass-Steagall from 1988-1996. One reason they failed is because smaller banks feared that opening the doors to allow banks to trade in securities would lead to the domination of larger banksa fate that has come to pass. The biggest change came in 1996 when Alan Greenspan issued a ruling allowing bank investment affiliates to have up to a quarter of their business in investments."
Much more and in great detail:
» Bill Clinton, Glass-Steagall and the Current Financial and Mortgage Crisis, Part Two of an InDepth Investigative Report
dryfly,
Well, I got the same damned cold...and it's pouring rain...
Nostrovia,
Wyndham Worldwide Corp., the largest seller of timeshare vacation units, is withdrawing plans to sell as much as $200 million in shares, citing investors strongly negative reaction.
Hoooocooodonoed?
Feckless Ness | 02.16.09 - 4:26 pm | #
LOL - you gotz feck!
Who needs banks when you have a perfectly good mattress?
Outsider | 02.16.09 - 4:14 pm | #
With interest rates this low, why not?
JP posted:
KS $$ problems link:
404 | Wichita Eagle 701750.html
When I found the bad link, I started poking around to see if I could find it mentioned somewhere else, and stumbled across this gem:
404 | Wichita Eagle
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right.
Sebastia
My apologies to mp for not attributing the story to him. I definitely recall, though, that you, dryfly, were not surprised at what was available for such a low price.
sportsfan | 02.16.09 - 4:41 pm | #
Unfortunately not.
Hmmm 65 and Sunny here in Florida...I haven't been sick in over two years now save some minor allergies to pollen. I'm not sure why I don't get more colds and such handling money daily but for some reason the climate here seems to agree with me. You two get somebody to make you a nice pot of homemade chicken soup. Have them add a can of Rotel Diced tomatoes with chilis. It'll have you feeling better in no time.
mock turtle, you seem to have endless resources available to support your positions.
popeye, that was a good summary and link also.
Perhaps the internet will make it more difficult than it was in the past to rewrite history in such a way as to remove the blame from where it squarely belongs.
I guess I still have some hope . . . or is that just a wish in one hand . . . .will find out when the future arrives.
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right.
What do your insides tell you, Sebastian?
What do your insides tell you, Sebastian?
Feckless Ness | 02.16.09 - 4:49 pm | #
Trust your feelings, Luke.
get somebody to make you a nice pot of homemade chicken soup
And stay away from Japanese cold medicine.
Trust your feelings, Luke.
Eric | 02.16.09 - 4:50 pm | #
That doesn't work for everybody, E. It can be useful to understand your strategy for decision-making, particularly if you want to change to a more effective strategy.
I fear the banking cartel. They are more powerful than standing armies.
They will do something incredibly stupid on their part in order to maintain their rule over the world.
They must be seized secretly, silently, and without warning before they have a chance to make their move. They must not be allowed to chose another country of primary operation. It is imperative that the lines of communication stay open. Downed satellite systems must not become an impediment to our monitoring of their operations. You have no idea what they are capable of.
I really wish the housing bears would get their stories straight. Is this a housing bust or not? Is Case-Shiller right or not? If I'm going to be a bear, I'd at least like to be right.
Sebastian | 02.16.09 - 4:47 pm | #
Did you read the article, or are you suddenly a believer of NAR stats?
It can be useful to understand your strategy for decision-making, particularly if you want to change to a more effective strategy.
Feckless Ness | 02.16.09 - 4:54 pm | #
Or it could just be a throw-away clip from "Star Wars".
popeye
excellent link you posted on glass-steagall and gramm-bliley act.
very fair, gives clinton an appropriate level of blame and shows the historical wickedness of the banksters like Sandy Weill and several others,some on the left like rubin, and the we dont need no stinkin regulation types on the right like greenspan and phill gramm
ie. There was no CS data.
Space Balls, actually.
"Monocropper dependent on Green Revolution techniques for sure."
Never let anyone talk you out of planting a garden.
sportsfan
thanks for the recognition that i try to dig deep into the bag of facts
i maintain folders on the computer desktop with links and citations every time i engage in a debate
when i learn im wrong about something, i add the other guys arguments to the appropriate folder and change my opinio
sportsfan writes:
Perhaps the internet will make it more difficult than it was in the past to rewrite history in such a way as to remove the blame from where it squarely belongs.
Same source:
Anyone who thinks the repeal of Glass-Steagall was forced on an unwilling Bill Clinton need only read Rubins testimony.
The banking industry is fundamentally different from what it was two decades ago, let alone in 1933. He said the industry has been transformed into a global business of facilitating capital formation through diverse new products, services and markets. U.S. banks generally engage in a broader range of securities activities abroad than is permitted domestically, said the Treasury secretary. Even domestically, the separation of investment banking and commercial banking envisioned by Glass-Steagall has eroded significantly.
If new, regional, smaller banks are the hot thing going forward, then I guess Meredith Whitney was correct a month ago:..(Ps: why do I troll these blogs..to find out what the sheeple will do, and call original?)...
Video - CNBC.com
when i learn im wrong about something, i add the other guys arguments to the appropriate folder and change my opinion
mock turtle | 02.16.09 - 5:00 pm | #
Congratulations. The ability to change one's opinion is the sign of a strong mind.
And deregulation of the FDA (1997) and Telecommunications (1996) were both forced upon Clinton as well?
mock turtle,
99% of financial innovation is a sham. Adding more $$$ to an existing pool of goods is wealth destruction, not wealth creation.
This financial mess was an inside job.
America was looted by the banksters.
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Let's not confuse Bill Clinton with Liberals. Bill was always a corporatist, so is his wife. I am a Liberal and I hate both of them with a white hot passion.
Shedlock:
"Conceivably a framework for a new transatlantic or even global currency could come out of such a meltdown."
Not without entirely new international political arrangements.
So house prices are going up in Kansas, but the State is broke?
I guess no rioting in Cali until the rain turns off.
It's gorgeous here in Merritt Island.
popeye
presure on clinton?
from the article you cited
"So why did Weill call Clinton, and what did Clinton do? One take comes from a National Housing Institute article by Malcolm Bush and Katy Jacob.
In an unusual move, the three key Republican Chairmen bypassed the usual conference committee debates by writing a final compromise themselves. That bills CRA provisions resembled the original Senate bill. (House Banking Committee Chairman Jim Leach had fought in the House for a bipartisan bill with no anti-CRA measures while Senate Banking Chair Phil Gramm had insisted on the Senates anti-CRA provisions.)
At this point, tremendous pressure was exerted on the Clinton Administration, which had earlier threatened to veto the Senate version, to sign the legislation, and intense negotiations continued over community reinvestment and consumer privacy provisions."
"final compromise"
consider this
during "negotiations" clinton was being impeached in the house and soon after was tried in the senate
(imagine this)
mr president you sure could use some friendly votes in the senate if you know what i mean
i guess it was just lucky that monica saved that stained blue dress
-- i dont exonerate clinton at all
but
to place even half the blame on him is bs...there weree a host of actors going back to reagan appointees etc
"i was surprised the dems put it in the bill without the tacit support of the white house or at least a nod from rahn emmanuel."
.......like who reads a spending bill before voting on it?
"last time it resulted in the Contract With America...."
....what were the provisions of that again?
Anyone who thinks the repeal of Glass-Steagall was forced on an unwilling Bill Clinton need only read Rubin's testimony.
Popeye | 02.16.09 - 5:00 pm | #
He was in the mix for sure. But, you know, that was about the same time that he authorized the launch of dozens of cruise missiles in an attempt to kill bin Laden, for which he was immediately criticized for trying to 'Wag the Dog,' as the movie of the same name had shown, instead of answering important accusations that he should be removed from office amid questions about exactly how many BJs he had received while in office.
His successor, though, played it cool, hanging out in Texas for a month long vacation, and ignoring the national security reports predicting an attack within the United States, before returning to work the week before 9/11.
There are the kind of lapses in judgment that we all make at one time or another . . . and then there are colossal blunders.
From the St. Louis Fed in 2006.
'Is the United States Bankrupt'
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/06/07/Kotlikoff.pdf
yep.
It's good to see that some people are taking on the agenda of the internationalist Jews who want to centralize all financial/economic power under their sole control.
So, the causes of the world's financial woes are the interstate banking and financial services holding company legislation passed by the U.S. Congress! Folks who subscribe to this thesis should be teaching Econ 101, where everything is made simple and clear for freshmen eyes and ears.
I'm left wondering why people like Michael J. Panzner bothered to write intricate tomes about the multiple dangers confronting the financial system when it was obvious there were only two contributing causes? Poor fellow. He wasted a lot of time.
If I remember correctly, the Contract With America consisted of:
* require all laws that apply to the rest of the country also apply to Congress;
* select a major, independent auditing firm to conduct a comprehensive audit of Congress for waste, fraud or abuse;
* cut the number of House committees, and cut committee staff by one-third;
* limit the terms of all committee chairs;
* ban the casting of proxy votes in committee;
* require committee meetings to be open to the public;
* require a three-fifths majority vote to pass a tax increase;
* and implement a zero base-line budgeting process for the annual Federal Budget.
What the He** could anyone argue about with these points? Jeeminy.
mp writes:
Conjure says, "Seize the banks. Do it now."
"Now, dammit. Now."
Conjure, MP! So glad to see you haven't altogether disappeared!
Yes, indeed...time for the Economic Aristocracy to feel a taste of the guillotine.
It is time to seize the banks...they're zombies anyway, and we have a right to protect ourselves from brain (and wallet) eating zombies.
Absolutely no snark intended...the hyperbole really isn't too much over the top.
Rusty Cloutier for President.
and there's this one for the gold bugs about US debt default and dollar collapse.
Midas Letter - U.S. Debt Default, Dollar Collapse
midas letter
Black Star Ranch(Good) writes:
"If I remember correctly, the Contract With America consisted of:
...
What the He** could anyone argue about with these points? Jeeminy."
Fox, chicken, henhouse.
"NC Jim writes:
It seems the problems started when the ban on interstate banking was lifted and the ego driven M&A mania started.
I liked Wachovia as a conservative NC bank, Worked fine for generations.
Jim
NC Jim | 02.16.09 - 2:43 pm | #"
LOL. i remember in undergrad as an econ major taking my first banking class, this bank was brought up and the teacher smirked and called it a quaint, conservative local bank.
Black Star Ranch,
In my prior post replace "Contract With America" with "Republican electoral sweeps in the 1994 midterm elections."
As someone who's whole household income (aside from stock market gambling) is based on real estate investment, I would warn people not to capitulate so soon.
This has just begun. The time for saying "game over" is a ways off. If you've already reached that point, you weren't really playing, but just another gambler at the table.
Or, I guess, you could make plans to move in with Uncle Sebastian. I'm sure the conversation would be enlightening.
sebastian - from your silver lining story:
Just 19 of 153 metropolitan areas gained or were flat. The rest had a loss, pushing the country as a whole to a 12.1 percent loss.
read it
Marc Faber - the Best Stimulus Plan is to Cut Government in Half... read at Cliff Küle’s Notes: Best Stimulus - Cut Government By Half
Umm, are investors staying on the sidelines and avoiding investing in the large banks because of fears of nationalization, or is it BECAUSE THEY ARE INSOLVENT?
Would love to hear views on this.
Not sure that I buy the argument that talk of nationalization is the barrier here. It's a pretty obvious yellow light to any investor--that is if they can't see molten, mangled wreckage when its blocking the road in front of them.
But I am not a banking expert. Please advise.
brushes9 writes:
If new, regional, smaller banks are the hot thing going forward, then I guess Meredith Whitney was correct a month ago:..(Ps: why do I troll these blogs..to find out what the sheeple will do, and call original?)...
I want my six minutes back! There is nothing in that CNBC analyst rant that correlates to discussion of breaking up the 'too big to fail' Banks. Few, if any (I haven't read every post in this thread), think the idea to break up the TBF Banks is original.
The goal of the major banks is to put the little guys out of business so just a few large banks run it all....the same large banks that own the Federal Reserve (JPMorgan-Chase, Bank of America and Citicorp)
mp writes:
Conjure says, "Seize the banks. Do it now."
"Now, dammit. Now."
Then what do we do with this little bankrupt insolvent banana republic?
Rob Dawg: Too late. Hippocratic Oath isn't even required in medical schools anymore.
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