time to track pizza delivery futures

Only slightly OT -
Posted this on last thread right when the Mortgage Pig popped up - colleague just sent the link to this Depression-era cartoon, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit in "Confidence." Worth it to see an animated FDR singing (and walking):

Confidence! can lick this whole depression
Confidence! and wear the right expression
Smile, grin, and laugh right out loud,
and watch the golden sunshine scatter every cloud;

Confidence! Hey hey! it's our salvation
Confidence! the hope of this great nation
Teach it, preach it, count (?) it, shout it,
Confidence, just have confidence!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjGTCchapOk 

I noticed they went with the "serious Vikram" stipple portrait.

So how do they earn their way out from under $2T in decaying assets ?

Wind down.

They have a new marketing campaign slogan for Hispanics

"C - We can do it!"

It really is amazing. Even with a $25 billion equity infusion and $300+ billion of government guarantees, they still can't make it.

How much money will the taxpayers ultimately lose on Citigroup, I wonder?

How much money will the taxpayers ultimately lose on Citigroup, I wonder?
Nemo | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 3:45 pm | #

I'm in to sunk costs... My question is "Is it still cheaper to fold them and sell everything?"

As itty bitty tax payer I'm kind PO'd with all of this.....

........

Town hall meeting?

Junk divided into pieces still adds up to junk.

Junk divided into pieces still adds up to junk.
iceman | 01.13.09 - 3:49 pm | #

Not if you make up for it in volume.....

Eric, is your post clipping again? I tried reproducing the post you made on the last thread, and couldn't. I also notice that there's an extra line at the top of your post... Do you typically do anything besides just type in the text (paste from somewhere, use the backspace key alot...)?

ades --

It's the Super-SIV Mark III!

Eric, is your post clipping again?
Ken Cooper | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 3:51 pm | #

I think it clips if I don't hit enter after finishing a line before hitting publish

"... selected customers ..."

Is your money green? No amount is too small. We now love retail deposits. Where else is there any money left to lever up, to give us another throw of the dice?

Bernanke said the next step should be getting toxic assets, like those tied to subprime mortgages, off bank balance sheets -- the original intent of the Troubled Asset Relief Program funding.

Can you feel that american tax payer? That's what it feels like without lube.

emo is that 3x dumber than the first SIV? 

I think it clips if I don't hit enter after finishing a line before hitting publish
Eric | 01.13.09 - 3:52 pm | #

I tried that. I also notice that your posts typically have an extra line at the top. What version of CR Companion/FF are you using? And are you previewing before you publish?

“More capital injections and guarantees may become necessary to ensure stability and the normalization of credit markets."
lucifer | 01.13.09 - 3:53 pm | #

Whats that saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? 

FDIC: Speeches & Testimony - 1/13/2009
FDIC Speeches & Testimony

Statement of John F. Bovenzi, Deputy to the Chairman and Chief Operating Officer, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation on Priorities for the Next Administration: Use of TARP Funds Under the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008; Committee on Financial Services; U.S. House of Representatives, Room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building
January 13, 2009

foo,

But this is just the teaser, the movie has not yet opened.

//To summarize:
The city of Vancouver guaranteed a $1b condo development to be used initially as the Olympic Village in 2010, and now, surprise surprise, the housing bubble has burst, and the taxpayers are on the hook.
foo | 01.13.09 - 3:58 pm | #//

Recovery Plan
(Just kidding)

The median sale price of new homes sold in November was $220,400.
The total outstanding inventory is 4.27 million homes.

Spend 941,108,000,000 (941 billion) and buy every available home outstanding and then ...

burn 'em to the ground.

Was the market closed today ?

Citi is a level 3 corporation ... mark to make believe ...

It has over 30 trillions in derivatives ... JP Morgan over 80 trillions, BAC over 30 trillions ...

They are all insolvent and as the economy dives the go deeper underwater....

Stop Citi's charades:

Stop the Charade Nationalize Citi: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

He was touted as a great investor who knew what he was doing. Is that still the general opinion? LOL.
Hal | 01.13.09 - 4:01 pm | #

Like Buffet and his GS bet at $115 ?

I had a better return than Buffet in 2008. What's that make me?

\ti don't think the GS+Buffett story is over yet. He's getting 10% on his preferred stock and the $115 price is in the future. GS might well go up to that level and higher by the time he exercises his warrants.
Hal | 01.13.09 - 4:08 pm | #

I think the GS+Buffett story is not over for the other reason:  There will be haircuts for the preferred.

Everybody on Wall Street have made a "honest mistake".

Where's the bank Holiday ?

Citi is just the next implosion, not the last ...

Do you mind talking more about this on the CR Companion blog? I'm not sure it's CRC's issue, but would like to be clear on that.
Ken Cooper | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 4:04 pm | #

Just shot you an email.

"complexity of the tax laws"...this guy could afford the best tax lawyers money can buy...no excuse especially when you're working for an organization that has wierd tax payment rules. Maybe he just ran it through TurboTax and called it good.

Seems that the current milieu may be a great school for thieves. Just now it occurred to me that someone underwater on a house could walk away, then re-buy the house when it's in foreclosure.

Please give reasons for your answers.
Dumb as a banker | 01.13.09 - 4:20 pm | #

Trick question. Creating a trillion out of thin air inflates the current price of gold.

Citigroup is preparing to narrow its overall mission to two areas ... Laying off workers, and losing money.

Best laugh I had all day!

The Bourgeoisie and the proletariat.

that's a better marketing name.
Comrade Rally Monkey | 01.13.09 - 3:38 pm | #

Already taken... BNP

Something about Hong Kongers switching their assets prior to PRC takeover.
citizen Kung Fu Panda | 01.13.09 - 4:11 pm | #

Nah, that was just the "Rumble in the Bronx" bubble. Almost as stunning to see that snowcapped skyline in the "Bronx" as it was Jackie Chan's antics.

Well, maybe if Citi fails after 2 massive bailouts the Fed will get the hint that pouring money down a rathole doesn't help.
Fair Economist | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 3:59 pm | #

But the rats thank you. That counts for something, right?

Repost from Mish's commenter:

B. Bowman, RN, ATP says:

Today, 4:24:27 PM“I'm just reading this to my 7 y.o. son, and think it is appropriate...

excerpt from:
Handbook for Boys (Boy Scouts of America)
Fifth Edition 1957 (Total printed since 1910, 15,500,000)
page 28

"Our whole world is based on trusting other people. You trust the storekeeper from whom you buy your baseball mit to sell you a good one, and the manufacturer who made it to use honest materials. You trust the Postal Department when you put a stamp on your letter to deliver it for you. You trust the plumber who mends the kitchen sink to do a good job. Sometimes people fail in their trust, but they live up to it more often. Unless we trusted people the whole machinery of living would break down."

lucifer(Excellent) writes:
Why is this news not surprising?

Treasury Nominee Timothy Geithner Failed To Pay Personal Taxes, Check Housekeeper's Immigration Status: AP Source

Taxes are for the little people.

bgates(Unrated) writes:
it isn't like we weren't sold this package with relatively clear labels.

But he dropped references to important Baptist hymns in the speeches they wrote for him! Don't you see how important that is? =)

Interesting Times - I dont trust your source of informatio

Oh well. Two more reasons I never contemplated 'public' service.
Ross | 01.13.09 - 4:37 pm | #

Ross,

Are you saying you don't pay taxes and have an illegal housekeeper:)

A better way to put it-

We do not play by our rules, suckers like you do!

Taxes are for the little people.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 4:36 pm | #

~ For xxxx

Citi is a level 3 corporation ... mark to make believe ...

It has over 30 trillions in derivatives ... JP Morgan over 80 trillions, BAC over 30 trillions ...

They are all insolvent and as the economy dives the go deeper underwater....

"
Perhaps none more so, however, than J.P. Morgan. While its $77.2 trillion derivative exposure at the end of 2007 was down from the $91.7 trillion it held as of Sept. 30, 95.2% of which is traded over the counter, it’s a safe bet that J.P. Morgan would have suffered if Bear Stearns couldn’t fulfill its contractual obligations. After J.P. Morgan, the U.S. commercial banks with the largest derivatives exposure are Citibank, with $34 trillion, and Bank of America, with $32 trillion, according to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency."

BEAR CHURNS Bear Stearns deal boosts J.P. Morgan’s derivatives exposure - Financial Week

cd writes:
It- new a guy that went down to peru before the shining path got crazy...

Good thing erosion of those mountains won't be stopping anytime soon.

I bet there are a few hidden gems in the Rocky's too.

OT: I just posted a follow up (sort of) to yesterday's post on PCE and the economy. This one is on private fixed investment and the economy. It is posted here:

Investment and Recessions

would love to hear feedback from people here.

OT- Further job cuts. Today's announcements: Hutchinson cutting a total of 30% (!), FormFactor 20%, Sonus 4%, Kenneth Cole 10%. The bleeding continues.
Dave of SV | 01.13.09 - 4:24 pm | #

Hutchinson link... total of 1380 pretty high paid workers, 1000 in Minnesota [just west of MPLS].

Does Aldi have a presence in the U.S. besides Trader Joe's? Expansion of Trader Joe's would be a good thing - it's a great store. Even better would be a U.S. knock-off of its business model.

President-elect Barack Obama's choice to run the Treasury Department and lead the economic rescue effort disclosed to senators Tuesday that he failed to pay $34,000 in taxes from 2001 to 2004, a last-minute complication in an otherwise smooth path to confirmation.

Timothy Geithner paid most of the past-due taxes days before Obama announced his nomination in November, an Obama transition official said. The unpaid taxes were discovered by Obama's transition team while investigating Geithner's background, the official said.

Werner,

on my personal scale of crappy shops in Germany, Aldi is second.

Lidl holds a safe first place, while Norma is at number 3.

Maybe Aldi will break Walmart.

JP Morgan over 80 trillions, BAC over 30 trillions ...

They are all insolvent and as the economy dives the go deeper underwater....

It's not just housing that is sinking the banks. It's all the derivative bets too. In fact, given the trillions banks hold in derivatives, I'd say derivatives are actually the bigger problem. Look at AIG, they are a derivatives sewage treatment plant thanks to the government takeover.

The fed & treasury have provided way more than enough liquidity and capital to cover the mortgage mess.

We're being swindled to cover bad bets that had no economic purpose.

What a sham.

Aldi isn't so bad. At least they're not depressing to shop at like WalMart is. They're just small A&P sized stores, the size that groceries used to be back in the '70s (at least my local one is). You get in, grab your cheapo stuff and get out.

Good glod.

Spend a day working and get hopelessly far behind on CR!!

A lot of discussion as to what Berannke will or won't do but I am not sure he will be around. I recall that the Fed chairmanship is for four years and Bernanke took over 2/1/2006 so he has only a year to go in this term.

Will Obama reappoint a Bush Republican? He would not commit when asked in a recent interview. Probably depends on what Volcker whispers in his ear about next October and Volcker was snubbed by Reagan (after one reappointment) in favor of a more conservative Greenspan.

We shall see.

Jim

NC Jim,

5 years.

Nostrovia,

"is preparing to unveil a major reorganization"

Steps:

1. Sell off all valuable assets.
2. ?????
3. Make tons of profit.

Step 2 deals with stealing single socks randomly. Not totally worked out as yet.

Nostrovia,

Anonymous writes:
Citi + Morgan Stanley =
• Citi Morg (City Morgue)
• Citistan

HA! HA!

Reptillian:

In Fla, if you try to do that in the same name that was used on the mtg, any deficiency is still there, it comes back to haunt you. Only real significance to deficiencies so far here.

Whats that saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? 
nades | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 3:55 pm | #

What are your suggestions though?  From my perspective we can either nationalize the banks and recapitalize them or do what Bernanke says with a kind of "bad bank" solution.  I don't really see any another realistic option.

The former will be criticized as socialism (which it is) by many here and the other is being criticized for being overly generous to  banks by the same folks.  Because of potential worldwide CDS issues it seems politically much easier for the U.S. to adopt the Bernanke solution.  Otherwise I tend to think that it would have to happen under a G20 umbrealla which involves complex and time consuming negatiations and loss of face!

I don't see that there is a simple solution and still comprehensive solution but I'd welcome any realistic suggestions.

lawyerliz writes:
Reptillian:

In Fla, if you try to do that in the same name that was used on the mtg, any deficiency is still there, it comes back to haunt you. Only real significance to deficiencies so far here.
lawyerliz | 01.13.09 - 5:37 pm | #

I'm learnin'.
When in Fla, must line-up a new name before the re-buy.

Dirk, the pathname for the chart in your article about recessions and fixed investment needs a . before the bmp. My browsers are refusing to load it. (I had to download the image file and fix the pathname in the copy on my drive to see your chart.)

If a derivatives trader takes a $20 million salary this would not be listed as a derivatives exposure but a labor cost. I don't understand your point.

Yep, you just buy under corp name, or a trustee's name. Doesn't often happen.

I don't need supporting documentation, it is self evident. A swap is an agreement between two parties to make payments to each other in the future. By definition, any payment made by another party is received by another party. It's not like I can agree to pay you $1 but yet somehow you receive $2. Thus, all derivatives exposures would net out to zero.

Now that doesn't mean that all derivatives exposures will eventually be paid. If someone goes bankrupt for example they don't (necessarily) pay. So you can have derivatives exposure that looks good but that has credit risk built into it. This was the AIG problem -- they made bets that they couldn't pay on. But if a counterparty doesn't pay the other party doesn't receive either so the net is still zero.

Now of course a specific party can make bad bets and lose everything. Perhaps citi has done so.

But if you take all of the dealers and all of the hedge funds and all of the cities and insurance companies and everyone and take all their swaps and add them up, the net exposure is zero. Thus throwing around bit gross exposure numbers is a useless exercise in my opinion.

"It's not just housing that is sinking the banks. It's all the derivative bets too. In fact, given the trillions banks hold in derivatives, I'd say derivatives are actually the bigger problem. Look at AIG, they are a derivatives sewage treatment plant thanks to the government takeover.

The fed & treasury have provided way more than enough liquidity and capital to cover the mortgage mess.

We're being swindled to cover bad bets that had no economic purpose.

What a sham."
Angry Saver

~~~~~~

Exactly Correct ... Bad Bets with no economic purpose being covered with tax payer money !

Where's the Bank Holiday ?

Welcome to Calvinball. My turn!
Comrade Terry | 01.13.09 - 5:27 pm | #

LOL. but hell, it's a good theoretical exercise... I don't think game theorists have studied one-sided games where one party gets to make the rules and the other gets to follow them. speaking of which, this suddenly makes me wonder about the marriage statistics of game theorists...

I don't see that there is a simple solution and still comprehensive solution but I'd welcome any realistic suggestions.

RE

~~~~

A Bank Holiday ... until we get our arms around the whole problem it will be like pouring money down a rat hole ...

Bad derivative bets with no economic purpose being covered with tax payer money !

Where's the bank Holiday ?

Dope Alert | 01.13.09 - 6:03 pm | #

Your chosen handle provides a valuable public service, for which you should be commended.

Where's the bank Holiday ?

Bank Holidays

"In the case of a bank like citi a lot of the derivatives exposure is probably to hedge funds and is basically the equivalent of a loan. My guess is that the larger derivative numbers are more likely a strength then an encumberance, although I admit that it probably varies widely by party. I'd rather own JPM's derivatives book than Citi's."
Loudocracy

~~~~~

But, you haven't a clue.No one does. Isn't it necessary to have a Bank Holiday to sort this mess out ? They are using tax payer money to cover their losses !

Where's the Bank Holiday ?

Loudacracy,

It took Buffett 4 years & $400 million to unwind one of his insurance unit's derivatives books. He concluded that there is no way all parties are valuing derivatives equally and fairly. That was in 2002 if I recall, prior to bubble in derivative stupidity.

One more thing. Is Dennis Kneale your favorite commentator on the financial entertainment network? Just wondering.

Spend a day working and get hopelessly far behind on CR!!
lawyerliz | 01.13.09 - 5:26 pm | #

That'll teach you - NO MORE WORK!!!

Of the uncovered positions, some of them do net out, as for the rest it depends on counterparty settlement completion and the bias amongst the uncovered positions.

Can you expand on this? Are you saying that if a counterparty goes bankrupt in the midst of settlement you could have a bankruptcy or are you getting at something else entirely?

Alas, I must work, in order to have a source of info to post on CR.
lawyerliz | 01.13.09 - 6:11 pm | #

We're always up for squirrel recipes. 

Valuation: yes valuations differ and that is why PnL is so bogus. But in the end people have to settle with actual cash. I like you're point though, which is that crazy valuations could lead to both parties claiming profits for now and then later one comes up short.

Bookie vig: this is basically counted in the exposure. There is not a separate vig payment outside of the swap exposure. I do agree though that it all comes down to credit risk. If you are using the notionals to assess credit risk there is some value to that. But you should really be considering other factors as well such as how different trades net out (i buy cds and sell cds two different days, both trades have notional exposure but no real exposure) and also who the credit risk is to, etc. I don't think that saying that JPM has 80 gazillion in derivatives exposure means that they have 80 gazillion in credit risk. They might have more but probably have less.

I'd rather own JPM's derivatives book than Citi's."
Loudocracy

But, you haven't a clue.No one does.

I have some clue. I can look at my own derivatives book and exposures to JPM and Citi and start making guesses. But you are right, I don't really know. I think that the Fed probably has somewhat of a clue.

Eric(Very Good) writes:
\tWhere's the bank Holiday ?
mmckinl | 01.13.09 - 6:04 pm | #

You get one on Monday.    Satisfied?
Eric | 01.13.09 - 6:06 pm | #

RO

i buy cds and sell cds two different days, both trades have notional exposure but no real exposure) and also who the credit risk is to, etc. I don't think that saying that JPM has 80 gazillion in derivatives exposure means that they have 80 gazillion in credit risk. They might have more but probably have less.
Loudocracy | 01.13.09 - 6:13 pm | #

The problem is that you probably bought and sold from 2 different parties, and if party A defaults to you then you might end up defaulting to party C. This is a huge potential diasy chain and nobody is sure how many breaks in that chain can be sustained w/o the whole house of cards coming down. Now if they all went through a central exchange, like say copper futures, then people would be more confident about the situation, since everyone would have the same counter party, the exchange itself. I would like to see a moratorium on new CDS writing and existing CDS brought onto a central exchange somehow to wind these suckers down.

Last one under the TARP is a ...

Here's another trillion or so:

Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found

Basically what Loudacracy is saying, is that if you just took the physical contracts, in legal PAPER terms(the actual written instrument) and brought them all to an incinerator at the bottom of 45 wall st, they'd cease to exist.
Baby Jas | 01.13.09 - 6:22 pm | #

True, but how does that help??  You could do the same with every exchange-traded put and call.

The losers would surely like this solution.   The winners, eh, not so much.

Aldi is a warehouse concept with a European small store flavor.  It will only be a threat to Walmart in the U.S. once living with a single option for each item becomes acceptable.  That single item is priced VERY aggressively but it will take the U.S. consumer quite a bit of time to adjust to having no brand choice.
RE | 01.13.09 - 6:08 pm | #

I've been in Aldi Stores - they are around here... I don't see them being a huge threat to Wally at all. They fill a niche - one Wally isn't going to bust its ass to get into [smaller local discount stores]. Also 'brand choice' doesn't cost that much more UNLESS the brands are pressing for margin - jacking up prices. In recessions they get ratcheted back too - always have. The operational efficiency of limited selection worked well when orders were over the phone & sku's recorded w/ pencil & paper. Now with big global ERP - it costs almost nothing to expand brand span IF the items sell - they are constantly shuffling mix to max the sell.

I have seen similar models to Aldi all my life [warehouse foods being one I especially remember and loathe]... Aldi won't go away and neither will Wally. They will compete on the fringes of each others niche. I don't see Wally losing sleep or much business.

He's saying we should ignore the AIG fiasco, all the housing and mark to myth fraud, the trillions in bailouts & guarantees and put out apples for Rudolf and the other reindeer on Xmas eve.
Angry Saver | 01.13.09 - 6:26 pm | #

I still don't see why the courts can't get these guys under RICO.  All that needs to be shown is that they're suspected of violating any 2 of the following:
    * Any violation of state statutes against gambling, murder, kidnapping, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in the Controlled Substances Act);
    * Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
    * Embezzlement of union funds;
    * Bankruptcy or securities fraud;
    * Drug trafficking;
    * Money laundering and related offenses;
    * Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
    * Acts of terrorism.

Likely violations: bribery, theft, embezzlement, fraud, and/or money laundering.
Indicted on any two, and their assets could be frozen, denying them the high priced lawyers these scumbags typically use to skate out of these sorts of offences.
There's always hope-

They will compete on the fringes of each others niche. I don't see Wally losing sleep or much business.
dryfly | 01.13.09 - 6:29 pm | #

I agree.  Walmart, even with its marginally attractive layout, is still a shopping experience.  Aldi is getting a chore done.

I've seen Aldis in the Chicago area but have never been in one in the U.S.  However, from my extensive German exposure, I can say that it is an unique experience to stand in the long Aldi checkout lanes.  As the shopping aisles are quite narrow and the checkout lanes blend directly into the aisles, maneuvering in tight spaces becomes an important shopping skill. 

I will say that Aldi checkout personnel is the most efficient I have ever seen.  Simply amazing!  Costco personnel are amateurs in comparison.

The problem is that humans use the considerable intellectual abilities to further their "ape" agenda.
lucifer | 01.13.09 - 6:04 pm | #

yes and yes. this is an EVOLUTIONARY endgame, which ultimately ends in annihilation not transcendence. human evolution hasn't prepared us to face a world other than that of zero-sum games of competition for limited resources. the inability to consider systematic thought, the "long view" and the incompetence we exhibit with nonlinearities of open, complex and interconnected systems is our undoing and these higher orders of thinking will not abide being enslaved to the mammalian evolutionary brain for long. thus we reach a critical point and failing to move beyond the limitations of our biological conditioning, we self-destruct. it is only a matter of whether this point in history is such a moment or merely another among many blips. the genetic programming of the dna-tape-loop and social conditioning and redirection of natural instinct can only take us so far.

I understand this may be perceived as crazy talk to many, but you need only look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for example, to see that we as a social organism are failing to move "up", and in turn to help others do the same. nature operates inexorably and at levels beyond mere genetics of family or even species. moreover it is not accidental that it is becoming increasingly commonplace for those of high intelligence to opt against marriage or couples toward smaller families or against offspring altogether, and not merely out of economic necessity. what exactly have the winners won but a dead hunk of rock and a bunch of useless paper if they plunge civilization into a new dark age?

Well, the bears were right about one thing: Society is breaking down, and it started right here on this blog.

The points made by poster "loudocracy" are completely reasonable. The bearish argument that banks have deca-trillions in exposure is technically true, but not in the sense that they are on the hook for deca-trillions that they don't have. The total of all those positions may not net-out at zero, but that's a lot closer to the truth than what the bears imply.

As to his/her point about the Fed having a clue, of course it does. The Fed started bailing water out of the boat as soon as it became aware of the problem, calling on all the resources it possibly could.

Complain all you want about the fact that the Fed can't predict or control the future, but not about the fact that they're clueless.

Sebastian

"Geithner voluntarily amended for returns for years 2001 and 2002 after President-elect Barack Obama had expressed his intention to nominate him for the top Treasury post."

Good thing...initiating an audit of the Treas Sec is a good way for an IRS employee to get themselves fired in a hurry.

I guess he was hoping the IRS would forget about those years...

Have you read the story behind Aldi?  The Albrecht brothers started the "ALbrecht DIscount" stores to serve the needs of a country in the midst of depression (i.e., pre-Hitler Germany) -- limited selection of basic, quality goods at absolute rock bottom prices.  Looks like their time has come again.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 01.13.09 - 6:43 pm | #

Ya but read Wally's past - small rural retailer bringing value to the heartland blah, blah. What have you done for me lately?

In reality - today - they both fill a niche. One a small local & the other a larger 'sub-regional'. I don't see much overlap if you plotted their 'market space' on a 'venn diagram'... cheap prices are only one dimension and both tackle that from different directions.

As to his/her point about the Fed having a clue, of course it does. The Fed started bailing water out of the boat as soon as it became aware of the problem, calling on all the resources it possibly could.

Sebastian

~~~~~

Sure ... the privately owned and operated Fed started bailing their shareholders, the Member Banks, right away ... at the tax payers expense !

Where's the Bank Holiday ?

Uh guys-
Trader Joes= Aldi.

Just so you know.

Someday this war's gonna end...

I quit Slashdot a couple of years ago. A lot of noise and rehash and atrocious story selection. The site ran on its rep for a while IMO. Now I troll CR instead:)...compared to CR, /.'s editors are monkeys or poorly written IRC bots.

It's my distinct impression that Loudocracy may know more about derivatives than most of us dopes on this thread. If everyone wasn't so busy yelping in their agrieved and righteous anger, we might learn something. Just sayin'.

MLM | Homepage | 01.13.09 - 6:59 pm | #

Tough to dismiss the fact the worldwide notional value of all derivatives is bumping 1 quadrillion. And that's a lot of jack, no matter how you count it. The counter parties are leaning against each other like a house of cards. Trite? Cliche? Yes. But true. This is where the cascade effect will gain momentum.

See, it's not who they are, it's what they did that will spark the reaction. And the reaction will cascade similarly.

It's my distinct impression that Loudocracy may know more about derivatives than most of us dopes on this thread. If everyone wasn't so busy yelping in their agrieved and righteous anger, we might learn something. Just sayin'.

MLM

~~~~

Wrong ... Until the books are audited no one knows ... We don't even know where the TARP money went !

Are we just going to keep throwing money down a rat hole ?

Where's the Bank Holiday ?