1) Destroying the value of the currency by printing more money, lending money to deadbeat bankers and investors, and encouraging fraud and rampant speculation with more debt.
ummmm I know your forgot to do your taxes Mr. G but how did you not see what was happening under your ny fed umbrella? You are a bigger part of this fraud and wall street madness than anyone will ever know
Re TARP:
"We're considering upgrading kitchens in federal buildings across the country with granite counter tops. After that we'll move on to curb appeal while working on our credit rating so we can flip this into a much larger loan for our next project. You know deficits never go down. It's not like they're making more money... err... um... what's the next question?"
Does anyone else note the irony in using "tranches" to describe pieces of the TARP when the word was overwhelmingly associated with the securitization that got us into this mess?
More important questions than "why didnt you check your housekeepers papers more closely and follow up after they expired?" or why didnt you pay the taxes that were beyond the statute of limitations immediately once it became clear to you had underpaid. I would add, "Where exactly did all that TARP money go?" and exactly how good is the collateral for all the alphabet soup lending that the Fed has been doing, is it better than your average pawn shop?"
This morning's Bailout links have been posted...20 bailout stories so far...i had a hot pic of Batgirl in tall blck boots and a super skimpy bikini and cape, but i buckled after 15 minutes and replaced the pic...sorry about that..
i probaly should have left the batgirl pic up...
as a general question, would that offend anyone here if my posted story image was a very hot BatGirl...or do i need to keep things more in line with publication standards...
i'll post a link to the BatGirl pic here for your perusal...
The 'kinder and gentler world' got too kind and too gentle in corrupt ways for a selected few and a lot harder and colder for the rest of us. It is time for some beheadings.
i hang out here all day and have for 28 months...jsut providing bailout links...and my site has no advertising..not trying to steal traffic or make any money...
Does anyone else note the irony in using "tranches" to describe pieces of the TARP when the word was overwhelmingly associated with the securitization that got us into this mess? Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 01.21.09 - 10:05 am | # It's just an attempt to get away from the now inoperative first half/second half description seeing as third and fourth "halves" seem baked in.
"Why was Lehman Brothers allowed to collapse in September? And why was American International Group saved by the government only 48 hours later?"
"Why didnt the Treasury and the Federal Reserve act more aggressively to stabilize the financial system after the downfall of Bear Stearns last spring?"
POW!!! BAM!!!
Tune in tomorrow same bat-time, same bat-channel!
In a financial crisis many of you are no doubt googling questions things like, "What will those bastards in Washington do next?"--or "Who the hell is supposed to pay for all this?" Not to get all political this week but what do you all think the new political leaders are googling now (that they're in power)?
As always, good answers are rewarded with nods of agreement from legions of readers.
Rueters says:
"Timothy Geithner, though tarnished by disclosures of his failure to pay taxes, is likely too uniquely qualified..."
BS, I say. Being an insider is not a unique qualification. The reality is that he is seen as a hope for the 'club' to keep one of their own in control of the spigot. They truly believe that the world revolves around them and that others should pay any price to preserve their 'specialness'.
Why doesn't the IMF withhold their end of the payroll tax anyhow?
Odd that you could be a W-2 employee, with your end of the taxes withheld from every check while your employer withholds none. I can see how confusion could occur.
This would be a suitable explanation for me, unless the tax scofflaw in question was running for SecTreas or head of IRS, etc, etc.
I don't know Geithner, but I know people that know him - and they all think he is a very good person, very smart, easy to work with, very effective, etc.
Roubini and Setser both worked for him, and they both think he will be a great Treasury Secretary. It's disappointing that he didn't pay his taxes - that seems dumb to me, but I think he is a good guy.
"Why should we bail out people who came to Congress to demand the removal of leverage limits, got what they asked for, then blew themselves up with the very leverage they demanded to be able to use."
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
"Why doesn't the IMF withhold their end of the payroll tax anyhow? "
The IMF "grosses up" the pay of americans to make up for the Self Employment Tax. In addition, all american employees are required to read and sign a yearly disclosure form that they understand this.
Geithner has no excuse.
Again, as this story develops, it is amazing how are view of events can change. For most last four months the convential wisdom has been that letting Lehman Brothers fail was a mistake. However, Bank of America's problems are pretty much the result of Merrill Lynch's "bad" assets, that Merrill, like Lehman was pretty much an insolvent institution, and now that its is part of BoA, BoA is pretty much insolvent. Similarly, AIG rescue has, according to the CBO, resulted in a transfer of 56 billion dollars of losses from its shareholders, bondholders, and purchasers of it CDS instruments to the U.S. taxpayers. Which was the bigger mistake then: letting Lehman fail, or not letting Merrill and AIG fail? Or maybe the mistake was doing both? Lehman was not so much a cause, but a symptom, a symptom that finally told the patient that it was not the usual muscle aches or heart burn that had afflicted her over the years, but a deep and dangerous cancer that was eating at her vitals.
The neighbors always thought that the young man next door was a kind and generous individual. Current and former colleagues said he was a good person always willing to lend a helping hand and honest to a fault.
So everyone was in shock when they learned that such a decent person could have committed such an act - some actually denied that he could have been involved and to this day insist that it all was just an innocent mistake.
Bob_in_MA, I've always been very careful on my taxes - and I think he should be quizzed hard on this issue. BUT ...
If he is going to be confirmed (I think he will), I'd hate to see the entire hearing to be about his taxes, and NOT about the key issues facing the country. That would make the hearing a complete joke and a waste of time.
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 10:23 am | #
Quite yer friggin' whining. Where were you when the Bush Crime Syndicate robbed us blind?
CR: Roubini and Setser both worked for him, and they both think he will be a great Treasury Secretary.
I guess I didn't realize they had the power to absolve crimes.
He signed multiple requests to be reimbursed for half the tax payment, took the money, and then says he didn't know he owed the money. It's patently absurd.
I know that many speak well of him. I'm not sanguine about the job the NY Fed did under his leadership, though I do note he at least was one of the earlier voices in that group seeing the bubbles. But the tax issue truly bothers me. In simple terms, one of the major flaws we have seen in the group that just vacated office was a tendency to ignore laws and rules that were inconvenient to them regardless of the detriment to others. Geithner's knowing failure to pay what he owed makes me wonder if he'd be more of the same. In his position, and particularly in the current situation, this perception would work against him even if he were an outstanding, honorable and honest performer of the duties.
Add to this the questions you've frequently seen on this list in regard to him - the questions of "if he can do it, why shouldn't we" in regard to payment of taxes - and consider that this question will run through the minds of much of the general public. This creates yet another difficulty that is unnecessary.
Geithner is supremely skilled and competent, but he is not the only one who meets that level of qualification. I would hope that at least one of the other individuals who are also of such quality would not have this particular burden. I am hoping that the committee recommends against the selection of Mr. Geithner for this cabinet position.
he let it all happen under his watch right there in the middle of the storm.. he is wall street and banker cell bitch...why doesn't everyone see that he was a huge part of this debacle..
We don't expect our police or military or public officals to behave according to the law or to keep their word. Why should anybody be ashamed when they operate in the same manner as the state?
People think this is trivial but it is one of the underlying causes of the crisis. Law is a sacred concept. It's been made into the rulebook for Calvinball. Nothing to prevent it from happening... other than your desire to maintain a functioning complex society.
CR makes a good point on the taxes - it's far too easy to get distracted by the black/white tax issue of not bothering with the far more vexing and substantial questions about "What just happened and why?"
I just hope that there are some substantial questions instead of the usual congressional bloviating that seems to be par for the course.
Gonn'a get a little like Jas here, but fellow US posters, if our President wanted a gold desk this morning with stripper's hanging from the ceiling, that's what he would get.
The Bankster's with the help of The Treasury Secretary and Federal Reserve have brought us here today, because of money, power and privledge.
Most of us have no money, power or privledge and our future generation's labor is being committed to keep this Hiarchy in power.
We need to see some perk walks, some jail time and accountability of what we have witnesed for the past year of the rape of our Country.
Geithner didn't pay his taxes, and he wants the job as head of the IRS. This IS an important issue (CR).
And what exactly makes him so qualified? That he knows how to dish out money? No one in power realized the consequences of their decisions, but now he is qualified to fix it? Count me in with others here e.g. Angry Saver and the like.
Calculated Risk writes:
Bob_in_MA, I've always been very careful on my taxes - and I think he should be quizzed hard on this issue. BUT ...
If he is going to be confirmed (I think he will), I'd hate to see the entire hearing to be about his taxes, and NOT about the key issues facing the country. That would make the hearing a complete joke and a waste of time.
Yes, it upsets me.
best wishes.
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:27 am |
Not to be rude, but don't you get it? The over-riding issue here is integrity and trust, and the fact that there is absolutely none. We are not going to solve the "bigger" issue until we solve some of the base issues!
CR,
I respect your opinion, but the refrain I hear from folks generally here in NYC is a variation on "everything's a fraud now". And a hundred bad jokes about skipping taxes and getting a Treasury sec. job.
Restoring some trust that the laws are equally applied, and that insiders are not exempt from the rules, would do something to restore trust in government.
The housekeeper deal was enough to derail Wood, Chavez and Zooey...but the tax evasion, from a guy who would be in charge of the IRS, is just mind-numbing.
I think it's a bad choice.
What is it about republicans that they'll stand in the way of progress that benefits all people? Their modus operendi is to debate, obfuscate and delay.
Republicans: Why the hate for the average citizens? Especially considering you're all average citizens?
Give Geithner credit, whenever he becomes topic du jour--the markets get very bullish. Pushed off the 7 handle today while bonds, insurance, and banks do well. Guess you know his constituency anyway. "Some might call you elite (another word for explotative plunderers), I call you my base"
I just hope Volker isn't there as window dressing to placate a certain segment. Just because there's money involved doesn't mean identity politics isn't.
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 10:23 am | #
Quite yer friggin' whining. Where were you when the Bush Crime Syndicate robbed us blind?
Get a life.
Bill in Los Angeles | 01.21.09 - 10:28 am
That's intelligent Bill. Since we had bad decisions in the past, that justifies bad decisions for the future. Let go of the past Bill.
Not to be rude, but don't you get it? The over-riding issue here is integrity and trust, and the fact that there is absolutely none. We are not going to solve the "bigger" issue until we solve some of the base issues!
Smartass | 01.21.09 - 10:34 am | #
The banks own Tim as much as they own the Senators confirming him. He's going to be installed.
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole reason they floated the tax delinquency issue is to keep the official record talk away from the important questions, and to let the proles vent a little about something they understand.
With all due respect, I would argue that we need someone who was (A) smart enough to have forseen this meltdown and (B) with enough cojones to have protested/tried to stop the actions that made it possible.
Geithner doesn't qualify under either of those criteria (leaving out the tax honesty issue).
He's got it all wrong - this isn't the "mother" of anything.
It's the thrice-inbred bastard child of every weak-willed politician, greedy banker, moronic citizen and all the other crises that came before this one.
Mr. Sparkle writes:
...
It's the thrice-inbred bastard child of every weak-willed politician, greedy banker, moronic citizen and all the other crises that came before this one.
....the hypocrisy here. I might guess that 90% of the posters are are in fact posers. Most here have been untruthful in SOME regard to past tax filings. The system makes it so. When even the IRS can't agree on many specifics re: tax law, most citizens can't be expected to either.
In Geithner's case, he is held to a higher level AND, he got caught. His violation was pretty basic. His appointed position requires one who DOESN'T have IRS irregularities in his past, PURE AND SIMPLE. He should not be confirmed.
Volcker was a great Fed Chairman, and he warned about these problems pretty early
Great? Best of a bad lot is more apt.
Consider. Under Volcker's direction, owner's equivalent rent replaced actual house price inflation in the CPI. This idiocy (house inflation is wealth not inflation) was the primary underlying cause of the housing bubble.
Volcker also went way overboard on raising rates in the eighties. Paying people extra not to spend is just as silly as Bernanke's plan to steal from people to get them to spend.
Calculated Risk writes: Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
Sorry CR, have to join the Greek chorus: We missed it because people in Congress, the banking industry and the Administration wanted it to happen to produce a "Bush Boom" for their political benefit after 9/11.
Elves didn't get us here. This was the ultimate white swan event. The word "whocoodanode" was actually coined for it.
There aren't going to be any serious questions about that.
Jan. 21 (Bloomberg) -- BlackRock Inc., the largest publicly traded U.S. asset manager, said fourth-quarter earnings fell 84 percent as the firm cut jobs and marked down the value of hedge-fund investments.
1) no batgirl for me; imploding markets disaster pr0n keeps me busy enough...
2) been looking at banks' balance sheets and am starting to wonder why taxpayer funding is taking a junior position to bondholders. Jam all the bonds down into preferred equity status and the taxpayers can get a much better deal, or at least a much less bad deal. That step would also make the good bank/bad bank approach more workable.
The best Geithner and company have come up with so far is convertible bonds, which would dilute the common, but leaves the senior bonds intact.
Bush and Crew "lose" 9 billion in Iraq. Crickets. Bush and Paulson largely give out $350+ billion with almost no accountability (stealing?). Mostly crickets. Obama's guy didn't pay the proper amount of tax, totalling in the thousands. Apoplexy.
Mebbe the treasury secretary should take his oath of office on a stack of T-bills or the $100 engraving plate. Afterall what would "so help me God" mean in a society with no real fear of diety. Only those intrinsic internal qualites commanded from on high would restrain the "animal spirits" which always lead to corruption and loss of gov't legitimacy. But money and IOUs, now there is something to bind one's oath upon.
You guys don't have your thinking caps on straight. There must've been 3-4 guys considered for Treasury. Geithner was probably selected because he is the "cleanest".
Also; I hired a company to provide housekeeping services and I suspect there could be some illegals working for them. If Americans were hard over on this we'd flock to companies that advertise all of their labor has paperwork that checks out and is legal. We aren't so there's no market for these types of companies. I would patronize such a company on principle, but aren't you suppose to assume that any company hiring work will check their own paperwork?
Am I supposed to ask for the papers of everyone who works for me? (Okay, I'm sure its the law but...)
agree w/ black star ranch about geithner. he willingly chose to break tax laws multiple times in multiple years. he only paid because he got caught, not because he discovered the error and wanted to do the right thing. end of story. no confirmation. if you or i did what he did, we would have paid massive penalties. tim's penalties were magically waived. and the pols wonder why voters have so little respect or trust in elected officials. i guarantee there are scores of people as qualified as tim to lead the treasury.
@Nemo - did you see this at Across the Curve:
Hiroshi Yoshikawa is head of a government group which measures the business cycle in Japan. He predicts a severe recession lasting three years.
"Volcker also went way overboard on raising rates in the eighties."
Did he? I lived through his rein and paid 10% (bargain at the time) home mortgage and a floating CRE loan in excess of18%. I should feel he nuts. I don't, he had the brains and the balls of discipline not seen these days!.
In our system does it matter if you pay your taxes correctly or that you pay your taxes. Looking at our deficits it is obvious we cannot pay them back. The pentagon in 2001 had 2.3 trillion in unaccounted for transactions. If the government was serious about it's accounting then they should have looked at themselves. In a fiat system the only true demand for the currency is that you have to pay money back in taxes. Whether it is accurate or not is a sideshow to keep us in line.
Exactly. And this is precisely what supply side aka Reaganomics is all about.
I'm okay with any system. Gold, fiat, supply side, etc. They all have pluses and minuses.
I think we've produced plenty but have failed as a country to have a fair distribution. More and more th majority are gettin the short end of the stick whether its tax laws, bailouts, stock options, executive compensation or deficit spending.
I would add, "Where exactly did all that TARP money go?" and exactly how good is the collateral for all the alphabet soup lending that the Fed has been doing, is it better than your average pawn shop?" Dirk van Dijk | 01.21.09 - 10:05 am | #
That would be the most important question IMO. Where did the money go & what did we get for it???
Seems like the subject of executive compensation is a hot button for the elected officials or our glorious nation. Why only executives ? I think all compensation should be tightly regulated.
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack. Anybody who freelances knows the score. Put another way: The tax code is so complicated, even the Treasury Secretary can't get it right. Sounds like an excellent tax code reform argument to me!
IRISH police believe a well-known Dublin businessman, with extensive property interests in Britain, has killed himself.
The body of property tycoon Patrick Rocca was found at his home at Porterstown, Castleknock, in west Dublin, earlier this week.
He was found with a single gunshot wound to the head and a firearm nearby has been taken away by forensic investigators, but Gardai have said they are satisfied nobody else was involved.
Mr Rocca, 41, had a fortune which was put at 500million ($771 million) in 2007 and he is thought to have completed 20 property deals in the UK during the last few years, worth about 300million in total, including 100 million for a distribution centre for retailer Argos in Bedford.
I don't want to be a monomaniac about this; I've aired my grievance and that's that.
The funny thing is, I thought that the basic premise of banking -- taking short-term deposits versus making long-term loans, with the gov't backing the whole scheme -- was already a pretty good swindle. This idea that there should be a tug-of-war between the taxpayers and the shareholders while the bondholders get a free pass seems to take kleptocracy to a whole new level.
Max writes:
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack. Anybody who freelances knows the score. Put another way: The tax code is so complicated, even the Treasury Secretary can't get it right. Sounds like an excellent tax code reform argument to me!
He never heard of an certified accountant to help him out?
Americans pay taxes? I missed that memo. When it was discovered that Joe the Plumber wasn't up to date, the McCain team didn't exactly distance itself, then others hired him for a non-plumbing job involving integrity and trust.
Big corporations amassed brazilians of dollars offshore via 'questionable' (at the least) tax strategies, and Bush gave them a tax holiday so they could repatriate those dollars.
Heck, under Bush, lowering taxes was considered the universal stimulus which would keep the economy moving. So wasn't Geithner just doing his bit according to the orthodoxy at the time?
Shape up, people. This occurs at virtually every confirmation hearing. It is discovered that the nominee has feet of clay or other unsaintly qualities, often unrelated to the task at hand. (Employed illegals? Let he among us who hasn't eaten Mexican or Chinese cast the first stone)
Nobody is perfect
Any sufficiently thorough vetting process will discover flaws
for any given flaw, there exists a vocal minority which will consider it a deal breaker
you govern with the people you've got, not the people you wish you had
I'll leave it to you to fight amongst yourselves about whether this issue is a deal breaker. But know that if it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and that the perfect is the enemy of the good.
"That's excessive by any measure. Real returns should come from work, not paper via the decree of a banker.
Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 10:59 am | #"
There has and will be excesses if measured in a negative. At some point we have to pay the bill. He knew and his way would work. I don't think history will reflect on todays problem and cures as Rational. The eighties where my golden years of profit.
Nemo writes:
Man, I wish he had blamed TurboTax. That would have been awesome.
Nemo | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 11:01 am | #
Man, that's funny. So why is it European financiers are killing themselves and no Americans? Justice would at least be that Madoff not wear a bullet-proof vest.
What I do like about Geithner is it is easy to read his facial expressions. Not hard to tell when he is lying and avoiding questions.
Ministry of Truth
These lazy senators, just reading verbatim questions prepared by aides and understudies. They already have their "behind closed doors" decision and vote determined. Give a hotfoot or two, and then shoe in the nominee.
Ever'body gonna be laffin' 'bout Turbotax later though.
Trade off between Carrera turbo monthly payment and the extra tax on the margins? What would you choose?
Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
best wishes
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:20 am | #
These confirmation hearings are about as meaningful as the ridiculous pageantry surrounding the inauguration, meaning nothing relevant and noteworthy will come out of it, and as someone mentioned above, he's already been rubber stamped.
I don't need to hear the posturing questions from Congress and the dodgy answers from Geithner to know how we got here, and neither do you. We know why, so such questioning is really just a waste of time and an unnecessary formality to make the Plebes think there is some kind of Due Dilligence in place to protect their interests.
- Nobody is perfect - Any sufficiently thorough vetting process will discover flaws - for any given flaw, there exists a vocal minority which will consider it a deal breaker - you govern with the people you've got, not the people you wish you had
I'll leave it to you to fight amongst yourselves about whether this issue is a deal breaker. But know that if it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Ralph Cramdown | 01.21.09 - 11:03 am | #
It isn't a 'deal breaker' per se but it sure requires a full 'mea culpa' and NO MORE SPIN. Maybe some 'community service' as part of restitution. Seeing him wear the orange vest along a highway with a big sack would help. Yes you can...
Well you can ask him those questions, but I would think that several of them involve decisions that were not his to make. After all he was not in charge of the Treasury and was not in any official position of the Bush administration. As President of the NY Fed his position was not a Bush political position.
I agree with your sentiment. But to put the mp light on this, I also agree that it's a show, highly irrelevant, despite whatever belief people want to have in this simulation of democracy. The structural deficiencies within the system are such that two terms will not be long-enough to clean this up. My guess is political capital is already draining from the system. It gets much much worse from here.
IRISH police believe a well-known Dublin businessman, with extensive property interests in Britain, has killed himself.
Not a billionaire, so doesn't count as a billionaire suicide. There was a Rothschild the other day, though, and the details on cause of death haven't been forthcoming.
the tax issue...zip
the part of being the ny fed under this debacle and not taking a more active approach years earlier to attack this bubble is troubling...
how much does he really know if it was right under his nose and he didn't see it
Max writes:
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack.
What a load of $hit. Calculating where to put the income from a royalty trust is complicated. But Form 1040 SE requires some simple arithmetic. It didn't need to read the tax code, just a page of instructions.
He understood it enough to ask for, and keep, the reimbursement.
There will be no flow of credit until household balance sheets are repaired. And that won't be soon in the face of stagnant wages and falling asset values.
Throwing more money at banks only solves half of the problem.
We've earned a massive deflation. We'll either deflate, inflate or stagnate. Prosperity has left the building.
"The status of George Bush is not that different from Augusto Pinochet. They've both been accused of running a torture program. And outside this country, there's not this ambiguity about what to do with a war crime. ... Most people abroad are going to view you not as former President George Bush, they're going to view you as a current war criminal."
"And they're going to view us as an outlaw regime for not arresting him on our own soil," Maddow remarked.
"I think so, unfortunately," Turley agreed. "A lot's at stake."
We must (without breaking the whole system) end run the banking system and lend direct to auto buyers, home buyers, students, etc.
We must devalue currency, provide Potemkin stimulus package, recap banks, issue boatloads more debt while actively suppressing yields, will selectively default overtly or by inflation. It may take decades but we will get through this. Maybe with system intact albeit reformed and re-regulated OR, as is more likely, with a quiet institutional revolution-a new currency-a new reserve currency-a nationalized banking sector.
Oh, and the tax issue, stick it, YOU need me. "You can't handle the truth"
sfjack writes:
What is it about republicans that they'll stand in the way of progress that benefits all people? Their modus operendi is to debate, obfuscate and delay.
Republicans: Why the hate for the average citizens? Especially considering you're all average citizens?
sfjack | 01.21.09 - 10:35 am | #
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
I should feel he nuts. .......... the balls of discipline not seen these days!. Economist Moe Howard 3SU | 01.21.09 - 10:54 am | # Downright obscene;-)LOL
What did he do, other than express an opinion? Why is free speech anathema to Liberals?
xxxxx | 01.21.09 - 11:09 am | #
Why must underaged dunces be so uneducated?
Laffer was advisor to the economically challenged Reagan administration and his "Laffer Curve" and "theory" was the basis of their economic plan that has adhered to for 27 years.
I'm amused how so many don't understand this basic connection.
All this talk about politics misses the point. The #1 task of all politicians is this: get re-elected.
Everything else is secondary to this first rule. If by accident, enacting or supporting the best policy happens to be the least-resistant path to re-election then it will be taken.
Otherwise, it's a total crapshoot of lobby money, provincialism, superstition, and malleable principles.
There will be no flow of credit until household balance sheets are repaired. And that won't be soon in the face of stagnant wages and falling asset values. Throwing more money at banks only solves half of the problem.
We've earned a massive deflation. We'll either deflate, inflate or stagnate. Prosperity has left the building. Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 11:10 am | #
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
No. Throwing good money after bad is silly.
I'm for letting the free market work. Let people default and let banks fail. In the alternative, loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender.
Laffer was advisor to the economically challenged Reagan administration and his "Laffer Curve" and "theory" was the basis of their economic plan that has adhered to for 27 years. sfjack | 01.21.09 - 11:14 am | #
I still haven't seen a crime mentioned, or anything that would amount to treason. And BTW, I'm in my 50s. I actually remember the debate over the Laffer Curve, and voodoo economics, and I even saw RR speak in '81.
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
And would you be doing them a favor if you did? There are a couple I know in money trouble. But in both cases, giving them money would be sending it down a rat hole.
Frankly, the best recourse is for them to default and help them when they can get in a sustainable situation.
"loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender."
If it was your money as a lender would you write down a principle? I can see a interest rate change, which will probably not change a default as rates where and are very low.
....if you allow the opinion; "the tax avoidance thing is nothing to preclude him from serving", then you also by inference have no problem with his being deceitful and opaque about national financial matters.
Character has no bearing in this "new Change"? Only if it's a "careless avoidable mistake"?
Thieves are generally thieves in more than one manner......
In the alternative, loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender.
The silent third party at any such negotiation is always the state: Absent private agreement, what will the law enforce regarding bankruptcy/restructuring. Unless you believe there should be no insolvency law, and all current assets and future earnings of debtors are subject to private-law forfeiture to creditors, you really have to specify what kind of bankruptcy laws you believe in.
The housekeeper's papers expiring after she had been with them a while and just before her employment ended seems like a simple oversight. I doubt that I or anyone else I know would have thought about it.
Similarly, with the taxes, it seems more likely to be carelessness than avarice. This wasn't exactly his area of concern at the time. I imagine that he spent no more time doing his own taxes than cleaning his own house.
That being said, the next Treasury Secretary will probably have a lot of responsibility on the revenue side with so much red ink flowing. Obama seems very interested in civic responsibilities (like paying taxes). I imagine that we will hear some comments to that effect when the subject of deficits comes up.
I agree dryfly with pre-packaging these bks, but it must be said that doing so relieves us of third-world status, by giving us 2nd world status. This is what we are fighting for.
Economist Moe Howard 3SU writes: If it was your money as a lender would you write down a principle?
Only if you want to stay in business. What do you want, partial default or full default? It was your faulty due diligence that made the loan.
Imaginary payments you never receive are only better than real payments you do receive if you're an american banker and the FASB and regulators will waive the laws of reality for you. Cashflow is better than pride.
Gareth G writes: It's amusing that so many Republicans are so suddenly concerned about paying taxes. Gareth G | 01.21.09 - 11:17 am | #
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy? Bill in Los Angeles | 01.21.09 - 11:19 am | #
WTF are y'all talking about? If Obama's stated tax plan (from the campaigh) ever makes it through, Repubs and Limosine Liberals will be the only folks paying taxes inthis country. Furthermore, Repubs have been critics of the tax code for years, many advocating a flat tax where "everyone" pays their fair share. Try getting info from a source "other" than the DailyKOS. Sheesh!
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy?
Bill in Los Angeles
It's as bad as sanctimonious Democrats speaking of responsibility, then saying they deserve a bye on tax cheating because the Republicans did it first...
I first voted for Carter and in 15+ elections have never voted for any Republican. But this indifference to to to the lack of responsibility this cheat has taken really makes my stomach turn.
Obama should have withdrawn the nomination as soon as this became known.
I've a question. Concerning the bondholders of, say, the ilk of Citi and BAC, what percentage of outstanding bonds are held by international institutions (if that's even a question that can be answered)?
"It isn't a 'deal breaker' per se but it sure requires a full 'mea culpa'"
To me it is a deal-breaker because this isn't about Tim Geithner only, but about everybody else who will come along over time. If he draws a pass for only paying taxes when he has a chance to move his career up, then everybody else does, too. I don't want that.
I want the guy who has seen all of this financial going down AND instead of quietly sitting back and being a paid accomplice....had the moral and testicular fortitude to shout from the roof tops that the barn is burning.
Geithner and his ilk (congresscritters) view $42,000 as an overlooked error due to the "paltry" sum; chump change. The message to the people who earn this or less as chumps don't count either. Geithner's refusal to stepdown and congress's refusal to withdraw his nomination is nothing more than reaffirmation of continuation of the congames. In the immortal words of Thomas Paine, "I disbelieve them all."
When the govt gives money to a bank like BofA, does it reaaly print bills to that amount? Or is it just a an adjustment to the books? In the case of latter it will save us stupid taxpayers the cost of printing?
I see he is still sticking to the bald-faced lie about carelessly forgetting to pay those taxes. Seriously, does anyone other than the most wild-eyed Obama acolyte buy this line?
....if you allow the opinion; "the tax avoidance thing is nothing to preclude him from serving", then you also by inference have no problem with his being deceitful and opaque about national financial matters.
I may be in the minority here, but I believe that public guile is part of the job description of a central banker. He should always work privately toward the goals in the charter, and his public statements should always be the servant of orderly markets. If he can't be believed when he claims to be hewing to a strong-dollar policy (even as he's privately inflating our way out of our problems), he's no damn good.
Frankly, I see the lack of a good poker face as a bigger disqualifier than the tax issue. And if he did intentionally evade taxes, I'd prefer -- for this job -- someone who'd bluff his way through it, rather than emit a big mea culpa. Short-stack central banking is closer to poker than many people realize.
I knew TG when we both went to JHU SAIS back in the 80's. He seemed like a good guy, although we wasn't necessarily the best at international economics(that may explain why he was getting daily tutoring sessions on macroeconomics at the NY Fed). My biggest concern is that he appeared to have been anointed by the TPTB to hold high office in the future. His dad was very high in the Ford Foundation and has relatives who were very high in the Justice Dept in the Nixon Administration. TG is the latest in a long line of elite civil servants. Re: tax evasion, there is really no excuse for him having failed to pay his self-employment tax, having been "grossed-up" by the IMF and having signed a paper advising him of his responsibility to pay the SE tax. I just can't figure out why he would not pay; he was in the Treasury Dept under Clinton (when Roubini and Setser worked for him) and clearly had aspirations for higher office.
Damn...this whole tax thing is a smoke screen, but I f'd my taxes up in 2004, and the IRS gratiously, without warning snagged ~$8,850 from my account in June.
Wish I could just claim an oversight myself.
Oh well...the Privaleges of running the FRBNY and now Treasury.
I'm taking this from a commenter at The Big Picture - There is only one party. The party of the Incumbents. If you think the Democrats care any more about you than the Republicans then you haven't been paying attention.
"Only if you want to stay in business. What do you want, partial default or full default? It was your faulty due diligence that made the loan."
If you where smart, first you would not have lend the money. That said now if you allow the mortgage holder to be rewarded in reducing the principle you enable bad behavior. My world neither would ever happen. So honestly keeping failed mortgage owners is as bad as keeping Banksters in business. I have lost money on principle and have hell for some who played games with me. Business has it's risk and you should except the results as a lesson.
Black Star Ranch writes: Character has no bearing in this "new Change"? Only if it's a "careless avoidable mistake"?
Thieves are generally thieves in more than one manner......
Oh irony. What popular attitudes might have contributed to this exceptionalistic approach to the rule of law, I wonder.
Could it have been byes given to authorities figures who flagrantly abused their power, as long as they acted as a proxy for your anxieties. Or provided cheap credit. Or helped your party's political situation.
Oh never. We just fell out off a pumpkin cart one morning and here we are.
He's a keeper, with his face in the news, the markets are green i.e. building confidence back into the financia system! Th small bounce in the market is not worse than what happened yesterday!
He did not catch the "error", the IRS did when it audited him for two tax years. Of course, Geithner knew the IRS didn't catch everything else for the years it did not audit, so he didn't pay those "errors" until he knew someone was going to be looking at them in the confirmation process.
And calling those errors is ludicrous. All the evidence shows he knew he was liable for the tax and chose not to pay it when filing.
The nagging question is why Obama is installing Clintonites? Did I miss a news flash of Obama conceding the presidency to Hilary and Rahm? It will be more of the same; Night of the Living Dead, as they pump up the insolvent banksters and decimate the people's present and future incomes.
"Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man cant ride you unless your back is bent."
Martin Luther King, Jr
Misean, claiming an oversight doesn't get him out of paying the bill. That stinks for you though. I guess that's the downside of having your refunds directly deposited to your account. The penalties and interest really bite. They can add up to more than the amount of unpaid tax. If you have anything other than the simplest return, a professional preparer is a good idea.
BSR, I think Mandarin is saying that we've tolerated a lot of BS from public servants before, when it suited us. So why are we getting so peckinsniff now?
Interesting, this divide between elected and appointed officials...izit that we don't trust democracy for key positions like Fed Head, CIA Chief, Defence...?
Ok, a little known fact that unto Mother Terresa a child was born...no relevant experience with US Finance, but bloody charismatic, this little Henri...who was short-listed for this job...just sayin.
Ahhhh....Well, I never tolerated as much - but then I dealt with it by dropping out decades ago - forced desert exile - gardens and cows don't lie, cheat & steal.
The whole thing from the Nam on continues to sicken me.
but I believe that public guile is part of the job description of a central banker.
A lying banker can be useful to the public, but ONLY when combined with a sterling sense of public service and selflessness. In somebody who gives away hundreds of billions of taxpayer money with little benefit, covers up the details of what he's done, and cheats on his taxes, lying to the public is NOT a virtue.
Hmmmm...I beg to differ...And plants are real rat bastards in poker...with their no expression...the "Oh, that bee...oh it didn't look at your cards before polinatiing me" spiel....GRRR!
Senator Jim Bunning called it. Geithner has not been honest or effective in the past. Tax issue aside, he was and will be part of the problem. Next, Please.
WTF are y'all talking about? If Obama's stated tax plan (from the campaigh) ever makes it through, Repubs and Limosine Liberals will be the only folks paying taxes inthis country. Furthermore, Repubs have been critics of the tax code for years, many advocating a flat tax where "everyone" pays their fair share. Try getting info from a source "other" than the DailyKOS. Sheesh!
Really?? I must have missed the time the Republican Congress and President Bush signed the flat tax into law. What year was that again? Oh wait, they didn't introduce a flat tax because it had zero chance of being passed. Talk about a gift to the rich. The flat tax was more trickle down and voodoo economics. Try to stay in reality, xxxxx.
Really?? I must have missed the time the Republican Congress and President Bush signed the flat tax into law. What year was that again? Oh wait, they didn't introduce a flat tax because it had zero chance of being passed. Talk about a gift to the rich. The flat tax was more trickle down and voodoo economics. Try to stay in reality, xxxxx. DD49 | 01.21.09 - 11:56 am | #
No one ever got it to pass, but RR did get a simplified tax to pass, but as soon as he was gone, we drifted back to the old ways. Besides, the original question was about why Repubs are suddenly all torqued up about people paying their taxes.
Critiques of this hearing strike me as critiques of the ballroom dancing on the Titanic. Put me into the column who have lost any faith the government and I dont care which side of the tapeworm is in control. While I no longer trust the integrity of the law my faith in the law of gravity gets confirmed every day.
"Rostenkowski was defeated by Republican attorney Michael Patrick Flanagan by a margin of eight points. Flanagan would be defeated two years later by Rod Blagojevich."
"Rostenkowski receives a federal pension of between US$ 97,000 and US$ 125,000 per year."
Black Star Ranch writes: Ahhhh....Well, I never tolerated as much - but then I dealt with it by dropping out decades ago - forced desert exile - gardens and cows don't lie, cheat & steal.
And I completely agree with you, down to being in exile myself.
The whole thing from the Nam on continues to sicken me.
It's true.
And so when it seems like I bust on Joe Beatcop, maybe you could consider I have something beyond simple prejudice at work. I don't really have any sympathy for either party.
TIMMAY!!!
ya but,.... rubber stamp it will be
TIMMAY!!!
Nemo | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:00 am | #
How does he do that!?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Too much debt can be fixed by:
1) Destroying the value of the currency by printing more money, lending money to deadbeat bankers and investors, and encouraging fraud and rampant speculation with more debt.
2) Not paying your taxes.
3) Both of the above!
So wait, if I "forget" to pay taxes on tens of thousands in income, all I will have to face are tough questions?
Sign me up!
ummmm I know your forgot to do your taxes Mr. G but how did you not see what was happening under your ny fed umbrella? You are a bigger part of this fraud and wall street madness than anyone will ever know
Re TARP:
"We're considering upgrading kitchens in federal buildings across the country with granite counter tops. After that we'll move on to curb appeal while working on our credit rating so we can flip this into a much larger loan for our next project. You know deficits never go down. It's not like they're making more money... err... um... what's the next question?"
Does anyone else note the irony in using "tranches" to describe pieces of the TARP when the word was overwhelmingly associated with the securitization that got us into this mess?
More important questions than "why didnt you check your housekeepers papers more closely and follow up after they expired?" or why didnt you pay the taxes that were beyond the statute of limitations immediately once it became clear to you had underpaid. I would add, "Where exactly did all that TARP money go?" and exactly how good is the collateral for all the alphabet soup lending that the Fed has been doing, is it better than your average pawn shop?"
This morning's Bailout links have been posted...20 bailout stories so far...i had a hot pic of Batgirl in tall blck boots and a super skimpy bikini and cape, but i buckled after 15 minutes and replaced the pic...sorry about that..
i probaly should have left the batgirl pic up...
as a general question, would that offend anyone here if my posted story image was a very hot BatGirl...or do i need to keep things more in line with publication standards...
i'll post a link to the BatGirl pic here for your perusal...
you decide
The page cannot be found BatGirl3.jpg
tell me what you think...it's def worth pasting the address to see this photo..
would a scaled down pic of the above make my site NSFW (not safe for work)?
or would most of you still be able to view the site without issues..?..
"Geithner to Committee : My Bad"
Questions?
I'd vote 'no' on principle.
The 'kinder and gentler world' got too kind and too gentle in corrupt ways for a selected few and a lot harder and colder for the rest of us. It is time for some beheadings.
Like the Dinosaurs at t-minus 30 seconds.
I prefer to say no to spam.
If you to advertise talk to CR about a paid ad.
http://www.txroadrunners.com/images/pics/Funny6/BatGirl3.jpg
trying agin for link to batgirl image
get this douchebag's batgirl stuff outta here.
lay off the bogus tax non-sense. taxes are for dopes. stick with the real issues on his confirmation.
bogus cds/cdo structures
insolvent banks
corporate board responsibility
@ darth paulson
i'm not spamming darth...
i hang out here all day and have for 28 months...jsut providing bailout links...and my site has no advertising..not trying to steal traffic or make any money...
just trying to stop these goddamned bailouts...
sorry it it offends you...
Live Stream of Timmy and the Taxman
Geithner do you know about the Self Employment Tax ?
Jackass !
I find it sad that CR doesn't even see the tax cheating as worth mentioning. I, for one, am very disappointed.
Volcker just walked in ... he just towers over everyone else.
It is about to start.
Does anyone else note the irony in using "tranches" to describe pieces of the TARP when the word was overwhelmingly associated with the securitization that got us into this mess?
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 01.21.09 - 10:05 am | #
It's just an attempt to get away from the now inoperative first half/second half description seeing as third and fourth "halves" seem baked in.
You forgot one question.
How do you propose congress and the bankers continue to benifit from this situation and stick it to the taxpayers?
"FDR once said that confidence relies on honesty ... without them it cannot live -- the nominee before us ..."
What the heck just happened to the Yen?
"Why was Lehman Brothers allowed to collapse in September? And why was American International Group saved by the government only 48 hours later?"
"Why didnt the Treasury and the Federal Reserve act more aggressively to stabilize the financial system after the downfall of Bear Stearns last spring?"
POW!!! BAM!!!
Tune in tomorrow same bat-time, same bat-channel!
The entire situation is BATSHIT!
In a financial crisis many of you are no doubt googling questions things like, "What will those bastards in Washington do next?"--or "Who the hell is supposed to pay for all this?" Not to get all political this week but what do you all think the new political leaders are googling now (that they're in power)?
As always, good answers are rewarded with nods of agreement from legions of readers.
Googling: Financial Leaders | Systemically Important
Two guesses at what Ben Bernanke is googling now are written out at the link above.
Bob_in_MA, that was an excerpt from the deal book.
I'm sure he will be asked about taxes and his housekeeper.
best wishes.
innocent mistakes --
scum
Rueters says:
"Timothy Geithner, though tarnished by disclosures of his failure to pay taxes, is likely too uniquely qualified..."
BS, I say. Being an insider is not a unique qualification. The reality is that he is seen as a hope for the 'club' to keep one of their own in control of the spigot. They truly believe that the world revolves around them and that others should pay any price to preserve their 'specialness'.
Why doesn't the IMF withhold their end of the payroll tax anyhow?
Odd that you could be a W-2 employee, with your end of the taxes withheld from every check while your employer withholds none. I can see how confusion could occur.
This would be a suitable explanation for me, unless the tax scofflaw in question was running for SecTreas or head of IRS, etc, etc.
Rueters says:
"Timothy Geithner, though tarnished by disclosures of his failure to pay taxes, is likely too uniquely qualified..."
I agree this is bullshit because these so called 'experts' are winging it.
I don't know Geithner, but I know people that know him - and they all think he is a very good person, very smart, easy to work with, very effective, etc.
Roubini and Setser both worked for him, and they both think he will be a great Treasury Secretary. It's disappointing that he didn't pay his taxes - that seems dumb to me, but I think he is a good guy.
best to all.
CR's "tough question" list misses the point.
For get the actual bailouts, how did we allow the system to become so unbalanced that it needed bailouts.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Geithner is incompetent. He should be fired an never allowed to managed credit or banks again.
I second Nemo's question about the yen... what's going on there? Yen seems to be the only major currency moving.
Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
best wishes
Geithner is soft. I heard the fear in his voice during his congressional testimony after the illegal Bear Stearns rescue.
Geithner is a perfect puppet for money interests. Geithner is good for wall street, bad for mainstreet.
One more thing, he is tax cheat and a scoff law.
"Why should we bail out people who came to Congress to demand the removal of leverage limits, got what they asked for, then blew themselves up with the very leverage they demanded to be able to use."
Tax scofflaw now commands the economy.
CR,
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
Yen seems to be the only major currency moving.
Yup
INO Foreign Exchange - Swiss Franc/Japanese Yen (FOREX:CHFJPY) Price Chart and Quote
INO Foreign Exchange - British Pound/Japanese Yen (FOREX:GBPJPY) Price Chart and Quote
"Why doesn't the IMF withhold their end of the payroll tax anyhow? "
The IMF "grosses up" the pay of americans to make up for the Self Employment Tax. In addition, all american employees are required to read and sign a yearly disclosure form that they understand this.
Geithner has no excuse.
I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
It was ignored/missed because powerful minority interests were making piles of money.
A total inside job. Bernanke and Geithner are either incompetent or worse - complicit in the biggest financial swindle in history.
Puppets or criminals - pick your poison.
"Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble."
Then Geithner should be in the witness chair, not the Secretary chair.
Again, as this story develops, it is amazing how are view of events can change. For most last four months the convential wisdom has been that letting Lehman Brothers fail was a mistake. However, Bank of America's problems are pretty much the result of Merrill Lynch's "bad" assets, that Merrill, like Lehman was pretty much an insolvent institution, and now that its is part of BoA, BoA is pretty much insolvent. Similarly, AIG rescue has, according to the CBO, resulted in a transfer of 56 billion dollars of losses from its shareholders, bondholders, and purchasers of it CDS instruments to the U.S. taxpayers. Which was the bigger mistake then: letting Lehman fail, or not letting Merrill and AIG fail? Or maybe the mistake was doing both? Lehman was not so much a cause, but a symptom, a symptom that finally told the patient that it was not the usual muscle aches or heart burn that had afflicted her over the years, but a deep and dangerous cancer that was eating at her vitals.
The neighbors always thought that the young man next door was a kind and generous individual. Current and former colleagues said he was a good person always willing to lend a helping hand and honest to a fault.
So everyone was in shock when they learned that such a decent person could have committed such an act - some actually denied that he could have been involved and to this day insist that it all was just an innocent mistake.
Bob_in_MA, I've always been very careful on my taxes - and I think he should be quizzed hard on this issue. BUT ...
If he is going to be confirmed (I think he will), I'd hate to see the entire hearing to be about his taxes, and NOT about the key issues facing the country. That would make the hearing a complete joke and a waste of time.
Yes, it upsets me.
best wishes.
Bob_in_MA writes:
CR,
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 10:23 am | #
Quite yer friggin' whining. Where were you when the Bush Crime Syndicate robbed us blind?
Get a life.
CR: Roubini and Setser both worked for him, and they both think he will be a great Treasury Secretary.
I guess I didn't realize they had the power to absolve crimes.
He signed multiple requests to be reimbursed for half the tax payment, took the money, and then says he didn't know he owed the money. It's patently absurd.
Chuck Scummer says Tim is a great guy - I'm convinced - now back to Eri
Yen. Hedge fund blew up? They could have been short or long. Duh.
Oil, spx, europe, commodities?
CR,
I know that many speak well of him. I'm not sanguine about the job the NY Fed did under his leadership, though I do note he at least was one of the earlier voices in that group seeing the bubbles. But the tax issue truly bothers me. In simple terms, one of the major flaws we have seen in the group that just vacated office was a tendency to ignore laws and rules that were inconvenient to them regardless of the detriment to others. Geithner's knowing failure to pay what he owed makes me wonder if he'd be more of the same. In his position, and particularly in the current situation, this perception would work against him even if he were an outstanding, honorable and honest performer of the duties.
Add to this the questions you've frequently seen on this list in regard to him - the questions of "if he can do it, why shouldn't we" in regard to payment of taxes - and consider that this question will run through the minds of much of the general public. This creates yet another difficulty that is unnecessary.
Geithner is supremely skilled and competent, but he is not the only one who meets that level of qualification. I would hope that at least one of the other individuals who are also of such quality would not have this particular burden. I am hoping that the committee recommends against the selection of Mr. Geithner for this cabinet position.
he was in on this big time!
he let it all happen under his watch right there in the middle of the storm.. he is wall street and banker cell bitch...why doesn't everyone see that he was a huge part of this debacle..
I dont get it
ken lay was just as guilty
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 10:23 am |
As a freelance consultant I also self-employment tax in thick and thin times.
Geithner has absolutely no excuse no matter how hard he spins.
If this clown gets confirmed it will deflate Obama sentiment.
What the heck just happened to the Yen?
Not that any of us know for sure, but probably another carry trade hedge fund implosion. Margin call!
Calculated Risk writes:
I don't know Geithner, but I know people that know him
CR is Kevin Bacon!
Geithner is incompetent and dishonest. What else is their to discuss.
Graveyards are full of indispensable people - Charles De Gaulle
We don't expect our police or military or public officals to behave according to the law or to keep their word. Why should anybody be ashamed when they operate in the same manner as the state?
People think this is trivial but it is one of the underlying causes of the crisis. Law is a sacred concept. It's been made into the rulebook for Calvinball. Nothing to prevent it from happening... other than your desire to maintain a functioning complex society.
CR makes a good point on the taxes - it's far too easy to get distracted by the black/white tax issue of not bothering with the far more vexing and substantial questions about "What just happened and why?"
I just hope that there are some substantial questions instead of the usual congressional bloviating that seems to be par for the course.
CRjunky writes:
CR is Kevin Bacon!
Or maybe Geithner is.
Gonn'a get a little like Jas here, but fellow US posters, if our President wanted a gold desk this morning with stripper's hanging from the ceiling, that's what he would get.
The Bankster's with the help of The Treasury Secretary and Federal Reserve have brought us here today, because of money, power and privledge.
Most of us have no money, power or privledge and our future generation's labor is being committed to keep this Hiarchy in power.
We need to see some perk walks, some jail time and accountability of what we have witnesed for the past year of the rape of our Country.
The Onion quoted at hearing! This County is in deep trouble with these onions...
scummer just said "Treasury under Tim's hand in the till umm I mean hand on the tiller"
Geithner didn't pay his taxes, and he wants the job as head of the IRS. This IS an important issue (CR).
And what exactly makes him so qualified? That he knows how to dish out money? No one in power realized the consequences of their decisions, but now he is qualified to fix it? Count me in with others here e.g. Angry Saver and the like.
Calculated Risk writes:
Bob_in_MA, I've always been very careful on my taxes - and I think he should be quizzed hard on this issue. BUT ...
If he is going to be confirmed (I think he will), I'd hate to see the entire hearing to be about his taxes, and NOT about the key issues facing the country. That would make the hearing a complete joke and a waste of time.
Yes, it upsets me.
best wishes.
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:27 am |
Not to be rude, but don't you get it? The over-riding issue here is integrity and trust, and the fact that there is absolutely none. We are not going to solve the "bigger" issue until we solve some of the base issues!
Regarding yen:
British Pound/Yen trade is getting liquidated.
Pay no attention to the not paying taxes behind the screen.
oes anyone else note the irony in using "tranches" to describe pieces of the TARP
Actually, "warning" is the word that came to mind.
.
CR,
I respect your opinion, but the refrain I hear from folks generally here in NYC is a variation on "everything's a fraud now". And a hundred bad jokes about skipping taxes and getting a Treasury sec. job.
Restoring some trust that the laws are equally applied, and that insiders are not exempt from the rules, would do something to restore trust in government.
The housekeeper deal was enough to derail Wood, Chavez and Zooey...but the tax evasion, from a guy who would be in charge of the IRS, is just mind-numbing.
I think it's a bad choice.
Q: Mr. Geithner, are you sure all the gold is still in the basement?
Mr. Volker - please turn on your microphone
summary of Mr. V's comments
Tim is too big to fail
What is it about republicans that they'll stand in the way of progress that benefits all people? Their modus operendi is to debate, obfuscate and delay.
Republicans: Why the hate for the average citizens? Especially considering you're all average citizens?
Volcker - "Serious recession with no end clearly in sight"
He doesn't obviously watch CNBC or he would know about the 2nd half recovery.
Not to be rude, but don't you get it?
Smartass | 01.21.09 - 10:34 am | #
He does. You don't.
I guess nobody explained mustard seeds to Volker...
Volcker now speaking ... Volcker was a great Fed Chairman, and he warned about these problems pretty early. I'm glad he is part of the team.
best to all.
Give Geithner credit, whenever he becomes topic du jour--the markets get very bullish. Pushed off the 7 handle today while bonds, insurance, and banks do well. Guess you know his constituency anyway. "Some might call you elite (another word for explotative plunderers), I call you my base"
I just hope Volker isn't there as window dressing to placate a certain segment. Just because there's money involved doesn't mean identity politics isn't.
I remember Geithner from 25 years ago and he was a good guy then and a good guy now (paraphrase)
"he is a model that should inspire others"
the mother of all financial crisis..
volker
Bill in Los Angeles writes:
Bob_in_MA writes:
CR,
Given your endorsement of the Obama team, and the absence of any comment since on the tax matter, leads one to the conclusion you see it as unimportant.
How can anyone not be outraged by this? Is it just tax cheating is so prevalent among their friends and family, they find it unsurprising?
If this cheat is confirmed Obama will have made a mockery of his call to responsibility.
I paid the damn self-employment tax when I made as little as $15,000 in a year. It really sucked, but I paid. No one gave me the money to pay it. And I managed the filing on my own, just like ten million other Americans.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 10:23 am | #
Quite yer friggin' whining. Where were you when the Bush Crime Syndicate robbed us blind?
Get a life.
Bill in Los Angeles | 01.21.09 - 10:28 am
That's intelligent Bill. Since we had bad decisions in the past, that justifies bad decisions for the future. Let go of the past Bill.
Not to be rude, but don't you get it? The over-riding issue here is integrity and trust, and the fact that there is absolutely none. We are not going to solve the "bigger" issue until we solve some of the base issues!
Smartass | 01.21.09 - 10:34 am | #
BINGO !
Trust in the US banking system in all but dead.
If Geithner gets confirmed it's dead for sure !
Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
best wishes
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:20 am | #
I agree to make it about taxes then pass him afterward never gets to the meat of the matter.
The banks own Tim as much as they own the Senators confirming him. He's going to be installed.
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole reason they floated the tax delinquency issue is to keep the official record talk away from the important questions, and to let the proles vent a little about something they understand.
"Dang, he didn't pay his taxes! I pay my taxes!"
"Volcker now speaking ... Volcker was a great Fed Chairman, and he warned about these problems pretty early. I'm glad he is part of the team.
best to all.
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:36 am | # "
What's he warning about now?
"but I think he is a good guy"
With all due respect, I would argue that we need someone who was (A) smart enough to have forseen this meltdown and (B) with enough cojones to have protested/tried to stop the actions that made it possible.
Geithner doesn't qualify under either of those criteria (leaving out the tax honesty issue).
market no likey "mother of all financial crisis"...
I enjoyed Volcker's comment "Mother of all financial crisis".
best to all.
Deficits don't matter, taxes don't matter. We'll collect on the back end by deficit spending, currency devaluation, and sovereign default.
Gotta let the man feel like he's a contributor though.
Volker - Obama likes him and you guys have a constitutional duty to appoint him.
He's got it all wrong - this isn't the "mother" of anything.
It's the thrice-inbred bastard child of every weak-willed politician, greedy banker, moronic citizen and all the other crises that came before this one.
This is simply the logical nadir.
Timmy has a lovely wife and his parents seem nice as well -- now he's talking about integrity
Mr. Sparkle writes:
...
It's the thrice-inbred bastard child of every weak-willed politician, greedy banker, moronic citizen and all the other crises that came before this one.
Damn, that's good.
Calculated Risk writes:
I enjoyed Volcker's comment "Mother of all financial crisis".
best to all.
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:39 am | #
More accurately, it is 27 years of a failed economic model called supply side hitting the wall.
Laffer is a criminal. He should be executed for high treason.
"How will he use the second tranche of $350 billion in federal bailout money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP?"
I would ask: Has anyone checked if its still available?
....the hypocrisy here. I might guess that 90% of the posters are are in fact posers. Most here have been untruthful in SOME regard to past tax filings. The system makes it so. When even the IRS can't agree on many specifics re: tax law, most citizens can't be expected to either.
In Geithner's case, he is held to a higher level AND, he got caught. His violation was pretty basic. His appointed position requires one who DOESN'T have IRS irregularities in his past, PURE AND SIMPLE. He should not be confirmed.
Volcker was a great Fed Chairman, and he warned about these problems pretty early
Great? Best of a bad lot is more apt.
Consider. Under Volcker's direction, owner's equivalent rent replaced actual house price inflation in the CPI. This idiocy (house inflation is wealth not inflation) was the primary underlying cause of the housing bubble.
Volcker also went way overboard on raising rates in the eighties. Paying people extra not to spend is just as silly as Bernanke's plan to steal from people to get them to spend.
Calculated Risk writes:
Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
Sorry CR, have to join the Greek chorus: We missed it because people in Congress, the banking industry and the Administration wanted it to happen to produce a "Bush Boom" for their political benefit after 9/11.
Elves didn't get us here. This was the ultimate white swan event. The word "whocoodanode" was actually coined for it.
There aren't going to be any serious questions about that.
MarketWatch is quoting Volcker as saying the rescue would cost "several trillion dollars". I missed that comment.
best to all.
USD/JPY 88.88
Lucky?
in other news....
Jan. 21 (Bloomberg) -- BlackRock Inc., the largest publicly traded U.S. asset manager, said fourth-quarter earnings fell 84 percent as the firm cut jobs and marked down the value of hedge-fund investments.
Our financial institutions are WELL CAPITALIZED.
I might guess that 90% of the posters are are in fact posers. Most here have been untruthful in SOME regard to past tax filings.
Nice.
Two quick comments:
1) no batgirl for me; imploding markets disaster pr0n keeps me busy enough...
2) been looking at banks' balance sheets and am starting to wonder why taxpayer funding is taking a junior position to bondholders. Jam all the bonds down into preferred equity status and the taxpayers can get a much better deal, or at least a much less bad deal. That step would also make the good bank/bad bank approach more workable.
The best Geithner and company have come up with so far is convertible bonds, which would dilute the common, but leaves the senior bonds intact.
Bush and Crew "lose" 9 billion in Iraq. Crickets. Bush and Paulson largely give out $350+ billion with almost no accountability (stealing?). Mostly crickets. Obama's guy didn't pay the proper amount of tax, totalling in the thousands. Apoplexy.
Unreal.
Change I can believe in!
Mebbe the treasury secretary should take his oath of office on a stack of T-bills or the $100 engraving plate. Afterall what would "so help me God" mean in a society with no real fear of diety. Only those intrinsic internal qualites commanded from on high would restrain the "animal spirits" which always lead to corruption and loss of gov't legitimacy. But money and IOUs, now there is something to bind one's oath upon.
Black Star Ranch - The fact that he made the system work for him entitles him to be appointed.
Nemo - Why lucky on USD/JPY?
USD/JPY 88.88
Only if you are chinese or of chinese descent.
You guys don't have your thinking caps on straight. There must've been 3-4 guys considered for Treasury. Geithner was probably selected because he is the "cleanest".
Also; I hired a company to provide housekeeping services and I suspect there could be some illegals working for them. If Americans were hard over on this we'd flock to companies that advertise all of their labor has paperwork that checks out and is legal. We aren't so there's no market for these types of companies. I would patronize such a company on principle, but aren't you suppose to assume that any company hiring work will check their own paperwork?
Am I supposed to ask for the papers of everyone who works for me? (Okay, I'm sure its the law but...)
LOLFed should be good today.
Nemo - Why lucky on USD/JPY?
\t Barley | \t \t \t \t01.21.09 - 10:45 am | #
Barley | 01.21.09 - 10:45 am | #
8 is a lucky number in China. Maybe that's it?
@Arghhhhh
If I can order off a Cantonese menu with a fair accent, can I haz YEN?
Volker: Bank rescue will cost several trillion dollars
Nemo - Why lucky on USD/JPY?
Barley | 01.21.09 - 10:45 am | #
The number 8 is lucky in china - Kinda like 13 is unlucky in the west.
Paraphrasing -
"Once this crisis is past we must return to living within our means?"
So since we have failed to live within our means for the last 25 years we'll do so of our own free will once this crisis is over. Come again?
J Marston,
It's a big swindle. A bailout of the wealthy minority on the backs of the majority.
The big issues don't get discussed - excessive debt, and poor distribution wealth.
agree w/ black star ranch about geithner. he willingly chose to break tax laws multiple times in multiple years. he only paid because he got caught, not because he discovered the error and wanted to do the right thing. end of story. no confirmation. if you or i did what he did, we would have paid massive penalties. tim's penalties were magically waived. and the pols wonder why voters have so little respect or trust in elected officials. i guarantee there are scores of people as qualified as tim to lead the treasury.
If I can order off a Cantonese menu with a fair accent, can I haz YEN?
Yeah you can but there'll be war over it, as always.
Yen just broke 88. Rebounding hard, but holy crap something is wrong in the forex markets today.
@Nemo - did you see this at Across the Curve:
Hiroshi Yoshikawa is head of a government group which measures the business cycle in Japan. He predicts a severe recession lasting three years.
Angry Saver writes:
J Marston,
It's a big swindle. A bailout of the wealthy minority on the backs of the majority.
The big issues don't get discussed - excessive debt, and poor distribution wealth.
Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 10:49 am | #
Exactly. And this is precisely what supply side aka Reaganomics is all about.
Nemo - been out of fx for a spell...elaborate...
Tim is in a circle of his own.
Political Power Elite's eat their own for the benifit of MSM, who inturn, force feed's it to the US Taxpayer.
Who did not see our Hiarchy dressed in lovely clothes, being hugged by those that had eat them for dinner, on TV the past year.
They are all actors being paid by our tax dollars.
sfjack, you graduated from 6th grade. Act like it.
"Volcker also went way overboard on raising rates in the eighties."
Did he? I lived through his rein and paid 10% (bargain at the time) home mortgage and a floating CRE loan in excess of18%. I should feel he nuts. I don't, he had the brains and the balls of discipline not seen these days!.
In our system does it matter if you pay your taxes correctly or that you pay your taxes. Looking at our deficits it is obvious we cannot pay them back. The pentagon in 2001 had 2.3 trillion in unaccounted for transactions. If the government was serious about it's accounting then they should have looked at themselves. In a fiat system the only true demand for the currency is that you have to pay money back in taxes. Whether it is accurate or not is a sideshow to keep us in line.
Exactly. And this is precisely what supply side aka Reaganomics is all about.
I'm okay with any system. Gold, fiat, supply side, etc. They all have pluses and minuses.
I think we've produced plenty but have failed as a country to have a fair distribution. More and more th majority are gettin the short end of the stick whether its tax laws, bailouts, stock options, executive compensation or deficit spending.
Oops.
http://markets.on.nytimes.com/cgi-bin/upload.dll/file.png?z0589100az7200ce742742420491a84e821b93d6b8
OT, but of interest to those following CRE from REIT Wrecks:
Warning: These REITs Still Pay Dividends, But Not In Cash
We have nothing to hope but fear itself.
This is rather irrelevant, whatever his credentials, and taxable oversights. irrelevant.
--bh
There was a man called Dave
Who kept a dead whore in a cave
He said "I admit
I am a bit of a shit
But think of the money I save".
I would add, "Where exactly did all that TARP money go?" and exactly how good is the collateral for all the alphabet soup lending that the Fed has been doing, is it better than your average pawn shop?"
Dirk van Dijk | 01.21.09 - 10:05 am | #
That would be the most important question IMO. Where did the money go & what did we get for it???
Seems like the subject of executive compensation is a hot button for the elected officials or our glorious nation. Why only executives ? I think all compensation should be tightly regulated.
Wage & Price Controls coming soon!
What I do like about Geithner is it is easy to read his facial expressions. Not hard to tell when he is lying and avoiding questions.
Volker: Bank rescue will cost several trillion dollars
REBear | 01.21.09 - 10:48 am | #
Posters here had this figured out two years ago.
Correction:
Bank rescues already cost several trillion dollars, in today's dollars.
Longterm, this cost us a least one generation, possibly two.
--bh
Economic multiplier:
"A $17 Trillion Alliance Can Save World Economies: William Pesek"
A $17 Trillion Alliance Can Save World Economies: William Pesek - Bloomberg.com
Did he? I lived through his rein and paid 10% (bargain at the time) home mortgage and a floating CRE loan in excess of18%
Volcker paid REAL returns on paper dollars in excess of 4%!
That's excessive by any measure. Real returns should come from work, not paper via the decree of a banker.
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack. Anybody who freelances knows the score. Put another way: The tax code is so complicated, even the Treasury Secretary can't get it right. Sounds like an excellent tax code reform argument to me!
Irish property tycoon commits suicide | The Australian
IRISH police believe a well-known Dublin businessman, with extensive property interests in Britain, has killed himself.
The body of property tycoon Patrick Rocca was found at his home at Porterstown, Castleknock, in west Dublin, earlier this week.
He was found with a single gunshot wound to the head and a firearm nearby has been taken away by forensic investigators, but Gardai have said they are satisfied nobody else was involved.
Mr Rocca, 41, had a fortune which was put at 500million ($771 million) in 2007 and he is thought to have completed 20 property deals in the UK during the last few years, worth about 300million in total, including 100 million for a distribution centre for retailer Argos in Bedford.
Barley --
I am just an observer, not a participant... But my understanding is that 88.90 is considered a "key level" on USD/JPY.
GBP/USD below $1.38 looks pretty scary to me, too. The UK is a Real Country.
Question to G: were you advised that if you didn't amend returns out of statute, that the IRS would likely never find the error?
Re: big swindle
I don't want to be a monomaniac about this; I've aired my grievance and that's that.
The funny thing is, I thought that the basic premise of banking -- taking short-term deposits versus making long-term loans, with the gov't backing the whole scheme -- was already a pretty good swindle. This idea that there should be a tug-of-war between the taxpayers and the shareholders while the bondholders get a free pass seems to take kleptocracy to a whole new level.
Man, I wish he had blamed TurboTax. That would have been awesome.
Uk to Iceland as World to UK, what goes around..
Turbo Tax that explains it!
"I used Turbotax"!
TURBO TAX, LOL!!!!
See, he did use Turbo Tax...a poster here the other day asked if that is what he was using...LOL
Max writes:
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack. Anybody who freelances knows the score. Put another way: The tax code is so complicated, even the Treasury Secretary can't get it right. Sounds like an excellent tax code reform argument to me!
He never heard of an certified accountant to help him out?
Wondering whether he paid the payroll taxes on his maid salary while the maid was employed illegally, or should I say, "improperly documented"?
Americans pay taxes? I missed that memo. When it was discovered that Joe the Plumber wasn't up to date, the McCain team didn't exactly distance itself, then others hired him for a non-plumbing job involving integrity and trust.
Big corporations amassed brazilians of dollars offshore via 'questionable' (at the least) tax strategies, and Bush gave them a tax holiday so they could repatriate those dollars.
Heck, under Bush, lowering taxes was considered the universal stimulus which would keep the economy moving. So wasn't Geithner just doing his bit according to the orthodoxy at the time?
Shape up, people. This occurs at virtually every confirmation hearing. It is discovered that the nominee has feet of clay or other unsaintly qualities, often unrelated to the task at hand. (Employed illegals? Let he among us who hasn't eaten Mexican or Chinese cast the first stone)
I'll leave it to you to fight amongst yourselves about whether this issue is a deal breaker. But know that if it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and that the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Real countries have real economies... The UK no longer qualifies.
They should give him a pass just based on the turbo tax answer.
"That's excessive by any measure. Real returns should come from work, not paper via the decree of a banker.
Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 10:59 am | #"
There has and will be excesses if measured in a negative. At some point we have to pay the bill. He knew and his way would work. I don't think history will reflect on todays problem and cures as Rational. The eighties where my golden years of profit.
Enjoy Mish (Audio)
' + title + ' - ' + basename(imgurl) + '(' + w + 'x' + h +')
Nemo writes:
Man, I wish he had blamed TurboTax. That would have been awesome.
Nemo | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 11:01 am | #
Man, that's funny. So why is it European financiers are killing themselves and no Americans? Justice would at least be that Madoff not wear a bullet-proof vest.
What happened to Geithner's last stock pump? This guy toast...even if appointed
$17 trillion is $2833.33
Please send my "stimulus" in gold and silver.
Thank you.
What I do like about Geithner is it is easy to read his facial expressions. Not hard to tell when he is lying and avoiding questions.
Ministry of Truth
You want that in a Treasury Secretary?
You really are the Ministry of Truth!
Update; $2833 per person. (assuming 6B people)
Can every country print money at will, like us? If they do then what happens to the inflation, trade balance etc? Will they remain unchanged?
The UK is now a net energy importer.
The ounce is the new pound.
And 75 is the new 65 when it comes to retirement.
These lazy senators, just reading verbatim questions prepared by aides and understudies. They already have their "behind closed doors" decision and vote determined. Give a hotfoot or two, and then shoe in the nominee.
Ever'body gonna be laffin' 'bout Turbotax later though.
Trade off between Carrera turbo monthly payment and the extra tax on the margins? What would you choose?
Angry Saver, I'd like to see some questions / answers on how we got here - and why so many people missed the housing and credit bubble.
best wishes
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 01.21.09 - 10:20 am | #
These confirmation hearings are about as meaningful as the ridiculous pageantry surrounding the inauguration, meaning nothing relevant and noteworthy will come out of it, and as someone mentioned above, he's already been rubber stamped.
I don't need to hear the posturing questions from Congress and the dodgy answers from Geithner to know how we got here, and neither do you. We know why, so such questioning is really just a waste of time and an unnecessary formality to make the Plebes think there is some kind of Due Dilligence in place to protect their interests.
- Nobody is perfect
- Any sufficiently thorough vetting process will discover flaws
- for any given flaw, there exists a vocal minority which will consider it a deal breaker
- you govern with the people you've got, not the people you wish you had
I'll leave it to you to fight amongst yourselves about whether this issue is a deal breaker. But know that if it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and that the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Ralph Cramdown | 01.21.09 - 11:03 am | #
It isn't a 'deal breaker' per se but it sure requires a full 'mea culpa' and NO MORE SPIN. Maybe some 'community service' as part of restitution. Seeing him wear the orange vest along a highway with a big sack would help. Yes you can...
What I do like about Geithner is it is easy to read his facial expressions. Not hard to tell when he is lying and avoiding questions.
He also speaks fast and slurs his words.
Why the taxpayers and not the bondholders..?
who should bear the losses on the assets...?
why in the good bank/bad bank plan are the taxpayers being asked to absorb the losses...?
why is Treasury attempting to protect bondholders..?
aanyone have an answer..?
Well you can ask him those questions, but I would think that several of them involve decisions that were not his to make. After all he was not in charge of the Treasury and was not in any official position of the Bush administration. As President of the NY Fed his position was not a Bush political position.
Ralph,
I agree with your sentiment. But to put the mp light on this, I also agree that it's a show, highly irrelevant, despite whatever belief people want to have in this simulation of democracy. The structural deficiencies within the system are such that two terms will not be long-enough to clean this up. My guess is political capital is already draining from the system. It gets much much worse from here.
-bh
IRISH police believe a well-known Dublin businessman, with extensive property interests in Britain, has killed himself.
Not a billionaire, so doesn't count as a billionaire suicide. There was a Rothschild the other day, though, and the details on cause of death haven't been forthcoming.
Laffer is a criminal. He should be executed for high treason.
sfjack | 01.21.09 - 10:42 am | #
What did he do, other than express an opinion? Why is free speech anathema to Liberals?
the tax issue...zip
the part of being the ny fed under this debacle and not taking a more active approach years earlier to attack this bubble is troubling...
how much does he really know if it was right under his nose and he didn't see it
And 75 is the new 65 when it comes to retirement.
Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 11:05 am | #
Nope - gonna die with the boots on, in the saddle - buried somewhere out there on the trail.
Max writes:
The tax code is so freaking complicated, you have to cut him some slack.
What a load of $hit. Calculating where to put the income from a royalty trust is complicated. But Form 1040 SE requires some simple arithmetic. It didn't need to read the tax code, just a page of instructions.
He understood it enough to ask for, and keep, the reimbursement.
There will be no flow of credit until household balance sheets are repaired. And that won't be soon in the face of stagnant wages and falling asset values.
Throwing more money at banks only solves half of the problem.
We've earned a massive deflation. We'll either deflate, inflate or stagnate. Prosperity has left the building.
Ralph Cramdown:
But know that if it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and that the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Exceptionalism is also the enemy of the rule of law. Which do you want, the rule of law or Tim?
Fraiser is looking to make new lows...
here is Whitney Tilson Op-ed from yesterday...
"preventing the greatest bank heist in history"
The Greatest Heist In History
with respect, DB
How many suicides are we up to now?
"The status of George Bush is not that different from Augusto Pinochet. They've both been accused of running a torture program. And outside this country, there's not this ambiguity about what to do with a war crime. ... Most people abroad are going to view you not as former President George Bush, they're going to view you as a current war criminal."
"And they're going to view us as an outlaw regime for not arresting him on our own soil," Maddow remarked.
"I think so, unfortunately," Turley agreed. "A lot's at stake."
We must (without breaking the whole system) end run the banking system and lend direct to auto buyers, home buyers, students, etc.
We must devalue currency, provide Potemkin stimulus package, recap banks, issue boatloads more debt while actively suppressing yields, will selectively default overtly or by inflation. It may take decades but we will get through this. Maybe with system intact albeit reformed and re-regulated OR, as is more likely, with a quiet institutional revolution-a new currency-a new reserve currency-a nationalized banking sector.
Oh, and the tax issue, stick it, YOU need me. "You can't handle the truth"
That's the script I wanna hear.
What a load of $hit.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 11:10 am | #
Agree - there is no excuse for missing this... only a full mea culpa will do.
sfjack writes:
What is it about republicans that they'll stand in the way of progress that benefits all people? Their modus operendi is to debate, obfuscate and delay.
Republicans: Why the hate for the average citizens? Especially considering you're all average citizens?
sfjack | 01.21.09 - 10:35 am | #
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
What happened to Enron's Hiarchy after The Heist?
Is our Country not as important as Enron?
I should feel he nuts. .......... the balls of discipline not seen these days!.
Economist Moe Howard 3SU | 01.21.09 - 10:54 am | #
Downright obscene;-)LOL
What did he do, other than express an opinion? Why is free speech anathema to Liberals?
xxxxx | 01.21.09 - 11:09 am | #
Why must underaged dunces be so uneducated?
Laffer was advisor to the economically challenged Reagan administration and his "Laffer Curve" and "theory" was the basis of their economic plan that has adhered to for 27 years.
I'm amused how so many don't understand this basic connection.
any news yet on what caused USDJPY to drop?
I guess he's better than Phil Gramm.
All this talk about politics misses the point. The #1 task of all politicians is this: get re-elected.
Everything else is secondary to this first rule. If by accident, enacting or supporting the best policy happens to be the least-resistant path to re-election then it will be taken.
Otherwise, it's a total crapshoot of lobby money, provincialism, superstition, and malleable principles.
dryfly writes:
> What a load of $hit.
Agree - there is no excuse for missing this... only a full mea culpa will do.
Agreed. This is elementary stuff. The tax code sure can be complicated. That part isn't the complicated part.
There will be no flow of credit until household balance sheets are repaired. And that won't be soon in the face of stagnant wages and falling asset values.
Throwing more money at banks only solves half of the problem.
We've earned a massive deflation. We'll either deflate, inflate or stagnate. Prosperity has left the building.
Angry Saver | 01.21.09 - 11:10 am | #
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
It's amusing that so many Republicans are so suddenly concerned about paying taxes.
Ben Frank'll Tank Bernanke | 01.21.09 - 11:11 am
That about sums it up.....
John Kerry must be fun to play poker with. He first says he's tipping his hand and then does it.
I guess he's better than Phil Gramm.
Beach Blvd | 01.21.09 - 11:15 am | #
Best left handed compliment ever.
ANyone know what is going on with US Bank??
Down 20% today
USB: Summary for US BANCORP- Yahoo! Finance
Gareth G writes:
It's amusing that so many Republicans are so suddenly concerned about paying taxes.
Gareth G | 01.21.09 - 11:17 am | #
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy?
Every time I hear John Kerry speak, I think to myself: No matter what else happens, that man will never be President. And it always improves my mood.
John Kerry must be fun to play poker with. He first says he's tipping his hand and then does it.
bearly | 01.21.09 - 11:18 am | #
His wife probably doesn't let him play.
Laffer was advisor to the economically challenged Reagan administration and his "Laffer Curve" and "theory" was the basis of their economic plan [...]
Laffer was just intellectual window-dressing. Nancy's astrologer was the real power behind the throne.
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
No. Throwing good money after bad is silly.
I'm for letting the free market work. Let people default and let banks fail. In the alternative, loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender.
Mr Kerry: I feel, and I think the President feels, that we're on the verge of a completely different economy...
The whip holders in the banks aren't going to like that.
Madoff not wear a bullet-proof vest.
Inquiring mind: Was this provided by the state (tax dollars) or did he have to buy one? mmm
Laffer was advisor to the economically challenged Reagan administration and his "Laffer Curve" and "theory" was the basis of their economic plan that has adhered to for 27 years.
sfjack | 01.21.09 - 11:14 am | #
I still haven't seen a crime mentioned, or anything that would amount to treason. And BTW, I'm in my 50s. I actually remember the debate over the Laffer Curve, and voodoo economics, and I even saw RR speak in '81.
The tax code on self-employment income is VERY SIMPLE. Schedule SE is the easiest form to fill out.
Too many Zombie Banks out there - Sen. John Kerry.
Didn't he get the memo. Truth is dangerous in our finance system.
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy?
Bill in Los Angeles | 01.21.09 - 11:19 am | #
What exactly is nominating/confirming a tax cheat to run the IRS? Unfrickingbelievable.
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
And would you be doing them a favor if you did? There are a couple I know in money trouble. But in both cases, giving them money would be sending it down a rat hole.
Frankly, the best recourse is for them to default and help them when they can get in a sustainable situation.
"loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender."
If it was your money as a lender would you write down a principle? I can see a interest rate change, which will probably not change a default as rates where and are very low.
....if you allow the opinion; "the tax avoidance thing is nothing to preclude him from serving", then you also by inference have no problem with his being deceitful and opaque about national financial matters.
Character has no bearing in this "new Change"? Only if it's a "careless avoidable mistake"?
Thieves are generally thieves in more than one manner......
Would you lend your 'angry savings' to the average household right now? I wouldn't.
dryfly | 01.21.09 - 11:17 am | #
Thus the liquidity trap we fine ourselves in. The banks, BTW, think the same way.
In the alternative, loans can be renegotiated by agreement of the borrower and lender.
The silent third party at any such negotiation is always the state: Absent private agreement, what will the law enforce regarding bankruptcy/restructuring. Unless you believe there should be no insolvency law, and all current assets and future earnings of debtors are subject to private-law forfeiture to creditors, you really have to specify what kind of bankruptcy laws you believe in.
Frankly, the best recourse is for them to default and help them when they can get in a sustainable situation.
Bob_in_MA | 01.21.09 - 11:24 am | #
Agree - also applies to the banks - orderly bankruptcy & then 'rehabilitation'. It is the only path out.
What Corporate Executives Would Ask Geithner - washingtonpost.com
WAPO
What Corporate Executives Would Ask Geithner
The housekeeper's papers expiring after she had been with them a while and just before her employment ended seems like a simple oversight. I doubt that I or anyone else I know would have thought about it.
Similarly, with the taxes, it seems more likely to be carelessness than avarice. This wasn't exactly his area of concern at the time. I imagine that he spent no more time doing his own taxes than cleaning his own house.
That being said, the next Treasury Secretary will probably have a lot of responsibility on the revenue side with so much red ink flowing. Obama seems very interested in civic responsibilities (like paying taxes). I imagine that we will hear some comments to that effect when the subject of deficits comes up.
I agree dryfly with pre-packaging these bks, but it must be said that doing so relieves us of third-world status, by giving us 2nd world status. This is what we are fighting for.
--bh
Economist Moe Howard 3SU writes:
If it was your money as a lender would you write down a principle?
Only if you want to stay in business. What do you want, partial default or full default? It was your faulty due diligence that made the loan.
Imaginary payments you never receive are only better than real payments you do receive if you're an american banker and the FASB and regulators will waive the laws of reality for you. Cashflow is better than pride.
Gareth G writes:
It's amusing that so many Republicans are so suddenly concerned about paying taxes.
Gareth G | 01.21.09 - 11:17 am | #
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy?
Bill in Los Angeles | 01.21.09 - 11:19 am | #
WTF are y'all talking about? If Obama's stated tax plan (from the campaigh) ever makes it through, Repubs and Limosine Liberals will be the only folks paying taxes inthis country. Furthermore, Repubs have been critics of the tax code for years, many advocating a flat tax where "everyone" pays their fair share. Try getting info from a source "other" than the DailyKOS. Sheesh!
Hey hey, ho ho, this Geithner dude has got to go!
Is there anything about the republicans that doesn't scream hypocrisy?
Bill in Los Angeles
It's as bad as sanctimonious Democrats speaking of responsibility, then saying they deserve a bye on tax cheating because the Republicans did it first...
I first voted for Carter and in 15+ elections have never voted for any Republican. But this indifference to to to the lack of responsibility this cheat has taken really makes my stomach turn.
Obama should have withdrawn the nomination as soon as this became known.
I've a question. Concerning the bondholders of, say, the ilk of Citi and BAC, what percentage of outstanding bonds are held by international institutions (if that's even a question that can be answered)?
"The tax code on self-employment income is VERY SIMPLE. Schedule SE is the easiest form to fill out"
Paying is simple it's the deductions that are tough. Wonder if Geithner's Turbo missed any deducts....
Sorry, didn't close the italics...
asl hearts lenin,
you must report to your local soccer stadium for asking such questions. Your belongings will meet you where you are going.
--bh
Yeah Wyden!
When it comes to investing, banking, taxes etc. in this Calvinball climate, I am reminded of the WOPR statement at the end of WarGames:
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
Take your money out of the banks, 401ks, 529s, investment accounts, brokerage accounts now. While you still can.
"It isn't a 'deal breaker' per se but it sure requires a full 'mea culpa'"
To me it is a deal-breaker because this isn't about Tim Geithner only, but about everybody else who will come along over time. If he draws a pass for only paying taxes when he has a chance to move his career up, then everybody else does, too. I don't want that.
I want the guy who has seen all of this financial going down AND instead of quietly sitting back and being a paid accomplice....had the moral and testicular fortitude to shout from the roof tops that the barn is burning.
The question is...does Timmay fit the bill?
This pony says Nay.
Geithner and his ilk (congresscritters) view $42,000 as an overlooked error due to the "paltry" sum; chump change. The message to the people who earn this or less as chumps don't count either. Geithner's refusal to stepdown and congress's refusal to withdraw his nomination is nothing more than reaffirmation of continuation of the congames. In the immortal words of Thomas Paine, "I disbelieve them all."
Someone's gotta say it...
We need a Suicide Czar.
When the govt gives money to a bank like BofA, does it reaaly print bills to that amount? Or is it just a an adjustment to the books? In the case of latter it will save us stupid taxpayers the cost of printing?
I see he is still sticking to the bald-faced lie about carelessly forgetting to pay those taxes. Seriously, does anyone other than the most wild-eyed Obama acolyte buy this line?
....if you allow the opinion; "the tax avoidance thing is nothing to preclude him from serving", then you also by inference have no problem with his being deceitful and opaque about national financial matters.
I may be in the minority here, but I believe that public guile is part of the job description of a central banker. He should always work privately toward the goals in the charter, and his public statements should always be the servant of orderly markets. If he can't be believed when he claims to be hewing to a strong-dollar policy (even as he's privately inflating our way out of our problems), he's no damn good.
Frankly, I see the lack of a good poker face as a bigger disqualifier than the tax issue. And if he did intentionally evade taxes, I'd prefer -- for this job -- someone who'd bluff his way through it, rather than emit a big mea culpa. Short-stack central banking is closer to poker than many people realize.
I knew TG when we both went to JHU SAIS back in the 80's. He seemed like a good guy, although we wasn't necessarily the best at international economics(that may explain why he was getting daily tutoring sessions on macroeconomics at the NY Fed). My biggest concern is that he appeared to have been anointed by the TPTB to hold high office in the future. His dad was very high in the Ford Foundation and has relatives who were very high in the Justice Dept in the Nixon Administration. TG is the latest in a long line of elite civil servants. Re: tax evasion, there is really no excuse for him having failed to pay his self-employment tax, having been "grossed-up" by the IMF and having signed a paper advising him of his responsibility to pay the SE tax. I just can't figure out why he would not pay; he was in the Treasury Dept under Clinton (when Roubini and Setser worked for him) and clearly had aspirations for higher office.
Damn...this whole tax thing is a smoke screen, but I f'd my taxes up in 2004, and the IRS gratiously, without warning snagged ~$8,850 from my account in June.
Wish I could just claim an oversight myself.
Oh well...the Privaleges of running the FRBNY and now Treasury.
Nostrovia,
sfjack,
I'm taking this from a commenter at The Big Picture - There is only one party. The party of the Incumbents. If you think the Democrats care any more about you than the Republicans then you haven't been paying attention.
In the land of the ruling elite:
Average Income = "de minimus error".
Putting aside politics, anyone on this thread think Tim is the man, if so why.
Timmy was already on the inside, right, so he already knows what's going down.
Wonder if Paulson has cleared US air space yet.
Oh well...the Privaleges of running the FRBNY and now Treasury.
Comrade Misean is Dope | 01.21.09 - 11:36 am | #
It is good to be king.
At least we get something close to the truth when there is a confirmation involved. Listen carefully.
In the "really good news" department, the A2/P2 spread is down to 158 basis points
.
The fix is in. And has been for some time.
If he draws a pass for only paying taxes when he has a chance to move his career up, then everybody else does, too.
I though he caught the error and paid the back taxes in 2006? Not defending the guy, just setting the facts straight.
...the "lying" part is worse then the "feigning stupid part".
Timmy was already on the inside, right, so he already knows what's going down.
AP'Shadow | 01.21.09 - 11:37 am | #
He knows he has the votes or he'd be doing something else right now.
Any other questions?
"Only if you want to stay in business. What do you want, partial default or full default? It was your faulty due diligence that made the loan."
If you where smart, first you would not have lend the money. That said now if you allow the mortgage holder to be rewarded in reducing the principle you enable bad behavior. My world neither would ever happen. So honestly keeping failed mortgage owners is as bad as keeping Banksters in business. I have lost money on principle and have hell for some who played games with me. Business has it's risk and you should except the results as a lesson.
"but I believe that public guile is part of the job description of a central banker."
Put Ralph down on the "Aye" side of "lying bastards in gov't a plus" side.
Nostrovia,
"He knows he has the votes or he'd be doing something else right now."
....Yeah, I shoulda seen that.....
It is good to be king.
dryfly
True, until the pissboy throws the bucket of piss in your face
Black Star Ranch writes:
Character has no bearing in this "new Change"? Only if it's a "careless avoidable mistake"?
Thieves are generally thieves in more than one manner......
Oh irony. What popular attitudes might have contributed to this exceptionalistic approach to the rule of law, I wonder.
Could it have been byes given to authorities figures who flagrantly abused their power, as long as they acted as a proxy for your anxieties. Or provided cheap credit. Or helped your party's political situation.
Oh never. We just fell out off a pumpkin cart one morning and here we are.
...the "lying" part is worse then the "feigning stupid part".
Black Star Ranch | 01.21.09 - 11:39 am | #
What distinguishes "lying" from "feigning stupid"? They're both an overt, intentional attempt at deception.
dryfly,
I believe it's this bit...
YouTube - The French Revolution (from The History of The World Part 1)
Nostrovia,
"Or helped your party's political situation."
What, pray tell, party are we referring to? I have none. Both are crooks - hence this hearing sham....
He's a keeper, with his face in the news, the markets are green i.e. building confidence back into the financia system! Th small bounce in the market is not worse than what happened yesterday!
Max,
He did not catch the "error", the IRS did when it audited him for two tax years. Of course, Geithner knew the IRS didn't catch everything else for the years it did not audit, so he didn't pay those "errors" until he knew someone was going to be looking at them in the confirmation process.
And calling those errors is ludicrous. All the evidence shows he knew he was liable for the tax and chose not to pay it when filing.
Consider the record now set straight.
Yeah Bunning with a fastball to the nuts!
The nagging question is why Obama is installing Clintonites? Did I miss a news flash of Obama conceding the presidency to Hilary and Rahm? It will be more of the same; Night of the Living Dead, as they pump up the insolvent banksters and decimate the people's present and future incomes.
"Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man cant ride you unless your back is bent."
Martin Luther King, Jr
Misean, claiming an oversight doesn't get him out of paying the bill. That stinks for you though. I guess that's the downside of having your refunds directly deposited to your account. The penalties and interest really bite. They can add up to more than the amount of unpaid tax. If you have anything other than the simplest return, a professional preparer is a good idea.
It's not negligence to not pay your SE taxes, it's willful dodging. Period. The form is very simple and can't be missed.
The new admin fumbled and replay confirms.
Black Star Ranch writes:
What, pray tell, party are we referring to? I have none. Both are crooks - hence this hearing sham....
Thus illustrating the peril of exceptionalism, right?
I like Jim Bunning
BSR, I think Mandarin is saying that we've tolerated a lot of BS from public servants before, when it suited us. So why are we getting so peckinsniff now?
Interesting, this divide between elected and appointed officials...izit that we don't trust democracy for key positions like Fed Head, CIA Chief, Defence...?
Ok, a little known fact that unto Mother Terresa a child was born...no relevant experience with US Finance, but bloody charismatic, this little Henri...who was short-listed for this job...just sayin.
This guy already knows he has the votes, just playing along making the shameless senators look like they are really here to protect the tax payers!
uNblv,
"I guess that's the downside of having your refunds directly deposited to your account."
Get facts before being stupid.
Nostrovia,
TAX HOLIDAY!!!!
YEAH, What? The dollar isn't worth anything anymore. I think I don't like this holiday.
"So why are we getting so peckinsniff now?"
Ahhhh....Well, I never tolerated as much - but then I dealt with it by dropping out decades ago - forced desert exile - gardens and cows don't lie, cheat & steal.
The whole thing from the Nam on continues to sicken me.
but I believe that public guile is part of the job description of a central banker.
A lying banker can be useful to the public, but ONLY when combined with a sterling sense of public service and selflessness. In somebody who gives away hundreds of billions of taxpayer money with little benefit, covers up the details of what he's done, and cheats on his taxes, lying to the public is NOT a virtue.
The whole thing from the Nam on continues to sicken me.
I hear you. And though I don't have TV on the spectacle, I fear dryfly, as usual, is correct.
It would be a different show if something were really at stake.
From Schedule C: If a profit, enter on both Form 1040, line 12, and Schedule SE
He did NOT accidentally miss this!
He did think he could get away with it.
BSR,
"cows don't lie, cheat & steal."
Hmmmm...I beg to differ...And plants are real rat bastards in poker...with their no expression...the "Oh, that bee...oh it didn't look at your cards before polinatiing me" spiel....GRRR!
Nostrovia,
Senator Jim Bunning called it. Geithner has not been honest or effective in the past. Tax issue aside, he was and will be part of the problem. Next, Please.
Rest assured if this tax stupidity had of happened to a farmer, the IRS would have already drove his tractor off the farm.
Happened to my father in 1962.
Put terror into the lives of his children, and laughter in the lives of the IRS agent's.
The truth of why Geithner didn't pay taxes; "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."
Leona Helmsley
Leave it to the old ball player to tell it like it is - not that it matters as this is just performance art.
Dodd hung over?
WTF are y'all talking about? If Obama's stated tax plan (from the campaigh) ever makes it through, Repubs and Limosine Liberals will be the only folks paying taxes inthis country. Furthermore, Repubs have been critics of the tax code for years, many advocating a flat tax where "everyone" pays their fair share. Try getting info from a source "other" than the DailyKOS. Sheesh!
Really?? I must have missed the time the Republican Congress and President Bush signed the flat tax into law. What year was that again? Oh wait, they didn't introduce a flat tax because it had zero chance of being passed. Talk about a gift to the rich. The flat tax was more trickle down and voodoo economics. Try to stay in reality, xxxxx.
you guys and taxes!
oy vey
75 years ago SS did'nt exist.
100 years ago the fed did'nt exist
how old are you dopes?
quit pointing fingers. taxes are NOT the issue
The Scandies (NOK, SEK) are also moving up quick...
"quit pointing fingers. taxes are NOT the issue"
Where does the money come from to fuel government greed and pay the debt? Taxes are the root of the whole problem.
Where does the money come from to fuel government greed and pay the debt? Taxes are the root of the whole problem.
Economist Moe Howard 3SU
China
....thnx for the chuckle, Misea
Really?? I must have missed the time the Republican Congress and President Bush signed the flat tax into law. What year was that again? Oh wait, they didn't introduce a flat tax because it had zero chance of being passed. Talk about a gift to the rich. The flat tax was more trickle down and voodoo economics. Try to stay in reality, xxxxx.
DD49 | 01.21.09 - 11:56 am | #
No one ever got it to pass, but RR did get a simplified tax to pass, but as soon as he was gone, we drifted back to the old ways. Besides, the original question was about why Repubs are suddenly all torqued up about people paying their taxes.
Test
Critiques of this hearing strike me as critiques of the ballroom dancing on the Titanic. Put me into the column who have lost any faith the government and I dont care which side of the tapeworm is in control. While I no longer trust the integrity of the law my faith in the law of gravity gets confirmed every day.
RR did get a simplified tax to pass
With the help of Dan "Most Corrupt Democrat in Congress" Rostenkowski, no less.
"Rostenkowski was defeated by Republican attorney Michael Patrick Flanagan by a margin of eight points. Flanagan would be defeated two years later by Rod Blagojevich."
"Rostenkowski receives a federal pension of between US$ 97,000 and US$ 125,000 per year."
Daniel Rostenkowski (D) Chicago Machine.
....another chapter in the wonderful world of politics....
Chaplain bullshit hypocritical Senate bastardizing the Constitution with prayer.
Black Star Ranch writes:
Ahhhh....Well, I never tolerated as much - but then I dealt with it by dropping out decades ago - forced desert exile - gardens and cows don't lie, cheat & steal.
And I completely agree with you, down to being in exile myself.
The whole thing from the Nam on continues to sicken me.
It's true.
And so when it seems like I bust on Joe Beatcop, maybe you could consider I have something beyond simple prejudice at work. I don't really have any sympathy for either party.
I will answer everyone's tax questions in one sentence.
You will pay very much in taxes until the day you die.
anything else...
Does anyone here know at what time exactly we will know whether the tax cheat is confirmed or not?
And how are you liking the 4th Estate?
(Mainstream, that is)
The Web will save us.
"anything else...
Comrade Janosik "
What happens when real taxes exceed a hundred pennies out of a dollar/ Will they invent the 110 cent dollar?