As a certifiable Alfa Romeo nut (3 in the garage, all more or less functional) I hope this means we get us some nice new Alfas here someday. Who will be able to buy them? Who knows.
Funny story abt the x19 bertone, it had the trunk in the front (like a vw bug) and I once stashed a mini-weber in there following a tailgating session. After the game, the grill was still hot, and I ended up burning my ass when I sat on the hood.
...no less than 14 of Fiat's 20 Italian plants will be closed through mid-January while 48,000 blue-collar workers of the 80,000 employees workforce will benefit from a longer holiday...
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)...
How will Fiat take advantage of Chrysler's dealership network? U.S. laws prevented DMBZ from pursuing that original goal when it bought up Chrysler. I see no reason why the situation will be different for Fiat.
Oh god, I made the mistake of going to that forum community which is obsessed with a birdflu outbreak, singtomeohmuse. This was the WRONG decision; now I'm looking into fallout shelters and covering my family members with bactine.
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)... supafly73 | 01.19.09 - 11:49 pm | #
They also make pretty good small diesels as do many of those 'Old Europeans'.
All Fiat jokes aside, yeah, I too well recall the 70's and 80's crap from Italy. Fiat today, is a pretty impressive company, with highly regarded and highly rated marquees in its portfolio.
To boot, pun intended, many of these are exactly the kind of fuel efficient small cars Americans will likely embrace when energy costs resume their inevitable climb back to the stratosphere.
Might make a LOT more sense than sticking Benz badges on crappy SUV's built in Alabama.
Won't someone put Chrysler out of its misery? Please!
This deal is kind of confusing. Why doesn't Fiat just buy the damn factory and retool it? Chrysler has a bunch they no longer need with the labor to match. Why the equity position instead? If Chrysler BKs the retooled factory is sold off to pay the creditors and the equity is as worthless as it is now.
Having owned Ferraris, Lambos etc., the only Italian car that ever worked well for me was an Alpha. Italians design perdy cars but the Germans make sturdy cars.
Just my experience. Porsche twin turbo=Valhala......
Why doesn't Fiat just buy the damn factory and retool it? Chrysler has a bunch they no longer need with the labor to match. Why the equity position instead?
You don't think the factory is already secured to the hilt? Much cheaper to retool then pay off the debt on it. Basically, there's no skin in the game for Chrysler except for a worthless equity stake.
It's like getting a contractor to repaint your house that's $200K underwater on the promise that he gets 35% of the profit when you sell it.
Well, maybe moving your grandpapa's factory into China and only keeping the headquarter was not actually that clever after all, yes? supafly73 | 01.20.09 - 12:01 am | #
You don't understand. We've moved on to creating and building "platform companies" for the 21st century now:
"Nevertheless, if investors do buy into our belief that the combination of an unprecedented monetary loosening, fiscal easing and low oil prices will help the US and Asian economies recover by the second half of 2009, then any significant dip in equity markets over the coming months should be seen as a buying opportunity."
Well, maybe moving your grandpapa's factory into China and only keeping the headquarter was not actually that clever after all, yes?
supafly73 | 01.20.09 - 12:01 am | #
we're so damn clever we convinced ourselves that a bunch of heads could live forever without bodies, just renting the cheapest ones available until they wore out.
Great, my neighbour opposite has a 20 year old Fiat ( dunno what, he always calls it a Fiat ) soft-top that I'm often helping him repair - trivial things like turn the ignition on while he's peeking under the bonnet or pump the brakes while looks somewhere..
I'm gonna tell him "nice Chrysler you got there" tomorrow. Then run back across the street.
By getting Chrysler to make their cars, Fiat jumps right into the American market; they use Chrysler's regulatory expertise and distribution/supply networks. At least whatever's left when they finally retool.
You don't understand. We've moved on to creating and building "platform companies" for the 21st century now: MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:12 am | #
I called BS on that too on a couple different forums a number of years ago and had the economic wing of Neocon USA jump down my throat every chance they got. 'Platforms Companies' bah - that has worked out about as well as I expected. Gavekal should have sold MBS -they would have made a killing.
At Cerberus, we have a long-term investment horizon and focus on value creation. We invest in undervalued companies and their people, and help them to realize their potential. We partner with our portfolio companies to help them become industry leaders. We believe competition makes the global economy more productive and more efficient, which enables companies to succeed long-term in the globally competitive marketplace. We encourage our companies to focus on the future through prudent capital investment, R&D, new product marketing, talent development, improved operations and appropriate strategic acquisitions.
My first piece of motorized transport was a used Cushman Eagle. Never forgave my dad for that one. I worked my butt off the next summer to trade up to a Vespa.
Vespas are making a comeback in the US now that they are EPA compliant. I always remember Greg Peck in "Roman Holiday."
There's an eerie reminder here for me of the bad old days in the UK 68-79 and the restructuring ( NOT!) of the UK car "industry" - British Leyland - gawd, I get shivers recalling all that..
Puhleeze, not that again - but given the govt. we have now - I expect bailouts, chip butties( well maybe not THAT) at the White House with union leaders, late night emergency talks, YET another deal hammered out.. and of course billions of MY money down the drain.
Great read on critical thinking and the need for some to believe in conspiracy theories.
It ain't all that. Not that he does not have a point but sometimes it comes down you have to believe in unbelievable stupidity or someone had an agenda. The USS Liberty for example. I have spent some time at sea. It was impossible in my opinion for the Israelis not to know what they were firing at. Dead In The Water - The Sinking of the USS Liberty
If it was up to me, I'd prefer to take the hit out of 40% margins instead of 3% margins. But everybody's going to be feeling it one way or the other. MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:40 am | #
That 40% margin had quite a bit of positive economic impact in the U.S. All that will be lost.
I was wondering about platform companies a few days ago. I actually still believe that it is a net negative.
RE | 01.20.09 - 12:34 am | #
Absolutely they are net negatives - they think the 'IP' is what is valuable... well it is but it isn't usually the patentable stuff that's the critical ingredient - it's the PROPRIETARY things you learn making the stuff & managing those programs & processes. You don't capture much of that in a platform... but your 'platform partner' sure does. I had a bunch of investment types tell me I was all wrong - like they'd ever started up a plant or even knew what one was. It's one thing to have the 'big idea' a whole other thing to actually make it work and deliver the product AT A PROFIT product release cycle after product release cycle.
If it was up to me, I'd prefer to take the hit out of 40% margins instead of 3% margins. But everybody's going to be feeling it one way or the other. MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:40 am | #
MLM,
My link to the GaveKal piece a few days ago was bad. The quote actually was from that article.
... Who would you rather be? The Chinese and other Asian companies that make the iPod at a 2-3% margin? Or Apple who sells it at a 40% margin?... In addition to issues that dryfly mentioned, what was a benefit then now is a drawback for the U.S. economy because that 40% profit that the platform company earned now has disappeared.
You don't capture much of that in a platform... but your 'platform partner' sure does. dryfly | 01.20.09 - 12:47 am | #
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it. If you're talking about networking gear ala Nortel, well their gross margins showed it too.
However, in both cases the trend was the same -- platform partners capturing a larger and larger percentage of the margins to be had, over time.
For such a laughable company it sure is amazing how well Fiat have adapted around the globe. I'd buy a nuovo 500 for sure. I don't think it's a good idea for them to take Chrysler but I assume they're looking at trying an approach similar to what they've done in South America. The pure export-to-USA approach with the necessity of setting up a dedicated dealer network was something they were never able to pull off adequately. Fiat's worst enemy in the US in the 70s was their dealer network. Let's use the X1/9 example, since others have mentioned it: how long do you think wheel bearings last on an all-independent suspended car when the dealers don't follow the factory's instruction to align the wheels before handing the cars over to new owners?
I agree with Tim & the American Miracle on one thing. Lancia should be put out of its misery. That was a fine company when it was independent. As a badge-engineered Fiat it's sad. And Alfa is slowly sinking into the same state: they make prettier and flashier Fiats. They've done a nice job with Maserati though!
I had a bunch of investment types tell me I was all wrong - like they'd ever started up a plant or even knew what one was. It's one thing to have the 'big idea' a whole other thing to actually make it work and deliver the product AT A PROFIT product release cycle after product release cycle. dryfly | 01.20.09 - 12:47 am | #
I learned early. Aerospace exotic fasteners with things like tapered shafts and cold rolled threads. The guy (a dozen years or more) on the thread roller asked for 40¢/hr more and was denied. Three weeks and a missed contract and nobody could figure out how to set up and get quality parts. The guy left for something like $2/hr more to a competitor.
In addition to issues that dryfly mentioned, what was a benefit then now is a drawback for the U.S. economy because that 40% profit that the platform company earned now has disappeared. RE | 01.20.09 - 12:55 am | #
I think I'd disagree, subject to getting schooled by you and dryfly. The fixed costs for the 3%ers are going to kill them as revenues drop. The 40%ers have the luxury of some wiggle room. The problem is that the knock on effects from the drop in revenues will cause lots of problems for the 40%ers too -- all the people that indirectly lived off of that 40% (the service economy) aren't going to be happy.
Agree that most platform companys suck. My son values patents, IP as well as doing M&A expert opinions. He has worked for the likes of MMM and in his opinion, it takes super deep pockets to defend your 'platform'.
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it. If you're talking about networking gear ala Nortel, well their gross margins showed it too. MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:56 am | #
No - they are thinking two cycles ahead. It's fine to make 2% margin this cycle if you gain the expertise to capture the higher margin 'next cycle'. The big mistake a lot of the Asian Tigers made was thinking they could send their brainiacs to the US & European graduate schools and the IP would 'trickle down' to their masses and they would ale be rich... the problem was you can't trickle the really critical knowledge down... the knowledge to actually make the stuff. The only way you do that is have people do it - have them grow up in the environment working factory floors and learning. China is doing that now and doing it well - they are a generation away from having a 'deep bench' - enough basic skills across the board but they are getting there. Meanwhile we aren't back filling our bench except in 'retail' and 'finance'.
That is a bigger problem than the often cited 'failing schools' meme... and the 'Platform' concept is a center piece used to justify this 'failure' as a 'good thing'. It will cost us dearly going forward.
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it. MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:56 am | #
I have always wondered how quickly Huawei positioned itself in that space. Obviously Cisco was concerned about that, too. It looks to me that Huawei got access to Cisco IP/source code.
Agree that most platform companys suck. My son values patents, IP as well as doing M&A expert opinions. He has worked for the likes of MMM and in his opinion, it takes super deep pockets to defend your 'platform'. Ross | 01.20.09 - 1:04 am | #
I would love to lift a few w/ your son & share horror stories I can't share here.
doubt so, it says "Fiat" not alfa. Yoringe | 01.19.09 - 11:42 pm | #
I know I'm coming in late, but I just assumed that folks knew that Fiat has controlled Alfa since the mid-late '80s. Thanks for reminding me how obscure my obsession really is. I'll go away and tinker on my Giulia Super now.
A Renault "Le Car" and a Citroen something which looks like the successor to the 2CV Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 1:07 am | #
That is a Deux Cheveaux (i.e 2CV) just a later model. the 2CV was produced from 1948 to 1990. I actually loved to drive them. I drove one where the wiper speed was tied to the speedometer. That was just fine on the highway but terrible on mountain passes in the rain or snow as the 2CV would crawl up a hill with the wiper hardly moving.
To cope with such "emergencies" you had a handle on the left that you could turn to increase the speed manually. It was solid dual action at that point... I loved it though!
Just wanted to say I had the chance to spend 2 hours with my mom and go over her retirement portfolio tonight. She has a no sales commission CFA rep at the bank, but that person is just an average CFA rep who depends on the market to do the work making them look good.
There are few things that I take more seriously than family member's money. I make a very big point of separating family and friends from business, so not that money is a problem but I am very serious about in on principal alone.
The one thing I wanted to share was now that it is done, I feel very good about it.
Obviously I didn't have carte blanche given it is a registered account, there were a couple mutual fund family tie ups about redemption penalties the CFA never disclosed before, and she is near retirement. But I think it (will be) in a pretty darn safe to strong position w.r.t. risk and a falling market -- so I sleep well tonight
They stole it, bugs and all. Cisco sued them with at least some success. MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 1:16 am | #
Meanwhile next cycle...
BTW - I am already running into companies that will NOT move their important new programs overseas... only mature product. And even then there are 'components' inside those products that they insist be either manufactured here or at the very least not in one place, or even in one country so as to break up the opportunity to understand the 'basics'. This is more important for 'low technology' products like low emission high performance engines as it is for 'high technology' products like routers [btw that is some snark - few products are a 'high tech' as low e high p engines - but most wouldn't know it]. The reason: The product cycles are pretty long for an engine - you really don't want to let your eventual competitor learn the tricks too early on in the product cycle. Platformers really can't do that, can't defend the proprietary because they don't even know how to make their own products or what is 'important'. They can defend th epatentable but that isn't enough - understand the proprietary well enough and you walk around the patentable. Many are dead men walking and don't know it.
No - they are thinking two cycles ahead. It's fine to make 2% margin this cycle if you gain the expertise to capture the higher margin 'next cycle'. dryfly | 01.20.09 - 1:07 am | #
Would love to discuss further with you dryfly, but it's late here. All I'll say is that running an 80% GM company leads you to drastically different conclusions about what you should focus on, as compared to running a 3% company. I still remember a meeting with a company looking at buying mine where they explained just how much cost they could cut out of our product -- I then pointed out that with all that work they would have taken our margins from 80% to 82%. Sort of like telling Microsoft you can revolutionize their business by cutting the cost of their packaging.
That said, I agree with your comments about having a deep bench. Or any bench. Over the past 20 years, we let our best prospects get drafted onto the cheerleading squad.
[btw that is some snark - few products are a 'high tech' as low e high p engines - but most wouldn't know it]. dryfly | 01.20.09 - 1:27 am | #
I was ready to fire off on all cylinders on that until you made it clear you were snarking. Just try and reverse engineer a vapor deposited ceramic low friction high temperature coating from the finished product. Back in the 80s we had some Japanese execs visit the fastener plant I mentioned previously. They had extra soft heels in their shoes and picked up "samples" near a machine center just so they could find the temper we used in process (something you cannot find out from a finished product).
... [21 February 2008] According to the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Huawei moved up 9 places to become the 4th largest patent applicant under the WIPO Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT), with 1,365 applications published in 2007, following Matsushita, Philips Electronics N.V. and Siemens. ...
Just wanted to share the anecdote. Most everyone here has family, and they probably worry for them if they're not market adept.
The point was to give encouragement for others to put in some work, rest their head on the chopping block, and be rewarded by knowing that their family member's saved years of work are looked after with due respect.
Imagine what it must feel like to know someone has put in 40 years of work, let's say saved 40% of their pay, and then lost 25% on those savings in the past year alone (not my case, but probably a very common example).
That represents 4 years of work. They would have been better off with a vacation or having spent it.
Then imagine what they feel like when their CFA cannot explain it, so they perpetually avoid the problem.
Then consider the possibility that we are only half way down for equity markets.
I was ready to fire off on all cylinders on that until you made it clear you were snarking. Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 1:34 am | #
LOL - I almost left it out to see if you'd jump on it. I figured you &/or mp were about the only people here who would get it. BTW I walk around factories w/ an Ironman digital watch w/ 100 splits. Think 'cycle times'.
... [21 February 2008] According to the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Huawei moved up 9 places to become the 4th largest patent applicant under the WIPO Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT), with 1,365 applications published in 2007, following Matsushita, Philips Electronics N.V. and Siemens. ...
RE | 01.20.09 - 1:38 am | #
It's called patent bracketing. It's how the US lost out in so many electronics fields like VCRs and magnetic recording.
dryfly
The good factories record the process times for you
The slogans all over creep me out though. I also get the feeling the organic robots resent me when I've been through plants. A lot of them are on coke though so I don't take it personally
** accidentally clicked post, part 2 of the autoworker career post
I mean it's a step up from working in a poultry processing plant (the smell is unimaginable, worse than a fish plant), but I don't think the auto worker jobs are a sector that we should be prepared to defend over the next 50 years
I guess I don't know what will replace them, maybe maintenance for the robots that make other robots? but better to adapt over time than face a sudden shock
Comrade Knifecatcher, I put both my thumbs up to you and your Giulia Super. flaminia | 01.20.09 - 1:34 am | #
Ah, a fellow sufferer. The Super's a '67, off the road since '84, close to being back in action. It's a dorky looking little box, but I love it. Mrs. Knifecatcher gave me the green light recently to pick up a very nice '60 Giulietta Spider - purchased, to keep this on topic, from a Chrysler designer.
The good factories record the process times for you
Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 1:46 am | #
Not at the detail I'm interested in - there is usually a step or an operation I'm really curious about inside the overall cycle and the 'charts' don't usually break that out... just overall takt times & such. Only one way to verify - measure it and do it a few times to average.
Shnaps writes:
my first car was an x19.
I beat you, my first car was an 850. 2 years life cycle = after 2 years all the parts of the car have already needed replacement, but it was fun to drive... may be too much fun, my friends had nicknamed it Sayonara (as in what would happen to me in case of an accident). Few would climb on board with me a second time. But the same car with improved reliability and crash resistance would be sellling well IMO, much more fun than a Nissan Sentra or T. Corrola.
Porsche was actually pretty crap in the 80's too but they shaped up during 90's.
supafly73
What junk? The early 924s? actually even these were quite reliable and fun... I drove one for 12 years daily and half a million miles (after the Fiat) and NEVER saw a tow truck (but I am vey good at preventative care... learned with the Fiat)
but even I have upgraded since then though, and knowing that the 924 was the worse Porsche ever made pretty much sold me the make for life
...'low technology' products like low emission high performance engines...
I'm really glad that was written by dryfly, so I can safely assume it is a sarcasm-laden comment and not lose complete hope in CR's commentship.
As far as this "silicon" guy is concerned, (competent) mechanical design is AT LEAST as high tech as cranking out yet another freakin' Windows application or yet another IP router. And actually building shit - pretty much any shit - is more "high tech" than sitting in a cubicle writing white papers and publishing patents.
I work for a company that distributes electricity among other things. We are in the nascent stage of a solar pv project that is fairly public, necessarily we get much solicited and unsolicited attention from pv manufacturers. Recently, we had one group approach us about buying its product at a very attractive price. The group was backed by this and that venture capital firms with all the right pedigrees. As the conversation continued, we learned that the group did not currently manufacture any pv panels but was in the process of selecting the technology it would manufacture. When we asked how the group could promise to deliver pv panels at the quoted price the group responded that all it needed was the contract and that the manufacturing part was the easy part. We declined stating that as a big old smelly electric company we don't buy serial numbers 0001 - 0999. So my question is, are there others in other industries that are also coming across these groups armed with spreadsheets and not experience?
Like I said above - understand the proprietary and it isn't long before you can walk around the patentable.
Last two startups were bought by companies who thought all you needed was a slice of "fundamental" IP and the dollars would just up and walk themselves straight to your bank account. Could not get them to understand that trying to snooker a high-dollar license fee was the surest way to incentivize potential licensees into rolling their own and either surrouding it with such a thick IP fence of their own that "fundamental" starts to resemble "Masada", or working around the issue entirely.
If you aren't a credible threat to actually build what you've invented, you're making yourself a target.
dryfly, do you work with a ergonomic process modelling suite? I know what you mean though for cutting slack time
I'm not a factory guy myself, and I forget the name of the one I know a couple auto plants use...
on a macro level, it's a very beautiful evolution that includes refinements and improvements
on a micro level, it would be entirely demoralizing to a guy on the floor to know how soon they will be replaced and at what cost Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 2:00 am | #
No I don't - I work w/ the suppliers to the OEMs.
As far as all the workers going away - I say 'yes' and 'no'... I see more smart automation not so much full automation - where there is human machine interface and don't see a lot of total 100% 'brain dead' automation. Full automation is out there but not as common as you would expect - need pretty high volume and low variation of product. Ironically - the workers like 'smart automation' kind of work a lot - the machines run the tedious part of the task and the workers 'run the machine' & measure parts... but 'smart automation' does require a more talented workforce - one that can train pretty fast & think on their feet. Hard to recruit people like that to work in a factory - the HR people really have to do a better job selling folks on the idea that modern factories aren't that bad [often are as clean or cleaner than the office] and in many cases these jobs offer far more autonomy than office jobs.
I prefer the German patent 2 tiered system somewhat
The American model is breaking down. IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, etc.. advocating for patent reform to minimize new patents awarded is kind of a telling sign that only the lawyers are getting rich for the majority of them
but at one point that flexibility was a godsend to inventors
we need a new system that rewards inventors without granting injunction status. there shouldn't be a single standard term length. groups should be allowed to pool resources and cooperate under an agreed framework without their legal team telling them it is impossible. there should be a clear position taken on employer's rights to a patent filed by an employee under various conditions
lots of issues, but:
- most politicians are old, and aren't keeping up
- most politicians are lawyers, and efficient laws make for poor lawyers
- there are always special interests to fund the politicians to keep the status quo
Typical jingoist tripe about the European car companies. FIAT own FERRARI. Citroen and the other
French flavor make the best World Rally Racing cars available so stuff that crap and see how professionals do it when they take over.
dryfly
As to the lineworker comments. The way I see it is that projects going ahead do so because they have good rates of return.
Robot dexterity, power, and cost are decreasing exponentially.
Right now they're focussed on the high value areas. Over time those 1 or 2 jobs eliminated from a 500 worker shift will become 2-4 a year, and then 5-10.
Maybe not within the 50 year/90% context, but the trend is written on the wall.
With a move towards an electric drivetrain, major chunks of complexity are eliminated (by wiping out suppliers mostly)
So I'm not writing humans off, but until the limiting factor (price) stop decreasing exponentially I would be pessimistic for their future
My former superintendent would get up and tell parents that "We don't make things in this country anymore. We have intellectual capital". This was a favorite refrain of his, in various wordings. I think he thought that it was good. A superintendent of a district that would be considered successful, with stratospheric test scores.
anonymous 2:16pm
I know of separate classes of IP, each with their own rules, but I would like to see a continuous range of possible term lengths... preferably tied to a market mechanism.
as I mentioned in Germany based on a patent's inventiveness, there are 2 tiers. Top tier gets protection for longer, other tier is a shorter term. They also have to pay annual 'rents' to maintain the patent status
I would like to take lessons learned from systems already used and create a new generation of patent system that doesn't get overwhelmed approving patents for business plans, or trivial derivative works which should never have been legitimate, or have to deal with overlapping patents where both are valid but they each can block the other's use
Intellectual property is the worst maintained of the branches of law. Everything is just swept under the rug and the dead bodies are beginning to smell
Remember that the essential accomplishment of the new legislation is that it makes it possible for banks more readily to convert their assets into cash than was the case before. More liberal provision has been made for banks to borrow on these assets at the Reserve Banks and more liberal provision has also been made for issuing currency on the security of those good assets. This currency is not fiat currency. It is issued only on adequate security -- and every good bank has an abundance of such security.
One more point before I close. There will be, of course, some banks unable to reopen without being reorganized. The new law allows the Government to assist in making these reorganizations quickly and effectively and even allows the Government to subscribe to at least a part of new capital which may be required.
I hope you can see from this elemental recital of what your government is doing that there is nothing complex, or radical in the process.
We had a bad banking situation. Some of our bankers had shown themselves either incompetent or dishonest in their handling of the people's funds. They had used the money entrusted to them in speculations and unwise loans. This was of course not true in the vast majority of our banks but it was true in enough of them to shock the people for a time into a sense of insecurity and to put them into a frame of mind where they did not differentiate, but seemed to assume that the acts of a comparative few had tainted them all. It was the Government's job to straighten out this situation and do it as quickly as possible -- and the job is being performed .
May 7 1933 excerpt
Re: Robots I've always thought agriculture would be a great place to apply robotics; the lack of wide-spread advances in that area could be attributed to the availability of cheap immigrant labor. Parallels to Europe right before the big plague? http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=177
They wouldn't be able to keep them running long enough to finish a test drive Could you imagine the build quality which would result from that unholy aliance ?
Fiat-Chrysler.. laughable, so does combining a 3rd rate and a 4th rate car company make a 7th rate company ?
In 2003, an independent commission of highly regarded experts was created to look into the matter. The Commission consisted of Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff; General Raymond G. Davis, United States Marine Corps, (MOH), Former Assistant Commandant of The Marine Corps; Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Judge Advocate General Of The Navy; and Ambassador James Akins (Ret.), Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.
That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;
That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;
Anon 2:26, American Patents require maintenance payments also to remain in effect. It can also be argued that we also have a dual patent system, if one counts design patents, however I would be the first to admit that they are more trademark-like and less like an industrial design registration.
Dryfly, I think that the oft cited Germany is perhaps a good model of your point on keeping the production know-how in your economy. There they know how to run an advanced economy and still have it be a net exporter. Krugman got his Nobel partly on proving the geographically critical mass idea of economic development, that "deep bench" you were mentioning (i.e., places like the Bay Area has been for electronics and computing 1960-present).
IP in the end is simply a business tool and thus part of the business whole, like factories, sales/retail outlets, or workers/management are. You need the business to make it really worth while, like a factory, people can usually replace it some how if they really want to.
Ugh, that last line should have read "any single part of a business, like a factory, people can usually replace somehow if they really want to and go around you."
I don't know what's more disturbing, the fact that half of the folks left in the USA who actually understand manufacturing have posted on this thread, or the fact that these posts were largely made after 2 AM EST
Would the point of a merger be reciprocity with Fiat's international markets? The get a factory and access to the US market again, while Chrysler can sell Jeeps on Fiat's lots?
yes, but also depressing insofar as this kind of knowledge is so far out of the mainstream experience for Americans born after 1970. The brain drain out of real engineering towards software engineering and, worst of all, 'financial engineering' has created a world where this kind of chatter seems like it is from another planet.
The general public, those belonging to non-manufacturing jobs, tend to think of assembly lines building cars when they hear the word "manufacturing." The reality is that everything from food, chemicals, pharma, biotech, and more can fall under that category, and many require sophisticated and highly automated factories. I don't think people think of their prescription drugs as "manufactured," but they are. I think that's one reason why problems with the Detroit 3 gathered so much interest and sympathy. People seem to think that the car companies are the last cornerstones of American manufacturing or something like that; the truth is that there is quite a lot of other manufacturing activity going on.
Manufacturing can be a difficult to define category
Manufacturing is simply the creation of wealth, which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisify human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.
The value-add in manufacturing is the combination of the durability of the consumer good with the efficiency factor of production via end-user assembly.
This is why taking McDonald's as a manufacturing entity is something of a joke since hamburgers are one-off purchases and the consumers can assemble the ingredients themselves for about what they pay Ronnie.
All indicators look ugly at this moment, I want my hOpe bounce this week. It's historic, it's unprecedented, there should be a 500 point pop solely due to Cheney's departure.
CR, This morning's Bailout Links are now up. Links to 9 stories so far this morning from Soros on Tarp and the stimulus to the UN asking for a US bailout of Cuba(sort of)...oh yeah and the guy who owns the Bunny Ranch Brothel in nevada is asking again for a $1 billion bailout...only this time he says it's satire...he HATES the bailouts...he's one of us it seems...anyway, i have a link to all these stories plus about 5 more...
i'll try to paste a live link for everyone but if not just copy/paste...it's the lead story on the first page...
CR and readers, one more thing...if you do stop by to see today's links (i'll be doing a round-up of bailout links every morning, fwiw and i'll try to stop by here early in the morning to give you guys the scoop on them)...and if you have the time, please leave a quick hello in the comments on my site just saying you stopped by from CR...it'll mean a lot to me...
and please notice that i'm not running any advertising on my site of any sort, so i don't make anything from whatever little traffic i get...i'm not trying to make any money, i just want to stop these goddamned bailouts of failure...and the launch of dailybail is just the first step in that direction...there's lot's more coming...
Another Update...there are now 19 bailout news links up for this morning...some really good stuff on bernake, inside merrill and a Jimmy Rogers interview from China on the bailouts...it's classic
Fiat ( and Renault too ) makes some interesting diesel powered cars . No,maybe they will make it to the US . BTW, I once had a Fiat 124 Spider which was fun to drive but a headache to keep running .
OT - Didn't see this last night. "Time To Sell Treasuries", as per South Korea's Biggest Fund.
Its time to sell U.S. Treasuries, said Kim, who took over as head of investments at the start of the year. The stimulus plan may cause inflation. The U.S. will raise the benchmark interest rate.
Manufacturing is simply the creation of wealth, which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisify human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.
Well, re manufacturing and what it is, I disagree with Troy. Manufacturing involves adding value to raw materials and component parts. Like bakers, or printers, steelmakers, etc.
Black Star Ranch writes: .....Morning....I found that USS Liberty report troubling.
You should. Not that America has any right to get up on its hind legs about betraying its allies or going back on its word -- but it certainly serves to remind people that Israel is not the all-singing all-dancing America Jr.
Or maybe it is, see above about our tendency to screw people and then pretend it didn't happen.
OK, I was being a bit too smug, but I notice that his definition is basically circular - wealth is what manufacturing creates, and manufacturing creates wealth.
Or to quote the quote -
'...which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisfy human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.'
First, where did 'services' come from? A back massage is not manufactured, but it will often satisfy a want or need. And knowing someone capable of providing said service when requested may be a decent way to measure wealth, but again has nothing to do with manufacturing.
Through we can all be good reductionists and define absolutely all human activity in economic terms, manufacturing is not all human activity, by any means. Raising a child is the very definition of satisfying human needs and wants, and yet in this context, I don't think the wealth that a child represents has anything to do with consumer or capital goods.
Wealth is much harder to define adequately than manufacturing, even if a definition was provided.
I've been away. Did Joe Kernen declare a period of mourning and go into retirement? He's absent from CNBC and no one is mentioning him even on the hourly updates. I don't miss him, btw.
If I understand it, Fiat doesn't explicitly assume any responsibility for Chrysler debt. However, the threat that defaulted bondholders might reposess this wonderful retooled factory might decrease default chances.
There was talk of GM selling off plant and equipment. Is this the same thing?
I think it has possibilities
1. It will give dealers something to sell even if they are initially re- badged Fiat stuff. Wouldn't be surprised at an EPA waver for a while.
2.And it will keep jobs. The big question will be are they going to be UAW jobs or Toyota-type jobs
I spent a good chunk of my adolescence pushing a Fiat 2000 Spider home after various epic mechanical and electrical failures. Nonetheless, if we are really moving to small cars in the US once and for all, I would love love love the opportunity to buy a new Alfa here -- the current Alfas are some of the most fun-to-drive small cars in the world, period. If Fiat can use Chrysler's distribution network and/or manufacturing facilities to get them to us, so much the better.
Fiat is a pretty strong company these days, and it's a good fit for Chrysler -- perhaps the best fit. I think this is promising news.
Wealth is much harder to define adequately than manufacturing
I agree. If I was stuck on a deserted island there may be plenty of resources but if I had to spend the whole day fishing for food it would not matter. Let's say I created a net and then I only had to fish in the morning. In my way of thinking I would be wealthier than before. I just created time for myself to do something else. In fact the only way to get more wealthy would be if I had to spend the least amount of time ensuring my comfort and survival. Now Let's say there were two of us. If you spent the morning fishing and I sat on the beach would you share your fish with me. Let's say I picked up a coconut off the ground. You might say no fish for you but what if I had to climb the tree and get you a coconut you might trade. In fact we might start using coconuts for trading labor as they last a long time in case there were days we could not fish. After awhile it might start to make sense just to trade coconuts on paper only since it would free up time to do other things and just rectify the accounts every so often. Now if you worked hard an stored up a bunch of coconuts and I goofed off you would be wealthier than me because you would have the moral right to command me to work to pay you back. I a sense you have more time to spend in the way you choose and I have less. The moral of the story when a man gets married he is by my definition poor because he will not ever have any time to spend in the way he chooses.
So my question is, are there others in other industries that are also coming across these groups armed with spreadsheets and not experience?
They needed your order to get the financing to commit to the solar panels. It's what happens when start-up companies can't get traditional financing. It's happening all over.
This is the same move when Studebaker Packer dealers did when they took on Mercedes Benz before they failed. leaving Mercedes with a established dealer net work. Very smart of Fiat and Chrysler. Chrysler now has a window to a real market around the world making it a better value to sell. Fiat is back into the US market as well.
We used to think Fiat could give the cars away and they would make up the loss on parts sales. Miss those money makers.
The USDept Treasury has no head. After inauguration day on Tuesday the 20th of January, look for possible volatility, disruptions, and fast moving markets. Such is a possible climate for a powerful USDollar decline overnight. Few realize that financial market interventions of numerous types can only be executed by the hand of the Treasury Secretary. That post is vacant tomorrow, as the Geithner confirmation has hit a snag. The real reasons for the snag are concealed in my opinion, as attention focus on nonsense like tax returns. His involvement at the center of the great Wall Street fraud episode is the likely reason. Without the potential for market intervention, the gold price might enjoy a strange upward lift, much like the lift seen in September immediately before the $138 billion JPMorgan reload. The gold lift was around $100 in a single week. Watch for some possible unbridled moments for a few horses free to run wild.
Two Fiats...don't be silly. That implies the parts are interchangeable.
bearly,
"I sure hope Fiat has improved its products. Back 25 years ago they had a presence and their vehicles were shit."
Well, that would be a good match for Chrysler then. I mean how much of a challenge is it to slapped together two firms with similar engineering and manufacturing goals.
In addition, full public ownership of the banks would greatly facilitate the creation of a bad bank that would hold on its balance sheet all the toxic assets (illiquid assets of highly uncertain value) currently held by the high street banks. The key problem with any bad bank proposal is the price it pays for the toxic assets it acquires from the banks. If all the banks, and the bad bank, are publicly owned, this problem goes away. The toxic assets are simply moved to the balance sheet of the bad bank. They could be valued at anything from zero to their notional value or historic cost (or even higher). It would be a redistribution of wealth from one state-owned entity to another state-owned entity.
Well, that would be a good match for Chrysler then. I mean how much of a challenge is it to slapped together two firms with similar engineering and manufacturing goals.
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 8:58 am | #
UAW has to go. Choices are simple. GM and Ford are world wide companies. They can go BK walk away from the union and dump all the legacy cost and really compete with the American assembled imports. They can also increase or completely rebadge their non US product under their NA badges as they do some now. Pontiac G8 is a Holden from Australia. Any money from the Fed is a pay back to the unions.
"Any money from the Fed is a pay back to the unions."
That's all it is? If you complete the destruction of the unions you will find out what unintended consequences really are, and they won't all be welcome.
Look hard at countries in which the unions have been destroyed or emasculated.
The basic thing about Chrysler-Fiat should be obvious: there is already overcapacity in that industry and this does nothing to address that.
The Japanese and Koreans can easily keep the US market fully supplied with cars that outcompete any Chrysler or Fiat products and they can beat them on price, too.
"Look hard at countries in which the unions have been destroyed or emasculated."
They have had a major role in the destruction of the Auto industry as well as others. They are still functioning in the dinosaur ages. When KK wanted to buy Chrysler he demanded the UAW be part owner. This would have made the union responsible for their actions and end the parasite of greed they have become.
The Unions have lost their way just like most of America has. Simply look at the mess we are in and tell me what they have done to enter the global market?
Cost to the taxpayer on legacy costs are there one way or the other. We pay in BK when the pension board absorbs the lose or we feed them to stay alive supporting the whole mess, probably a prolong death.
Moe: When KK wanted to buy Chrysler he demanded the UAW be part owner. This would have made the union responsible for their actions and end the parasite of greed they have become.
If only we could all learn from the wisdom of Larry Kravis.
.....19-degrees in DC - they expect it to be about 10-degrees warmer at noon. What a zoo.
....Well,it seems he did it. Amongst the sound of falling timber, Bush made it thru to the end of his Presidency without the use of martial law nor the complete destruction of our economic system. I imagine he's relieved - I sure am.
Now it's The Chosen One's shot. I wonder how patient we will be, including members of the media. For some, it will be a very short honeymoon. Things might get a bit testy as the financial health of our nation erodes. No time for OJT. Much to achieve in the first 100-days.
Area in DC is "maxed out" - mass of humanity. I'm kinda waiting for Forest Gump to run out into the Pond and hug that old girl-friend - Stella? Wait that's another movie. I was there once, as a contingent of Marines keeping the blacks from rioting back in the 60's. I remember it being much warmer though...
I have a mid-20s friend who works for a relief agency in the ivory coast. she gets paid in sterling, but her substantial student loans are in USD. Been telling her to get out of sterling at about 2.0; she called hysterical this morning when it breached 1.40
When a union can stop the daily business (strike) then your answer is yes they are part owner from extortion.
No agreement between Management and the union has ever been model in a market contraction. Fat heads agreements (Management and Unions)of days gone by when we built for the world, now the shoe of competition is on the other foot. This lead to unrealistic deals and now we have an inconvenient reality. Time baseline it and start over with 401Ks and realistic benefits that flex with the future. The import workers seem to have done a good job with out them but then they are dealing in the modern world with out Unions.
Moe:
If you take a good look at the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
limits you will see that they are lower then the UAW contract.
So If Fed funds are going to bailout UAW pensioners, which will have to happen, it will be a lot cheaper to do it via PBGC.
UAW will bitch and moan, so would I. But
the Gov't owes UAW no more then it does any other pensioner.
UAW certainly helped bankrupt the Pig3. And so naturally they feel the right to be more equal than others.
For UAW I will quote Nero:
Get me my eyecup, I want to shed a tear for them.
"If you take a good look at the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
limits you will see that they are lower then the UAW contract."
I would be mad as an retired employee as well. But The B3 are at the point of death. Then they get the same result. Pick your poison. The PBGC will have to be bailed out by the Feds. I am under the impression retirees get SS as well. How that truly plays I don't know. The government will respond as the UAW gives generously to the DEMs. That is the pay back, ugly part of the game.
I've been wanting a car that can run biodiesel. Currently, the only car maker in the US with a diesel car is VW (Jetta TDI). The Jetta is a bit large for my inner city lifestyle.
There are biodiesel stations poping up all over the place in Seattle: Propel
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)...
I wouldn't go around trumpeting Ferrari and Lamborghini as engineering marvels. Chrysler actually owned Lambo in the late 80s (one of Lee Iacocca's acquisitions after they got healthier post the last government loan).
They essentially rebuilt every car over here before shipping them to dealers. Quality control was nonexistent. Truly garbage autos.
"When a union can stop the daily business (strike) then your answer is yes they are part owner from extortion."
Employees are not owners. As individuals they have no influence over their working conditions or compensation, unless they combine. Nor, eventually, in the race to the bottom, will they be able to afford the products they produce.
Again, look at countries in which unions were crushed. It's not an inspiring list.
ot sure how a car company that has trouble selling in its own market (Fiat) will another company that has trouble selling in its own market? does this seem like the blind leading the blind?
Good news, free ice on the foredeck.
Had a '79 x 1/9. Fix it again, Tony ...
But I could squeeze between traffic and parked cars on one-way "single lane" nyc cross streets.
thats a cracker... do they get bags of "cerberus" dog food too??
This is just toooo hilarious.
As a certifiable Alfa Romeo nut (3 in the garage, all more or less functional) I hope this means we get us some nice new Alfas here someday. Who will be able to buy them? Who knows.
my first car was an x19.
Fix
It
Again
Tony
Comrade Knifecatcher
doubt so, it says "Fiat" not alfa..
btw. is Fiat getting 35% of future looses too??
Prediction: Kervorkian re-emerges as cultural folk-hero.
When do the Chinese auto manufacturers buy in? GM?
Fiat?
I think I just pooped my pants laughing.
Italian engineering, American quality. Don't be so hard. Coulda been worse; Chrysler-Peugeot Citroën.
And the depression will make a fat ass average American lean enough to actually fit in a Fiat! Bastardly clever plan.
Ron Paul's gonna go apeshit...
Embarrassing, an American company being rescued by an Italian company.
Hilarious.
Okay, that qualifies as capitulation.
Now that is embarrassing...
Yogi beat me to the acronym!
Funny story abt the x19 bertone, it had the trunk in the front (like a vw bug) and I once stashed a mini-weber in there following a tailgating session. After the game, the grill was still hot, and I ended up burning my ass when I sat on the hood.
USA USA USA....
supafly73 writes:
And the depression will make a fat ass average American lean enough to actually fit in a Fiat! Bastardly clever plan.
supafly73
YouTube - Gruba Amerykanka / Fat American Hamburger
in
YouTube - The official new Fiat 500 video!
go long on lubericants
Will Fiat honor that 2.99 a gallon gas promise?
Can I get lease rate in Lira?
Howa mucha for the Jeepa?
Probably buying crysler they try to set a record becoming the auto company with the most closed plants
this was published 12-2008
Fiat to Suspend 14 Production Plants - autoevolution
...no less than 14 of Fiat's 20 Italian plants will be closed through mid-January while 48,000 blue-collar workers of the 80,000 employees workforce will benefit from a longer holiday...
It feels more like France (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) around here with each passing day...
/sigh
"Italian engineering"...
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)...
Italian engineering, American quality.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.19.09 - 11:44 pm | #
I'll wager it turns out to be American design, Italian quality, and leftover engineering. If it turns out at all.
How about re-tooling the tools known as the UAW? Article is silent on that.
Fiat cars.. Fiat currency.
"Thirty five percent of Chrysler for the cost of retooling a plant ... that will make Fiats!"
Whoa. One of the geniuses at Cerberus must have thought this up.
Could it be Mr. "Potatoe" Head?
free ice on the foredeck
Funny stuff.
Guess Fiat wants some TARP.
"Could it be Mr. "Potatoe" Head?"
Shhh, don't let Nardelli hear you using his secret code name.
I would rather they were bought out by Vespa...
didnt GM bought out of a option to take fiat?? they must be so angry now..they could have Chrysler now...
thats inbreeding industrial size...
It could have been worse, Tata airbottle cars. Curry men to the rescue!
Embarrassing, an American company being rescued by an Italian company.
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) | 01.19.09 - 11:47 pm | #
After we already gave them a mess-o-money...
Oh ya I forgot - it's a loan.
A high school friend circa 1960 had a Fiat Dolphene. The absolute worst damned piece of junk EVER produced.
Today, however, Fiat has become a fine company. Word has it that they print some of the finest currency in the world.
Chrysler quality interiors with Fiat electronics. Brilliant!
Fiat and Chrysler: Not a winning pair
Fiat and Chrysler: Not a winning pair - BusinessWeek
CR,
How will Fiat take advantage of Chrysler's dealership network? U.S. laws prevented DMBZ from pursuing that original goal when it bought up Chrysler. I see no reason why the situation will be different for Fiat.
Oh god, I made the mistake of going to that forum community which is obsessed with a birdflu outbreak, singtomeohmuse. This was the WRONG decision; now I'm looking into fallout shelters and covering my family members with bactine.
I worked with a man who owned 3 Fiats in the '80's. He was a pretty good mechanic.I used to give him a ride home...
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)...
supafly73 | 01.19.09 - 11:49 pm | #
They also make pretty good small diesels as do many of those 'Old Europeans'.
Jeebus....Fiat is being paid to take 35% of Chrysler.
Nascar new look Fiat passing Honda at Daytona while Chev/Ford into wall
"Embarrassing, an American company being rescued by an Italian company."
Well, maybe moving your grandpapa's factory into China and only keeping the headquarter was not actually that clever after all, yes?
i prdict comedians will get jobless soon.. this just writes itself.. The Onion staff must be really afraid by now..
All Fiat jokes aside, yeah, I too well recall the 70's and 80's crap from Italy. Fiat today, is a pretty impressive company, with highly regarded and highly rated marquees in its portfolio.
To boot, pun intended, many of these are exactly the kind of fuel efficient small cars Americans will likely embrace when energy costs resume their inevitable climb back to the stratosphere.
Might make a LOT more sense than sticking Benz badges on crappy SUV's built in Alabama.
Jeebus....Fiat is being paid to take 35% of Chrysler.
Matthew Saroff | Homepage | 01.19.09 - 11:59 pm | #
Well Daimler paid Cerberus to to take them so why hot pass the hot potato?
Fiat today, is a pretty impressive company, with highly regarded and highly rated marquees in its portfolio.
They are still crap... Pretty but crap.
New from Fiat - the Amero!
Ross- "A high school friend circa 1960 had a Fiat Dolphene."
Are you sure you're not thinking of the rear-engine Renault Dauphin, another legendary piece of junk?
Mexico's Slim to invest $250 mln in New York Times
America on sale! Mexico one-ups the Italians with a save for the "newspaper of record."
these are exactly the kind of fuel efficient small cars Americans
they just have to make it one seaters instead for 4 ...
"All Fiat jokes aside, yeah, I too well recall the 70's and 80's crap from Italy"
Porsche was actually pretty crap in the 80's too but they shaped up during 90's.
Fiat is likely to take a 35% stake in Chrysler
A bit more than a whiff of desperation coming off of this one...
PS: Fiat owns 100% of Alfa and Maserati, as well as a percentage of Ferrari that changes frequently.
Won't someone put Chrysler out of its misery? Please!
This deal is kind of confusing. Why doesn't Fiat just buy the damn factory and retool it? Chrysler has a bunch they no longer need with the labor to match. Why the equity position instead? If Chrysler BKs the retooled factory is sold off to pay the creditors and the equity is as worthless as it is now.
Having owned Ferraris, Lambos etc., the only Italian car that ever worked well for me was an Alpha. Italians design perdy cars but the Germans make sturdy cars.
Just my experience. Porsche twin turbo=Valhala......
Ponyless in NJ
italiens are cunning bagholders..
One Footnote Fiat shares platforms too
Fiat Linea Shares with Opel for the Corsa
Fiat Croma - Another Opel
Fiat Punto - Opel
You get the point.
Why doesn't Fiat just buy the damn factory and retool it? Chrysler has a bunch they no longer need with the labor to match. Why the equity position instead?
You don't think the factory is already secured to the hilt? Much cheaper to retool then pay off the debt on it. Basically, there's no skin in the game for Chrysler except for a worthless equity stake.
It's like getting a contractor to repaint your house that's $200K underwater on the promise that he gets 35% of the profit when you sell it.
the only Italian car that ever worked well for me was an Alpha.
Uh, Alfa. A-l-f-a.
When did Matchbox start making Alfas anyway? Never saw one when I was a kid.
but Opel is GM so whats the point??
@mp,
Ah yes. Rear engine Dauphine. It got GREAT mpg. We pushed it half way to where we were going.
An Amerikan, German, Italian hybrid.
Multicultural...
Fiat 500s in the US? People would buy them.
Renault-Nissan is a better fit, as BusinessWeek says, but for those cracking Fiat jokes while Europeans get 40-odd (US) MPG, you're missing out.
Having owned Ferraris, Lambos etc.
arghh...
Well, maybe moving your grandpapa's factory into China and only keeping the headquarter was not actually that clever after all, yes?
supafly73 | 01.20.09 - 12:01 am | #
You don't understand. We've moved on to creating and building "platform companies" for the 21st century now:
"Nevertheless, if investors do buy into our belief that the combination of an
unprecedented monetary loosening, fiscal easing and low oil prices will help the US
and Asian economies recover by the second half of 2009, then any significant dip in
equity markets over the coming months should be seen as a buying opportunity."
http://gavekal.com/gclsite/files/GaveKal_Platform_Company_Fund_-Dec_2008_Newsletter.pdf
Bwahahahahahahahah...
Yoringe, interesting remark. Fiat has some chrysler debt?
Ross you sound like a real auto aficinado
Yoringe writes:
but Opel is GM so whats the point??
They don't have many unique platforms to share in the first place. What technology will they bring to Chrysler that they can stick in a Neo
Well, maybe moving your grandpapa's factory into China and only keeping the headquarter was not actually that clever after all, yes?
supafly73 | 01.20.09 - 12:01 am | #
we're so damn clever we convinced ourselves that a bunch of heads could live forever without bodies, just renting the cheapest ones available until they wore out.
Great read on critical thinking and the need for some to believe in conspiracy theories.
Eject Eject Eject
anyone remember that??
BBC NEWS | Business | GM pays $2bn to evade Fiat buyout
Fiat can we anesthetize Lancia while you are reshuffling?
Apparently, the New York Times owns a stake in the Boston Red Sox. What the...?
Fiat in the 1970's shared technology with Russia which resulted in the Russian Lada. They also started the Kama River truck factory.
Fiat always tries to help out disadvantaged countries.
Amerikan, German, Italian hybrid
ugly, expensive, unreliable, expensive.
Anonymous, the question is why would Fiat take the deal...
Great read on critical thinking and the need for some to believe in conspiracy theories.
anon | 01.20.09 - 12:13 am | #
They paid you to come here and post that, didn't they. Admit it. Well?
Great read on critical thinking and the need for some to believe in conspiracy theories.
Eject Eject Eject 000140.html
anon | 01.20.09 - 12:13 am | #
Don't go to that website. Alex Jones assures me that it's operated by agents of the secret new world order.
YouTube - Richard Pryor as Rev. James L. White
Great, my neighbour opposite has a 20 year old Fiat ( dunno what, he always calls it a Fiat ) soft-top that I'm often helping him repair - trivial things like turn the ignition on while he's peeking under the bonnet or pump the brakes while looks somewhere..
I'm gonna tell him "nice Chrysler you got there" tomorrow. Then run back across the street.
-K
why would Fiat take the deal...
By getting Chrysler to make their cars, Fiat jumps right into the American market; they use Chrysler's regulatory expertise and distribution/supply networks. At least whatever's left when they finally retool.
All for the cost of retooling a factor.
You don't understand. We've moved on to creating and building "platform companies" for the 21st century now:
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:12 am | #
I called BS on that too on a couple different forums a number of years ago and had the economic wing of Neocon USA jump down my throat every chance they got. 'Platforms Companies' bah - that has worked out about as well as I expected. Gavekal should have sold MBS -they would have made a killing.
ever seen this in real ??
you want to donate your eyeballs after...
Resultados de la Búsqueda de imágenes de Google de http://www.autoobzor.org/uploads/news/2007/6/topnep/FiatMultipla.jpg
I would rather they were bought out by Vespa...
dryfly | 01.19.09 - 11:55 pm | #
In that clip that was a Fiat Topolino convertible and a Vespa. I had a Vespa as my first bike, absolutely loved it. Very reliable by the way.
Sorry, but only Mr. "Potatoe" Head (Dan Quayle) could come up with something so f***ing stupid and desperate.
Yoringe,
They've cornered the market on ugly.
Who's gonna short ugly?
From Cerberus - Home page
At Cerberus, we have a long-term investment horizon and focus on value creation. We invest in undervalued companies and their people, and help them to realize their potential. We partner with our portfolio companies to help them become industry leaders. We believe competition makes the global economy more productive and more efficient, which enables companies to succeed long-term in the globally competitive marketplace. We encourage our companies to focus on the future through prudent capital investment, R&D, new product marketing, talent development, improved operations and appropriate strategic acquisitions.
Prediction: Kervorkian re-emerges as cultural folk-hero.
jtaylor118 | Homepage | 01.19.09 - 11:43 pm | #
Only if he is putting down banks...
I guess the assumption is that American consumers will buy the cars. Good luck betting on that...
Growing stocks of unsold cars around the world |
Business |
guardian.co.uk
still will take fiat on Liabilitys of Chrysler also with the deal??
When did Matchbox start making Alfas anyway? Never saw one when I was a kid.
Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 12:10 am | #
A while ago, just look at this one:
http://carhangar.blogspot.com/2008/01/alfa-romeo-giulia-sprint-gta-1965.html
Had a friend who bought a rear engine Fiat. Might have been a 600. Had three speeds-wash, rinse, and spin dry.
have to Google Hawking.. he may have a theorie what you get when you own 35% of a Black hole...
Foolish
Italian
Attempt at
Transportation.
Alex Jones
ztexas | 01.20.09 - 12:16 am | #
Ha, ha! Speaking of Austin... Kooky dude, but kind of nice to have around. Keeps TPTB semi-honest.
Gavekal should have sold MBS -they would have made a killing.
dryfly | 01.20.09 - 12:19 am | #
Same general idea: a few people make good money, everybody else starves.
My first piece of motorized transport was a used Cushman Eagle. Never forgave my dad for that one. I worked my butt off the next summer to trade up to a Vespa.
Vespas are making a comeback in the US now that they are EPA compliant. I always remember Greg Peck in "Roman Holiday."
when crysler goes BK does Fiat have to give back the factory??
There's an eerie reminder here for me of the bad old days in the UK 68-79 and the restructuring ( NOT!) of the UK car "industry" - British Leyland - gawd, I get shivers recalling all that..
Puhleeze, not that again - but given the govt. we have now - I expect bailouts, chip butties( well maybe not THAT) at the White House with union leaders, late night emergency talks, YET another deal hammered out.. and of course billions of MY money down the drain.
-K
I was wondering about platform companies a few days ago. I actually still believe that it is a net negative.
RE | 01.20.09 - 12:34 am | #
If it was up to me, I'd prefer to take the hit out of 40% margins instead of 3% margins. But everybody's going to be feeling it one way or the other.
Of course, from Thanksgiving until about Baseball's opening day, it must sit in storage.
Will the Vespa not drive properly in the cold, or are you too much of a foilhatgrrl to drive it ;p
When I was a youngster, we seemed to have many motorcycles and assorted two-wheelers running around the house.
Actually, I learned to ride a tiny cc Benelli before I could ride a bicycle.
Anywho, I seem to remember some beat up Honda-supplied MoPed that spent a summer in my "care". Darn thing even had pedals!
I'd probably spring for another just for kicks. The Vespas are a little pricey for my type of fun-abouts.
@ Ross- perdy v. sturdy...how true!
All I want is a Mercedes C class diesel with a standard 5 speed and no power anything.
Do hedonics work in reverse?
Great read on critical thinking and the need for some to believe in conspiracy theories.
It ain't all that. Not that he does not have a point but sometimes it comes down you have to believe in unbelievable stupidity or someone had an agenda. The USS Liberty for example. I have spent some time at sea. It was impossible in my opinion for the Israelis not to know what they were firing at.
Dead In The Water - The Sinking of the USS Liberty
Top 5 posters for 1.19.09 as determined by quality of content:
I wish Chryslers were as good as Fiats.....I love Italian cars.
Anyone else have to uninstall cr companion?
If it was up to me, I'd prefer to take the hit out of 40% margins instead of 3% margins. But everybody's going to be feeling it one way or the other.
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:40 am | #
That 40% margin had quite a bit of positive economic impact in the U.S. All that will be lost.
You can butter my parsnips, pip. Good read on the posters.
I was wondering about platform companies a few days ago. I actually still believe that it is a net negative.
RE | 01.20.09 - 12:34 am | #
Absolutely they are net negatives - they think the 'IP' is what is valuable... well it is but it isn't usually the patentable stuff that's the critical ingredient - it's the PROPRIETARY things you learn making the stuff & managing those programs & processes. You don't capture much of that in a platform... but your 'platform partner' sure does. I had a bunch of investment types tell me I was all wrong - like they'd ever started up a plant or even knew what one was. It's one thing to have the 'big idea' a whole other thing to actually make it work and deliver the product AT A PROFIT product release cycle after product release cycle.
Nardelli i guess hopes 2 things with that:
1: fiat takes Chrysler over
2: he can show congress some progress on the next bailout hearing..
Of course, from Thanksgiving until about Baseball's opening day, it must sit in storage.
foilhatgrrl | 01.20.09 - 12:35 am | #
That's when you should be 'driving' your snowmobile...
I don't think that America will be able to use such garage sale tactics to repair its current account balance.
rent_to_own | 01.20.09 - 12:36 am | #
Consider this: large current account deficit and a weak dollar.
If it was up to me, I'd prefer to take the hit out of 40% margins instead of 3% margins. But everybody's going to be feeling it one way or the other.
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:40 am | #
MLM,
My link to the GaveKal piece a few days ago was bad. The quote actually was from that article.
... Who would you rather be? The Chinese and other Asian companies that make the iPod at a 2-3% margin? Or Apple who sells it at a 40% margin?...
In addition to issues that dryfly mentioned, what was a benefit then now is a drawback for the U.S. economy because that 40% profit that the platform company earned now has disappeared.
Toyota to Name New Management Amid First Sales Drop in 10 Years
Wow. Talk about a really short leash. Wonder how much of it is just for consumer/investor confidence.
You don't capture much of that in a platform... but your 'platform partner' sure does.
dryfly | 01.20.09 - 12:47 am | #
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it. If you're talking about networking gear ala Nortel, well their gross margins showed it too.
However, in both cases the trend was the same -- platform partners capturing a larger and larger percentage of the margins to be had, over time.
For such a laughable company it sure is amazing how well Fiat have adapted around the globe. I'd buy a nuovo 500 for sure. I don't think it's a good idea for them to take Chrysler but I assume they're looking at trying an approach similar to what they've done in South America. The pure export-to-USA approach with the necessity of setting up a dedicated dealer network was something they were never able to pull off adequately. Fiat's worst enemy in the US in the 70s was their dealer network. Let's use the X1/9 example, since others have mentioned it: how long do you think wheel bearings last on an all-independent suspended car when the dealers don't follow the factory's instruction to align the wheels before handing the cars over to new owners?
I agree with Tim & the American Miracle on one thing. Lancia should be put out of its misery. That was a fine company when it was independent. As a badge-engineered Fiat it's sad. And Alfa is slowly sinking into the same state: they make prettier and flashier Fiats. They've done a nice job with Maserati though!
Hey people face it, the USA is 90% off. We're lucky just to have people come and look.
Question for tomorrow: should I sell even my "good" bank stocks like WFC and PNC and USB? I mean how long before they disappear or are nationalized?
I had a bunch of investment types tell me I was all wrong - like they'd ever started up a plant or even knew what one was. It's one thing to have the 'big idea' a whole other thing to actually make it work and deliver the product AT A PROFIT product release cycle after product release cycle.
dryfly | 01.20.09 - 12:47 am | #
I learned early. Aerospace exotic fasteners with things like tapered shafts and cold rolled threads. The guy (a dozen years or more) on the thread roller asked for 40¢/hr more and was denied. Three weeks and a missed contract and nobody could figure out how to set up and get quality parts. The guy left for something like $2/hr more to a competitor.
In addition to issues that dryfly mentioned, what was a benefit then now is a drawback for the U.S. economy because that 40% profit that the platform company earned now has disappeared.
RE | 01.20.09 - 12:55 am | #
I think I'd disagree, subject to getting schooled by you and dryfly. The fixed costs for the 3%ers are going to kill them as revenues drop. The 40%ers have the luxury of some wiggle room. The problem is that the knock on effects from the drop in revenues will cause lots of problems for the 40%ers too -- all the people that indirectly lived off of that 40% (the service economy) aren't going to be happy.
Agree that most platform companys suck. My son values patents, IP as well as doing M&A expert opinions. He has worked for the likes of MMM and in his opinion, it takes super deep pockets to defend your 'platform'.
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it. If you're talking about networking gear ala Nortel, well their gross margins showed it too.
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:56 am | #
No - they are thinking two cycles ahead. It's fine to make 2% margin this cycle if you gain the expertise to capture the higher margin 'next cycle'. The big mistake a lot of the Asian Tigers made was thinking they could send their brainiacs to the US & European graduate schools and the IP would 'trickle down' to their masses and they would ale be rich... the problem was you can't trickle the really critical knowledge down... the knowledge to actually make the stuff. The only way you do that is have people do it - have them grow up in the environment working factory floors and learning. China is doing that now and doing it well - they are a generation away from having a 'deep bench' - enough basic skills across the board but they are getting there. Meanwhile we aren't back filling our bench except in 'retail' and 'finance'.
That is a bigger problem than the often cited 'failing schools' meme... and the 'Platform' concept is a center piece used to justify this 'failure' as a 'good thing'. It will cost us dearly going forward.
Like a lot of subjects discussed here, I think this depends on the details. If you're talking about networking gear ala Cisco, then the IP really does matter and their gross margins show it.
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 12:56 am | #
I have always wondered how quickly Huawei positioned itself in that space. Obviously Cisco was concerned about that, too. It looks to me that Huawei got access to Cisco IP/source code.
Huawei Overtakes Cisco
Thought I would share a recent photo that exhibits 2 of the finest economy cars Europe ever produced and imported to North America
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6889/dscf8558dx3.jpg
A Renault "Le Car" and a Citroen something which looks like the successor to the 2CV
Agree that most platform companys suck. My son values patents, IP as well as doing M&A expert opinions. He has worked for the likes of MMM and in his opinion, it takes super deep pockets to defend your 'platform'.
Ross | 01.20.09 - 1:04 am | #
I would love to lift a few w/ your son & share horror stories I can't share here.
RE margins. Factor leverage into all margin equations and you will have your answer.
It looks to me that Huawei got access to Cisco IP/source code.
RE | 01.20.09 - 1:07 am | #
They stole it, bugs and all. Cisco sued them with at least some success.
doubt so, it says "Fiat" not alfa.
Yoringe | 01.19.09 - 11:42 pm | #
I know I'm coming in late, but I just assumed that folks knew that Fiat has controlled Alfa since the mid-late '80s. Thanks for reminding me how obscure my obsession really is. I'll go away and tinker on my Giulia Super now.
A Renault "Le Car" and a Citroen something which looks like the successor to the 2CV
Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 1:07 am | #
That is a Deux Cheveaux (i.e 2CV) just a later model. the 2CV was produced from 1948 to 1990. I actually loved to drive them. I drove one where the wiper speed was tied to the speedometer. That was just fine on the highway but terrible on mountain passes in the rain or snow as the 2CV would crawl up a hill with the wiper hardly moving.
To cope with such "emergencies" you had a handle on the left that you could turn to increase the speed manually. It was solid dual action at that point... I loved it though!
RE margins. Factor leverage into all margin equations and you will have your answer.
Ross | 01.20.09 - 1:08 am | #
Those are exactly my thoughts!
BTW, what Ferraris and Lamborghinis did you drive? I loved them, too!
Hi everyone
Just wanted to say I had the chance to spend 2 hours with my mom and go over her retirement portfolio tonight. She has a no sales commission CFA rep at the bank, but that person is just an average CFA rep who depends on the market to do the work making them look good.
There are few things that I take more seriously than family member's money. I make a very big point of separating family and friends from business, so not that money is a problem but I am very serious about in on principal alone.
The one thing I wanted to share was now that it is done, I feel very good about it.
Obviously I didn't have carte blanche given it is a registered account, there were a couple mutual fund family tie ups about redemption penalties the CFA never disclosed before, and she is near retirement. But I think it (will be) in a pretty darn safe to strong position w.r.t. risk and a falling market -- so I sleep well tonight
como se dice "pony" in italiano?
Anon at 1:24 am - What is your point?
They stole it, bugs and all. Cisco sued them with at least some success.
MLM | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 1:16 am | #
Meanwhile next cycle...
BTW - I am already running into companies that will NOT move their important new programs overseas... only mature product. And even then there are 'components' inside those products that they insist be either manufactured here or at the very least not in one place, or even in one country so as to break up the opportunity to understand the 'basics'. This is more important for 'low technology' products like low emission high performance engines as it is for 'high technology' products like routers [btw that is some snark - few products are a 'high tech' as low e high p engines - but most wouldn't know it]. The reason: The product cycles are pretty long for an engine - you really don't want to let your eventual competitor learn the tricks too early on in the product cycle. Platformers really can't do that, can't defend the proprietary because they don't even know how to make their own products or what is 'important'. They can defend th epatentable but that isn't enough - understand the proprietary well enough and you walk around the patentable. Many are dead men walking and don't know it.
Wow. I'd make that deal, too. Who do I call?
Seriously...
They can defend th epatentable but that isn't enough - understand the proprietary well enough and you walk around the patentable.
Ahh. The trade secret-patent dichotomy.
Huawei can't succeed outside of China due to IP infringements. Even that were not an obstacle, the door is open for a major WTO case
It only succeeds in China because of direct government support
Once they start competing on their own work, they'll be someone to watch.
Until then think about all the Publishers who reprinted Dickens in America while America was an up start country that had thriving copyright piracy.
No - they are thinking two cycles ahead. It's fine to make 2% margin this cycle if you gain the expertise to capture the higher margin 'next cycle'.
dryfly | 01.20.09 - 1:07 am | #
Would love to discuss further with you dryfly, but it's late here. All I'll say is that running an 80% GM company leads you to drastically different conclusions about what you should focus on, as compared to running a 3% company. I still remember a meeting with a company looking at buying mine where they explained just how much cost they could cut out of our product -- I then pointed out that with all that work they would have taken our margins from 80% to 82%. Sort of like telling Microsoft you can revolutionize their business by cutting the cost of their packaging.
That said, I agree with your comments about having a deep bench. Or any bench. Over the past 20 years, we let our best prospects get drafted onto the cheerleading squad.
Comrade Knifecatcher, I put both my thumbs up to you and your Giulia Super.
[btw that is some snark - few products are a 'high tech' as low e high p engines - but most wouldn't know it].
dryfly | 01.20.09 - 1:27 am | #
I was ready to fire off on all cylinders on that until you made it clear you were snarking. Just try and reverse engineer a vapor deposited ceramic low friction high temperature coating from the finished product. Back in the 80s we had some Japanese execs visit the fastener plant I mentioned previously. They had extra soft heels in their shoes and picked up "samples" near a machine center just so they could find the temper we used in process (something you cannot find out from a finished product).
Just discovered this while looking at Huawei. How times change:
Huawei Becomes Global 4th Largest Patent Applicant
... [21 February 2008] According to the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Huawei moved up 9 places to become the 4th largest patent applicant under the WIPO Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT), with 1,365 applications published in 2007, following Matsushita, Philips Electronics N.V. and Siemens. ...
AB
Just wanted to share the anecdote. Most everyone here has family, and they probably worry for them if they're not market adept.
The point was to give encouragement for others to put in some work, rest their head on the chopping block, and be rewarded by knowing that their family member's saved years of work are looked after with due respect.
Imagine what it must feel like to know someone has put in 40 years of work, let's say saved 40% of their pay, and then lost 25% on those savings in the past year alone (not my case, but probably a very common example).
That represents 4 years of work. They would have been better off with a vacation or having spent it.
Then imagine what they feel like when their CFA cannot explain it, so they perpetually avoid the problem.
Then consider the possibility that we are only half way down for equity markets.
*at least 4 years of work, let's not forget the discount rate yet in this age of deflationism
I was ready to fire off on all cylinders on that until you made it clear you were snarking.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 1:34 am | #
LOL - I almost left it out to see if you'd jump on it. I figured you &/or mp were about the only people here who would get it. BTW I walk around factories w/ an Ironman digital watch w/ 100 splits. Think 'cycle times'.
Just discovered this while looking at Huawei. How times change:
RE | 01.20.09 - 1:38 am | #
Like I said above - understand the proprietary and it isn't long before you can walk around the patentable.
... [21 February 2008] According to the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Huawei moved up 9 places to become the 4th largest patent applicant under the WIPO Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT), with 1,365 applications published in 2007, following Matsushita, Philips Electronics N.V. and Siemens. ...
RE | 01.20.09 - 1:38 am | #
It's called patent bracketing. It's how the US lost out in so many electronics fields like VCRs and magnetic recording.
dryfly
The good factories record the process times for you
The slogans all over creep me out though. I also get the feeling the organic robots resent me when I've been through plants. A lot of them are on coke though so I don't take it personally
I don't think being an auto lineworker is a great job, regardless of pay and benefits.
It's boring, often hot, repetitive, loud -- which I could deal with if I had no education, or whatever
But 90% of those jobs today will have been taken over by a robot before they finish their career.
** accidentally clicked post, part 2 of the autoworker career post
I mean it's a step up from working in a poultry processing plant (the smell is unimaginable, worse than a fish plant), but I don't think the auto worker jobs are a sector that we should be prepared to defend over the next 50 years
I guess I don't know what will replace them, maybe maintenance for the robots that make other robots? but better to adapt over time than face a sudden shock
Comrade Knifecatcher, I put both my thumbs up to you and your Giulia Super.
flaminia | 01.20.09 - 1:34 am | #
Ah, a fellow sufferer. The Super's a '67, off the road since '84, close to being back in action. It's a dorky looking little box, but I love it. Mrs. Knifecatcher gave me the green light recently to pick up a very nice '60 Giulietta Spider - purchased, to keep this on topic, from a Chrysler designer.
The good factories record the process times for you
Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 1:46 am | #
Not at the detail I'm interested in - there is usually a step or an operation I'm really curious about inside the overall cycle and the 'charts' don't usually break that out... just overall takt times & such. Only one way to verify - measure it and do it a few times to average.
Shnaps writes:
my first car was an x19.
I beat you, my first car was an 850. 2 years life cycle = after 2 years all the parts of the car have already needed replacement, but it was fun to drive... may be too much fun, my friends had nicknamed it Sayonara (as in what would happen to me in case of an accident). Few would climb on board with me a second time. But the same car with improved reliability and crash resistance would be sellling well IMO, much more fun than a Nissan Sentra or T. Corrola.
Porsche was actually pretty crap in the 80's too but they shaped up during 90's.
supafly73
What junk? The early 924s? actually even these were quite reliable and fun... I drove one for 12 years daily and half a million miles (after the Fiat) and NEVER saw a tow truck (but I am vey good at preventative care... learned with the Fiat)
but even I have upgraded since then though, and knowing that the 924 was the worse Porsche ever made pretty much sold me the make for life
...'low technology' products like low emission high performance engines...
I'm really glad that was written by dryfly, so I can safely assume it is a sarcasm-laden comment and not lose complete hope in CR's commentship.
As far as this "silicon" guy is concerned, (competent) mechanical design is AT LEAST as high tech as cranking out yet another freakin' Windows application or yet another IP router. And actually building shit - pretty much any shit - is more "high tech" than sitting in a cubicle writing white papers and publishing patents.
I work for a company that distributes electricity among other things. We are in the nascent stage of a solar pv project that is fairly public, necessarily we get much solicited and unsolicited attention from pv manufacturers. Recently, we had one group approach us about buying its product at a very attractive price. The group was backed by this and that venture capital firms with all the right pedigrees. As the conversation continued, we learned that the group did not currently manufacture any pv panels but was in the process of selecting the technology it would manufacture. When we asked how the group could promise to deliver pv panels at the quoted price the group responded that all it needed was the contract and that the manufacturing part was the easy part. We declined stating that as a big old smelly electric company we don't buy serial numbers 0001 - 0999. So my question is, are there others in other industries that are also coming across these groups armed with spreadsheets and not experience?
dryfly, do you work with a ergonomic process modelling suite? I know what you mean though for cutting slack time
I'm not a factory guy myself, and I forget the name of the one I know a couple auto plants use...
on a macro level, it's a very beautiful evolution that includes refinements and improvements
on a micro level, it would be entirely demoralizing to a guy on the floor to know how soon they will be replaced and at what cost
Like I said above - understand the proprietary and it isn't long before you can walk around the patentable.
Last two startups were bought by companies who thought all you needed was a slice of "fundamental" IP and the dollars would just up and walk themselves straight to your bank account. Could not get them to understand that trying to snooker a high-dollar license fee was the surest way to incentivize potential licensees into rolling their own and either surrouding it with such a thick IP fence of their own that "fundamental" starts to resemble "Masada", or working around the issue entirely.
If you aren't a credible threat to actually build what you've invented, you're making yourself a target.
Both acquisitions failed, of course.
The Giulietta will always be a crowd-pleaser. My '61 Flaminia convertible is undergoing an engine rebuild right now.
OMFG.
I have a nap and the next story is manufacturing???
What about this?
Skrood:
Asian Stocks, U.S. Futures Fall as Recession Concern Deepens - Bloomberg.com
Multi- skrood:
Obama Needs ‘Yes We Can’ Abroad to Help End Global Recession - Bloomberg.com
Now, I'm all for change we can believe in, but we've got to believe.
C
dryfly, do you work with a ergonomic process modelling suite? I know what you mean though for cutting slack time
I'm not a factory guy myself, and I forget the name of the one I know a couple auto plants use...
on a macro level, it's a very beautiful evolution that includes refinements and improvements
on a micro level, it would be entirely demoralizing to a guy on the floor to know how soon they will be replaced and at what cost
Anonymous | 01.20.09 - 2:00 am | #
No I don't - I work w/ the suppliers to the OEMs.
As far as all the workers going away - I say 'yes' and 'no'... I see more smart automation not so much full automation - where there is human machine interface and don't see a lot of total 100% 'brain dead' automation. Full automation is out there but not as common as you would expect - need pretty high volume and low variation of product. Ironically - the workers like 'smart automation' kind of work a lot - the machines run the tedious part of the task and the workers 'run the machine' & measure parts... but 'smart automation' does require a more talented workforce - one that can train pretty fast & think on their feet. Hard to recruit people like that to work in a factory - the HR people really have to do a better job selling folks on the idea that modern factories aren't that bad [often are as clean or cleaner than the office] and in many cases these jobs offer far more autonomy than office jobs.
I prefer the German patent 2 tiered system somewhat
The American model is breaking down. IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, etc.. advocating for patent reform to minimize new patents awarded is kind of a telling sign that only the lawyers are getting rich for the majority of them
but at one point that flexibility was a godsend to inventors
we need a new system that rewards inventors without granting injunction status. there shouldn't be a single standard term length. groups should be allowed to pool resources and cooperate under an agreed framework without their legal team telling them it is impossible. there should be a clear position taken on employer's rights to a patent filed by an employee under various conditions
lots of issues, but:
- most politicians are old, and aren't keeping up
- most politicians are lawyers, and efficient laws make for poor lawyers
- there are always special interests to fund the politicians to keep the status quo
If you aren't a credible threat to actually build what you've invented, you're making yourself a target.
Sick and Tired Dude | 01.20.09 - 2:02 am | #
Amen.
Typical jingoist tripe about the European car companies. FIAT own FERRARI. Citroen and the other
French flavor make the best World Rally Racing cars available so stuff that crap and see how professionals do it when they take over.
Counterpointer looks like you could use a fireside chat to restore confidence
Anyone know when the next Chaplin movie is due out?
there shouldn't be a single standard term length.
There's not, pharmaceuticals qualify for all kinds of weird extensions, but I don't think that's what you had in mind ;p
dryfly
As to the lineworker comments. The way I see it is that projects going ahead do so because they have good rates of return.
Robot dexterity, power, and cost are decreasing exponentially.
Right now they're focussed on the high value areas. Over time those 1 or 2 jobs eliminated from a 500 worker shift will become 2-4 a year, and then 5-10.
Maybe not within the 50 year/90% context, but the trend is written on the wall.
With a move towards an electric drivetrain, major chunks of complexity are eliminated (by wiping out suppliers mostly)
So I'm not writing humans off, but until the limiting factor (price) stop decreasing exponentially I would be pessimistic for their future
My former superintendent would get up and tell parents that "We don't make things in this country anymore. We have intellectual capital". This was a favorite refrain of his, in various wordings. I think he thought that it was good. A superintendent of a district that would be considered successful, with stratospheric test scores.
Maybe its because they're going to be making Fiat Currency and not Fiat Automobiles.
anonymous 2:16pm
I know of separate classes of IP, each with their own rules, but I would like to see a continuous range of possible term lengths... preferably tied to a market mechanism.
as I mentioned in Germany based on a patent's inventiveness, there are 2 tiers. Top tier gets protection for longer, other tier is a shorter term. They also have to pay annual 'rents' to maintain the patent status
I would like to take lessons learned from systems already used and create a new generation of patent system that doesn't get overwhelmed approving patents for business plans, or trivial derivative works which should never have been legitimate, or have to deal with overlapping patents where both are valid but they each can block the other's use
Intellectual property is the worst maintained of the branches of law. Everything is just swept under the rug and the dead bodies are beginning to smell
Roosevelt Fireside Chats transcript archive
Remember that the essential accomplishment of the new legislation is that it makes it possible for banks more readily to convert their assets into cash than was the case before. More liberal provision has been made for banks to borrow on these assets at the Reserve Banks and more liberal provision has also been made for issuing currency on the security of those good assets. This currency is not fiat currency. It is issued only on adequate security -- and every good bank has an abundance of such security.
One more point before I close. There will be, of course, some banks unable to reopen without being reorganized. The new law allows the Government to assist in making these reorganizations quickly and effectively and even allows the Government to subscribe to at least a part of new capital which may be required.
I hope you can see from this elemental recital of what your government is doing that there is nothing complex, or radical in the process.
We had a bad banking situation. Some of our bankers had shown themselves either incompetent or dishonest in their handling of the people's funds. They had used the money entrusted to them in speculations and unwise loans. This was of course not true in the vast majority of our banks but it was true in enough of them to shock the people for a time into a sense of insecurity and to put them into a frame of mind where they did not differentiate, but seemed to assume that the acts of a comparative few had tainted them all. It was the Government's job to straighten out this situation and do it as quickly as possible -- and the job is being performed .
May 7 1933 excerpt
How far we've come
Re: Robots
I've always thought agriculture would be a great place to apply robotics; the lack of wide-spread advances in that area could be attributed to the availability of cheap immigrant labor. Parallels to Europe right before the big plague?
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=177
Rob Dawg writes:
"Chrysler-Peugeot Citroën "
They wouldn't be able to keep them running long enough to finish a test drive
Could you imagine the build quality which would result from that unholy aliance ?
Fiat-Chrysler.. laughable, so does combining a 3rd rate and a 4th rate car company make a 7th rate company ?
War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel, June 8, 1967
In 2003, an independent commission of highly regarded experts was created to look into the matter. The Commission consisted of Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff; General Raymond G. Davis, United States Marine Corps, (MOH), Former Assistant Commandant of The Marine Corps; Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, United States Navy (Ret.), Former Judge Advocate General Of The Navy; and Ambassador James Akins (Ret.), Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.
Anon 2:26, American Patents require maintenance payments also to remain in effect. It can also be argued that we also have a dual patent system, if one counts design patents, however I would be the first to admit that they are more trademark-like and less like an industrial design registration.
Dryfly, I think that the oft cited Germany is perhaps a good model of your point on keeping the production know-how in your economy. There they know how to run an advanced economy and still have it be a net exporter. Krugman got his Nobel partly on proving the geographically critical mass idea of economic development, that "deep bench" you were mentioning (i.e., places like the Bay Area has been for electronics and computing 1960-present).
IP in the end is simply a business tool and thus part of the business whole, like factories, sales/retail outlets, or workers/management are. You need the business to make it really worth while, like a factory, people can usually replace it some how if they really want to.
Ugh, that last line should have read "any single part of a business, like a factory, people can usually replace somehow if they really want to and go around you."
Perhaps one big pile is better than two little piles...
I don't know what's more disturbing, the fact that half of the folks left in the USA who actually understand manufacturing have posted on this thread, or the fact that these posts were largely made after 2 AM EST
Yen Gains to Record Versus Pound on Concern Bank Losses to Rise - Bloomberg.com
Would the point of a merger be reciprocity with Fiat's international markets? The get a factory and access to the US market again, while Chrysler can sell Jeeps on Fiat's lots?
bgates,
Kinda like "ubernerd" posts for manufacturing, isn't it?
I've done IT work in support of custom fabricators for aerospace and I loved it. Fascinating stuff.
"Fascinating stuff."
yes, but also depressing insofar as this kind of knowledge is so far out of the mainstream experience for Americans born after 1970. The brain drain out of real engineering towards software engineering and, worst of all, 'financial engineering' has created a world where this kind of chatter seems like it is from another planet.
The general public, those belonging to non-manufacturing jobs, tend to think of assembly lines building cars when they hear the word "manufacturing." The reality is that everything from food, chemicals, pharma, biotech, and more can fall under that category, and many require sophisticated and highly automated factories. I don't think people think of their prescription drugs as "manufactured," but they are. I think that's one reason why problems with the Detroit 3 gathered so much interest and sympathy. People seem to think that the car companies are the last cornerstones of American manufacturing or something like that; the truth is that there is quite a lot of other manufacturing activity going on.
Enlightening dialogue. Thanks, guys.
The brink
US and UK on brink of debt disaster- International Business-News-The Economic Times
From Jesse's Café Américain
Brink passeth over:
Yen Gains to Record Versus Pound on Concern Bank Losses to Rise - Bloomberg.com
C
Wow, I thought I couldn't imagine something worse than Chrysler, but Fiat? Ugh...
rent_to_own:
Interesting points. Really makes me think. You are right on about the "manufactured" food thing.
Yeah, Fiat gets 35% for retooling a plant. But they'll have to fix it again, eh Tony?
RE: 10 and 30 year Treasuries.
Bond market waits for Treasury to start monetizing debt | Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee
ZOMG! Jubilee is being mentioned in the British national press...
If quantitive easing doesn't work, then the only thing left is to wipe out all debts. (and our currencies with them?)
Dan Roberts: The nuclear options |
Comment is free |
The Guardian
Read The Telegraph today. Europe is going DOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
DreadLetterDay | 01.20.09 - 5:39 am | #
Whocoodanode?!
This confirms yesterday's thesis that the ugly marry the ugly and the stupid marry the stupid.
Carry on.
I missed peak civilization.
Manufacturing can be a difficult to define category
Manufacturing is simply the creation of wealth, which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisify human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.
The value-add in manufacturing is the combination of the durability of the consumer good with the efficiency factor of production via end-user assembly.
This is why taking McDonald's as a manufacturing entity is something of a joke since hamburgers are one-off purchases and the consumers can assemble the ingredients themselves for about what they pay Ronnie.
Does retooling mean they add pizza ovens to the employee cafeteria?
Chrysler, welcome to Fédération Internationale des Associations de Thanatoloques.
Can they control Chrysler by fiat?
I order you to become profitable...
Nostrovia,
"Does retooling mean they add pizza ovens to the employee cafeteria?"
It means they are going to switch out the executive board. Really more of a tool-swap.
The Telegraph implies that all things from THAT points, looks the other way side of the Channel are going to collapse in flames...
OK, maybe you could report the day that the Telegraph DOESN'T do that.
All indicators look ugly at this moment, I want my hOpe bounce this week. It's historic, it's unprecedented, there should be a 500 point pop solely due to Cheney's departure.
CR, This morning's Bailout Links are now up. Links to 9 stories so far this morning from Soros on Tarp and the stimulus to the UN asking for a US bailout of Cuba(sort of)...oh yeah and the guy who owns the Bunny Ranch Brothel in nevada is asking again for a $1 billion bailout...only this time he says it's satire...he HATES the bailouts...he's one of us it seems...anyway, i have a link to all these stories plus about 5 more...
i'll try to paste a live link for everyone but if not just copy/paste...it's the lead story on the first page...
dailybail.com
thanks, DB
Someone get some smelling salts for the Stoxx50.
Man, when the Bushies kick the can down the road to someone, they kick that can EXACTLY.
Like, several semesters of trig and a major European soccer star worth of exact kick.
CR and readers, one more thing...if you do stop by to see today's links (i'll be doing a round-up of bailout links every morning, fwiw and i'll try to stop by here early in the morning to give you guys the scoop on them)...and if you have the time, please leave a quick hello in the comments on my site just saying you stopped by from CR...it'll mean a lot to me...
and please notice that i'm not running any advertising on my site of any sort, so i don't make anything from whatever little traffic i get...i'm not trying to make any money, i just want to stop these goddamned bailouts of failure...and the launch of dailybail is just the first step in that direction...there's lot's more coming...
thanks a ton, DB
Another Update...there are now 19 bailout news links up for this morning...some really good stuff on bernake, inside merrill and a Jimmy Rogers interview from China on the bailouts...it's classic
I will keep adding more links throughout the day.
thanks, DailyBail.com
Fiat ( and Renault too ) makes some interesting diesel powered cars . No,maybe they will make it to the US . BTW, I once had a Fiat 124 Spider which was fun to drive but a headache to keep running .
OT - Didn't see this last night. "Time To Sell Treasuries", as per South Korea's Biggest Fund.
Its time to sell U.S. Treasuries, said Kim, who took over as head of investments at the start of the year. The stimulus plan may cause inflation. The U.S. will raise the benchmark interest rate.
Bloomberg.com
.....Morning....I found that USS Liberty report troubling. It makes you wonder what other skeletons are still hung up in the closet from decades ago.
ernt_to_own writes:
Define 'wealth.'
He did:
Manufacturing is simply the creation of wealth, which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisify human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.
FIAT will introduce a new model to be manufactured at the Chrysler plant: the "Ronzoni Downhill".
Gary,
Like the old joke, you'll need two of each. One for parts.
Well, re manufacturing and what it is, I disagree with Troy. Manufacturing involves adding value to raw materials and component parts. Like bakers, or printers, steelmakers, etc.
Black Star Ranch writes:
.....Morning....I found that USS Liberty report troubling.
You should. Not that America has any right to get up on its hind legs about betraying its allies or going back on its word -- but it certainly serves to remind people that Israel is not the all-singing all-dancing America Jr.
Or maybe it is, see above about our tendency to screw people and then pretend it didn't happen.
OK, I was being a bit too smug, but I notice that his definition is basically circular - wealth is what manufacturing creates, and manufacturing creates wealth.
Or to quote the quote -
'...which itself is defined as that which provides services that satisfy human needs and wants -- either directly via consumer goods or indirectly via capital goods that facilitate the production of consumer goods.'
First, where did 'services' come from? A back massage is not manufactured, but it will often satisfy a want or need. And knowing someone capable of providing said service when requested may be a decent way to measure wealth, but again has nothing to do with manufacturing.
Through we can all be good reductionists and define absolutely all human activity in economic terms, manufacturing is not all human activity, by any means. Raising a child is the very definition of satisfying human needs and wants, and yet in this context, I don't think the wealth that a child represents has anything to do with consumer or capital goods.
Wealth is much harder to define adequately than manufacturing, even if a definition was provided.
r_t_o: Troy may be angling for a seat on the Fed.
Why would Fiat want to inherit the labor contracts?
thats a cracker... do they get bags of "cerberus" dog food too??
Yoringe | 01.19.09 - 11:39 pm | #
Yes, but used. Fiat overpaied
I've been away. Did Joe Kernen declare a period of mourning and go into retirement? He's absent from CNBC and no one is mentioning him even on the hourly updates. I don't miss him, btw.
Why would Fiat want to inherit the labor contracts?
Lou Minatti | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 8:27 am | #
It would be so unfortunate if something were to happen to your union.
If I understand it, Fiat doesn't explicitly assume any responsibility for Chrysler debt. However, the threat that defaulted bondholders might reposess this wonderful retooled factory might decrease default chances.
There was talk of GM selling off plant and equipment. Is this the same thing?
I think it has possibilities
1. It will give dealers something to sell even if they are initially re- badged Fiat stuff. Wouldn't be surprised at an EPA waver for a while.
2.And it will keep jobs. The big question will be are they going to be UAW jobs or Toyota-type jobs
I sure hope Fiat has improved its products. Back 25 years ago they had a presence and their vehicles were shit.
And I thought the banks were f===ed.
Why would Fiat want to inherit the labor contracts?
Who says it is?
Perhaps a new meme:
We're all sub.
I had a Fiat Spyder. Fun to drive (when it would start).
Electronic bank run on Barclays? Possibly Britain too if you look at the pound.
BCS: Summary for BARCLAYS PLC ADR- Yahoo! Finance
Do a YouTube search for "Fiat Panda 4x4".
I'd buy one if they sold it in America.
I spent a good chunk of my adolescence pushing a Fiat 2000 Spider home after various epic mechanical and electrical failures. Nonetheless, if we are really moving to small cars in the US once and for all, I would love love love the opportunity to buy a new Alfa here -- the current Alfas are some of the most fun-to-drive small cars in the world, period. If Fiat can use Chrysler's distribution network and/or manufacturing facilities to get them to us, so much the better.
Fiat is a pretty strong company these days, and it's a good fit for Chrysler -- perhaps the best fit. I think this is promising news.
RBS down 667% premarket.
RBS: Summary for ROYAL BANK ADS NEW- Yahoo! Finance
Is it possible to get an Olympics rescinded?
Wealth is much harder to define adequately than manufacturing
I agree. If I was stuck on a deserted island there may be plenty of resources but if I had to spend the whole day fishing for food it would not matter. Let's say I created a net and then I only had to fish in the morning. In my way of thinking I would be wealthier than before. I just created time for myself to do something else. In fact the only way to get more wealthy would be if I had to spend the least amount of time ensuring my comfort and survival. Now Let's say there were two of us. If you spent the morning fishing and I sat on the beach would you share your fish with me. Let's say I picked up a coconut off the ground. You might say no fish for you but what if I had to climb the tree and get you a coconut you might trade. In fact we might start using coconuts for trading labor as they last a long time in case there were days we could not fish. After awhile it might start to make sense just to trade coconuts on paper only since it would free up time to do other things and just rectify the accounts every so often. Now if you worked hard an stored up a bunch of coconuts and I goofed off you would be wealthier than me because you would have the moral right to command me to work to pay you back. I a sense you have more time to spend in the way you choose and I have less. The moral of the story when a man gets married he is by my definition poor because he will not ever have any time to spend in the way he chooses.
They needed your order to get the financing to commit to the solar panels. It's what happens when start-up companies can't get traditional financing. It's happening all over.
RBS down 667% premarket.
Are you making a prediction?
Rather link says presently, RBS down 66.7% premarket.
This is the same move when Studebaker Packer dealers did when they took on Mercedes Benz before they failed. leaving Mercedes with a established dealer net work. Very smart of Fiat and Chrysler. Chrysler now has a window to a real market around the world making it a better value to sell. Fiat is back into the US market as well.
We used to think Fiat could give the cars away and they would make up the loss on parts sales. Miss those money makers.
Willie Running Wild
LACK OF TREASURY HEAD THIS WEEK SHOCK WAVES
The USDept Treasury has no head. After inauguration day on Tuesday the 20th of January, look for possible volatility, disruptions, and fast moving markets. Such is a possible climate for a powerful USDollar decline overnight. Few realize that financial market interventions of numerous types can only be executed by the hand of the Treasury Secretary. That post is vacant tomorrow, as the Geithner confirmation has hit a snag. The real reasons for the snag are concealed in my opinion, as attention focus on nonsense like tax returns. His involvement at the center of the great Wall Street fraud episode is the likely reason. Without the potential for market intervention, the gold price might enjoy a strange upward lift, much like the lift seen in September immediately before the $138 billion JPMorgan reload. The gold lift was around $100 in a single week. Watch for some possible unbridled moments for a few horses free to run wild.
Volker,
Two Fiats...don't be silly. That implies the parts are interchangeable.
bearly,
"I sure hope Fiat has improved its products. Back 25 years ago they had a presence and their vehicles were shit."
Well, that would be a good match for Chrysler then. I mean how much of a challenge is it to slapped together two firms with similar engineering and manufacturing goals.
Nostrovia,
Today has got to be a pump day.
REBear writes:
Today has got to be a pump day.
That would appear not to be the case from the British perspective.
In addition, full public ownership of the banks would greatly facilitate the creation of a bad bank that would hold on its balance sheet all the toxic assets (illiquid assets of highly uncertain value) currently held by the high street banks. The key problem with any bad bank proposal is the price it pays for the toxic assets it acquires from the banks. If all the banks, and the bad bank, are publicly owned, this problem goes away. The toxic assets are simply moved to the balance sheet of the bad bank. They could be valued at anything from zero to their notional value or historic cost (or even higher). It would be a redistribution of wealth from one state-owned entity to another state-owned entity.
FT.com | Willem Buiter's Maverecon | Time to take the banks into full public ownership
Well, that would be a good match for Chrysler then. I mean how much of a challenge is it to slapped together two firms with similar engineering and manufacturing goals.
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 8:58 am | #
LOL!
Re: The USDept Treasury has no head.
This is good news.
rich writes:
"It's what happens when start-up companies can't get traditional financing."
How about no finanicng? My wife is working pro bono for the last 6 months.
UAW has to go. Choices are simple. GM and Ford are world wide companies. They can go BK walk away from the union and dump all the legacy cost and really compete with the American assembled imports. They can also increase or completely rebadge their non US product under their NA badges as they do some now. Pontiac G8 is a Holden from Australia. Any money from the Fed is a pay back to the unions.
Passengers riding on SST got to experience a train wreck first hand - DOWN 40% premkt.
err... STT
We are experiencing the consequences of placing in charge of these companies people with no knowledge of the business they've been given to manage.
BAC now off 10% in premkt too.
"Passengers riding on STT got to experience a train wreck first hand"
You can fool all of the people some of the time...?
I wish them well... but they will never manufacture a product that I would buy.
UUU,
I believe Stuart Levey is the acting Treasury Secretary until Geithner is confirmed.
I wonder if the British youth looked upon today with such hope as their American counterpart.
This would be a good one to start with -
Fiat 500 by DIESEL on sale in Europe — Autoblog
Given that we're in a Fiat economy already, it's the perfect match.
"Any money from the Fed is a pay back to the unions."
That's all it is? If you complete the destruction of the unions you will find out what unintended consequences really are, and they won't all be welcome.
Look hard at countries in which the unions have been destroyed or emasculated.
Today has got to be a pump day.
REBear | 01.20.09 - 9:03 am | #
That's just what they want you to think.
Pavel Chichikov writes:
Look hard at countries in which the unions have been destroyed or emasculated.
If he hasn't seen it in declining real wages and terms of employment in his own country, he's not going to see it when he looks abroad.
The Italian Navy always joins the battle at the very end of a war. I wonder if this will hold true for Fiat and the U.S. auto industry.
A laff riot:
link
"The Obama administration is taking consequences out of our nation."
She says, "If you go make a bad business decision and you lose your shirt, you just go to the government and get some money."
I guess nobody told her who Hank Paulson worked for. Nothing like reinventing history.
The basic thing about Chrysler-Fiat should be obvious: there is already overcapacity in that industry and this does nothing to address that.
The Japanese and Koreans can easily keep the US market fully supplied with cars that outcompete any Chrysler or Fiat products and they can beat them on price, too.
"Look hard at countries in which the unions have been destroyed or emasculated."
They have had a major role in the destruction of the Auto industry as well as others. They are still functioning in the dinosaur ages. When KK wanted to buy Chrysler he demanded the UAW be part owner. This would have made the union responsible for their actions and end the parasite of greed they have become.
The Unions have lost their way just like most of America has. Simply look at the mess we are in and tell me what they have done to enter the global market?
Cost to the taxpayer on legacy costs are there one way or the other. We pay in BK when the pension board absorbs the lose or we feed them to stay alive supporting the whole mess, probably a prolong death.
Moe:
When KK wanted to buy Chrysler he demanded the UAW be part owner. This would have made the union responsible for their actions and end the parasite of greed they have become.
If only we could all learn from the wisdom of Larry Kravis.
Kirk Kerkorian, but in the same species.
Larry? Henry.
Whatever. PE maven. Ask me about my leverage. =)
Oh wow, BAC about to have a five handle...
anonymous writes:
Kirk Kerkorian, but in the same species.
Ah, I thought he meant Kohlberg Kravis( Roberts) by KK.
yep. Five handle.
Kirk Kerkoria
.....19-degrees in DC - they expect it to be about 10-degrees warmer at noon. What a zoo.
....Well,it seems he did it. Amongst the sound of falling timber, Bush made it thru to the end of his Presidency without the use of martial law nor the complete destruction of our economic system. I imagine he's relieved - I sure am.
Now it's The Chosen One's shot. I wonder how patient we will be, including members of the media. For some, it will be a very short honeymoon. Things might get a bit testy as the financial health of our nation erodes. No time for OJT. Much to achieve in the first 100-days.
Much to achieve in the first 100-days.
Black Star Ranch | 01.20.09 - 9:38 am | #
Eh, he'll get Timmy confirmed, run the SPX to 1,300, and who will care.
Bush made it thru to the end of his Presidency without the use of martial law nor the complete destruction of our economic system.
I guess that depends on what the definition of "is" is.
Basel Too writes:
Bush made it thru to the end of his Presidency without the use of martial law nor the complete destruction of our economic system.
we will miss him, he was a American Revolutionary..
TIME Person of the Year 2004: George W. Bush
So.... UYG to zero, then?
Area in DC is "maxed out" - mass of humanity. I'm kinda waiting for Forest Gump to run out into the Pond and hug that old girl-friend - Stella? Wait that's another movie. I was there once, as a contingent of Marines keeping the blacks from rioting back in the 60's. I remember it being much warmer though...
"They have had a major role in the destruction of the Auto industry as well as others. "
The auto industry is worker owned?
So... no Obama rally?
I'm kinda waiting for Forest Gump to run out into the Pond and hug that old girl-friend - Stella?
It's Jennnny.
So... no Obama rally?
Does FAZ count?
...thnx, Basil, [eg]
Does FAZ count?
anonymous | 01.20.09 - 9:46 am | #
lol. I skipped this run up... and don't know if it will be worth it going into FAS afterwards.
Vegas CRE in full crash mode:
Punch-Drunk Vegas Retail Market Staggering
Interesting Times writes:
So... no Obama rally?
Give it a couple hours, his is not in yet....
on a sucky note;
I have a mid-20s friend who works for a relief agency in the ivory coast. she gets paid in sterling, but her substantial student loans are in USD. Been telling her to get out of sterling at about 2.0; she called hysterical this morning when it breached 1.40
"The auto industry is worker owned?"
When a union can stop the daily business (strike) then your answer is yes they are part owner from extortion.
No agreement between Management and the union has ever been model in a market contraction. Fat heads agreements (Management and Unions)of days gone by when we built for the world, now the shoe of competition is on the other foot. This lead to unrealistic deals and now we have an inconvenient reality. Time baseline it and start over with 401Ks and realistic benefits that flex with the future. The import workers seem to have done a good job with out them but then they are dealing in the modern world with out Unions.
Moe:
If you take a good look at the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
limits you will see that they are lower then the UAW contract.
So If Fed funds are going to bailout UAW pensioners, which will have to happen, it will be a lot cheaper to do it via PBGC.
UAW will bitch and moan, so would I. But
the Gov't owes UAW no more then it does any other pensioner.
UAW certainly helped bankrupt the Pig3. And so naturally they feel the right to be more equal than others.
For UAW I will quote Nero:
Get me my eyecup, I want to shed a tear for them.
Why would Fiat want to inherit the labor contracts?
Lou Minatti | Homepage | 01.20.09 - 8:27 am | #
Compared to Italian unions ours are 'tame'... they'll feel like it is a holiday to deal with our unions.
"If you take a good look at the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
limits you will see that they are lower then the UAW contract."
I would be mad as an retired employee as well. But The B3 are at the point of death. Then they get the same result. Pick your poison. The PBGC will have to be bailed out by the Feds. I am under the impression retirees get SS as well. How that truly plays I don't know. The government will respond as the UAW gives generously to the DEMs. That is the pay back, ugly part of the game.
Hmm. Maybe my next car will be a Fiat.
I've been wanting a car that can run biodiesel. Currently, the only car maker in the US with a diesel car is VW (Jetta TDI). The Jetta is a bit large for my inner city lifestyle.
There are biodiesel stations poping up all over the place in Seattle:
Propel
"Italian engineering"...
Better than American one. "Fiat Group is the largest automobile manufacturer in Italy, with a range of cars starting from small Fiats to sports cars made by FERRARI". Not to mention lamborghini (nowadays owned by the Volkswagen group aka Porsche)...
I wouldn't go around trumpeting Ferrari and Lamborghini as engineering marvels. Chrysler actually owned Lambo in the late 80s (one of Lee Iacocca's acquisitions after they got healthier post the last government loan).
They essentially rebuilt every car over here before shipping them to dealers. Quality control was nonexistent. Truly garbage autos.
"When a union can stop the daily business (strike) then your answer is yes they are part owner from extortion."
Employees are not owners. As individuals they have no influence over their working conditions or compensation, unless they combine. Nor, eventually, in the race to the bottom, will they be able to afford the products they produce.
Again, look at countries in which unions were crushed. It's not an inspiring list.
Countries with false-front or non-existent unions: Germany 1931-45; Soviet Union; China.
ot sure how a car company that has trouble selling in its own market (Fiat) will another company that has trouble selling in its own market? does this seem like the blind leading the blind?
Fiat's getting taken on this deal.
how appropriate the worlds most unreliable car (fiat) to own the second most unreliable
Pavel Chichikov writes:
"Employees are not owners."
The Mafia was not owners either but conducted the same tactics.
Don't worry, Our Government would rather pay then face the reality of any responsible failure. Kind of the same.