--
Quote of the Year: It is a bad behavior problem. by Rick Santelli on CNBC
He was talking about the current debt-related economic Crisis in the US. My negativity about America, for the past 10+ years, had everything to do with my observations that Americans, led by self-serving Corporate Crooks guided by Wall Street, were behaving very badly in the areas of economics, investments and politics. When I inquired into why were Americans, especially the so-called educated, behaving badly I concluded that Americans have been systematically bred into dopes-for-life by the same self-serving Crooks, led by what I later (in 2003) called Bankrupters and Fraudsters of New York City (BFNYC). These Crooks have total control of the Fed and the USG in addition to the minds of Americans via propaganda. Obama is nothing more and nothing less than a slave of these Crooks. Can you imagine that these Crooks want to push more debt when pushing debt caused the problem in the first place?
There CANNOT be any hope for America until these Crooks are hunted down and systematically destroyed. Only violence, not voting, can accomplish that. Anyone who thinks that America has hit on the best political system in the form of modern democracy, as it is actually practiced in America and India, is a moron. Can't you see the results?
Democracy = Domination of Money (with Crooks in control of the money). Blood will conquer money! VIOLENCE HAS BEEN THE MEANS TO SETTLE DEEP DISPUTES IN AMERICA.
Lewis recommended a conservative strategy of hoarding cash and capital and waiting for the storm to pass.
LOL! Yea if everyone abides by this the storm is just going to go right by us! ! ! !
.........
OT:
On Sunday, General Growth was granted a two week extension, until Dec. 12, to repay $900 million in loans. And, Centro, which is facing a Dec. 15 deadline to repay $1.3 billion, said at a special shareholder meeting last Friday that it is attempting to work out further extensions with its lenders.Centro, GGP Find Ways to Hang On
Do you think they have the Christmas party planed?
Of course, you'll only hear sob stories from C, BofA, and the lot. Have you ever heard such endless whining from a man in a tuxedo and top hat at the golden soup line?
Reminds me of the theoretical possibility a la Hawkings that in fact some energy can leak out of a blackhole because light can theoretically travel faster than itself...
Compulsive hoarding (or pathological hoarding) is the acquisition of, and failure to use or discard, such a large number of seemingly useless possessions that it causes significant clutter and impairment to basic living activities such as mobility, cooking, cleaning, showering or sleeping.
It is not clear whether compulsive hoarding is a condition in itself, or simply a symptom of other related conditions.[1] Several studies have reported a correlation between hoarding and the presence and/or severity of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Hoarding behaviour is also related to obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD). Hoarding unnecessary possessions may be referred to as syllogomania or disposophobia.
finally seeing CEOs admit what conditions are like on the front lines, instead of blowing sunshine up our arse's. i love how some people cling to an arbitrary time (2nd half 2009) that magically sets us up for the second half recovery. Maybe they like to pick a date to feel in "control" of a situation that is far beyond their control.
Bob Steel, CEO at Wachovia (NYSE:WB), said decision makers would have to manage their businesses conservatively during the short run. Were all going to have to take control of our businesses and understand that we are in a slowdown, he said.
Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Hoarding cash is good. I'm long coffee cans and shovels.
True story....
My Wife's G-ma passed away a few years ago. Child of the Depression. As her house was being cleaned out and belongings distributed we came upon one Sucrets tin after another. All stuffed with folded $20 bills. A practice she carried on until her death. Though she was quite comfortable, she always complained of being broke. Forget the exact total dollars but was somewhere around 50-60k.
The only way you can actually hoard cash is to store the physical paper-or-metal "stuff" under a mattress (or equivalent stash). Is BofA stashing physical cash in vaults?
Everything else that bank-CEO types call "cash" isn't really cash, and DOES get lent, to someone, somewhere, somehow. "Cash" you put in a bank is loaned by you to the bank. "Cash" in a money-market fund is lent to the money markets. And so on.
Right now most folks only want to lend to Uncle Sam or the very short-term money markets, though. Not for any length of time and preferably not to each other or to corporations.
You are too old fashioned. See the big picture. China and Japan toil and send U.S. the goodies. U.S. sends out little pieces of paper that will eventually become worth less and lives rich and fat. Who do you think is smarter? The hardworking saver or the happy consumer?
these people are killing U.S.
mock turtle | 12.03.08 - 4:30 pm |
You got that right. Perhaps this is why so many from the depression era had such a hard time trusting banks for the rest of their lives.
So, is Ken suggesting a 'Revenge of the Savers' scenario where those of us the DO have money left, stuff it under the mattress, leaving the banks without depositors?
Re: Mock Turtle at 4:30 - This is what Hanky should have done instead of TARP. However, that wouldn't have filled the pockets of his fraudster friends.
"Treasury is considering a plan to halt sliding home prices by reducing mortgage rates for new loans"
1. Attempts to control prices always fail and usually create black markets and other forms of fraud.
2. High cost real estate means high cost everything, reducing the diversity of industry that can survive.
--
Ed Gramley (former Fed Gov): "The recession that is deep and getting deeper."
I am sure that this would not meet CR's definition of a "severe recession." CR will skip and jump to the depression camp some time in 2009. Economists are severely handicapped in forecasting the economy.
Bingo. This is not rocket science. The real value of a house depends on the real incomes of the people in the area and their willingness to spend their incomes on housing.
You cannot change the real value of a house by manipulating interest rates.
Actually, I think his advice to the panel was pretty good. It sounds like they were asking him a personal finance question, and he was giving them a personal finance answer. I mean, he couldn't come right out and suggest they hoard bullets, krugerrands and cast iron cookware, could he?
Jim Rogers, CEO of Duke Energy (NYSE:DUK), dubbed the economic environment as uncharted waters but called for optimism in the face of adversity. Rogers said that one of Americas greatest strengths is its ability to rise up, face its challenges and deal with them. This may be the greatest economic challenge that our country has ever faced, he said.
Well, that's true. I hope Jim and the other CEO's understand when we rise up and deal with them.
I want to bring up the now worn-out "inflation vs. deflation" debate.
What would you rather hold your wealth in: something the government can pull 7.5Trillion units out-of-their-ass with a few keyboard strokes, or something that is extremely difficult and costly to mine, and has been continuously and universally cherished for some 4000+ years?
Uncle Billy - please refrain from mentioning CR on the Gawker comment threads. I love that site for laughs, but the last thing we need over here is even more people who know just enough about economics to be dangerous coming over here to pollute the comment threads further.
In the previous thread, I suggested that in this bizarro world, perhaps housing was a good store of wealth.
Got a number of thoughtful comments back.
Let me flesh it more: as a long time renter, I'm seriously thinking of buying a home next summer and want some advice.
I do not think homes are cheap. Instead I think that if the USD were to collapse, my savings and ability to get credit would collapse as well. I could lose my job, etc.
Politically, it seems that keeping people in their homes is Job #1.
In an all out USD collapse, I seriously doubt that banks would forcible eject people from their homes. But I could imagine that as a renter, I would be unable to borrow to get a home.
What do you guys think? Could be facing a real "Buy now or be priced out forever moment?"
Of course he will hoard cash. His first goal will be survival of his company.
And who would he lend to: Automakers? Light industry? Retailers? consumer product manufacturers? Other banks? Homebuilders?
This gets right to the heart of the problem with the Feds' "throwaway" program.. they can throw the money out the door, but they cannot control what happens to it after that.
Jim Rogers, CEO of Duke Energy (NYSE:DUK), dubbed the economic environment as uncharted waters but called for optimism in the face of adversity. Rogers said that one of Americas greatest strengths is its ability to rise up, face its challenges and deal with them. This may be the greatest economic challenge that our country has ever faced, he said.
Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, this isn't the Jim Rogers.
Again, one of his better interviews for those who haven't read it:
The whole world is shining shit and calling it gold.
The conversation starts with jobs and ends with jobs. The government can decree, loan , argue and hope but if the population is unemployed then all actions are irrelevant.
"Fortress announced its first quarterly loss last month since going public in February 2007, joining rivals Blackstone Group LP and KKR & Co. LP in cutting the value of assets to match a global decline in prices. The fund had $8 billion as of Sept. 30, so the requested withdrawals amount to more than 40 percent of the money pool, according to Roger Smith, an analyst with Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran Caroni in New York.
Its tough to tell if theyve done anything wrong, said Smith, who has an in line or neutral rating on the company. The fund doesnt look to be a terrible performer relative to the industry, so Im not sure if this was based on performance alone. Its more symptomatic of what youre seeing in hedge funds across the board.
The fund had lost 12 percent since the beginning of the year, including a 10 percent drop in the third quarter, Smith said."
The stock market ignores the coming wave of hedge fund redemptions at its peril. The market may choose not to pay for them now. But it will pay later.
Where will all this hedge fund money go as it flows out? A lot will go into cash, bonds, gold, commodities or underground.
Very little will go back into the market -- other than stocks of the biggest, safest companies. Emerging markets will get murdered.
Politically speaking, home owners are placed higher than renters. The political class has been speaking for the past year about the "foreclosure" crisis. This means to me that all things being equal, a renter gets screwed before the property owner.
To rephrase: is it time to become a property owner as a hedge against a USD collapse and benefit from the political goodwill?
Downturn Spares Few Areas of U.S. - WSJ.com
Beige Book Shows Broad Weakness
WASHINGTON -- A Federal Reserve report Wednesday shows that economic activity across the nation has weakened even further, adding to this week's string of dismal financial news.
Since the Fed released its last beige book in mid-October, economic activity has softened further across all 12 of the nation's Federal Reserve districts, which include major cities such as New York, Cleveland, Richmond, Atlanta and Chicago, the latest report shows. (Read the full report.)
As a business owner I can tell first hand that banks do not lend. In my opinion a combination of them being broke and scared. All their valuation models have gone down the toilet. The banks are in survival mode and they let my business go down before offering or extending a credit line. I grew up in a free market society, this is no longer the case. There is no free market in the US, it is a socialized market that is subsidized by current and next generation tax payers money. The playing field is not level - only a few select have access to liquidity through the US government and the irony is, they don't pass it down to the companies and small businesses that actually create jobs.
Also, you might think that hedge funds' suspending redemptions would actually help the market in the short run, because the money will be returned to investors gradually over a year or two.
Not so.
Investors have more than one fear about hedge funds. They fear more market losses in risky strategies. They fear the lack of transparency. They fear counterparty risk. And they fear hedge fund insolvencies or people just running off with the money.
Probably, they also know huge regulation of hedge funds is coming and would rather not be part of it.
Every announcement of a redemption suspension triggers more redemption requests. Funds in suspension can keep managing the fund, but they have to dial risk and leverage way back. They are fiduciaries, and fiduciary duty rises in suspension.
If you are a GP and lose 10-20% after annnouncing a suspension, you can kiss your net worth goodbye.
"It's ridiculous that homebuilders stock prices are at double or triple their levels of 2000, or even September 2001...
ShortCourage"
Don't worry. These HB stocks have had mini rallies for the last 3 years. The HBers do not have any reason to exist over the next 3 years as they cannt compete on price with foreclosures. Additionally, the cost of their liabilities continue to increase as the land market continues its collapse and high cancellation rates prolong their holding of built (and depreciating) inventory. Finally, their basic expenses (salaries) suck away any money they make.
Shnaps, it doesn't feel anything like a drudge-bomb. My intention was to cross fertilize a little. There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here. The little knowledge = danger thing, well, aren't you forgetting something?
Respect your comment, but don't agree with it.
Anyone here who came over from "that site that shall not be named" anyway?
Most of the public companies that are prime credit default candidates are over-leveraged small-caps. There's a ton of them in tech.
So, the default rate for this segment would be even greater than for companies as a whole. Yet, right now, the forward P/E of the Russell 2000 Index, based on crazily inflated earnings estimates for 2009, is about 30.
In other words, the market is betting small-cap stocks will do amazingly well even if many over-leveraged small-caps default on their debts.
Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, this isn't the Jim Rogers
Oh, clearly not.
Mr Rogers (of Duke) should have figured out this "rise up in the face of adversity" several years ago as the Greenspan converted the economy from honesty to dishonesty.
I'm just plumb worn out from waiting for anybody else to get a clue. This year and last, I was interviewing potential employees and the resumes are a joke, sometimes 15 pages long with cool graphics and every buzzword known to man.
Hype is everything, value is nothing.
I'm off to play pool and leer at young, lithe women. Hard to do in Boise, true, but there's a few of them about.
"To rephrase: is it time to become a property owner as a hedge against a USD collapse and benefit from the political goodwill?
Mr. Beach | 12.03.08 - 4:56 pm | # "
Mr. Beach, apparently nobody knows. But I've had the same thoughts for next year if local prices continue to lower. It would be hedge against hyperinflation, whether caused by an outright USD collapse or something else.
But I can't tell you these thoughts are based on anything but my own fears.
Elvis, yes, true what you say about the homebuildres. But those facts have been true for 1-2 years now. It's really amazing how they levitate. Equally amazing that none of the big ones have folded.
OMG I am so scared. I just got laid off and I came from Gawker over here to ask what should I do?
I have three mortgages and I bought a house in Miami that is underwater and I can't pay of them mortgages and if I get evivated I will have to go live with my mom.
I also am afraid of turtles so I cannot live in Miami.
I was not so smart and I maybe might become homeless.
"Lewis recommended a conservative strategy of hoarding cash and capital and waiting for the storm to pass."
First, I admit my knowledge of macroeconomics is rudimentary at best and non-existent at worst.
But my speculation for a few months now is that the hoarding of all this cash the government is dumping on these financial companies is what's causing some (as of yet) minor deflation. Since there is little lending, prices must come down to spur demand.
What worries me is that once there's any reasonable sign of an economic recovery (hey I can be optimistic, right?), they'll take all this money they've been hoarding for years and just dump it on the economy in the form of loans. This will spur massive inflation.
I'd be happy to listen to anyone that can explain to me why I'm wrong since I'm sure I am.
"Elvis, yes, true what you say about the homebuildres. But those facts have been true for 1-2 years now. It's really amazing how they levitate. Equally amazing that none of the big ones have folded.
ShortCourage"
It is like the horror movies when somebody you thought was dead keeps coming back. However, this isn't the movies. Homebuilders will die as soon as or before their carryback tax refunds are gone. Count on it.
I think gold will do pretty well in the future because so many people in the world believe it is a constant store of value. This is true across continents, cultures and human history.
But in a way, I think you are right that gold won't be the "real money" of the future because of its lack of utility.
I think the real global money of the future will be...well, Mad Max had it right.
But my speculation for a few months now is that the hoarding of all this cash the government is dumping on these financial companies is what's causing some (as of yet) minor deflation. Since there is little lending, prices must come down to spur demand.
What worries me is that once there's any reasonable sign of an economic recovery (hey I can be optimistic, right?), they'll take all this money they've been hoarding for years and just dump it on the economy in the form of loans. This will spur massive inflation.
I'd be happy to listen to anyone that can explain to me why I'm wrong since I'm sure I am.
That's a legitimate concern.
That attempts to combat deflation will simply lead to an inflationary disaster once the economy and lending recover.
If you take a situation where you already have 10%-12% unemployment and then layer a late 70s type mess over things you could be looking at an apocalypse. Good luck getting anyone to crank rates up to 20% to save the dollar. The political will won't be there to do that.
A collapse of the dollar would probably lead to a nation that we wouldn't recognize.
At least the US survived the Great Depression.
It's worth considering that if we screw things up badly enough we won't be so lucky this time.
Let's bring all those guys back from Iraq who were trained in martial arts and put them to work...
Uh oh, no jobs here for them.
OK, we can just let them hang around grumbling and thinking about what to do with their extra time and all that training while watching the soup lines get longer and the CEO's get richer.
Technicals from Mizuho! Video - CNBC.com
And a reprise about the monster--appropriate. Video - CNBC.com
Layer upon layer of lies, misinformation and therefore the formation of parallel markets, universes of money.
There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here.
That's coz they have moderators that only allow the wittiest comments through. If their unfiltered readers came here and started posting here, believe me, you'd rather read pure Jas Jain.
Oh, and look about 5 comments up..
Ibod Catooga writes: OMG I am so scared. I just got laid off and I came from Gawker over here to ask what should I do?...I am afraid of turtles!
dryfly writes:
Why elevate the legal force available to failed institutions, failed methodologies, and failed ideologies?
You talking about the banks or what? Sounds like the banks.
dryfly | 12.03.08 - 5:04 pm | #
It doesn't matter. All of these guys/gals are in bed together. See Oligarchy.
If you think there are many on this board who don't care about one another, you should look at goobermints, yes I said goobermints, at all levels, as well as many heads of corps/companies.
The "Greed is Good" memo changed this country forever.
I am not sure we can win it back. It will be hard without serious bloodhsed as Jas writes, or a very, very MASSIVE movement among the rank and file, like say, everyone making less than 100K not paying taxes.
ooooh yeah we get same store retail numbers tomorrow, don't we? THAT will be interesting, how the hard(er) numbers compare with ShopperTrak estimates...though they revised their estimates
Black Friday: +3% YoY sales
Friday-Sunday: +0.9% YoY sales
Most striking: Additionally, ShopperTraks Retail Traffic Index (SRTI) reported total U.S. weekend foot traffic fell 19.3 percent for the same three-day period in 2007 Page not found | ShopperTrak
Shnaps writes:
There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here.
That's coz they have moderators that only allow the wittiest comments through.
Forget, wittiness or some of the zaniness here. What we need are real solutions that will move this country's economy forward in a sustainable method. I don't care if Bubbles the clown and his monkey have the answer as long as it works.
What we have now is not an answer and it is def. not working!
So the same people can screw us over except with legal authority?
~~~~
At least they will get the credit system moving again ... all we are doing now is feathering the bankers nest while the economy burns to the ground. The pols need that tax revenue, they will pump the economy up.
The "Greed is Good" memo changed this country forever.
We agree on that for sure.
BTW - I'm not in favor of bank nationalization unless we go 'Scandinavian' on them - similar to prepack BK but rougher on existing mgmt - burn them all, wipe out equity, clip bond holders... then recapitalize and finally reprivatize.
Scandi's did exactly that in the 90s w/ their bank failures - taught them all what moral hazard was about WITHOUT destroying their countries in the process.
Our fricking plutocrats all have us trapped in 'MAD' - mutually assured destruction - pay us or we all blow up. There are other options - Sweden, Norway & Finland can show us how it is done.
I kid you not, Citibank is buying an infrastructure company in Spain for ~$10 Billion. What does that have to do with increasing lending? Nada, as far as I can tell.
How much bailout money did Citi just get? $20 billion immediately and $300 billion in guarantees?
This is BS. Citi is acquiring the company, Itinere Infraestructuras, through its infrastructure fund,
Citi Infrastructure Partners.
Citi knows Obamanomics includes MASSIVE infrastructure spending and wants to make money in Spain also. I believe the global mantra will be build more and TVA style jobs for everyone....yeahhhhhh!
Hmm... I wonder if Mr. Lewis is at all aware that two of the corps. that he recently purchased (LaSalle and Merrill) are defendants in my racketeering action.
I suppose the more appropriate and direct question would be - is there any chance that he cares?
The banks have vast quantities of bad assets that are currently off their balance sheets in QSPEs, SIVs etc.
FASB rules stipulate that these have to brought back on to their balance sheets. When they do, these large amounts of capital they are sitting on (from the TARP) will be wiped out many times over.
They won't have much left to lend out. This is why Bernanke isn't worried about hyperinflation. To the extent that the banks do lend loosely causing inflation (not the hyper variety) Bernanke will mop up the liquidity by raising rates.
Well, that should be good for +1000 on the Dow.
Ding!
Wait, does that say "Charlotte CEOs", as in plural?
--
Quote of the Year: It is a bad behavior problem. by Rick Santelli on CNBC
He was talking about the current debt-related economic Crisis in the US. My negativity about America, for the past 10+ years, had everything to do with my observations that Americans, led by self-serving Corporate Crooks guided by Wall Street, were behaving very badly in the areas of economics, investments and politics. When I inquired into why were Americans, especially the so-called educated, behaving badly I concluded that Americans have been systematically bred into dopes-for-life by the same self-serving Crooks, led by what I later (in 2003) called Bankrupters and Fraudsters of New York City (BFNYC). These Crooks have total control of the Fed and the USG in addition to the minds of Americans via propaganda. Obama is nothing more and nothing less than a slave of these Crooks. Can you imagine that these Crooks want to push more debt when pushing debt caused the problem in the first place?
There CANNOT be any hope for America until these Crooks are hunted down and systematically destroyed. Only violence, not voting, can accomplish that. Anyone who thinks that America has hit on the best political system in the form of modern democracy, as it is actually practiced in America and India, is a moron. Can't you see the results?
Democracy = Domination of Money (with Crooks in control of the money). Blood will conquer money! VIOLENCE HAS BEEN THE MEANS TO SETTLE DEEP DISPUTES IN AMERICA.
Jas
whoring cash?
o SH%&, sHERLOCK !
Regards,
Kilgore Trout
Lewis recommended a conservative strategy of hoarding cash and capital and waiting for the storm to pass.
LOL! Yea if everyone abides by this the storm is just going to go right by us! ! ! !
.........
OT:
On Sunday, General Growth was granted a two week extension, until Dec. 12, to repay $900 million in loans. And, Centro, which is facing a Dec. 15 deadline to repay $1.3 billion, said at a special shareholder meeting last Friday that it is attempting to work out further extensions with its lenders. Centro, GGP Find Ways to Hang On
Do you think they have the Christmas party planed?
........
Ha, sounds like the reporter consciously threw in that bit about the hoarding cash just to piss people off.
Oh YEAH! Orgasm rally! That fully charged nightstand cowboy's gonna get a workout!!
I would suggest hoarding bullets instead.
Hoarding cash doesn't sound like lending ...
Sounds like treason to me!
Banks are robbing the Fed and taxpayers Iraq-contractor style:
TARP Trouble GAO Report Rips Internal Controls Bank Monitoring: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance
Of course, you'll only hear sob stories from C, BofA, and the lot. Have you ever heard such endless whining from a man in a tuxedo and top hat at the golden soup line?
Charlotte, South Carolina?
I've got an idea. Draw concentric circles around Charlotte and see how far you have to go before you encounter BofA's issues.
Charlotte's Ken Lewis == TERRIFIC PIG
Hey Ken, how's that Countrywide deal working out for you? Still having fun with Merrill?
Pardners,
Lending is so 20th century.
THis is the century of the bailout!
The horse are waiting for their bailout so they can invest in a manure recycling plant.
GIddyup!
Sounds bullish.
"The Sun will come up toomorrow!" Oh, maybe not.....
"The Sun will come up toomorrow!" Oh, maybe not....
But the birds will still sing and wait...
Hoarding cash is good. I'm long coffee cans and shovels.
PS - Where does Jas live? I'm assuming its NOT in the U.S.
Pardners,
invest in a good metal detector for all those coffee cans
Giddyup!
Reminds me of the theoretical possibility a la Hawkings that in fact some energy can leak out of a blackhole because light can theoretically travel faster than itself...
Hope to build on.
Is Paulson going to give them more cash to hoard? They can't hoard it all; they need to pay executive bonuses.
That's just great Ken? Whose money are you hoarding again?
"PS - Where does Jas live? I'm assuming its NOT in the U.S.
Rev. Elmer Gantry"
The desert in CA.
MP,
If you are reading looks like no action was taken today. How many days do we have left?
I just read this "breaking news" on WSJ: "Treasury is considering a plan to halt sliding home prices by reducing mortgage rates for new loans"
So wrong on so many levels. I feel ill.
pardners,
Ken has a disease.
Compulsive hoarding (or pathological hoarding) is the acquisition of, and failure to use or discard, such a large number of seemingly useless possessions that it causes significant clutter and impairment to basic living activities such as mobility, cooking, cleaning, showering or sleeping.
It is not clear whether compulsive hoarding is a condition in itself, or simply a symptom of other related conditions.[1] Several studies have reported a correlation between hoarding and the presence and/or severity of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Hoarding behaviour is also related to obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD). Hoarding unnecessary possessions may be referred to as syllogomania or disposophobia.
Compulsive hoarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
GIddyup!
"PS - Where does Jas live?"
I doubt his family cares. Why do you?
finally seeing CEOs admit what conditions are like on the front lines, instead of blowing sunshine up our arse's. i love how some people cling to an arbitrary time (2nd half 2009) that magically sets us up for the second half recovery. Maybe they like to pick a date to feel in "control" of a situation that is far beyond their control.
Ungrateful prick
Why do I picture little orphan annie getting smacked by a brick as she tries to sing "Tomorrow"?
/weird
I doubt his family cares. Why do you?
lama
..blew chunks
Another CEO at the event was:
Bob Steel, CEO at Wachovia (NYSE:WB), said decision makers would have to manage their businesses conservatively during the short run. Were all going to have to take control of our businesses and understand that we are in a slowdown, he said.
Let's take control of our business...now.
Remember when oil wasn't a bubble created by the August 2007 rate cuts?
Trickle down finally worked. You got trickled on.
only a 2% pop?
I really wish there was a way to short the PGA tour.
Maybe the traders are thinking Christmas bonuses.
"Hoarding cash doesn't sound like lending"
So we need taxpayer money to fund banks so they can inturn continue to grease the system...
Elvis,
Re: PGA - Are you saying that the $1,000,000 prizes for first place are going the way of the dinosaurs?
This is the same guy who just bought Countrywide and ML, right?
weepstah - new prize program...a new car for every ticket sold
I just read this "breaking news" on WSJ: "Treasury is considering a plan to halt sliding home prices by reducing mortgage rates for new loans"
So wrong on so many levels. I feel ill.
theotherdeb
Seriously, can somebody name a single thing that they have done to make things better?
Is there anything they have done that does not involve postponing current problems and creating far bigger problems in the future?
Pardners,
Mike M writes:
This is the same guy who just bought Countrywide and ML, right?
Mike M | 12.03.08 - 4:18 pm | #
He is hoarding insolvent companies.
GIddyup!
If you've ever heard Lewis speak, you know everybody on this board flushes twice his IQ after breakfast each morning.
Yes, Ken, if the banks refuse to lend the storm will pass.
I want my 700 big ones back. Now. And nationalize his stupid bloated ass.
"Re: PGA - Are you saying that the $1,000,000 prizes for first place are going the way of the dinosaurs?
weepstah"
I'm saying all their sponsors are broke, so they be playing for dinner for four at Bennie's Fish Emporium.
Hey, at least he didn't say that BoA needs to throw elaborate parties in order to prop up the hotel and catering industries!
Wow, Paulson and Lewis are circling the bowl together.
I guess investing $8B in a Chinese bank is hording money too...
The absurdity is that you lend the banks money in order for them to lend to you.
The first is called the TARP and the second a loan.
Thx Elvis and Llama.. I was just curious, that's all.
sidebar: perhaps the PGA could offer 1,000,000 shares of LEH as a prize.. or some CDSs..
a nice basket of MBS?
no?
I'm finally bullish after being a long term bear. Comments like these from a "captain of finance" make me smile. Keep buying those .05% treasuries.
Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Hoarding cash is good. I'm long coffee cans and shovels.
True story....
My Wife's G-ma passed away a few years ago. Child of the Depression. As her house was being cleaned out and belongings distributed we came upon one Sucrets tin after another. All stuffed with folded $20 bills. A practice she carried on until her death. Though she was quite comfortable, she always complained of being broke. Forget the exact total dollars but was somewhere around 50-60k.
Apropos hoarding: This claims Keynes was a packrat and then outs his secret diaries:
THE SEX DIARIES OF JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES | More Intelligent Life
Via this gawker.com post with the punchy headline:
Can This Gay Sex Maniac Fix the Economy? - John Maynard Keynes - Gawker
I agree with the above poster:
Some pig.
Great story Now.. thx for sharing
Again, I recommend Robert Pelton's Come Back Alive.
Common sense guide to surviving being mauled by a bear, or more likely killed in your own bathroom by a psychotic stereo, or malicious bar of soap...
The only way you can actually hoard cash is to store the physical paper-or-metal "stuff" under a mattress (or equivalent stash). Is BofA stashing physical cash in vaults?
Everything else that bank-CEO types call "cash" isn't really cash, and DOES get lent, to someone, somewhere, somehow. "Cash" you put in a bank is loaned by you to the bank. "Cash" in a money-market fund is lent to the money markets. And so on.
Right now most folks only want to lend to Uncle Sam or the very short-term money markets, though. Not for any length of time and preferably not to each other or to corporations.
A bubble in cash?
ok
translation for regular people
lewis, " dig a deep deep hole, climb in, surround yourself with dollar bills, and suck your thumb while crying..
mommy , mommy , please help me, bad man want to hurt me mommy
And I thought the sun shone out of their asses...whoodathot
True story....
My Wife's G-ma passed away a few years ago. Child of the Depression
In our case, it was finding hundreds of "Country Crock" margarine tubs. No money, unfortunately.
Well, time to short BAC- I guess hoarding cash would mean shooting the divvy.
It does seem kind of obvious.
I wonder if I should draw my limit on my BAC credit cards...
After all, I need to hoard cash too;-}
Or ammo.
Someday this war's gonna end...
ther is one
and only one way out of this mess
by pass the banks
loan money directly to business people and home owners and students going to trade schools and community colleges and 4 year schools...etc
from
the new
"bank of the United States of America"
ie...by-pass the fed and all the banksters and wallstreet, and the rest who are sitting in credit chairs and waiting for the music to stop
these people are killing U.S.
Wants to violently overthrow democracy in favor of a Jasocracy. I have no doubt it would be Shangri La.
Hey he might decree the bicycle as the only mode of transort!
doh! transport
Jas,
You are too old fashioned. See the big picture. China and Japan toil and send U.S. the goodies. U.S. sends out little pieces of paper that will eventually become worth less and lives rich and fat. Who do you think is smarter? The hardworking saver or the happy consumer?
It all runs on lies. They are written into The Book of History as what they are.
YouTube - September - Cry for you
Jas, you really need to read up on your Gandhi...
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony"
My pool game is absolutely awesome. Last night I met a 25-y-o chick named Andrea, black, wavy hair, olive skin, sexy in a quiet librarian way.
OMG, Maria B must have gone to her plastic surgeon yesterday. She has so much filler pumped into her lips that it is affecting her speech.
What ever happened to subtlety?
Why would anybody hoard cash when there's so much more where that came from?
these people are killing U.S.
mock turtle | 12.03.08 - 4:30 pm |
You got that right. Perhaps this is why so many from the depression era had such a hard time trusting banks for the rest of their lives.
So, is Ken suggesting a 'Revenge of the Savers' scenario where those of us the DO have money left, stuff it under the mattress, leaving the banks without depositors?
Selling on Strength #1 position for second day in a row - SPY! hmmmm...
Re: Mock Turtle at 4:30 - This is what Hanky should have done instead of TARP. However, that wouldn't have filled the pockets of his fraudster friends.
"Treasury is considering a plan to halt sliding home prices by reducing mortgage rates for new loans"
1. Attempts to control prices always fail and usually create black markets and other forms of fraud.
2. High cost real estate means high cost everything, reducing the diversity of industry that can survive.
--
Ed Gramley (former Fed Gov): "The recession that is deep and getting deeper."
I am sure that this would not meet CR's definition of a "severe recession." CR will skip and jump to the depression camp some time in 2009. Economists are severely handicapped in forecasting the economy.
Jas
lama --
Bingo. This is not rocket science. The real value of a house depends on the real incomes of the people in the area and their willingness to spend their incomes on housing.
You cannot change the real value of a house by manipulating interest rates.
You can, however, affect the nominal value...
Actually, I think his advice to the panel was pretty good. It sounds like they were asking him a personal finance question, and he was giving them a personal finance answer. I mean, he couldn't come right out and suggest they hoard bullets, krugerrands and cast iron cookware, could he?
Slight riff on Jas's point:
If we've officially been in a 1 year recession, than by definition we are already in a severe recession.
I give it 2 more quarters until half the population realizes we are headed for a depression....
The other half will be wondering where their HELOC went...
Dude, where's my HELOC?
From the article:
Jim Rogers, CEO of Duke Energy (NYSE:DUK), dubbed the economic environment as uncharted waters but called for optimism in the face of adversity. Rogers said that one of Americas greatest strengths is its ability to rise up, face its challenges and deal with them. This may be the greatest economic challenge that our country has ever faced, he said.
Well, that's true. I hope Jim and the other CEO's understand when we rise up and deal with them.
I want to bring up the now worn-out "inflation vs. deflation" debate.
What would you rather hold your wealth in: something the government can pull 7.5Trillion units out-of-their-ass with a few keyboard strokes, or something that is extremely difficult and costly to mine, and has been continuously and universally cherished for some 4000+ years?
"trail writes:
Actually, I think his advice to the panel was pretty good."
I agree if that is the context. Same thing I tell people. Except I also tell people to splurge on cheap tricks from pretty little real estate agents.
Elvis - Now that you mention it...
Trickle down finally worked. You got trickled on.
~~~~
We got the whole outhouse ...
Now Can We Nationalize? .
look
i wouldnt cut the banksters out altogether (hahaha)
as the bank of the united states...
we would loan to them too!!!!!
but the message is clear
either you loan to businesses and municipalities and students etc...at competitive rates...or we will, the bank of the united states (the BUS)!
damnit, get on the BUS
Uncle Billy - please refrain from mentioning CR on the Gawker comment threads. I love that site for laughs, but the last thing we need over here is even more people who know just enough about economics to be dangerous coming over here to pollute the comment threads further.
It's been damn near intolerable lately as it is.
mmmmm. Magic Bus.........
In the previous thread, I suggested that in this bizarro world, perhaps housing was a good store of wealth.
Got a number of thoughtful comments back.
Let me flesh it more: as a long time renter, I'm seriously thinking of buying a home next summer and want some advice.
I do not think homes are cheap. Instead I think that if the USD were to collapse, my savings and ability to get credit would collapse as well. I could lose my job, etc.
Politically, it seems that keeping people in their homes is Job #1.
In an all out USD collapse, I seriously doubt that banks would forcible eject people from their homes. But I could imagine that as a renter, I would be unable to borrow to get a home.
What do you guys think? Could be facing a real "Buy now or be priced out forever moment?"
bank of the united states...
First we need to nationalize these banks. They can still do too much damage and will given the provocation of a real public bank.
Now Can We Nationalize?
God, I hope so. I've been beating that drum since about $300 billion TARP dollars ago.
I got glod. But it won't be that costly to mine if the workers of the world don't..."rise up, face [their] challenges and deal with them".
Shouldn't that be near-term rays of sunshine?
Sun is only up for a portion of the day....unless you follow it around in your corporate jet Ken...which you might.
Freudian slip, maybe.
Of course he will hoard cash. His first goal will be survival of his company.
And who would he lend to: Automakers? Light industry? Retailers? consumer product manufacturers? Other banks? Homebuilders?
This gets right to the heart of the problem with the Feds' "throwaway" program.. they can throw the money out the door, but they cannot control what happens to it after that.
Jim Rogers, CEO of Duke Energy (NYSE:DUK), dubbed the economic environment as uncharted waters but called for optimism in the face of adversity. Rogers said that one of Americas greatest strengths is its ability to rise up, face its challenges and deal with them. This may be the greatest economic challenge that our country has ever faced, he said.
Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, this isn't the Jim Rogers.
Again, one of his better interviews for those who haven't read it:
Exclusive Interview: Jim Rogers Predicts Bigger Financial Shocks Loom, Fueling a Malaise That May Last for Years
Now Can We Nationalize?
God, I hope so. I've been beating that drum since about $300 billion TARP dollars ago.
~~~
Myself as well ... the question is who can do more damage to we, the public.I say give it to the pols, at least we can vote them out of office.
Why do you think it would easier to forcibly evict a renter than foreclose a homeowner?
Ever been to Housing Court?
The whole world is shining shit and calling it gold.
The conversation starts with jobs and ends with jobs. The government can decree, loan , argue and hope but if the population is unemployed then all actions are irrelevant.
Even relatively successful hedge funds are getting clobbered with redemptions.
Fortress Halts Drawbridge Global Fund Withdrawals (Update3) - Bloomberg.com
"Fortress announced its first quarterly loss last month since going public in February 2007, joining rivals Blackstone Group LP and KKR & Co. LP in cutting the value of assets to match a global decline in prices. The fund had $8 billion as of Sept. 30, so the requested withdrawals amount to more than 40 percent of the money pool, according to Roger Smith, an analyst with Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran Caroni in New York.
Its tough to tell if theyve done anything wrong, said Smith, who has an in line or neutral rating on the company. The fund doesnt look to be a terrible performer relative to the industry, so Im not sure if this was based on performance alone. Its more symptomatic of what youre seeing in hedge funds across the board.
The fund had lost 12 percent since the beginning of the year, including a 10 percent drop in the third quarter, Smith said."
The stock market ignores the coming wave of hedge fund redemptions at its peril. The market may choose not to pay for them now. But it will pay later.
Where will all this hedge fund money go as it flows out? A lot will go into cash, bonds, gold, commodities or underground.
Very little will go back into the market -- other than stocks of the biggest, safest companies. Emerging markets will get murdered.
Why do you think it would easier to forcibly evict a renter than foreclose a homeowner?
`````
All depends on the state you are in. Generally it is much easier to evict a tenant.
Excuse my off-topic fascination with the homebuilders, but....
Now (after the story on Treasury plan for low interest rates for homebuyers) I understand why the homebuilders spiked as of late.
You don't suppose some insiders familiar with the matter have been buying before the news broke, do ya?
It's ridiculous that homebuilders stock prices are at double or triple their levels of 2000, or even September 2001...
yogi
yeah gold ok with that, i agree
but
consider this
during a great depression...you cant eat gold
goods go out of production because prices drop to below production costs
so dont put all eggs in one basket
buy now the basics you need to get thru
pay for a parcel of land in the country with cash...own it outright
a rototiller, seeds etc
buy a supply of the basics (think camping trip with the family...boy scouts etc)
and pray you can laugh with scorn at my suggestion in two years cause i was so wrong
i hope im wrong
Politically speaking, home owners are placed higher than renters. The political class has been speaking for the past year about the "foreclosure" crisis. This means to me that all things being equal, a renter gets screwed before the property owner.
To rephrase: is it time to become a property owner as a hedge against a USD collapse and benefit from the political goodwill?
OK. Not in New York though. Vermont does not permit eviction in Winter.
Downturn Spares Few Areas of U.S. - WSJ.com
Beige Book Shows Broad Weakness
WASHINGTON -- A Federal Reserve report Wednesday shows that economic activity across the nation has weakened even further, adding to this week's string of dismal financial news.
Since the Fed released its last beige book in mid-October, economic activity has softened further across all 12 of the nation's Federal Reserve districts, which include major cities such as New York, Cleveland, Richmond, Atlanta and Chicago, the latest report shows. (Read the full report.)
"Districts generally reported decreases in retail sales, and vehicle sales were down significantly in most Districts," said the beige book, which is based on ...
Fed's Beige Book Report:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/FOMC/BeigeBook/2008/20081203/fullreport20081203.pdf
mmckinl(Unrated) writes:
Now Can We Nationalize? .
mmckinl | 12.03.08 - 4:44 pm | #
LOL... I think your voter block is growing by the day with every new speech by a banker or fed gov'nor.
As a business owner I can tell first hand that banks do not lend. In my opinion a combination of them being broke and scared. All their valuation models have gone down the toilet. The banks are in survival mode and they let my business go down before offering or extending a credit line. I grew up in a free market society, this is no longer the case. There is no free market in the US, it is a socialized market that is subsidized by current and next generation tax payers money. The playing field is not level - only a few select have access to liquidity through the US government and the irony is, they don't pass it down to the companies and small businesses that actually create jobs.
Does this mean it's time to buy into the market for the ralley? Someone help me with this!
Defaults May Beat Great Depression, Junk Bonds Say (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Also, you might think that hedge funds' suspending redemptions would actually help the market in the short run, because the money will be returned to investors gradually over a year or two.
Not so.
Investors have more than one fear about hedge funds. They fear more market losses in risky strategies. They fear the lack of transparency. They fear counterparty risk. And they fear hedge fund insolvencies or people just running off with the money.
Probably, they also know huge regulation of hedge funds is coming and would rather not be part of it.
Every announcement of a redemption suspension triggers more redemption requests. Funds in suspension can keep managing the fund, but they have to dial risk and leverage way back. They are fiduciaries, and fiduciary duty rises in suspension.
If you are a GP and lose 10-20% after annnouncing a suspension, you can kiss your net worth goodbye.
rich
you are right
i was saying to mp yesterday
and barley today
that i had read and heard from a banker friend that the hedgefund redemptions this month are going to have a deep deep impact..
when combined with poor retail (holiday) sales
"It's ridiculous that homebuilders stock prices are at double or triple their levels of 2000, or even September 2001...
ShortCourage"
Don't worry. These HB stocks have had mini rallies for the last 3 years. The HBers do not have any reason to exist over the next 3 years as they cannt compete on price with foreclosures. Additionally, the cost of their liabilities continue to increase as the land market continues its collapse and high cancellation rates prolong their holding of built (and depreciating) inventory. Finally, their basic expenses (salaries) suck away any money they make.
Shnaps, it doesn't feel anything like a drudge-bomb. My intention was to cross fertilize a little. There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here. The little knowledge = danger thing, well, aren't you forgetting something?
Respect your comment, but don't agree with it.
Anyone here who came over from "that site that shall not be named" anyway?
Now Can We Nationalize?
So the same people can screw us over except with legal authority?
There's nobody that you can point to as the good guy right now. Nobody has demonstrated any sense or ability to set things right so far.
Why elevate the legal force available to failed institutions, failed methodologies, and failed ideologies?
Sounds like people have a death wish to me...
Bruce,
Most of the public companies that are prime credit default candidates are over-leveraged small-caps. There's a ton of them in tech.
So, the default rate for this segment would be even greater than for companies as a whole. Yet, right now, the forward P/E of the Russell 2000 Index, based on crazily inflated earnings estimates for 2009, is about 30.
In other words, the market is betting small-cap stocks will do amazingly well even if many over-leveraged small-caps default on their debts.
Must be a lot of TARP out there.
Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, this isn't the Jim Rogers
Oh, clearly not.
Mr Rogers (of Duke) should have figured out this "rise up in the face of adversity" several years ago as the Greenspan converted the economy from honesty to dishonesty.
I'm just plumb worn out from waiting for anybody else to get a clue. This year and last, I was interviewing potential employees and the resumes are a joke, sometimes 15 pages long with cool graphics and every buzzword known to man.
Hype is everything, value is nothing.
I'm off to play pool and leer at young, lithe women. Hard to do in Boise, true, but there's a few of them about.
"To rephrase: is it time to become a property owner as a hedge against a USD collapse and benefit from the political goodwill?
Mr. Beach | 12.03.08 - 4:56 pm | # "
Mr. Beach, apparently nobody knows. But I've had the same thoughts for next year if local prices continue to lower. It would be hedge against hyperinflation, whether caused by an outright USD collapse or something else.
But I can't tell you these thoughts are based on anything but my own fears.
Elvis, yes, true what you say about the homebuildres. But those facts have been true for 1-2 years now. It's really amazing how they levitate. Equally amazing that none of the big ones have folded.
OMG I am so scared. I just got laid off and I came from Gawker over here to ask what should I do?
I have three mortgages and I bought a house in Miami that is underwater and I can't pay of them mortgages and if I get evivated I will have to go live with my mom.
I also am afraid of turtles so I cannot live in Miami.
I was not so smart and I maybe might become homeless.
I am afraid of turtles!
"Lewis recommended a conservative strategy of hoarding cash and capital and waiting for the storm to pass."
First, I admit my knowledge of macroeconomics is rudimentary at best and non-existent at worst.
But my speculation for a few months now is that the hoarding of all this cash the government is dumping on these financial companies is what's causing some (as of yet) minor deflation. Since there is little lending, prices must come down to spur demand.
What worries me is that once there's any reasonable sign of an economic recovery (hey I can be optimistic, right?), they'll take all this money they've been hoarding for years and just dump it on the economy in the form of loans. This will spur massive inflation.
I'd be happy to listen to anyone that can explain to me why I'm wrong since I'm sure I am.
Why elevate the legal force available to failed institutions, failed methodologies, and failed ideologies?
You talking about the banks or what? Sounds like the banks.
"Elvis, yes, true what you say about the homebuildres. But those facts have been true for 1-2 years now. It's really amazing how they levitate. Equally amazing that none of the big ones have folded.
ShortCourage"
It is like the horror movies when somebody you thought was dead keeps coming back. However, this isn't the movies. Homebuilders will die as soon as or before their carryback tax refunds are gone. Count on it.
Times are really tough, and we dont see any short-term rays of sunshine.
He didn't find any mustard seeds?!?
I think gold will do pretty well in the future because so many people in the world believe it is a constant store of value. This is true across continents, cultures and human history.
But in a way, I think you are right that gold won't be the "real money" of the future because of its lack of utility.
I think the real global money of the future will be...well, Mad Max had it right.
Oil
But my speculation for a few months now is that the hoarding of all this cash the government is dumping on these financial companies is what's causing some (as of yet) minor deflation. Since there is little lending, prices must come down to spur demand.
What worries me is that once there's any reasonable sign of an economic recovery (hey I can be optimistic, right?), they'll take all this money they've been hoarding for years and just dump it on the economy in the form of loans. This will spur massive inflation.
I'd be happy to listen to anyone that can explain to me why I'm wrong since I'm sure I am.
That's a legitimate concern.
That attempts to combat deflation will simply lead to an inflationary disaster once the economy and lending recover.
If you take a situation where you already have 10%-12% unemployment and then layer a late 70s type mess over things you could be looking at an apocalypse. Good luck getting anyone to crank rates up to 20% to save the dollar. The political will won't be there to do that.
A collapse of the dollar would probably lead to a nation that we wouldn't recognize.
At least the US survived the Great Depression.
It's worth considering that if we screw things up badly enough we won't be so lucky this time.
Comrade Jeremy,
You are not wrong.
You are like Tanta. Prescient.
Let's bring all those guys back from Iraq who were trained in martial arts and put them to work...
Uh oh, no jobs here for them.
OK, we can just let them hang around grumbling and thinking about what to do with their extra time and all that training while watching the soup lines get longer and the CEO's get richer.
This is gonna end badly.
"I think the real global money of the future will be...well, Mad Max had it right.
Oil
rich"
I thought Alpo was the money of the future in Mad Max.
Technicals from Mizuho!
Video - CNBC.com
And a reprise about the monster--appropriate.
Video - CNBC.com
Layer upon layer of lies, misinformation and therefore the formation of parallel markets, universes of money.
There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here.
That's coz they have moderators that only allow the wittiest comments through. If their unfiltered readers came here and started posting here, believe me, you'd rather read pure Jas Jain.
Oh, and look about 5 comments up..
Ibod Catooga writes: OMG I am so scared. I just got laid off and I came from Gawker over here to ask what should I do?...I am afraid of turtles!
Uncle Billy 0
Shnaps 1
dryfly writes:
Why elevate the legal force available to failed institutions, failed methodologies, and failed ideologies?
You talking about the banks or what? Sounds like the banks.
dryfly | 12.03.08 - 5:04 pm | #
It doesn't matter. All of these guys/gals are in bed together. See Oligarchy.
If you think there are many on this board who don't care about one another, you should look at goobermints, yes I said goobermints, at all levels, as well as many heads of corps/companies.
The "Greed is Good" memo changed this country forever.
I am not sure we can win it back. It will be hard without serious bloodhsed as Jas writes, or a very, very MASSIVE movement among the rank and file, like say, everyone making less than 100K not paying taxes.
I just don't know.
The challenge is to stay a few steps and a few months ahead of the morons at the Fed and Congress.
What does the USD collapse against?
Bernanke has already said that he will buy at the long end of yield curve.
We made it through 18% rates. We are still so rich.
Conrade Jeremy - that's entirely plausible. did you see my comment in the earlier thread on auto sales?
mock,
ooooh yeah we get same store retail numbers tomorrow, don't we? THAT will be interesting, how the hard(er) numbers compare with ShopperTrak estimates...though they revised their estimates
Black Friday: +3% YoY sales
Friday-Sunday: +0.9% YoY sales
Most striking: Additionally, ShopperTraks Retail Traffic Index (SRTI) reported total U.S. weekend foot traffic fell 19.3 percent for the same three-day period in 2007
Page not found | ShopperTrak
Shnaps writes:
There is, surprisingly more tanta style wit over there currently than there is here.
That's coz they have moderators that only allow the wittiest comments through.
Forget, wittiness or some of the zaniness here. What we need are real solutions that will move this country's economy forward in a sustainable method. I don't care if Bubbles the clown and his monkey have the answer as long as it works.
What we have now is not an answer and it is def. not working!
Now Can We Nationalize?
So the same people can screw us over except with legal authority?
~~~~
At least they will get the credit system moving again ... all we are doing now is feathering the bankers nest while the economy burns to the ground. The pols need that tax revenue, they will pump the economy up.
The Fed could stop the slide in home prices by
a) buy bulldozers and clear out all of the excess supply. (Have GM build the demolition equipment)
b) hire homebuilders to un-build the excess supply
c) lease southern cal to India/China
Not sure how you can halt the slide in price without reducing the inventory
What we have now is not an answer and it is def. not working!
Sounds like somebody needs to borrow more! Let's turn that frown upside down:)
Thanks ac.
rich: That's the nicest thing someone has said to me in a while, but I'm afraid Wayne Campbell had it right: "I'm not worthy."
Love Nicole Elliot's accent..
The "Greed is Good" memo changed this country forever.
We agree on that for sure.
BTW - I'm not in favor of bank nationalization unless we go 'Scandinavian' on them - similar to prepack BK but rougher on existing mgmt - burn them all, wipe out equity, clip bond holders... then recapitalize and finally reprivatize.
Scandi's did exactly that in the 90s w/ their bank failures - taught them all what moral hazard was about WITHOUT destroying their countries in the process.
Our fricking plutocrats all have us trapped in 'MAD' - mutually assured destruction - pay us or we all blow up. There are other options - Sweden, Norway & Finland can show us how it is done.
"Oh, and look about 5 comments up.."
Eh, didn't sink the thread. Keep your point though. You seem more interested in "winning" today than talking so, maybe some other time.
Shnaps, are you Misean in disguise? You just sounded a lot like him there.
Didn't see your post Shnapps, but it makes sense to me. Hope we're wrong.
Home loans at 4.5% ?
That will kill sales for a while, until they either confirm it and put the measure in place or deny it.
Personally I think they are doing anything to keep this ship from sinking.
Will no won answer my question? What to do?
666 visitarotors online!
This place is of Satan!
Shnaps, are you Misean in disguise?
Oh, GOD no. The only gold I own is in my #19 mandibular molar.
Personally I think they are doing anything to keep this ship from sinking.
"Everybody to the bow immediately. It is rising because we do not have enough weight. This is your captain speaking."
In 2005 my uncle (88) in Sacramento died. He had thousands of twistie ties in kitchen drawers and $1.6M in the bank...
OOPS ... treasury now says home loan interest rate plan was not authorized !
Give money to the little guy?
Wait just a minute!
Another day, another confidence booster from Paulson ...
Has he grown horns yet?
mmckinl you have a link for "treasury now says home loan interest rate plan was not authorized !"?
TIA
"I also am afraid of turtles so I cannot live in Miami"
Dear IShoodaNode,
Turtles are okay in Florida as long as they're properly marked.
http://www.realmeme.com/roller/images/florida/hollywoodbeach3.jpg
Trust me.
I'm only dangerous when I'm hungry!
I kid you not, Citibank is buying an infrastructure company in Spain for ~$10 Billion. What does that have to do with increasing lending? Nada, as far as I can tell.
How much bailout money did Citi just get? $20 billion immediately and $300 billion in guarantees?
This is BS. Citi is acquiring the company, Itinere Infraestructuras, through its infrastructure fund,
Citi Infrastructure Partners.
Citigroup acquires Spain’s Itinere Infraestructuras - KHL Group
Citi knows Obamanomics includes MASSIVE infrastructure spending and wants to make money in Spain also. I believe the global mantra will be build more and TVA style jobs for everyone....yeahhhhhh!
Hmm... I wonder if Mr. Lewis is at all aware that two of the corps. that he recently purchased (LaSalle and Merrill) are defendants in my racketeering action.
I suppose the more appropriate and direct question would be - is there any chance that he cares?
Jeremy (and Rich, whose opinions I respect),
You are wrong.
The banks have vast quantities of bad assets that are currently off their balance sheets in QSPEs, SIVs etc.
FASB rules stipulate that these have to brought back on to their balance sheets. When they do, these large amounts of capital they are sitting on (from the TARP) will be wiped out many times over.
They won't have much left to lend out. This is why Bernanke isn't worried about hyperinflation. To the extent that the banks do lend loosely causing inflation (not the hyper variety) Bernanke will mop up the liquidity by raising rates.