Given a few common hardware store items such as a tarp and some pvc pipe poles, most GM/Chrysler products can house a family of 3. These companies are now viable again and I'm a genius.

OOOOOO...turn around in the third half is IN!

Nostrovia,

TCA, I just closed my treasury money market account with vanguard. I'm going to just open up new accounts at local banks as I cross over the 250k limit. Is there some reason you'd rather do T-MM than banks?

cr writes: However, I think the Chrysler plan is a joke and my guess is a bankruptcy is imminent.

## Politically, Chrysler is at risk because they went private and left the country. So, joke of a plan and that combined, BK for Chrysler. Nobody liked them, even when we were friends.

\tTCA, I just closed my treasury money market account with vanguard. I'm going to just open up new accounts at local banks as I cross over the 250k limit. Is there some reason you'd rather do T-MM than banks?
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 7:27 pm | #

It's my IRA.  I don't want to take a 40% tax hit to pull it out.

Their estimates are from outer space. They are doomed, time to BK them!

This has been gnawing at my brain lately.

Shipping costs by sea are up.
Commodities are expected to rise because of the China and US stimulus.

yet

BDI is down, as is commoditiy prices.
Rail is down.

so

Any plans of the stimulus making magic - something that everyone wants to believe in - the data says no?

so

The car industry is going to continue to get hammered

hence

GM is way to optimistic

CR,

Are you actually suggesting we should loan GM a total of 30 Billion dollars?

Sure we may need to replace vehicles out there...my 1997 Honda CRV included.

But there is no way in hell I would by a GM and no way am I going to by another petro eating only machine.

I will hang onto the Honda CRV and replace and pay in cash a very good hybrid or an all electric car.

Which brings up another point. Who is going to loan to buy all the required sales of GM cars just so these jokers can actually pay us back? GMAC? Seriously?

\tWatching Kudlow, Bob Dahl from Blackrock says buy and dollar cost average....

What an idiot!
8 Ball | 02.17.09 - 7:31 pm | #

If he told everyone to sell and sit in cash for the next five years how would he steal your money?

"Their estimates are from outer space."

Are you picking up the feed too?
..............

Nope, got the super duper tin foil hat on. My cat told me!

"Isn't Obama just going to transfer the legacy health care and pension obligations to the Federal government and go from there?
"

Yet another path by which guaranteed national health care will arrive.

Don't even bother to doubt. It's a lock, one way or another.

While I never have been curious about their business models, I don't get it. They want to close the Saturn, while it might have been the most promising line.
I mean, eventually the price for oil will climb up and who the hell would want to buy .. "like a rock?"

Does America want an iconic auto industry now? Y or N. Its simple.

'Yes' at any cost is a dumb answer. 'No' is a dumb answer.

--
No comments on "Printing Money" for few hours? I hope that these people are still around.

The Zimbabwe School of Economics by Marc Faber:
YouTube - Marc Faber "U S will default on debt or enter hyperinflation" 02-05-09

In this video Marc Faber, Dr Doomed, comes across as a moron with zero understanding of the Anglo-American econo-political system. Of course, he knows his customers, or audience—“Printing Money” inflation dopes (PMIDs) and America is full of such dopes. “Printing Money” in the US is a myth. What is going on is nothing more than rearrangement of debt, or swap of one form of debt with another. But, that is too sophisticated for someone with an economic IQ of a moron.

This moron has been trashing the US Treasury bonds for several years now and what we have now in the US if deflation and USTs have soared rather than being worthless. He doesn’t understand that soon the real Fed Funds Rate (RFFR) would be positive as YoY inflation rate goes below zero and, worse yet, the nominal GDP goes negative, YoY, at the end of 2009Q2 (it already was during 2008Q4, on a quarterly basis). Propagandists have a field day in a world full of dopes and there are no more disgusting American dopes than PMIDs. I have to deal with them almost on a daily basis.

The moron made a promise to Intel employees few weeks ago, during a visit to an Intel facility, that INTC will out-perform the US Treasuries in the next 5 years and later he changed it to 5-10 years and also included many other US tech Scams. This moron does not understand Deflationary Depression.

Jas

There is one sure way to save GM & Chrysler:

They both need to become Bank Holding Companies ASAP.

10-year yield dips a few bps and Jas comes out of the woodwork.

Too predictable.

TCA writes:
Anybody know of a good Treasury money market account that is open to new investors?

You might consider one of the Agency money market funds like VMFXX. It is 99% agency so in theory is as safe as Treasuries.

The questions:

If current buyers of new cars can almost always get another year or two out of their vehicles in a pinch, and current buyers of used cars (which DO reach end-of-life) are in no position to buy new, why is current level of sales 'unsustainable'?

If Chrysler goes BK, can GM's supply chain survive? A lot of them are borderline right now WITH Chrysler's business.

How the heck is GM going to sell Saturn, Saab and (to a lesser extent) Hummer, now that they've integrated the parts with their other brands. Who'd buy a brand with Delco under the hood and dependant on Delco's continuing solvency?

Ok, it frets me just a tad as a Canadian to say this, but 'America' is a brand name. 'WE' cannot afford to lose the jobs. Ergo, we must buy the brand. Honda will be fine..Toyota too.

I checked KD's site. We are ok for awhile. I already miss the excitement.

Santander's Banif Fund Suspends Payments

link: Santander's Banif Fund Suspends Payments

If you watch that TED talk  that EHP posted in the prior thread and look at the fast developing robotic capabilities then making these decision becomes a lot more complex.  We as a society will have to decide what jobs we want to retain, not primarily based on economic efficiency but simply based on societal good. 

Decision making is getting much more complex.  Old value sticks are becoming quickly obsolete.

This is an early but very interesting test case for the medium term future..

--
Automobile industry is by far the most globalized industry and we know how best born-and-bred American dopes led by Crooks can compete. Sorry, no excuses. Everything in the US economy should be looked at, or analyzed, with the proper backdrop: An Evil Government, Rogue Economists and a Thoroughly Doped Population.

Then everything falls into place. I get daily confirmations of the above backdrop. Don't you? The process that created the backdrop is irreversible because dopes feed on each other and the Crooks watch with reassurance.

Jas

Chrysler goes under the bus. Sophie's choice.

Obviously a quiet, reasonable 'let them die' is not getting through. Very well.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.
.

Comrade Kristina --

I worked all day, can somebody summarize the few thousand comments I missed today?

Most of them were about you, actually.

GM might be viable with just Chevrolet and Cadillac (might even let Cadillac go). Chevrolet could do a DX, LX and EX model. Apparently Pontiac and Saturn get the Axe; The 'GM' brand is nothing more than a re-badged Chevrolet, so it needs to go. Bankruptcy is best for them, because it will allow them to shed their debt. They have offered buyouts to every hourly employee, and they will start hiring after they are reorganized. GM's arguments against bankruptcy are weak.

CK,

A bunch of stuff teetered on bankruptcy. There was some cliff diving. People got mad at Jas.

Nades got a first.

I pretty much know all the alts.

Nostrovia,

If GM and Chrysler go under and cause some suppliers to go under, it would seem like a perfect opportunity for private equity to step in to support the suppliers that Ford, Toyota, etc, still use.

Now for the overnight fun!
Eric | 02.17.09 - 7:55 pm | #
-----
Indeed!  I'm starting to get bored unless something kicks in soon.

Nikkei futures are down (Yeah!)
Hang Seng futures are down (Yeah!)
Europe appears to be a sea of red (Yeah!)

US Indices are all Kermit (Whaa?)

If you want to see the median age of cars/trucks/light trucks

Keep in mind that is the median and as the unsustainable/unaffordable credit binging on cars happened, it skewed the distribution to the short end.

If you adjust for suburban realtor mom and Circuit city manager dad buying each of her kids 2 cars from their HELOC; that is unaffordable should never have been sold -- the median age drops off to 12.1 years

Given the standard huge warranties offered now, it's fair to assume that quality is not going to decline any time soon to reduce the median age of autos.

Jobs:Auto sales is the way to go
At the end of the day there either has to be future or past income from participating in the labor force to pay for it. From that base you can adjust for rural/urban, or expected used lifetime of an auto

Looking at licensed drivers is wrong, looking at implicit sales required to maintain fleet size relative to population or maintain fleet age is wrong

You cannot assume sales return to recent levels unless you understand the chain of events that produced the cash to fund the sale

Heck if you want an off the wall comparison, look at what different types of farmers need to buy a new truck in terms of the goods they produce

If you're happy with the what once was, will be line of logic -- then you might as well get on board the $1mn average national house price and Dow 36,000 by 2020 bandwago

gpblank,

Correct. That will be $5 Billion please.

They're both one big ponzi scheme ...

OT but the Bank of America goof of the day.

"For any other aborted business trip, it would be a reasonable request. But Bank of America has been obliged to apologise for asking 23 staff to refund fares for the US Airways flight which splash-landed in New York's Hudson River.

The bank's employees were travelling to the firm's corporate headquarters in Charlotte, North Carolina, when US Airways flight 1549 dramatically ditched off Manhattan last month."
from the Guardian.

and in the last post I meant to highlight the comment of "the current rate of sales being unsustainable" instead of the ray of sunshine (relative to the rest of the economy, prices are being cut and the USD has appreciated while gas has gone down... doesn't bode well for automaker profitability though). Last time I looked at the data, 10.5mn annual sales is a sustainable number for full employment and the present demographics. If you're hoping for 15.3mn annual sales within 5 years as the worst case scenario, you better darn well catch a Leprechaun quickly

If you want to see the median age of cars/trucks/light trucks

Keep in mind that is the median and as the unsustainable/unaffordable credit binging on cars happened, it skewed the distribution to the short end.

If you adjust for suburban realtor mom and Circuit city manager dad buying each of her kids 2 cars from their HELOC; that is unaffordable should never have been sold -- the median age drops off to 12.1 years

Given the standard huge warranties offered now, it's fair to assume that quality is not going to decline any time soon to reduce the median age of autos.

Jobs:Auto sales is the way to go
At the end of the day there either has to be future or past income from participating in the labor force to pay for it. From that base you can adjust for rural/urban, or expected used lifetime of an auto

Looking at licensed drivers is wrong, looking at implicit sales required to maintain fleet size relative to population or maintain fleet age is wrong

You cannot assume sales return to recent levels unless you understand the chain of events that produced the cash to fund the sale

Heck if you want an off the wall comparison, look at what different types of farmers need to buy a new truck in terms of the goods they produce

If you're happy with the what once was, will be line of logic -- then you might as well get on board the $1mn average national house price and Dow 36,000 by 2020 bandwago

--
Nemo,

Jas won the Triple crown today -- GOLD, USTs and the Scam Market.

I am still up 23% in USTs (not including T-Bills that are cash equivalent) since the beginning of November 2008. Not too shabby, eh?

Jas

US Indices are all Kermit (Whaa?)
yagij | 02.17.09 - 7:59 pm | #

I wasn't watching closely, but I'm guessing they closed the futures in the hole, so the small green now is just getting that back.

==
"I am pretty sure I despise them both. Is that wrong?"

Nemo,

Bravo! I despise Crook Gross because he is a Merchant of Debt, which is as bad as Merchant of Deaths.

Jas

The popular idea that complex supply chains & products adjust "automagically" will be sorely tested.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 8:03 pm | #

And a risky bet it will be.  If I read the tea leaves correctly then we are closing in on a downward spiral.  Lots of unintended casualties that do not fit the standard Adam Smith issue manual.

Rail is down.
nova | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 7:30 pm | #

 Relative of a coworker was just laid off this week - a train conductor, due to freight dropoffs.

If people are concerned with auto company BKs bringing down the supply chain, the feds should establish a auto chain lending facility that will provide emergency short-term or DIP financing to any business essential to a viable nameplate. I suspect the money amounts would be small compared to what gets tossed around routinely these days.

I hate what martinis do to my grammar..

--
"There were a whole lot of sad faces at the bar today as they watched their 401K's get abused..."

Comrade Kristina,

Scam Lovers cry for abuse! They are bona fide born-and-bred American dopes and they must get their proper due.

A Scam Hater and loving it,

Jas

lol scone, love that song...
Comrade Kristina
.
Guess I should have attributed it, wouldn't want the all-powerful record industry after my ass.

If i were running GM, we would be in Bolleywood shooting movies like Bullet updated.

Walking along the scenic C&O Canal in the weekend it struck me that we need a completely new approach to infrastructure, one that will employ millions of humans and machines, throughout the value chain, from designers, architects, appraisers, economists, and engineers of many varieties and involve trillions of dollars in stimulus for not only the infrastructure but every related industry/conversion, and new industries that inevitably arise just as the invisible hand works its magic:

AN INTERSTATE CANAL NETWORK!
PERSONAL SUBMARINES, LIKE ON STINGRAY!

That's gotta be shovel-ready.

Just think: no more swathes of concrete blighting the land, freeways raised and arching over the nation's cities and rivers, car pollution, congestion (well, if it was wide and deep enough you could vertical stacks of lanes not just horizontal ones - imagine the volume).

And the cross-over to municipal lite-canal is just compelling.

The Age of Aqueosity is At Hand!

C

A Scam Hater and loving it,

Jas
Jas Jain | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 8:16 pm

Some of them I truly feel for, others I take secret glee in watching their retirement dissolve before their eyes. Mostly the ones that were trying to convince me that the market was dropping because of the stimulus bill dropping...I got a good chuckle out of that one...if they only knew they'd probably kill themselves...

--
"I hate what martinis do to my grammar."

KR,

Try Cognac! That is what I just poured for myself.

Cheers!

Jas

Did anyone ever figure out what happened last night with the Asian markets and Denningers wig out?

There was a big currency shift, probably responsible for today's crash.

Well yeah Hoops, we knew that last night, but did anyone figure out why?

Uh oh, there's a big Swedish flag on drudge.

Ruh roh, did I just get my reason?

I went through the FT today and saw that a korean bank tapped a national fund in its country which I hypothecate could have just been a currency basket... but who knows.

I could really use a Swedish model myself right about now.

bobn,
They don't sell the explorer in Europe.

The Edge is sold in the US and Europe.
$26,000 MSRP in the US
~$40,000 MSRP in Europe

You still want the European model?

Comrade Kristina writes:
Did anyone ever figure out what happened last night with the Asian markets and Denningers wig out?

You nailed it. He wigged out. Too funny.

and Denningers wig out?
Comrade Kristina | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 8:21 pm | #

That's his schtick.   Move along, nothing to see here.

But he had atomic bomb footage!!! I thought we were going to be into cannibalism today, running through the streets like wild animals, smashing things, and howling wordlessly in shock rage and confusion... hell I even shot my entire family in preparation. How could Denniger mislead me so?

--
"23% of nothing is what?"

Bornen Bredd,

And you are lookin'! Dopes love to reveal themselves.

Jas

hell I even shot my entire family in preparation
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 8:28 pm | #

Well, you're set for food for a bit, at least.

Have a car chase sequence like that in India...I take it you have never been to India. Sure they could clar the streets to shoot it, but it would not look like india to any Indian, unless maybe it were in a dream sequence
Dirk | 02.17.09 - 8:25 pm | #

I've unintentionally been in a few auto rickshaw races in India.  They were quite exciting and would have satisfied any movie addict...

--
Evildoer Greenspan: "More money is need"!

How about giving all your money, you evildoer?

You should be nailed to the cross live with 1000s of video cameras broadcasting live worldwide. Then, there may be some hope for America because then the Crooks will run for their lives. I don't expect that; hence, no hope for America’s better future. Please don’t give me the BS about the American People being very resourceful and all. They are irremediable dopes and evildoers are running wild.

Jas

If anyone is waiting for the government to stick it to Pimco and Gross you are going to be waiting for a long time. Pimco is probably the biggest buyer of treasuries (used as collateral for derivatives) in the world. They get pissed and they threaten to use cash as collateral, they get what they want from Timmy and they use UST's

Maybe they should do Vancouver now. something like 10 gangland shootings in as many days... its way out of hand. I ran a business there in the toughest block, i know what out of hand is. Its out of hand.
KR
.
Are we talking Canada, or Washington state? I'm guessing the Highlands.

I worked all day, can somebody summarize the few thousand comments I missed today?
Comrade Kristina | Homepage | 02.17.09 - 7:51 pm | #

Chrysler must die.  GM must die.

We're fucked.

And you think the governments bureaucrats are more capable to run these companies ?
Good luck !
Werner | 02.17.09 - 8:42 pm

You mean more capable than the bozos that created exotic financial instruments that would ultimately destroy the entire World's economy? Uhm yeah...

CR,
Thanks for the post I guess.

Still if you didn't read my rant, you might want to look at my mention of how the recent credit binge skewed the fleet age distribution so as to lower the median age beyond that of a fleet represented by real demand.

Secondary justsification of that point is the growth in the usable lifetime of a car, versus the growth in median age. Credit accounts for the discrepancy

It's one of the easiest things to model if you take historical sales, and impute an average lifetime from the time of sale.

Just because there has been a long deviation from real demand, doesn't mean it will restore itself and last forever.

Once again, the current sales are as expected by me. According to your model, they are pure insanity and unexpected.

It's not about there being a single equilibrium sales amount or a price. It's about what is the feasible range, and the sustainable centerline.

If you think I'm crazy, the best way to do it is by justifying 'productivity' increases in the economy from a bottom up basis since 1980.

People have mentioned the reasons cars may go a long time without replacement - older cars are rarely used spares, repair is almost always an option, and even the lousiest cars today are pretty good by historical standards. I will add the anecdotal observation that I know almost nobody who will need a new car in the next 2 years.

My take is that the average car could easily be kept on the road for another 2 years, resulting in a median car age increase of about 1 year. That would produce a 1 year shortfall in car replacement. So if the replacement rate is 12.5M/per year we could stay at 10M for FIVE years, without any significant quality of life impairment for drivers. I think 10M for five years is the minimum for a "stress test" of car company survival and a restructuring plan that couldn't handle that should be rejected.

The revenge of the SUV is at a dealership near you.
anon | 02.17.09 - 8:44 pm | #

I posted this last week but it is worth of a repost considering the topic. Several dealers in the area are running ads for Jeep Grand Cherokees for $16,999. That's 48% off of MSRP for a 2009 and it can be had with 0% Financing for 5 years.

Westbury Jeep Chrysler Dodge | New Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep dealership in Jericho, NY 11753

How long can they sell cars for 50% off and remain alive?

So, after taking the country from a $5.6 trillion surplus to a $1.2 trillion deficit, the GOP all of a sudden says no more stimulus ( unless it lines their crooked pockets ).

Also no more bailout money for GM or Chrysler, the crooked banks, tax cuts for the rich, and so on....

Obama just nationalize and get as much of a clean slate as possible or else your 4 yrs will be hell !

Wow, Asia tanking in early trading:

Ah, excellent, I'll have to find a way to deceptively graph that to Obama signing the Stimulus Bill.

People have cause-n-effect reversed. The financial derivatives were a function of debt growth, not vice versa.
.

Greenspan chimes in with his advice for recovery.

Greenspan Says U.S. May Not Be Doing Enough to Promote Recovery - Bloomberg.com

Screw Cerberus. Top Gear had this little bug on last night. 160hp pocket rocket. Serious speed and handling, and not cop bait:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/27/160hp-fiat-500-abarth-ss-to-follow-in-november/

Thaksin,
Chrysler does not take Cerberus down. Each of their ventures is separated, and the only people directly exposed are the ones who specifically contributed to get a piece of the action.

Would trigger CDS if went into bankruptcy. Can't imagine it being too eventful given how well the much larger ones were handled (and non-ISDA settlement hidden)

Chrysler has been even more poorly run since the takeover, so it shouldn't be any surprise.

Biggest question would be what happens to former Chrysler assets, joint venture productions, and all the employee obligations

Best solution IMO would be a French national champion cobbling together. Government induced merger of Ford and GM, along with free passage from any dealer brand obligations (it's not so simple as doing away with Saturn, dealers have contracts enforceable that can only be broken by bankruptcy as it stands... and no one is buying that problem off GM)

So, after taking the country from a $5.6 trillion surplus

There was never a surplus. Under Clinton, the national debt grew from $4.1 trillion to $5.7 trillion.

You aren't "paying down your credit card" if your balance is higher at the end of each month.

Now handing off thread to Jas for perfunctory rant about "born and bred dopes".

--
Born-and-bred American dopes don't know that Adam Smith firmly believed that you need a moral basis, or mooring, for a successful economic system.

Hayek also believed in ethics, politics and economics as basis of a prosperous society. Hayek's big failing was that he took ethics for granted. Serious blind spot in his free-market theology. Ethics are anything but given and that is why born-and-bred American dopes must suffer for allowing evildoers to take control of the econo-political system by manipulating morality and replacing it with amorality. One of the greatest Greek thinkers, before Socrates, was Protagoras, labeled a sophist. Labeling Protagoras as sophist and Plato as philosopher is part of the brainwashing, or prejudice. Protagoras is famous for: Man is measure of all things. Propagandists like Greenspan, Limbaugh, Obama, are in the false measurement business!

Jas

LAM - "remove municipal salt and lifespan would increase x3"??

Yes, but cretinism would too.

Oh, wait.

It must have already happened.

Imagine the impact of ctreyins living x3 longer. (erm, Greenspan, Madoff, whoever...)

C

Sorry, but I really have disagree with CR on this. The decline in auto sales is not only "sustainable", but can go MUCH lower.

What CR is neglecting to consider is that the inherent demand for cars is actually very elastic. You can't just take a mathematical formula that calculates the number of cars needed for the population, or the existing number of vehicles, and assume that this existing fleet must be kept intaxt.

In good times people will consume more cars than they really have to. Families will buy cars for each of their teen-agers, as well as deciding to keep a car for each parent. By contrast, when times get tough many people discover that there is no reason teens can't take public transit, or that they can't better coordinate activities to share a single car.

I personally know of families who have made decisions in the last year to downsize the number of vehicles in their families. One of my friends has started taking the bus to work so he could get rid of one of their automobiles. Myself, I have been bicycling to work for 8 years (I sold my car 7 years ago).

There is NO reason we can't see the US car fleet shrink substantially on a PERMANENT basis.

--
"That's me... own 2 cars, both paid for."

JBR,

There are "a few good men" like us!

Jas

Now normally you wouldn't need something like a door hinge....but if you've never owned a Fiat......

Ciao
MS
.
Yeah, I remember. But still. And even my Honda is not what Hondas used to be-- fit and finish not so good, and a couple of things hanging loose after less than a year. I'd rather be in a POS that goes like the proverbial bat outta hell than a POS that bores me to death, which is what Honda has decided to be.

Screw Cerberus. Top Gear had this little bug on last night. 160hp pocket rocket. Serious speed and handling, and not cop bait:
scone | 02.17.09 - 8:53 pm | #

In Europe definitive cop bait.  Everybody there still knows what a Fiat Abarth is about: speed! Fiat Abarth were the very first pocket rockets.

You still want the European model?
EvilHenryPaulson | 02.17.09 - 8:25 pm | #

Not sure why you directed this at me.  I never brought up the Explorer or the Edge.  The only european models I'm interested in don't have wheels.

In Europe definitive cop bait. Everybody there still knows what a Fiat Abarth is about: speed! Fiat Abarth were the very first pocket rockets.
RE
.
I thought you guys pulled that "Italian Job" escape shit on the local talent.

--
"Sorry, but I really have disagree with CR on this. The decline in auto sales is not only "sustainable", but can go MUCH lower."

Sniglet,

Your error is taking CR seriously. He is clueless about the demand. He doesn't know what has hit the US e-CON-omy. He still believes in "no severe recession" scenario to the best of my knowledge. We are at the verge of a depression. The guy is a dismal scientist, for God's sake.

Economists exist to make witch doctors look good!

Jas

Fudgejuicyairy Doodie writes:

You know what you have to do.

Frontline on, framed, distilled--frontline=bullshit

RE: Frontline: one would be better served watching Wheel of Fortune

So, roll it over to a bank IRA and put it in a CD. No tax impact.
rich | 02.17.09 - 9:15 pm | #

If it's an IRA, sure.  If he meant "401k", he's kinda hosed.

CR EDIT: Not Nemo. Banning coming ... if this doesn't stop. CR

10-year yield dips a few bps and Jas comes out of the woodwork.

Too predictable.

Yep,just like me being first!!

Edited By Siteowner

CR is basing this on the rubber band of pent-up demand and betting it will bounce back, which is incredibly naive on his part, very unusual BAD analysis for him.

CR, as your blog says, ports all over the world are overflowing with new cars in inventory, in the pipeline. There's another whole pipeline of used cars coming off leases. There's a glut of cars to move through the pipeline, maybe as much as 2-3 years worth. So, will there be rising sales? Yes. But will they help GM and other manufacturers rev up production in the next year or two? No.

What's weird about it is that CR, better than anyone, saw the same inventory build-up problem and its aftermath coming in housing.

There was NEVER a Federal budget surplus under Clinton. Not a single year. The Debt for Jan, 20, 1993 from
the Treasury itself -

Government - Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

01/20/1993\tNot Available\tNot Available\t4,188,092,107,183.60

The Debt for Jan, 19, 2000.

1/19/2000\tNot Available\tNot Available\t5,727,150,582,479.46

What part of $1.6 trillion INCREASE do you not understand?

I was shrieking my head off about this in the early nineties while apparently you zoned out on pot or television.

And, in point of fact since you WERE NOT PAYING ATTENTION DURING THE SHILL GAME,

Clinton is also largely responsible for refinancing out of long-term bonds and into short-term treasuries to create the ILLUSION of a smaller deficit, as well as forward-shifting several hundred billion dollars in Jan, 2000 into the next year's budget.

Clinton turned your gov't into an gigantic Option ARM.

And now we are here, as I KNEW we would be, with me having to listen to your incredible ignorance about a problem that could have been prevented.
.

I thought you guys pulled that "Italian Job" escape shit on the local talent.
scone | 02.17.09 - 9:09 pm | #

LOL it was for real....  Italians don't just flash well....

Fiat Abarth 600 pocket rocket history:

http://www.geocities.com/nikolic_lj_dragan/Racing/Fiat600Abarth/AbarthHistory.htm