The cheese will then be given directly to banks, who are expected to loan it, at a modest interest rate, back to taxpayers.
Wait just a minute... the banks have instead put their cheese proceeds in the vaults of the federal reserve as collateral to buy and hold treasuries...
Aren't food banks around the country running dangerously low on supplies? Since the government is buying it and food banks no longer can afford to, why can't the government just give it to the food banks?
Hmmm, you couldn't tell it by the price of cheese at the grocery store. It's one of the few things that hasn't come down much. I'm a cheesaholic and can't leave a chunk of vermont white cheddar unmolested...
I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...
On the topic of the four bad bears. I have a question that is motivated by those who still say to stay in equities for the long run.
If one was invested fully in the Dow companies in 1929 how many years would it have taken to return to the value of the original investment. I have seen that the Dow average returned to its 1929 level in 1952. But the question is that a number of companies dissappeared during that period and new ones were added. So the question is how much longer would it have required the surviving companies stocks to recover to the point where the entire porfolio would have returned to its 1929 level? This of course, would have to be in inflation adjusted dollars.
Actually, the sale of powdered milk to the government began with the failure of the CMP. Unable to secure day to day funding, their main lender suggested selling some powder to the government. Once the process began, buyers stood by waiting to see how low the price would go.
There are massive antitrust issues in dairy (see CFTC deal with DFA), however, USDA allows a few buyers of milk to set the price for all farmers. So, in most parts of the country dairy farms have disappeared. Not so in California. The combination of real estate value in the LA area combined with IRS tax code 1031 has driven expansion regardless of market signals in California and three other states.
As long as real estate added external capital milk production has grown in the desert West. Not very sound food supply policy.
Does this mean that all the little children will be having macaroni and cheese Monday thru Friday at school starting next month?
NorkaWest | 01.01.09 - 9:24 pm | #
Is that where the government purchases surplus food and gives it to an institution which will then stimulate the economy by distributing it to the poor in exchange for a modest profit?
Does anyone remember the old "commodities" from the '70s? The cheese we got was the 'American' variety, the simplest and most bland cheese ever made, but we were still glad to get it.
They serve macaroni and cheese at the local senior center. Perhaps the servings will multiply. I haven't been able to bring myself to go there yet (even though I qualify...denial is a strong mental pull). Meals are two dollars. There is talk they will pull the subsidy if the numbers don't improve (need more than 40 people to take advantage). This makes no sense to me, since surely they are not making money on this thing. Rules and regulations. Complexity again.
As the part owner of a Mexican (TexMex) restaurant, I'm going to be really unhappy to see my tax dollars used to prop up the cost of the food I serve. We're laying people off, cutting hours, and paring everything to the bone just to break even these days.
All of these dairy farmers were speculators...we better no bail any of them out. Many landed in my area and became multi-millionaires overnight after selling their land to homebuilders in the IE...NO BAILOUTS or Cheeze czars!
"anyone tried wasabe almonds ? very addictive."
--nutz
Yes, but they're something like $3/oz at Whole Paycheck.
Costs plus overhead and profit is how prices are set in the food industry. When the price of something gets so high that people won't buy it, they first try selling a smaller quantity for the same price. If that doesn't work, they stop selling it to consumers and start selling it to the government. If the government won't buy it, they bury the excess in trenches and stop making it.
The cheese will then be given directly to banks, who are expected to loan it, at a modest interest rate, back to taxpayers.
Wait just a minute... the banks have instead put their cheese proceeds in the vaults of the federal reserve as collateral to buy and hold treasuries...
Hoopajoops, LTD | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 9:20 pm | #
That's not very Keynesian of them. How will the cheese get eaten before it all spoils? Or is their plan to leave the Fed with all the moldy cheese, consumers with nothing, and themselves flush with treasuries?
Meant to add: the problem with dairy farm 1031's for residential development on the west coast have been mirrored by the chicken house operators on the East.
Most of that development went into industrial and warehousing/logistics, though.
While the government subsidizes cheese, US producers continue to import low-cost milk protein from free-ranging water buffalo.
This milk protein is used in glues, eg "white glue," as well as something called "processed cheese PRODUCT," not to be confused with the "processed cheese FOOD."
"Kraft Singles" are an example of "processed cheese food," but beware of "processed cheese product," which is also sold in stores.
It is, quite literally, industrial strength. The FDA can do nothing about it, on the grounds that it does not advertise itself as a "food," but as a "product."
The .gov will probably have to do something for food banks. At least increase food stamps an elgibility. Perhaps both. The state and county gov will not have the money for it.
I dropped the community garden plot I had for years and we are switching to container gardening. My guess is this is the year community gardens become food banks.
To the extent that "capitalism" is considered coextensive with "free markets", the last free markets are in the Amazon jungle. BK is bailout. Limited liability of corporations is bailout. FDIC is bailout. Capital gains tax reduction is bailout.
Meant to add: the problem with dairy farm 1031's for residential development on the west coast have been mirrored by the chicken house operators on the East.
hong konger | 01.01.09 - 10:06 pm | #
I heard something similar with the cat house operators in Nevada, too.
Somehow, the chicken houses were always right off interstates within 100 miles of a major MSA.
Hmmmm.
There have been so many ag-related pseudo-subsidies over the years, it's hard to keep track of them. They're fairly complex though, and you'll need the law firm in your state whose title includes that of an ex-governor.
Free markets are the wet dreams of overweight blowhard ideologues. There is no such thing as a truly free market. It has never happened. mp | 01.01.09 - 10:12 pm | # I wish you guys would get off Gore's case. There actually exist some people who think his free market carbon trading scheme is a good thing.
Actually Dawg, I was thinking of the other overweight blowhard ideologue. mp | 01.01.09 - 10:17 pm | # Sauce, goose, gander eh mp? Strangely the other he who shall not be named isn't overweight anymore. Buy cheese? buy carbon? One to prop up profits the other to privatiize profits.
IMO, for what it's worth. When I first heard about the carbon trading thing, as described to me by the hub, who works for an unnamed agency which is promoting this, I said "that is a ponzi". I'm sorry to hear Gore has bought into it.
"Aren't food banks around the country running dangerously low on supplies? Since the government is buying it and food banks no longer can afford to, why can't the government just give it to the food banks?"
I've always found the idea of a limited liability corporation a bit queer. How is it that you are magically able to form an organization, rack up huge debts, pin it all on the organization, and walk away clean if you lose it all? Personal fiscal responsibility is the most solid bedrock any financial system is built, but everyone seems to like playing with money that is not theirs and putting it at risk. I know the Bush administration has made personal bankruptcy more difficult, but why not do the same for corporate bankruptcy? Management would be more risk adverse if they knew they could lose their yacht if their company goes under.
I've read that in China it is much harder to discharge debt obligations both personal and corporate, which for example is one reason that recouping non-performing loans is easier. The business Guanxi network is more than just you scratch my back I scratch yours, it is also a network of personal obligations where the management is personally. There is still a social stigma and shame involved in being a deadbeat debtor. Though on the flipside, this does tend to encourage some to simply burn the books and disappear.
There has to be a more sensable system between these two extremes.
mp writes:
While the government subsidizes cheese, US producers continue to import low-cost milk protein from free-ranging water buffalo.
This milk protein is used in glues, eg "white glue," as well as something called "processed cheese PRODUCT," not to be confused with the "processed cheese FOOD."
"Kraft Singles" are an example of "processed cheese food," but beware of "processed cheese product," which is also sold in stores.
It is, quite literally, industrial strength. The FDA can do nothing about it, on the grounds that it does not advertise itself as a "food," but as a "product."
I
mp | 01.01.09 - 10:08 pm | #
Years ago, when I was in college, I worked at a grocery store that participated in the WIC program. Over the course of that summer I noticed that nobody ever used the vouchers on the cheaper cheese slices. Thinking that it was an example of government waste, I looked into it and discovered that processed cheese product was not allowed in the program. Since that day I've never purchased it again - if the government wont allow people in poverty to eat it, I think I might pass on it as well.
By the way the popular Kraft singles are processed cheese product, but Kraft also sells the least expensive real cheese slices (that I know of) under the "Kraft Deli Deluxe" name. If you can afford the price difference, they are well worth it just for the improved taste. You can obviously get much better cheese slices, but they are quite a bit more expensive.
"Anonymous writes:
I'm going to be really unhappy to see my tax dollars used to prop up the cost of the food I serve.
This program is a piker compared to the ethanol scam. Or the sugar/high-fructose corn syrup subsidy."
Oh I know that all too well and oppose them ass well. But when the daily price of cheese specifically may determine whether or not you make a profit this month it really hits home that income tax you pay from other businesses is undermining your restaurant profits / exacerbating losses.
Wiki: "Limited liability is supposed to encourage enterprise but it has also been argued that it distorts the free market by allowing the entrepreneur to externalise some risk and impose it on society at large. Moreover, there has been some concern that present structures favour large creditors who are in the position to negotiate secured terms, whereas small creditors' debts are left unsecured."
The French never allowed it, but of course they don't have huge tort verdicts. We developed it in the 1860's to encourage large private projects, like railroads, which the "free market" would not otherwise have produced and the government was not ready to assume.
Comrade Kristina writes:
Hmmm, you couldn't tell it by the price of cheese at the grocery store. It's one of the few things that hasn't come down much. I'm a cheesaholic and can't leave a chunk of vermont white cheddar unmolested...
I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...
Comrade Kristina | 01.01.09 - 9:36 pm | #
Funny you say that. My wife just bought two Vermont white cheddar for $4 on sale at Pulix here in GA
Powdered milk? We're propping up the price of f*cking powdered milk? Why doesn't the government just buy us all 5 bedroom McMansions and be done with it? What the hell - let's just prop up everyone.
There actually exist some people who think his free market carbon trading scheme is a good thing. Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 10:15 pm | #
They either haven't thought it through.
It will devolve into a paper shuffling, money scamming exercise like the wage-and-price controls of the 1970s.
Study up on Marc Rich and how he made his fortune. In went "Old" price controlled cheap oil, daisy-chain it through a dozen legal entities, and out spins decontrolled expensive oil. Sell it and hide the profits offshore.
Carbon credits would give Wall Street the opportunity to run another scam. All the unemployed mortgage brokers would be hired to come up with carbon credits (don't ask how, you don't want to know) which would then be securitized by currently unemployed financial engineers and sold to operators of coal fired power plants and steel smelters.
The government knows that as long as people are fed, they will not revolt. Hence, the reason for subsidies.
Heh, you obviously don't understand U.S. agriculture programs. They rip-off the masses by raising food prices, reducing supply, and directing tax dollars to millionaire farmers.
Food stamps, however, is an anti-masses-revolt program.
"But when the daily price of cheese specifically may determine whether or not you make a profit this month it really hits home that income tax you pay from other businesses is undermining your restaurant profits / exacerbating losses."
--bob mologna
I hate to say this, but you may have raise your prices at the restaurant. Or close it. The manipulation and cross-subsidies are only going to get worse as the government gets more involved.
Food prices are going to continue rising for constant quality of product. Today, for example, the Mrs. and I stopped by a highly recommended hamburger place to eat, where we had never been before. The food was excellent. But the tab for two hamburgers, a shared plate of fries and onion rings, a chocolate malt and an iced tea came to $38.00
Wait until the cattlemen finish thinning their herds this winter. That same burger dinner with high-quality beef will probably cost $50 by the end of this year.
Unless someone gets the bright idea of converting potatoes into ethanol, which would drive up the cost of the french fries as well.
sdtfs- My question was missing a "smiley". hong konger | 01.01.09 - 10:32 pm | # No problem,...I was still processing ways to obliquely refer to the end product, but mostly it just elicited "Ewwwww." responses. And just to bring it back full circle to the government entry into that particular market, I remember the IRS couldn't make a go at running the Mustang Ranch.
Even an M. Friedman disciple probably understands at some level that there has never been and never will be a "supply and demand" price for cheese independent of the price of the Army. You can make guns or you can make butter, but you must make guns.
On carbon trading, two of the top traders in carbon finance in London are Louis Redshaw & Imtiaz Ahmao. What they have in common...they are both 35 (not Boomers) and alumni of Enron's trading desk.
Velveeta's not half bad when you dump a can of Rotel Tomatoes in it and heat it til it melts in the microwave. It's a once a year thing.....you need the time in between to let your arteries clear.
On carbon trading, two of the top traders in carbon finance in London are Louis Redshaw & Imtiaz Ahmao. What they have in common...they are both 35 (not Boomers) and alumni of Enron's trading desk. Paradigm Lost | 01.01.09 - 10:47 pm | #
And what independent entity double-checks that the carbon offsets that they are trading truly exists? Please don't tell me that it is UN personnel redeployed from administering the Iraq Oil-for-food sanctions program?
"Next up, over-supply of beef as heards are slaughtered."
--Bob
Only temporarily. Then shortages and high prices once the herds are gone. It takes years to rebuild herds once market conditions improve.
We're buying a freezer to put away beef during the near-term glut. I'm thinking of working some local restaurants to sell me some of their surplus supply as their business falls off. Even today, the restaurants get the prime beef before the supermarkets get a whack at it.
Relatively free market capitalism is a good idea for products which rely on competition over cooperation for quality and innovation. This may not be true for large scale industrial production of say, cars, when the damage from malinvestment can rip cities apart. Subsidies with a small say and correlative dividend/exec. comp limits may turn out to be a smarter model.
Answered my own question on the source of carbon credits:
<i>The market to buy and sell such credits is especially hot in Europe where most countries have signed the U.N. Kyoto Protocol to curb CO2 emissions. The United States as of May 2007 still has not signed the Protocol.
To sell these credits as individual companies, you need to register your energy-saving and carbon-suppressing projects with the United Nations and get U.N. certification.</i>
</snarkon> If the UN is running it, we can be assured that everything is on the up-and-up. </snarkoff>
Bank-Failure Central? Try Alpharetta, Georgia - WSJ.com
Bank-Failure Central? Try Alpharetta, Georgia
ALPHARETTA, Ga. -- Fourteen miles north of Atlanta is a suburb of wide boulevards, sleepy cul-de-sacs and bustling red-brick shopping centers. It also is the bank-failure capital of the U.S. In just 13 months, three banks based within a few miles of each other went bust. Three more in other Atlanta suburbs were seized by regulators in 2008, as the region was haunted by overabundant home building, years of risky lending and one of the most relaxed regulatory environments in the U.S. for starting new banks, according to some experts. The sprawling Atlanta area was home to five of the ...
Beef is all about the taste. As a source of digestable protein it is relatively poor (~20%). Then there is the fat content. And the grain loss used to feed'em. And the land loss used to graze'em, in the case of range fed beef. Not to mention the methane gasses (30 times more harmful to the atmosphere than CO2). Not that a good steak isn't welcome once in a while, but hey!, let's be reasonable.
Or, are you thinking of that other delectable product, Cheez Whiz, requisite topping on a true Philly cheesesteak sandwich? Comrade-Dope jg (jg) | 01.01.09 - 10:55 pm | #
OMG, you're right. I'm so embarrassed not to be able to deferentiate the two. I am so out of touch with standard American cuisine. I've got to stop this elitist thinking and start using marshmallows as a salad topping.
I have seen few government-run or government-financed program that give me confidence that the government will run healthcare better than the private sector does.
Public schools are generally subpar (Pres. O- used private schools in Chicago and will do such again in D.C.). Public housing is beneath comment. Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized.
We only have our current healthcare system -- widespread use of low deductible insurance -- because employer-provided health insurance is a non-taxable benefit.
Drop that uncalled for status, and we will quickly move to self-pay with catastrophic insurance, which makes so much more sense, and which will quickly make healthcare reform itself.
FFDIC: Have you checked census data to see if there was a mass migration of ex-S & L executives from Texas and Orange County to Altanta during the 1990s?
It also is the bank-failure capital of the U.S. In just 13 months, three banks based within a few miles of each other went bust. FFDIC | 01.01.09 - 11:00 pm |
FFDIC I posted a few times a month or so ago an article from the AJC about this. The WSJ is asleep at the wheel here!
Comrade Dope: That is darn close to troll-speak. I'll only bite on the public transportation bit...actually I won't. I seem to remember some urban planners who post in these parts. I'll let them feed you that tasty tidbit.
1. I haven't heard of this one before, but it may have been posted before. A contact here in Dallas told me that he is receiving offers from banks in which one can TRADE IN their house for a bigger one. The way the deal works is that you can trade your house for one that is up to 20% more expensive than the you own. Of course, the "new" house has to be REO. When you trade in, the bank takes your old house from you (REO). This effectively shifts higher value foreclosures off of the bank balance sheet onto J6P in exchange for smaller liabilities. Clever. Apparently, at current rates, one can make this trade for the same monthly payment the borrower currently makes (in some cases, at least).
2. A local Subaru dealer is offering a promotion where if you buy an Outback, you get an Impreza for $1. Apparently both cars are new. That is the most agressive promo I've seen here - especially from a Japanese manufacturer.
I posted this on the last thread near the end. For those who missed it, would you want these thugs running your healthcare program? Give me the gov any day.
"I hate to say this, but you may have raise your prices at the restaurant. Or close it. The manipulation and cross-subsidies are only going to get worse as the government gets more involved.
Food prices are going to continue rising for constant quality of product."
In the last few months we have been lucky to see food costs falling, tortillas, meat, cheese, fresh produce, all down to some degree.
Our market is a real estate dependent medium sized area in AZ, so price rises would be very difficult. I've seen local lunch places start offering $3.00 sandwiches. One quite nice place has a "depression sandwich" on its menu: Bologna on white, take away only at $1.50. Sure, it's a gimmick, but it's telling.
We own our land and building outright and we're well established so we can live with break even or moderate losses for some time in the hopes of outlasting some / many of our competitors.
The sad part is that one of our best options for making real cost savings is to fire some of our longest serving, best, most loyal staff so we can hire competent but unknown people for lower wages. When someone has worked diligently for you for 15 - 20 years through good times, their wages tend to rise above where they need to be in hard times. These are hard times. The trouble is that wage cuts are very hard on staff morale which hurts performance, and it's nearly impossible to cut as far as you would have to to match a new hire's wage.
"I have seen few government-run or government-financed program that give me confidence that the government will run healthcare better than the private sector does."
Sorry, but that one is worn-out.
Anyway, no one said that universal health care has to be run by the government. I certainly didn't say that.
e-l-, you may not trust the source (Cato), but the argument seems plausible to me, that, for example, Amtrak would be long gone but for taxpayer support:
Rob Dawg writes: \tWill Obama be giving us the news while wearing a cardigan? Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 9:53 pm | # Mr Dawg, I noticed you were oddly absent in the prevous thread's discussion on health care. I'm assuming you were feeling outnumbered.
There ain't nuttin' like mama's roadkill cordon bleu made with gub'mint processed cheese product. Def'nitly sticks to yer ribs. Ah might hafta take back all them bad thangs ah mighta said 'bout tham Washinton thieves if'n they's gonna give us free viddles an endless unemployment eljabilty.
Wait until the sheeple realize that kabillions of those price support dollars go to the likes of agribiz monsters like ADM and not to The Farmin' Johannson Family. They'll rise up just like they did against the TARP. Uh, wait a second...
I also drove by what used to be that bank yesterday.
When it comes to the good ole boy network here in GA it runs deep. Im a Yank thats a member of a Country Club here and they dont like me much when I tell them what I do for a living and how I made a bundle of money shorting the HBs. I say F**km if they dont like it. They have an attitude because Im from NY. The past couple of years they asked where have I been and I tell them I lease a place in FL thats dirt cheap from the Housing Bubble fallout. That burns them up also!
Anything other than just cheese must be called "cheese food, cheese product" etc.
Same as anything less than 100% juice must be called a "drink-coctail" etc.
It's been a law for a long time, (I'm 55).
If the label says American cheese, that is what it MUST be, nothing more or less.
"Public housing is beneath comment." Beats the shit out of the Bus Station.
"Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized."
Yes, subsidized by the public. 4 million subway riders a day in NYC. Let's let some idiot JPMorgan robber baron run it into BK with trillions in derivatives. We had private RR, remember?
Mr Dawg, I noticed you were oddly absent in the prevous thread's discussion on health care. I'm assuming you were feeling outnumbered. metabear | 01.01.09 - 11:15 pm | # Didn't have anything substantive or pithy to add and thus held my counsel.
"Amtrak would be long gone but for taxpayer support."
I don't doubt it. And most park-space would be developed if not for taxpayer support. And most rural roads would be impassable if not for taxpayer support. And...
1 currency soon [yogi] writes:
"Public housing is beneath comment."
Beats the shit out of the Bus Station.
"Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized."
Yes, subsidized by the public. 4 million subway riders a day in NYC. Let's let some idiot JPMorgan robber baron run it into BK with trillions in derivatives. We had private RR, remember?
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.01.09 - 11:17 pm | #
Were going to have all kinds of privately run things that used to be owned and run by states soon enough. They need the money.
We also used to have trollies in most U.S. cities. My grandma said that when she was a young woman in the Roarin' Twenties, she could ride from one end of Houston to the other in 1/2/hr.
C'mon, mp, you've seen government contracting in action, at the very least from your Army days. Even if the government was solely the financing arm, and not the provider, do you think they would allow unfettered service provision?
Heck no. They'd put all sorts of dumb provisos in, and work rules, and inclusion/exclusion criteria, etc.
It would be as bad as the UAW.
Get rid of medical insurance's special tax status, and it moves to a true private sector service, just as food, housing, autos, private schools, auto repair, restaurants, etc. are.
I said it was an idea whose time has come and is the right thing to do. mp | 01.01.09 - 10:56 pm | #
I hope this happens. Assuming we fund healthcare through income taxes, my incentive to work for someone else goes WAY down once we nationalize it. I'll let you pay for my family's care while I strike out on my own as as 1099'er. I'll have... many, many months of trying to get it right
Last night for NYE, decided to go to a local pub. Saw quite a few "strangers", and overheard several saying they were "first timers" who had googled bars/clubs with no cover for NYE, and was how/why they ended up there..
1 currency soon [yogi] writes:
"Limited liability... We developed it in the 1860's to encourage large private projects, like railroads, which the "free market" would not otherwise have produced and the government was not ready to assume."
The concept of limited liability is much, much older. It dates back to the Phoenicians who invented the concepts which became known in admiralty as the laws of general average and limitation of liability. The concept was that every sea voyage was a risk of total loss, and every interest (cargo, vessel owner, and master) would only be liable to the extent that their property contributed to the voyage and survived the calamity. These concepts carried all the way down hisory to the colonies and were incorporated in federal admiralty law, finally evolving into modern corporate law.
The concept of limitation of limitation was most famously applied in the Titanic when the owners sought to limit their liability to the only surviving remnant - a lifeboat worth $50. More recently this defense was tried in the 1980s in Amoco's defense of the VLCC Amoco Cadiz disaster off the French coast. An intrepid lawyer in NY named Terry Gargon broke Amoco's defense and the French Government was ultimately awarded $120 million.
"You can speak clearly and still people don't always get the message. Sigh."
Isn't it the truth?
As long as we're now talking about railroads, let's talk about railroad subsidies.
Railroad subsidies have been around for as long as railroads have been around. It just so happens that a lot of people think that railroads are a public good.
OK, it may be time to kill Amtrak, but that doesn't change the fact that there are times when private industry can't come up with the necessary capital for a public good.
Why, I remember when it was argued that federal involvement in the road system was considered an outright subsidy of the automobile manufacturers.
The argument went like this: If we didn't have cars, we wouldn't need paved roads. On top of that, paved roads are bad for my horses' hooves!
Powder milk is part of what they use in Casein protein. Gosh, if this is true, why are casein protein prices high on the products? Last time I checked, protein was still expensive.
And cheese ... really? Again, fat-free cheese at low prices. No need for a bailout - I'll be buying like crazy. But food prices are UP 22% this year, not down. Sorry, the NY Times is simply wrong - food has inflated, bad.
mp writes:
Why, I remember when it was argued that federal involvement in the road system was considered an outright subsidy of the automobile manufacturers.
The argument went like this: If we didn't have cars, we wouldn't need paved roads. On top of that, paved roads are bad for my horses' hooves!
Do you recall the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement>Good Roads Movement? The group was founded by bicyclists pushing gov't to improve local dirt roads. Roads are a public good for activities other than car driving.
If you're going to compare passenger revenues to total cost of rail transportation, then let's also take a look at the cost of private auto transportation per mile.
If, instead of that 36 cents per gallon in taxes, we had to pay toll fees to private entities, would private entities build roads? They probably would.
Air travel 'took off' through private provision. I remember seeing lots of privately built bridges from the 1800s out in Pennsylvania.
Lots of us folks would be happy to step up and organize and provide services if we did not have to worry about government coming in and trampling us.
Kunstler's looking forward to a renaissance in railroading and Buffet reported had a large stake in one or more. Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 01.01.09 - 11:30 pm | #
Buffet is buying into a railroad with a lock on trains moving low sulphur coal from the Powder River Basin to power plants.
Kunstler thinks we are all going to ride our bicycles to the station and catch a train from California to Ohio to see family.
mp writes:
"OK, it may be time to kill Amtrak, but that doesn't change the fact that there are times when private industry can't come up with the necessary capital for a public good."
There are also times when private industry will destroy a public good for private gain. In the 1940s, GM, Goodrich and others in the auto industry bought up all the trolleys in LA which use to cover most of the city. They then tore up the tracks.
In the late 40s the Justice Department tried them for antitrust, won on liability, but when it came time to prove damages they won only a symbolic $1. At the time no one could foresee let alone prove the consequences of eradicating the public transit system and what it would ultimately do to the growth of LA.
"Buffet reported had a large stake in one or more.[railroads]"
--Comrade Bear (tj & the bear)
Heck, I'll bite on that. WB sees more subsidies coming, or higher diesel prices, or both. If WPA II doesn't fix up the interstate highways, that's three reasons for a slam dunk. Railroads make a lot of sense for long-haul freight.
The concept of limited liability may be ancient, but it was codified as applied to publicly registered corporations in the 19th Century. I'm not against it, but it is a form of intervention in the Utopian free market, as is just about any law, including rent control or national health programs.
Have no fear, when the private sector provides no jobs, the quality of public sector labor bubbles. It's called the law of supply and demand. 1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.01.09 - 11:25 pm | #
Rand-droid? Nah. Just an American with an appreciation for our history of limited government, until the '20s.
The Federal bailouts have greatly strengthened my aversion to government intervention. I 'hope' O- is better than Bush, but his appointment of Geithner and Summers is disappointing, and indicates 'more of the same.
If you're going to compare passenger revenues to total cost of rail transportation, then let's also take a look at the cost of private auto transportation per mile. mp | 01.01.09 - 11:34 pm | # I can do that as well.
2007 Transit Passenger miles: 51,873.3m 86.5¢/mile. And if POV travel were as expensive? $2,607,442.5m (2006). Yup, a 5th of GDP. More than 3x what we spend currently. Now you know why we can't afford more transit.
I'd say most people on this board are miles ahead of average people, and even the mainstream media, in understanding what's going on. But whether we're talking about fatcat financial bailouts or cheese, there's something most people here still don't get.
You talk about bailouts as if the supply of money is finite and the govt. makes bailout decisions based on some sense of value or frugality. In other words, the govt. should spend money like it's real, was earned, will need to be paid back, etc.
It's not true.
The supply of money is infinite, and govt. loans will never be paid back.
The govt. wants people to believe this, and that's why it makes (and publicizes) ridiculously bad bailouts.
Why does the govt. do this?
They want to devalue all currencies.
Stop debating how smart any given bailout is. All bailouts are smart. The stupider they are, the better they work.
Why not the Euro model of freight and passengers together metabear | 01.01.09 - 11:54 pm | # I understand that European rail freight operations are much less efficient and cost effective than American operations. In the same way, mainland European passenger rail operations are much better than American passenger rail. Each has been organized to do its priority business best. In America, it is to move stuff; in Europe, it is to move people. (I'm ignoring Britain. which is a clusterf#ck.)
barley - do you think your right to a $17 bite of cheese over-rides your responsibility to your more distressed fellow citizens, or does that not even enter into your thinking?
FDIC must be updating hardward/software using an expensive contractor of course over the holiday - cannot access fdic.gov or it has gone bankrupt overnite...
ow that is one CHEESY post!
how can I get my portion of the cheese sent to me here in Boulder?
I'm sure that without a real estate rebound or a pick up in mortgage activity, that we will hear many, many "funny" stories like this throughout 2009 - and I know you will bring 'em to us! Thanks!
Steve Higgins
Boulder CO Mortgages and Real Estate www.boulderloanranger.com
do you think your right to a $17 bite of cheese over-rides your responsibility to your more distressed fellow citizens, or does that not even enter into your thinking? 001 | 01.02.09 - 12:06 am | # 001: How does barley's buying some expensive cheese have anything to do with his resposibility or lack thereof to anybody or anything?
FFDIC, the site is working for me right now. Also, I cited it on an earlier thread today in response to Rob Dawg's claim that Security Pacific was continuing to waste taxpayer's money.
I did not read all of the comments, but on the off chance no mentioned the efforts in the 1930's to raise farm commodity prices, I will. My father and uncles told me that Roosevelt bought up all the cows and pigs and shot them and buried them in pits. It was a generally failed attempt to raise farm prices. This is when there were hungry people everywhere. They never forgave him for it. Hope the cheese isn't dumped.
I lived there. Used to ride the rails in England. When they privatized, they started lopping off the smaller towns. In Germany, you can get by without a car because you have the trams & RRs.
Norka - It seems unseemly to be flaunting expensive tastes while so many are otherwise stressed, is my point. Am I wrong? 001 | 01.02.09 - 12:13 am | #
He did kinda apologize in advance before posting.
I think his point was that prices were going up in his shopping basket. (If the USD gets trashed, they could go a lot higher and he'll have to study the substitution effect on a price index.)
The topic is government cheese and it's past midnight.
So I feel it's all right to go off topic and do something I don't think I've ever done on this blog before now.
My wildcard weekend picks:
Falcons minus 2 and over 51.
Colts minus 1 and under 51.
Ravens minus 3 and over 37.
Eagles minus 3 and under 42.
Before any of you get too upset about this comment, kindly note that I have read literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of commenters' stock market picks that are, to this reader, an entire waste of time.
Regarding Roosevelt's actions... I wonder if they could get away with that now. So many activist groups out there ready to issue legal challenges.
Bulldoze homes when there's homeless? Slaughter livestock when there's hungry?
The only reason the government is getting away with the things they are is that they involve complex financial matters most don't understand and/or they figure it's a passing storm.
It's no coincidence that anything free is to be cherished. Free speech, free cheese, free assembly, free libraries (Obama will make it broadband), and Broward's favorite, free love.
The implicit lie of the "free market" is that the purpose of our lives is to "be efficient" Broward Horne | Homepage | 01.02.09 - 12:19 am | #
Funny, I thought it was to maximize our personal freedom to the extent possible. Personally, I like freedom a lot. To whatever extent government intervention can maximize the amount of freedom and liberty I have (not to mention my ability to improve my standard of living and the ability to enjoy luxuries in life), I'm all for it. No lie.
We don't have to look that far back. '85 saw a federal buyout program wherein farmers bid competitively to be paid to voluntarily cease milk production for 5 years, and slaughter or sell their entire dairy herds overseas. My Dad gambled that the program would work, and milk prices would rise. Of course they didn't - heifer replacement numbers went through the roof, and production actually increased.
Good farmer, my dad, but not a lick of business acumen.
The Nation State will fail. We are again moving towards city states after the collapse. Italy will again become a great region to live. The Euro might survive if the Germans are able to control it, but the indebted nations will fall. The Basque, The Catalonian, The Bavarian Republics will be a reality soon.
As for USA......
Free markets are the wet dreams of overweight blowhard ideologues. There is no such thing as a truly free market. It has never happened.
Au contraire. The markets for illicit drugs are about as free as can be. The drugs which people want tend to compete on quality. The drugs which people need tend to compete on price and be of low quality. The distribution channels tend to compete with violence, there is absolutely no regulation whatsoever, quality is maintained only because of rumor and information sharing among end users, and government is abstracted away to a cost of doing business (which can be paid in several different ways) for everyone.
This, friend, is a free market. It likely isn't what people mean when they talk about free markets, but I have a firm belief that anyone who uses the phrase 'level playing field' isn't talking about a true free market, but rather arbitrary enforcement of their favorite rules.
Not free-for-alls. But I'm convinced the internet is a public good that the Govt should attempt to make "free". "Colts minus 1". That would be my pony.
Blackwater was the firm that first came to mind, too...rather than Halliburton....maybe Halliburton will "construct the camps", and Blackwater will staff 'em.
...Halliburton fighting our wars. It's already been covered in sci-fi. Read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash." Down right scary considering what's happening with Blackwater in New Orleans & Iraq and the collapse of the banks.
"FDIC must be updating hardward/software using an expensive contractor of course over the holiday - cannot access fdic.gov or it has gone bankrupt overnite..."
--FFDIC
Just about everyone who has been planning systems upgrades started just before Christmas and is working over the New Years holiday. It's the perfect time to do stuff like that - far less complaints when most of the users are doing something else.
I spent part of NYE day in a data center myself, supervising the installation of some section 179 deductions.
Do we all have to wear the Wisconsin Cheese Head Hat now?
I was kind of ... er ahh .... hoping for a Viking helmet with the horns and all.....Of course wearing baskets of fruit on your head leaves your hands... free... for ... other things...I don't know, I can't decide.
Cheeses made by artisans get a free pass from me. Most of these folks are making cheese because they love it, or because their father's father made cheese. Some of them are even producing their own feeds and milk. I know it's a fine line, but there's a real danger in only buying Kraft cheese, let alone the product. In fact, if folks actually paid the cost of some of these goods, we might be in a better spot.
Ralph: What's wrong with the level playing field? When everyone plays by the same set of rules that are enforced, and there's transparency in the system, why would that not engender trust in the financial system? How is that a bad thing? I don't get it.
001 writes:
Norka - It seems unseemly to be flaunting expensive tastes while so many are otherwise stressed, is my point. Am I wrong?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:13 am | #
With gas prices down $3 in as many months he can afford it. No?
I'm a strong believer that now is the time to increase the gas tax $.50 nationally and use the money to build a high speed rail system up and down both coasts and two east-west lines, one north and one south. 200 mile an hour trains from Boston to Miami with 12-15 stops along the way would be exactly what we need.
001 writes:
nitpicker - conspicuous consumption has always been considered 'gauche', has it not? How do you think it will look in the days ahead?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:34 am | #
Im not sure if youre serious, but if so maybe he is frugal in other ways.
Theyre telling kids in schools here to save money and water if its yellow let it mellow. If its brown flush it down
What's wrong with the level playing field? When everyone plays by the same set of rules that are enforced, and there's transparency in the system, why would that not engender trust in the financial system?
Nobody who's ever asked for a level playing field has actually wanted one. When American steelworkers ask that Chinese mills be held to US labor and environment standards, they don't want the Chinese to improve, they just want me to be precluded from buying Chinese steel. When it was Japanese steel, it was 'dumping' (and what does free market theory say against that, anyway?)
When everyone plays by an "enforced set of rules," the new unwritten rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. Enter the lobbyists, who will help you rewrite the rules to your competitors' detriment (while simultaneously cashing your competitors' checks to lobby against YOU).
Don't get me wrong -- I don't believe in an unfettered free market except in widgets, but I've been watching the process long enough to know how regulated markets, inevitably, get gamed. If you give me uncorruptible, Solomon-like politicians, I'll give you fair regulated markets.
The truth is one of my nicknames in civilian life is "Cheese".
One wouldn't expect government cheese to be competitive in quality to private enterprise cheese. Of course they don't want you to like it too much, like prison or a mental institution. But it should deliver good protein with acceptable taste. What part of "safety net" is worse than a TARP?
Comrade Kaboom writes:
"I'm a strong believer that now is the time to increase the gas tax $.50 nationally and use the money to build a high speed rail system up and down both coasts and two east-west lines, one north and one south. 200 mile an hour trains from Boston to Miami with 12-15 stops along the way would be exactly what we need."
We just voted to build such a train in California. We're supposedly going to pay for it by selling bonds and collecting money from Uncle "Subsidy" Sam. It will be like a Greyhound Bus with JATO bottles, speeding up and slowing down at every farm town bus bench between LA and SF. Another bunch 'O billions down the tubes.
You can't beat airplanes for trips over 400 miles or so, and under 400 miles, cars are a much better solution.
sm_landlord, I'm inclined to agree with your sentiments so long as the number of flights are reduced to the minimum necessary to service the demand.
But I would like to see an increase in the gasoline tax just to remind people that the supply is finite and a whole lot of it does in fact come from people who don't like us very much.
I agree. A lot of travel, both local and long distance, is really unnecessary. And could be done more efficiently where necessary.
I would not object to paying a higher gas tax as long as the money went to sensible transportation improvements, and not to the state general fund for the usual vote-buying and pandering exercises. Emphasis on sensible.
sm_landlord writes:
"Theyre telling kids in schools here to save money and water if its yellow let it mellow. If its brown flush it down"
--Topher
Ever seen the results of that in practice?
sm_landlord | 01.02.09 - 1:06 am | #
I disagree, I think air travel has its place, but for people moving in a highly populated corridor, high speed rail is the best way to go. There needs to be at least 100 miles between stations and large, easy access parking lots near every station. If you can get on a train within 20 minutes of leaving your house, unlike the 2+ hours it takes with the airport, many many people will choose the train.
You can't beat airplanes for trips over 400 miles or so, and under 400 miles, cars are a much better solution.
Passenger rail doesn't cancel 500 trains when three snowflakes appear over Chicago. It doesn't make me take my shoes off, and store all of my precious bodily fluids in three ounce bottles in baggies. It doesn't send my luggage to Newark by accident. It doesn't have a Department of Seat Pitch Minimization.
And, of course, in North America, it doesn't really exist.
That said, I may be taking the family to the West Coast this spring, and am seriously considering spending less than $3k on a ten year old Cadillac DeVille, to be sold again after the voyage. Surprisingly, the highway mileage isn't much worse than that of my much smaller car. It pains me greatly that this should be a viable option, but neither rail nor air deserve my dollars.
Do you favor the individual or society? sportsfan | 01.02.09 - 1:12 am | #
Without a doubt, the individual. I believe doing what's best for the individual is what is best for the largest number of people... since, we are all individuals (unless your name is Jas and you believe in human ant colonies). I'm unabashedly a freedom-first advocate.
"If you give me uncorruptible, Solomon-like politicians, I'll give you fair regulated markets"
We might want to get crackin' on this one.
Agree with Rocky completely. You are getting down to the nitty gritty.
re: Bloomberg article on the insurance industry and McKinsey -- does anyone here have any personal experience with them? I asked an acquaintance who works there how they are compensated. His answer: "People ask us questions; we answer them." I asked someone I didn't know well a general question about how they're organized and he game me almost exactly the same answer.
Rode TGF from Paris to Lyon to Nice last year, total about 550 miles. Cheaper and faster for 2 people than renting a car. Comfortable, good food. Wifi coming soon.
"If you can get on a train within 20 minutes of leaving your house, unlike the 2+ hours it takes with the airport, many many people will choose the train."
--Comrade Kaboom
Big "if". Ever tried to get to Union Station in LA? Do you think the TSA will be any more efficient at train stations than they are at airports?
It might work on the East Coast, but it's a total non-starter in most of California.
We have a fundamental disagreement on that point since I place societal needs above that of the individual. Not that there aren't tons of people on both sides of the question.
Nor am I necessarily going to argue for the superiority of my position. That's not important. What is important is that I try to contribute more than I cost . . . every day.
Cost of the Iraq War to-date: $584,718,041,505
Gallons of finished motor gasoline used per year: 142,354,380,000
Time to pay off Iraq War with $0.50 gas tax: 8.2 years
Amount that average regular gas prices have fallen: $2.48
Well, I'm also a firm believer that the TSA needs to go away tomorrow, placebo security is worthless. And I think if they designed the stations and located them properly, they would work very well in California. San Diego to San Francisco in 4 hours is about the same as flight time when you include the airport hassle. Well designed cities would have public transit like Portland, OR, that drops you off right at the station.
Well, I'm also a firm believer that the TSA needs to go away tomorrow, placebo security is worthless.
It's been worse than a placebo. TSA and the whole Homeland Security Department has been an outright fraud, a smokescreen and nothing more.
If we allow 12 to 15 illegal immigrants in the country (as the current administration does), how can it possibly claim to be protecting the country from terrorists?
Rode TGF from Paris to Lyon to Nice last year, total about 550 miles. Cheaper and faster for 2 people than renting a car. Comfortable, good food. Wifi coming soon. 1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:17 am | #
Spent close to a grand (near last-minute fare) riding the Eurostar from London to Paris with my spouse over the summer. The seats had no leg room (worse than domestic coach or SW Airlines), the entire train smelled terrible, expensive beverage car, extremely crowded, extremely dirty - enough one didn't want to touch things, seats very uncomfortable, dysfunctional toilets <g> and late... overall, NOT a good experience. We will fly next time.
The Virgin trains we rode within England were top-notch. Trains were incredibly nice, clean, great food (expensive still), on-time, smelled great, functioning toilets... I may ride one of these again over flying (I hate flying).
I've ridden the trains in the NE US, including Acela from NY to Philly. Acela is nice but slow. We don't seem to know how to do high-speed rail in the US. However, for the price and time spent, air is still better.
I want the freedom to take a high speed train 250 miles instead of driving, so my grandkids will have a better planet. But I can't do it without thousands of human helpers.
I want the personal freedom to buy an SEC regulated stock and have it not be a Ponzi scheme. I can't spend my life reading the prospectus.
It boils down to semantics. 1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:23 am | #
Corruption destroys freedom. We have to accept some regulation to reduce corruption and maximize freedom. On this, you and I agree. Please don't confuse these issues.
Spent close to a grand (near last-minute fare) riding the Eurostar from London to P RockyR | 01.02.09 - 1:27 am | #
Forgot to add: I had to wait in a long security line, take my shoes off, get X-rayed, and be checked in and "at the gate" 1-hour before scheduled departure.
That said, the worst transportation I've experienced yet in the world is Ryan Air.
RockyR writes:
"The Virgin trains we rode within England were top-notch. Trains were incredibly nice, clean, great food (expensive still), on-time, smelled great, functioning toilets... I may ride one of these again over flying (I hate flying)."
Ever been to Ireland?
The only thing worse than the national airline is the trains. Even their terrible roads are better than the airline and the rail system. And Ireland is supposed to be a "Euro-tiger" economy.
The only thing worse than the national airline is the trains. Even their terrible roads are better than the airline and the rail system. And Ireland is supposed to be a "Euro-tiger" economy. sm_landlord | 01.02.09 - 1:31 am | #
Ireland had lovely people, but overall I was disappointed in the place. The entire country felt like a tourist trap. Ah... ain't the export of American culture great?
first? or close to it?
This is great. I LOVE cheese.
first???? probably not.
The cheese will then be given directly to banks, who are expected to loan it, at a modest interest rate, back to taxpayers.
Wait just a minute... the banks have instead put their cheese proceeds in the vaults of the federal reserve as collateral to buy and hold treasuries...
Excellent protein can be stored in cheese for decades.
Firefox (on old Mac) crashed with new post. I got the spinning ball of frustration. Weirde.
Maybe this is what that "Chedda" fellow is talking about?
Do Credit Suisse and UBS have holes in their balance sheets?
No comments yet about mice and cats?
Does this mean that all the little children will be having macaroni and cheese Monday thru Friday at school starting next month?
Cheese to go with the whine! I have had an ear full, Then she clobbered me!
Oh my doG. Goverment cheese. Again.
Now who wants to bet those dairy farmers still receive their end of the year cheese bonuses. Dicks.
"In today's regulatory environment, it's virtually impossible to violate rules." --Bernie Madoff, Oct 20, 2007
Aren't food banks around the country running dangerously low on supplies? Since the government is buying it and food banks no longer can afford to, why can't the government just give it to the food banks?
From The Worst Predictions About 2008 - BusinessWeek
Freakin' halosca
Mom's people came, as they say, from the wrong side of the tracks.
My step-grandmother lived on nothing but social security and on what they used to call "public assistance." My mother did not get along well with her.
"Public assistance" in those days meant a monthly visit from a social worker who would come bearing gifts: blocks of processed cheese.
They looked very much like Velveeta, except they were in a foil wrapper stamped "US Department of Agriculture."
Grandma hated cheese.
Hmmm, you couldn't tell it by the price of cheese at the grocery store. It's one of the few things that hasn't come down much. I'm a cheesaholic and can't leave a chunk of vermont white cheddar unmolested...
I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...
who moved my cheese?
orma that was a good audio book
Not sure today but they used to distribute chesse at senior centers.
On the topic of the four bad bears. I have a question that is motivated by those who still say to stay in equities for the long run.
If one was invested fully in the Dow companies in 1929 how many years would it have taken to return to the value of the original investment. I have seen that the Dow average returned to its 1929 level in 1952. But the question is that a number of companies dissappeared during that period and new ones were added. So the question is how much longer would it have required the surviving companies stocks to recover to the point where the entire porfolio would have returned to its 1929 level? This of course, would have to be in inflation adjusted dollars.
I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...
Comrade Kristina | 01.01.09 - 9:36 pm | #
I fear that we will export it at a subsidized price; thereby, destroying the importing country's dairy industry.
Actually, the sale of powdered milk to the government began with the failure of the CMP. Unable to secure day to day funding, their main lender suggested selling some powder to the government. Once the process began, buyers stood by waiting to see how low the price would go.
There are massive antitrust issues in dairy (see CFTC deal with DFA), however, USDA allows a few buyers of milk to set the price for all farmers. So, in most parts of the country dairy farms have disappeared. Not so in California. The combination of real estate value in the LA area combined with IRS tax code 1031 has driven expansion regardless of market signals in California and three other states.
As long as real estate added external capital milk production has grown in the desert West. Not very sound food supply policy.
Does this mean that all the little children will be having macaroni and cheese Monday thru Friday at school starting next month?
NorkaWest | 01.01.09 - 9:24 pm | #
Only Mon Wed Fri, grilled cheese Tues and Thurs
Food bank...
Is that where the government purchases surplus food and gives it to an institution which will then stimulate the economy by distributing it to the poor in exchange for a modest profit?
Does anyone remember the old "commodities" from the '70s? The cheese we got was the 'American' variety, the simplest and most bland cheese ever made, but we were still glad to get it.
We need a Cheese Czar.
Americans are too stupid to buy cheese on their own.
They serve macaroni and cheese at the local senior center. Perhaps the servings will multiply. I haven't been able to bring myself to go there yet (even though I qualify...denial is a strong mental pull). Meals are two dollars. There is talk they will pull the subsidy if the numbers don't improve (need more than 40 people to take advantage). This makes no sense to me, since surely they are not making money on this thing. Rules and regulations. Complexity again.
Anonymous - so true about the growth of dairy farms...especialy in the Central valley of Ca....1031 moved into the area from the IE.
All ag based commodity prices are crumbling...see my post on the almond industry:
Bakersfield Bubble
As the part owner of a Mexican (TexMex) restaurant, I'm going to be really unhappy to see my tax dollars used to prop up the cost of the food I serve. We're laying people off, cutting hours, and paring everything to the bone just to break even these days.
"All ag based commodity prices are crumbling...see my post on the almond industry:"
--crispy&cole
Cool, that will make it less expensive to get the squirrels fattened up.
Can we exchange milk protein for US Treasuries in China,...so they don't have to use melamine?
Squirrel Almondine?
LOL!
Topped with come fresh cheese
*some
"Squirrel Almondine?"
--joe after the 12 pack
I wonder if squirrels would eat government cheese?
Nah, they would probably hold out for Tillamook cheddar.
>I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...<
Some cheeses are actually aged ten years.
Everything goes better with cheese!
I'm going to be really unhappy to see my tax dollars used to prop up the cost of the food I serve.
This program is a piker compared to the ethanol scam. Or the sugar/high-fructose corn syrup subsidy.
Will Obama be giving us the news while wearing a cardigan?
anyone tried wasabe almonds ? very addictive.
What is capitalism exactly? Someone please explain - somthing about supply and demand setting prices?
Oops, maybe not.
Far out.
If government cheese is in our future, I can guarantee you there will be no varieties. Certainly nothing 'aged'.
All of these dairy farmers were speculators...we better no bail any of them out. Many landed in my area and became multi-millionaires overnight after selling their land to homebuilders in the IE...NO BAILOUTS or Cheeze czars!
The government knows that as long as people are fed, they will not revolt. Hence, the reason for subsidies.
My step-grandmother lived on nothing but social security and on what they used to call "public assistance." My mother did not get along well with her.
"Public assistance" in those days meant a monthly visit from a social worker who would come bearing gifts: blocks of processed cheese.
They looked very much like Velveeta, except they were in a foil wrapper stamped "US Department of Agriculture."
Grandma hated cheese.
mp | 01.01.09 - 9:36 pm | #
Ha! Same here. I ate my fair share of government cheese as a kid on account of my grandparents. Stuff was disgusting!
"anyone tried wasabe almonds ? very addictive."
--nutz
Yes, but they're something like $3/oz at Whole Paycheck.
Costs plus overhead and profit is how prices are set in the food industry. When the price of something gets so high that people won't buy it, they first try selling a smaller quantity for the same price. If that doesn't work, they stop selling it to consumers and start selling it to the government. If the government won't buy it, they bury the excess in trenches and stop making it.
OT: Can cheese logs be burned for warmth?
Concur on the impact of 1031 exchanges and cross-breeding of the nationally sponsored ag lenders.
Oh no, there's a new Head Cheese. He will stimulate the development of alternative cheeses.
What is capitalism exactly? Someone please explain - somthing about supply and demand setting prices?
Anonymous | 01.01.09 - 9:55 pm | #
What you are seeing in America isn't capitalism anymore.
The cheese will then be given directly to banks, who are expected to loan it, at a modest interest rate, back to taxpayers.
Wait just a minute... the banks have instead put their cheese proceeds in the vaults of the federal reserve as collateral to buy and hold treasuries...
Hoopajoops, LTD | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 9:20 pm | #
That's not very Keynesian of them. How will the cheese get eaten before it all spoils? Or is their plan to leave the Fed with all the moldy cheese, consumers with nothing, and themselves flush with treasuries?
OT: Can cheese logs be burned for warmth?
sm_landlord | 01.01.09 - 10:00 pm | #
Yes, but the fumes are toxic. I'm sure the EPA would require you to get a permit.
... OK, that was a little bit of trolling, there :-/
Meant to add: the problem with dairy farm 1031's for residential development on the west coast have been mirrored by the chicken house operators on the East.
Most of that development went into industrial and warehousing/logistics, though.
yogi - we can only hope, but the demand will be such that there will be no time for such luxuries, if a situation like the 70s re-occurs. JMO.
While the government subsidizes cheese, US producers continue to import low-cost milk protein from free-ranging water buffalo.
This milk protein is used in glues, eg "white glue," as well as something called "processed cheese PRODUCT," not to be confused with the "processed cheese FOOD."
"Kraft Singles" are an example of "processed cheese food," but beware of "processed cheese product," which is also sold in stores.
It is, quite literally, industrial strength. The FDA can do nothing about it, on the grounds that it does not advertise itself as a "food," but as a "product."
I
The .gov will probably have to do something for food banks. At least increase food stamps an elgibility. Perhaps both. The state and county gov will not have the money for it.
I dropped the community garden plot I had for years and we are switching to container gardening. My guess is this is the year community gardens become food banks.
To the extent that "capitalism" is considered coextensive with "free markets", the last free markets are in the Amazon jungle. BK is bailout. Limited liability of corporations is bailout. FDIC is bailout. Capital gains tax reduction is bailout.
Food Bank Bailout
Soup lines
Free loaves of bread
Five pound blocks of CHEESE
Bags of groceries
We just get by, however we can
We all gotta duck
When the sh&t hits the fa
Meant to add: the problem with dairy farm 1031's for residential development on the west coast have been mirrored by the chicken house operators on the East.
hong konger | 01.01.09 - 10:06 pm | #
I heard something similar with the cat house operators in Nevada, too.
Somehow, the chicken houses were always right off interstates within 100 miles of a major MSA.
Hmmmm.
There have been so many ag-related pseudo-subsidies over the years, it's hard to keep track of them. They're fairly complex though, and you'll need the law firm in your state whose title includes that of an ex-governor.
Ha!
a pony can live a year on a round of camembert
So whats next? ciggerate makers? Booze makers? what the heck ..nevada brothels?
Well poor city people can't afford squirrel and the govt cheese can be used to fatten rats.
"To the extent that "capitalism" is considered coextensive with "free markets", the last free markets are in the Amazon jungle."
Free markets are the wet dreams of overweight blowhard ideologues. There is no such thing as a truly free market. It has never happened.
/rant off
I remember my uncles getting government cheese. It never occurred to me at the time but they must've been pretty poor.
Not poor enough to enjoy the cheese, though: they always gave it to my mother. And as a kid, I loved the stuff.
F-you, F-you, and F-you...who's next?
well, if you must ask, Steel of course.
STEEL INDUSTRY, IN SLUMP, LOOKS TO U.S. STIMULUS - NY Times
mp - your comments on any subject you choose are always welcome (at least by me).
Free markets are the wet dreams of overweight blowhard ideologues. There is no such thing as a truly free market. It has never happened.
mp | 01.01.09 - 10:12 pm | #
I wish you guys would get off Gore's case. There actually exist some people who think his free market carbon trading scheme is a good thing.
Actually Dawg, I was thinking of the other overweight blowhard ideologue.
sdtfs-
Uh, how would one define the type of agriculture produced at a cathouse?
BTW- working the gov subsidies through manipulation of the law has nothing to do with Capitalism.
I don't know what one would call that type of profit-seeking in polite society, but it sure isn't Capitalism.
More like parasitism for the well- heeled.
Rob Dawg - HAHA, whatta clow
Now is a great time to eat cheese. Eat now or be priced out forever.
".....free market carbon trading scheme"
....just imagining the "fun" that can be had by THAT!...
Actually Dawg, I was thinking of the other overweight blowhard ideologue.
mp | 01.01.09 - 10:17 pm | #
Sauce, goose, gander eh mp? Strangely the other he who shall not be named isn't overweight anymore. Buy cheese? buy carbon? One to prop up profits the other to privatiize profits.
IMO, for what it's worth. When I first heard about the carbon trading thing, as described to me by the hub, who works for an unnamed agency which is promoting this, I said "that is a ponzi". I'm sorry to hear Gore has bought into it.
Dinner!
"Aren't food banks around the country running dangerously low on supplies? Since the government is buying it and food banks no longer can afford to, why can't the government just give it to the food banks?"
Cheese TARP for food banks?
You forget the free market for widgets. The widget keeps the Economist in perpetual wet dream.
I'm sorry to hear Gore has bought into it.
prairiedog | 01.01.09 - 10:20 pm | #
He ain't buyin' he's sellin'.
I've always found the idea of a limited liability corporation a bit queer. How is it that you are magically able to form an organization, rack up huge debts, pin it all on the organization, and walk away clean if you lose it all? Personal fiscal responsibility is the most solid bedrock any financial system is built, but everyone seems to like playing with money that is not theirs and putting it at risk. I know the Bush administration has made personal bankruptcy more difficult, but why not do the same for corporate bankruptcy? Management would be more risk adverse if they knew they could lose their yacht if their company goes under.
I've read that in China it is much harder to discharge debt obligations both personal and corporate, which for example is one reason that recouping non-performing loans is easier. The business Guanxi network is more than just you scratch my back I scratch yours, it is also a network of personal obligations where the management is personally. There is still a social stigma and shame involved in being a deadbeat debtor. Though on the flipside, this does tend to encourage some to simply burn the books and disappear.
There has to be a more sensable system between these two extremes.
Dawg, I gave up on all ideologies a long time ago except one:
I am a firm believer in what works.
mp writes:
While the government subsidizes cheese, US producers continue to import low-cost milk protein from free-ranging water buffalo.
This milk protein is used in glues, eg "white glue," as well as something called "processed cheese PRODUCT," not to be confused with the "processed cheese FOOD."
"Kraft Singles" are an example of "processed cheese food," but beware of "processed cheese product," which is also sold in stores.
It is, quite literally, industrial strength. The FDA can do nothing about it, on the grounds that it does not advertise itself as a "food," but as a "product."
I
mp | 01.01.09 - 10:08 pm | #
Years ago, when I was in college, I worked at a grocery store that participated in the WIC program. Over the course of that summer I noticed that nobody ever used the vouchers on the cheaper cheese slices. Thinking that it was an example of government waste, I looked into it and discovered that processed cheese product was not allowed in the program. Since that day I've never purchased it again - if the government wont allow people in poverty to eat it, I think I might pass on it as well.
By the way the popular Kraft singles are processed cheese product, but Kraft also sells the least expensive real cheese slices (that I know of) under the "Kraft Deli Deluxe" name. If you can afford the price difference, they are well worth it just for the improved taste. You can obviously get much better cheese slices, but they are quite a bit more expensive.
"Anonymous writes:
I'm going to be really unhappy to see my tax dollars used to prop up the cost of the food I serve.
This program is a piker compared to the ethanol scam. Or the sugar/high-fructose corn syrup subsidy."
Oh I know that all too well and oppose them ass well. But when the daily price of cheese specifically may determine whether or not you make a profit this month it really hits home that income tax you pay from other businesses is undermining your restaurant profits / exacerbating losses.
Chicago Dude, I stand corrected.
Again, though, stay away from "processed cheese product."
Bad news.
Geoff...
Great Circle Jerks/Repo Man reference.
sdtfs-
My question was missing a "smiley".
mo betta pizza
Wiki:
"Limited liability is supposed to encourage enterprise but it has also been argued that it distorts the free market by allowing the entrepreneur to externalise some risk and impose it on society at large. Moreover, there has been some concern that present structures favour large creditors who are in the position to negotiate secured terms, whereas small creditors' debts are left unsecured."
The French never allowed it, but of course they don't have huge tort verdicts. We developed it in the 1860's to encourage large private projects, like railroads, which the "free market" would not otherwise have produced and the government was not ready to assume.
Comrade Kristina writes:
Hmmm, you couldn't tell it by the price of cheese at the grocery store. It's one of the few things that hasn't come down much. I'm a cheesaholic and can't leave a chunk of vermont white cheddar unmolested...
I think the food bank idea makes the most sense, hopefully they won't just stick it in a warehouse to rot...
Comrade Kristina | 01.01.09 - 9:36 pm | #
Funny you say that. My wife just bought two Vermont white cheddar for $4 on sale at Pulix here in GA
Good reference yogi.
A dozen cheese product slices heading your way!
Powdered milk? We're propping up the price of f*cking powdered milk? Why doesn't the government just buy us all 5 bedroom McMansions and be done with it? What the hell - let's just prop up everyone.
There actually exist some people who think his free market carbon trading scheme is a good thing.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 10:15 pm | #
They either haven't thought it through.
It will devolve into a paper shuffling, money scamming exercise like the wage-and-price controls of the 1970s.
Study up on Marc Rich and how he made his fortune. In went "Old" price controlled cheap oil, daisy-chain it through a dozen legal entities, and out spins decontrolled expensive oil. Sell it and hide the profits offshore.
Carbon credits would give Wall Street the opportunity to run another scam. All the unemployed mortgage brokers would be hired to come up with carbon credits (don't ask how, you don't want to know) which would then be securitized by currently unemployed financial engineers and sold to operators of coal fired power plants and steel smelters.
Please think it through.
Processed cheese discussion above piqued my curiosity...
Processed cheese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wow, Velveeta is "product" and not "food"?
I said "that is a ponzi".
prairiedog | 01.01.09 - 10:20 pm | #
Bingo. Give the lass a pony and a block of USDA cheese.
The government knows that as long as people are fed, they will not revolt. Hence, the reason for subsidies.
Heh, you obviously don't understand U.S. agriculture programs. They rip-off the masses by raising food prices, reducing supply, and directing tax dollars to millionaire farmers.
Food stamps, however, is an anti-masses-revolt program.
"But when the daily price of cheese specifically may determine whether or not you make a profit this month it really hits home that income tax you pay from other businesses is undermining your restaurant profits / exacerbating losses."
--bob mologna
I hate to say this, but you may have raise your prices at the restaurant. Or close it. The manipulation and cross-subsidies are only going to get worse as the government gets more involved.
Food prices are going to continue rising for constant quality of product. Today, for example, the Mrs. and I stopped by a highly recommended hamburger place to eat, where we had never been before. The food was excellent. But the tab for two hamburgers, a shared plate of fries and onion rings, a chocolate malt and an iced tea came to $38.00
Wait until the cattlemen finish thinning their herds this winter. That same burger dinner with high-quality beef will probably cost $50 by the end of this year.
Unless someone gets the bright idea of converting potatoes into ethanol, which would drive up the cost of the french fries as well.
sdtfs-
My question was missing a "smiley".
hong konger | 01.01.09 - 10:32 pm | #
No problem,...I was still processing ways to obliquely refer to the end product, but mostly it just elicited "Ewwwww." responses. And just to bring it back full circle to the government entry into that particular market, I remember the IRS couldn't make a go at running the Mustang Ranch.
Flash - excess ponies to be 'processed' as part of new USDA commodities program - film at 11:00 -
"the per-capita consumption [of dairy products] in the United States of about 580 pounds"
...unless you have teenagers - then you buy a cow - ours is named "MilkShake".
Even an M. Friedman disciple probably understands at some level that there has never been and never will be a "supply and demand" price for cheese independent of the price of the Army. You can make guns or you can make butter, but you must make guns.
"Wow, Velveeta is "product" and not "food"?"
--ztexas
I'm guessing that you have never tried Velveeta.
Either that, or you have never had real cheese.
On carbon trading, two of the top traders in carbon finance in London are Louis Redshaw & Imtiaz Ahmao. What they have in common...they are both 35 (not Boomers) and alumni of Enron's trading desk.
The undead rise again.
Next up, over-supply of beef as heards are slaughtered.
"Wow, Velveeta is "product" and not "food"?"
--ztexas
I'm guessing that you have never tried Velveeta.
sm_landlord | 01.01.09 - 10:47 pm | #
Hint: If you can spray it from a can, it's probably not cheese.
Bob writes:
Next up, over-supply of beef as heards are slaughtered.
Bob | 01.01.09 - 10:47 pm | #
That already happened because the price to feed them soared. Prices will go up on beef as a previous poster said.
Velveeta's not half bad when you dump a can of Rotel Tomatoes in it and heat it til it melts in the microwave. It's a once a year thing.....you need the time in between to let your arteries clear.
mp, your call for universal health care makes about as much sense as your call for a fee of $200-$300 to limit access to CR.
I'm with R-D-, Gore is THE fat, blindered blowhard.
On carbon trading, two of the top traders in carbon finance in London are Louis Redshaw & Imtiaz Ahmao. What they have in common...they are both 35 (not Boomers) and alumni of Enron's trading desk.
Paradigm Lost | 01.01.09 - 10:47 pm | #
And what independent entity double-checks that the carbon offsets that they are trading truly exists? Please don't tell me that it is UN personnel redeployed from administering the Iraq Oil-for-food sanctions program?
"Next up, over-supply of beef as heards are slaughtered."
--Bob
Only temporarily. Then shortages and high prices once the herds are gone. It takes years to rebuild herds once market conditions improve.
We're buying a freezer to put away beef during the near-term glut. I'm thinking of working some local restaurants to sell me some of their surplus supply as their business falls off. Even today, the restaurants get the prime beef before the supermarkets get a whack at it.
Topher writes:
Bob writes:
Next up, over-supply of beef as heards are slaughtered.
Bob | 01.01.09 - 10:47 pm | #
That already happened because the price to feed them soared. Prices will go up on beef as a previous poster said.
Topher
I didn't realize that. Thanks.
Feedlot beef is shit, anyway. Get used to legumes.
sm_landlord writes: I'm guessing that you have never tried Velveeta.
Not true... I spread it daily on my ration of soylent green (tastes great, though not sure what either is made from).
Is Velveeta available in a convenient, easy-to-use spray, now, sdtfs?
Or, are you thinking of that other delectable product, Cheez Whiz, requisite topping on a true Philly cheesesteak sandwich?
"mp, your call for universal health care makes about as much sense as your call for a fee of $200-$300 to limit access to CR."
I didn't claim that it makes sense.
I said it was an idea whose time has come and is the right thing to do.
Relatively free market capitalism is a good idea for products which rely on competition over cooperation for quality and innovation. This may not be true for large scale industrial production of say, cars, when the damage from malinvestment can rip cities apart. Subsidies with a small say and correlative dividend/exec. comp limits may turn out to be a smarter model.
Answered my own question on the source of carbon credits:
<i>The market to buy and sell such credits is especially hot in Europe where most countries have signed the U.N. Kyoto Protocol to curb CO2 emissions. The United States as of May 2007 still has not signed the Protocol.
To sell these credits as individual companies, you need to register your energy-saving and carbon-suppressing projects with the United Nations and get U.N. certification.</i>
</snarkon>
If the UN is running it, we can be assured that everything is on the up-and-up. </snarkoff>
Some beans with that cheese and Ill be a pro at cutting cheese all day long!
So what I hear is we have been eating soylent green for years disguised as cheese product? Now don't tell me what is in the Twinkies!
requisite topping on a true Philly cheesesteak sandwich?
Not true...that's just Pat's. I prefer white american on my Philly Cheese Steak and a number of establishments in Philly do just that.
Bank-Failure Central? Try Alpharetta, Georgia - WSJ.com
Bank-Failure Central? Try Alpharetta, Georgia
ALPHARETTA, Ga. -- Fourteen miles north of Atlanta is a suburb of wide boulevards, sleepy cul-de-sacs and bustling red-brick shopping centers. It also is the bank-failure capital of the U.S. In just 13 months, three banks based within a few miles of each other went bust. Three more in other Atlanta suburbs were seized by regulators in 2008, as the region was haunted by overabundant home building, years of risky lending and one of the most relaxed regulatory environments in the U.S. for starting new banks, according to some experts. The sprawling Atlanta area was home to five of the ...
They need to change the name to Omegarita.
Beef is all about the taste. As a source of digestable protein it is relatively poor (~20%). Then there is the fat content. And the grain loss used to feed'em. And the land loss used to graze'em, in the case of range fed beef. Not to mention the methane gasses (30 times more harmful to the atmosphere than CO2). Not that a good steak isn't welcome once in a while, but hey!, let's be reasonable.
Or, are you thinking of that other delectable product, Cheez Whiz, requisite topping on a true Philly cheesesteak sandwich?
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) | 01.01.09 - 10:55 pm | #
OMG, you're right. I'm so embarrassed not to be able to deferentiate the two. I am so out of touch with standard American cuisine. I've got to stop this elitist thinking and start using marshmallows as a salad topping.
I have seen few government-run or government-financed program that give me confidence that the government will run healthcare better than the private sector does.
Public schools are generally subpar (Pres. O- used private schools in Chicago and will do such again in D.C.). Public housing is beneath comment. Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized.
We only have our current healthcare system -- widespread use of low deductible insurance -- because employer-provided health insurance is a non-taxable benefit.
Drop that uncalled for status, and we will quickly move to self-pay with catastrophic insurance, which makes so much more sense, and which will quickly make healthcare reform itself.
FFDIC: Have you checked census data to see if there was a mass migration of ex-S & L executives from Texas and Orange County to Altanta during the 1990s?
"...I prefer white american..."
It is a new day and age, M-B-. Get with the times, sir.
It also is the bank-failure capital of the U.S. In just 13 months, three banks based within a few miles of each other went bust. FFDIC | 01.01.09 - 11:00 pm |
FFDIC I posted a few times a month or so ago an article from the AJC about this. The WSJ is asleep at the wheel here!
Good ole boys network here in GA.
"the tab for two hamburgers ...came to $38"
Then stop eating in Canada!!!
.
Comrade Dope: That is darn close to troll-speak. I'll only bite on the public transportation bit...actually I won't. I seem to remember some urban planners who post in these parts. I'll let them feed you that tasty tidbit.
OT:
Two anecdotal items from today:
1.
I haven't heard of this one before, but it may have been posted before. A contact here in Dallas told me that he is receiving offers from banks in which one can TRADE IN their house for a bigger one. The way the deal works is that you can trade your house for one that is up to 20% more expensive than the you own. Of course, the "new" house has to be REO. When you trade in, the bank takes your old house from you (REO). This effectively shifts higher value foreclosures off of the bank balance sheet onto J6P in exchange for smaller liabilities. Clever. Apparently, at current rates, one can make this trade for the same monthly payment the borrower currently makes (in some cases, at least).
2.
A local Subaru dealer is offering a promotion where if you buy an Outback, you get an Impreza for $1. Apparently both cars are new. That is the most agressive promo I've seen here - especially from a Japanese manufacturer.
TTFN,
RR
I posted this on the last thread near the end. For those who missed it, would you want these thugs running your healthcare program? Give me the gov any day.
The Insurance Hoax
"I hate to say this, but you may have raise your prices at the restaurant. Or close it. The manipulation and cross-subsidies are only going to get worse as the government gets more involved.
Food prices are going to continue rising for constant quality of product."
In the last few months we have been lucky to see food costs falling, tortillas, meat, cheese, fresh produce, all down to some degree.
Our market is a real estate dependent medium sized area in AZ, so price rises would be very difficult. I've seen local lunch places start offering $3.00 sandwiches. One quite nice place has a "depression sandwich" on its menu: Bologna on white, take away only at $1.50. Sure, it's a gimmick, but it's telling.
We own our land and building outright and we're well established so we can live with break even or moderate losses for some time in the hopes of outlasting some / many of our competitors.
The sad part is that one of our best options for making real cost savings is to fire some of our longest serving, best, most loyal staff so we can hire competent but unknown people for lower wages. When someone has worked diligently for you for 15 - 20 years through good times, their wages tend to rise above where they need to be in hard times. These are hard times. The trouble is that wage cuts are very hard on staff morale which hurts performance, and it's nearly impossible to cut as far as you would have to to match a new hire's wage.
We'll do what we must to stay afloat.
"I have seen few government-run or government-financed program that give me confidence that the government will run healthcare better than the private sector does."
Sorry, but that one is worn-out.
Anyway, no one said that universal health care has to be run by the government. I certainly didn't say that.
e-l-, you may not trust the source (Cato), but the argument seems plausible to me, that, for example, Amtrak would be long gone but for taxpayer support:
https://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/html/pa419/pa41900023.html
TTFN,
RR
RockyR | 01.01.09 - 11:08 pm | #
An Outback would hold a lot of cheese. Could I have a link please?
Rob Dawg writes:
\tWill Obama be giving us the news while wearing a cardigan?
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.01.09 - 9:53 pm | #
Mr Dawg, I noticed you were oddly absent in the prevous thread's discussion on health care. I'm assuming you were feeling outnumbered.
I certainly didn't say that.
mp | 01.01.09 - 11:11 pm | #
You can speak clearly and still people don't always get the message. Sigh.
There ain't nuttin' like mama's roadkill cordon bleu made with gub'mint processed cheese product. Def'nitly sticks to yer ribs. Ah might hafta take back all them bad thangs ah mighta said 'bout tham Washinton thieves if'n they's gonna give us free viddles an endless unemployment eljabilty.
Wait until the sheeple realize that kabillions of those price support dollars go to the likes of agribiz monsters like ADM and not to The Farmin' Johannson Family. They'll rise up just like they did against the TARP. Uh, wait a second...
cd
I also drove by what used to be that bank yesterday.
When it comes to the good ole boy network here in GA it runs deep. Im a Yank thats a member of a Country Club here and they dont like me much when I tell them what I do for a living and how I made a bundle of money shorting the HBs. I say F**km if they dont like it. They have an attitude because Im from NY. The past couple of years they asked where have I been and I tell them I lease a place in FL thats dirt cheap from the Housing Bubble fallout. That burns them up also!
Anything other than just cheese must be called "cheese food, cheese product" etc.
Same as anything less than 100% juice must be called a "drink-coctail" etc.
It's been a law for a long time, (I'm 55).
If the label says American cheese, that is what it MUST be, nothing more or less.
"Public housing is beneath comment."
Beats the shit out of the Bus Station.
"Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized."
Yes, subsidized by the public. 4 million subway riders a day in NYC. Let's let some idiot JPMorgan robber baron run it into BK with trillions in derivatives. We had private RR, remember?
Mr Dawg, I noticed you were oddly absent in the prevous thread's discussion on health care. I'm assuming you were feeling outnumbered.
metabear | 01.01.09 - 11:15 pm | #
Didn't have anything substantive or pithy to add and thus held my counsel.
"Amtrak would be long gone but for taxpayer support."
I don't doubt it. And most park-space would be developed if not for taxpayer support. And most rural roads would be impassable if not for taxpayer support. And...
I tell them I lease a place in FL that's dirt cheap from the Housing Bubble fallout.
Topher | 01.01.09 - 11:16 pm | #
I keep waiting to do that here in SoCal, but it's taking a little longer. That's okay; I'm patient.
1 currency soon [yogi] writes:
"Public housing is beneath comment."
Beats the shit out of the Bus Station.
"Public transportation is uneconomic, i.e., subsidized."
Yes, subsidized by the public. 4 million subway riders a day in NYC. Let's let some idiot JPMorgan robber baron run it into BK with trillions in derivatives. We had private RR, remember?
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.01.09 - 11:17 pm | #
Were going to have all kinds of privately run things that used to be owned and run by states soon enough. They need the money.
pithy? or pissy?
We also used to have trollies in most U.S. cities. My grandma said that when she was a young woman in the Roarin' Twenties, she could ride from one end of Houston to the other in 1/2/hr.
C'mon, mp, you've seen government contracting in action, at the very least from your Army days. Even if the government was solely the financing arm, and not the provider, do you think they would allow unfettered service provision?
Heck no. They'd put all sorts of dumb provisos in, and work rules, and inclusion/exclusion criteria, etc.
It would be as bad as the UAW.
Get rid of medical insurance's special tax status, and it moves to a true private sector service, just as food, housing, autos, private schools, auto repair, restaurants, etc. are.
pithy? or pissy?
001 | 01.01.09 - 11:21 pm | #
Pithy, you you wouldn't like me (even more) when I'm pissy.
I didn't claim that it makes sense.
I said it was an idea whose time has come and is the right thing to do.
mp | 01.01.09 - 10:56 pm | #
I hope this happens. Assuming we fund healthcare through income taxes, my incentive to work for someone else goes WAY down once we nationalize it. I'll let you pay for my family's care while I strike out on my own as as 1099'er. I'll have... many, many months of trying to get it right
OT, anecdotal...
Last night for NYE, decided to go to a local pub. Saw quite a few "strangers", and overheard several saying they were "first timers" who had googled bars/clubs with no cover for NYE, and was how/why they ended up there..
Have no fear, when the private sector provides no jobs, the quality of public sector labor bubbles. It's called the law of supply and demand.
1 currency soon [yogi] writes:
"Limited liability... We developed it in the 1860's to encourage large private projects, like railroads, which the "free market" would not otherwise have produced and the government was not ready to assume."
The concept of limited liability is much, much older. It dates back to the Phoenicians who invented the concepts which became known in admiralty as the laws of general average and limitation of liability. The concept was that every sea voyage was a risk of total loss, and every interest (cargo, vessel owner, and master) would only be liable to the extent that their property contributed to the voyage and survived the calamity. These concepts carried all the way down hisory to the colonies and were incorporated in federal admiralty law, finally evolving into modern corporate law.
The concept of limitation of limitation was most famously applied in the Titanic when the owners sought to limit their liability to the only surviving remnant - a lifeboat worth $50. More recently this defense was tried in the 1980s in Amoco's defense of the VLCC Amoco Cadiz disaster off the French coast. An intrepid lawyer in NY named Terry Gargon broke Amoco's defense and the French Government was ultimately awarded $120 million.
I like you, old man. Keep on keepin' on.
"You can speak clearly and still people don't always get the message. Sigh."
Isn't it the truth?
As long as we're now talking about railroads, let's talk about railroad subsidies.
Railroad subsidies have been around for as long as railroads have been around. It just so happens that a lot of people think that railroads are a public good.
OK, it may be time to kill Amtrak, but that doesn't change the fact that there are times when private industry can't come up with the necessary capital for a public good.
Why, I remember when it was argued that federal involvement in the road system was considered an outright subsidy of the automobile manufacturers.
The argument went like this: If we didn't have cars, we wouldn't need paved roads. On top of that, paved roads are bad for my horses' hooves!
Do I need say any more?
Powder milk is part of what they use in Casein protein. Gosh, if this is true, why are casein protein prices high on the products? Last time I checked, protein was still expensive.
And cheese ... really? Again, fat-free cheese at low prices. No need for a bailout - I'll be buying like crazy. But food prices are UP 22% this year, not down. Sorry, the NY Times is simply wrong - food has inflated, bad.
Kunstler's looking forward to a renaissance in railroading and Buffet reported had a large stake in one or more.
[Rob, is that enough bait?]
National Transit Profile 2007:
Operating Costs $31,303.6m
Capital Costs $13,570.8
Passenger Fares $10,586.2m
Any questions?
An Outback would hold a lot of cheese. Could I have a link please?
FFDIC | 01.01.09 - 11:14 pm | #
Here is a link to a blog article about it (didn't go to dealer page):
http://www.stiblog.com/random/car-deals-random/texas-subaru-dealer-2-for-1-car-deal/
Dawg - isn't it worth some public support to keep X-number of 18-wheelers off the highways?
mp writes:
Why, I remember when it was argued that federal involvement in the road system was considered an outright subsidy of the automobile manufacturers.
The argument went like this: If we didn't have cars, we wouldn't need paved roads. On top of that, paved roads are bad for my horses' hooves!
Do you recall the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement>Good Roads Movement? The group was founded by bicyclists pushing gov't to improve local dirt roads. Roads are a public good for activities other than car driving.
"Any questions? "
Dawg, that one don't hunt.
If you're going to compare passenger revenues to total cost of rail transportation, then let's also take a look at the cost of private auto transportation per mile.
Here in California, the Feds and state collect 36 cents per gallon of gasoline.
Gas Taxes By State
If, instead of that 36 cents per gallon in taxes, we had to pay toll fees to private entities, would private entities build roads? They probably would.
Air travel 'took off' through private provision. I remember seeing lots of privately built bridges from the 1800s out in Pennsylvania.
Lots of us folks would be happy to step up and organize and provide services if we did not have to worry about government coming in and trampling us.
Kunstler's looking forward to a renaissance in railroading and Buffet reported had a large stake in one or more.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 01.01.09 - 11:30 pm | #
Buffet is buying into a railroad with a lock on trains moving low sulphur coal from the Powder River Basin to power plants.
Kunstler thinks we are all going to ride our bicycles to the station and catch a train from California to Ohio to see family.
I'm betting on Buffet.
mp writes:
"OK, it may be time to kill Amtrak, but that doesn't change the fact that there are times when private industry can't come up with the necessary capital for a public good."
There are also times when private industry will destroy a public good for private gain. In the 1940s, GM, Goodrich and others in the auto industry bought up all the trolleys in LA which use to cover most of the city. They then tore up the tracks.
In the late 40s the Justice Department tried them for antitrust, won on liability, but when it came time to prove damages they won only a symbolic $1. At the time no one could foresee let alone prove the consequences of eradicating the public transit system and what it would ultimately do to the growth of LA.
"Buffet reported had a large stake in one or more.[railroads]"
--Comrade Bear (tj & the bear)
Heck, I'll bite on that. WB sees more subsidies coming, or higher diesel prices, or both. If WPA II doesn't fix up the interstate highways, that's three reasons for a slam dunk. Railroads make a lot of sense for long-haul freight.
Just not for passengers.
New year nightmare brings spectre of 1930s-style depression to eurozone |
Business |
The Guardian
New year nightmare brings spectre of 1930s-style depression to eurozone
Rob Dawg writes:
Will Obama be giving us the news while wearing a cardigan?
Rob Dawg
No. He'll be wearing dark shades, a dasheiki(sp) and pants hanging halfway down his ass showing his boxers.
The concept of limited liability may be ancient, but it was codified as applied to publicly registered corporations in the 19th Century. I'm not against it, but it is a form of intervention in the Utopian free market, as is just about any law, including rent control or national health programs.
"Air travel 'took off' through private provision."
Haven't you forgotten about the air mail contracts of the 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s...?
LOL. You're apparently fighting a Rand-droid.
Amsterdam: note the clean air.
http://www.spinningwheel.org/images/bike_parking_1.jpg
GM, Goodrich and others in the auto industry bought up all the trolleys in LA
Comrade V | 01.01.09 - 11:36 pm | #
I believe that is was Firestone, not Goodrich or Goodyear, that did in the muni railroads.
Don't cut the cheese!
I can't resist being snarky here:
Have no fear, when the private sector provides no jobs, the quality of public sector labor bubbles. It's called the law of supply and demand.
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.01.09 - 11:25 pm | #
Yes, but we don't work NEARLY as hard.
Rand-droid? Nah. Just an American with an appreciation for our history of limited government, until the '20s.
The Federal bailouts have greatly strengthened my aversion to government intervention. I 'hope' O- is better than Bush, but his appointment of Geithner and Summers is disappointing, and indicates 'more of the same.
If you're going to compare passenger revenues to total cost of rail transportation, then let's also take a look at the cost of private auto transportation per mile.
mp | 01.01.09 - 11:34 pm | #
I can do that as well.
2007 Transit Passenger miles: 51,873.3m 86.5¢/mile.
And if POV travel were as expensive? $2,607,442.5m (2006). Yup, a 5th of GDP. More than 3x what we spend currently. Now you know why we can't afford more transit.
mrade V writes: "There are also times when private industry will destroy a public good for private gain."
The air.
The water.
Natural beauty.
...
yogi -bingo!
NorkaWest writes:
"I believe that is was Firestone, not Goodrich or Goodyear, that did in the muni railroads."
You are correct. Standard oil was the oher defendant.
Pacific Electric Railway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See "the General Motors Conspiracy". The corporate defendants were fined $5K, and the individual directors $1.
If the private sector is, by virtue of some unknown quality, better suited than the public sector to deliver services, then:
why not contract with a Halliburton to fight our wars?
provide police protection?
Is that the Limbaugh Solution?
"sm_landlord(Good) writes:
\tRailroads make a lot of sense for long-haul freight.
Just not for passengers."
Why not the Euro model of freight and passengers together?
mp - tell the truth - isn't this format better than pay-to-play?
I'd say most people on this board are miles ahead of average people, and even the mainstream media, in understanding what's going on. But whether we're talking about fatcat financial bailouts or cheese, there's something most people here still don't get.
You talk about bailouts as if the supply of money is finite and the govt. makes bailout decisions based on some sense of value or frugality. In other words, the govt. should spend money like it's real, was earned, will need to be paid back, etc.
It's not true.
The supply of money is infinite, and govt. loans will never be paid back.
The govt. wants people to believe this, and that's why it makes (and publicizes) ridiculously bad bailouts.
Why does the govt. do this?
They want to devalue all currencies.
Stop debating how smart any given bailout is. All bailouts are smart. The stupider they are, the better they work.
"mp - tell the truth - isn't this format better than pay-to-play?"
001, it is tonight.
Rich, this article was written for you:
A Nevada Town Escapes the Slump, Thanks to Gold - NY Times
rich - we're only miles ahead because of people like yourself -
Gunna sound like a cheese snob...Most Amerikan cheese is pure crap...generally!
About falling prices...bought some of my fav blue french cheese two days ago and it cost me $17 for a small piece...the very most I have ever paid...
Why not the Euro model of freight and passengers together
metabear | 01.01.09 - 11:54 pm | #
I understand that European rail freight operations are much less efficient and cost effective than American operations. In the same way, mainland European passenger rail operations are much better than American passenger rail. Each has been organized to do its priority business best. In America, it is to move stuff; in Europe, it is to move people. (I'm ignoring Britain. which is a clusterf#ck.)
barley - do you think your right to a $17 bite of cheese over-rides your responsibility to your more distressed fellow citizens, or does that not even enter into your thinking?
FDIC must be updating hardward/software using an expensive contractor of course over the holiday - cannot access fdic.gov or it has gone bankrupt overnite...
001,
Ya need a band-aide for that bleedin' heart?
ow that is one CHEESY post!
how can I get my portion of the cheese sent to me here in Boulder?
I'm sure that without a real estate rebound or a pick up in mortgage activity, that we will hear many, many "funny" stories like this throughout 2009 - and I know you will bring 'em to us! Thanks!
Steve Higgins
Boulder CO Mortgages and Real Estate
www.boulderloanranger.com
Here's a good example:
Derailed: The U.K.'s disastrous experience with railway privatization
do you think your right to a $17 bite of cheese over-rides your responsibility to your more distressed fellow citizens, or does that not even enter into your thinking?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:06 am | #
001: How does barley's buying some expensive cheese have anything to do with his resposibility or lack thereof to anybody or anything?
FFDIC, the site is working for me right now. Also, I cited it on an earlier thread today in response to Rob Dawg's claim that Security Pacific was continuing to waste taxpayer's money.
itpi - what's that stand for? nitpicker? What's your problem?
001,
Exactly correct...but for some reason, haloscan likes to shorten things.
They want to devalue all currencies.
rich | 01.01.09 - 11:57 pm | #
Pray tell to what end?
Don't get me started on that one world digital weigthed index/currency, I must sleep soon.
Every enforced law is a bailout of some group.
I did not read all of the comments, but on the off chance no mentioned the efforts in the 1930's to raise farm commodity prices, I will. My father and uncles told me that Roosevelt bought up all the cows and pigs and shot them and buried them in pits. It was a generally failed attempt to raise farm prices. This is when there were hungry people everywhere. They never forgave him for it. Hope the cheese isn't dumped.
Norka - It seems unseemly to be flaunting expensive tastes while so many are otherwise stressed, is my point. Am I wrong?
Seignorage: That's how they make money, they spend a buck, then print another.
"My father and uncles told me that Roosevelt bought up all the cows and pigs and shot them and buried them in pits."
That did happen, not just with pork and beef, but a lot of commodities.
Forget the cheese, for the first time I am aware of we seem to have more constructed housing than we need. This is partially a cause for celebration.
WWII vets came back to a housing shortage.
I lived there. Used to ride the rails in England. When they privatized, they started lopping off the smaller towns. In Germany, you can get by without a car because you have the trams & RRs.
The implicit lie of the "free market" is that the purpose of our lives is to "be efficient"
Free marketeers are usually lazy fellows looking for a magic black box of goodies.
Norka - It seems unseemly to be flaunting expensive tastes while so many are otherwise stressed, is my point. Am I wrong?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:13 am | #
He did kinda apologize in advance before posting.
I think his point was that prices were going up in his shopping basket. (If the USD gets trashed, they could go a lot higher and he'll have to study the substitution effect on a price index.)
CR says normal posting resumes tomorrow.
The topic is government cheese and it's past midnight.
So I feel it's all right to go off topic and do something I don't think I've ever done on this blog before now.
My wildcard weekend picks:
Falcons minus 2 and over 51.
Colts minus 1 and under 51.
Ravens minus 3 and over 37.
Eagles minus 3 and under 42.
Before any of you get too upset about this comment, kindly note that I have read literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of commenters' stock market picks that are, to this reader, an entire waste of time.
Got any New Years Resolutions?
barley,
Let me commend you on your excellent taste in cheese, and further more, on the wherewithall to induldge in it.
Regarding Roosevelt's actions... I wonder if they could get away with that now. So many activist groups out there ready to issue legal challenges.
Bulldoze homes when there's homeless? Slaughter livestock when there's hungry?
The only reason the government is getting away with the things they are is that they involve complex financial matters most don't understand and/or they figure it's a passing storm.
I was also in England when the privatized pension system collapsed. A lot of regular working people lost everything & had to start over.
St. Louis Fed: Series: WAIG, Credit Extended to American International Group, Inc., Net
Norka - I get that, yet he still paid the price, no?
It's no coincidence that anything free is to be cherished. Free speech, free cheese, free assembly, free libraries (Obama will make it broadband), and Broward's favorite, free love.
Free fire zone?
The implicit lie of the "free market" is that the purpose of our lives is to "be efficient"
Broward Horne | Homepage | 01.02.09 - 12:19 am | #
Funny, I thought it was to maximize our personal freedom to the extent possible. Personally, I like freedom a lot. To whatever extent government intervention can maximize the amount of freedom and liberty I have (not to mention my ability to improve my standard of living and the ability to enjoy luxuries in life), I'm all for it. No lie.
"Roosevelt bought up all the cows"
We don't have to look that far back. '85 saw a federal buyout program wherein farmers bid competitively to be paid to voluntarily cease milk production for 5 years, and slaughter or sell their entire dairy herds overseas. My Dad gambled that the program would work, and milk prices would rise. Of course they didn't - heifer replacement numbers went through the roof, and production actually increased.
Good farmer, my dad, but not a lick of business acumen.
barley,
I take it back...how DARE you indulge such extravagant tastes, when some still most opt for "cheese products" (snark off)
Bear, free fire zone isn't funny.
We here at Leftys offer a $1.00 table of Goverment cheese. The realtors and investment bankers love it. No tipping please.
"why not contract with a Halliburton to fight our wars? Or provide police protection?"
....Give them time. They run our prisons and private security now?
The Nation State will fail. We are again moving towards city states after the collapse. Italy will again become a great region to live. The Euro might survive if the Germans are able to control it, but the indebted nations will fall. The Basque, The Catalonian, The Bavarian Republics will be a reality soon.
As for USA......
OT-Japan's stock market is taking January 1, 2, & 3 off. Last trades are quoted as being on 12/30/2008. Damn, I wish I worked over there.
Free markets are the wet dreams of overweight blowhard ideologues. There is no such thing as a truly free market. It has never happened.
Au contraire. The markets for illicit drugs are about as free as can be. The drugs which people want tend to compete on quality. The drugs which people need tend to compete on price and be of low quality. The distribution channels tend to compete with violence, there is absolutely no regulation whatsoever, quality is maintained only because of rumor and information sharing among end users, and government is abstracted away to a cost of doing business (which can be paid in several different ways) for everyone.
This, friend, is a free market. It likely isn't what people mean when they talk about free markets, but I have a firm belief that anyone who uses the phrase 'level playing field' isn't talking about a true free market, but rather arbitrary enforcement of their favorite rules.
Bear, free fire zone isn't funny.
sportsfan | 01.02.09 - 12:26 am | #
Sorry, mp's comments got me thinking about Blackwater. Not funny, either.
Not free-for-alls. But I'm convinced the internet is a public good that the Govt should attempt to make "free".
"Colts minus 1". That would be my pony.
Historical High \tDate \tRate
West Virginia \tMar. 1983 \t18.2
Michigan \tNov. 1982 \t16.9
Alabama \tDec. 1982 \t14.4
Ohio \tJan. 1983 \t13.8
Mississippi \tMay 1983 \t13.7
Louisiana \tSept. 1986 \t12.9
Pennsylvania \tMar. 1983 \t12.9
Illinois \tFeb. 1983 \t12.9
Indiana \tNov. 1982 \t12.8
Tennessee \tDec. 1982 \t12.4
Note: Data series begin in January 1976.
Inventories, in general?
Comrade Bear,
Blackwater was the firm that first came to mind, too...rather than Halliburton....maybe Halliburton will "construct the camps", and Blackwater will staff 'em.
itpicker - conspicuous consumption has always been considered 'gauche', has it not? How do you think it will look in the days ahead?
...Halliburton fighting our wars. It's already been covered in sci-fi. Read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash." Down right scary considering what's happening with Blackwater in New Orleans & Iraq and the collapse of the banks.
"FDIC must be updating hardward/software using an expensive contractor of course over the holiday - cannot access fdic.gov or it has gone bankrupt overnite..."
--FFDIC
Just about everyone who has been planning systems upgrades started just before Christmas and is working over the New Years holiday. It's the perfect time to do stuff like that - far less complaints when most of the users are doing something else.
I spent part of NYE day in a data center myself, supervising the installation of some section 179 deductions.
"arbitrary enforcement of their favorite rules.'
Or even fair-seeming enforcement of rules arbitrarily tilted to a particular power group.
001,
Define "conspicuous"...its all relative. Maybe, in the future, they'll have "underground" wine and cheese parties.
How do you think it will look in the days ahead?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:34 am | #
It will look like Keynes and Freidman will be dropped from the economics coursework in favor of Veblem.
Do we all have to wear the Wisconsin Cheese Head Hat now?
I was kind of ... er ahh .... hoping for a Viking helmet with the horns and all.....Of course wearing baskets of fruit on your head leaves your hands... free... for ... other things...I don't know, I can't decide.
Bear, sorry for the comment. It wasn't necessary on my part.
When it's time to pick up the cheese, the stores may be completely sold out, like this cheese shop in the United Kingdom.
Veblem
NorkaWest | 01.02.09 - 12:39 am | #
is spelled Veblen.
001 -
Cheeses made by artisans get a free pass from me. Most of these folks are making cheese because they love it, or because their father's father made cheese. Some of them are even producing their own feeds and milk. I know it's a fine line, but there's a real danger in only buying Kraft cheese, let alone the product. In fact, if folks actually paid the cost of some of these goods, we might be in a better spot.
Ralph: What's wrong with the level playing field? When everyone plays by the same set of rules that are enforced, and there's transparency in the system, why would that not engender trust in the financial system? How is that a bad thing? I don't get it.
itpicker - no doubt they will. And how fun they'll be.
"As for USA......"
......We will fragment into about 7-10 regional states, most more efficient than the current.
(We get first dibs on solar production, Sin City, free enterprise zones, and cash friendly environments....Neener, neener, neeeeenerrrr!)
Speaking of dumping milk: You don't have to look back very far. Only to 2002, in fact.
https://www.mises.org/story/1101
.
....sorry....I've been around the teenagers too long these two weeks.
001 writes:
Norka - It seems unseemly to be flaunting expensive tastes while so many are otherwise stressed, is my point. Am I wrong?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:13 am | #
With gas prices down $3 in as many months he can afford it. No?
Haven't read any Veblen since Econ undergrad in the 80's but one could mold a "Theory of the Cheese Class".
"Theory of the Cheese Class"
I understand they built a major program around that in a certain place:
Bucky Badger likes Cheese!
from another site.
CEO Chief Embezzlement Officer.
CFO Corporate Fraud Officer.
BULL MARKET A random market movement causing an investor to mistake himself for a financial genius.
BEAR MARKET A 6 to18 month period when the kids get no allowance, the wife gets no jewelry, and the husband gets no sex.
VALUE INVESTING The art of buying low and selling lower.
P/E RATIO The percentage of investors wetting their pants as the market keeps crashing.
BROKER What my broker has made me.
STANDARD& POOR Your life in a nutshell.
STOCK ANALYST Idiot who just down-graded your stock.
STOCK SPLIT When your ex-wife and her lawyer split your assets equally between themselves.
FINANCIAL PLANNER A guy whose phone has been disconnected.
MARKET CORRECTION The day after you buy stocks.
CASH FLOW The movement your money makes as it disappears down the toilet.
YAHOO What you yell after selling it to some poor sucker for $240 per share.
WINDOWS What you jump out of when youre the sucker who bought Yahoo @ $240 per share.
INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR Past year investor whos now locked up in a nut house.
PROFIT An archaic word no longer in use.
I'm a strong believer that now is the time to increase the gas tax $.50 nationally and use the money to build a high speed rail system up and down both coasts and two east-west lines, one north and one south. 200 mile an hour trains from Boston to Miami with 12-15 stops along the way would be exactly what we need.
001 writes:
nitpicker - conspicuous consumption has always been considered 'gauche', has it not? How do you think it will look in the days ahead?
001 | 01.02.09 - 12:34 am | #
Im not sure if youre serious, but if so maybe he is frugal in other ways.
Theyre telling kids in schools here to save money and water if its yellow let it mellow. If its brown flush it down
What's wrong with the level playing field? When everyone plays by the same set of rules that are enforced, and there's transparency in the system, why would that not engender trust in the financial system?
Nobody who's ever asked for a level playing field has actually wanted one. When American steelworkers ask that Chinese mills be held to US labor and environment standards, they don't want the Chinese to improve, they just want me to be precluded from buying Chinese steel. When it was Japanese steel, it was 'dumping' (and what does free market theory say against that, anyway?)
When everyone plays by an "enforced set of rules," the new unwritten rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. Enter the lobbyists, who will help you rewrite the rules to your competitors' detriment (while simultaneously cashing your competitors' checks to lobby against YOU).
Don't get me wrong -- I don't believe in an unfettered free market except in widgets, but I've been watching the process long enough to know how regulated markets, inevitably, get gamed. If you give me uncorruptible, Solomon-like politicians, I'll give you fair regulated markets.
Ralph Cramdown | 01.02.09 - 12:57 am | #
The problem, of course, is that both regulated and unregulated markets get gamed. It's just a matter of degrees.
The truth is one of my nicknames in civilian life is "Cheese".
One wouldn't expect government cheese to be competitive in quality to private enterprise cheese. Of course they don't want you to like it too much, like prison or a mental institution. But it should deliver good protein with acceptable taste. What part of "safety net" is worse than a TARP?
OMG, it's moose milk cheese. The world's most expensive:
The World's Most Expensive Cheese: $500/lb - And It's Not Even French!
Think I'll stick with my secret guilty pleasure...truffle-stuffed brie.
Kaboom I'm in. Been dreaming it for years.
Comrade Kaboom writes:
"I'm a strong believer that now is the time to increase the gas tax $.50 nationally and use the money to build a high speed rail system up and down both coasts and two east-west lines, one north and one south. 200 mile an hour trains from Boston to Miami with 12-15 stops along the way would be exactly what we need."
We just voted to build such a train in California. We're supposedly going to pay for it by selling bonds and collecting money from Uncle "Subsidy" Sam. It will be like a Greyhound Bus with JATO bottles, speeding up and slowing down at every farm town bus bench between LA and SF. Another bunch 'O billions down the tubes.
You can't beat airplanes for trips over 400 miles or so, and under 400 miles, cars are a much better solution.
Trains are for Freight, Trix are for Kids.
Kaboom: I'd joy ride the thing constantly. Goodbye airport.
Democratic allocation of capital investment need not be perfect, just better than Wall Street.
tg is a born & bred dope in a | 01.02.09 - 12:54 am | #
I like that. Had to copy for friends. TY
sm_landlord, I'm inclined to agree with your sentiments so long as the number of flights are reduced to the minimum necessary to service the demand.
But I would like to see an increase in the gasoline tax just to remind people that the supply is finite and a whole lot of it does in fact come from people who don't like us very much.
"Use less gasoline."
"Theyre telling kids in schools here to save money and water if its yellow let it mellow. If its brown flush it down"
--Topher
Ever seen the results of that in practice?
Why don't we raise it to $1.00 so the train will go twice as fast. But if we raise it to $2.00, HOLY COW.
The problem, of course, is that both regulated and unregulated markets get gamed. It's just a matter of degrees.
sportsfan | 01.02.09 - 12:59 am | #
Which one maximizes individual freedom for the largest number of people?
Ralph,
Your comments tonight have been particularly wise.
Rocky
speeding up and slowing down at every farm town bus bench between LA and SF
sm_landlord | 01.02.09 - 1:03 am | #
Political expediency at its best. Otherwise we'd have a direct, non-stop "flight" that might be of some value.
"Use less gasoline."
--sportsfan
I agree. A lot of travel, both local and long distance, is really unnecessary. And could be done more efficiently where necessary.
I would not object to paying a higher gas tax as long as the money went to sensible transportation improvements, and not to the state general fund for the usual vote-buying and pandering exercises. Emphasis on sensible.
sm_landlord writes:
"Theyre telling kids in schools here to save money and water if its yellow let it mellow. If its brown flush it down"
--Topher
Ever seen the results of that in practice?
sm_landlord | 01.02.09 - 1:06 am | #
Yes.
Which one maximizes individual freedom for the largest number of people?
RockyR,
Is that the goal? Some would say that whichever system maximizes the greatest good for the largest number of people should be the goal.
Do you favor the individual or society?
We deserve the system we have and the resulting collapse.
I really don't understand this acceptance of the culture of corruption. I guess you think it's OK, as long as you personally don't get burned.
Niter, folks.
I disagree, I think air travel has its place, but for people moving in a highly populated corridor, high speed rail is the best way to go. There needs to be at least 100 miles between stations and large, easy access parking lots near every station. If you can get on a train within 20 minutes of leaving your house, unlike the 2+ hours it takes with the airport, many many people will choose the train.
You can't beat airplanes for trips over 400 miles or so, and under 400 miles, cars are a much better solution.
Passenger rail doesn't cancel 500 trains when three snowflakes appear over Chicago. It doesn't make me take my shoes off, and store all of my precious bodily fluids in three ounce bottles in baggies. It doesn't send my luggage to Newark by accident. It doesn't have a Department of Seat Pitch Minimization.
And, of course, in North America, it doesn't really exist.
That said, I may be taking the family to the West Coast this spring, and am seriously considering spending less than $3k on a ten year old Cadillac DeVille, to be sold again after the voyage. Surprisingly, the highway mileage isn't much worse than that of my much smaller car. It pains me greatly that this should be a viable option, but neither rail nor air deserve my dollars.
Do you favor the individual or society?
sportsfan | 01.02.09 - 1:12 am | #
Without a doubt, the individual. I believe doing what's best for the individual is what is best for the largest number of people... since, we are all individuals (unless your name is Jas and you believe in human ant colonies). I'm unabashedly a freedom-first advocate.
"If you give me uncorruptible, Solomon-like politicians, I'll give you fair regulated markets"
We might want to get crackin' on this one.
Agree with Rocky completely. You are getting down to the nitty gritty.
re: Bloomberg article on the insurance industry and McKinsey -- does anyone here have any personal experience with them? I asked an acquaintance who works there how they are compensated. His answer: "People ask us questions; we answer them." I asked someone I didn't know well a general question about how they're organized and he game me almost exactly the same answer.
This is the kind of thing you'll see coming out of governments for the next 3-5 years
The page cannot be found
Rode TGF from Paris to Lyon to Nice last year, total about 550 miles. Cheaper and faster for 2 people than renting a car. Comfortable, good food. Wifi coming soon.
"If you can get on a train within 20 minutes of leaving your house, unlike the 2+ hours it takes with the airport, many many people will choose the train."
--Comrade Kaboom
Big "if". Ever tried to get to Union Station in LA? Do you think the TSA will be any more efficient at train stations than they are at airports?
It might work on the East Coast, but it's a total non-starter in most of California.
RockyR,
We have a fundamental disagreement on that point since I place societal needs above that of the individual. Not that there aren't tons of people on both sides of the question.
Nor am I necessarily going to argue for the superiority of my position. That's not important. What is important is that I try to contribute more than I cost . . . every day.
âif it's yellow let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down"
Mayor "How'm I doing?" Koch's most memorable quotation, which he claimed to have originated.
Italy is warehousing cheese to support prices.
Might have to plan a trip there soon, I bet their government cheese is delicious (so long as it's not Camorra brand with radioactive vitamins)
Sportsfan: that works. Now all we have to do is figure out how to keep them from taking advantage of you.
Cost of the Iraq War to-date: $584,718,041,505
Gallons of finished motor gasoline used per year: 142,354,380,000
Time to pay off Iraq War with $0.50 gas tax: 8.2 years
Amount that average regular gas prices have fallen: $2.48
Well, I'm also a firm believer that the TSA needs to go away tomorrow, placebo security is worthless. And I think if they designed the stations and located them properly, they would work very well in California. San Diego to San Francisco in 4 hours is about the same as flight time when you include the airport hassle. Well designed cities would have public transit like Portland, OR, that drops you off right at the station.
sportsfan - thanks for stepping in. I was getting swamped.
Anonymous writes:
"This is the kind of thing you'll see coming out of governments for the next 3-5 years"
BC sure is pretty.
But I get your point. Maybe I should buy into a U.S. ad agency with "D" party connections.
In the newsreel era, this sort of thing would have been produced for movie theaters. Hmmm. Maybe invest in documentary filmmakers.
It's gonna be a Brave New World.
I want the personal freedom to buy an SEC regulated stock and have it not be a Ponzi scheme. I can't spend my life reading the prospectus.
It boils down to semantics.
Well, I'm also a firm believer that the TSA needs to go away tomorrow, placebo security is worthless.
It's been worse than a placebo. TSA and the whole Homeland Security Department has been an outright fraud, a smokescreen and nothing more.
If we allow 12 to 15 illegal immigrants in the country (as the current administration does), how can it possibly claim to be protecting the country from terrorists?
Rode TGF from Paris to Lyon to Nice last year, total about 550 miles. Cheaper and faster for 2 people than renting a car. Comfortable, good food. Wifi coming soon.
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:17 am | #
Spent close to a grand (near last-minute fare) riding the Eurostar from London to Paris with my spouse over the summer. The seats had no leg room (worse than domestic coach or SW Airlines), the entire train smelled terrible, expensive beverage car, extremely crowded, extremely dirty - enough one didn't want to touch things, seats very uncomfortable, dysfunctional toilets <g> and late... overall, NOT a good experience. We will fly next time.
The Virgin trains we rode within England were top-notch. Trains were incredibly nice, clean, great food (expensive still), on-time, smelled great, functioning toilets... I may ride one of these again over flying (I hate flying).
I've ridden the trains in the NE US, including Acela from NY to Philly. Acela is nice but slow. We don't seem to know how to do high-speed rail in the US. However, for the price and time spent, air is still better.
And, I hate to fly! Go figure.
I want the freedom to take a high speed train 250 miles instead of driving, so my grandkids will have a better planet. But I can't do it without thousands of human helpers.
I want the personal freedom to buy an SEC regulated stock and have it not be a Ponzi scheme. I can't spend my life reading the prospectus.
It boils down to semantics.
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:23 am | #
Corruption destroys freedom. We have to accept some regulation to reduce corruption and maximize freedom. On this, you and I agree. Please don't confuse these issues.
The free market will never build a high speed train.
Spent close to a grand (near last-minute fare) riding the Eurostar from London to P
RockyR | 01.02.09 - 1:27 am | #
Forgot to add: I had to wait in a long security line, take my shoes off, get X-rayed, and be checked in and "at the gate" 1-hour before scheduled departure.
That said, the worst transportation I've experienced yet in the world is Ryan Air.
RockyR writes:
"The Virgin trains we rode within England were top-notch. Trains were incredibly nice, clean, great food (expensive still), on-time, smelled great, functioning toilets... I may ride one of these again over flying (I hate flying)."
Ever been to Ireland?
The only thing worse than the national airline is the trains. Even their terrible roads are better than the airline and the rail system. And Ireland is supposed to be a "Euro-tiger" economy.
The free market will never build a high speed train.
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:31 am | #
What does that tell you about high speed trains?
Corruption destroys freedom. We have to accept some regulation to reduce corruption and maximize freedom. On this, you and I agree.
I think we all would agree with that.
The ultimate question becomes 'freedom to do . . . . (what?).
Yogi - as a grandparent myself, I am with you 100%
RockyR writes:
The free market will never build a high speed train.
1 currency soon [yogi] | 01.02.09 - 1:31 am | #
What does that tell you about high speed trains?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The free market also does not produce a road network. Marginal government intervention is necessary to allow for the success of both.
The only thing worse than the national airline is the trains. Even their terrible roads are better than the airline and the rail system. And Ireland is supposed to be a "Euro-tiger" economy.
sm_landlord | 01.02.09 - 1:31 am | #
Ireland had lovely people, but overall I was disappointed in the place. The entire country felt like a tourist trap. Ah... ain't the export of American culture great?